Episode Transcript
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Kurt Wilkin (00:00):
After that, com
went belly up and I had a new
baby at home and a relativelynew wife who was no longer
working at Ernst Young.
So I had to find ways to makeends meet.
And that's how mostentrepreneurs are born honestly,
out of some trial ortribulation, that they need to
find a way to make ends meet,and that was my story as well.
(00:22):
I started a consulting firmbecause I needed to feed my baby
and feed my wife.
Daniel Koo (00:28):
Hey, welcome back to
my Perfect Path.
For those of you who are new,I'm your host, daniel Koo, and I
welcome you to season two.
For me, at large, pivotalmoments of my life, such as
applying to new colleges,applying to new jobs or
determining what next careermove is right for me I spent
time researching and findingmentorship to determine what was
(00:49):
the best path for me.
I knew that this struggle wasnot isolated to me.
Everyone struggles with this,simply because we cannot predict
the future.
However, I found something thatis second best to predicting
the future it's learning fromthose ahead of our career and
from those who've seen more andexperienced more.
After all, there are not thatmany problems that have not been
solved yet.
(01:10):
If you've ever felt unsureabout your next career move,
you're in the right place.
How do you go from being anaccountant at Ernst Young to
(01:33):
exiting a company that you builtfrom scratch with a newborn at
home and end up investing over200 startups over your career?
Well, for today's guest, kurtWilkin, it all happened.
Part of his strength findingpath.
Kurt's the co-founder of HireBetter and managing partner at
Bee Cave Capital.
He spent his career helpingentrepreneurs grow, not just
with funding, but with honestadvice, hard-earned experience
(01:53):
and a deep belief that the rightpeople can make all the
difference.
In our conversation, he shareshow he went from being a CPA to
building a multi-million dollarcompany, what he's learned from
investing in hundreds offounders, and why self-awareness
might be the most powerful toolin any leader's toolbox.
I think you're really going toenjoy this one.
(02:17):
Let's get into it.
Hi, kurt, welcome to my PerfectPath.
We're thrilled to have you here.
You're already very used to thepodcasting format, so I'm kind
of excited for this one.
I think it's going to be prettysmooth and I'm really excited
to listen to all of yourinsights and inspiration.
Kurt Wilkin (02:31):
Awesome.
Hey, daniel, thanks so much forhaving me, man, I love what
you're doing.
Daniel Koo (02:34):
Just to introduce
Kurt a little bit.
Kurt is an entrepreneur coachmentor with over 25 years of
experience.
He serves as the co-founder ofHire Better and the managing
partner of BK Capital,specializing in advising in high
growth companies.
His journey includessignificant challenges like the
dot-com bubble burst, personalhardships and things like that,
(02:57):
which kind of gave Kurt a lot ofunderstanding about
entrepreneurship and how tosurvive those things.
Just to give the listeners alittle bit of context on what
your background looks like,could you tell us a little bit
about how you grew up, where yougrew up and things like that?
Kurt Wilkin (03:13):
Sure, I grew up in
South Louisiana, just outside of
New Orleans, and I ended upgoing to the University of
Arkansas and I was born in and Ilive in Texas.
So people ask me where myaccent is.
Why do I sound like a Cajun?
I tell them because I've gotall those three things all
wrapped into one a Kunas, aRedneck and a Hillbilly.
(03:34):
All wrapped into one beautifulpackage.
But I grew up in a small town,little bedroom community of New
Orleans and I'll say lowermiddle class.
We didn't have a lot of money.
My mom and dad both worked andmy dad was a failed entrepreneur
so he gave me a lot of powerfullessons on what things not to
do as an entrepreneur.
And I was the youngest of four,so I got a lot of hand-me-downs
(03:57):
from my siblings and itdefinitely wasn't a posh
upbringing but I never reallyfelt poor, I just felt like
there's a lot of things I wantedthat I didn't get.
But you know that's part oflife.
Daniel Koo (04:12):
Now that we know
where you came from, could you
walk us through your day-to-dayand what your day-to-day looks
like?
Daniel?
Kurt Wilkin (04:18):
if you don't mind,
I'll give you two answers to
that question.
The first is what it lookedlike as an entrepreneur going
through the middle of it, andthen the second is what my
day-to-day looks like today,which is different.
I still work hard, but I have aCEO leading Hire Better and
I've got a team that works withme.
So my day is just different.
So I'll start with probably mymost famous, if you will,
(04:41):
entrepreneurial journey.
That was the Controller Group,and I started it with a partner
and we worked 24 seven, and thebeautiful thing about being an
entrepreneur, especially as youhave success, is you have
freedom to go do things like goon vacations or have flexibility
with your time.
The downside is you're prettymuch on.
Whenever you're on vacation,you have to be able to respond
(05:03):
to clients or customers orwhatever the case may be.
So, yeah, we worked a lot oflate nights and midnight phone
calls with Brett, my partner,talking about marketing or sales
or finance, whatever it was,and that's just part of the
journey.
Being an entrepreneur is notfor everybody.
You're going to have to beready to work your ass off.
You're also going to have to beready to get knocked on the
(05:26):
floor and knocked on your assand you have to be able to get
back up.
That's probably the number oneattribute that successful
entrepreneurs have is just thegrit to be able to get back and
fight and live another day.
So my day-to-day now so I stillam majority shareholder and
chairman of Hire Better, whichis a recruiting firm that
focuses on entrepreneurs andhelping them build next level
(05:49):
teams.
I also, as Daniel said, I'mmanaging partner of Bee Cave
Capital, which is a small angelinvesting group with me and two
of my partners, and we invest inearly stage entrepreneurs with
me and my two of my partners,and we invest in early stage
entrepreneurs and typically weactually we have about 200
investments over the course ofthe last 20 years.
(06:11):
So we've been pretty active attimes, and there's a couple of
companies that I'm on the boardof, and then there's a lot of
companies that I just help andadvise and I'm just there for,
and so my day can be anythingfrom if Daniel's an entrepreneur
I've invested in.
I can help Daniel meet a reallyinteresting person that could
help his company, or maybereviewing some financial
(06:33):
statements on his behalf orintroducing him to investors
Lots of different things.
I do have a couple of companiesthat I'm very heavily involved
in right now, which almost feelslike I'm an entrepreneur again,
because I'm really helping, ina hands-on way, a couple of the
entrepreneurs that we'veinvested in.
Daniel Koo (06:50):
Yeah, it seems like
you really enjoy this space and
maybe you want to get back intoit again, perhaps.
Kurt Wilkin (06:56):
No, not a chance.
So I will say this I believethat capitalism can be and is a
change agent for good, so muchbetter than any nonprofit you
could have, any governmentalentity whatever, because if you
can make money doing good, youcan make the world a better
place, and I believe thatentrepreneurs are the tip of the
spear.
If I can support and help goodpeople build great companies,
(07:18):
then they're going to make animpact with their company, with
their team that they've builtand, ultimately, when they have
the financial means to help inother ways too, whether it's
their time and treasuresthemselves, or maybe the ability
to donate to those charitableorganizations I mentioned before
.
Daniel Koo (07:36):
I really like how
you have a very positive
perspective on businesses andentrepreneurship.
I think that's a very inspiringforce for a lot of the people
that may be listening to thisepisode, and personally I'm
inspired by you and your energy,so I'm really excited to kind
of dig into this.
(07:56):
So today we named our episodemy Strength Finding Path.
I kind of want to talk aboutyour book here as well.
I think that title really suitsyour book and how you're kind
of approaching hiring and howyou're approaching people in the
business.
Kurt Wilkin (08:13):
Sure.
So you want to focus onstrength finding first.
Yes, yeah, I think the mainreason that you've gravitated
towards that is because I'vefound I was going to say early
on but probably not early onsome point in my entrepreneurial
journey that there are certainthings that I'm really really
good at and there are certainthings that I really really suck
at.
And it was eye-opening for mewhen I was able to come to grips
(08:36):
with that and I realized I nolonger have to make excuses for
the things that I struggle withand I can just lean into what
I'm really good at.
You know, there's a school ofthought out there, daniel, that
says you know, focus on yourweaknesses and try to make them
better so you're morewell-rounded.
I say, screw that.
I think it's.
Let's focus on our strength andbe really, really good at what
you're what you're good at,because you're going to have
(08:59):
more energy around that, you'regoing to feel more empowered,
you're going to be passionateabout it.
And then, candidly, there'speople that can do things that
you suck at.
They can do it better, cheaper,quicker, more efficiently, all
the stuff.
And so that was a bigeye-opener for me.
It really gave me license to bemyself when I realized that I
(09:19):
could be good at that.
I was good at those things, andit's okay not to be good at the
details or the that.
I was good at those things andit's okay not to be good at the
details or the finances or thenumbers or whatever it is for
you that you're not great at.
Daniel Koo (09:31):
I think that's
actually a perfect introduction
to how you ended up quittingyour first job as an accountant.
Could you tell me a little bitabout that and how you decided
to go away from accounting?
Kurt Wilkin (09:44):
Yeah.
So I'm probably like a lot ofyour listeners.
I took courses in collegebecause of whatever maybe in my
case my dad suggested it, ormaybe there's a pretty girl in
the class, or whatever the casemay be.
We end up with majors andclasses that we just end up with
and at some point we get in thereal world and we decide what
(10:04):
we really like and what we'regood at and how we can make
money.
And I passed the CPA exam.
I worked for Ernst Young.
I mean, on paper I look like areally badass accountant and the
reality is I'm a very badaccountant because, honestly,
just the details don't matter tome that much.
And to be a good accountant youhave to be pretty darn good at
(10:25):
the details and love it.
And in those firms like that,as you progress and grow in your
career, you get more time withthe client and you become more
of a leader and a manager andmore strategic and less in the
details.
But to grow to that levelyou've got to be really good at
the details.
So I like to say I would havebeen a great partner at Ernst
Young but I never would havegotten there because I, just
(10:47):
again, was not a greataccountant.
So the question is how did youget the job at Ernst Young if
you're not a great accountant?
And trust me, I can look goodat selling myself or whatever.
So after I left there, I went toa dot-com and I got the
entrepreneurial bug.
I had it before.
I started a little company incollege and I had the gene,
(11:09):
especially since my dad and mybrother were both entrepreneurs
as well.
But I rediscovered it andthat's where I launched my
entrepreneurial career.
After that dot-com went bellyup and I had a new baby at home
and a relatively new wife whowas no longer working at Ernst
Young.
So I had to find ways to makeends meet.
(11:30):
And that's how mostentrepreneurs are born honestly,
out of some trial ortribulation, that they need to
find a way to make ends meet,and that was my story as well.
I started a consulting firmbecause I needed to feed my baby
and feed my wife.
Daniel Koo (11:47):
I do want to touch
on that in a little bit as well.
I want to go back to how youkind of recognized that your
talents were somewhere else.
What were some telltale signsabout you know, maybe I
shouldn't be in this field.
Kurt Wilkin (12:02):
That's a great
question, daniel.
I don't know that I really knewit at that time.
I had feelings, but I didn'treally appreciate how to put it
all together until later, atErnst Young and even at the
dot-com where I was the leadaccountant, I would much rather
spend time with the people andlearning their jobs and how I
(12:23):
could help them with their jobs,more so than the numbers side.
So I probably had thatinclination, but I didn't really
know what that meant.
When I started consulting, Iwas the main person doing the
work, so I got to see firsthandhow much I was, how I enjoyed it
and honestly, I could havebrought people in much smarter
(12:44):
than me and could have done thejob a lot faster than me even
then.
But that was the big eye-openerfor me was when I was able to
bring in people because the jobwas getting to be so big.
I could bring other people inand pay them and make money from
the difference between what Icharged the client and I could
have the great strategicconversations with the client
(13:05):
and help them find the rightresources to solve their
challenge.
So that was early on.
It was not until later that Ireally had that epiphany.
Daniel Koo (13:16):
As you started this
consulting company, how did you
decide on, I guess, what tomodel your business on?
So was were you inspired by adifferent company, or did you
decide on, I guess, what tomodel your business on?
So, were you inspired by adifferent company, or did you
have a mentor?
What was kind of like theideation there?
Kurt Wilkin (13:32):
Good question.
It started out of desperationand so I just would do whatever
it took to find accountingrelated, because I was a CPA
from Ernst Young, so I had thatto lean on.
So that's how it started.
As it became a real firm, wedid try to pattern ourselves
after the big accounting firms,but we didn't want to do.
(13:52):
I don't want to bore yourlisteners too much, but there's
audit and tax are the main twoways that those firms make money
.
But in order to do the auditsor taxes, the books and records
have to be in good order, andthe companies that they do the
audits and taxes for aren'tnecessarily always great at
getting them prepared for theErnst Youngs of the world to
(14:14):
come in.
And so my idea was I will helpthem get ready.
So me and my team will do allthe work necessary to get you
ready for Ernst Young.
We'll do all the work necessaryto get you ready for Ernst
Young, and Ernst Young will loveus because you're ready and
they don't have to spend a lotof cycles with unbillable work
to try to help you.
And so that was my idea andeveryone thought it was a dumb
(14:36):
idea and it kind of was.
But then a couple of key thingshappened that we took advantage
of.
The biggest one was acongressional act called
Sarbanes-Oxley.
Your listeners are probably tooyoung to know about it, but it
was the congressional act thatwas passed after the Enron
scandal.
Many of you guys have heard ofEnron scandal, which was
basically a company that waspropped up with a bunch of
(14:58):
bullshit transactions to try tomake it look bigger than it was,
and they pilfered a lot ofmoney from shareholders.
And so Sarbanes and Oxley weretwo senators that passed an act
that said all companies, allpublic companies, have to have
their internal controls auditedevery year, and we were one of
the early adopters.
My partners were much smarterthan me and they knew how to do
(15:22):
that work.
I was good at selling it andthey were good at doing it and
managing it.
Daniel Koo (15:26):
So this happened at
the same time you were raising a
family.
I think that must've beenreally tough.
I recall you mentioning it kindof being a force of survival,
Like it wasn't something thatyou could afford to not succeed.
How was that motivation for you?
And like do you think that'snecessary for an entrepreneur to
(15:48):
go through in order to succeed?
Kurt Wilkin (15:51):
Another good
question, daniel.
For me it was about survival atfirst, and by now we've got two
kids a two-and-a-half-year-oldand a newborn and I had to find
a way to make it work, becauseI'm you know, because I'm a man
and I want to provide right, Imean that kind of thing.
And so that's where it started,and I had a fear of failure,
(16:17):
and I think that was a positiveat the time because, again,
failure couldn't be an optionfor me.
And then, looking back, however, once we got through the
survival period, we were growingrapidly and that's where it
became a whole differentchallenge.
It was no longer about survival, it was okay.
Well, how can I take advantageof this and build a great firm?
And I didn't want it to be alifestyle firm.
(16:40):
I made the decision I wanted togrow and make it as big as we
could at the time, versus justhaving a really casual existence
, and hindsight I'm not reallysure what the right answer could
have been or should have been,to be honest.
I mean we ended up selling andmaking a lot of money and I was
able to do investing and suchlater.
(17:00):
But I've seen a lot of peoplewith lifestyle businesses that
have a really nice life and theyseem to be doing well too.
So really, it's differentdecisions you can, different
paths you can go down for sure,and right now I'm kind of doing
both.
I'm doing work that I love todo and I'm getting to spend time
(17:22):
with clients and people that Ienjoy being around and doing
passionate work that I thinkdoes make a difference in the
world, and I'm able to make alittle bit of money to have a
decent lifestyle and I'm havingfun.
Daniel Koo (17:37):
We can actually talk
a little bit about your book at
this point.
We can actually talk a littlebit about your book at this
point.
I think your book is also aboutfinding people in your company
that I guess kind of like legacyemployees right, that
previously were a great fit forthe role but maybe no longer is,
and there's the challenge ofeither finding them a better fit
(18:01):
in the company or finding themanother job.
Even so, we can talk a littlebit about where you learned
these things and what were someof the big lessons that you took
away and why you decided towrite the book.
Kurt Wilkin (18:14):
Sure, I'll give you
a background on the book, a
little bit of the conceptsaround the book, and then get to
your question about thecharacters.
So the book is called who's yourMike and the subtitle is A no
Bullshit Guide to the PeopleYou'll Meet on your
Entrepreneurial Journey.
And I'll tell you about thetitle and who Mike is in a
second.
But basically there's foursections.
(18:35):
The first section is legacyemployees that you're talking
about that have been with yourorganization, with you as an
entrepreneur, for years perhaps,and there's different versions
of those legacy characters.
And then there's a what I callan intermission.
That's advice on what to dowith these folks and whether you
have somebody that you'veoutgrown or something.
And then I've got threechapters about what I call the
(18:58):
silver bullet.
It's a hire that you bring infrom the outside to save the day
, make everything great, whichwe all entrepreneurs always
crave at some point.
And then there's anintermission.
And then I have a chapteraround building a great culture
and about the concept of humanresources and all the broken
parts about that.
And then intermission.
Then I've got a chapter aboutfinding somebody who compliments
(19:20):
you and your skillset thatreally helps you.
So in my case, as I said before, I'm not a detailed person.
Let me bring in somebody that'sreally good at the details to
partner with.
So that's the layout of thebook.
So the question is, who is Mike?
And so Mike is in the book.
I'll describe him, but it'sreally a character we all see
all the time as entrepreneurs.
(19:41):
Mike is a good friend that youstarted your business with, or
maybe you went to college withhim.
You bring him on to help youwith the back office things,
things that you're not reallygood at, so you can build the
product or sell the service orwhatever it is.
And when you become a realcompany, he quits his job and
now joins you and you make himyour accountant.
And then, a couple of yearslater, you're growing and he's
(20:01):
working a hundred hours a weekand you reward him with a new
title Now he's the controller.
And a few years later or monthslater, you're now a real, real
company and you're doing thingsyou've never done before.
And Mike's right there with you, working nights and weekends,
working his ass off, and youmake him your CFO, your chief
financial officer, and then youlook up and you're doing $10 or
(20:25):
$20 million in revenue andyou've got legit challenges now
and Mike has no idea what he'sdoing.
He's in over his head, he'sswirling because he's trying to
make it up and try to please youbecause you count on him.
So my question is who's yourMike?
Every entrepreneur either has aMike, has hat or will have a
Mike.
The only way to avoid them isjust simply not to grow, and so
(20:47):
part of the intermission is well, what do you do with Mike?
What skills does Mike have?
He's not a bad person.
He does good work in certainthings, but is he your CFO of
the future?
And so you asked me how I knowall this is because I've seen it
with hundreds of clients andfriends and my own companies
over the years.
It's just every single companyhas employees that are really,
(21:11):
really talented and reallydedicated.
You've simply outgrown.
Daniel Koo (21:15):
I see, did you
mainly learn this during the
time that you were anentrepreneur, or was it kind of
afterwards, where you'reinterfacing with a lot of CEOs
and you're talking to leadership?
Kurt Wilkin (21:28):
Yeah, definitely
along the way.
Most of the stories in the bookcome from my time at Hire
Better, because I'm workingspecifically with entrepreneurs
and just hearing the samestories over and over again
entrepreneurs and just hearingthe same stories over and over
again.
My impetus to writing it wasbecause I felt like these
(21:48):
stories needed to be told andpeople needed to hear them,
because people hear my storiesor stories from my clients that
are in the book and they can seethemselves in the story and
they can make their owndecisions about their own people
based on what did Kurt do orwhat did Daniel do.
So it's all a bunch of storiesand it's just powerful because I
(22:08):
think we all learn from storiesand the stories of others.
Daniel Koo (22:16):
Yeah, I read almost
half of it before coming to this
episode and the writing isactually really really easy to
understand.
I think the way that you wroteit is really nice.
It's not like other businessbooks, as the book mentions, and
you have these characters thatare very easy to visualize and
it's maybe easy to even spotthem within your company.
(22:37):
I think the way that youcharacterize them.
So I think, if anyone'sinterested, the book is who's
your Mike?
By Kurt Wilkin I think youshould go and download the book.
There's also an Audibleaudiobook and did you narrate it
yourself.
Kurt Wilkin (22:53):
I did.
I did so, which is harder thanit sounds to do, but, yeah,
you'll hear my voice,fortunately or unfortunately.
Fortunately or unfortunately.
Daniel Koo (23:00):
No, I think, to kind
of transition.
I do want to talk about yourexperience selling the TCG
company, and I know you sold itto Tatum and there were some
unique circumstances there whereyou were in the board but you
were also the CEO and I want toknow maybe some detailed stories
(23:25):
or anything like that orsomething that you learned from
there.
Kurt Wilkin (23:27):
So, yes, it was
really my first true
entrepreneurial endeavor, andsame with my partners, and we
were approached by Tatum to buyus, and we were flattered at
first and then, the more we gotto know them, the more we
realized this is probablylegitimate and probably a good
fit.
And we did sell it.
(23:48):
We took some cash, we also gotequity in Tatum and we also got
a note, so it's called a sellerfinance.
So we financed some of itourselves.
So they basically borrowedmoney from us to buy it.
And that's not unusual to havethose kind of three levers a
little bit of cash, a little bitof equity, a little bit of note
(24:08):
.
But part of the deal wasbecause we wanted to have a say
in how the company was run and,especially since they owed us
money, we had a board seat aslong as the company owed us
money, which, again, is not toounusual.
Now, I don't know how much youraudience knows about boards
(24:28):
We've all heard about them butboards are basically the
governance of the company and,in theory, the board hires and
fires the CEO and then the CEOhires and fires everyone else
below that.
Well, I'm an employee of thecompany, so I report to the CEO
and I'm on the board and so intheory, he reports to me.
(24:50):
So that creates some prettyinteresting situations,
especially when most boards areconstructed from people that
have differing interests.
So like, if you go to, you knowwhatever company you follow,
that's a public company.
They've got a board of let'scall it, six or eight people.
Three or four of them areinvestors who have an interest
(25:12):
because they're investors.
They represent a group.
Two or three of them might justbe friends of the CEO.
They somehow they know the CEO,they somehow have an experience
in the space.
In the industry.
There may be an employee, theremay be a customer, there's any
number of people, but they allhave their own interests in the
company.
You know a shareholder mightwant to.
(25:33):
They've got a fund that's beenaround for 10 years.
They want to sell the companyas soon as possible.
The CEO wants to maximize hisreturn.
The employee wants to, you know, maximize their level of pay.
You know, whatever, there's anynumber of things that are across
the board, and this one was nodifferent.
So it's dysfunctional by nature.
All boards are dysfunctional,not just this one, and so you
(25:56):
can imagine an interestingdynamic when I didn't really
make as I like to tell people.
It wasn't private jet moneywhere I can go and just spend
anything, but I had enough whereI didn't really need the job,
if that makes sense.
And so the poor CEO is managingme, who doesn't really need the
job, and so I can speak and I'mrespectful, but I can speak
(26:20):
what I see, versus have to sayyes to my boss and yeah.
So that created some prettyunique situations and the louder
I got, the more the interest inpaying off the loan became.
And it wasn't by intent, butthat's just what happened.
So, basically, they found a wayto pay off the loan and I
sailed off into the sunset.
Daniel Koo (26:41):
That's actually
interesting.
I, um, I would have imaginedwhen you sold the company you're
set for life or or at leastsomething like that, like you
don't have to be, uh, tied tothe job anymore, right?
Um, and I know you mentionedthat you faced like, uh, like
two years of hardship, and it'shard for me to imagine where
(27:02):
you're set financially in a waythat you don't have to depend on
a job.
But there are other things thatare making your life really
difficult.
Kurt Wilkin (27:13):
Yeah, so in your
specific example, I was there
for a couple of years and I wastrying to make it.
I have a passion for what I doand I wanted to make it great.
So we wanted to make this newcompany great.
We had some headwinds.
We had the economy in 2008 and2009 were really, really
challenging for the world and sothat was part of our challenge.
(27:35):
But once I realized that I wasbeating my head against the wall
, it was time to go.
And around that same time, Ihad you can imagine my
proverbial baby.
My company was now beingdismantled and I was being kind
of put out to pasture and bothmy parents passed.
(28:01):
And talk about a really, reallychallenging time in your life
when both your parents passedTwo different instances.
They both had cancer.
There's a long story there, andI did spend some time in the
desert Like, what am I doing?
How can I make an impact in theworld?
You know all the things.
In fact, when I left Tatum, Ifired off a Jerry Maguire letter
if you're familiar with theJerry Maguire movie and Show Me
the Money.
You know basically, hey, we'regoing to, I'm going to change
the world and here's what I'mgoing to do and I still believe
(28:24):
a lot of that stuff.
But, um, your, your point ismore financially, do I need to
work?
I probably could have lived ina very low lifestyle or whatever
, and that could have lasted meforever if I wanted it to.
Um and um, I don't think I madethe wrong decision, but I did
(28:44):
continue working somewhat, butnot because of the money so much
as I was 40 years old and I'mnot a guy that's going to go
play golf for you know, for daysat a time.
I wanted to continue to make animpact, and so that's what I
decided to do is continue tomake an impact.
I try to live a little morewith a flexible schedule where I
get to enjoy my time and enjoymy kids and my family, but I'm
(29:10):
not a guy that's just going togo, especially at 40, sit on the
beach and play golf all thetime.
You drive yourself crazy.
If you have some people can doit, I can't do it.
Daniel Koo (29:22):
Yeah, I think that's
exactly the energy.
Maybe that got you througheverything before and got you to
where you are right now.
So I think that's also maybelike an attitude thing where
money isn't everything andretirement isn't everything.
I think that's also importantfor us to know.
These days we have themovements like FIRE, where you
(29:49):
have financial independence andretire early and you try to race
towards that and then feel free.
But I think work gives us a lotof meaning.
I don't know if it does for youas well, but it does for me for
sure, and that's one of thethings that actually brings a
lot of happiness to my life aswell.
Kurt Wilkin (30:05):
That's great to
hear, daniel.
I think this concept ofretiring whether it's 40 or 70,
is a misnomer.
I think that's put in our headsby these financial advisors.
You want to be able to retireand that's like I said.
That's kind of golf and RVtrips or whatever, and I want to
be in a position where I can doboth, where I can have some
(30:26):
meaning in my life through someform of vocation and have
flexibility to go do those typesof things if and when I would
like, which I do for the mostpart.
I still have one kid at home.
I've got two who have graduatedand pretty much on their own,
and then a third one at home.
So I don't have fullflexibility, but I've got the
(30:51):
ability to be pretty flexible.
I think that's what people arelooking for.
Daniel Koo (30:53):
Maybe not retire
early but be flexible earlier.
Yeah, I think what it is isfeeling safe and feeling
financially stable.
I think that's what peoplemaybe mistake for the comfort of
retirement.
So it seems like you achievedthis lifestyle through Hire
Better.
Can you tell me about how yougot started and you acquired
(31:14):
this company and kind oftransformed it into what it is
right now?
Could you?
Kurt Wilkin (31:16):
tell us that story.
I'm happy to tell you the HireBetter story, but the one where
I really achieved greatness isthe previous one that we talked
about a little bit.
The controller group and I madea couple of investments along
the way.
That panned out very well.
So I can dive into any of thosestories as you'd like.
I'm happy to talk aboutHirebetter, but I'm also happy
to talk about the others.
Daniel Koo (31:35):
Before we go into
Hirebetter, let's fully cover
the controller group, thenthat's actually interesting.
One of your questions in yourpodcast that you like to ask is
what are some questions that youwant me to ask and what are
some of the questions that youdon't want me to ask?
And I feel like this is maybeone of those moments where you
want me to ask about thecontroller group, because
(31:55):
there's some more insights there.
Kurt Wilkin (31:58):
Well, specifically
to your question, I've got
another one for you.
But the controller group we'vecovered a fair amount.
I started it out of necessityand we ended up being very
fortunate and I had very smartpeople around me and we were
able to grow a company to about$20 million in revenue in a
five-year period for a servicefirm, which is really really
tough.
And the magic there was reallymy partners Brett Lawson, who is
(32:20):
an operating person he's muchbetter at details and
organization and structure thanI am and that's really a big
part of our success.
And then our third partner wasKathy Schrock, who was fantastic
at those internal controls Italked about before and she was
able to convince even thebiggest of companies that we
were better than even ErnstYoung or Deloitte and Touche or
you name the big CPA firm.
(32:41):
So that was a big part of oursuccess.
But your question, the questionI ask in my podcast, is tell me
one question that you're neverasked and you're either glad
they you know they wish theywould ask or you're secretly
glad that they don't.
And that podcast is UnlockingMoves, by the way.
So check it out.
But the one that you got methinking of is something around
(33:03):
the investments that you've made.
So I told you earlier we'vemade about 200 investments and
people always want to ask aboutthe big ones, the ones that do
great and Takovus Boots.
If you're familiar with Takovus,they're a company I've invested
in Got very, very fortunatewith that one.
They're a great brand and manyof your listeners have heard of.
There's a company called OpenLending, which is an Austin
(33:29):
based tech company that became aunicorn, which is, by
definition, over a billiondollars in value.
That's a great success story.
But there's a whole lot of dogs.
So out of 200, there's maybeone, maybe one and a half you
know grand slams, maybe a one ortwo home runs or even close to
(33:50):
that, and there's probably ahundred ones that don't make it.
Maybe not a hundred, but a lotthat don't make it, and no one
ever talks about those.
But I've got a boatload ofstories that we could talk about
when it comes to companies thatdidn't make it.
Daniel Koo (34:04):
What's one of them
that you?
Kurt Wilkin (34:08):
companies that
didn't make it.
What's one of them that you, Iguess, learned the most from?
So there's one called HomePlate Peanut Butter, which I
don't know if Clint will listento this or not, but great peanut
butter, which I know you'relike.
Well, why'd you invest in apeanut butter company?
Great peanut butter, it'sdelicious, awesome.
They had a lot of major leaguebaseball players they were
working with, but not a greatbusiness, and I'll leave it at
(34:31):
that.
There were some things aroundthe business that just it's just
hard to grow a business likethat and I didn't really I
didn't appreciate that going in.
There's another one that Iwon't mention the name, but it's
a company that we invested inthrough the advice of a friend
and we got overextended.
(34:52):
We got to know the founder andwe invested more money than we
probably should have and somethings came to light.
We found out that the founderwas a fraud.
He had been basically buildinghis own lifestyle with millions
of dollars from investors and weuncovered it with some help and
(35:14):
really put him to task for it,and I hope he doesn't fully get
away with it.
But I don't like dealing withdishonest people, especially if
you're.
I just don't like frauds.
Daniel Koo (35:26):
Let's put it that
way.
So I guess you've you've wentthrough a lot of investments
that maybe not have, maybe didnot pan out the way you wanted
it to.
What's your approach now toapproaching new companies that
are seeking, like venturecapital?
Kurt Wilkin (35:42):
Yeah.
So I'm always going to investin the people and that's where I
start, versus any kind of ideaor how big you're going to be or
how fancy your idea is.
It's more about the people anddo I think that I can trust and
respect you and do I thinkyou've got the grit to get
through those hard times andenough experience to make it
happen.
And the few times when I havegone against my gut on the
(36:05):
integrity of a person, like thesecond example I gave you, I
knew early on my gut was tellingme this was wrong and I just
didn't follow through with mygut.
So that, for me, is the biggestlesson is invest in people and
trust your gut.
Daniel Koo (36:23):
Would you say
experience is more important, or
maybe, like the grit or, youknow, like the attitude is more
important?
Kurt Wilkin (36:30):
I think it's grit
man.
I'm telling you, like we saidearly on, you're going to be
knocked on your ass and you gotto be able to get back up and
you've got to learn from it andkeep going and no matter how
smart you are, how experiencedyou are, if you don't have that
level of do whatever it takes,you're not going to make it.
Daniel Koo (36:48):
Just for the sake of
our listeners.
When you say knocked on yourass, what kind of scenarios do
you find yourself in as anentrepreneur?
Just to be aware of the scale,of the weight of what's
happening.
Kurt Wilkin (36:59):
Yep, so let's think
about that.
So things like you've got acompany that makes widgets and
the company that produces yourwidgets goes out of business and
you're trying to figure outwhere the hell am I going to get
my widgets manufactured now andI've got to figure this out in
the next 30 days Like that's anexample.
(37:30):
Example is one of your very bigclients discovers that one of
your contractors that you haveout there doing work is doing
things inappropriately and youhave to go answer the bell when
they're like pissing and moaninglike what the hell?
I'm not going to pay youanything and I'm going to tell
the world that you hiredassholes and you have to own it
and appreciate it and fall onthe sword and apologize and it's
(37:51):
never going to happen again andswallow your pride.
And some of my best clientrelationships or customer
relationships have come fromtimes when things didn't go
right and I took the high roadand made it right for them and I
didn't try to shirk and hidefrom that, and so that's just
another example of getting upoff your ass and, you know,
(38:15):
taking it.
Daniel Koo (38:16):
That actually kind
of leads us into the questions
of to whom would you recommendthis career of entrepreneurship,
be being in venture capital?
I know being in venture capitalprobably isn't something you
can just jump into.
It's not like a job, right, youhave to be more of an investor.
But for entrepreneurship, whodo you recommend it to?
(38:38):
What's kind of like thearchetype of a person that you
think this would be mostwell-suited for.
Kurt Wilkin (38:45):
Yeah, on the first
part, bk Capital we're not
venture capitalists, we're angelinvestors, which means that
we're yeah venture is a big wordthat gets thrown around and
there's some different styleswe're definitely not venture, so
it's just FYI, not a big deal.
If you like charting your owncourse, if you like being maybe
(39:15):
being your own boss, if you likehaving the ball in the closing
seconds to take the final shot,like you want the pressure on
you, those are all someattributes.
If you are comfortable beinguncomfortable, if you are
comfortable in the gray area, ifyou're comfortable being
uncomfortable, if you arecomfortable in the gray area, if
you're passionate aboutsomething, if you are willing to
(39:36):
do whatever it takes, if you'rewilling to roll up your sleeves
and one day you're schmoozingwith the CEO of Walmart, the
next minute you're moppingfloors, all those are attributes
that I would describe as anentrepreneur.
Attributes that I woulddescribe as an entrepreneur.
If you want to be rich becauseyou see someone else started
Facebook and you want to be richlike him or whatever, probably
(39:56):
not.
If you see somebody that's anentrepreneur and they're out on
a yacht because they've made it20 years later, probably not,
because for every success storyyou see there's probably 10 to
20 years of blood, sweat andtears that went into that, and
just make sure that you're readyfor all that Now.
(40:17):
It could be awesome when itworks, and even if it doesn't
work, it can still be decent.
But I know a lot of smallbusiness owners that look
successful on the outside butthey just have a really shitty
job On an hourly basis.
They probably make $10 an hourbecause they work 150 hours a
week.
Daniel Koo (40:35):
I also heard
something that was interesting.
They say that the CEO is theperson that needs to solve the
most difficult problems in thecompany, because when your
employees have a problem andthey can't solve it, they always
go to the manager and it keepsbubbling up.
Would you say that's true, andwould you say that the most
(40:57):
difficult problems bubble up toyou, or do you feel like you are
always able to delegate that tosomeone else?
Kurt Wilkin (41:03):
Well, by definition
you're right.
The most difficult problems doultimately make their way.
Now.
I used to be really bad atsolving people's problems versus
encouraging them to solvethemselves, and so I'm much
smarter about that now.
But your point's still true.
They say it's very lonely atthe top because there's no other
(41:24):
place to go on some of thoseproblems, especially if you're
the owner.
If you're not the owner, youcan always quit, but if you not
the owner, you can always quit,but if you're the owner, you
can't quit.
Daniel Koo (41:31):
One last question
what's something that you would
say to yourself in your 20s?
What would you tell yourself inyour 20s, with all the
knowledge that you have now?
What's like, maybe one phrasethat you think will inspire them
and keep them going?
Kurt Wilkin (41:48):
You know it's a
good question.
It's a question advice to youryounger self.
I mean, there's all kinds ofphilosophical things I could go
to.
The one that I think I'mleaning towards is things
typically work out.
And so I don't know if you havea spiritual guide or a faith.
(42:09):
You know Christianity, buddhism, whatever it is, faith in a
higher being, perhaps.
But things generally work out.
But here's the catch they don'talways work out the way you
expected it to or wanted it to.
So, for example, if you start acompany and it's just a slog
and it's not going very well andyou really just don't
understand it, and you'reputting 100 hours a week into it
(42:32):
and two years later you'restill looking at this slog,
maybe what you're supposed to dois walk away from that.
It doesn't mean that that'sgoing to work out and be a $100
million company and you're onyour yacht.
It's just a lesson that you canlearn and how to apply that for
my next venture or my nextstage in life.
What did I learn that along theway?
Daniel Koo (42:56):
You're saying
there's multiple ways of things
panning out and sometimes youdon't expect them, but they
always end up do working out inthe end.
Kurt Wilkin (43:05):
Yep, I'll tell you,
I'm not a planner.
You know, when I was in collegeI don't know about you guys,
your generation but there wasalways like, if you fail to plan
, you plan to fail.
And you got to have a five-yearplan and you got to, what are
you doing next?
And I've never been that guylike blowing in the wind.
(43:29):
There's a little bit in themiddle, right where I have some
things I'm working towards and Iget thrown curveballs.
I had no idea I was going to bein the recruiting business.
I had no idea I was going to bestarting a finance and
accounting consulting firm.
I had no idea, you know, I wasgoing to pass the CPA exam.
It's just all these things thatthe steps that took along the
way led to, honestly, a prettyblessed life.
Daniel Koo (43:49):
Thank you so much
for all of your insights Today.
What I learned is, you know,actually I learned a couple of
things from you.
The number one thing isstrength finding.
So kind of focusing and leaninginto your strengths and I've
had like a growth mindset for along time and not that that's
not true but I think it's goodto know what your strengths are
(44:13):
and be able to utilize them inthe right way and to scale
myself into a bigger company.
I think you definitely need toknow what those strengths are
and what your weaknesses are soyou can fill them with other
people.
I think through your book I canreally see how companies are
built by people and I can reallykind of resonate with how this
(44:35):
world is kind of run by people.
So you really have to know howto manage them and you know, I
guess, build like a power groupof people that can achieve the
goals that you have.
The other thing that I'mlearning is that being in
entrepreneurship is not easy andI know that's.
It's probably obvious, right,but I don't think we know how
(44:57):
hard it is and I feel like it'snot like a workout, it's more
like a.
It's like a survival kind ofthing that you're experiencing
in the wilderness.
So I feel like that's somethingthat our listeners should
really take note before reallydiving in, although I feel like
a lot of the people who end upgoing into entrepreneurship will
(45:18):
find their way into it somehowat some point in their lives.
Kurt Wilkin (45:22):
Well, daniel, I
learned a few things from you.
You asked me some really goodquestions that I hadn't really
pondered the way that you askedthem, and it gave me some things
to think about as far asdecisions that were made or
steps along the way that weregood to kind of reflect on and
see why or how that step wastaken.
So, thank you.
Daniel Koo (45:41):
Thank you so much.
Everyone be sure to check outUnlocking Moves.
That's Kurt's podcast.
It also is on a two-weekschedule and it's very, very
good.
He interviews guests with tonsof experience and it's going to
be one of my go-to podcastsgoing forward, so I hope you
(46:01):
enjoy that as well.
Awesome.
Kurt Wilkin (46:03):
Thanks.
Daniel Koo (46:03):
Daniel, thank you
you.