I am a doctor who was also a DJ

When Dr. Kenneth Kwon applied to Columbia Medical School, he never expected his college DJ experience would become the connection that helped him secure admission. This unexpected twist exemplifies his entire career—a journey of calculated risks and pivots within a traditionally conservative field.

For over two decades, Dr. Kwon has been at the forefront of emergency pediatric medicine, serving as Chief of Staff at Children's Hospital of Orange County. His path took remarkable turns: completing an economics degree before medicine, transferring from UCLA to Stanford during residency to be near his future wife, and pursuing a second full residency in emergency medicine after finishing pediatrics.

What makes emergency medicine unique? Dr. Kwon describes it as "controlled chaos" requiring thick skin, decisive action, and exceptional multitasking. Emergency physicians must constantly prioritize the most life-threatening conditions while managing 10-20 patients simultaneously. This high-pressure environment isn't for everyone, but for those with the right temperament, it offers tremendous fulfillment.

The COVID-19 pandemic profoundly impacted frontline healthcare workers. Dr. Kwon shares a powerful memory of receiving limited PPE supplies in March 2020—a somber moment when physicians realized they were "running into the burning building while everyone else was running out." This period accelerated burnout among medical professionals, including himself, leading to reduced clinical hours and earlier retirement considerations.

Perhaps his most valuable insight is about maintaining identity beyond medicine. "Don't identify only as a doctor," he advises. By compartmentalizing work and nurturing family relationships and outside interests throughout his career, he approaches retirement without the identity crisis many professionals face. This wisdom applies across all professions—your work should be part of your life, not its entirety.

Ready to shape your own career path? Remember Dr. Kwon's advice: research thoroughly, trust your instincts, and commit fully to well-considered decisions. What unique experiences might become your unexpected career differentiator? Share your thoughts and follow us for more inspiring professional journeys.

Feel free to leave comments here!

Episode Transcript

Kenneth Kwon (00:00):
What's interesting about that whole experience to
me is I attribute getting intomedical school because of my
DJing.
Really, and I say that becausewhen you apply for college or
you apply to medical school orgraduate school, there's some
sort of an angle or some sort ofa hook or some sort of spike

(00:20):
that you want to try to promote.
That you want to try to promoteand I decided to try to promote
DJing in some of my personalstatements and some of my essays
.
I was trying to give off thisvibe that I was like I'm not
just a bookworm, you're verycool.
Well, I tried to be like youknow, yeah, something like that,
I guess maybe.
But what was really interestingwas at my interview at Columbia,

(00:43):
which is where I ended up goingto medical school was at my
interview at Columbia, which iswhere I ended up going to
medical school, my interviewerasked me specifically about
DJing and I didn't realize thatshe was completely into it as
well, and so we just connectedon this level.
That was amazing and I think itwas because of that interview

(01:03):
that I probably got in.
That's what I think.
But, like I said, without thatconnection it might have been a
different story.

Daniel Koo (01:10):
Hey, welcome back to my Perfect Path.
For those of you who are new,I'm your host, daniel Koo, and I
welcome you to season two.
For me, at large, pivotalmoments of my life, such as
applying to new colleges,applying to new jobs or
determining what next careermove is right for me I spend
time researching and findingmentorship to determine what was

(01:31):
the best path for me.
I knew that this struggle wasnot isolated to me.
Everyone struggles with this,simply because we cannot predict
the future.
However, I found something thatis second best to predicting
the future it's learning fromthose ahead of our career and
from those who've seen more andexperienced more.
After all, there are not thatmany problems that have not been
solved yet.

(01:52):
If you've ever felt unsureabout your next career move,
you're in the right place.
Today, I'm excited to introduceyou to Dr Kenneth Kwan, former

(02:12):
chief of staff at Children'sHospital of Orange County.
In our conversation, we talkabout his career covering two
decades.
His journey took him fromColumbia to UCLA, stanford and
UCI.
He completed two medicalresidencies along the way.
What makes Kenneth's storycompelling is his willingness to
take calculated risks in atraditionally conservative field

(02:33):
.
He transferred programs to becloser to his future wife.
He pivoted from pediatrics toemergency medicine and he
maintained his identity beyondmedicine from college DJ to
hospital leadership.
Kenneth offers honest insightsabout emergency medicine
realities, covid-19's impact onfrontline workers and the
importance of recognizingburnout.

(02:54):
In this episode, we'll discusscareer pivots, essential
qualities for emergency medicine, work-life balance and why you
shouldn't identify solely byyour profession.
I think you're going to enjoythis one.
Why you shouldn't identifysolely by your profession.
I think you're going to enjoythis one.
Dr Kwon, you've built anextraordinary career at the
intersection of pediatric andemergency medicine and I think

(03:15):
also with leadership ineducation as well.
Your journey began at ColumbiaUniversity, leading to UCLA,
stanford, uci.
Now you're the chief ofpediatric emergency medicine and
for over two decades, I think,you've been at the forefront of
shaping emergency pediatric carebasically, and I think that's

(03:35):
such an incredible achievement.
I think there's going to be somuch to learn from you and your
insights, so I welcome you tothe podcast.

Kenneth Kwon (03:44):
Oh, thank you, daniel.
Thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure to be here andyour words are too kind, so
thank you.

Daniel Koo (03:49):
I honestly can't say enough about your achievements.
I think they're incredible.
Before we get into it, I dowant to ask about what your
daily life looks like right now,working almost half like admin
and half as a physician.
What does your day-to-day looklike?

Kenneth Kwon (04:08):
Rather than day-to-day, I think it's
probably better to goweek-to-week or month-by-month.
I would say that when I firststarted emergency medicine I was
working about 14 or 15 shifts amonth, which is kind of the
full-time load for mostemergency physicians.
In time that becomes a littletoo much and so several years

(04:33):
ago I've kind of weaned it downto about 11 or 12 shifts and
that was kind of my zone 11 or12 shifts.
And I also had anadministrative workload meetings
, calling patients back, peerreview that took up probably the
equivalent of one or two shiftsa week as well.

(04:54):
In recent years I have cut itdown to currently where I work
about one or two shifts a weekand still do administrative work
, which is equivalent to aboutfive or 10 hours a week.
So my workload for a month,which had been up to over about
150 hours, has dropped down toabout 50.

Daniel Koo (05:20):
That's a little bit more manageable.
So are you chief of staff rightnow?

Kenneth Kwon (05:25):
I was previously the chief of staff at my
hospital, which is Providence,mission and Chalk Children's
Admission Hospital, which is thepediatric hospital in Orange
County.
Our hospital is unique in thefact that we have an adult
hospital and we also have apediatric hospital within that

(05:46):
general adult hospital whichoccupies the top floor.
And Children's Hospital ofOrange County is the only
children's hospital in OrangeCounty and they have two
campuses.
The main one is in the city ofOrange and their second campus
is at Mission Viejo and that'swhere I work.
And so for about five years ago, for two years, I was the chief

(06:09):
of staff of Chalkett.

Daniel Koo (06:11):
Mission Hospital.
I mean obviously because it'snot my industry.
I think chief of staff wassomething that I had to research
and from what I could gather itwas, you know, if there were
two sides of the hospital likethe administrative work and the
physician kind of work, thatposition kind of is the
leadership of the physician sideIs that correct?

Kenneth Kwon (06:35):
That's exactly correct, daniel.
So, yeah, the hospitaladministration is made up of
what they call the C-suite right, which is usually the CEO of
the hospital or the chiefexecutive.
There's a chief medical officer,there's chief operating officer
, chief financial officer, likepretty much any business, and on
the physician side, there is amedical staff in this hospital,

(06:57):
and my hospital has about 500physicians on staff, as well as
probably, I would say, 100 or so, what we call physician
assistants or advanced practiceproviders, which are what we
call kind of like the middletier of care, just underneath
what we do.

(07:17):
And so, as chief of staff, myjob was to be the support for
the medical staff, so I wouldsupport them if there were any
issues with administration, withsome certain patient care
related issues.
But on the flip side, I had toprovide oversight and leadership
into specific provider issueswithin the hospital or within

(07:42):
the medical group.
One example would be behavioralissues of a physician, another
would be maybe quality of careissues with a physician, and
another issue may be an impairedphysician, someone that may
have some alcohol or drug issuesthat is affecting their work.
I mean, unfortunately, you know, physicians it's a pretty

(08:07):
stressful occupation and we'renot immune to those sorts of
issues as well.
I think a good way to look atit is the chief of staff of the
hospital is both a supporter ofthe medical staff as well as
almost an oversight of themAlmost equivalent to what

(08:27):
internal affairs would be in apolice department.

Daniel Koo (08:33):
So I guess it kind of is the role that keeps the
bar high and kind of keeps likea nice standard and does that
through leadership.

Kenneth Kwon (08:42):
Correct and it's usually a process that takes
several years.
To get into that role youusually have to start in other
hospital leadership within yourown department, and then, as you
develop that knowledge and whatwe call institutional memory
with issues that come up withthe hospital, with physicians,

(09:05):
with the community, as youdevelop those experiences and
kind of spend more time andbuild more wisdom into what's
going on, then you areconsidered in that position.
It's a position that's voted inby the medical staff and it's
usually for two years, butthere's two years, what we call

(09:27):
a pre-chief of staff term, whichis two years, and the chief of
staff term is two years, andthen there's an immediate past
chief, which is two years.
So the whole cycle is six years, I see.

Daniel Koo (09:40):
I see.
So they kind of prepare you forthat role as well, correct,
which I'm sure you learned a lotduring that time as well.
Now that we went over kind ofwhat your week-to-week is, I
want to ask you how differentthat was from what you imagined
when you started.
You got your first physicianrole around early 30s.
Did you imagine this kind ofadvancement and career

(10:05):
progression, or did you havelike a grand plan basically,
when you started?

Kenneth Kwon (10:09):
I never, ever ever thought that I would be in
administration or hospitalleadership or even leadership
within a group of people.
I initially went into medicinebecause it was something I was
interested in and I wanted tohelp people.

(10:30):
But when I started out I never,ever thought that I would be
interested in any sort ofadministrative role.
Because, let's face it, it'spolitics.
It could be very painful andit's not necessarily anything
that I thought that I would begood at or even want to do.

(10:50):
As I progressed in my career,you realize that these positions
of leadership are important tosecure your job.
It's important for your groupof doctors that you're in I'm in
an emergency physician group soit's important for all the

(11:14):
other people in my group that ifwe have leaders in our group
that are liaisoning with thehospital leadership, then that
builds stability with our groupwithin the hospital and so that
builds stability with our groupwithin the hospital.
And so once you kind of realizethat, you realize well, this is
important and you know, in time, as you progress in your career

(11:35):
, you realize that you build upexperiences that the younger
physicians don't have, and soyou are naturally going to slide
into those positions have, andso you are naturally going to
slide into those positions butto answer your question, I did
not imagine doing any sort ofadministrative or leadership
role when I started my career asa physician.

Daniel Koo (11:54):
I also wanted to ask if you always saw yourself in
emergency medicine or did youstruggle with defining your path
?

Kenneth Kwon (12:01):
I never thought I would do emergency medicine with
defining your path.
I never thought I would doemergency medicine.
I have a very kind of I wouldsay a unique path in medicine.
Medicine is very structured.
It's long and it's structured.
You have to do four years ofmedical school after college.

(12:21):
Then you have to do residency,which lasts from three to seven
years.
Some people do fellowships andthen you go on into work and
there's always structure in thatand I've just kind of taken
these kind of turns here andthere.
That's led me to emergencymedicine.
I initially actually started asa pediatrician.

(12:44):
So when I entered medicalschool I was thinking about
pediatrics and as I progressed Idecided to do it During my
pediatric residency.
I didn't quite love it.
I love the children.
I think the parents were asecond patient that you had to

(13:08):
kind of deal with and some whileI was doing pediatrics I
actually worked in the emergencydepartment and I saw how kind

(13:32):
of interesting and exciting itwas and I hadn't seen adults for
a few years, because in medicalschool you see all sorts of
patients, right, you see thewhole age range, but once I
started pediatrics it was 18 andunder.
But in the emergency departmentyou see everything else is

(13:52):
going on and I was fortunateenough to you know, medicine is
all about mentorship as well.
But while I was a second-yearresident, I met an emergency
physician attending professorwho had also done pediatrics
before, and so I asked him aboutit and he was telling me you
know, ken, I started off ingeneral pediatrics, just like

(14:14):
you.
I finished it.
Then I decided to do a secondresidency in emergency medicine.
I finished that and here I amnow and he said, if I could do
it, you could do it Right.
And I thought about that and itkind of it kind of hit me and
so I, instead of just stoppingpediatric residency I only had
like a year, year and a halfleft so I actually completed

(14:36):
that.
And then, after completing mypediatric residency for three
years, I just kind of went rightinto an emergency medicine
residency.
So it was a second residency.

Daniel Koo (14:46):
Just to, I guess, provide some context, your
pediatrics residency you startedat UCLA, but you ended up
transferring to Stanford, yes,and then your emergency
residency was at UCI, uc Irvine.
Yes, okay, yes.

Kenneth Kwon (15:02):
I see, and how that happened is also kind of an
unusual situation, because onceyou start a residency, it's
unusual that you transfer.
Usually when you transfer, it'sdue to some sort of maybe
disciplinary issue or qualityissue, but for me it was because

(15:25):
I was getting married and mywife was definitely going to
graduate school up in NorthernCalifornia and I was in Southern
California, and so, you know,we were already kind of long
distance at the time, and sothat was one of the big
decisions points that I had tomake in my life is am I going to

(15:46):
transfer um residencies, whichis hard to do Um?
But what was fortunate was thatat that exact moment that I was
thinking about you know, youknow, maybe I need to transfer
to to be closer to, you know, tomy future wife, it was at that

(16:07):
time where I called one of mymed school friends who was
actually a pediatric residentalready at Stanford, and he said
Ken, it's so weird becausethere's a pediatric resident in
my class that wants to go to LAfor the exact same reason,
because she's engaged and herhusband is in Los Angeles.

(16:29):
So it was just fate, I think.
Right, it was so coincidentaland I had already interviewed at
Stanford for residency the yearbefore, so I knew the residency
director and it was just amatter of making a few calls and
then it was done, and that'svery unusual.
So that's how that happened.

Daniel Koo (16:51):
I think there's a couple of unusual things here, I
guess, yeah, as you mentioned,transferring residencies is no
easy feat and I think being ableto make that decision to you
know, transfer, I think wouldhave been really difficult and
maybe it felt a little risky.
How did you kind of thinkthrough it?

(17:13):
What was kind of going throughyour head at the time?

Kenneth Kwon (17:15):
Yeah, it was.
It was definitely risky.
Medicine is is odd.
I'm I'm intrinsically a prettyrisky person.
I think I've always been thatway.
But what happens in medicine isbecause it is so structured,
because there is a very linearpath that you have to take and a

(17:39):
very conservative path.
For the most part, you have tobe a risk averse.
I think the people that areattracted to medicine as a as as
a field, are, for the most part, risk averse and very
conservative.
Right, I think so.
I think you have to be, and ifyou're not, what happens is that
when you're in that field, youbecome more risk averse, because

(18:00):
that's kind of the way medicineis.
There's an adage in medicine inemergency medicine, but also in
medicine in general is first dono harm, first do no harm.
Before you even think abouthelping a patient, diagnosing a
patient, treating a patient withcertain medications, first do

(18:21):
no harm.
So intrinsically, inherently,if you are a physician, you're
not going to do no harm.
That's kind of the mentalitythat you have, and so I like to
take risks when I was younger,but as I entered medicine, I
became more risk averse.
So these points in my life andthis was probably one of the big
points in my life is I had tomake that decision and I was

(18:43):
like whoa, this is risky, and soI don't know if I really should
do this.
But I think my intrinsicrisk-taking behavior kind of
took over and said, hey.
Behavior kind of took over andsaid, hey, you know, you kind of
do the math, you do your duediligence, you kind of weigh the
pros and cons and it was apretty easy decision for me.

(19:03):
But certainly I had to thinkabout that and it was risky.
But once you kind of go throughall the scenarios and what ifs,
what ifs, and I decided this isan obvious yes, and then so
once I determined that it wasvery easy just to jump in.
So I would say that it took alittle bit of time, but not a

(19:28):
whole lot of time.

Daniel Koo (19:29):
No, yeah, I think I really admire that.
Right now, living in LA for acouple of years, I feel very
rooted and I can't imaginemoving being that easy.
So if I try to put myself inyour shoes and if I'm choosing
my next kind of career step, Ithink it'd be really difficult
to kind of switch somethingafter you've gotten in.

(19:50):
So I think I really admire that.
I think the second thing thatwas really interesting was doing
two residencies, and can youtell me if that's somewhat
common or not common in themedical field Also?

Kenneth Kwon (20:03):
not common.
I would say that when I wasdoing residency in the mid to
late 90s, um, there were, youknow, a number of of physicians
that would kind of do a secondresidency, what they call a dual
residency, where they wouldfinish one or do another.
There's actually some programsthat actually offer two

(20:26):
specialty.
Yeah, you could five, six yearsyou can do medicine and
pediatrics or, uh, medicine,emergency medicine.
So there are those dualresidencies, but those are very
few and far between.
But still some people wereactually doing one residency and
saying, oh, I'm going to do asecond one.

(20:46):
Not that many.
Nowadays it's very, very hardbecause residencies are funded
by certain funding groups,certain entities, graduate
medical education entities, andso they usually only allot a
certain amount of money thatthey give for a residency
program to have residents.

(21:07):
But if someone has already beena resident, they've already
kind of filled up theirallotment.
If someone has already been aresident, they've already kind
of filled up their allotment.
So they don't allow.
If, say, you did three years ofresidency and you want to do a
second residency, if a programdecides to take you, they may
have to fund that 100% bythemselves, as opposed to having

(21:28):
a funding agency give them 50%,100% of the salary.
So that has made it kind ofexponentially harder for people
to do two residencies.
Back then it was unusual, butnot Not as impossible, not as
impossible.

Daniel Koo (21:44):
I see, and I think choosing to do that second
residency must have been reallyI don't know if it's risky, but
it certainly was kind of a turnin your path, deciding to spend
another few years studying andpracticing a new kind of
medicine.
What kind of gave you the pushto do that?

(22:05):
I guess we did mention yourmentor as well, but was there
something about emergencymedicine that really attracted
you?

Kenneth Kwon (22:12):
Was there something about emergency
medicine that really attractedyou?
Yeah, I love the pace.
You know you're a bit young.
I think many of these viewerswill probably not even know, but
there was a show called ER thatcame out in the mid to early
90s George Clooney but it was avery popular show that kind of
introduced the nation to acertain degree to what emergency

(22:35):
physicians do.
Emergency medicine is actuallya very young specialty.
It only became an officialspecialty in, I think, 1979.
And it was predominantly onlyin certain areas of the country.
Historically, emergency rooms ordepartments were staffed by

(22:56):
internal medicine doctors,surgeons and pediatricians, and
this is, you know, they don'tdidn't have any expertise in any
other field except what theywere doing, and so it became
very vital when emergencydepartments started getting
bigger that a surgeon is not theappropriate person to take care

(23:17):
of a pediatric patient or, youknow, an intern medicine doctor
is not the right person to takecare of a pediatric patient.
So it required its ownspecialty and so that all
happened.
A push for more residencies inemergency medicine as a
specialty really startedblossoming in the 80s and 90s.
I remember when I was actuallyin medical school I was going to

(23:40):
do pediatrics.
But in my fourth year you haveopportunities to do electives
and kind of see what otherspecialties are about.
And I actually did an emergencymedicine month, or what they
call a clerkship in an emergencydepartment in New York City and
I loved it and I was actuallythinking about maybe switching

(24:02):
course and doing emergency atthat time.
But once again, this medicine issomewhat hierarchical and it is
based on who you trust.

(24:25):
And my mentors at my medicalschool, which was a very
traditional medical school it'slike the oldest medical school
in the country they like toproduce mentors there and to the
dean of the school because theyhave to kind of sign off on
what specialty you're going todo she said frankly, like you
know, I wouldn't do that becauseemergency medicine is so new

(24:47):
and you don't know where it'sgoing to be headed.
So because of that I didn'tmake that leap at that time and
do emergency medicine.
I, I, I did pediatrics like Ihad always intended to do going
through medical school, but thenit was really in in residency.
That emergency just kind ofkept coming back into my mind
and in in almost everything thatI saw.

(25:09):
You know.
You know pediatric patientshave emergencies all the time
and so that's when I thought,hey, I could do this, or I'm
interested in doing this, andthen that's how it happened.

Daniel Koo (25:21):
To some degree it's always been with you, kind of
that interest.
I think it's interesting to seethat you ended up kind of going
to where you originally wanted,even with, I guess, some advice
that may not have worked out inthe most perfect way.

Kenneth Kwon (25:37):
Yeah, and I think that goes to show that there is
no perfect path.
I mean, I think this is whatyou're doing is great, because
everyone has their own journeyright and mine kind of meandered
from one interest to another,one special to another, one
residency program to another,and I still ended up kind of in
the same place, I think, at theend of the day.

(25:58):
So you know, life has thisweird way of working out.
I think right, and you justhave to trust what you believe
in and you have to trust yourgut.
I think.

Daniel Koo (26:09):
So today's episode title is my Meandering Medical
Path, as you've chosen, and Ithink we've already kind of
delved into some of it.
But I guess for you, lookingback, would you say you shaped
your career more intentionallyor you felt like it was totally
unexpected the way it came itwas unexpected and, if I can go

(26:33):
all the way back to childhood,to kind of.
I think that's perfect.
That's what I was going to gointo.

Kenneth Kwon (26:38):
I was the youngest child of three, and you know
I'm from an immigrant family.
My father, his father, mygrandfather died of tuberculosis
when he was only 19 years old,so my father was only six months
at the time.
So my father grew up without afather.

(26:59):
He was raised by a single mom,and so it was always his dream
to become a physician.
He tells us these stories ofhow my grandfather was dying and
told my grandmother make ourson a doctor to kind of cure
this disease that I'm dying from.

(27:21):
I don't know how true this mayhave been, but as you grow up,
you hear these stories, and sothat was always in the mind of
me and my siblings.
But I was the youngest, I hadno pressure.

Daniel Koo (27:37):
How old were you when you first immigrated to?
I was four.

Kenneth Kwon (27:42):
My sister was the oldest, she's seven, and my
brother was six and I was four.
So growing up we hear thesestories.
Growing up, you know, we hearthese stories, and so in our
conscious or subconscious, youknow, I think, there was always
this thought, or maybe a littlepressure to consider medicine.
But as you know, in an Asian,specifically Korean, family,

(28:10):
it's birth order is everythingright, and certain expectations,
certain duties are based purelyon birth order.
And so my sister, I think, hadthought about medicine, but she
ended up going into government,international relations and law,
so it wasn't going to happenfor her.
My brother thought about itbriefly as well, but he ended up

(28:32):
going into investment, bankingand business and business school
, so it didn't happen for him.
For me, you were the last one, Iwas the last one, but my
parents really didn't have anyexpectations of me.
I think they didn't put anypressure on me, which I thank
them for.
It's the privilege of the lastborn, right, it's the privilege

(28:54):
of the last born.
So I was kind of free to dowhat I wanted.
So I kind of just explored andsaid, hey, I'm going to try this
, I'm going to try that.
So I was not afraid.
That's kind of what I wastalking about.
I felt like I could take morerisks and not worry about any
consequences.
Right, so I go to college, andeven college.

(29:17):
It was interesting because mysister was already on the East
Coast, my brother was on theEast Coast and so for me I had
to choose between staying inCalifornia, which I wanted to do
, or going out east.
And because they were alreadyout there, I decided to kind of
take that risk and go out there,which wasn't really a risk

(29:38):
because once again, my siblingswere out there, did they
recommend that you kind ofbranch out from California.
Yeah, they did.
They did because of theirexperiences and what I really
wanted to do was I was reallyinterested in possibly
hospitality and hotel.
Oh, I mean Cornell is veryfamous for it Exactly, and

(29:59):
Cornell has one of the bestschools for that.
So I went to Cornell thinkingthat I may kind of steer in that
direction and that was reallythe appeal of that school to me.
And then I went there and I wasalso interested in math and
even the sciences.

(30:19):
But medicine to me was apossibility, but not really in
view yet.
Medicine to me was apossibility, but not really in
view yet.
So in college, as a typicalstereotypical Asian male, I was
very interested in math.
But I was also interested insciences.
But the biology and chemistryreally weren't that exciting to

(30:41):
me.
I was kind of more interestedin some of the social sciences,
and so economics was very, verydifferent and new to me and I
was like this is great, it has alot of math, um, it it is, it's
a science, but it's based a loton on on society it's, it's,
it's it's economics and so Iguess you feel like you're
learning about the world and thegeneral trends and things like

(31:02):
that so then I became aneconomics major.
But because of that little voicein the back of my head from my
father saying you know, hey,does anyone want to be a doctor
in this family?
I took all my prerequisitemedical school courses.

Daniel Koo (31:21):
So you were an economics major but pre-med at
the same time.

Kenneth Kwon (31:24):
I was an economics major but just took pre-med
courses.
So you were an economics majorbut pre-med.
At the same time, I was aneconomics major but just took
pre-med courses.
There was no exact major calleda pre-med major.
Right, it's like a set ofcourses that you need to take.
It's a set of courses andwhat's kind of a I don't know a
misconception or a falsehood isthat to go to medical school,
you do not need to major in ascience.
You can major in anything youwant.

(31:45):
You can major in English, youcan major in art, literature, or
you can major in economics,like I did.
And then, I think, right aroundjunior year in college, when I
had to decide if I was going totake this really hard test
called the MCAS, which is amedical college admission test,

(32:05):
or if I was going to potentiallyjust maybe go to grad school in
economics, because I wasthinking about getting a
master's.

Daniel Koo (32:12):
Oh, even while fulfilling the prerequisite, you
were considering grad schoolfor economics.

Kenneth Kwon (32:18):
For economics.

Daniel Koo (32:19):
right right, that must have been a very confusing
time.

Kenneth Kwon (32:23):
It was not so much confusing, but it was somewhat
of a busy time and, like I said,I did my due diligence and then
I said you know what, I'm goingto take the MCATs and that's
going to determine my fate.
Because, believe me, I wasn't agreat student.
I didn't have a really high GPA.

(32:43):
I started school kind a reallyhigh GPA.
You know, I started school, youknow kind of you know not very
motivated, but I kind of let theMCAT kind of determine if I was
going to try to go thatdirection.
And you know this is the mid tolate 80s.
I mean, it was difficult to getinto medical school, but not
anything like it is now.

(33:04):
It's so much more competitivenow.
We all talk about this.
My physician friends alwaystalk about we would have never
gotten into medical school.
But back then if you didn'thave such a great GPA but you
did well on your MCATs or youhad some other activities or did
something that really kind ofmade yourself stand apart, then

(33:25):
you might have a chance.
So I took my MCATs, I didpretty well in it and so I
decided to apply to medicalschool and kind of forego Not,
forego, just not continue on it.

Daniel Koo (33:36):
You also mentioned that you worked as a DJ and a
bartender.
Yes, were those, any potentialpaths that you had to forego.

Kenneth Kwon (33:47):
Well, I've always loved music.
Music has really been somethingthat I just absolutely love.
They say music is a soundtrackto your life, and for me it
really is.
I could hear a song and I couldremember exactly what I was
doing when that song was playing.
You know way in my past, right?
So music's always been that wayfor me.

(34:08):
And so, um, in college, uh, aclose friend of mine was also
into music and then we we hedecided to get a couple of
turntables and we started justkind of screwing around with it
and scratching and and and doingsome beat, beat mixing, and
then, before you know it, wedecided to start a dj, like a

(34:28):
gig, just a group, just the twoof us and um, and we called it
subliminal beat productions andand we just started kind of
doing the parties around campusthat we did.
We, we did a lot of fraternitiesand sororities.
We did pretty much all theAsian parties kind of in that
time frame and so that was fun.

(34:50):
That was a lot of fun and so,yeah, I did do DJing in college
and part of that whole thingwith DJing is that you're always
kind of in these scenes wherepeople are just kind of having a
good time fraternities,sororities.
So then I saw that people werehiring bartenders to serve
drinks and back then thedrinking age was actually a

(35:12):
little lower.
It was like, I think, 18 or 19in New York, yeah, in New York
state, and then it went up to 21right when I was in college.
So then I was like, hey, youknow, let's see if I can make
some more money just by doingsome bartending.
So let's see if I can make somemore money just by doing some
bartending.
So I took a couple of justclasses around, like a one or
two week class, and then, boom,I was a bartender and I started
bartending some of the sameparties that I was teaching at,

(35:38):
and so that was great.
But what's interesting aboutthat whole experience to me is I
attribute getting into medicalschool because of my DJing.
Really, and I say that becauseyou know, when you, when you
apply for college or you applyto medical school or graduate
school, you know there's somesort of an angle or some sort of
a hook or some sort of spike,that that you want to try to

(36:01):
promote.
And for me that was really.
Uh, I decided to try to promotedj in my, in some of my personal
statements and some of myessays, just about kind of
entrepreneurship, maybe, youknow, just kind of socialization
and and and just kind of I wastrying to give off this vibe

(36:21):
that.
I was like, hey, I was, I'm not, I'm not just a bookworm,
you're very cool.
Well, I tried to be like yeah,something like that.
I guess maybe.
But what was really interestingwas at my interview at Columbia
, which is where I ended upgoing to medical school, my
interviewer asked mespecifically about DJing and I

(36:43):
didn't realize that she wascompletely into it as well, and
so we just connected on thislevel.
That was amazing and I think itwas because of that interview
that I probably got in.
That's what I think.
But, like I said, without thatconnection it might've been a
different story.

Daniel Koo (37:02):
Right.
That's incredible.
I think oftentimes with gettingjobs and interviews, a lot of
it is kind of coincidences andluck.
I remember with my interview aswell, back when I was applying,
we had a huge hiring freezethroughout the industry.
Offers were getting rescindedleft and right, but when I was

(37:27):
interviewing with my hiringmanager, we really connected on
cycling, on random things that Iwas really surprised to have
this commonality and even withcoding philosophies and
engineering philosophies wereally hit it off and I really

(37:47):
believe that if I did aninterview with him and it was
someone else on the team, Iwouldn't be here.
I would be in a totallydifferent company.
So I think that's superinteresting that that worked out
that way.
So I guess if you're a pre-medstudent with a DJing career, I
think you should continue it.

Kenneth Kwon (38:05):
That's the advice.
Well, what's interesting isthat, even now because I still
am around a lot of the residentsand what we call medical
scribes, who are in their teensand 20s, nursing as well, and
music is everywhere, right.
And so, for some reason, uh,word got out that I was

(38:29):
previously a dj, right and andand so they, some people think
like, wow, you were like on theradio, you know, and I was like,
no, it's not that kind of a dj.
You know, there's, um, you knowthere's, you know there's a
radio disc jockey, and thenthere's just people that just
spin and play music, right.
And so, uh, you know, I have tokind of explain.
There's a radio disc jockey andthen there's just people that
just spin and play music, right,and so, you know, I had to kind
of explain that.
It's funny, because peoplealways thought that my friends

(38:51):
said, hey, you have a voice madefor radio.
You know it was my, you do.
But it was those same friendsthat also said that, hey, you
also have a face made for radio.
So it's kind of a simultaneouscompliment, simultaneous
compliment and an insult.

Daniel Koo (39:04):
I see Face because radio people don't have to show
their faces Correct correct,correct, but you bring up an
interesting point about theconnections.

Kenneth Kwon (39:14):
Connecting is really just vital to almost
everything you do in life.
And I say that because, as anemergency physician, I think the
most important thing that youhave to do right away, in the
first minute or two that youwalk into a room, is you have to
be able to connect with yourpatient or the family member of

(39:37):
the patient, and so you have avery short time to build that
connection.
And so if you're kind of goodat that and I'm not saying that
I'm great at that, but I'msaying that, you know, through
the many decades of experiencesthat I've had, I think I've

(39:57):
developed a way to somehow makethat connection pretty quickly
with patients and their families.
And so to me, because it waskind of a natural thing to do
and, you know, I think it makesmy job a lot easier, because I
know a lot of physiciansemergency physicians that maybe

(40:17):
can't do that, or it takes thema little bit longer to do that,
or you know there's justsomething that doesn't allow for
them to do that in a kind of anatural or organic way, can you?

Daniel Koo (40:29):
walk us through what happens when an emergency event
happens.
What's kind of like the orderoperations, what you look for
like if you find the patientfirst or if you try to root
cause it first.

Kenneth Kwon (40:48):
Well, our patients just kind of come in just
through the waiting room,typically right.
And so there's the ones thatjust walk in and you know that
they're really not that sickbecause they're walking and
they're talking.
And those are the ones that youknow.
You go into registration andthey, you know they have to sign
in and then they do their vitalsigns.
And then those are the onesthat have to wait for an hour,
two hours, even longer.
Then there's ones that come in,maybe unannounced or by

(41:12):
ambulance, that are really sick,that are having difficulty
breathing.
That's not talking, that'scompletely altered.
So those are the ones that arekind of the true emergencies.
And so when they come in, theycome at your door, we bring them
right to a room and we have ateam that just jumps on it.
My job as an emergency physicianis to be the leader of that

(41:34):
team and to be the one that isthe decision-making on what
we're going to do.
It could be stressful,obviously it's very stressful,
but it could also be very kindof fulfilling and rewarding.
You know there's so manynuances to practicing medicine,

(41:55):
but I think the key in emergencyis that what we have to do is,
rather than look for the mostcommon reason why someone comes
in and their abdomen hurts,which is usually like a muscle
pull, or maybe it's a stomachflu, which is not a big deal.
We have to kind of think what'sgoing to kill this person,

(42:18):
what's a really serious cause ofthis pain?
And we have to try to make surethey don't have that first.
And so we have to be a littlemore, I guess, pessimistic.
We have to be like, you know,we can't you know?
So it's about prioritization,because it's emergency Right we
have to think what's the mostdeadly thing that's going to

(42:41):
hurt or disable or kill thispatient, and we have to make
sure they don't have that, andthen afterwards we just kind of
say, okay, then they don't havethat.
Then we kind of, you know, kindof ease off and kind of go down
that list.
You know one, some things thatwe have to be really good at is
we have to learn to multitask,because we are dealing with, you
know, sometimes, know sometimes10, 15, 20 patients at once, so

(43:05):
we have to be able to to do alot of things at once and not
really, you know, we call itcontrolled chaos and because it
can get very chaotic, but wejust have to control it.
We have to control our ownemotions and we have to control
kind of everything that's goingon, because I, you know, I I
have younger people that shadowme and I have some colleagues

(43:26):
that aren't in emergencymedicine that come in and kind
of see what's going on and theyall say the same thing.
It's like, wow, this is likenuts in here, right.

Daniel Koo (43:35):
I'm feeling anxious just thinking about the 10
people that you have to manage.

Kenneth Kwon (43:40):
So we have to multitask because we're
literally getting bombarded bypeople left and right with
questions, things to do.
I have to sign this, I have tosign an EKG, I have to talk to a
family member, I have to get onthe phone oh, someone stopped
breathing and so there's a lotof things that are happening and
you just have to be able tomultitask and just prioritize,

(44:00):
as you said prioritize exactlywhat's the most important thing
that I have to do at this moment.

Daniel Koo (44:06):
I usually ask this question at the very end, but I
feel like I want to ask it now.
Do you feel like there arecertain qualities that are
necessary to be an emergencymedicine?

Kenneth Kwon (44:15):
Yes, you have to have a thick skin because not
everything that you do is goingto be necessarily correct and
you're going to make mistakes,right?
And people are going to callyou on those mistakes, whether
it's a family member, whetherit's another provider, whether
it's a consultant that said youdidn't do the right thing with
this patient.
You have to have a thick skinbecause there's usually not a

(44:40):
shift that goes by where we'renot yelled at or, conversely, we
don't express our anger or ourfrustration to somebody else on
the team, Because that's justthe nature of what we do.
So you have to have a thickskin.
You just have to have a shortmemory span, a short memory, and
you just have to just go on.
And just no hard feelings,right?
It's just like you know Ishould be insulted with how you

(45:03):
treated me, but I'm just goingto go on, and vice versa.
So, so if I, if I came off asbeing abrasive or hard on you or
whatever, sorry, but you knowthat's just the nature of what
we're doing.
So you have to have thick skin.
I think the other thing thatthat emergency physicians have
to have is they have to bedecisive, because you have to
just make decisions prettyquickly and some of those

(45:28):
decisions are not right, but youjust have to, you know, say
this is what we're going to tryand if it doesn't work,
hopefully it doesn't hurt thepatient.
I mean, it happensunfortunately, but if you decide
on one course of action, onemedication, unfortunately, but
if you decide on one course ofaction, one medication, one
certain test, and that's notgoing to give you the answer,

(45:48):
that's not the right thing to do, then you have to be able to
pivot.
So you have to be decisive, butyou also have to be flexible, I
think, in your thinking and youhave to be able to multitask.
So I think that those areprobably the three most
important aspects or tools thatyou can have as an emergency
physician.

Daniel Koo (46:07):
Wow, that's certainly something that I
appreciate about my field, wherewe don't need a lot of those
things.
Well, I mean, obviously we dohave to be decisive in some way
and things like that, but Idon't think it would be to that
degree, and I think it'simportant for people potentially

(46:30):
listening to this podcast andconsidering their path in
medicine to be aware of this andto see if they do have those
qualities or if they need towork on those things as well.
One of your key lessons wasabout burnout, and you've
mentioned that.
Burnout is real, so you need topace yourself.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Was there anything that youwent through that made you

(46:51):
realize this?

Kenneth Kwon (46:52):
Yes, it was COVID, 100% COVID.
Covid was really tough for alot of us.
You know, I can look back on itnow and even when I look back
on some of the moments that wehad, it kind of it brings back

(47:13):
some trauma, you know, I mean, Ithink there is a degree of PTSD
that all of us that kind ofwent through COVID has, and I'm
talking first responders, rightBecause?
Or the frontline healthcareworkers.
I'll give you a little story,if I may.
This was, you know, covidstarted sometime in, I think,

(47:35):
january of 2020.
It's COVID-19.
So it was, I think.
The first virus was isolated in2019, late.
So 2020, very early was whenthe first cases started
happening and there were deathshappening.
So we were all pretty scared,right, because we didn't know
what this virus was, we didn'tknow how to cure it, how to

(48:00):
manage it and we didn't reallyeven know how to minimize our
risk to this, except forpersonal protective equipment,
right.
Ppe, right, you probably heard.
You know everyone knows PPEbecause of COVID, right,
everyone knows what that meansnow, but there was a specific
day in the hospital, I would sayMarch in 2020, in the hospital,

(48:28):
I would say March in 2020, whenwe were all given just a
certain allocation of the N95masks because they were so hard
to get they were reallydifficult.
Everyone wanted it in theentire world, right?
And so the hospital only had acertain supply.
So they were only giving it outto the frontline people or the
essential people in the hospital, because a lot of the
non-essential people weren'teven coming into work, right,
right, because of the risk.
So in march I remember we wereall sitting around in a circle

(48:54):
because there were someemergency physicians, there were
some nurses, there wasanesthesiology hospitalist
doctors because they have tomanage the patients upstairs as
well as critical care doctors.
So we've had maybe a group of10 or 15 of us.
We all got our one N95 mask by3M, right, which is the

(49:18):
manufacturer, right.
And then we had this thingcalled a fit test, where there's
someone that you put on themask, because there's two straps
and there's a couple ofdifferent sizes.
You have to make sure thatyou're putting it on right and
you know how to pinch the noseand you have to make sure
there's not leakage in certainparts, because otherwise it's
really not helpful, it's goingto be useless, right?

(49:39):
So then they spray these littlethings to see if you could
smell it or if it, if itpermeates or not, and so it's
called a fit test.
So during that time, which wasprobably about a 30 minute
period of time, we're all kindof in a circle.
It was quiet.
There was no one was smiling,no one was joking, it was just
very somber because I think weall knew that that like wow,

(50:02):
this is we're're, we're, we'rerunning into that burning
building when everyone else isrunning out, right, and and I
think it was at that moment thatthat it really kind of.
I look back on it now and Ifelt it at that moment like wow,
like I almost felt like youwere.
You know, you're in themilitary and you're given a gun

(50:25):
and you're going to go to war,and they show you how to use the
gun and they say good luck, andthen you're off right.
So I just remember that mood inthat group at that moment was
just so somber, you know, andbecause we had no idea what was
going to happen, right, wedidn't know if we were going to
track COVID on our next shiftwith our next patient, right.

Daniel Koo (50:47):
And you don't know if you're going to spread it to
your family members and be on arespirator or die.

Kenneth Kwon (50:51):
You know, I've had some colleagues that that you
know were hospitalized in theICU and on an event for a
prolonged period of time andthat could have easily have been
me.
And, and you know, isolation athome.
I had to, you know, go home andand for nearly six or twelve
months, um, when I came home, Ihad to undress like in the, in

(51:13):
the laundry room or, like youknow, I guess a mud room, so to
speak, right, you and then, andthen I had to sleep in a
separate bed, I had to eat inthe corner of the table when my
family was eating at the othercorner, and so I had to do that
for six or 12 months and at thetime you don't really think
about it, you don't really thinkit's a big deal to say this is

(51:34):
what I signed up for and thefamily, we're kind of just
interacting kind of normally,otherwise, not really thinking,
hey, this is potentially reallycause I don't think, I don't
think I or my wife really wantedto kind of acknowledge that to
the kids, that that, hey, youknow, um, there's a big risk,
it's a big risk and so we'retrying to minimize our risk, but

(51:57):
you know, uh.
So I think I minimized whatsort of a toll that took on me,
because what happened afterwardswas when COVID kind of subsided
and then everyone kind of wentback to their routine and and
what was interesting was right,when COVID was dying down, like,

(52:19):
say, maybe a year after that,you know we were, we were all
heroes, right, superheroes,right, they call it.
You know frontline workers orsuper firemen, you know
policemen, you know emergencyfirst responders, emergency
physicians, people that workedin the emergency department.
They were all like touted asthese heroes, superheroes, and
so it was really kind ofuplifting and it kind of kept us

(52:40):
going for a while and to thepoint where even patients were
actually being very kind.
You know, instead of sayingthey were grateful, instead of
saying, damn it, doc, I had towait here for three hours,
what's wrong with you guys?
You know I should have beenseen sooner, right.
So they said, hey, thanks.
Well, thanks for what we do.
It's great, you know.
Hey, can you help me doing?
I mean, they were very kind.
I have to deal with with a lotof patient complaints from the

(53:03):
hospital Demanding Right, right,I have to call patients back, I
have to call parents back right.
That period of time, rightafter COVID for about a year,
year and a half, had the lowestnumber of complaints that I had
to respond to.

Daniel Koo (53:17):
I think everyone was glad that there was a
department that do what you do.

Kenneth Kwon (53:22):
But then fast forward, maybe about two or
three years ago, everything kindof went back to the pre-covid
kind of attitude of of, you know, I, I, I waited too long to see
you.
You know why am I paying thisridiculous amount of money for,
for a care that I didn't receive?
You know that sort of thing.
So that superhero status for ushas just gone.

(53:45):
It's gone right.
And I think a few years ago Ifelt it.
I felt it and I felt like, wow,that was tough.
And so that's when I knew I wasburnt out or I was burning out,
right.
I truly believe that we allhave a certain tread life, right
, I mean, and my treads werepretty bare a couple of years

(54:07):
ago and I think it was becauseof COVID, I know 100%, because
before COVID I thought I couldpractice emergency medicine for
another 10 years, so that wouldhave been well into my 60s,
right.
But now I'm pretty burnt outand that's why I'm doing less
shifts and I'm trying to managedoing mostly administrative

(54:32):
stuff and I'm trying to managethat burnout.
But I know, I know that I don'thave much left and so that's
why you know that retirement isin my near future because of
that, and that was really 100%,I think due to COVID, and that's
unfortunate because I reallythought that I could go a bit
longer.

Daniel Koo (54:53):
So I feel a little bit disappointed in myself, but
at the same time I think I haveto be true to what I feel, your
current conditions and I think alot of us, you know, during
COVID just stayed home, you know, and it's actually incredible
to hear your side of it.
You know the side of theemergency doctors, the front,

(55:17):
the frontline responders, and Ithink we probably can't
appreciate it as much because wejust don't know.
So I think it's incredible tokind of hear your side of it and
I think it was certainly notsomething that an average person
would experience.

Kenneth Kwon (55:34):
Well, yeah, I appreciate that, Daniel.
You know you mentioned that andI think I was mentioning this
show called er.
Back in the 90s that was prettypopular, right, and there's
actually a, a reboot of thatshow that just started on on max
, called the pit.
Oh, okay, that's the one thatyou and it stars, uh, one of the
actors that was in the originaler.

(55:56):
He was a, he was an intern, amedical student back then.
His name is no, while now he'sthe, he's the, he's the
attending who's the seasoned guyand it's actually a really good
show.
It's spot on, it's point onwith with kind of what we do
currently in emergency medicine.
Of course it's a lot more fast,it's faster paced and whatever

(56:16):
what happens in in that one hourepisode for us happens like in
a shift.
But if you ever really want toknow what we we are currently
doing in the emergencydepartment, that show the Pit is
really good, it's reallyauthentic.

Daniel Koo (56:28):
I'll have to take a look, and if they have a COVID
episode, I think that would beinteresting too if they are able
to kind of emulate that Wellpart of the story is that the
main guy.

Kenneth Kwon (56:42):
he is experiencing some flashbacks to his COVID.

Daniel Koo (56:45):
Oh wow, the COVID era which was four or five years
ago, and that's even more close.

Kenneth Kwon (56:51):
And just watching that sometimes I have to just
kind of pause it because it'sbringing back some emotional
feelings for me.
And it's interesting becauseall of my colleagues are kind of
talking about this show and Iguess the public is also kind of
thinking.
It's interesting too becausethere was a whole New York Times

(57:12):
article about this show and howthe emergency community is
really liking the show and it'sbecause it's done really well.

Daniel Koo (57:21):
I guess it's kind of like the feeling of being seen,
yes, and feeling like otherpeople can also know your story
I just so.

Kenneth Kwon (57:28):
I mean you could watch this podcast, or listen to
this podcast, or you just watchthis show please, uh, yeah,
watch, watch the podcast is whatI would say okay.

Daniel Koo (57:41):
one last thing I wanted to talk to you about was
one of your other key lessonsthat you mentioned was don't
identify only as a doctor.
Keep up with your otherpassions and relationships, and
those relationships are also.
You mentioned that they werelong lasting, so I wanted to ask
what are some of your otheridentities, other passions that

(58:03):
you're interested?

Kenneth Kwon (58:05):
in Hi, it sounds pretty mundane, but I identify
first and foremost as a husbandand a parent.
Being a physician or whateverprofession that you might do or
what I may have done, I think isimportant, but it never, ever,

(58:25):
dominated my life.
It was always a big part of mylife, but I think what I was
able to do was compartmentalizemy life at work and my life at
home and my relationship with mywife, with my kids, with my
parents, with my siblings, withmy friends, and so I think

(58:46):
that's so important because Iknow so many colleagues and
friends that say, oh, you know,I'm going to do this, I'm going
to work 15, 20 shifts a month,not even see my family, and then
in five years, when I've, youknow, when you have time yeah,
when I have time and I, you knowI am a little more financially
secure I'm going to, I'm goingto spend more time with them.

(59:06):
You know I think that's probablynot an ideal approach, um, but
I see it all the time.
So I think it's important tokind of keep your other
identities with you like reallymuch throughout your life,

(59:26):
identities with you like reallymuch throughout your life.
It's important, and I thinkthat because I was able to do
that, I feel like I could retireand feel good about myself.
I know that when you retire,some people feel lost because
they lose their identity.
Right, they've been doing onething, one thing for their
entire life, 40 years.
I never felt that way and Idon't feel that way right now.

(59:48):
So that's why I feel that I Ican retire without any regrets
or without knowing, knowing thatI'm not going to feel that way
and I don't have any suggestionsor guidance on how you do that.
I think it's just a matter ofprioritizing what's important to
you and I think that you justcan't lose sight on the

(01:00:12):
important things in your lifethat you find rewarding and
interesting.
I think that if you just try toput it away and forget about it
for a while.
That's not healthy.
It always has to be in yourlife somehow, and so I think to
kind of dovetail on that.
I think I'm going to have moreof an issue trying to keep that

(01:00:36):
growth mindset to try to do newthings and to try to meet new
people.
Because I think when you enterthis stage in my life where you
know you're waiting off of workand and you know like what's
next, right and and would Irather you know, for instance,
music wise, would I rather hearthe same music that I heard in
the eighties and nineties, orwhat I, what I want to hear

(01:00:57):
something new.
I would say that I want to hearstuff in the eighties, from
nineties probably would say thatI want to hear stuff in the 80s
, from the 90s, probably eightout of ten times, and only hear
the new stuff like 20 percent ofthe time.
Right where, whereas, like mywife is very different, she's,
she has more like, hey, you know, life is all about new things.
So she, she's more like theother way, she, she just rolls
her eyes whenever she sees melistening to my old 80s or

(01:01:18):
watching the same movies overand over again, or or or seeing
the same friends that I've seenfor 20 or 30 years, instead of
maybe seeing somebody that wejust met recently that we want
to get to know better.
So that's something that Ithink I have to work on as I
enter this next stage in my life, but I feel fortunate that I

(01:01:38):
could identify with other thingsthan just my profession.

Daniel Koo (01:01:43):
Is there something about being a doctor or being in
the medical field that kind ofmakes it difficult to prioritize
other things.

Kenneth Kwon (01:01:52):
Yeah, it's the time.

Daniel Koo (01:01:53):
I think it's a time commitment and that's probably
the number one thing Is thatsomething that's kind of
structured in the hospital thatmakes it difficult, or do you
think it's more of like puttingin more time just helps you
advance your career?
I think it's it's.

Kenneth Kwon (01:02:08):
It's what you just said, um, to be a doctor is is
takes a long time right, and ittakes a lot of work.
You have to pull all-nighters,you have to study hard, you have
to, you know and you have toyou know, you know be a social
person and you have to haveother.
I mean, it's like anyprofession is like that, but I
think in medicine, it's veryclear that you're expected to do

(01:02:32):
all these things and do it at avery high level, and that takes
time.
That takes time, and so youhave to forego other things, and
those things that tend to goare are your relationships, um,
are some of your interests thatyou know.
People always say I should.
You know I need to work outmore, but I don't have time,

(01:02:52):
right, everyone says that, right, but you know that's it's.
It's another thing, and and but, whatever profession you're in,
I don't think anyone looks backon their life and said that I
should work more.
I should work more.
They always say I should workless, and so all these habits
really start when you're younger.
So I know that a lot of theselisteners are probably going to

(01:03:13):
be at this point in their liveswhere they're trying to figure
out what they're going to do,what their path is going to be.
And I would say that you can'tforsake these other things in
your life just to pick a certainpath and say this is what I'm
going to be.
And I would say that you can'tforsake these other things in
your life just to pick a certainpath and say this is what I'm
going to do and everything elseis going to go by the wayside.

Daniel Koo (01:03:28):
One of my last questions what's one piece of
advice you would give toyourself?
I want to say, maybe when youwere considering med school, at
that point in time when youmaybe weren't sure where to go,
what would you kind of tell them, time when you maybe weren't?

Kenneth Kwon (01:03:43):
sure where to go.
What would you kind of tellthem?
I would probably say to not beafraid to take chances.
You know, I say that with thecaveat of you know you have to
think out your decisions.
But once those decisions arethought out and you're pretty
sure of what you're going to do,just go in 100%, even though

(01:04:03):
you know that it may not benecessarily the safe thing to do
.
And I say this because there'sa lot of times in my life where
there's forks, right.
There's a few times in yourlife where you know that if you
pick something it might lead toa completely different outcome.
Right, and it took me a longtime to sometimes make those

(01:04:27):
choices right and it wastes sometime for me.
Had I been more confident inmyself, had I wanted to take a
chance sooner, I think I mighthave saved some time in my life.
Interesting, I think I mighthave saved some time in my life.
Interesting.
I think there are three types ofpeople or how people make

(01:04:48):
decisions about what to do.
I'm going to use swimming as anexample.
There's someone who just jumpsinto the pool.
They don't know what thetemperature is like, they don't
know how deep it is, they justjump in.
Those are the big risk takers,right?
I think those are the ones that, and those are the ones that I
think a lot of maybe your guestsin the previous podcasts were

(01:05:11):
like, kind of like the youngerones that said, hey, I'm just
going to go for this, I'm goingto go for this small business,
I'm going to take this risk, I'mgoing to take a chance with
this industry that I have noidea.
Entrepreneurial type that I haveno idea.
The entrepreneurial type, yeah,the entrepreneurial type.
So that's one type of person,right, and I totally respect
that and I think that's great,right.
Then there's the type of peoplethat are very careful, right,

(01:05:32):
they're going to feel the water.
They're going to say, oh, it'sdeep, but it's not that deep,
and then they're going to slowlykind of go into the pool, like
with their feet, and then theiryou know, their, their body, and
then they're going to get to alevel where, oh, okay, I'm fully
in the water, right, that's thevery careful approach to to a
decision to go into the pool,right.
And then there's someone likeme, who, who, I'm going to feel

(01:05:55):
the water a little bit, and onceI feel that the water hey, this
, this water's okay, then I'mgoing to jump in like headfirst
or whatever right.
So I think that's kind of theway I am.
But I think that growing up Iwas kind of more the diving in.

Daniel Koo (01:06:11):
Without even testing when I was younger right.

Kenneth Kwon (01:06:12):
But then when I took the medical path I became
more conservative, a little bitmore risk-averse and I was kind
of more toward the slowly goinginto the pool right.
But I think after these fewdecades I've come to the steady
state where I think that's thekind of swimmer I am.
I think that's the kind ofdecision maker that I am.

(01:06:33):
And had I known what I know now, back then I think I would have
told my younger self inmedicine, who was kind of going
in slowly to you know, just gowith your gut and just do it,
just go for it.
Do your research, do your duediligence, make sure it's you
know, kind of what you want todo and then go for it.

Daniel Koo (01:06:51):
To summarize a little bit about what we talked
about today, you know, one thingthat I'm really taking with me
today is committing to yourdecisions and taking a bit of
risk, because we're young and,you know, because things are
going to work out generally,with the caveat that, you know,
we test the waters first.
The other one is, you know, notbeing too lost in your work and

(01:07:14):
making sure you invest in otherthings as well, with your family
, your relationships, yourhealth, I think, as well.
Another thing is really knowingwhat medicine is, and in this
case, in this episode, we talkedabout emergency medicine, and I
think that is going to be a bigtakeaway for a lot of the
listeners.
Considering med school andconsidering many different types

(01:07:37):
of medicine.
I know there's going to bepeople out there listening to
this and thinking, oh, wow,that's going to be exciting, or
other people listening to thisand saying, oh, that's too much
for me.
So I think those kinds ofinsights and takeaways are going
to be invaluable to ourlisteners.
So I thank you so much for yourtime and your insights.
I learned so much.

Kenneth Kwon (01:07:58):
Thanks, Daniel.
Well, it was a pleasure talkingto you and you are really good
at summarizing things.
You are a podcaster for areason.
It's because you just tookwhatever the hour and a half two
hour conversation that you hadand you just basically nailed it
down to those three or fourthings that I think are spot on.
So keep up the great work.

(01:08:19):
I hope you know, I hope andwish you continued success in
this.

Daniel Koo (01:08:24):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I mean, without guests like you, you know, this podcast is
impossible, so I reallyappreciate it.
You're welcome.