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July 10, 2025 56 mins

What if your biggest failure became the foundation for your life's purpose? Dr. Angela Pham's journey from academic struggle to mental health occupational therapist reveals the transformative power of resilience and self-discovery.

As a first-generation college student from a low-income single-parent household, Dr. Pham entered USC with high expectations but soon faced a devastating setback. "I decided to drop out of my bio class with a W," she shares, recalling how this first academic failure became a pivotal turning point. Rather than giving up, she began exploring occupational therapy courses that taught her coping strategies and lifestyle modifications. "I figured out how my mind works, ways to make myself thrive... that inspired me to pursue the career that I chose."

Today, Dr. Pham runs her own telehealth practice specializing in mental health occupational therapy—an area pursued by only about 3% of OTs in the United States. She works with clients experiencing ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression, and burnout, using a neuro-affirming approach that addresses executive functioning, motivation, habit formation, and stress management. Her methodology breaks overwhelming tasks into manageable steps through environmental cues and personalized strategies.

The conversation offers practical wisdom for anyone struggling with daily functioning. Dr. Pham explains that occupational therapy targets any activity people need or want to do but find challenging—from cleaning rooms to managing work-life balance. "The hardest part is starting," she notes, sharing techniques like creating visual reminders and treating personal growth as an experiment. Her innovative approaches, such as having a young client pretend to be a vlogger while organizing, demonstrate how creativity can transform mundane tasks into engaging experiences.

Whether you're facing your own challenges or supporting someone through theirs, Dr. Pham's story reminds us that resilience isn't just about bouncing back—it's about using our struggles to create meaningful impact for others. Listen now to discover how small, intentional changes can lead to profound transformation.

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Episode Transcript

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Angela Pham (00:00):
I decided to drop out of my bio class with a W,
and I don't know if people knowthis, but apparently if you have
a W from dropping a class, itlooks bad, and so I thought
there was a lot of weight tothat in a bad light.
But lo and behold, I ended upgoing into grad school anyways,
so that W was actually not thatserious.

(00:20):
It's just in that time frame ofmy life it felt very serious,
and so I wanted to be veryhonest and say I experienced
failures.
That was my first timeexperiencing an academic failure
in my life, and so that was,you know, kind of a turning
point where I decided whatshould I do now?
What can I do?

(00:41):
And so I started really focusingon my mental health and I took
a class under the occupationaltherapy school, which was the
start of everything.
I started learning and applyingstrategies to my life on how to
improve my lifestyle, and itworked.
I figured out how my mind works, I figured out ways to make
myself thrive, and I realizedthat you can learn coping

(01:03):
strategies.
It may not come naturally, butthere are ways to always find
things that work for you, andthat inspired me to want to
pursue the career that I chose.

Daniel Koo (01:14):
Hey, welcome back to my Perfect Path.
For those of you who are new,I'm your host, daniel Koo, and I
welcome you to season two.
For me, at large, pivotalmoments of my life, such as
applying to new colleges,applying to new jobs or
determining what next careermove is right for me I spend
time researching and findingmentorship to determine what was

(01:36):
the best path for me.
I knew that this struggle wasnot isolated to me.
Everyone struggles with this,simply because we cannot predict
the future.
However, I found something thatis second best to predicting
the future it's learning fromthose ahead of our career and
from those who've seen more andexperienced more.
After all, there are not thatmany problems that have not been
solved yet.

(01:56):
If you've ever felt unsureabout your next career move,
you're in the right place.
Hey, I'm excited to welcome DrAngela Pham to the podcast.
Angela is a licensedoccupational therapist who

(02:19):
specializes in mental health, anarea pursued by only about 3%
of occupational therapists inthe United States.
She chose this rare specialtyto focus on helping individuals
with ADHD, autism, anxiety,depression and burnout through
telehealth practice, as shestood up on her own.
Today's episode is called myResilient Path.
As a first-generation collegestudent, she earned three

(02:41):
degrees from USC, despite theinitial academic stress.
Her clinical residency, workingwith formerly incarcerated
individuals with severe mentalillness, shaped her
trauma-informed approach to care.
In this episode, you'll learnhow to turn academic struggles
into strengths, why treatingyourself as an experiment
accelerates growth, andpractical strategies for

(03:03):
breaking down overwhelming goalsinto manageable steps.
Her story shows that resilienceisn't just about bouncing back.
It's about using yourchallenges to create meaningful
impact for others.
Today, I'm excited to welcome DrAngela Pham to the podcast.
Angela is a licensedoccupational therapist who

(03:24):
specializes in mental health, anarea pursued by only about 3%
of occupational therapists inthe United States.
She runs her own telehealthpractice focused on helping
individuals with ADHD, autism,anxiety, depression and burnout
to implement a sustainablelifestyle to support their daily
functioning.
I think what makes Dr Pham'sapproach distinct is her neural,

(03:48):
affirming, holistic lens thataddresses executive functioning,
motivation, habit formation,sensory needs and stress
management, and beyond herprofessional work.
I think you do a great jobidentifying with resilience as
your core quality, and that'ssomething that we can really
learn from today.
Welcome to my Perfect Path.

(04:09):
I'm thrilled to have you hereon the podcast to share your
resilient path with us today.

Angela Pham (04:15):
Thank you for having me, Hello everyone.

Daniel Koo (04:23):
As my first question I want to ask you your
telehealth practice focuses onhelping clients with ADHD,
autism and anxiety and burnout.
What made you choose this veryspecific niche within
occupational therapy?

Angela Pham (04:31):
Yeah, so in general , mental health within
occupational therapy is alreadya niche in itself and so my
areas of expertise, which youjust listed, is kind of a more
specific diagnosis type ofapproach for people to resonate
with me and whether or not theywant to work with me.
But in general, being a mentalhealth occupational therapist

(04:55):
means that I basically helppeople get back to doing the
things that they need to do orhave to do, and my approach is
basically through lifestylebehavioral changes, so anyone
who needs a lifestyle orbehavioral change could benefit
from occupational therapy.

Daniel Koo (05:12):
I think last time we talked about you know if you
want to work out, but youhaven't been doing that for a
while and you feel like it'skind of debilitating in a way,
where you really do want to doit but you don't.
Or maybe it's cleaning yourroom.
Are those things also somethingthat you cover?

Angela Pham (05:28):
Yes, so that is a part of lifestyle management,
right?
And I think the example that Igave to you regarding working
out more is breaking down thesteps into an easy step as
possible, and I think I told you, for example, setting aside
workout shoes or workout clothesthe night before or maybe hours
before you plan on doing itwill help alert you and cue you

(05:52):
to reminding you oh, my workoutclothes are out on my bed.
That means I wanted to work out.
It's already there, so I mightas well try and work out.
So those are all cues,occupational therapy strategies
that would motivate people, orat least motivate them a little
bit more, into wanting tocomplete that task.

Daniel Koo (06:09):
I guess that's just a part of what you do, right?
So we'll get into some of thetips and tricks on how to
achieve your goals and thingslike that as well.
But right now, what is kind oflike the state of your career,
what have you been doing beforeand what is kind of like
something that you're working onright now?

Angela Pham (06:27):
Yes.
So right now I started aprivate practice where I am the
sole practitioner for mypractice and it's kind of
touching upon what you mentionedwhen you introduced me.
I work with clients who need tomake lifestyle behavioral
changes and these clients canhave ADHD, autism, anxiety,
burnout, stress management ingeneral.

(06:47):
But what inspired me to want tostart my own practice was
actually my experience from myformer job, where I was working
with clients kind of in the samepopulation and they worked with
people across the lifespan.
So I was working with collegestudents who needed better
studying habits to prepare formidterms or finals.

(07:08):
I was working with workingprofessionals who needed to
manage work and life at home.
I was also working withexecutives who needed better
time management and workprioritization strategies which
I was also able to apply as anoccupational therapist using my
lens and retirees who were theywere balancing more of life

(07:30):
transitions and how toprioritize leisure and leisure
being productive as well.
So my experience from that jobgave me the confidence to want
to try and start my own thing.

Daniel Koo (07:43):
So it seems like you've, you know, already had a
very wide range of clients thatenabled you to kind of gain the
confidence to make your ownpractice.
Is it pretty common to makeyour own practice in your field,
or is it?
Is it a very difficult thing tokind of stand up?

Angela Pham (07:57):
Yeah, I love that question because, as mentioned
earlier, so mental health OT isalready a niche right.
So I think mental health OTsstarting their own practice is
kind of a more rare thing to seeright now.
But on the flip side, ots ingeneral, ots being occupational
therapists they do have theirown practices.

(08:17):
It's just more of a groupsetting and group practice, as
in other disciplines, are alsoin that company with them and
they are more in the traditionalsettings.
So what traditional OT normallylooks like?

Daniel Koo (08:32):
Tell us about how you spend your day.
I just want to know what yourday-to-day looks like.
Do?
You have a lot of control overyour time.
Do you work remotely and thingslike that to kind of highlight
the benefits of this career andthis path.

Angela Pham (08:45):
Yeah.
So I'm glad you asked thatbecause I think right now, in my
current stage of working on mybusiness, as I last mentioned to
you when we saw each other Iwas wrapping up the backend
stuff of my business, backendbeing the legal stuff getting a
business license, malpracticeinsurance, the software that I

(09:06):
want to use for my business andnow that I'm more public now.
So I finished having a website,I'm more focused on the
marketing aspect and that lookslike adding myself onto
directories psychologydirectories and maybe people are
more familiar with one of thembeing psychology.
Today, when you Google searchtherapist near me, usually a

(09:30):
directory will pop up for you tofind therapists on that.
So now I'm more focused on themarketing aspect while also
juggling a caseload, caseloadbeing the clients I'm seeing
right now.

Daniel Koo (09:38):
So currently you know there's a lot on your plate
because you have to stand upyour own business.
You have to do your ownmarketing, all the quote,
unquote, boring stuff with thelegal, making sure you have
insurance and everything.
Do you enjoy that right now ordo you feel like it's a?
You know it's a lot, it's a biglift.

Angela Pham (09:57):
I think, lots of mixed emotions.
Mixed emotions because this isthe first time I'm doing this,
so I feel very new and I feellike there is no one direction
to go and I don't have all theanswers.
So I'm kind of riding the waveof feeling like kind of
ambiguous territory, while alsotrying to do a lot of research.

(10:18):
So I feel mixed emotions oflike some confidence on some
days, some uncertainty on otherdays, and I think, in general, I
am enjoying it though, becauseI am learning something new and
I think I I think I embodygrowth mindset a lot, where I
try to improve in certain areasfor my personal development, and

(10:39):
I think I mean I've alwayswanted to own a business, so I'm
more interested in seeing wherethis goes and hopeful I'm
hopeful that I'll get a lot outof this and we'll see what
happens.

Daniel Koo (10:50):
Yeah, I really liked that attitude.
Obviously, myself, I'm reallyinterested in growth mindset as
well.
You know, this whole journeywith the podcast is, you know,
trying to find my own path aswell, as well as learning from
others.
The episode title today isnamed my Resilient Path.
Title today is named myResilient Path and I want to ask
you why you chose the wordresilient.

Angela Pham (11:20):
Yes.
So I chose the word resilientbecause I think it really
represents all the challenges Ifaced to get to where I am at
now, and that can stem as farback as childhood upbringing, to
pivotal decisions and pathwaysin my life, like through college
, grad school and even now,where I chose to start my own
practice.

Daniel Koo (11:35):
Let's get into that a little bit.
Could you tell us about yourchildhood, how you grew up and
maybe, if there were someobstacles or challenges, what
those were?

Angela Pham (11:44):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so growing up I came froma low-income single-parent
household with three brothers,so I was the only girl in my
family, which can bring about alot of challenges in itself,
because I fought with mybrothers a lot.

Daniel Koo (12:03):
Were you the firstborn.

Angela Pham (12:04):
No, I'm the third child, so.
I had two older brothers and oneyounger, and it was a constant
battlefield, but also just thechallenges that come with.
I'm a second generationVietnamese, chinese, american
and I'm a first generationcollege student, so there were a
lot of resources that I did notnecessarily have or were given

(12:26):
to me right away, and so I feltlike with my childhood it was a
lot of navigating through lifeon my own, it felt like, and
being able to identify how to beresourceful, how to find
answers for myself, because mymom was not in the position to
be able to answer that for me.
She was very busy, you know,working and providing for me and

(12:49):
my brothers, and so I becamekind of, in a sense, independent
early on.
But that taught me a lot aboutbeing disciplined.
That contributed to my grit,where I am able to persevere and
work through challenges whilealso remaining hopeful that
there are better things at theend of the tunnel, while also

(13:10):
remaining hopeful that there arebetter things at the end of the
tunnel, and if I work hardenough then I can get those
things, and I think I manifestedthose into the person that I am
today.

Daniel Koo (13:17):
Something that's interesting is that you know you
and I went to the sameundergrad, so you know, fight on
.
You know we're from USC, butyou know our background is very
different.
You know, I went to aninternational school, uh in
korea, where you know there werea ton of resources, um to go to
college, um, but I thought itwas super interesting that we
ended up uh in the same collegeand I think that just goes to

(13:38):
show, you know, how much effortyou put into your career while
having different resources, um,and I think the the lessons that
you learn from that.
I think today I want want to gointo so that if people are in
similar situations or, you know,it could just be the fact that
you come from a differentcountry and you don't have those
resources what kind of valuesyou should have, what kind of

(14:01):
qualities you should embody inorder for you to get to this
kind of stage for you.
What stood out to me is that youearned three degrees from USC.
I think that's pretty rare andyou did that in such a short
timeframe, and I thought thatwas something that really showed
your resilient path and somequalities that I think I really

(14:21):
want to learn from you.
So can you tell us about whatthose degrees were and if you
ever intended to do that, or isthat something that just kind of
came along the way?

Angela Pham (14:30):
I love that question.
So my degrees I got abachelor's in psychology at USC
for undergrad and then I got amaster's in occupational therapy
at USC as well, and then Idecided to pursue a doctorate,
an advanced doctorate degree,for that was only a year, also

(14:51):
at USC for occupational therapy,and I was not intent.
I didn't come into USC thinkingI was going to get three
degrees from the school.
If anything.
I want to be quite honest andsay my, despite performing
really well in high school andbeing a highieving student, I
struggled a lot in my first yearat USC.

(15:15):
I came in as a spring admit,which means I started school in
January.
So I already felt kind ofbehind when I first started.
And I came in as a pre-medstudent, thinking I was trying
to aim for med school and as aresult I had to take pre-med
classes, so like bio, and thatwas a struggle.

(15:38):
I had no idea what weederclasses were or how that felt.
But I think I was weeded outbecause I mean, I'm not, I'm not
in med school, I'm not amedical doctor, I just you know,
I really struggled because Ithink I had a difficult time
adapting to new environments and, compounded with imposter

(15:59):
syndrome.
Everyone around me in collegewas so smart.
People were coming from alldifferent walks of life,
different backgrounds, and myclassmates were very intelligent
individuals.

Daniel Koo (16:11):
I think also if you're in the pre-med kind of
group, a lot of these studentsend up being very high
performers in high school, ontrack to go to med school.
So they're very intense.

Angela Pham (16:21):
Yes, and I think this is my first time being
exposed to really high caliberindividuals who were destined
for med school.
Some of these individuals hadparents who are doctors, so they
knew from the beginning theywere going to become doctors,
and they are doctors now, andthat's awesome.
It's just, I think, forfreshman year, angela, she had a

(16:42):
really hard time balancing thenew workload at USC.
Being away from home, that's anew change and, yeah, like I
felt really insecure.
I really struggled withimposter syndrome and I think
that also was the start of myjourney of having anxiety.
So a lot of that compoundedtogether, and so the beginning

(17:04):
of college was really hard.
However, I decided one day thatI wanted to change my life.
I was tired of feeling veryanxious.
I wanted to be able tounderstand what are things I can
do, steps I can take to turn mylife around.
I decided to drop out of my bioclass with a W, and I don't

(17:25):
know if people know this, butapparently if you have a W from
dropping a class, it looks bad,and so I thought there was a lot
of weight to that in a badlight.
But, lo and behold, I ended upgoing into grad school anyways,
so that W was actually not thatserious.
It's just in that time frame ofmy life it felt very serious,

(17:46):
and so I wanted to be veryhonest and say I experienced
failures.
That was my first timeexperiencing an academic failure
in my life, and so that was,you know, kind of a turning
point where I decided whatshould I do now?
What can I do?
And so I started reallyfocusing on my mental health and
I took a class under theoccupational therapy school,

(18:10):
which was the start ofeverything.
I started learning and applyingstrategies to my life on how to
improve my lifestyle, and itworked.
I figured out how my mind works, I figured out ways to make
myself thrive, and I realizedthat you can learn coping
strategies.
It may not come naturally, butthere are ways to always find
things that work for you, andthat inspired me to want to

(18:32):
pursue the career that I chose.

Daniel Koo (18:34):
I think it's great that you know your field is
helping people achieve theirgoals and overcome certain
things or like challenges thatyou may face, and it's something
that you've already done, so Ithink that really helps you
become a much more strongerperson that can help other
people Also.
You know, I think we all gothrough that.

(18:55):
You know that phase of failure.
I remember my first W at USC.
It was like some linear algebracourse that I guess it was just
too much for me at the time,yeah, and I thought the world
was crumbling and I called mysister.
I was like I'm a failure, Idon't think I can do this, but

(19:16):
it ends up being all okay.
And I learned a lot then andthere as well.
At the time my sister was likeGPA is forever, so you better
get your crap together, but alsothat it's going to be okay at
the same time, Like it's youknow you have to pay attention,
but you know it's not the end ofthe world.

Angela Pham (19:36):
Yeah.

Daniel Koo (19:37):
To me it seems like you really fast-tracked the
degrees that you got.
Oh yeah, you know, consideringthat you're still very young and
you're able to start your ownpractice, it's very intense.
I want to talk about, maybe,your former residency as well
and how you were able to kind ofcontinue your kind of success

(19:58):
throughout that company or thatfirm and to be able to create
your own firm as well.

Angela Pham (20:03):
So, yes, I guess my path is more traditional, with
an OT Occupational therapy.
Grad programs are typically twoyears and I chose to get the
doctorate for another one year,but it was only because I had my
master's at USC, so it wasadvanced in a way.

(20:23):
I already had some credits thatwere able to be transferable.
And during my doctorate year weare required to do a clinical
residency, and this residencytypically is supposed to kind of
be a specialization, if youwould like to make that a
specialization.
And so throughout grad school Ihad a lot of internships that
were in mental health and thatmade me really reconsider what

(20:47):
setting I wanted to work in.
Originally.
I came into OT school thinkingI was going to work with
children with developmentaldelays or disabilities and,
however, because of myinternships I started learning
more about how OT looks like inmental health, and so that
influenced me to do a mentalhealth residency and, honestly,

(21:09):
the residency changed my lifebecause I was working with
formerly incarceratedindividuals with severe mental
illness like schizophrenia, andseeing how OT was able to change
their lives I got, I think, alot of my clinical experiences
early on were really shaped andformed through this residency.
Experiences early on werereally shaped and formed through

(21:33):
this residency and thatexperience landed me my next job
, which was the job where Iworked in the outpatient mental
health clinic specializing inADHD, autism, neurodivergent
individuals and being able toget all my experiences across a
lifespan at that job.
So my residency allowed me toget the job that I had, which
inspired me to start my privatepractice.
They're all connected.

Daniel Koo (21:54):
It seems like your career.
At this point it's really kindof gaining speed because you
know you already got youreducation, you're in training.
But to get to this point, whatwas kind of going through your
head at the time, is it?
I'm just curious what yourdrive is so is it kind of like
the pressure to do well?

Angela Pham (22:14):
or is it?

Daniel Koo (22:15):
you know the hopes of being able to help a lot of
people yeah, it's a.

Angela Pham (22:20):
It's a mix of both, because at this point in my
life, I would say, my prefrontalcortex, like my frontal lobe,
has been almost nearingdevelopment and I realized that
that has been developing once.
I started realizing that I'mable to gain perspectives and
think about other people'sperspectives more.
Then I started realizing thatto me success feels like

(22:45):
alignment of my personal valuesinto my everyday life, everyday
life including my professionallife, and so I value that growth
mindset, I valueself-development.
I really feel, I think I'm anempathetic person, so I really
resonate with people and theirexperiences, and I would say

(23:07):
connecting with people is not ahard thing for me to do.
And so mental help I alreadyknew that was a calling of mine
at this point.
And so choosing this career orchoosing this specialty and
specifically starting my ownprivate practice is because I
believe in myself and I knowthat I can help people achieve

(23:29):
the goals that they want to do.

Daniel Koo (23:31):
Let's kind of double click into what you just said
about your calling.
When did you realize that?
And if someone wants to findtheir own calling, what's an
advice that you can give?

Angela Pham (23:43):
So I'll answer the first part.
I got to the point where I amat now because of all the
self-reflection that I wasforced to do when I started
reconciling the reality that Ihad anxiety in college.
That is a part of me and I'vecome to accept that.
However, it took a lot ofself-reflection.
It took a lot of sitting withmyself and being at peace with

(24:04):
myself, and that was my collegeyears.
In grad school, I started tofeel more comfortable with my
skin, my identity, and I starteddoing or being more comfortable
with the uncomfortable sittingwith yes, I have anxiety, but I
also wanna do this, I also cando that, and so grad school was

(24:26):
when I felt like I was finallythe person who I am.
I feel very comfortable in myskin, and so grad school was
more so the gaining experience.
Now that I have reached thatstage.
And then now, present day, Iknow exactly who I am, and I
feel like that's because it wascredited to years of
self-reflection.

Daniel Koo (24:47):
I think that's pretty rare for people to do at
that age.
You know, I'm still figuringout who I am.
Is there like a certainpractice that you did Like?
Is this something that youlearned during occupational
therapy or how did you get aboutlike doing that?
Are you sitting in your roomlike writing something down?
I'm curious.

Angela Pham (25:05):
Yes, no great question, because it looks
different for every person.
Um, some people love meditation.
Mindfulness, meditation was ais a huge thing for some people.
But some people cannot meditateand it's not their type, their
cup of tea, which is totallyfine.
And then there are othermethods, such as journaling, is
one.
For me personally, it's a lot ofI call it daydreaming.

(25:28):
It's kind of meditation in away, but I like to positively
imagine a future that I can seemyself in, or I like to hope for
myself and believe in thingsfor myself and also being
comfortable with being in myhead.
So I'd have a lot of internaldialogue, conversations with

(25:48):
myself and getting to knowmyself, which meditation is more
so of the sitting, with how youfeel and acknowledging that
it's happening.
So that's kind of why I preferthe daydreaming route, where I'm
entertaining my thoughts andbeing okay with, once again, the
unsettling feeling of anxietyor uncertainty.
So there are different ways toreflect, there are different

(26:09):
ways to ponder, in a sense, andthe thing is it takes a lot of
time because you can't just havewell, some people can, you
can't just have a one moment,aha, and suddenly inspiration
and motivation hits you all atonce.

Daniel Koo (26:25):
I am self-actualized now.

Angela Pham (26:27):
But it takes some time to also build that courage,
like build the diligence andbuild the momentum to enact
change.

Daniel Koo (26:36):
I think so kind of going back to your career track
when you went to Spectrum PsychLA, what were some of the things
that you learned there, or someof the unexpected challenges
that you faced by working in afirm with all other people?

Angela Pham (26:53):
Yes, so lots of great experiences that I have
with Spectrum Psych LA.
I learned how well first it wasmy real not first time
experiencing working on a team,because technically everywhere
in my mental health experiencesthere was a clinical behavioral
health team, but with SpectrumPsych in particular it was

(27:15):
because it was my first time inan outpatient mental health
setting that was moretraditional mental health,
meaning I was their second OTever to be at the company and
the first one was actually aformer professor of mine from my
grad program.
Yeah, so the connections Iguess was real, the Trojan

(27:38):
connection.
But also I think my residencyprepared me for that job and
Spectrum Psych taught me a lot.
It taught me, it gave me theexperiences to work with, like I
said, different types of people.
It taught me, it gave me theexperiences to work with, like I
said, different types of people, different populations, and it
allowed me to also experiencetelehealth as a platform.
And I think all of those skillsequipped me for wanting me to

(28:02):
start my own practice.

Daniel Koo (28:04):
I also want to ask you what was the process for you
to apply to?
You know a firm in the world ofOT and you know how important
connections are you know, forexample, in tech companies we do
have a referral program thatwill at least get the recruiters
to look at your resume, becauseyou know it's online

(28:25):
application.
There's, you know, tens ofthousands of applications.

Angela Pham (28:26):
Yeah.

Daniel Koo (28:27):
That's one way to make it stand out a little bit.
Is there a similar kind ofprocess for you guys, or is it
kind of word of mouth?
You know, referrals?

Angela Pham (28:37):
So referrals would be more word of mouth.
But I think in specifics toSpectrum Psych LA, I think they
were looking for someone who hada doctorate and I think out of
the applicants only a few had adoctorate degree and I think I
was the only one from USC and Iwas the only one who happened to

(29:00):
know the OT working there, myformer professor, because she
remembered my name and I thinkshe also remembered how I looked
.

Daniel Koo (29:08):
So she yeah, because it was a virtual class.

Angela Pham (29:11):
And so she decided to, I think, look me up and I
guess that connection wasbasically a bridge for me and I
was able to get the interviewbecause there was a connection
there Within OT.
I don't know if necessarilyit's hard to get a job as an OT,
because I think OTs are high indemand right now actually

(29:33):
within the workforce, but Ithink to get a job that's highly
coveted or a job that youreally want, then connections
and referrals do matter.

Daniel Koo (29:44):
Yeah, I can really relate to that.
I think, you know, even in thetech space, with a referral,
there's a high chance thatyou'll at least get an interview
or at least be given a chanceto even show your skills, or at
least be given a chance to evenshow your skills.
So maybe we can talk a littlebit about you know, standing out
and being, you know like, maybego into why that professor
might have looked at you.

(30:05):
Were there any qualities thatyou were able to showcase during
your class, or do you think,what do you think is the reason
that that person chose you?

Angela Pham (30:21):
the reason that that person chose you.
So I think, well, during mygrad program I did do an
extracurricular that myprofessor was in charge of, so
she may have also remembered memore because of the
extracurricular that I did.
However, I'm leaning moretowards that.
I think I was able to get aninterview because I was a USC
alum and I had a doctoratedegree and I think out of the OT

(30:45):
programs, I think USC has areally strong mental health
focus on theories and thatfoundation.
I think you can safely assumethat if someone comes from a USC
OT program, they are prettywell equipped to do mental
health, and so I think myprofessor decided to give me an
interview.
Because of that bet, the oddswere in my favor and the

(31:08):
interview went really well, andmaybe that's also different
reasons for why.

Daniel Koo (31:13):
So it seems like there's, you know, many factors
that go into this and you knowhaving connections is pretty
important.
You know doing well in thoseclasses, obviously, and
potentially you know standingout by doing extracurriculars.
You know that's going to helpyou a lot.
Let's go into a little bitabout your you know transition
into your own practice.

(31:34):
What were kind of like thecalculated risks that you took
and you would have had to adaptin traditional OT techniques to
work effectively in a remoteenvironment?
I think that would be veryinteresting to talk to as well.

Angela Pham (31:48):
Oh, good questions.
So calculated risk.
I actually was not intending tostart a practice so soon.
If I'm being completely honest,and circumstances led up to me
wanting to start my own practice, it was me coming to an end

(32:09):
with my former job becausethings happened where I realized
that it wasn't sustainable forme to keep the job as a
full-time job.
However, I also signed anon-compete with them, meaning I
cannot start my own thing.
So I left the company andessentially took a sabbatical

(32:31):
where I rested and mysubconscious brain was working a
lot on what should I do?
Should I apply to traditionalOT jobs, traditional mental
health OT jobs, or should I tryand do something different?
And so during my sabbatical, Ithought about it a lot.
I essentially motivated myselfto take that risk.

(32:55):
That risk being, I'll leaveaside some time for me to try
and start this, and if it's notturning out to be what I want it
to be, I can always go back toa traditional OT job.
There are plenty of traditionalOT jobs out there, and so I knew
there was a cushion of somesort, and so I decided to adopt
that YOLO, you only live oncementality, and because I was

(33:19):
fresh out of my job.
I still had the confidence and Istill know how to engage with
clients.
It's still very fresh and,honestly, it was a matter of I
should do this sooner than laterif I decide to commit to it.
And so I was finished thinkingabout it and the hardest part is
starting, as anything is, and Idecided to do baby steps.

(33:42):
I worked on things like onestep at a time, googled and
researched the one topic at atime and slowly I started
finishing up my to-do list forback end things, and that's kind
of why I, or how I, came tostart my private practice.
It wasn't intentional, it wasmore so.

(34:02):
The universe kind of createdthis path for me and I decided
to answer and be okay with whathappens at the end.
I don't know for sure 100%.
Am I going to keep this in thefuture or is it going to be what
I want it to be, but so far I'menjoying it and things are
going pretty well right now.

Daniel Koo (34:22):
I think you'd approach this in a very safe way
.
You knew what the risks were,you knew what to go back into,
you knew what the advantages oftaking this risk is, and I
really like that.
You do your due diligence and Ithink that's very important for
people taking risks.
Sometimes, if you have an idea,you just go for it.
In the tech space, you tend todo that.

(34:43):
You have an idea, you just goand make it.
But I really like the approachthat you're taking.
It feels very safe for what itis and I think that's something
we can learn as well.

Angela Pham (34:54):
That's so interesting.
I'll add one more thing.
I think it's interesting howyou perceive it as safe, because
I have moments where I freakout and I'm wondering am I doing
the right thing?
But I have days where I feel Iam doing the right thing.
So I think in starting abusiness in general, maybe the

(35:15):
shared feeling is that you willbe anxious and questioning
things, but you'll have momentsof oh no, I think this is the
right thing to do.
There is a need out there and Iwant to help fill that gap.

Daniel Koo (35:28):
I guess it looks safe in the sense of you know,
if you look at startups, youknow you tend to go and pitch
your idea to investors and nowyou're messing with other
people's money and you knowthere are people you need to
answer to the results you haveto give.
But if you're independent, yeah, um, I guess you have full
control over that, that's true,okay, I will add this in too.

Angela Pham (35:51):
Then, in comparison , I actually have low I startup
costs then because I don't haveto really invest a lot of money
to be able to start my ownprivate practice actually and I
think this is very industryspecific and there's like the
random, like softwareprogramming, monthly fees.
My license renewal is kind ofpart of the process of having a

(36:12):
license, right, so those minorcosts like that.
But it's definitely not dealingwith investors or in a more
start like tech startuptraditional way.

Daniel Koo (36:20):
Yeah, let's go into some of the things, such as your
neuroaffirming methodology.
I have no idea what that is,yes, so I would love to learn
what that is, and also I want toget into what are some of the
tips and tricks on living lifefrom an OT perspective.
So I'm sure there's advice youcan give to people to help

(36:43):
achieve their goals.
Also to show you know what OTcan do for you, and I'm sure the
tips you can give.
Here is pretty generic to theaudience and I'm sure you go
into, you know into the detailsof it with each client and what
they need.
But is there something that youcan tell us in this perspective
?

Angela Pham (37:03):
Yes, okay, lots of questions.
I'll start with the first one,just because my experience
working with neurodivergentindividuals essentially I mean
autism is on a spectrum and thething is it's basically just the
way that they perceive andinteract with the world is
different.
But that's also if we're beingclient-centered and holistic.

(37:24):
Everyone experiences andinteracts with the world
differently and so taking thatperspective and meeting the
person where they're at, meetingmy client where they're at and
being able to work with them attheir own pacing, and that the
and the way that they receiveand perceive things, so that's
just a very it's essentiallybeing holistic and having a
holistic approach to care.

(37:45):
To answer your second set ofquestions, of any tips or advice
it is very client specificbecause that's how you make it
relatable, right.
But the common trend or theme isfor a lot of people, the
hardest part is starting.
The hardest part of starting aroutine is starting.
It's the first step and that'skind of usually the motivation.

(38:11):
The gap that people see me foris how do I motivate myself, how
do I actualize this intoreality?
And that's kind of where I comein in hacking their brains and
seeing is there a way for me tochange the environment to cue
them, to remind them of a goalthat they really want to work on
.
But they just need the extrapush for that.

(38:32):
So I usually tell people makethe step as easy as possible and
simple as possible.
So let's use the example ofcleaning your room.

Daniel Koo (38:44):
Exactly this is something that I need to listen
to and learn myself.

Angela Pham (38:48):
Yes.
So I know, for example, somepeople hate cleaning, like, okay
, I actually thought of bathroomwhen I said room for some
reason, but let's use thebathroom example.
Some people hate cleaning thebathroom, and that's fair.
There's a lot of sensoryoverload that comes with
cleaning your bathroom and a lotof effort that it needs to take
right.
But some people I'll suggest doyou want to put a squeegee in

(39:11):
your shower and maybe before youstart showering or even after,
you can wipe down a little bitof your shower door?
That's cleaning.
That is actually maintainingthe cleanliness of your shower.
So that's one hack is tobasically set your environment
up in a way where it's so easyfor you to do it.
The squeegee is right in frontof you, you're already in the

(39:33):
shower, the water's already on,you can do a little streaks on
your glass and that's it.
That's maintenance.
So that's one example For yourbedroom.
I would say you could make it asvisible as possible a cleaning
chart, and it could be in yourface.

(39:53):
So it could be right on yournightstand, on your bed, it
could be behind your door beforeyou have to leave your room,
and these are visual cuereminders for you to.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to makemy bed and then cross it off,
and so that's a little minorchange, but it's actually
sometimes enough for some peopleto want to clean their bed or

(40:14):
something like that.
Those are little hacks,essentially.

Daniel Koo (40:17):
I have a quick question.
So let's say we tried that.
Let's say we have a chart, butin the next session you realize
that that didn't really work.
What are some of the questionsthat you ask them to figure out?
Like what went wrong or likewhat we can change.

Angela Pham (40:34):
Yeah.
Well, I always start withasking them can you walk me
through your day?
Kind of yeah.
So I want to understand how arethey experiencing their daily
life, and I will usually find atime or part of their day that I
will target to help themenhance the likelihood of being
able to do that.

(40:54):
And so, for the first step isalways walk me through what
happened, and then a reflectionpiece of okay, how did you
interact with that?
Did you not interact?
Because that also tells me alot, and so we'll basically find
other ways for them to respondto the environment.
And if the environment doesn'twork, a lot of cognitive

(41:16):
strategies could be a remindersystem, and that could be your
phone, and I would ask themwhile walking me through their
day is there a time of day wherethey spend the most time in
their room and maybe we can makeit a break?
Maybe, let's say, they'restudying and then they need a
study break.
Maybe in that 15 minute breakthey could quickly move up their

(41:37):
body while also tending tothese tasks, so we can set an
alarm.
That's specifically intentional.
That isn't a very intentionalbreak that is targeted towards
cleaning the room, and so thisis where it gets really client
specific.
I need the details of theirlife for me to make it as
relatable to them and doable.

(41:58):
So that's kind of my approach,though it's the I need to know
how they're living their dailylives for me to know how can I
intervene.

Daniel Koo (42:06):
You know, what convinces me that the mental
health portion of OT is veryimportant and could be really
effective is that you knowyou're really looking into what
the client does and it's reallyclient dependent.
There's no you know drug thatyou're you know administering
and like there's no formula thatyou're using because you know
everyone's different.

(42:26):
So I love that it's a customsolution for each and you're
really and I'm sure you have tobuild a relationship with them
so that they trust you.
And to try this For the clients, are they usually just coming
to you personally or are theykind of could it also be like
parents trying to get their kidsto you know to do something?

Angela Pham (42:48):
Yes, so I work with clients across the lifespan.
So if parents have come to meand it's because they are
finding it difficult for theirchildren to be able to do some
of these more independentactivities like juggling
responsibilities and even timemanagement with making sure they

(43:08):
get homework done on time whilealso living a fulfilling
lifestyle.
And so, even if parents come tome, at the end of the day my
client is the child, and I wantto know the child and I will
always have the relationshipwith the child.
However, the parent will getsome updates here and there, and
for adults, it's the balancingof, usually, work and life, or

(43:34):
if work is consuming their life,it's the.
Can I help you with workprioritization strategies then,
so that you are able to maketime for life?
And sometimes in the life spaceit's a lot of errands or chores
or tasks that they have tojuggle.
So maintaining a float is, orpeople who struggle with

(43:54):
balancing and staying afloatusually see me too, because they
want to essentially reclaim thelife that they want.

Daniel Koo (44:02):
I think we have a sense of how you're working and
the people you deal with, and Iwant to know, now that you've
told us how you work andpreviously we talked about how
resilience is one of your corequalities, and you know,
previously we talked about howresilience is one of your core
qualities Is there somethingthat you try to not teach but
influence your clients so thatthey can build resilience as

(44:23):
well?

Angela Pham (44:25):
Oh, yes, it's so.
I tell all my clients that thisis an experiment and the
experiment is very unique tothem because they are the ones
that will be experimenting onthemselves, and with an
experiment there's no guaranteethat there will be a immediate

(44:47):
positive change.
However, it's a process whereyou learn a lot about yourself
and your identity, and it helpsin that data.
We can extrapolate that andapply it to a different
experiment.
So the thing is, some peopledon't even know themselves that
well enough to be able toimplement this experiment on

(45:08):
themselves, and so I feel likethat's where I come in as kind
of a facilitator.
You got to be open minded, yougot to be willing to step out of
your comfort zone, you got tobe able to, or be willing to,
experiment and try something new, because if you've never tried
it, how do you know it won'twork?
Or how do you know if it willwork?
And if it doesn't work, we willtake what did work and apply it

(45:31):
to a different scenario where,hopefully, we can maximize the
chances of it being successfulfor you.

Daniel Koo (45:41):
Can you?
Share with us a time when youhad to go you had to get really
creative and it kind ofchallenged you in a way.
Maybe it was a more difficultkind of client or maybe it was a
really difficult thing toachieve for that person.

Angela Pham (45:52):
Oh, okay, hmm, Let me think, because that's a
really good question.
That requires digging throughmy memory.
Creativity is always a part ofmy job, though, because
creativity is required for eachperson to make it as relatable.
For them was with a child, andit was through telehealth, so

(46:16):
virtual and their parent wantedthem to basically develop
responsibilities and be able toclean their room more, and so I
treated it like a video gamewith the client, where I would
told them okay, let's sectionoff a part of your room, choose

(46:38):
any corner of your room that youwould like to start off with,
and they selected a corner, andI was like awesome, so remember,
keeping in mind I want to makethis as simple and easy as
possible.
Awesome, so remember, keepingin mind, I want to make this as
simple and easy as possible.
So, within that corner, I lookedat whatever was a piece of
furniture, like a drawer orsomething that I thought we can
make a project out of, and so wechose a drawer on the desk, and

(47:00):
we're like okay, for today, ourgoal today is to work on this
drawer and organize the papersthat you need and you don't need
.
So two very simple categories,right, and at the end we were
able to, or if my client wasable to finish it at the end of
our session.
We always had room at the endfor us to play a game together.
So it's kind of that instantgratification reward.

(47:24):
But also, this is all throughtelehealth, so it's like virtual
.
So I asked him throughout theprocess to make it sound like
he's a vlogger.
Oh, okay.
I was like all right, show meyour space that you're working
with.
So then my client was likewhat's up, youtube?
I'm YouTube, though.

Daniel Koo (47:45):
What's up?

Angela Pham (47:46):
Chad yeah, yeah, and he's like, okay, today I
will be doing this.
No, yes, no yes.
And after that it was done.
And I think that was a habitthat we were trying to build is
that maybe sometimes you need aperson to facilitate it for you.
But each time you complete thistask, this chore, it gets

(48:08):
easier.
And the more your space becomesrecognizable and manageable, it
becomes easier to maintain, andso I was able to help elicit
some of that motivation overtime.
But it did require a little bitof scaffolding in the beginning
.
Scaffolding because he needed,you know, prompting where I'm
like, talk to me like I am yourstreamer.
But that made it fun enough forhim to want to do it.

Daniel Koo (48:32):
I think that really goes to show you know your
unique talents of you knowcoming up with these solutions
as well.
So I really commend you forthat, and I'm also curious what
you get out of this as well,like, do you feel very fulfilled
after your job, after eachsession?
What are some of the thingsyou're feeling?

Angela Pham (48:51):
Yeah, oh no.
I love it Because to me itfeels like an experiment as well
, where I am a curious andengaged learner.
So I want to know.
I want to know how it's goingto turn out too, and so I think
I take joy and pride in beingable to come up with these

(49:12):
factors, like adding thesevariables into an equation and
then seeing what the answer is.
So to me, I think this kind ofscratches that part of my brain
where it's very problem solvingfor thinking, and so I think
that, to me, is part of thefulfillment I get with my job,
but also just knowing that I wasable to help someone get one

(49:33):
step closer to being able tofunction better in their daily
life.

Daniel Koo (49:37):
I want to ask you what kind of qualities are
needed in order to succeed inthis field.
It could be empathy, as youmentioned before.
It could be being organized.
I don't know if you strugglewith that yourself as a mental
health occupational therapist,but tell us what are some of the
qualities that are veryimportant to succeed in this

(49:57):
field.

Angela Pham (49:59):
Yes.
So empathy, I think, is auniversal trait for anyone
hopefully working in healthcare,because when you're working
with people, you want to be ableto see things from their shoes
and be able to talk to them likethey're a person and not a
product that you're working on.
So empathy, I think problemsolving is a skill that you can

(50:24):
develop, though, so you don'thave to come into it already
really good at problem solvingand critical reasoning, but I
think wanting to get better atdeveloping the skill, being
open-minded, is a quality aswell.
I think the thing is with thisjob, you can also grow into it,

(50:44):
and but I will say you need tobe able to, I think, also have
boundaries.
So being confident in yourboundary setting is a big one,
because you don't want to takework home.
When you're spending all dayworking with people, it can be
emotionally taxing, and so inyour free time you want to be
able to live a life that youwant for yourself, rather than

(51:06):
taking the emotions and thehardship back home, because it
is a lot that you can be dealingwith as the person who is
helping people, and theirproblems too.
So I think a boundary settingis a huge one for any healthcare
employee, even more so ifyou're in mental health, I think

(51:28):
, because you need to be at somelevel of being okay in your own
mental health to be helpingpeople with their mental health.

Daniel Koo (51:36):
I can only imagine.
Especially you know youmentioned during your residency.
You're talking to people whohave severe issues, something
that may kind of exceed likenormal limits.
So I want to ask the flip sideof that question, which is you
know to whom would you notrecommend this career?

Angela Pham (51:53):
Yes, immediately in my head, I'm thinking people
who are extremely introvertedand do not want to communicate
with people, because for somepeople and it's very fair and
valid if work to you is work andyou just want to get the job
done, then there are othercareer paths that you could do
that, and you don't have to beconstantly using up your social

(52:16):
battery.
For I will say, though, thereare a lot of introverted people
who are therapists.
It's just they find a lot ofjoy in being able to give back
and help people in that way, soit's like a trade-off that
you're okay with, but Idefinitely think, if you're the
type of person where you see ajob as a job, maybe this would

(52:38):
not be the best fit, because Ithink some of your personal
values have to align with thistype of job, because you are
trying to make an impact onsomeone's life and you want to
care in that regard as well.

Daniel Koo (52:53):
One of the last questions I want to ask you is
what's something that you wishpeople would ask you about?

Angela Pham (53:01):
Oh, okay, that's the thing, because my field
isn't as well known as otherfields.
People are always askingquestions about what I do for
work.
That's the thing.
Because my field isn't as wellknown as other fields, people
are always asking questionsabout what I do for work and
sometimes they ask meoccupational therapy, as in a

(53:23):
career therapist Occupation,occupational therapy occupation
means any activity that you like, need to do, want to do an
activity in general.
So us doing a podcast togetherright now, that's an occupation,
according to occupationaltherapy.
Going to work, driving to workis an occupation.

(53:44):
Eating and feeding yourself isan occupation.
So occupation essentially meansany activity, and so that's why
occupational therapy what I dois I help people with any tasks
that they're struggling with andI will try to help them
optimize their life to be ableto do it more effectively, given
their personality, given theirworkload, their lifestyle.

(54:07):
So that's kind of the summaryof what I would tell people.

Daniel Koo (54:13):
I see.
So you want to let it be knownthat occupational therapy
actually covers a very widerange, and you may be needing
therapy in places that youdidn't even know there was
therapy to be had.
So, yeah, I guess that'ssomething I'm learning as well.
Yeah, thank you so much forsharing your journey so far.
Some of the things I've learned.

(54:34):
Well, first, I didn't knowabout occupational therapy in
mental health.
That's something new.
I learned something that I'lldefinitely be watching out for.
If I need it myself and ifthere's people that are
struggling with things like this, there's obviously ways to
suggest that to other people andkind of raise awareness on, you

(54:55):
know, the healthcare that wehave available to us.
The other things I learned fromyou is resilience, you know,
really fighting through thechallenges and making sure you
look back at yourself.
I think the self-reflection wasreally important.
I don't think I remember thelast time I sat down with myself
and really thought about who Iam, but that's something you

(55:15):
know I'm going to have to tryand do in the future as well.
The other thing I learned fromyou is taking calculated risks
and making sure you're preparedfor those risks.
In a way, it's very bold, it'svery non-traditional, but I
think you knew exactly what youwere getting out of it.
You knew exactly what you'rerisking, and that gives you a

(55:37):
lot of confidence and it givesus a framework on maybe you
shouldn't just jump into itwithout knowing anything.
Maybe you should think about it.
So that's something that Ilearned.
Thank you so much today forgiving your stories, your
insights, and I hope to have youon the podcast again at some
point after your business takesoff and you become a mogul in

(56:01):
the occupational therapist.

Angela Pham (56:03):
Oh, that'd be awesome to reflect together in
the future.

Daniel Koo (56:08):
Yes, exactly, yeah, I'll be signing up for your as a
client maybe, but we'll see.
Thank you so much.

Angela Pham (56:14):
No, thank you for having me.
This was great.
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