December 3, 2024 • 30 mins
In episode twenty-six of the Napa Valley Insider Podcast, Andrew sits down with Erin Kirschenmann, Managing Editor of Wine Business Monthly, to discuss her fascinating journey from journalism to becoming a key voice in the wine industry. Erin shares her unique insights from the intersection of media and wine, shedding light on the current state and future of the industry.
Episode Highlights:
- From Newsroom to Vineyard: Erin takes us through her path to Wine Business Monthly, starting with her early passion for journalism and a serendipitous leap into the wine world.
- Navigating Industry Trends: Learn about the major shifts in the wine business, including challenges like market maturation, the rise of alternative packaging, and the influence of generational consumer habits.
- Debunking Clickbait Myths: Erin offers a balanced take on headlines claiming the "sky is falling" in wine, emphasizing the industry's resilience and potential for innovation.
- Empowering Wineries and Job Seekers: Discover the tools Wine Business Monthly provides, from winejobs.com to cutting-edge research, helping wineries thrive in a competitive market.
This episode is brought to you by Cuvée, your go-to for exclusive Napa Valley experiences.
Follow Napa Valley Insider Podcast & Cuvée on Instagram for behind-the-scenes content and updates. Be sure to subscribe to the Napa Valley Insider Podcast for more stories from the people shaping the future of wine and hospitality in Napa Valley!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is the Napa Valley Insider podcast brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide in
(00:07):
partnership with Highway 29 Media.
All right, all right, all right.
Welcome back to another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
I am Andrew Allison.
I am the CEO of Cuvée.
We are a Napa Winery Guide app.
We make Napa Valley Insider in partnership with Highway 29 Media.
I am so excited to meet our guest today.
(00:29):
Who are you and what do you do?
Hi, my name is Erin Kirshenman.
I am the managing editor of Wine Business Monthly and WineBusiness.com.
And Sonoma State alumnus.
Sonoma State alum.
Communications.
Woo.
Also, a sea wolf.
So how does one get to the helm of Wine Business Monthly?
(00:52):
What is your origin story?
My origin story has a lot of sheer dumb luck.
I grew up in a journalism family.
I was first published at the age of eight, which my mother just loves to brag about.
Honestly, me too, to be entirely honest.
And I've been studying it ever since.
I went to Sonoma State to run the Sonoma State Star to be their editor in chief.
(01:16):
Amazing.
It was fantastic.
They basically let me have free rein of it.
And you can't get that experience anywhere else.
Okay.
So as somebody who is a proud Sonoma alum, I know what the star is.
If you don't know what the star is, what is the star?
The star is the school's newspaper.
And how frequently was it published?
Published weekly.
We were there Sunday nights till two, three o'clock in the morning getting that thing
(01:38):
to print.
And where did Sonoma print?
Oh gosh, back then we were printing at some place in Las Vegas because it was really cheap
at that point.
Okay.
Yeah.
I can't remember the name of where.
Okay.
So did you pursue journalism in high school?
Did you maybe work for the yearbook or anything like that?
I didn't.
(01:58):
No, not the yearbook in high school.
I did the school paper, the King's Courier.
Started as a sports reporter, editor, became news editor, and then editor in chief my senior
year.
And it's actually kind of funny.
I did the exact same thing at Sonoma State.
Started out as a sports reporter, sports editor, news editor, editor in chief by the end of
it.
(02:19):
Wow.
Yeah.
And through that journey, when you left Sonoma, how did you end up at Wine Business Monthly?
So when I left Sonoma State, I found the first job in journalism I could find.
And that was as a reporter for an insurance trade publication, a newsletter that went
(02:40):
out weekly for agents, brokers, carriers, the people who provide the insurance.
And it was soul sucking.
It was horrible.
We've all had that job.
Oh my God.
I was writing the same story about lawyers, professional liability every week.
And it was, I had one article about pirates coverage that was really exciting.
(03:01):
And then everything else was awful.
But I did learn a lot.
And so one day I was just really fed up.
I was tired of the carriers.
They don't say anything.
They don't talk to journalists.
They're not willing to share.
And I actually had a friend who was visiting from Lodi.
And she had been in Sonoma to interview with this company called Wine Business Monthly
for an assistant editor position.
(03:23):
And she's talking about it.
And I go, ooh, that sounds really exciting.
Went on Craigslist, applied, and within a week I was hired.
Wow.
Okay.
I love telling this story.
During the interview, my editor in chief asked me what my favorite wine variety was.
And at the time, I was basically right out of college.
(03:45):
I was drinking Barefoot Moscato out of the leaders.
And I had a feeling that wasn't the right answer.
But I remembered a wine tasting we did a month back and the winemaker was going off about
Chenin Blanc and how great it was.
So I just straight up lied in my interview and I told him Chenin Blanc and he makes this
face and goes, oh, okay.
Yeah, that's kind of interesting.
Maybe she knows something about wine.
(04:06):
I knew there was red and white and I liked both and that was it.
To this day, he teases me.
Every time Chenin Blanc comes up, he's like, oh, Erin, it's your favorite.
It's your bridal.
It's about to make a comeback.
When did you feel like you took the plunge and you started to really become indoctrinated
in this space?
It wasn't long after that.
(04:27):
I was definitely way in over my head at the beginning.
We are a trade publication for wineries and growers.
So we get into the weeds, into the science of fermentation and maturation.
And so we had a senior technical editor and I asked him whether something should be italicized
or not, if it was a true scientific name.
And he goes off on this hour long lecture and none of it makes sense to me.
(04:50):
And so I'm like, okay, I need to buckle down and study.
And I mean, it was quick.
Within a year, I was already hooked and way into the wine business.
And now I have my WCET diploma.
Now I'm on boards.
Now I basically feel like a walking spokesperson for wine and I love it.
Yeah.
(05:10):
Amen.
I also feel like a walking spokesperson for wine.
When you think about your business today, what are some of the things that you see because
you sit across such an interesting intersection of the industry?
What are some major trends that you are seeing in your role right now?
Oh, I'm going to try not to stay doom and gloom, but we are very much at a crossroads
(05:36):
in the wine business.
The industry has been on a growth pattern for so long, for the last 30 years, right?
I mean, probably even longer.
God, I feel so old now.
Since the 70s, we've been on a growth pattern.
Everything has come a little bit easy.
We've had a premiumization trend.
(05:57):
Consumers are generally buying maybe less, but they're paying more for their bottles.
And now we're a mature market.
So now we have to rethink how we sell wine, how we make wine, how we conduct our wine
businesses in order to maintain some growth and continue through and have a strong industry
(06:18):
for years to come.
And it's funny, we talk to so many winemakers and they get into it because they love wine.
They love the art of it, the science of it.
But at the end of the day, the wine business is still a business.
And I think that's where we need to be focusing more of our attention.
Yeah.
And so that's the biggest trend I see is we're going through a little bit of a retraction.
(06:41):
We're going through some tough spots, but nothing insurmountable.
My perception, and maybe you could tell me if it's fair to say that, is my perception
is that a lot of the folks that are writing about everything, the sky's falling in wine,
is really actually an overstatement.
It's a bit of click-baity.
(07:03):
It's a bit of audience capturing shock and awe.
Is it overstated from what you believe the reality is?
Yes and no.
When I was studying in high school journalism, my teacher had this phrase, if it bleeds,
it leads.
Sure.
And that's what we're seeing right now.
Yes, there are a lot of click-baity headlines.
(07:25):
There are a lot of misleading headlines.
I think a lot of the data is misrepresented sometimes.
There are lots of reputable writers, don't get me wrong, but it's easy to say that, oh,
there's this huge trend towards no or low alcohol.
There's a trend, but it's not this massive shift that's going to keep everybody from
(07:49):
drinking.
Everybody forgets that the boomers drink seltzers or spritzers before they started drinking
fine wine.
So they're making those sorts of same generalizations about millennials and Gen Z.
Well, give these two generations time to catch up and accumulate wealth and then they'll
start buying your wine.
The generational vintage isn't ready.
(08:09):
No, it's not.
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Make sure you follow us on Instagram at Kube Collective HQ, link in the show notes.
(08:31):
When you think about how you cover the wine industry with so much of Napa and Sonoma being
the heartland of the US wine industry, it makes sense you see a disproportionate amount
of coverage from your publication and others there.
But how, as somebody who's leading an industry publication, do you cover all 50 states or
(08:53):
all major trends?
When you're spread so thin with so much to cover, how do you do it?
What's your strategy?
We have a lot of great resources.
I love talking to people in all 50 states.
I just had a conversation with a woman in Virginia today and her entire goal was just
to spend an hour talking about what's happening there, just so we can understand it.
(09:16):
I really rely on PR.
I rely on writers in all of these different regions.
I do my best to follow what's happening, but we do look at everything that's happening
internationally, because my goal is to give my readers, winemakers, growers tools to be
better businesses so that they can make better wine, have better sales.
(09:38):
If there's smoke taint research happening in Australia, I need to know about it because
unfortunately as you know, that is an issue here in the states too.
I love emails from people saying, oh, this person's trying a cryo during their fermentation.
What?
Okay, sure.
(09:59):
Send me all of those weird wacky things winemakers are doing because usually there's a kernel
of truth in there.
Then we also go to all of the trade shows and conferences.
The big one obviously, Unified in January, we send a lot of people to that one to get
a grip on what's happening in the industry.
We host our own.
Then I just call up CEOs and winemakers randomly.
(10:21):
Say, hey, how's it going?
What's new in the business?
How do you think about the major trend around M&A that's happening?
It seems like there's a ton of corporate consolidation happening globally from the top hundred conglomerates.
Yeah, no, it is definitely happening.
(10:43):
I just wrote an article about M&A actually.
There's a not so secret, secret rumor that there are hundreds of wineries in California
for sale right now.
It's no secret that it's tough business at the moment.
You also have a lot of people who may have started their winery but are ready to retire,
phase out, their children don't want to take over, or maybe they've just realized that,
(11:07):
you know what, I'm a winemaker.
I don't want to have to sell wine.
Maybe I'll shut my winery down and go work somewhere else.
There are a lot of gems out there to be had.
There are a lot of large wineries who are looking for a perfect fit.
I don't think we're going to see a lot of transactions going forward, but the transactions
(11:29):
we see are going to be big.
Something like Rombauer being bought, Sonoma-Coutreur being purchased, Duckhorn leaving the public
sphere and going back to private equity.
We're going to see more of those large transactions as the bigger companies look to fill holes
in their portfolios.
When you say portfolio, do you mean in the sense of assets under management or in the
(11:53):
sense of the wines that they wish they could sell?
The wines they wish they could sell, yeah.
They have assets, they have the infrastructure.
Now they're looking for the brand that is going to be a huge hit with the customers.
Yeah.
The wineries that have caught the wave and are in front of it and have the muscle groups
(12:15):
to drive their own user acquisition and contribute to the bottom line are throwing off insane
volumes of cash.
The ones that have fallen behind the wave are consuming insane volumes of cash.
So it's which side of the wave are you on?
No, that's a really interesting take.
(12:37):
Part of it is also distribution too.
There's a lot of consolidation happening there.
It's been happening.
Southern R&DC breakthrough, if you have representation with them, that's a huge straw for some of
these larger wineries.
Maybe more mid-sized, not the gallows of the world, but maybe the Shides or the Delicatos.
(12:59):
If your brand has great distribution, they're looking at that.
I also think that some of the state-on-state action at the distribution level where some
folks are divesting some states and then some folks are acquiring more states, it's pretty
wild to watch how much of a rate-limiting function on national sales distribution is
(13:25):
right now.
If you can't get Mindshare at those three players, it is very hard to get distribution.
The number of markets that you can go to right now and really make a difference has kind
of stagnated from what I'm hearing.
A lot of the Midwestern towns like Minneapolis were hot growth spots, but now there's just
(13:51):
so many players in there that you're kind of stuck.
Yeah.
I'm not the national sales expert by any stretch, but so many of those NBA markets were the
boondoggle five years ago.
Let's jump ahead and talk about some of the hyperlocal resources that your business provides.
(14:15):
You guys also own wine jobs.
You guys also have a few other bits and bobs that contribute to your wine business, monthly
P&L.
Can you just give us a quick crash course on wine jobs and what is the way somebody listening
to this could maybe benefit from wine jobs?
Absolutely.
Wine jobs serves two facets of the business, the employees and the employers.
(14:40):
For employers, winejobs.com is the place that people go if they're looking to enter the
wine business.
We provide a lot of quality candidates, people who already know wine and are interested in
this business.
We also offer an applicant tracking system and now a comp tracker.
We just launched that about a month ago.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Now you can kind of thank you, State of California, for making it mandatory to post a pay salary
range with all of your job listings because now we can track what everybody's offering
with these new jobs.
That's really a great way for you as an employer to benchmark how much you're offering this
tasting room employee or accountant or whatever it is.
(15:22):
Then for employees, same thing.
If you are interested in working in wine, whether that's a winery, a retailer, distributor,
and marketer, vendor, cuprage example, you can go to winejobs.com and they will be listed
there.
You can also look at the comp tracker to see what a fair pay range could be and what other
places are offering to see if it's something that fits your needs and would be a good place
(15:48):
to work.
If you work in the DTC area of the wine industry, you're looking for insights and strategies
you can apply to help build your business.
To get those insights, join the nation's premier direct to consumer sales and marketing
conference.
Now in its 18th year, the direct to consumer wine symposium will be held January 21st to
23rd, 2025 in Monterey, California.
(16:09):
This is the conference that will provide you with cutting edge ideas you can integrate
into your programs as soon as you return home.
The conference is presented by and as a fundraiser for the Free the Grapes campaign.
Register before November 1st 2024 and take advantage of early bird pricing with significant
discounts visit DTC wine symposium.com.
That's DTC wine symposium.com.
(16:31):
See you in Monterey.
Is the I'm sure you have different pricing tiers, but is everything on the candidate
side?
Everything on the candidate side is free.
100% free.
We have a newsletter for alerts.
You know, if you say, oh, I want seller technician, right?
We'll send you an email every week with potential jobs for people who are posting flat fee until
(16:55):
you take it down.
How do you think about name conventions of roles?
And so some properties use really fancy names that really mean the same thing as the not
so fancy places.
Have you worked on any title standardization across your business?
We do.
Yes.
We take if you say people officer, right, we've built our database to know, OK, that's
(17:21):
human resources related, right?
We'll take care of that concierge.
OK, that's tasting room slash hospitality.
Well, we've done work behind the scenes to make sure that all of our data fits into the
right buckets.
There's some standardization there.
What's a good way for a winery owner to leverage your business if they were going to want to
(17:42):
engage with wine business monthly?
What would be a good on ramp if they, you know, five thousand, ten thousand case production?
How would you approach a good way to get started building a relationship with wine business
monthly?
Honestly, just email us.
It sounds so silly, but we're really friendly people.
(18:04):
Cyril and myself, we take meetings all the time if you're interested in coverage.
If you have something new or exciting, just let us know.
We're happy to learn about it.
We really care about this industry.
We want to promote wine businesses that are doing well, winemakers that are thinking outside
of the box.
Yeah, just shoot us an email.
(18:24):
I'm going to throw it out there.
Editor at winebusiness.com.
We both check it.
Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes.
Yeah, thanks.
I mean, we just want to hear what people are up to.
And how do you think that the kind of, whether it's the non-alc trend that we've kind of touched
on, but how do you think some of the actual variance in what consumers are drinking is
(18:48):
going to manifest on the supply chain side of things where you're, as a winemaker, you're
being forced to make decisions about what you're going to put in the package.
And the package can be a can or a bottle or a bag or a box or something that is sustainable
that we haven't seen yet.
What are the things that we're going to see really force new or upcoming trends at the
(19:14):
consumer packaging level?
Well, I definitely think alternative packaging is now something that all wineries should
be looking at.
It has established itself.
There's a market for it.
It is bringing in a lot of money.
Plus, let's be honest, it is better for the environment.
It is cheaper to ship a box than it is a glass bottle.
(19:34):
As for the no low alcohol trend, I think the lower alcohol trend is not going to go away.
And by low, I mean anything 13% or below.
For a red, having 13% feels low these days.
The no alcohol trend, I am not entirely sure that's going to have a lot of legs going forward.
(19:58):
I think we're going to have some newer brands, some more premium brands that are going to
hit the market and do really well, but it's going to be very difficult for a lot of other
wineries to get their foot in.
And to be entirely honest, there are very few no alcohol wines that I have had that
give me that same feeling of wine.
(20:20):
I would much rather for the amount of money that I'm spending on those, go get a nice
spirit and drink a little less or a beer or just not drink at all that night.
I don't want my lips to pucker like I'm drinking cranberry juice.
Yeah, totally.
I think the industry has seen a lot of change around both packaging and packaging options
(20:47):
over the last decade, but it feels like almost packaging is starting to really see some new,
more mature variants that are distribution ready.
And so it was fun a decade ago to see folks making a la milk carton style wine and whatever,
but I think it is really now hitting a stride, the team over at Maker with cans.
(21:10):
And I think they just recently just landed a national airline.
United, yeah.
So I do think there are some things that have reached a product maturity that is now getting
into a national consumer scale.
So I think that is really exciting from an industry standpoint, definitely a trend we're
paying attention to.
(21:31):
There's an alternative packaging alliance now and all they're trying to do is standardize
the way we talk about alternative packaging.
When we say boxes remove this much amount of carbon from the environment, it's the same
one that all of the wineries who are using boxes are talking about.
We're looking to do studies, do research and get real facts and make it so that everybody
(21:56):
has these resources so we can talk about it in a smart way.
So I'm excited to see how that goes.
I mean, the Cuvée team is relatively small, but the only major packaging trend we have
seen in the last 12 months is many of our wineries are no longer using foils.
It's an immediate cost saving and I think many of them are leading with a sustainability
(22:20):
move but there's the brass tacks of it.
It is far cheaper to not foil your wine.
And there was also a period during COVID too when we were having those massive supply chain
issues where a lot of people just could not get foil.
And they're like, oh wow, my sales are actually up.
Yeah.
We'll spin it a little bit.
It's a little green and then everybody loves it.
(22:41):
Personally, foil or not doesn't matter to me, but when I'm opening it up, I'm usually
the person who cuts their finger on the foil, so I'm fine with this.
For me, it's the overly waxed wax tops that you're trying to use that little baby machete
on the end of your corkscrew.
No, just put the corkscrew straight through the wax.
(23:01):
Totally.
No, don't even try cutting it off.
It's just a mess.
I know.
And always doing something.
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(23:22):
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Cheers.
So tell me, for the publication itself, how many issues do you have a year?
(23:45):
And is there a a la vogue September issue that you guys do that is the Anna Winter special?
Or how do you think about the release and production of your issues?
Yeah, so we do 12 issues a year.
Our two biggest issues are January and February.
(24:06):
So I am up to my eyeballs in both of them right now.
January is our unified guide.
We have a listing of all of the products that are going to be on the trade show floor at
Unified.
So you can kind of take a look and see, OK, maybe I need some new French barrels.
Here are all of the barrel providers and what they're going to have and kind of plan your
trip around the trade show.
(24:26):
And then our February issue is the review of the industry.
So if I could pretend to be Anna Winter for a day, it would be on this particular issue.
It would be February.
We look at the top 50 largest wineries by case sales in the US.
We look at the number of wineries in the United States.
I think we will be down from 12,000 this year back into the 11,000 range.
(24:50):
The state of distribution, who the top 10 are and what they're doing.
We interview almost all 50 CEOs for an industry outlook and trends piece.
And then the article that I work on is our hot brands, 10 small brands from around the
country who are doing something unique, cool.
I'm excited to say that one of them will be from Montana.
(25:13):
We have a Montana sparkling wine on the list.
It was fantastic, that wine.
And that just came from him emailing us and saying, hey, we're doing some cool things
in Montana.
Would you like to try the wine?
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like, of course, please.
I've had wine from Arkansas that was really good, believe it or not.
This isn't about Cuvée, but the Cuvée business is in the Invespev accelerator right now.
(25:37):
And so we're in their fall 24 cohort.
And blown away with some of the things people are working on.
Later this year, or maybe at the start of next year, we'll have an Invespev accelerator
day series of podcast interviews where folks can better pitch their business.
But one of the businesses that we met is this amazing American Sake brand.
(26:01):
You're speaking of Arkansas.
And so it was a crash course.
I know just enough to be dangerous in some alcohol categories.
But I know next to nothing about Sake.
But a lot like you said, there's just so much out there now that is not conforming to what
has now become New World standards or norms.
(26:23):
And now the New World is innovating on itself.
And it feels like a really fun time to be building a brand.
There's more resources than ever.
Man, oh man, it is just as challenging because of down funnel bottlenecks at the distributors
or all the way.
And at the other end of it, just getting mind share of the buyers.
There's more CPG products on shelves than ever before.
(26:47):
And it's harder to get into emails as well.
People have just stopped reading them.
They go straight into junk folders.
Tourism is harder than ever.
So the DTC channel is a little bit difficult.
But it hasn't stopped anybody from innovating.
If I can point to any great example is just look at some of the East Coast wineries and
(27:09):
what they do to keep the locals coming back, to keep them as part of their wine club.
They're doing some really interesting stuff.
Yeah, you mentioned Virginia.
We had we actually had a non-alch wine from Virginia on the pod a few episodes ago.
But I mean, there's new AVA is popping up all over the US.
(27:30):
And now I think all 50 states grow wine.
All 50 states have a vineyard and a winery.
Even Alaska.
I've had the sparkling wine.
It is delicious.
Said said better than myself.
You can't grow wine.
You need to make it.
But you can grow grapes.
But how how do you think about 2025?
(27:50):
And maybe that's a good a good place to wrap up today.
What can we expect to come out of the wine business monthly camp in 2025?
From us, we are going to be focusing quite a bit on ways to sell and market your wine.
We know that's going to be really tough for a lot of wineries.
A lot of ways that you can sort of unstick yourself from all of these tricky places,
(28:13):
how to get distribution, how to get mind share, how to streamline and restructure your business
so that you're not wasting money and you're not just sending cash down the drain.
And then a lot of stuff product wise.
I know we're going to be looking a lot at sparkling wine over the next year because
so many producers are taking a look at that as an option to kind of diversify their portfolio,
(28:35):
engage their wine club members, just be interesting again.
And then just always a commitment to finding out what's new and exciting, at least from
us.
So well, thank you so, so very much.
And you just tell us not only the email one more time, what are some Instagram handle
or social handles that folks can follow to follow your business?
(28:58):
And if folks want to subscribe, could you just share a little bit about that information?
How do people get a hold of you and where can they see your work?
Yeah, you can get a hold of us, editor at winebusiness.com.
If you go to winebusiness.com, you'll see all of the day's news.
Add slash WBM to the end and you will see our magazine.
It is free to read online.
We just need an account, the account is free.
(29:21):
We just need to be able to provide an email and log in.
winejobs.com if you're looking for a job.
And then online or on social, excuse us, find us at winebusinessmonthly on Instagram and
me personally at Aaron A. Kirsch.
Thank you.
Thank you so very much.
This is another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
(29:42):
Cheers.
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Cheers.
This is the Napa Valley Insider podcast brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide in
(00:07):
partnership with Highway 29 Media.
All right, all right, all right.
Welcome back to another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
I am Andrew Allison.
I am the CEO of Cuvée.
We are a Napa Winery Guide app.
We make Napa Valley Insider in partnership with Highway 29 Media.
I am so excited to meet our guest today.
(00:29):
Who are you and what do you do?
Hi, my name is Erin Kirshenman.
I am the managing editor of Wine Business Monthly and WineBusiness.com.
And Sonoma State alumnus.
Sonoma State alum.
Communications.
Woo.
Also, a sea wolf.
So how does one get to the helm of Wine Business Monthly?
(00:52):
What is your origin story?
My origin story has a lot of sheer dumb luck.
I grew up in a journalism family.
I was first published at the age of eight, which my mother just loves to brag about.
Honestly, me too, to be entirely honest.
And I've been studying it ever since.
I went to Sonoma State to run the Sonoma State Star to be their editor in chief.
(01:16):
Amazing.
It was fantastic.
They basically let me have free rein of it.
And you can't get that experience anywhere else.
Okay.
So as somebody who is a proud Sonoma alum, I know what the star is.
If you don't know what the star is, what is the star?
The star is the school's newspaper.
And how frequently was it published?
Published weekly.
We were there Sunday nights till two, three o'clock in the morning getting that thing
(01:38):
to print.
And where did Sonoma print?
Oh gosh, back then we were printing at some place in Las Vegas because it was really cheap
at that point.
Okay.
Yeah.
I can't remember the name of where.
Okay.
So did you pursue journalism in high school?
Did you maybe work for the yearbook or anything like that?
I didn't.
(01:58):
No, not the yearbook in high school.
I did the school paper, the King's Courier.
Started as a sports reporter, editor, became news editor, and then editor in chief my senior
year.
And it's actually kind of funny.
I did the exact same thing at Sonoma State.
Started out as a sports reporter, sports editor, news editor, editor in chief by the end of
it.
(02:19):
Wow.
Yeah.
And through that journey, when you left Sonoma, how did you end up at Wine Business Monthly?
So when I left Sonoma State, I found the first job in journalism I could find.
And that was as a reporter for an insurance trade publication, a newsletter that went
(02:40):
out weekly for agents, brokers, carriers, the people who provide the insurance.
And it was soul sucking.
It was horrible.
We've all had that job.
Oh my God.
I was writing the same story about lawyers, professional liability every week.
And it was, I had one article about pirates coverage that was really exciting.
(03:01):
And then everything else was awful.
But I did learn a lot.
And so one day I was just really fed up.
I was tired of the carriers.
They don't say anything.
They don't talk to journalists.
They're not willing to share.
And I actually had a friend who was visiting from Lodi.
And she had been in Sonoma to interview with this company called Wine Business Monthly
for an assistant editor position.
(03:23):
And she's talking about it.
And I go, ooh, that sounds really exciting.
Went on Craigslist, applied, and within a week I was hired.
Wow.
Okay.
I love telling this story.
During the interview, my editor in chief asked me what my favorite wine variety was.
And at the time, I was basically right out of college.
(03:45):
I was drinking Barefoot Moscato out of the leaders.
And I had a feeling that wasn't the right answer.
But I remembered a wine tasting we did a month back and the winemaker was going off about
Chenin Blanc and how great it was.
So I just straight up lied in my interview and I told him Chenin Blanc and he makes this
face and goes, oh, okay.
Yeah, that's kind of interesting.
Maybe she knows something about wine.
(04:06):
I knew there was red and white and I liked both and that was it.
To this day, he teases me.
Every time Chenin Blanc comes up, he's like, oh, Erin, it's your favorite.
It's your bridal.
It's about to make a comeback.
When did you feel like you took the plunge and you started to really become indoctrinated
in this space?
It wasn't long after that.
(04:27):
I was definitely way in over my head at the beginning.
We are a trade publication for wineries and growers.
So we get into the weeds, into the science of fermentation and maturation.
And so we had a senior technical editor and I asked him whether something should be italicized
or not, if it was a true scientific name.
And he goes off on this hour long lecture and none of it makes sense to me.
(04:50):
And so I'm like, okay, I need to buckle down and study.
And I mean, it was quick.
Within a year, I was already hooked and way into the wine business.
And now I have my WCET diploma.
Now I'm on boards.
Now I basically feel like a walking spokesperson for wine and I love it.
Yeah.
(05:10):
Amen.
I also feel like a walking spokesperson for wine.
When you think about your business today, what are some of the things that you see because
you sit across such an interesting intersection of the industry?
What are some major trends that you are seeing in your role right now?
Oh, I'm going to try not to stay doom and gloom, but we are very much at a crossroads
(05:36):
in the wine business.
The industry has been on a growth pattern for so long, for the last 30 years, right?
I mean, probably even longer.
God, I feel so old now.
Since the 70s, we've been on a growth pattern.
Everything has come a little bit easy.
We've had a premiumization trend.
(05:57):
Consumers are generally buying maybe less, but they're paying more for their bottles.
And now we're a mature market.
So now we have to rethink how we sell wine, how we make wine, how we conduct our wine
businesses in order to maintain some growth and continue through and have a strong industry
(06:18):
for years to come.
And it's funny, we talk to so many winemakers and they get into it because they love wine.
They love the art of it, the science of it.
But at the end of the day, the wine business is still a business.
And I think that's where we need to be focusing more of our attention.
Yeah.
And so that's the biggest trend I see is we're going through a little bit of a retraction.
(06:41):
We're going through some tough spots, but nothing insurmountable.
My perception, and maybe you could tell me if it's fair to say that, is my perception
is that a lot of the folks that are writing about everything, the sky's falling in wine,
is really actually an overstatement.
It's a bit of click-baity.
(07:03):
It's a bit of audience capturing shock and awe.
Is it overstated from what you believe the reality is?
Yes and no.
When I was studying in high school journalism, my teacher had this phrase, if it bleeds,
it leads.
Sure.
And that's what we're seeing right now.
Yes, there are a lot of click-baity headlines.
(07:25):
There are a lot of misleading headlines.
I think a lot of the data is misrepresented sometimes.
There are lots of reputable writers, don't get me wrong, but it's easy to say that, oh,
there's this huge trend towards no or low alcohol.
There's a trend, but it's not this massive shift that's going to keep everybody from
(07:49):
drinking.
Everybody forgets that the boomers drink seltzers or spritzers before they started drinking
fine wine.
So they're making those sorts of same generalizations about millennials and Gen Z.
Well, give these two generations time to catch up and accumulate wealth and then they'll
start buying your wine.
The generational vintage isn't ready.
(08:09):
No, it's not.
Follow us on Instagram at Kube Collective HQ.
If there's someone in Napa's hospitality scene you'd like to see featured in our industry
interview series, send us a DM.
We're asking the pros where they go, whether it's the best burger or the top cocktail,
our audience wants to know your favorites around the valley.
Make sure you follow us on Instagram at Kube Collective HQ, link in the show notes.
(08:31):
When you think about how you cover the wine industry with so much of Napa and Sonoma being
the heartland of the US wine industry, it makes sense you see a disproportionate amount
of coverage from your publication and others there.
But how, as somebody who's leading an industry publication, do you cover all 50 states or
(08:53):
all major trends?
When you're spread so thin with so much to cover, how do you do it?
What's your strategy?
We have a lot of great resources.
I love talking to people in all 50 states.
I just had a conversation with a woman in Virginia today and her entire goal was just
to spend an hour talking about what's happening there, just so we can understand it.
(09:16):
I really rely on PR.
I rely on writers in all of these different regions.
I do my best to follow what's happening, but we do look at everything that's happening
internationally, because my goal is to give my readers, winemakers, growers tools to be
better businesses so that they can make better wine, have better sales.
(09:38):
If there's smoke taint research happening in Australia, I need to know about it because
unfortunately as you know, that is an issue here in the states too.
I love emails from people saying, oh, this person's trying a cryo during their fermentation.
What?
Okay, sure.
(09:59):
Send me all of those weird wacky things winemakers are doing because usually there's a kernel
of truth in there.
Then we also go to all of the trade shows and conferences.
The big one obviously, Unified in January, we send a lot of people to that one to get
a grip on what's happening in the industry.
We host our own.
Then I just call up CEOs and winemakers randomly.
(10:21):
Say, hey, how's it going?
What's new in the business?
How do you think about the major trend around M&A that's happening?
It seems like there's a ton of corporate consolidation happening globally from the top hundred conglomerates.
Yeah, no, it is definitely happening.
(10:43):
I just wrote an article about M&A actually.
There's a not so secret, secret rumor that there are hundreds of wineries in California
for sale right now.
It's no secret that it's tough business at the moment.
You also have a lot of people who may have started their winery but are ready to retire,
phase out, their children don't want to take over, or maybe they've just realized that,
(11:07):
you know what, I'm a winemaker.
I don't want to have to sell wine.
Maybe I'll shut my winery down and go work somewhere else.
There are a lot of gems out there to be had.
There are a lot of large wineries who are looking for a perfect fit.
I don't think we're going to see a lot of transactions going forward, but the transactions
(11:29):
we see are going to be big.
Something like Rombauer being bought, Sonoma-Coutreur being purchased, Duckhorn leaving the public
sphere and going back to private equity.
We're going to see more of those large transactions as the bigger companies look to fill holes
in their portfolios.
When you say portfolio, do you mean in the sense of assets under management or in the
(11:53):
sense of the wines that they wish they could sell?
The wines they wish they could sell, yeah.
They have assets, they have the infrastructure.
Now they're looking for the brand that is going to be a huge hit with the customers.
Yeah.
The wineries that have caught the wave and are in front of it and have the muscle groups
(12:15):
to drive their own user acquisition and contribute to the bottom line are throwing off insane
volumes of cash.
The ones that have fallen behind the wave are consuming insane volumes of cash.
So it's which side of the wave are you on?
No, that's a really interesting take.
(12:37):
Part of it is also distribution too.
There's a lot of consolidation happening there.
It's been happening.
Southern R&DC breakthrough, if you have representation with them, that's a huge straw for some of
these larger wineries.
Maybe more mid-sized, not the gallows of the world, but maybe the Shides or the Delicatos.
(12:59):
If your brand has great distribution, they're looking at that.
I also think that some of the state-on-state action at the distribution level where some
folks are divesting some states and then some folks are acquiring more states, it's pretty
wild to watch how much of a rate-limiting function on national sales distribution is
(13:25):
right now.
If you can't get Mindshare at those three players, it is very hard to get distribution.
The number of markets that you can go to right now and really make a difference has kind
of stagnated from what I'm hearing.
A lot of the Midwestern towns like Minneapolis were hot growth spots, but now there's just
(13:51):
so many players in there that you're kind of stuck.
Yeah.
I'm not the national sales expert by any stretch, but so many of those NBA markets were the
boondoggle five years ago.
Let's jump ahead and talk about some of the hyperlocal resources that your business provides.
(14:15):
You guys also own wine jobs.
You guys also have a few other bits and bobs that contribute to your wine business, monthly
P&L.
Can you just give us a quick crash course on wine jobs and what is the way somebody listening
to this could maybe benefit from wine jobs?
Absolutely.
Wine jobs serves two facets of the business, the employees and the employers.
(14:40):
For employers, winejobs.com is the place that people go if they're looking to enter the
wine business.
We provide a lot of quality candidates, people who already know wine and are interested in
this business.
We also offer an applicant tracking system and now a comp tracker.
We just launched that about a month ago.
(15:02):
Yeah.
Now you can kind of thank you, State of California, for making it mandatory to post a pay salary
range with all of your job listings because now we can track what everybody's offering
with these new jobs.
That's really a great way for you as an employer to benchmark how much you're offering this
tasting room employee or accountant or whatever it is.
(15:22):
Then for employees, same thing.
If you are interested in working in wine, whether that's a winery, a retailer, distributor,
and marketer, vendor, cuprage example, you can go to winejobs.com and they will be listed
there.
You can also look at the comp tracker to see what a fair pay range could be and what other
places are offering to see if it's something that fits your needs and would be a good place
(15:48):
to work.
If you work in the DTC area of the wine industry, you're looking for insights and strategies
you can apply to help build your business.
To get those insights, join the nation's premier direct to consumer sales and marketing
conference.
Now in its 18th year, the direct to consumer wine symposium will be held January 21st to
23rd, 2025 in Monterey, California.
(16:09):
This is the conference that will provide you with cutting edge ideas you can integrate
into your programs as soon as you return home.
The conference is presented by and as a fundraiser for the Free the Grapes campaign.
Register before November 1st 2024 and take advantage of early bird pricing with significant
discounts visit DTC wine symposium.com.
That's DTC wine symposium.com.
(16:31):
See you in Monterey.
Is the I'm sure you have different pricing tiers, but is everything on the candidate
side?
Everything on the candidate side is free.
100% free.
We have a newsletter for alerts.
You know, if you say, oh, I want seller technician, right?
We'll send you an email every week with potential jobs for people who are posting flat fee until
(16:55):
you take it down.
How do you think about name conventions of roles?
And so some properties use really fancy names that really mean the same thing as the not
so fancy places.
Have you worked on any title standardization across your business?
We do.
Yes.
We take if you say people officer, right, we've built our database to know, OK, that's
(17:21):
human resources related, right?
We'll take care of that concierge.
OK, that's tasting room slash hospitality.
Well, we've done work behind the scenes to make sure that all of our data fits into the
right buckets.
There's some standardization there.
What's a good way for a winery owner to leverage your business if they were going to want to
(17:42):
engage with wine business monthly?
What would be a good on ramp if they, you know, five thousand, ten thousand case production?
How would you approach a good way to get started building a relationship with wine business
monthly?
Honestly, just email us.
It sounds so silly, but we're really friendly people.
(18:04):
Cyril and myself, we take meetings all the time if you're interested in coverage.
If you have something new or exciting, just let us know.
We're happy to learn about it.
We really care about this industry.
We want to promote wine businesses that are doing well, winemakers that are thinking outside
of the box.
Yeah, just shoot us an email.
(18:24):
I'm going to throw it out there.
Editor at winebusiness.com.
We both check it.
Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes.
Yeah, thanks.
I mean, we just want to hear what people are up to.
And how do you think that the kind of, whether it's the non-alc trend that we've kind of touched
on, but how do you think some of the actual variance in what consumers are drinking is
(18:48):
going to manifest on the supply chain side of things where you're, as a winemaker, you're
being forced to make decisions about what you're going to put in the package.
And the package can be a can or a bottle or a bag or a box or something that is sustainable
that we haven't seen yet.
What are the things that we're going to see really force new or upcoming trends at the
(19:14):
consumer packaging level?
Well, I definitely think alternative packaging is now something that all wineries should
be looking at.
It has established itself.
There's a market for it.
It is bringing in a lot of money.
Plus, let's be honest, it is better for the environment.
It is cheaper to ship a box than it is a glass bottle.
(19:34):
As for the no low alcohol trend, I think the lower alcohol trend is not going to go away.
And by low, I mean anything 13% or below.
For a red, having 13% feels low these days.
The no alcohol trend, I am not entirely sure that's going to have a lot of legs going forward.
(19:58):
I think we're going to have some newer brands, some more premium brands that are going to
hit the market and do really well, but it's going to be very difficult for a lot of other
wineries to get their foot in.
And to be entirely honest, there are very few no alcohol wines that I have had that
give me that same feeling of wine.
(20:20):
I would much rather for the amount of money that I'm spending on those, go get a nice
spirit and drink a little less or a beer or just not drink at all that night.
I don't want my lips to pucker like I'm drinking cranberry juice.
Yeah, totally.
I think the industry has seen a lot of change around both packaging and packaging options
(20:47):
over the last decade, but it feels like almost packaging is starting to really see some new,
more mature variants that are distribution ready.
And so it was fun a decade ago to see folks making a la milk carton style wine and whatever,
but I think it is really now hitting a stride, the team over at Maker with cans.
(21:10):
And I think they just recently just landed a national airline.
United, yeah.
So I do think there are some things that have reached a product maturity that is now getting
into a national consumer scale.
So I think that is really exciting from an industry standpoint, definitely a trend we're
paying attention to.
(21:31):
There's an alternative packaging alliance now and all they're trying to do is standardize
the way we talk about alternative packaging.
When we say boxes remove this much amount of carbon from the environment, it's the same
one that all of the wineries who are using boxes are talking about.
We're looking to do studies, do research and get real facts and make it so that everybody
(21:56):
has these resources so we can talk about it in a smart way.
So I'm excited to see how that goes.
I mean, the Cuvée team is relatively small, but the only major packaging trend we have
seen in the last 12 months is many of our wineries are no longer using foils.
It's an immediate cost saving and I think many of them are leading with a sustainability
(22:20):
move but there's the brass tacks of it.
It is far cheaper to not foil your wine.
And there was also a period during COVID too when we were having those massive supply chain
issues where a lot of people just could not get foil.
And they're like, oh wow, my sales are actually up.
Yeah.
We'll spin it a little bit.
It's a little green and then everybody loves it.
(22:41):
Personally, foil or not doesn't matter to me, but when I'm opening it up, I'm usually
the person who cuts their finger on the foil, so I'm fine with this.
For me, it's the overly waxed wax tops that you're trying to use that little baby machete
on the end of your corkscrew.
No, just put the corkscrew straight through the wax.
(23:01):
Totally.
No, don't even try cutting it off.
It's just a mess.
I know.
And always doing something.
Help keep local Napa news alive by donating to Napa Valley News Group.
Napa Valley News Group is dedicated to preserving local voices.
And 100% of your tax deductible donation goes directly to supporting Napa Valley's news
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(23:22):
Every dollar truly makes a difference.
Head over to NapaValleyNewsGroup.com to donate and keep our community informed.
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Tax ID 93-466-2744.
Cheers.
So tell me, for the publication itself, how many issues do you have a year?
(23:45):
And is there a a la vogue September issue that you guys do that is the Anna Winter special?
Or how do you think about the release and production of your issues?
Yeah, so we do 12 issues a year.
Our two biggest issues are January and February.
(24:06):
So I am up to my eyeballs in both of them right now.
January is our unified guide.
We have a listing of all of the products that are going to be on the trade show floor at
Unified.
So you can kind of take a look and see, OK, maybe I need some new French barrels.
Here are all of the barrel providers and what they're going to have and kind of plan your
trip around the trade show.
(24:26):
And then our February issue is the review of the industry.
So if I could pretend to be Anna Winter for a day, it would be on this particular issue.
It would be February.
We look at the top 50 largest wineries by case sales in the US.
We look at the number of wineries in the United States.
I think we will be down from 12,000 this year back into the 11,000 range.
(24:50):
The state of distribution, who the top 10 are and what they're doing.
We interview almost all 50 CEOs for an industry outlook and trends piece.
And then the article that I work on is our hot brands, 10 small brands from around the
country who are doing something unique, cool.
I'm excited to say that one of them will be from Montana.
(25:13):
We have a Montana sparkling wine on the list.
It was fantastic, that wine.
And that just came from him emailing us and saying, hey, we're doing some cool things
in Montana.
Would you like to try the wine?
Hell yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like, of course, please.
I've had wine from Arkansas that was really good, believe it or not.
This isn't about Cuvée, but the Cuvée business is in the Invespev accelerator right now.
(25:37):
And so we're in their fall 24 cohort.
And blown away with some of the things people are working on.
Later this year, or maybe at the start of next year, we'll have an Invespev accelerator
day series of podcast interviews where folks can better pitch their business.
But one of the businesses that we met is this amazing American Sake brand.
(26:01):
You're speaking of Arkansas.
And so it was a crash course.
I know just enough to be dangerous in some alcohol categories.
But I know next to nothing about Sake.
But a lot like you said, there's just so much out there now that is not conforming to what
has now become New World standards or norms.
(26:23):
And now the New World is innovating on itself.
And it feels like a really fun time to be building a brand.
There's more resources than ever.
Man, oh man, it is just as challenging because of down funnel bottlenecks at the distributors
or all the way.
And at the other end of it, just getting mind share of the buyers.
There's more CPG products on shelves than ever before.
(26:47):
And it's harder to get into emails as well.
People have just stopped reading them.
They go straight into junk folders.
Tourism is harder than ever.
So the DTC channel is a little bit difficult.
But it hasn't stopped anybody from innovating.
If I can point to any great example is just look at some of the East Coast wineries and
(27:09):
what they do to keep the locals coming back, to keep them as part of their wine club.
They're doing some really interesting stuff.
Yeah, you mentioned Virginia.
We had we actually had a non-alch wine from Virginia on the pod a few episodes ago.
But I mean, there's new AVA is popping up all over the US.
(27:30):
And now I think all 50 states grow wine.
All 50 states have a vineyard and a winery.
Even Alaska.
I've had the sparkling wine.
It is delicious.
Said said better than myself.
You can't grow wine.
You need to make it.
But you can grow grapes.
But how how do you think about 2025?
(27:50):
And maybe that's a good a good place to wrap up today.
What can we expect to come out of the wine business monthly camp in 2025?
From us, we are going to be focusing quite a bit on ways to sell and market your wine.
We know that's going to be really tough for a lot of wineries.
A lot of ways that you can sort of unstick yourself from all of these tricky places,
(28:13):
how to get distribution, how to get mind share, how to streamline and restructure your business
so that you're not wasting money and you're not just sending cash down the drain.
And then a lot of stuff product wise.
I know we're going to be looking a lot at sparkling wine over the next year because
so many producers are taking a look at that as an option to kind of diversify their portfolio,
(28:35):
engage their wine club members, just be interesting again.
And then just always a commitment to finding out what's new and exciting, at least from
us.
So well, thank you so, so very much.
And you just tell us not only the email one more time, what are some Instagram handle
or social handles that folks can follow to follow your business?
(28:58):
And if folks want to subscribe, could you just share a little bit about that information?
How do people get a hold of you and where can they see your work?
Yeah, you can get a hold of us, editor at winebusiness.com.
If you go to winebusiness.com, you'll see all of the day's news.
Add slash WBM to the end and you will see our magazine.
It is free to read online.
We just need an account, the account is free.
(29:21):
We just need to be able to provide an email and log in.
winejobs.com if you're looking for a job.
And then online or on social, excuse us, find us at winebusinessmonthly on Instagram and
me personally at Aaron A. Kirsch.
Thank you.
Thank you so very much.
This is another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
(29:42):
Cheers.
The Napa Valley Insider podcast has been brought to you by Kuve, the Napa winery guide.
Download the app for iPhone today and start planning your perfect wine country adventure.
Find out more at kuveapp.com.
Cheers.
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