February 4, 2025 • 32 mins
In episode thirty-one of the Napa Valley Insider Podcast, Andrew sits down with Pam Dillon, CEO and co-founder of Preferabli, to discuss a groundbreaking moment—Preferabli's acquisition of Cuvée. Pam shares her journey from Wall Street to the wine and spirits industry, how AI is transforming hospitality, and what this acquisition means for the future of personalized recommendations.
Episode Highlights:
- From Finance to Wine Tech: Pam’s path from banking at Goldman Sachs to building an AI-driven platform for the alcohol industry.
- AI and Personalization: Why proprietary data is the key to AI-driven consumer experiences and how Preferabli is shaping the future of wine and spirits.
- The Cuvée Acquisition: Why Preferabli chose to acquire Cuvée and how the team’s expertise in consumer engagement will drive innovation.
- Industry Trends: The merging of hospitality and retail, the power of AI-driven search, and what every business should know about adapting to digital transformation.
- Building for the Future: How marketplaces, AI, and data accuracy will define the next wave of hospitality and consumer experiences.
This episode marks a major milestone as Cuvée joins the Preferabli family, with Andrew stepping into his new role as Chief Growth Officer. Follow along as we continue to push boundaries in hospitality, AI, and digital innovation.
This episode is brought to you by Preferabli, the AI-driven platform for wine, spirits, and food personalization. Follow @NapaValleyInsiderPodcast for updates and behind-the-scenes content.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is the Industry Insider Podcast, brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide, powered
(00:07):
by Preferably, with your host, Andrew Allison.
All right, all right, all right.
Welcome back to another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
Today I have a guest I'm so excited to introduce you to, and we will have a little bit of news
over the course of the episode, but let's keep it traditional.
Who are you and what do you do?
(00:29):
Good morning, Allison.
I am Pam Dillon.
I am the co-founder and CEO of a software company called Preferably.
We are focused on wine, spirits, and food.
And for those that don't know, we have a little bit of news.
(00:51):
And so Cuvée has been three years in the making, and Pam Dillon and her partner and their investor
base have shown interest in acquiring Cuvée.
We have.
And so this would be one of the last episodes that I actually have the opportunity to introduce
(01:13):
myself as the CEO of Cuvée, because I am now the chief growth officer of Preferably.
And welcome.
It's so nice to be had.
Before we go too much into the acquisition, which I would love to talk about, please tell
me what is the origin story of Pam Dillon and how did you become the person that you
(01:34):
are today leading an industry-changing technology company?
The irony is that I fell for wine right here in Napa.
For me, this is coming home.
This is coming full circle.
When decades ago, I came to this part of the world and I fell.
(01:59):
I fell really, really hard for this industry.
I fell really hard for the storytelling, for the romance, for the taste of the wines themselves,
for the lifestyle.
And it was something I couldn't shake, even though I worked for many, many years, completely
(02:21):
different industry.
It was one of those things in life that just didn't go away.
It just kept coming up.
It kept coming up again and again.
And starting Preferably, I realize now it's my third career.
Gosh, it's the best one by far.
The idea from the very beginning was to build software that would bring together the supply
(02:46):
side and the demand side, businesses and consumers through the prism of personal taste preference.
And when we had this idea, my co-funding partner, Andrew Sussman and I, why I call you Allison,
the idea from the very beginning was to work with the voice of the consumer, was to use
(03:13):
as a point of departure when a consumer tasted a wine, did they like it or not?
And what could we do with that?
Could we use that, that digital signal?
Could we use that to build an entire platform?
Could we build software that would work like a human expert at scale?
And bringing Steve Dillon, our chief science officer, who I remember when we recruited
(03:39):
him and he said, yeah, right, no biggie, I'll write that code.
And on the way, maybe I'll win a couple of Nobel prizes because of what we imagined at
the time was what people refer to as AI today.
But we were working in that field 10 years ago.
Our first patent indeed was awarded 10 years ago.
(04:00):
And so it has fully realized itself.
And I think today with our announcement, even more so coming full circle to the place that
I remember very distinctly falling in love with wine.
I am so excited to talk about what preferably does with our community.
(04:22):
But before we do, what was your upbringing?
Where did you go to school?
What was your first job out of school?
Wow, you're taking me way back.
I'm from the East Coast.
I feel like I have a California soul somehow.
I'm not sure where I got it.
But I'm born and raised just outside of New York.
(04:45):
My father was a New Yorker.
My father was born and raised in Hell's Kitchen, back when it really was Hell's Kitchen.
My mother was from the other side of the tracks, and she studied languages.
She studied literature.
She studied and was deeply, deeply taken by culture, international culture.
(05:10):
And so I was raised in a home where I got both sides of it.
I got the entrepreneurial side, the scrappy, you know, walk the street side from my dad.
And I got a love of international culture from my mom.
I feel like I could not have been more lucky.
(05:32):
And maybe it's because I have their DNA that I appreciate it, that I see it that way.
But it was a happy home.
It was in a quiet neighborhood in northern New Jersey.
It paved the way for, I think, the very deep base of confidence that I have as a person
(05:53):
to just wake up one day and do whatever it is I want to do.
I got very, very lucky.
Amazing.
And let's jump into that career, before you started preferably.
Where did you work prior?
My dad worked in the finance industry, the banking industry.
(06:14):
He had really, really made good.
When he graduated from high school, he could have gone one way or another.
He could have, he was offered a professional contract for the Cincinnati Reds.
He was the best stickball player in New York.
And he was also offered the opportunity to go to New York University.
And that was the one he took.
And when he graduated, he was immediately focused on the capital markets, banking, banking
(06:39):
and finance.
And when I graduated, I went to the University of Pennsylvania.
When I graduated, I seeked to follow in his footsteps.
Not immediately, but I came to my senses soon enough.
I realized that the banking industry, the finance industry would be a brilliant underpinning
(07:01):
for anything else I was ever going to do.
Understanding money, the movement of money, how money can change things, was at the time
I thought really, really solid training.
It turns out it was also the number one place that anybody graduating from the university
wanted to go to because it was Wall Street at that time.
So I worked for Goldman Sachs for years.
(07:24):
I was hired into the New York office, was transferred very soon to the London office.
It was during the first Tech-O round.
I felt a core part of the development of that market being based in London, working on the
continent during the first Tech-O round.
I really understand infrastructure today because of that.
(07:46):
I understand how AI is really the next phase of infrastructure for everything that was
going to be built.
It was the greatest possible opportunity I could have had.
And then one day I realized I didn't belong there.
(08:24):
When you think about the preferably business in itself, what was the jumping off point
that made you decide, I need to go make an AI business in the alcohol space over a decade
ago?
(08:46):
The idea went back more than a decade.
The idea was actually in the making when I was working in finance.
There is a notebook inside of a safety deposit box with a whole group of labels, wine labels.
(09:07):
And during my years working, I was incredibly focused on understanding other people's tastes
in wine.
I was just deeply curious about it.
Quite frankly, it became a career advantage.
It became a professional advantage to really understand this industry.
You mean the banking industry, when you were taking clients' places, the more you understood
(09:29):
someone's taste preference, the more it would allow you to have a competitive edge.
That's correct.
And it allowed me personally to have a competitive edge.
The capital markets are a place where people don't take prisoners, right?
It allowed me to have an edge in developing relationships with my clients, people who
were entrepreneurs and ventures in their own right.
(09:51):
And so I got a very, very clear insight as to that.
This idea that it should transform into what is now the single greatest scientific revolution
of our time, maybe something that even starts to explain the nature of human consciousness,
(10:14):
something quite that deep.
I'm just focused on the commercial side.
It was something that was very, very early on.
The hardware was out.
Apple had released the iPhone.
It was beautiful.
Everybody wanted to use it.
And all the action was in the software.
So for me, it was just whether or not we could write code that could behave like a human
(10:35):
expert at scale.
That's all I was focused on.
And so recruiting a team that was way smarter than I am with respect to being able to do
something like that, that was critical.
That was critical.
That's so funny.
And maybe it's something that I identified in you early on as an entrepreneur.
(10:57):
I feel very proud of the Coupé team.
And when I think about problems, I've hired people and I've been lucky to recruit people
to our cause that are far better at their respective roles than I would ever be.
And generally speaking, the day-to-day minutiae and the challenges that they overcome, I generally
(11:20):
don't see.
But when you have very brilliant people bringing you their problems and they don't know what
to do with the answers and they're generally better, that is truly the burden of leadership
when you have to sit down and make some hard decisions with limited information.
And you've highlighted how strong your co-founder is.
(11:41):
I mean, Andrew Sussman is an incredibly strong attorney.
He's a technologist by background, attorney by training.
You two are each other's yin to their yang.
You are a great co-founder pair together.
And the way you've spoken about him is something I really, really am impressed by.
(12:01):
Could you share a little bit more about the other experts and extraordinary people on
the Preferably team?
We started with the engineering team.
We started with three PhDs.
Our chief science officer, Steve, is a PhD in human physiology.
He's also expert in numerical systems, applied mathematics, AI generally, machine learning
(12:26):
in particular.
He's the first author on nine of our 12 patents.
He was the one that was going to lead write the code that behaved like a human expert.
He is joined by two other PhDs, both of whom are expert in artificial intelligence and
one of whom is expert in large language models.
(12:50):
What we think of natural language processing, which is of course of the moment today, that
team is reinforced by other engineers as well.
And without the engineering team, the code just doesn't exist.
The ones and zeros provide the technical infrastructure for then the softer side.
(13:12):
Look, you know, Alison, I knew a fair amount about wine.
I know more today.
The more I know, the more we all know.
By the way, can I adopt this dog?
I just, by the way, why did you get him?
Why is he on my lap?
But I knew I would never be expert the way masters of wine and masters sommeliers are.
(13:36):
And so at the beginning, we knew for sure we had to bring on what has now become the
largest group of masters of wine and masters sommeliers in the world.
Sherry leads that team.
She is, she's a spectacular mind.
She has a gentle style that is able to bring together this team of people that effectively,
(14:01):
we all woke up one day and we decided to do something that, well, everybody thought we
were nuts.
They certainly told us we were, which was to taste through the entire world of wine
and spirits for the presence and the absence of all the characteristics that the code was
going to need to do its job.
And these people have done it.
For those that feel intimidated by artificial intelligence, it's something that is very
(14:27):
in vogue to talk about these days.
Many folks hear about systems or even interact with systems or use systems like chat GPT
or other broad spectrum artificial intelligence tools that allow them to augment their bandwidth.
(14:50):
Quickly write an article or quickly look up something or summarize a book.
I mean, there's chat GPT has really shown mainstream consumer how artificial intelligence
can be valuable.
I think there's a major renaissance now for how businesses are starting to realize, wow,
if this is making my personal life easier, how can we bring this into the workplace?
(15:15):
Could you speak a little bit about the importance of proprietary data and maybe help somebody
in the industry that doesn't think about AI every day, why they should care about proprietary
data?
Chat GPT was, well, it was the single greatest market development for our platform, for our
(15:39):
business.
For the reason that you mentioned, it awakened people's awareness of what code could do,
how code could work beside them, alongside them.
These models, and there are a number of other what we think of as foundational models, these
models are really nothing more and nothing less, and they're very, very good at it, but
(16:05):
they are effectively predictor models for words.
They don't think, at least not yet, but the data they use is structured from the entire
internet, so all of the data that exists in the world in a public place.
As it turns out, amongst all of those data, and there are a lot of data, as it turns out,
(16:28):
there are no data on wine that are accurate, consistent, and truly impartial.
They are a combination of characteristics that are more oriented toward market messaging
and convincing people to buy rather than explaining what something tastes like.
(16:50):
And certainly, it doesn't have data that allows somebody to align across wines, red, white,
rosé, sparkling, fortified, and across spirits or anything else that we would drink in the
world of adult beverage, certainly not food.
So it was a critical decision.
It was an early decision for us to develop our own proprietary data, and why it matters
(17:13):
to businesses today is because unlike consumers in a casual environment that are just experimenting
with AI, imagining what it could do for their lives, these businesses will be made or broken
by the accuracy of the functionality that comes out of our platform, comes through our
(17:34):
platform.
If we don't have accurate data, it doesn't matter how good the algorithms are.
It doesn't matter whether the code, the ones and zeros, can give rise to the nature of
preference for someone and create discovery, make recommendations.
It just doesn't matter.
You're working with the wrong data.
So think of it as brainwaves that are now accompanied by some life experience.
(17:58):
You really need both.
And if you ask the questions of ChatGPT versus asking the questions of our gen I experience,
the answers are really very different.
And so ultimately, the proof is in that pudding.
And to say the points that you had shared, the accuracy of the data across the industry
(18:24):
is not regulated.
You've seen some governmental regulation around what could be on a label, or what could maybe
go into the use of words like organic.
There's clear guidelines and rules around some of the actual messaging to consumers.
But at the data layer is what you're saying.
If one winery says their wine is something, and another winery says their wine is the
(18:49):
same thing, that may or may not be true in both cases.
And so the work that you have done over the last decade is actually creating the proprietary
database of the largest body of master's psalms and masters of wine to try every commercially
available alcohol and actually calibrate the correct answer.
(19:11):
So that the proprietary data is accurate.
That is going to be one of the major things that I believe sets this industry on a course
to moving forward with gen AI in particular, but across the industry itself.
(19:31):
There's never been a neutral body.
Everybody has always had some underlying commercial agenda to get their message out.
And that was one of the first things that stood out to me in our conversations was your
foresight to understand the power of accurate calibrated data.
(19:52):
It's just so powerful when you think through the applications that anybody that sells alcohol
is going to need to make their AI decisions on.
If they don't have the accurate calibrated information, they're not going to be able
to use AI in their business in a way that actually is effective.
(20:13):
That is correct.
And it was a decision we had to make early on one way or the other.
It required a lift though that was extraordinary.
And for many years, it wasn't understood what it was we were actually doing and why we were
doing it.
We were just a group of people working together with a dream.
(20:37):
We knew we were right.
We just didn't know when that would be proven out.
But we kept at it because we really believed it.
Building in stealth is an entrepreneurial backbone that I admire and commend you for.
You did it for 10 years.
(20:59):
The Kuvei business from start three years ago to now, we didn't have the same level
of deep tech build that you did.
I had so many times in our entrepreneurial journey where people didn't understand what
we were doing, but we can always speak to it.
(21:20):
And so on a one-on-one basis, you could usually demystify that.
But I'm so impressed with your ability to just stick at it.
Working on machine learning, working on proprietary data over 10 plus years is truly a knowing
you're right, knowing you're early, and just waiting the market out.
(21:42):
The market's here.
And you've positioned yourself phenomenally and we're very lucky and excited to join the
organization.
Let's just ask a couple of quick questions about the acquisition from your point of view.
Why did you decide to acquire Kuvei?
The team knows more about consumer than anyone else in the industry.
(22:04):
Why would we seek to work with anyone other than the very best?
Thank you.
It's true.
And besides our team, was there anything else that you saw that was a value add to the business?
Without doubt, many things.
For both me and Andrew Sussman, my co-founder, it started with the team and it ended with
(22:31):
the team.
It was the most important decision we were ever going to make with respect to the acquisition
because we weren't just interested in the people and what they had already built.
We were interested in the people and what they imagined building and what they wanted
to build.
And so for us, looking at the tech that you'd built was a window into what you thought was
(22:55):
important in the consumer market.
So for me to make the judgment that you're the best in consumer, it was certainly through
our conversations.
I had evidence though.
All I had to do was open up the software and take a look.
And the focus that you had on serving businesses, serving local businesses, that was the first
(23:17):
thing that revealed itself to me.
And that is why we were so excited because we shared that DNA.
If we can't add value to businesses, if we can't create more vibrancy for business operations,
we should just pack it in.
We knew the consumers would follow, would find the rest of your platform.
(23:39):
The focus on the businesses was particularly interesting to us.
Let's keep local Napa news alive by donating to Napa Valley News Group.
Napa Valley News Group is dedicated to preserving local voices and 100% of your tax deductible
donation goes directly to supporting Napa Valley news and journalists.
Every dollar truly makes a difference.
Head over to napa valley newsgroup.com to donate and keep our community informed.
(24:03):
That's Napa valley newsgroup.com.
Napa Valley News Group is a 501c3 non-profit.
100% of donations go to support local journalism in the Napa Valley. Tax ID 93-466-2744. Cheers.
From a marketplace standpoint, the biggest and it was never about the money, but the biggest
venture sized outcomes have always been in marketplaces. And I mean, we spent a lot of time
(24:30):
solving the cold start before we actually did building a consumer facing app. And when we felt
like we finally had cracked it, I think that that was very easy to then lay down, easy on a relative
basis from our background and experiences, relatively easy to lay down the fundamentals
of what the app should be. But cold starting a consumer marketplace is truly challenging.
(24:57):
And I mean, you've seen ones that have gone on to be very successful, Uber, Airbnb, etc. But
it took Airbnb three or four starts to actually get the cold start right. It took
Uber equally as long and Lyft equally as long, right? These are just, you need enough supply
and enough demand. And it took us better part of three years to get the cold start right. And
(25:22):
it's not because we didn't understand what was going, you just have to catch the waves and write
them in. But how do you think about the industry trends in the years ahead? What are some of the
aspects that you think are going to be really fundamental for anybody in the industry to pay
attention to? Something like Gen. AI feels quite daunting if it's not relevant to somebody working
(25:47):
in the seller, or if it's not in the day to day practices of somebody in the supply chain.
How are these industry trends going to impact either the preferably business or somebody in
the industry? There are trends that are underpinning AI that are important to talk about before we talk
(26:09):
about AI. And the reason is because AI is going to reflect these fundamental trends. They already
are. I think the first one is the coming together, the merging, the unification of hospitality and
retail. This idea of treating a shopper like a guest, treating somebody in a retail setting
(26:32):
like a guest in a hospitality environment, and within a hospitality environment, understanding
that there's a relationship that you can have and there are many products to be able to present.
I think that is a very, very important shift that has been ongoing for a couple of decades, but
is really, really coming to a head. I think there's one that's equally important, and this one
(26:57):
relates to both retail and hospitality. It is underpinned by digital technologies though, and
that's the unification of e-commerce and search. And all you have to do is look at the largest
platforms in the world, digital platforms in the world, and you'll see it. The third one, and this
is what is going to bring in AI, is this next trend. I love the examples that you gave of
(27:23):
marketplaces. I think all the action that's going to be, well, all the action that's interesting to
me is going to be in marketplaces. I think what's going to happen is, what's already happened,
is they've become multi-dimensional. And the marketplace effectively that we're building
is, of course, a marketplace of ecosystems. It's not a marketplace of distinct individual products.
(27:50):
It is not even a marketplace of distinct individual purveyors. It is a marketplace of
experiences. It is multi-dimensional. And if the core technology, the AI, is taste preference,
especially when you're working in our field, it seems to me to be the one thing that can unite it.
(28:13):
Gen. AI in particular is a reflection of the second trend, this idea that search could be prompted or
could be dynamic. And what we're finding is that there are a lot of people that want it to be
dynamic, not prompted. They just want a white piece of paper or a white screen. What's funny is they
want that until they don't. Then they want a prompt. And I think that the art of creating
(28:41):
interesting and helpful interfaces is going to live in the world of design.
Why I enjoy your co-founding partner's work so much. Daniele, of course, understands that in a
very, very deep way. And I think that's going to make the difference on software that is used a
lot and software that dominates. And I mean, I very much think the reason Cuvée was successful is
(29:08):
Daniele and I are each other's yin and their yang. I mean, Daniele wants it right. And I'm very much
somebody who wants it right now. And between those two things, we've found a cadence of pushing
enough things that are almost right fast enough. There's always that natural tension with co-founders.
I mean, you need it. You need somebody to be stronger than you in the things that you're weak
(29:32):
at. You do not need to be excellent at everything. You need to be able to have people around you that
are excellent at whatever they do. You need someone who's willing to challenge you.
Oh, totally. And love you even when they're done challenging you.
Yeah, totally. And I think the, I mean, I would tell any entrepreneur starting a business, you
need to do something with some people that will be there for you on your lowest moments and your
(29:58):
darkest days. And you also need to be on a mission that keeps everybody incredibly energized even on
those hard moments. I mean, I can't tell you how many times in the startup business that you're
in the startup journey from the zero to one, like the zero until our first million dollars of revenue,
it was extremely, extremely challenging. I think the second to the next hundred million is inevitable
(30:22):
now that we got the cold start right. And that took all of our energy. And I'm so excited to
join the Preferably Organization and Leadership team with you and Denielli and Andrew Sussman.
And we have so much more to do and achieve, but it doesn't feel like we're doing it on a limited
(30:43):
resource base and just a small team. It feels like we're joining a group of extraordinary people.
I mean, I've been incredibly impressed of the technologists, the thinking, the leadership,
the groups of the Masters of Wine or the Masters of Moliers that we've had exposure to. I think
it's just going to push us to a level of content production or marketing or growth or industry
(31:09):
trend changing activity that will keep us at the forefront of setting technology trends in this
industry. I mean, the alcohol industry is notorious for slow to innovate because they haven't had to
innovate. And I think we're starting to see the consolidation of these large companies
put themselves at capital risk where consumer trends change so quickly, but their capex cycles
(31:32):
are so long that it's going to be interesting to see how we continue to find and develop our
footing as we expand this business. It's very, very fun to work on this business as it is.
25 is going to be even more exciting and bright than even the last few years have been. So,
(31:52):
thank you very much for jumping on today's episode of NetValley Insider. We have more
announcements in the weeks and months ahead, but having you on today as a guest of a podcast that
is now our podcast is- It feels good.
It's a treat to me. And thank you very much.
Thank you.
(32:13):
Again, I'm Andrew Allison. I am the Chief Growth Officer of preferably, in today's guest's
of preferably, and today's guest was Pam Dillon, the CEO of preferably, talking about the
acquisition of Cuvée and a little bit of the preferably background. Thank you very much.
Cheers.
The industry insider podcast has been brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide.
(32:36):
Download the app for iPhone today and start planning your perfect wine country adventure.
Find out more at CuvéeApp.com. Cheers.
This is the Industry Insider Podcast, brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide, powered
(00:07):
by Preferably, with your host, Andrew Allison.
All right, all right, all right.
Welcome back to another episode of Napa Valley Insider.
Today I have a guest I'm so excited to introduce you to, and we will have a little bit of news
over the course of the episode, but let's keep it traditional.
Who are you and what do you do?
(00:29):
Good morning, Allison.
I am Pam Dillon.
I am the co-founder and CEO of a software company called Preferably.
We are focused on wine, spirits, and food.
And for those that don't know, we have a little bit of news.
(00:51):
And so Cuvée has been three years in the making, and Pam Dillon and her partner and their investor
base have shown interest in acquiring Cuvée.
We have.
And so this would be one of the last episodes that I actually have the opportunity to introduce
(01:13):
myself as the CEO of Cuvée, because I am now the chief growth officer of Preferably.
And welcome.
It's so nice to be had.
Before we go too much into the acquisition, which I would love to talk about, please tell
me what is the origin story of Pam Dillon and how did you become the person that you
(01:34):
are today leading an industry-changing technology company?
The irony is that I fell for wine right here in Napa.
For me, this is coming home.
This is coming full circle.
When decades ago, I came to this part of the world and I fell.
(01:59):
I fell really, really hard for this industry.
I fell really hard for the storytelling, for the romance, for the taste of the wines themselves,
for the lifestyle.
And it was something I couldn't shake, even though I worked for many, many years, completely
(02:21):
different industry.
It was one of those things in life that just didn't go away.
It just kept coming up.
It kept coming up again and again.
And starting Preferably, I realize now it's my third career.
Gosh, it's the best one by far.
The idea from the very beginning was to build software that would bring together the supply
(02:46):
side and the demand side, businesses and consumers through the prism of personal taste preference.
And when we had this idea, my co-funding partner, Andrew Sussman and I, why I call you Allison,
the idea from the very beginning was to work with the voice of the consumer, was to use
(03:13):
as a point of departure when a consumer tasted a wine, did they like it or not?
And what could we do with that?
Could we use that, that digital signal?
Could we use that to build an entire platform?
Could we build software that would work like a human expert at scale?
And bringing Steve Dillon, our chief science officer, who I remember when we recruited
(03:39):
him and he said, yeah, right, no biggie, I'll write that code.
And on the way, maybe I'll win a couple of Nobel prizes because of what we imagined at
the time was what people refer to as AI today.
But we were working in that field 10 years ago.
Our first patent indeed was awarded 10 years ago.
(04:00):
And so it has fully realized itself.
And I think today with our announcement, even more so coming full circle to the place that
I remember very distinctly falling in love with wine.
I am so excited to talk about what preferably does with our community.
(04:22):
But before we do, what was your upbringing?
Where did you go to school?
What was your first job out of school?
Wow, you're taking me way back.
I'm from the East Coast.
I feel like I have a California soul somehow.
I'm not sure where I got it.
But I'm born and raised just outside of New York.
(04:45):
My father was a New Yorker.
My father was born and raised in Hell's Kitchen, back when it really was Hell's Kitchen.
My mother was from the other side of the tracks, and she studied languages.
She studied literature.
She studied and was deeply, deeply taken by culture, international culture.
(05:10):
And so I was raised in a home where I got both sides of it.
I got the entrepreneurial side, the scrappy, you know, walk the street side from my dad.
And I got a love of international culture from my mom.
I feel like I could not have been more lucky.
(05:32):
And maybe it's because I have their DNA that I appreciate it, that I see it that way.
But it was a happy home.
It was in a quiet neighborhood in northern New Jersey.
It paved the way for, I think, the very deep base of confidence that I have as a person
(05:53):
to just wake up one day and do whatever it is I want to do.
I got very, very lucky.
Amazing.
And let's jump into that career, before you started preferably.
Where did you work prior?
My dad worked in the finance industry, the banking industry.
(06:14):
He had really, really made good.
When he graduated from high school, he could have gone one way or another.
He could have, he was offered a professional contract for the Cincinnati Reds.
He was the best stickball player in New York.
And he was also offered the opportunity to go to New York University.
And that was the one he took.
And when he graduated, he was immediately focused on the capital markets, banking, banking
(06:39):
and finance.
And when I graduated, I went to the University of Pennsylvania.
When I graduated, I seeked to follow in his footsteps.
Not immediately, but I came to my senses soon enough.
I realized that the banking industry, the finance industry would be a brilliant underpinning
(07:01):
for anything else I was ever going to do.
Understanding money, the movement of money, how money can change things, was at the time
I thought really, really solid training.
It turns out it was also the number one place that anybody graduating from the university
wanted to go to because it was Wall Street at that time.
So I worked for Goldman Sachs for years.
(07:24):
I was hired into the New York office, was transferred very soon to the London office.
It was during the first Tech-O round.
I felt a core part of the development of that market being based in London, working on the
continent during the first Tech-O round.
I really understand infrastructure today because of that.
(07:46):
I understand how AI is really the next phase of infrastructure for everything that was
going to be built.
It was the greatest possible opportunity I could have had.
And then one day I realized I didn't belong there.
(08:24):
When you think about the preferably business in itself, what was the jumping off point
that made you decide, I need to go make an AI business in the alcohol space over a decade
ago?
(08:46):
The idea went back more than a decade.
The idea was actually in the making when I was working in finance.
There is a notebook inside of a safety deposit box with a whole group of labels, wine labels.
(09:07):
And during my years working, I was incredibly focused on understanding other people's tastes
in wine.
I was just deeply curious about it.
Quite frankly, it became a career advantage.
It became a professional advantage to really understand this industry.
You mean the banking industry, when you were taking clients' places, the more you understood
(09:29):
someone's taste preference, the more it would allow you to have a competitive edge.
That's correct.
And it allowed me personally to have a competitive edge.
The capital markets are a place where people don't take prisoners, right?
It allowed me to have an edge in developing relationships with my clients, people who
were entrepreneurs and ventures in their own right.
(09:51):
And so I got a very, very clear insight as to that.
This idea that it should transform into what is now the single greatest scientific revolution
of our time, maybe something that even starts to explain the nature of human consciousness,
(10:14):
something quite that deep.
I'm just focused on the commercial side.
It was something that was very, very early on.
The hardware was out.
Apple had released the iPhone.
It was beautiful.
Everybody wanted to use it.
And all the action was in the software.
So for me, it was just whether or not we could write code that could behave like a human
(10:35):
expert at scale.
That's all I was focused on.
And so recruiting a team that was way smarter than I am with respect to being able to do
something like that, that was critical.
That was critical.
That's so funny.
And maybe it's something that I identified in you early on as an entrepreneur.
(10:57):
I feel very proud of the Coupé team.
And when I think about problems, I've hired people and I've been lucky to recruit people
to our cause that are far better at their respective roles than I would ever be.
And generally speaking, the day-to-day minutiae and the challenges that they overcome, I generally
(11:20):
don't see.
But when you have very brilliant people bringing you their problems and they don't know what
to do with the answers and they're generally better, that is truly the burden of leadership
when you have to sit down and make some hard decisions with limited information.
And you've highlighted how strong your co-founder is.
(11:41):
I mean, Andrew Sussman is an incredibly strong attorney.
He's a technologist by background, attorney by training.
You two are each other's yin to their yang.
You are a great co-founder pair together.
And the way you've spoken about him is something I really, really am impressed by.
(12:01):
Could you share a little bit more about the other experts and extraordinary people on
the Preferably team?
We started with the engineering team.
We started with three PhDs.
Our chief science officer, Steve, is a PhD in human physiology.
He's also expert in numerical systems, applied mathematics, AI generally, machine learning
(12:26):
in particular.
He's the first author on nine of our 12 patents.
He was the one that was going to lead write the code that behaved like a human expert.
He is joined by two other PhDs, both of whom are expert in artificial intelligence and
one of whom is expert in large language models.
(12:50):
What we think of natural language processing, which is of course of the moment today, that
team is reinforced by other engineers as well.
And without the engineering team, the code just doesn't exist.
The ones and zeros provide the technical infrastructure for then the softer side.
(13:12):
Look, you know, Alison, I knew a fair amount about wine.
I know more today.
The more I know, the more we all know.
By the way, can I adopt this dog?
I just, by the way, why did you get him?
Why is he on my lap?
But I knew I would never be expert the way masters of wine and masters sommeliers are.
(13:36):
And so at the beginning, we knew for sure we had to bring on what has now become the
largest group of masters of wine and masters sommeliers in the world.
Sherry leads that team.
She is, she's a spectacular mind.
She has a gentle style that is able to bring together this team of people that effectively,
(14:01):
we all woke up one day and we decided to do something that, well, everybody thought we
were nuts.
They certainly told us we were, which was to taste through the entire world of wine
and spirits for the presence and the absence of all the characteristics that the code was
going to need to do its job.
And these people have done it.
For those that feel intimidated by artificial intelligence, it's something that is very
(14:27):
in vogue to talk about these days.
Many folks hear about systems or even interact with systems or use systems like chat GPT
or other broad spectrum artificial intelligence tools that allow them to augment their bandwidth.
(14:50):
Quickly write an article or quickly look up something or summarize a book.
I mean, there's chat GPT has really shown mainstream consumer how artificial intelligence
can be valuable.
I think there's a major renaissance now for how businesses are starting to realize, wow,
if this is making my personal life easier, how can we bring this into the workplace?
(15:15):
Could you speak a little bit about the importance of proprietary data and maybe help somebody
in the industry that doesn't think about AI every day, why they should care about proprietary
data?
Chat GPT was, well, it was the single greatest market development for our platform, for our
(15:39):
business.
For the reason that you mentioned, it awakened people's awareness of what code could do,
how code could work beside them, alongside them.
These models, and there are a number of other what we think of as foundational models, these
models are really nothing more and nothing less, and they're very, very good at it, but
(16:05):
they are effectively predictor models for words.
They don't think, at least not yet, but the data they use is structured from the entire
internet, so all of the data that exists in the world in a public place.
As it turns out, amongst all of those data, and there are a lot of data, as it turns out,
(16:28):
there are no data on wine that are accurate, consistent, and truly impartial.
They are a combination of characteristics that are more oriented toward market messaging
and convincing people to buy rather than explaining what something tastes like.
(16:50):
And certainly, it doesn't have data that allows somebody to align across wines, red, white,
rosé, sparkling, fortified, and across spirits or anything else that we would drink in the
world of adult beverage, certainly not food.
So it was a critical decision.
It was an early decision for us to develop our own proprietary data, and why it matters
(17:13):
to businesses today is because unlike consumers in a casual environment that are just experimenting
with AI, imagining what it could do for their lives, these businesses will be made or broken
by the accuracy of the functionality that comes out of our platform, comes through our
(17:34):
platform.
If we don't have accurate data, it doesn't matter how good the algorithms are.
It doesn't matter whether the code, the ones and zeros, can give rise to the nature of
preference for someone and create discovery, make recommendations.
It just doesn't matter.
You're working with the wrong data.
So think of it as brainwaves that are now accompanied by some life experience.
(17:58):
You really need both.
And if you ask the questions of ChatGPT versus asking the questions of our gen I experience,
the answers are really very different.
And so ultimately, the proof is in that pudding.
And to say the points that you had shared, the accuracy of the data across the industry
(18:24):
is not regulated.
You've seen some governmental regulation around what could be on a label, or what could maybe
go into the use of words like organic.
There's clear guidelines and rules around some of the actual messaging to consumers.
But at the data layer is what you're saying.
If one winery says their wine is something, and another winery says their wine is the
(18:49):
same thing, that may or may not be true in both cases.
And so the work that you have done over the last decade is actually creating the proprietary
database of the largest body of master's psalms and masters of wine to try every commercially
available alcohol and actually calibrate the correct answer.
(19:11):
So that the proprietary data is accurate.
That is going to be one of the major things that I believe sets this industry on a course
to moving forward with gen AI in particular, but across the industry itself.
(19:31):
There's never been a neutral body.
Everybody has always had some underlying commercial agenda to get their message out.
And that was one of the first things that stood out to me in our conversations was your
foresight to understand the power of accurate calibrated data.
(19:52):
It's just so powerful when you think through the applications that anybody that sells alcohol
is going to need to make their AI decisions on.
If they don't have the accurate calibrated information, they're not going to be able
to use AI in their business in a way that actually is effective.
(20:13):
That is correct.
And it was a decision we had to make early on one way or the other.
It required a lift though that was extraordinary.
And for many years, it wasn't understood what it was we were actually doing and why we were
doing it.
We were just a group of people working together with a dream.
(20:37):
We knew we were right.
We just didn't know when that would be proven out.
But we kept at it because we really believed it.
Building in stealth is an entrepreneurial backbone that I admire and commend you for.
You did it for 10 years.
(20:59):
The Kuvei business from start three years ago to now, we didn't have the same level
of deep tech build that you did.
I had so many times in our entrepreneurial journey where people didn't understand what
we were doing, but we can always speak to it.
(21:20):
And so on a one-on-one basis, you could usually demystify that.
But I'm so impressed with your ability to just stick at it.
Working on machine learning, working on proprietary data over 10 plus years is truly a knowing
you're right, knowing you're early, and just waiting the market out.
(21:42):
The market's here.
And you've positioned yourself phenomenally and we're very lucky and excited to join the
organization.
Let's just ask a couple of quick questions about the acquisition from your point of view.
Why did you decide to acquire Kuvei?
The team knows more about consumer than anyone else in the industry.
(22:04):
Why would we seek to work with anyone other than the very best?
Thank you.
It's true.
And besides our team, was there anything else that you saw that was a value add to the business?
Without doubt, many things.
For both me and Andrew Sussman, my co-founder, it started with the team and it ended with
(22:31):
the team.
It was the most important decision we were ever going to make with respect to the acquisition
because we weren't just interested in the people and what they had already built.
We were interested in the people and what they imagined building and what they wanted
to build.
And so for us, looking at the tech that you'd built was a window into what you thought was
(22:55):
important in the consumer market.
So for me to make the judgment that you're the best in consumer, it was certainly through
our conversations.
I had evidence though.
All I had to do was open up the software and take a look.
And the focus that you had on serving businesses, serving local businesses, that was the first
(23:17):
thing that revealed itself to me.
And that is why we were so excited because we shared that DNA.
If we can't add value to businesses, if we can't create more vibrancy for business operations,
we should just pack it in.
We knew the consumers would follow, would find the rest of your platform.
(23:39):
The focus on the businesses was particularly interesting to us.
Let's keep local Napa news alive by donating to Napa Valley News Group.
Napa Valley News Group is dedicated to preserving local voices and 100% of your tax deductible
donation goes directly to supporting Napa Valley news and journalists.
Every dollar truly makes a difference.
Head over to napa valley newsgroup.com to donate and keep our community informed.
(24:03):
That's Napa valley newsgroup.com.
Napa Valley News Group is a 501c3 non-profit.
100% of donations go to support local journalism in the Napa Valley. Tax ID 93-466-2744. Cheers.
From a marketplace standpoint, the biggest and it was never about the money, but the biggest
venture sized outcomes have always been in marketplaces. And I mean, we spent a lot of time
(24:30):
solving the cold start before we actually did building a consumer facing app. And when we felt
like we finally had cracked it, I think that that was very easy to then lay down, easy on a relative
basis from our background and experiences, relatively easy to lay down the fundamentals
of what the app should be. But cold starting a consumer marketplace is truly challenging.
(24:57):
And I mean, you've seen ones that have gone on to be very successful, Uber, Airbnb, etc. But
it took Airbnb three or four starts to actually get the cold start right. It took
Uber equally as long and Lyft equally as long, right? These are just, you need enough supply
and enough demand. And it took us better part of three years to get the cold start right. And
(25:22):
it's not because we didn't understand what was going, you just have to catch the waves and write
them in. But how do you think about the industry trends in the years ahead? What are some of the
aspects that you think are going to be really fundamental for anybody in the industry to pay
attention to? Something like Gen. AI feels quite daunting if it's not relevant to somebody working
(25:47):
in the seller, or if it's not in the day to day practices of somebody in the supply chain.
How are these industry trends going to impact either the preferably business or somebody in
the industry? There are trends that are underpinning AI that are important to talk about before we talk
(26:09):
about AI. And the reason is because AI is going to reflect these fundamental trends. They already
are. I think the first one is the coming together, the merging, the unification of hospitality and
retail. This idea of treating a shopper like a guest, treating somebody in a retail setting
(26:32):
like a guest in a hospitality environment, and within a hospitality environment, understanding
that there's a relationship that you can have and there are many products to be able to present.
I think that is a very, very important shift that has been ongoing for a couple of decades, but
is really, really coming to a head. I think there's one that's equally important, and this one
(26:57):
relates to both retail and hospitality. It is underpinned by digital technologies though, and
that's the unification of e-commerce and search. And all you have to do is look at the largest
platforms in the world, digital platforms in the world, and you'll see it. The third one, and this
is what is going to bring in AI, is this next trend. I love the examples that you gave of
(27:23):
marketplaces. I think all the action that's going to be, well, all the action that's interesting to
me is going to be in marketplaces. I think what's going to happen is, what's already happened,
is they've become multi-dimensional. And the marketplace effectively that we're building
is, of course, a marketplace of ecosystems. It's not a marketplace of distinct individual products.
(27:50):
It is not even a marketplace of distinct individual purveyors. It is a marketplace of
experiences. It is multi-dimensional. And if the core technology, the AI, is taste preference,
especially when you're working in our field, it seems to me to be the one thing that can unite it.
(28:13):
Gen. AI in particular is a reflection of the second trend, this idea that search could be prompted or
could be dynamic. And what we're finding is that there are a lot of people that want it to be
dynamic, not prompted. They just want a white piece of paper or a white screen. What's funny is they
want that until they don't. Then they want a prompt. And I think that the art of creating
(28:41):
interesting and helpful interfaces is going to live in the world of design.
Why I enjoy your co-founding partner's work so much. Daniele, of course, understands that in a
very, very deep way. And I think that's going to make the difference on software that is used a
lot and software that dominates. And I mean, I very much think the reason Cuvée was successful is
(29:08):
Daniele and I are each other's yin and their yang. I mean, Daniele wants it right. And I'm very much
somebody who wants it right now. And between those two things, we've found a cadence of pushing
enough things that are almost right fast enough. There's always that natural tension with co-founders.
I mean, you need it. You need somebody to be stronger than you in the things that you're weak
(29:32):
at. You do not need to be excellent at everything. You need to be able to have people around you that
are excellent at whatever they do. You need someone who's willing to challenge you.
Oh, totally. And love you even when they're done challenging you.
Yeah, totally. And I think the, I mean, I would tell any entrepreneur starting a business, you
need to do something with some people that will be there for you on your lowest moments and your
(29:58):
darkest days. And you also need to be on a mission that keeps everybody incredibly energized even on
those hard moments. I mean, I can't tell you how many times in the startup business that you're
in the startup journey from the zero to one, like the zero until our first million dollars of revenue,
it was extremely, extremely challenging. I think the second to the next hundred million is inevitable
(30:22):
now that we got the cold start right. And that took all of our energy. And I'm so excited to
join the Preferably Organization and Leadership team with you and Denielli and Andrew Sussman.
And we have so much more to do and achieve, but it doesn't feel like we're doing it on a limited
(30:43):
resource base and just a small team. It feels like we're joining a group of extraordinary people.
I mean, I've been incredibly impressed of the technologists, the thinking, the leadership,
the groups of the Masters of Wine or the Masters of Moliers that we've had exposure to. I think
it's just going to push us to a level of content production or marketing or growth or industry
(31:09):
trend changing activity that will keep us at the forefront of setting technology trends in this
industry. I mean, the alcohol industry is notorious for slow to innovate because they haven't had to
innovate. And I think we're starting to see the consolidation of these large companies
put themselves at capital risk where consumer trends change so quickly, but their capex cycles
(31:32):
are so long that it's going to be interesting to see how we continue to find and develop our
footing as we expand this business. It's very, very fun to work on this business as it is.
25 is going to be even more exciting and bright than even the last few years have been. So,
(31:52):
thank you very much for jumping on today's episode of NetValley Insider. We have more
announcements in the weeks and months ahead, but having you on today as a guest of a podcast that
is now our podcast is- It feels good.
It's a treat to me. And thank you very much.
Thank you.
(32:13):
Again, I'm Andrew Allison. I am the Chief Growth Officer of preferably, in today's guest's
of preferably, and today's guest was Pam Dillon, the CEO of preferably, talking about the
acquisition of Cuvée and a little bit of the preferably background. Thank you very much.
Cheers.
The industry insider podcast has been brought to you by Cuvée, the Napa Winery Guide.
(32:36):
Download the app for iPhone today and start planning your perfect wine country adventure.
Find out more at CuvéeApp.com. Cheers.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.