March 31, 2025 • 47 mins
In this captivating conversation, Danny Williams invites us into his journey toward a more natural way of living. His story weaves together childhood memories of playing in creeks and fishing with his father, professional challenges and personal health struggles, and a vision of land stewardship that prioritizes diversity, sustainability, and community.
Danny shares practical wisdom about sheet mulching, tree guilds, and food forests and the patience required when working with nature rather than against it. "Where we put down a new sheet mulch area, we don't anticipate planting anything there for about three years," he explains – revealing both the challenges and rewards of ecological restoration.
However his most poignant insight might be the simplest: "The best times I've had fishing with my son are the times when I put my fishing pole down" – a reminder that our outdoor experiences are ultimately about relationships, not just productivity.
Whether you have 1,000 acres of land or just a windowsill, this episode offers inspiration and practical starting points for bringing more ecological balance to your surroundings. Join us as we discover how small changes in how we manage our landscapes can help bring back the fireflies – and so much more.
To learn more about Danny and his business, Dreams & Visions, visit https://www.dandvcontracting.com/
🔗 The Biggest Little Farm Movie
🔗 Joel Salatin, The Lunatic Farmer
🔗 The John Hershey Food Forest
_______________________
What is the Natural Obsession Podcast all about?
Growing up, we all had those moments in nature that stuck with us—whether it was a quiet walk in the woods or a grand adventure. On Natural Obsession, it’s our desire to bring those moments to life. As we talk to people from all walks of life we will learn how they fell in love with the outdoors, the different ways they enjoy it today, and explore how we can work together to ensure these spaces are around for years to come. It’s all about sharing memories from the outdoors and ensuring future generations can make their own.
To find out more about Natural Obsession and hosts, Daniel Emison and TJ Virden, visit our website at https://www.natob.co/.
If you have questions about episodes or have guest recommendations please email us at info@natob.co.
Follow us on social media to keep up with upcoming guests and episode info:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:50):
Today we are joined by our goodfriend of 15 years,
entrepreneur, family man,outdoorsman, Danny Williams.
Danny, welcome to the podcast.
Danny (00:58):
Man, I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
TJ (01:00):
Glad to have you.
Danny (01:06):
So 15 years, you said maybe 20 years, probably for me,
and you 20 years because youmoved to conway, uh, whenever
that was, I think I would havebeen around 18.
TJ (01:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's about 20 years.
Danny (01:13):
I was thinking about that earlier today.
TJ (01:15):
Yeah, and daniel when did you come in probably?
Daniel (01:16):
about 15 years ago, when we were going to conway
nazarene.
Is that what?
TJ (01:21):
yeah, yeah, okay.
So I started going to churchtogether at that point in time.
Daniel (01:25):
We're in the same Bible study.
TJ (01:28):
Danny, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit
about yourself, your family,where you came from, maybe how
your journey in the outdoors gotstarted?
Danny (01:36):
Yeah, sure.
So I just turned 40 this year.
Daniel (01:41):
I'm about there.
Yeah, I'm there, trailing rightbehind me.
Danny (01:45):
I've been married for.
This may be 18 years.
Yeah, I know, right, and we'vegot a couple kids Piper and
Lincoln.
They're 12 and 10.
You know, I grew up CentralArkansas, right outside of
Conway it's kind of rural,especially back then Pickles Gap
area, and so we had a lot of,we had a lot of land around us.
(02:06):
We we didn't have a lot of land, but we were surrounded by it
woods, cow pasture, creeks.
You know that was my playground.
We never had cable, we didn't,you know, have other, a lot of
other ways to entertainourselves.
So I spent a lot of timeoutside and so I would just like
go and play in the Creek,sometimes all day, you know,
yeah, um, and so it was a coolerspot in the summer to go in the
(02:29):
Creek, and you know there weresome scary things, like you're a
little and you're coming acrosssnakes and all these different
kinds of wildlife.
But I think, um, you knowthat's pretty cool, cause when
you get older you're all used toit, you know about it, you're
comfortable with it.
Daniel (02:44):
Yeah, loses that magic a little bit.
Yeah, maybe a little bit.
Danny (02:49):
Yeah, not not totally, but yeah, but um, but yeah, that
was, was it?
Yeah?
Daniel (02:53):
so did your brother and sister.
Do they go in the woods at all?
TJ (02:58):
or before you or after you, I know y'all.
Danny (02:59):
Yeah, I don't think I don't think my sister's ever
been really drawn to it and youknow my meal on Papaw had a spot
for several years.
They had bought 20 acres.
that was kind of in the middleof National Forest in a place
called Nogo, right outside ofHector on the East Fork Illinois
(03:19):
Bayou, and so I know my brotherhas fond memories of that place
, as do I.
It was a pretty magical placein the bottom of the valley down
there, surrounded by nothing.
But other than that, you know,I don't think he's ever been
like super into spending time inthe outdoors too much.
TJ (03:33):
Yeah, so we spent a lot of time on the Illinois Bayou in
kayaks and canoes and stuff.
It was a really cool place.
Got some stories from.
There.
Yeah, so did your parents spendmuch time outdoors?
Danny (03:43):
My grandpa on my mom's side.
You know she grew up in Rogers,arkansas, up there in northwest
Arkansas, and she grew up on a40-acre farm and so you know we
always went up there as often aswe could when we were kids and
for me being on that farm wasjust one of the best things ever
(04:04):
, with grandpa having a free runof the farm.
You know he he had I don't knowhow many head of cattle, but we
would always go feed the cattleand I would always play around.
Look at all those tractors.
I remember the first timegetting on one of those I don't
even remember it was like one ofthose old where, like you know,
the front tires are all angled,angled in, or whatever, papa
johnny or one of those, oh mygoodness gracious, in the clutch
(04:24):
and the front tires come offand.
I'm about lost my mind atprobably six years old or
something like that.
But yeah, everything about allthe adventure that you could
find on that farm was was youknow, that was just for me, you
know what I mean.
So, yeah, I that was kinda thatwas kinda my upbringing was
those, uh, those were theinfluences at least that um
(04:46):
stuck with me and that wereimpactful to me were just all
the outdoor opportunities.
My dad at some point, like Ithink it was around the time
that I was getting old enough togo with him around four or five
, um, I think he had some guysat work that were big into
crappie fishing and so hestarted going with them and then
we got a little 14 foot, youknow, like 14 by 36 john boat
(05:10):
like a seven horse outboard, youknow, and uh, and so then we
were like rocking and rollingbecause we go to the backside of
beaver fork or we go out, likeconway, uh.
And so, yeah, we did, um, Ithink we, I think we did a lot
of crappie fishing.
You know it was like I have adid a lot of crappie fishing.
You know it was like.
I have a lot of memories ofcrappie fishing with dad and
sometimes it was off the banks.
You know, I remember one timeit was middle of winter and it
(05:35):
was freezing cold and we wentout what they call behind the
sail barn on Lake Conway, on oneof those creeks I don't
remember the creek names.
Anyway, we had to break ice to.
You know, jig fish for crappieDad over here, he's really
intense Got to be really quiet,got to watch what you're doing
Don't ever look away from yourbobber for half a second and
(05:59):
that particular day it was onand we caught our limit pretty
quickly.
And I remember, you know,sitting in the truck and trying
to get the heater warm so wecould, you know, like, melt the
icicles off our fingers.
There's nothing better thancrappie fishing, I don't think.
TJ (06:12):
Yeah, I think fishing in general, just as long as you're
catching stuff.
We never had a bunch of crappiein the live well, but we did
have some good times with likebluegill.
I remember one particular storywhen we got into the hybrid and
caught our limit really quicklike that.
So those are always good times,I think.
It's funny because, like Iremember, you know we'd be
crappie fishing and I'd pull upa little you know largemouth,
(06:35):
yeah, and I'd be all excited,I'm like oh, it's a large bass
and dad's like throw that back,I don't want that that's
interesting, because I've talkedto more and more guys these
days that like to eat bass.
Yeah.
Danny (06:48):
I like it.
Small bass, like catch them outof a pond great.
Daniel (06:51):
We just catch them or release them.
We never ate them.
TJ (06:53):
Yeah we never did either, but I've got several guys that
I'm close to now that like swearthat white bass is as good as
crappie if you cut it uprightyeah.
Danny (07:02):
Yeah, I've got a friend that his uh pond he had a
private pond that got justoverpopulated with bass and so
me and Lincoln would go outthere and just like he was, like
get rid of them, man.
And so we would catch thoselike three quarter pound, you
know, to a pound, you know largemouth and we you know that's.
That's pretty good stuff forsure
Daniel (07:21):
You said your dad was real serious about the fishing
and then you know TJ's dad wasreal serious about the hunting.
Do y'all find that when y'allgo with your kids, have you
hunted or fished much with yourkiddos?
Danny (07:31):
So I've done, not a lot, but I've done some of both.
Daniel (07:35):
Are you real serious with it or do you just remember
that not really need to beserious?
So it's an evolving thing, Iagree, I think there were a lot
of times that I probably turnedhim off to things because I was
a little too serious, a littletoo intense, a little too
uptight, and so, as time hasgone on, life got real busy.
(07:59):
I didn't have the time to dothose things that I wanted to do
.
He came along, I wanted him toexperience them, but I also
really wanted to do them.
So I was there for me to fishand I think the big shift was
when I realized, probably withthe help of my wife, that I
should just be there to help himfish and be there to help him
hunt, and with that mind shiftit's gotten a lot nicer.
(08:20):
It's a lot easier to do.
You have much fonder memories probably I mean, we all
have fond memories of, you know, the strict hunting or fishing.
Danny (08:26):
But yeah, one of the favorite pictures I have
somewhere on my camera roll, myphone is uh lincoln snagged this
large mouth out of the sameguy's uh pond this last year and
it was a, it was a monster, Imean, you know, out of a pond it
was a monster and just the.
You know, like he, he couldn'tcontain his face, couldn't
contain it like it was awesome.
(08:47):
Yeah, there's not much in thenon-natural world that provides
that same level of excitementand wonder in a kid.
TJ (08:56):
Yeah, that's weird, isn't it like?
Because I've done a lot ofthings you know outside of the
outdoors and none of them havebrought me pleasure.
Like one time, nathan and Iwent turkey hunting and we got a
double that day.
Danny (09:06):
Like, we each killed a gobbler.
TJ (09:07):
Yeah, and man, you know, I've never been more excited, I
don't think.
Daniel (09:11):
You think we like the outdoors so much cause we're,
like we kind of grew up in ruralareas?
I would think so.
Danny (09:17):
Yeah, maybe I think some of us have more of a natural
bent than others, maybe.
But anything that you develop alove for early in life, I think
, is probably more likely tostick with you or even come back
around later, like I thinkthat's kind of what happened for
me.
I didn't care as much for awhile, and then the older I got,
the more I was drawn to itagain.
Daniel (09:37):
Yeah, we're trying to go simple now.
Yeah, get away from the busylife.
TJ (09:41):
That's right, yeah, and I don't think Dad being hard on me
about the way I walked in thewoods or Grandpa being like
don't make noise in the bottomof the boat, or any of that
really distracted me from it asan adult.
I look back on those days withfond memories it was fond yeah.
Danny (09:54):
Me too.
TJ (09:54):
I'm with Danny.
I have a hard time not beingthat way today, because I think
there's a side of us that justwants to be successful, whether
it's, you know, shooting deersquirrel or, yeah, you know,
catching crappie.
I just want to have a good,successful time, and we get
wrapped up in that so muchsometimes that we just forget
that.
Daniel (10:10):
You know to spend time with the ones we love and yeah,
we don't always have to havesomething to show for it when we
go hunting, you know, yeah,going squirrel hunting, like
it's nice just to walk out inthe woods, you know the best
times that I've had fishing withmy son are the times when I put
my fishing pole down.
Danny (10:25):
Yeah and just was with him.
Daniel (10:27):
Hung out yeah.
TJ (10:27):
That might be some really good life advice.
Put the fishing pole down.
Yeah, there you go, there yougo Tag that you got any other
cool stories like that.
Danny (10:37):
Here's one that's fun.
So you know, with crappiefishing structure, like crappie
love structure under the waterto to congregate around their
schooling fish, and so we we'dcall it a honey hole.
You know, we'd go, we'd have,we'd we'd fish the entire
shoreline of beaver fort, youknow, trying to find, trying to
(10:57):
find this spot.
So we would have these spotsthat we go to and as a crappie
fisherman you kind of guardthose, yeah.
And so at one point dad waslike we're gonna go put some
tops under the water, we'regonna create some structure and
a lot of people will usechristmas trees or pvc pipe or
whatever.
But he was like, no, we're gonnabring a hacksaw and a couple
center blocks, which the statuteof limitations surely will
(11:20):
cover you know me on thisrecurring theme here.
TJ (11:23):
I think we said that last podcast.
I'm going to be careful.
Danny (11:26):
Yeah, it was like in that little John boat we put some
center blocks and some rope anda hacksaw and we went into this
cove and he was like all right,get out and cut that tree down
over there.
And like when I was a kid I hada sense for either I was just
super fearful or I had a senseone or the other and uh, about
snakes.
And he pulled up and the noseof the boat, kind of you know,
(11:47):
hit the shore.
He said get out and get thatone.
And I was like I don't, I wasstanding on the end of the boat
going I don't know, dad, itlooks snaky, maybe we should try
somewhere else.
And he was like just get out ofthe boat and cut it down.
And I'm like I don't know and Ijust couldn't bring myself to
do it.
And about that time I sensedmovement and like a foot from
the boat was just thisLouisville Slugger size water
(12:11):
mox and it all curled up and heshot off and went, like you know
, right beside the boat and Isat back down and I was like
nope, and so he was like allright, I guess we'll just I
don't think we ever did go andfind a top.
That day, I think, we abortedthe mission at that point.
TJ (12:27):
That's amazing.
So we talked last episode abouta time where I camped on top of
Fork Mountain and it was likeit was blowing at hurricane
forces, and so we were sayingthen that you know, some of
(12:48):
those times like that whenyou're scared or when you're
tough, like when you're freezing, in that ice fishing scenario
where you guys were that thosemake some of the best memories
for some reason.
Whatever it is about a toughtime in the outdoors just makes
them really good.
Daniel (12:52):
You'll remember it.
TJ (12:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've definitely beenscared like that by a snake in
the outdoors before.
Danny (12:54):
Yeah, oh multiple times we had.
So we had a small pond in thewoods back behind our house and
I used to go out there.
It was real small but I couldgo out there and catch brim and
every now and then you pull alargemouth.
And so I was out there fishingone summer and I was probably
like 12 or 13 or something likethat and never, never liked
wading through the briars andthe tall grass to get there, but
(13:17):
you know, it was like the way Icould go fishing.
So I got back there andstanding on the pond bank
fishing and just like in theboat, I just like had a sense
and I looked down and same thing, man, I promise you, there's
this huge water mox and like twofeet from me, curled up, and
all I could see was that bigwhite mouth open and I threw my
(13:40):
fishing pole up in the air and Ithink it was like one of those
Fred Flintstones, like my feetstarted moving long before.
You know, I started goinganywhere, definitely, but I ran
home and I never saw thatfishing pole again.
TJ (13:52):
I was like that's it.
Danny (13:53):
I don't think I went back down there till that fall when
everything had kind of, you know, the grass had died and all
that kind of stuff yeah, well,by some, by then, somebody else
picked up the fish, yeah yeah,probably.
Daniel (14:02):
We had a pond like that that had bullfrogs everywhere,
and that place grew some hugewater moccasins.
I mean, as a kid, I think theywere, like you know, four or six
inches around.
They were huge
Danny (14:13):
yeah, yeah.
Daniel (14:13):
But I don't know if they're really that big, but
they sure seemed that way.
TJ (14:16):
Every snake is big.
Yeah To me.
Danny (14:25):
Yeah, I have stories for days about outdoor things.
They would just have to come tome over time, but I think
they're probably some of myfavorite stories.
Daniel (14:29):
So we've kind of talked about outdoors.
What do you do for a living?
How did you get started in that?
Danny (14:35):
We help our clients envision and create spaces.
This is our goal, anyway is tohelp our clients envision and
create spaces that fostergathering and community.
Way is to help our clientsenvision and create spaces that
foster gathering and community,because we believe that the
relationships are the mostimportant thing and we want to
help people build, you know,beautiful spaces, that kind of
(14:56):
foster that you know the kind ofplaces where you go and you
don't want to leave.
You just want to sit and have aconversation until you know you
run out of time or daylight orenergy or whatever, and so for
me that means, uh, focus onoutdoor living spaces, um, you
know, bringing bringing thenatural world into the backyard
(15:16):
as much as possible, but alsoconsulting with people to make
sure that, uh, the space is,like, well thought out and
designed before you take offdown the road to do what you
want to do.
You know, because nobody wantsto backtrack and have to undo
what they've already done.
TJ (15:31):
Yeah, so you guys do things like consulting, contracting,
the whole works with spaces,like that?
Danny (15:36):
I guess yeah we do indoor and outdoor spaces.
TJ (15:39):
Okay.
Danny (15:40):
And as we grow.
We've only been in thisbusiness for a year and a half.
So, projects are getting justincrementally bigger.
TJ (15:46):
Yeah, I've seen some really cool projects that you've done
outdoors already, so I thinkthose are cool.
Thank you.
People have to look you up forDreams and Visions in Central
Arkansas and check that out.
Yeah, for sure.
So what led you to that, youthink?
Danny (15:59):
Well, somewhere around 15 plus years ago, I started a
business and it was a lawnlandscape business, primarily
with like maintaining existinglawns and landscapes mowing and
all that kind of stuff.
Daniel (16:12):
So you went from your lawn care business before and
you used a lot of chemicals andstuff for that lawn care
business and then now you'rekind of going more toward native
species, more natural.
Tell us more kind of like howyou got on that path.
Danny (16:25):
Yeah.
So when I did lawn care well,chemical lawn care I didn't care
about it, it was just a thingto do.
It was more the relationalaspect that I enjoyed, uh, and
helping people solve problems,things like that.
And then, as I kind of exitedthat and started my own
(16:45):
landscape company, I wasn'treally doing chemical lawn care
but we would use chemicals tomake things convenient.
And then on our property we hadlike tons of gravel driveway,
like a ridiculous amount ofweeding didn't do, and so I
would glyphosate, I would sprayRoundup around, you know, on the
driveway or do like a soilsterilant on the driveway, you
(17:05):
know, just kill everything, killthe soil.
And because it was convenient,man, you know and I didn't
really I didn't because I'd, youknow, taken EPA tests and all
this different stuff I thoughtthat yeah, no, this stuff, like
you use it according to labeland like it's good, it's safe,
it's fine, and there were a lotof things over time.
(17:26):
My wife was a huge voice inthis, this huge researcher, and
so over time I just realizedlike, yeah, yeah, they're
probably not as good as Lookingout for our best interest.
Yeah, yeah, probably not.
Yeah, exactly.
So there's like the sprayingand what it does to the soil.
There's all these other effectsthat it has Like, because, if
you get, I mean we had, likewhen I worked for that company,
(17:49):
we had like a client base oflike 3,500 people and we were
one of several businesses.
So you drive around town andthese whole entire neighborhoods
are nothing but like manicuredbermudas, zoysia, whatever.
And I'll tell you one of my oneof the most delightful things
about being a kid where I grewup was catching fireflies and I
was just like at one point,started realizing like where are
(18:11):
all the fireflies?
I don't see those anymore.
And uh, and started, I don'tknow, man, I just started slowly
becoming aware of like thegreater impact, um, that this
culture and you know the waythat we were doing things was
was impacting, like our insectsand bees and all these like
they're, you know, crucialbecause what feeds on them, you
(18:33):
know, like birds and bats andall kinds of stuff.
It's like it's a system.
All the pieces have to be inplace for it to be healthy,
right?
So, yeah, I think that was a areally, really slow like coming
around Like my my wife is a hugepart of it.
I probably would have neverbeen smart enough to figure it
out on my own, but throughthrough her researching and
(18:57):
presenting information to me andeverything, I started realizing
well, that's not the way I wantto go.
And then there's some podcastsor some documentaries
specifically that we watched,that were and we've talked about
this uh, you know, a little bigfarm, uh, back to Eden, uh and
like.
And then other voices like JoelSalatin, and I always liked the
(19:17):
idea of growing my own food,but I don't like annual gardens,
I don't like weeding, I like Ialways thought they were too
much work.
Daniel (19:23):
Yeah,
way too much work
TJ (19:24):
I agree, I don't get joy out of that.
Danny (19:26):
Yeah, and like I remember working in people's yards and
they'd have a, they'd have plumtrees or they'd have whatever,
and just and just like full offruit.
I'm like you don't buy thatmuch fruit at the grocery store,
you're going to spend a milliondollars, you know.
And so I was like, well, maybelike fruit trees would be pretty
cool, you know.
And so really it started withlike a small garden at our old
house, probably 15 years ago.
(19:47):
My wife started like she grew alittle, planted some asparagus,
some strawberries, just somesmall raised bed kind of stuff.
Daniel (19:54):
Yeah.
Danny (19:57):
And I thought that was super cool, just being able to
go out there and snap asparagusoff and eat it.
Daniel (20:00):
Yeah, I know what's on it.
Danny (20:01):
Yeah, exactly
Daniel (20:02):
that's what's really good.
Danny (20:03):
Yeah, and at that point I was still trying to get her to
treat stuff.
But it's just a slowprogression, man, you know.
TJ (20:11):
Yeah, so fast forward to now and you've got a yard and some
recently acquired acreage.
Danny (20:16):
Yeah.
TJ (20:17):
So what's going on with that ?
Danny (20:24):
Well, a few years ago we started.
It was kind of coming out ofthat crucible we spoke of and
kind of in the healing process,we were walking around our
existing property and looking atthe empty property next to us
that we'd wanted for a long timeand we had all these ambitions
that we kind of had to table forseveral years.
Well, for here's the thing fora long time I tabled it because
I was so overwhelmed with mybusiness that I couldn't look at
anything else it kept me out ofthe outdoors too, even though I
(20:46):
worked outdoors, but it kept meout of, you know, the woods,
from hunting, fishing, all thatstuff.
And then when we went throughwhat we went through, there was
like, and I was in bad physicalshape For several years I was
getting not more than four orfive hours sleep a night, but I
had been overweight most of mylife.
(21:08):
I'd lost a lot of weight in my20s and when I started a
business stress and whateverelse I started gaining weight
again and I'd had this injurythat I I didn't at the time,
like I had no idea like Iliterally like shattered my
ankle and I was afraid to takeoff work to go to the doctor,
cause I was like I don't want tolose my job, I don't want to.
(21:29):
You know how am I going toafford it?
Whatever?
I'll, just so I would just laceit up, wrap it as tight as I
could and kind of grit my teethuntil it finally got kind of
okay.
And then, a year or so later,like I remember the first time,
like my back went out like out,out, like you know, lower L4, 5
vertebra, like to the pointwhere I literally just dropped
to the ground, couldn't stand,and for about 15 years I had
(21:54):
chronic back pain and it waslike you know all the things.
It was like therapy andchiropractic and the you know
steroid epidurals in the back.
I had a discectomy where theyremoved some you know disc
material and stuff.
And it wasn't until I went to adoctor for it's a condition
called hammer toe, where yourlike tendons are drawn up in
your toes, and my wife said yougot to go get that figured out.
(22:17):
You're not going to be able towalk by the time you're 50.
And so I did and he came backin and he was like well, you
definitely, you know, needsomething done with that.
But what the what's up withthis shattered ankle?
I was like what are you talkingabout, doc?
He said, when did that happen?
And as soon as he asked me, Iremembered and I was like I did
the math I was probably 12 or 13years ago.
(22:39):
And he's like you've beenwalking around, and so we put
two and two together.
So, anyway, like that's a bigpart of my story too, though,
because when you deal withchronic pain, anybody that's
dealt with it for a long timelike it has all kinds of other
effects in your life, mental andspiritual, and you know it's,
and so, um, so I say all that tosay is we'd been through this
(23:03):
four year period or so wherewe've just been getting by and
everything kind of falling intodisrepair and our ambitions of
having garden spaces andeverything else they'd all gone
to crap and it was all overgrown.
We're just overwhelmed anddeflated and and walking around
thinking, well, if we only hadthis equipment or this whatever,
(23:25):
if, if, if only we had this andwe could do this, if we only
had this land, that we could dothis.
And my wife had some wisdom andinsight and reminded me that
when Moses asked God, you knowwhat do you got to work with,
and it was just, you know, thestaff, and that was what they
(23:46):
worked with.
And so I got to work, doingwhat I could, you know, and
sometimes it was like 20 or 30minutes at a time and my back
was just played out and I had togo inside.
But we started working on thisproperty and we discovered that
this pile of wood chips that afriend had dropped off, that had
a tree company a few yearsbefore, had turned to just like
rich black dirt.
(24:07):
And that got us thinking, youknow.
And then we watched the back toEden film and they talk a lot
about sheet mulching.
And there's this guy in the inthe California you know, high,
high desert North California youget like nine inches of rain a
year and every farm around himis irrigated and it's just dust
bowls.
And here he's got this.
(24:27):
I don't know, I can't rememberhow many acres it is.
Um, that's essentially anorchard, but then under all the
trees he's got all kinds ofdiversity of everything that you
can imagine and he's got.
But this is the sheet mulchingthing.
He's always talking about cover, ground cover, and so he
(24:47):
manages to do this thing andhave the most like lush
vegetation and produce that youcan imagine, where you snap it
and water just squirts out andno irrigation, in nine inches of
rainfall a year.
TJ (24:59):
Wow.
Danny (25:00):
And so that was.
That was like a really bigthing for me.
I latched onto that, and so Iended up reaching out to a local
well, several local treecompanies and I found one that
would bring out their wood chips, and so at this point we've
probably taken five or 600 yardsof wood chips over the last
three years onto our propertyand for a lot of that time they
were just in piles and my wifewas like people are going to
(25:21):
hate us, you know, but we had avision and we just started
working towards it.
So you know we have all of these.
You know I had talked to you,you know, privately, earlier
about like just how manyambitions and how many interests
I have and how I'm having tolike really pull back and figure
(25:43):
out how to start taking onebite at a time and really
getting smart about like well,which of these ambitions are
going to be foundational, thatthe others can be built upon,
and trying to focus in on that.
Here's the thing is I know alittle bit of stuff about a ton
of these different things andyou hear words like centropic
food forest, like permaculture,like tree guilds and, I think,
(26:05):
what we see our property as nowis a ground zero.
to just try all these things out, we really kind of started by
planting fruit trees, fruitingshrubs.
You know we've got a decentamount of diversity already and
I don't even feel like we'vegotten started.
We've got multiple varieties ofplums, apples, pears, figs,
(26:28):
cherries, so on and so forth.
You know we've got elderberries, blueberries, blackberries,
raspberries.
That's pretty cool, but stillwhen you look around the
property it's like nothing youknow we have like how many acres
is it on?
So we have an acre and a halfthat we've been on and then we
were able to close on that landabout a month ago.
(26:49):
Next to us Now we have a threeacre property.
Daniel (26:51):
So you have all that on an acre now, though.
So that makes it viable for alot of people.
Danny (26:57):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely and honestly.
One of the lessons that I'velearned has come out of the last
couple of years.
I was super defeated the firstyear.
I lost like six blueberryplants and four fig trees and a
bunch of other stuff, and I wassuper defeated and I ran into
this guy and he is in likeagroforestry where they're
(27:18):
applying a lot of these sameprinciples to like growing
animals, meat.
You know, I was just kind ofexplaining to him like man, you
just screwed everything up andset us back a whole year, and
and so this guy was like man,was there anything you learned,
do you think you know?
When I thought about it, I waslike, yeah, actually, like figs
need some some wind cover, some,something like you know, cause
(27:40):
I had two fig trees that werejust like exploded and I kind of
looked at the.
I observed, you know, thosewere out in the middle of the
field, these were on the youknow the uh west side of my shop
and had that kind of wind breakand a little bit of afternoon
shade, and so I was like, okay,well, those are happy there and
not there.
So I learned something there.
And then I learned that, likeyou know, as I'd been kind of
(28:03):
shotgun approach, putting stuffall over the property, I think.
In my mind I was like if I juststart putting things everywhere
, eventually it'll just populateand fill in.
And it was like no, I'm justputting things out on their own
and they're struggling and theyneed, they need cover, they need
support plants, they need youknow, and so.
So that was that was big man.
He helped me because he waslike sounds like you had a
(28:25):
really good year, like youlearned some lessons that you
won't repeat, you know, or someyou know.
So anyway, but like the property, it's like we kind of started
with the idea of doing thesetree guilds.
What's a tree guild?
Here's the idea of a tree guildyou may have like a fruit tree
and like what you might calllike an emergent, like a nut
tree or something like that, andthen you're going to have like
(28:47):
designated kind of bed spacearound them and then out from
there you're going to plant allkinds of other plants.
You're going to plant some likefruiting shrubs.
You're going to plant, you know, nitrogen fixing plants, some
other like really fast growingtrees that can be used to hard
prune every year to build thesoil.
You know, you're like puttingcarbon on the ground so you can
(29:09):
build soil, Okay, and so you'rereally trying to.
You've got these two main trees, like a nut tree and a fruit
tree, let's say, and then you'regoing to surround them with
community that is going to givethem what they need and make
them stronger and makeeverything grow better and
stronger and faster.
And so yeah, so that's kind ofthe idea and I was like that
(29:29):
that clicks.
You know, that makes sense.
That's the way it is withpeople too, and so that was like
one idea and we had all theseideas from all these different
places right.
It was like well, sheetmulching.
Definitely want to incorporatethat because, as a landscaper,
part of my previous love forglyphosate had to do with my
hatred for Bermuda and anybodyin Arkansas that tries to do
(29:52):
some gardening.
They're going to hate Bermuda.
It's just a nightmare to deal a.
They're going to hate Bermuda.
You know it's just a nightmareto deal with.
Uh, especially in this climate.
Quick question so sheet mulchingyou're talking about just
laying down, like those woodchips.
So if you get cardboard or like, I guess if you want to spend a
ton of money, you could do, youknow, like Ram board or
something like that, butsomething that's like a
(30:13):
cardboard that doesn't have likesheen on it or like a lot of
printing on it or anything likethat just natural cardboard with
plenty of overlap and then 12to 18 inches of not mulch, like
you would go and buy finishedmulch but wood chips from like
fresh trees, because you'regoing to have the carbon that
you need but you're also goingto have all the nitrogen and
(30:34):
everything that you need andthat's going to allow it to
break down like it needs to.
But sheet mulching takes time.
So we're like we had thisexperience with the big pile of
mulch that we found and we'relike, oh, I'll just put mulch
down in a year later I'll havedirt and it's like well, a big
mistake, you know it's like yeahyeah, so we have like several
thousand square feet that likewe think we're going to be able
(30:55):
to plant in next year, and thenthe next year comes and it's
like, nope, not quite so, youknow, like things like that that
we're learning.
But in the end we found, likecentropic food forestry and I'm
going to try my very best like,please, lord, nobody criticize
me for this Cause I don't evenfully understand it.
I don't know all the properterminology.
You, daniel, and I beat on thisone, yeah go ahead, but it's
(31:15):
very interesting to me, yeah,and so you know you'll have all
these different like when you'replanning it out.
You'll have like.
From what I understand, you'relooking more at like strata than
you are like.
Do they have the rightrelationship in terms of like?
Are they?
Uh, you know what specificroles they play and you're
looking to like?
(31:36):
You know your upper canopy.
You only want to have like in agiven space.
You only have like 10 to 20% ofthat given space, end up as
like upper canopy, okay, andthen you're going to have a
larger percentage of it.
That's going to be like subcanopy, and then so on and so
forth, right.
And so the idea is to plan thisout very well and very
strategically to where you'replanting everything you're going
(31:59):
to plant.
You're going to go ahead andplant all of the emergent like
upper story trees.
You're going to plant yoursmaller fruit trees and you're
going to be planting trees like,for example, one that we have
here in Arkansas that peoplethink of as invasive would be
like the mimosa tree, okay, butwhat that does in that setting
(32:22):
is it grows really quickly andit produces a lot of carbon that
you can hard prune them and putthat carbon back in it because
you're trying to build the soiltoo.
Okay, everything that you'redoing when you're going through
and you're pruning and you'reworking this stuff, you're
putting it all back on the soil.
You're just trying to buildsoil, um and so, like soil is
life right.
(32:42):
Even even in the bible it talksabout like it likens our heart,
the condition of our heart, tocondition of soil.
Like healthy soil is going togrow healthy things.
A healthy heart is going togrow healthy things and produce
good fruit.
Right, right, I talk about thatall day too.
So you're, you're planning thisout and you're planting like a
lot of diversity really closetogether at the same time at the
(33:05):
same time at the same time, andso you've got these.
I've like proof of concept.
I've only seen on YouTubevideos and everything you know
like there's a lot of planningthat's going into this and like
one of my objectives right nowis I'm, I'm, I'm getting ready
to build some what they call airpruning beds so that I can
start tons of trees foressentially free, like almost
(33:28):
nothing, because it's like man,if you're going to go out and
buy all this stuff, like I don'thave that, I don't have those
resources you know most of usdon't yeah Right, so anyway.
I don't have that, I don't havethose resources, most of us
don't yeah, right.
So, anyway, you do this in sucha way that, just like with the
tree guild, but in a littledifferent way, everybody's
helping everybody, right.
And so as these trees arecoming up, they're shading these
(33:52):
other trees that need thatshade and protection, and as
that's happening, you've gotthese nitrogen fixers and you've
got all these things going onsimultaneously, and so you'll
see these guys that are growingtrees that would normally
they'll get to this size in fouryears.
That would normally take like10 to 15, you know, uh, and.
And so you're just creatingthese ideal conditions where you
(34:15):
have, um, just know, perfect,you know, coming together of
things to kind of support oneanother.
TJ (34:25):
Yeah, and you've done it all naturally, without the use of
chemicals and things like wewere talking about earlier.
Danny (34:29):
Yes, and that's been, that's been really frustrating
as, as we've gotten started,because Bermuda has really taken
over a lot of things, but aswe've gone along, what we're
doing now is like we're kind ofretroactively going back into
those places where we've got.
Like, for example, we've gotprobably a dozen blackberry
plants on a row that are cominginto their third year.
(34:51):
I'm just going to have tomanually get down there and weed
it and get all that out.
And then I'm going to have tomanually get down there and weed
it and get all that out.
And then I'm going to have tobe really careful about how we
apply cardboard around each ofthose plants, give it a good
mulch base and make sure thatBermuda can't, you know,
proliferate again.
But where we're planning newthings going forward, we're just
(35:11):
going to make sure that Bermudais not an issue at all.
And so for us, here's the thingsure that Bermuda is not an
issue at all.
And so for us, here's the thingyou can deal with Bermuda by
excavating everything down to acertain depth, or you can
eradicate it by repeatedexcavations.
You know chemical applications,or you can try to cover it up.
(35:32):
But that's like you know, if he, depending on how you go about
it.
Um, and so what we have?
What I've realized is that, uh,it's going to take a lot of
planning and prep and waiting.
TJ (35:44):
Yeah.
Danny (35:44):
So we, where we put down a new sheet mulch area, we don't
, we don't anticipate plantinganything, anything there for
about three years, wow.
And so it's a it's, it's.
It's like that's the trade-off.
If you want to do it and youwant to do it naturally, and you
already have like establishedthings that are like in that
(36:06):
property, we just we just bought, we've got that kind of
invasive Chinese honeysuckle outthere like crazy.
We've got privet, we've got,we've got some really nasty
stuff that we don't want outthere, and so, but I'm trying to
see, I'm trying to see thingsdifferently and honestly, some
of that stuff, especially thehoneysuckle, as far as, as far
as what I know now, we may haveto excavate that or do something
(36:31):
.
You know something that we don'treally want to do, to get
control of it.
But, for example, like theprivet, you know, I was like
gosh dang, I was so just likehating it.
And then I like, when I startedclearing this, this, uh, like
back fence line, I realized likegood grief, that's a lot of
carbon material, what a blessing, right.
And so it's like I realizedlike good grief that's a lot of
(36:52):
carbon material.
What a blessing, right.
And so it's like, okay, well, ifI pollard these trees, then I
can, I can.
It does a few things.
One if the big ones, if I, if Ipollard them, like so.
I think.
I'm using the right term.
Thanks for calling me out.
I'm just kidding.
So like say, say I cut themlike three feet above the ground
(37:15):
and just leave the stump threefoot off the ground.
They're going to.
They're going to start shootingup new growth.
Well, one thing that's going todo is it's going to be, it's
going to be growing me morecarbon material right that I can
use the following fall
TJ (37:26):
Cause you're taking the nutrients that it's taken from
the ground or release them backin by either mulching, burning
or whatever you're doing.
Yeah, that's right.
Danny (37:33):
Yeah, that's right.
And uh, and the other thingthat I think I don't know, but I
think that it's going to dobecause of the, the way that the
roots are all interconnected.
I kind of feel like if I hardprune and pollard this whole
line of these things, then allthe little ones that are trying
to grow up like underneath them,I think the energy is going to
kind of go to where they'retrying to heal and and keep
(37:55):
things going.
I don't know, we're going tofind out like a lot of this is
being really patient and tryingthings and observing nature and
seeing what happens.
TJ (38:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's what I'm figuring out with.
Our land, too, is like you knowthere's a lot of things that we
want to get rid of up there thatare invasive, um, but I'm with
you.
I don't want to use thechemicals as much as possible,
like there's.
There's some things where youjust kind of have to bite the
bullet and do it, whether youwant to or not.
But you know, if you can avoidit, I think it's best.
But, yeah, learning thosedifferent things that you can do
(38:25):
naturally to take care of thatspace is, I think, what we're
all about.
Yeah, sure, the more ways wecan explore to do that better,
right?
Daniel (38:31):
yeah, even if it takes longer, like you're saying, yes,
and see we've talked about thisa little bit but I've kind of
had a vision of like trying toget like neighborhoods to do the
food for us and stuff.
But how would you ever get overthe, the bermuda lawns and the
zoysia lawns and like people?
I mean people move on averageseven year, every seven years.
So how would you ever get acommunity to like bond together
(38:55):
and get like fruit trees goingand things like that?
You couldn't do a communitygarden, I think like you know,
two people would be doing it.
Everybody else would be tryingto eat the fruit.
But you know.
I just don't know if that visionis even possible with how.
You know how slow it is.
Danny (39:08):
Well, I think it's worth pursuing.
Slow it is.
Well, I think it's worthpursuing.
And I think one tiny way thatI've started to kind of edge
that way is like if you take thetypical American house, like
you've got, you've got a yardand you've usually got some
landscape around the front ofthe house and maybe a little bit
around the back, and that'sjust what we're used to seeing,
it's what we're used to dealingwith.
(39:29):
And so, like I've started,whenever I do a landscape design
now, um, I'll, you know, I'llfill people out and talk to them
and ask them, kind of, whatthey're interested in, but like
I like to use as many nativespecies of shrubs and grasses
and trees as I possibly can, andeven if they continue to treat
(39:49):
their lawn, then their landscapeis going to be full of, you
know, native plants at least,and so that's like a step in the
right direction and I thinkthere's a lot of steps in the
right direction that we can takewithout it having to be like a.
You know, if you can create alandscape that looks just as
beautiful or more beautiful thanyour typical landscape, full of
(40:10):
, you know, stuff, that justornamental stuff that comes from
wherever, that doesn't reallyadd any value or benefit to
Takes a ton of water andchemicals.
Exactly yeah.
Daniel (40:20):
See, that's kind of my vision, like if you could get
away from all the extra wateringand all that, like it would be
awesome.
Danny (40:26):
Yeah, I agree.
Daniel (40:27):
And then you get the butterflies back in the
neighborhoods and the lightningbugs, like you were talking
about Like right now you go outthere, it's pretty sterile out
there.
Everything's sprayed.
Everybody's house is sprayed,you know.
Danny (40:38):
Yeah, you know you mentioned like the, just like
not having to use water.
I think that's what's soawesome about like if, like the
vision that I have 10, 15 yearsdown the road for our property
other than, like you know,greenhouse stuff or like starts
and stuff like that I don't planon using any water on anything
(40:59):
and I don't even think I canimagine like it's going to be so
insanely productive, you know,that piece of property in 10 to
15 years and it's not going torequire any water or any
chemicals, and I think that'spretty cool, yeah,
self-sustaining, and you know,food for you guys as a family
too, that's you know usuallyvery expensive, yeah, yeah.
(41:23):
Well, you know, like we havepretty full lives.
I have a business, my wifeworks full time from home and we
homeschool our kids becausewe're crazy people.
My wife works full time fromhome and we homeschool our kids
because we're crazy people.
Not only do we not all havejust all the time in the world
to do what we want to do on theland, but also we don't have all
the time in the world toresearch things, and so I'm
trying to keep my eyes wide open, to build community that is,
(41:45):
that cares about the same thingsthat we do and nobody's off
limits.
Like some people live in anapartment and they would love to
have some space to do somegardening, but they can't come
be a part of what we're doing.
You know, we just want to buildcommunities so we can learn more
, we can grow more, and we wouldreally like this property.
(42:06):
Like we have a lot of a lot oflike ideas, ideas and ambitions
for the property, but but reallywe do want it to be just.
We want to have people over allthe time and we want it to be
like a central hub for peoplethat are exploring all these
things that we're exploringright, we want to learn from.
We want to teach, um, we wantto, we like, we want to have so
(42:27):
much diversity that we caneventually maybe be like the,
the play that like a seed bankof like all these things that
are like maybe harder to find,that are like we're losing
things, you know, and so I don'tknow what all that looks like
and I don't know how we'll getthere, but that little three
(42:48):
acres right there, I think, isgoing to be a really powerful
tool for connecting people, youknow, and that's a big part of
it for us too.
Daniel (42:58):
Yeah, what is that documentary or that TV show you
showed me the other day aboutthe food forest that guy planted
, like a long time ago?
TJ (43:07):
That was the one in.
Hershey Pennsylvania, that Dannyactually showed us.
He sent that one to me.
Daniel (43:10):
Yeah, that's super cool.
Yeah, super cool.
TJ (43:13):
Yeah, was that John Hershey that did that in Hershey
Pennsylvania?
Danny (43:17):
Something like that.
Yeah, my memory's not that good.
TJ (43:19):
We'll try to include a link in the podcast.
Danny (43:22):
Super cool though it was super cool, yeah, yeah really
cool, and the one thing that Ilearned from that was like, like
you know, you can take a treethat maybe is a shorter-lived
tree and graft it onto rootstockthat is longer-lived rootstock.
And like I was like, oh wow,that's really cool.
You know you could do some coolstuff there too.
TJ (43:39):
Yeah, we got a guy coming up soon, Paul Foshee with his
pecan farm.
He's done a lot of that kind ofgrafting and stuff.
He's super knowledgeable aboutthat.
See, that's the one guy I needto meet, yeah.
So we're hoping to dive intothat kind of stuff with him a
little bit.
We're actually going to walkthrough his old orchard where
he's done a lot of that and lookat some of the trees he grafted
years and years ago.
So I think that's cool.
It'll be kind of the same thing, yeah.
(44:01):
But yeah, I think you know notonly the love for the outdoors,
but you know how do we eat morehealthy?
How do we take care of ourfamily?
What about our yard?
How can it be more aligned withhow it should be natural,
native species, the animalscoming around like they should
you know insects, lightning bugs, whether it's bees?
(44:33):
you know butterflies, all thatyou know.
That's what this whole thing isabout to us.
Danny (44:36):
I want all of it, man.
We just started bees this lastyear.
TJ (44:40):
Our friend Chris Baker got me.
We met with Dr Chris soon too.
Danny (44:43):
Yeah, got me set up on bees.
My one of one of my, one of mymillions of ambitions is to
build a bat box and get somebats on the property you know,
uh, to keep, you know, unwantedinsects down.
Daniel (44:56):
give some pressure on that stuff, yeah it reminds me
of that little big farm that wasso cool, so cool man, they had
the ducks going in there andeating the you know.
Danny (45:05):
Like that they had a problem with snails, and so
they're like turn the ducksloose in there.
You know it's like nature willdo it.
TJ (45:11):
Yeah, we can include that link too.
I think it was the Biggest.
Daniel (45:13):
Little.
TJ (45:13):
Farm is actually the title of that.
Oh, okay.
Daniel (45:16):
Yeah, that makes sense.
The other one is called weFound America's Lost Food Forest
.
Danny (45:20):
Okay, better send me that one.
TJ (45:22):
Yeah, it's good yeah, that's awesome.
So other people looking to getinto these same things that are
like minded to us you know, whatdo you think is like the
easiest way to get into eithernative landscaping or these food
forests, you know, just eatinghealthy, that kind of thing.
What do you think that thefirst step is?
(45:43):
What was your first step?
Maybe?
Danny (45:46):
uh, my first step was just copious amounts of YouTube
watching.
TJ (45:51):
Okay, if I'm honest, yeah.
Danny (45:52):
And then taking the first steps and going.
You know I don't have much towork with, but I'll just work
with what I can.
You got to get your butt outthere and do something.
Research first a little bit.
It's ridiculous what we haveavailable on YouTube and you can
just, you know, chase your ownrabbit trails, the things you're
interested in.
If you look for it, you'll findpeople that are doing these
(46:15):
things and you haveconversations and I learn new
stuff all the time and build newconnections all the time.
Just start somewhere, then Juststart and just do something.
Yeah, don't be scared.
And if you're in an apartmentor something, you don't have
space.
We've talked about, you know,doing stuff on windowsills.
Right, maybe there's somebodyout there that has the space but
is overwhelmed and you canpartner with somebody you know.
TJ (46:36):
Yeah, I mean, last year we did like wildflowers on our
flower bed you know and we sawtons of insects you know right
there at the front of the house.
You know, not everybody wantsinsects right there at the front
of their house, but to me itwas cool because we saw more
wildlife and you know thebecause we saw more wildlife and
, you know, the wife had all theflowers that she wanted, and so
it was a win-win for all of us.
Kids got to see the bugs andplay with all that stuff right,
(46:56):
so pretty awesome.
But yeah, that was just our wayof starting I think that sounds
good.
Daniel (47:01):
Yeah, I appreciate you being here yeah, I love the
stories um.
Danny (47:06):
I'm sure we'll have you back on here that'd be awesome,
especially when I would loveupdates on the food yeah, that's
what I was gonna we're going tohave to check in from time to
time.
TJ (47:13):
We may have to like have Danny create a site where we can
like follow the progress outthere on the farm, something
like that.
Danny (47:21):
That's another.
This is one of my othermissions is like track what I'm
doing and take, like you know,photos videos.
TJ (47:27):
Well, we look forward to talking with you again later and
checking in on the progress.
Today we are joined by our goodfriend of 15 years,
entrepreneur, family man,outdoorsman, Danny Williams.
Danny, welcome to the podcast.
Danny (00:58):
Man, I'm glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
TJ (01:00):
Glad to have you.
Danny (01:06):
So 15 years, you said maybe 20 years, probably for me,
and you 20 years because youmoved to conway, uh, whenever
that was, I think I would havebeen around 18.
TJ (01:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's about 20 years.
Danny (01:13):
I was thinking about that earlier today.
TJ (01:15):
Yeah, and daniel when did you come in probably?
Daniel (01:16):
about 15 years ago, when we were going to conway
nazarene.
Is that what?
TJ (01:21):
yeah, yeah, okay.
So I started going to churchtogether at that point in time.
Daniel (01:25):
We're in the same Bible study.
TJ (01:28):
Danny, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit
about yourself, your family,where you came from, maybe how
your journey in the outdoors gotstarted?
Danny (01:36):
Yeah, sure.
So I just turned 40 this year.
Daniel (01:41):
I'm about there.
Yeah, I'm there, trailing rightbehind me.
Danny (01:45):
I've been married for.
This may be 18 years.
Yeah, I know, right, and we'vegot a couple kids Piper and
Lincoln.
They're 12 and 10.
You know, I grew up CentralArkansas, right outside of
Conway it's kind of rural,especially back then Pickles Gap
area, and so we had a lot of,we had a lot of land around us.
(02:06):
We we didn't have a lot of land, but we were surrounded by it
woods, cow pasture, creeks.
You know that was my playground.
We never had cable, we didn't,you know, have other, a lot of
other ways to entertainourselves.
So I spent a lot of timeoutside and so I would just like
go and play in the Creek,sometimes all day, you know,
yeah, um, and so it was a coolerspot in the summer to go in the
(02:29):
Creek, and you know there weresome scary things, like you're a
little and you're coming acrosssnakes and all these different
kinds of wildlife.
But I think, um, you knowthat's pretty cool, cause when
you get older you're all used toit, you know about it, you're
comfortable with it.
Daniel (02:44):
Yeah, loses that magic a little bit.
Yeah, maybe a little bit.
Danny (02:49):
Yeah, not not totally, but yeah, but um, but yeah, that
was, was it?
Yeah?
Daniel (02:53):
so did your brother and sister.
Do they go in the woods at all?
TJ (02:58):
or before you or after you, I know y'all.
Danny (02:59):
Yeah, I don't think I don't think my sister's ever
been really drawn to it and youknow my meal on Papaw had a spot
for several years.
They had bought 20 acres.
that was kind of in the middleof National Forest in a place
called Nogo, right outside ofHector on the East Fork Illinois
(03:19):
Bayou, and so I know my brotherhas fond memories of that place
, as do I.
It was a pretty magical placein the bottom of the valley down
there, surrounded by nothing.
But other than that, you know,I don't think he's ever been
like super into spending time inthe outdoors too much.
TJ (03:33):
Yeah, so we spent a lot of time on the Illinois Bayou in
kayaks and canoes and stuff.
It was a really cool place.
Got some stories from.
There.
Yeah, so did your parents spendmuch time outdoors?
Danny (03:43):
My grandpa on my mom's side.
You know she grew up in Rogers,arkansas, up there in northwest
Arkansas, and she grew up on a40-acre farm and so you know we
always went up there as often aswe could when we were kids and
for me being on that farm wasjust one of the best things ever
(04:04):
, with grandpa having a free runof the farm.
You know he he had I don't knowhow many head of cattle, but we
would always go feed the cattleand I would always play around.
Look at all those tractors.
I remember the first timegetting on one of those I don't
even remember it was like one ofthose old where, like you know,
the front tires are all angled,angled in, or whatever, papa
johnny or one of those, oh mygoodness gracious, in the clutch
(04:24):
and the front tires come offand.
I'm about lost my mind atprobably six years old or
something like that.
But yeah, everything about allthe adventure that you could
find on that farm was was youknow, that was just for me, you
know what I mean.
So, yeah, I that was kinda thatwas kinda my upbringing was
those, uh, those were theinfluences at least that um
(04:46):
stuck with me and that wereimpactful to me were just all
the outdoor opportunities.
My dad at some point, like Ithink it was around the time
that I was getting old enough togo with him around four or five
, um, I think he had some guysat work that were big into
crappie fishing and so hestarted going with them and then
we got a little 14 foot, youknow, like 14 by 36 john boat
(05:10):
like a seven horse outboard, youknow, and uh, and so then we
were like rocking and rollingbecause we go to the backside of
beaver fork or we go out, likeconway, uh.
And so, yeah, we did, um, Ithink we, I think we did a lot
of crappie fishing.
You know it was like I have adid a lot of crappie fishing.
You know it was like.
I have a lot of memories ofcrappie fishing with dad and
sometimes it was off the banks.
You know, I remember one timeit was middle of winter and it
(05:35):
was freezing cold and we wentout what they call behind the
sail barn on Lake Conway, on oneof those creeks I don't
remember the creek names.
Anyway, we had to break ice to.
You know, jig fish for crappieDad over here, he's really
intense Got to be really quiet,got to watch what you're doing
Don't ever look away from yourbobber for half a second and
(05:59):
that particular day it was onand we caught our limit pretty
quickly.
And I remember, you know,sitting in the truck and trying
to get the heater warm so wecould, you know, like, melt the
icicles off our fingers.
There's nothing better thancrappie fishing, I don't think.
TJ (06:12):
Yeah, I think fishing in general, just as long as you're
catching stuff.
We never had a bunch of crappiein the live well, but we did
have some good times with likebluegill.
I remember one particular storywhen we got into the hybrid and
caught our limit really quicklike that.
So those are always good times,I think.
It's funny because, like Iremember, you know we'd be
crappie fishing and I'd pull upa little you know largemouth,
(06:35):
yeah, and I'd be all excited,I'm like oh, it's a large bass
and dad's like throw that back,I don't want that that's
interesting, because I've talkedto more and more guys these
days that like to eat bass.
Yeah.
Danny (06:48):
I like it.
Small bass, like catch them outof a pond great.
Daniel (06:51):
We just catch them or release them.
We never ate them.
TJ (06:53):
Yeah we never did either, but I've got several guys that
I'm close to now that like swearthat white bass is as good as
crappie if you cut it uprightyeah.
Danny (07:02):
Yeah, I've got a friend that his uh pond he had a
private pond that got justoverpopulated with bass and so
me and Lincoln would go outthere and just like he was, like
get rid of them, man.
And so we would catch thoselike three quarter pound, you
know, to a pound, you know largemouth and we you know that's.
That's pretty good stuff forsure
Daniel (07:21):
You said your dad was real serious about the fishing
and then you know TJ's dad wasreal serious about the hunting.
Do y'all find that when y'allgo with your kids, have you
hunted or fished much with yourkiddos?
Danny (07:31):
So I've done, not a lot, but I've done some of both.
Daniel (07:35):
Are you real serious with it or do you just remember
that not really need to beserious?
So it's an evolving thing, Iagree, I think there were a lot
of times that I probably turnedhim off to things because I was
a little too serious, a littletoo intense, a little too
uptight, and so, as time hasgone on, life got real busy.
(07:59):
I didn't have the time to dothose things that I wanted to do
.
He came along, I wanted him toexperience them, but I also
really wanted to do them.
So I was there for me to fishand I think the big shift was
when I realized, probably withthe help of my wife, that I
should just be there to help himfish and be there to help him
hunt, and with that mind shiftit's gotten a lot nicer.
(08:20):
It's a lot easier to do.
You have much fonder memories probably I mean, we all
have fond memories of, you know, the strict hunting or fishing.
Danny (08:26):
But yeah, one of the favorite pictures I have
somewhere on my camera roll, myphone is uh lincoln snagged this
large mouth out of the sameguy's uh pond this last year and
it was a, it was a monster, Imean, you know, out of a pond it
was a monster and just the.
You know, like he, he couldn'tcontain his face, couldn't
contain it like it was awesome.
(08:47):
Yeah, there's not much in thenon-natural world that provides
that same level of excitementand wonder in a kid.
TJ (08:56):
Yeah, that's weird, isn't it like?
Because I've done a lot ofthings you know outside of the
outdoors and none of them havebrought me pleasure.
Like one time, nathan and Iwent turkey hunting and we got a
double that day.
Danny (09:06):
Like, we each killed a gobbler.
TJ (09:07):
Yeah, and man, you know, I've never been more excited, I
don't think.
Daniel (09:11):
You think we like the outdoors so much cause we're,
like we kind of grew up in ruralareas?
I would think so.
Danny (09:17):
Yeah, maybe I think some of us have more of a natural
bent than others, maybe.
But anything that you develop alove for early in life, I think
, is probably more likely tostick with you or even come back
around later, like I thinkthat's kind of what happened for
me.
I didn't care as much for awhile, and then the older I got,
the more I was drawn to itagain.
Daniel (09:37):
Yeah, we're trying to go simple now.
Yeah, get away from the busylife.
TJ (09:41):
That's right, yeah, and I don't think Dad being hard on me
about the way I walked in thewoods or Grandpa being like
don't make noise in the bottomof the boat, or any of that
really distracted me from it asan adult.
I look back on those days withfond memories it was fond yeah.
Danny (09:54):
Me too.
TJ (09:54):
I'm with Danny.
I have a hard time not beingthat way today, because I think
there's a side of us that justwants to be successful, whether
it's, you know, shooting deersquirrel or, yeah, you know,
catching crappie.
I just want to have a good,successful time, and we get
wrapped up in that so muchsometimes that we just forget
that.
Daniel (10:10):
You know to spend time with the ones we love and yeah,
we don't always have to havesomething to show for it when we
go hunting, you know, yeah,going squirrel hunting, like
it's nice just to walk out inthe woods, you know the best
times that I've had fishing withmy son are the times when I put
my fishing pole down.
Danny (10:25):
Yeah and just was with him.
Daniel (10:27):
Hung out yeah.
TJ (10:27):
That might be some really good life advice.
Put the fishing pole down.
Yeah, there you go, there yougo Tag that you got any other
cool stories like that.
Danny (10:37):
Here's one that's fun.
So you know, with crappiefishing structure, like crappie
love structure under the waterto to congregate around their
schooling fish, and so we we'dcall it a honey hole.
You know, we'd go, we'd have,we'd we'd fish the entire
shoreline of beaver fort, youknow, trying to find, trying to
(10:57):
find this spot.
So we would have these spotsthat we go to and as a crappie
fisherman you kind of guardthose, yeah.
And so at one point dad waslike we're gonna go put some
tops under the water, we'regonna create some structure and
a lot of people will usechristmas trees or pvc pipe or
whatever.
But he was like, no, we're gonnabring a hacksaw and a couple
center blocks, which the statuteof limitations surely will
(11:20):
cover you know me on thisrecurring theme here.
TJ (11:23):
I think we said that last podcast.
I'm going to be careful.
Danny (11:26):
Yeah, it was like in that little John boat we put some
center blocks and some rope anda hacksaw and we went into this
cove and he was like all right,get out and cut that tree down
over there.
And like when I was a kid I hada sense for either I was just
super fearful or I had a senseone or the other and uh, about
snakes.
And he pulled up and the noseof the boat, kind of you know,
(11:47):
hit the shore.
He said get out and get thatone.
And I was like I don't, I wasstanding on the end of the boat
going I don't know, dad, itlooks snaky, maybe we should try
somewhere else.
And he was like just get out ofthe boat and cut it down.
And I'm like I don't know and Ijust couldn't bring myself to
do it.
And about that time I sensedmovement and like a foot from
the boat was just thisLouisville Slugger size water
(12:11):
mox and it all curled up and heshot off and went, like you know
, right beside the boat and Isat back down and I was like
nope, and so he was like allright, I guess we'll just I
don't think we ever did go andfind a top.
That day, I think, we abortedthe mission at that point.
TJ (12:27):
That's amazing.
So we talked last episode abouta time where I camped on top of
Fork Mountain and it was likeit was blowing at hurricane
forces, and so we were sayingthen that you know, some of
(12:48):
those times like that whenyou're scared or when you're
tough, like when you're freezing, in that ice fishing scenario
where you guys were that thosemake some of the best memories
for some reason.
Whatever it is about a toughtime in the outdoors just makes
them really good.
Daniel (12:52):
You'll remember it.
TJ (12:52):
Yeah.
Yeah, I've definitely beenscared like that by a snake in
the outdoors before.
Danny (12:54):
Yeah, oh multiple times we had.
So we had a small pond in thewoods back behind our house and
I used to go out there.
It was real small but I couldgo out there and catch brim and
every now and then you pull alargemouth.
And so I was out there fishingone summer and I was probably
like 12 or 13 or something likethat and never, never liked
wading through the briars andthe tall grass to get there, but
(13:17):
you know, it was like the way Icould go fishing.
So I got back there andstanding on the pond bank
fishing and just like in theboat, I just like had a sense
and I looked down and same thing, man, I promise you, there's
this huge water mox and like twofeet from me, curled up, and
all I could see was that bigwhite mouth open and I threw my
(13:40):
fishing pole up in the air and Ithink it was like one of those
Fred Flintstones, like my feetstarted moving long before.
You know, I started goinganywhere, definitely, but I ran
home and I never saw thatfishing pole again.
TJ (13:52):
I was like that's it.
Danny (13:53):
I don't think I went back down there till that fall when
everything had kind of, you know, the grass had died and all
that kind of stuff yeah, well,by some, by then, somebody else
picked up the fish, yeah yeah,probably.
Daniel (14:02):
We had a pond like that that had bullfrogs everywhere,
and that place grew some hugewater moccasins.
I mean, as a kid, I think theywere, like you know, four or six
inches around.
They were huge
Danny (14:13):
yeah, yeah.
Daniel (14:13):
But I don't know if they're really that big, but
they sure seemed that way.
TJ (14:16):
Every snake is big.
Yeah To me.
Danny (14:25):
Yeah, I have stories for days about outdoor things.
They would just have to come tome over time, but I think
they're probably some of myfavorite stories.
Daniel (14:29):
So we've kind of talked about outdoors.
What do you do for a living?
How did you get started in that?
Danny (14:35):
We help our clients envision and create spaces.
This is our goal, anyway is tohelp our clients envision and
create spaces that fostergathering and community.
Way is to help our clientsenvision and create spaces that
foster gathering and community,because we believe that the
relationships are the mostimportant thing and we want to
help people build, you know,beautiful spaces, that kind of
(14:56):
foster that you know the kind ofplaces where you go and you
don't want to leave.
You just want to sit and have aconversation until you know you
run out of time or daylight orenergy or whatever, and so for
me that means, uh, focus onoutdoor living spaces, um, you
know, bringing bringing thenatural world into the backyard
(15:16):
as much as possible, but alsoconsulting with people to make
sure that, uh, the space is,like, well thought out and
designed before you take offdown the road to do what you
want to do.
You know, because nobody wantsto backtrack and have to undo
what they've already done.
TJ (15:31):
Yeah, so you guys do things like consulting, contracting,
the whole works with spaces,like that?
Danny (15:36):
I guess yeah we do indoor and outdoor spaces.
TJ (15:39):
Okay.
Danny (15:40):
And as we grow.
We've only been in thisbusiness for a year and a half.
So, projects are getting justincrementally bigger.
TJ (15:46):
Yeah, I've seen some really cool projects that you've done
outdoors already, so I thinkthose are cool.
Thank you.
People have to look you up forDreams and Visions in Central
Arkansas and check that out.
Yeah, for sure.
So what led you to that, youthink?
Danny (15:59):
Well, somewhere around 15 plus years ago, I started a
business and it was a lawnlandscape business, primarily
with like maintaining existinglawns and landscapes mowing and
all that kind of stuff.
Daniel (16:12):
So you went from your lawn care business before and
you used a lot of chemicals andstuff for that lawn care
business and then now you'rekind of going more toward native
species, more natural.
Tell us more kind of like howyou got on that path.
Danny (16:25):
Yeah.
So when I did lawn care well,chemical lawn care I didn't care
about it, it was just a thingto do.
It was more the relationalaspect that I enjoyed, uh, and
helping people solve problems,things like that.
And then, as I kind of exitedthat and started my own
(16:45):
landscape company, I wasn'treally doing chemical lawn care
but we would use chemicals tomake things convenient.
And then on our property we hadlike tons of gravel driveway,
like a ridiculous amount ofweeding didn't do, and so I
would glyphosate, I would sprayRoundup around, you know, on the
driveway or do like a soilsterilant on the driveway, you
(17:05):
know, just kill everything, killthe soil.
And because it was convenient,man, you know and I didn't
really I didn't because I'd, youknow, taken EPA tests and all
this different stuff I thoughtthat yeah, no, this stuff, like
you use it according to labeland like it's good, it's safe,
it's fine, and there were a lotof things over time.
(17:26):
My wife was a huge voice inthis, this huge researcher, and
so over time I just realizedlike, yeah, yeah, they're
probably not as good as Lookingout for our best interest.
Yeah, yeah, probably not.
Yeah, exactly.
So there's like the sprayingand what it does to the soil.
There's all these other effectsthat it has Like, because, if
you get, I mean we had, likewhen I worked for that company,
(17:49):
we had like a client base oflike 3,500 people and we were
one of several businesses.
So you drive around town andthese whole entire neighborhoods
are nothing but like manicuredbermudas, zoysia, whatever.
And I'll tell you one of my oneof the most delightful things
about being a kid where I grewup was catching fireflies and I
was just like at one point,started realizing like where are
(18:11):
all the fireflies?
I don't see those anymore.
And uh, and started, I don'tknow, man, I just started slowly
becoming aware of like thegreater impact, um, that this
culture and you know the waythat we were doing things was
was impacting, like our insectsand bees and all these like
they're, you know, crucialbecause what feeds on them, you
(18:33):
know, like birds and bats andall kinds of stuff.
It's like it's a system.
All the pieces have to be inplace for it to be healthy,
right?
So, yeah, I think that was a areally, really slow like coming
around Like my my wife is a hugepart of it.
I probably would have neverbeen smart enough to figure it
out on my own, but throughthrough her researching and
(18:57):
presenting information to me andeverything, I started realizing
well, that's not the way I wantto go.
And then there's some podcastsor some documentaries
specifically that we watched,that were and we've talked about
this uh, you know, a little bigfarm, uh, back to Eden, uh and
like.
And then other voices like JoelSalatin, and I always liked the
(19:17):
idea of growing my own food,but I don't like annual gardens,
I don't like weeding, I like Ialways thought they were too
much work.
Daniel (19:23):
Yeah,
way too much work
TJ (19:24):
I agree, I don't get joy out of that.
Danny (19:26):
Yeah, and like I remember working in people's yards and
they'd have a, they'd have plumtrees or they'd have whatever,
and just and just like full offruit.
I'm like you don't buy thatmuch fruit at the grocery store,
you're going to spend a milliondollars, you know.
And so I was like, well, maybelike fruit trees would be pretty
cool, you know.
And so really it started withlike a small garden at our old
house, probably 15 years ago.
(19:47):
My wife started like she grew alittle, planted some asparagus,
some strawberries, just somesmall raised bed kind of stuff.
Daniel (19:54):
Yeah.
Danny (19:57):
And I thought that was super cool, just being able to
go out there and snap asparagusoff and eat it.
Daniel (20:00):
Yeah, I know what's on it.
Danny (20:01):
Yeah, exactly
Daniel (20:02):
that's what's really good.
Danny (20:03):
Yeah, and at that point I was still trying to get her to
treat stuff.
But it's just a slowprogression, man, you know.
TJ (20:11):
Yeah, so fast forward to now and you've got a yard and some
recently acquired acreage.
Danny (20:16):
Yeah.
TJ (20:17):
So what's going on with that ?
Danny (20:24):
Well, a few years ago we started.
It was kind of coming out ofthat crucible we spoke of and
kind of in the healing process,we were walking around our
existing property and looking atthe empty property next to us
that we'd wanted for a long timeand we had all these ambitions
that we kind of had to table forseveral years.
Well, for here's the thing fora long time I tabled it because
I was so overwhelmed with mybusiness that I couldn't look at
anything else it kept me out ofthe outdoors too, even though I
(20:46):
worked outdoors, but it kept meout of, you know, the woods,
from hunting, fishing, all thatstuff.
And then when we went throughwhat we went through, there was
like, and I was in bad physicalshape For several years I was
getting not more than four orfive hours sleep a night, but I
had been overweight most of mylife.
(21:08):
I'd lost a lot of weight in my20s and when I started a
business stress and whateverelse I started gaining weight
again and I'd had this injurythat I I didn't at the time,
like I had no idea like Iliterally like shattered my
ankle and I was afraid to takeoff work to go to the doctor,
cause I was like I don't want tolose my job, I don't want to.
(21:29):
You know how am I going toafford it?
Whatever?
I'll, just so I would just laceit up, wrap it as tight as I
could and kind of grit my teethuntil it finally got kind of
okay.
And then, a year or so later,like I remember the first time,
like my back went out like out,out, like you know, lower L4, 5
vertebra, like to the pointwhere I literally just dropped
to the ground, couldn't stand,and for about 15 years I had
(21:54):
chronic back pain and it waslike you know all the things.
It was like therapy andchiropractic and the you know
steroid epidurals in the back.
I had a discectomy where theyremoved some you know disc
material and stuff.
And it wasn't until I went to adoctor for it's a condition
called hammer toe, where yourlike tendons are drawn up in
your toes, and my wife said yougot to go get that figured out.
(22:17):
You're not going to be able towalk by the time you're 50.
And so I did and he came backin and he was like well, you
definitely, you know, needsomething done with that.
But what the what's up withthis shattered ankle?
I was like what are you talkingabout, doc?
He said, when did that happen?
And as soon as he asked me, Iremembered and I was like I did
the math I was probably 12 or 13years ago.
(22:39):
And he's like you've beenwalking around, and so we put
two and two together.
So, anyway, like that's a bigpart of my story too, though,
because when you deal withchronic pain, anybody that's
dealt with it for a long timelike it has all kinds of other
effects in your life, mental andspiritual, and you know it's,
and so, um, so I say all that tosay is we'd been through this
(23:03):
four year period or so wherewe've just been getting by and
everything kind of falling intodisrepair and our ambitions of
having garden spaces andeverything else they'd all gone
to crap and it was all overgrown.
We're just overwhelmed anddeflated and and walking around
thinking, well, if we only hadthis equipment or this whatever,
(23:25):
if, if, if only we had this andwe could do this, if we only
had this land, that we could dothis.
And my wife had some wisdom andinsight and reminded me that
when Moses asked God, you knowwhat do you got to work with,
and it was just, you know, thestaff, and that was what they
(23:46):
worked with.
And so I got to work, doingwhat I could, you know, and
sometimes it was like 20 or 30minutes at a time and my back
was just played out and I had togo inside.
But we started working on thisproperty and we discovered that
this pile of wood chips that afriend had dropped off, that had
a tree company a few yearsbefore, had turned to just like
rich black dirt.
(24:07):
And that got us thinking, youknow.
And then we watched the back toEden film and they talk a lot
about sheet mulching.
And there's this guy in the inthe California you know, high,
high desert North California youget like nine inches of rain a
year and every farm around himis irrigated and it's just dust
bowls.
And here he's got this.
(24:27):
I don't know, I can't rememberhow many acres it is.
Um, that's essentially anorchard, but then under all the
trees he's got all kinds ofdiversity of everything that you
can imagine and he's got.
But this is the sheet mulchingthing.
He's always talking about cover, ground cover, and so he
(24:47):
manages to do this thing andhave the most like lush
vegetation and produce that youcan imagine, where you snap it
and water just squirts out andno irrigation, in nine inches of
rainfall a year.
TJ (24:59):
Wow.
Danny (25:00):
And so that was.
That was like a really bigthing for me.
I latched onto that, and so Iended up reaching out to a local
well, several local treecompanies and I found one that
would bring out their wood chips, and so at this point we've
probably taken five or 600 yardsof wood chips over the last
three years onto our propertyand for a lot of that time they
were just in piles and my wifewas like people are going to
(25:21):
hate us, you know, but we had avision and we just started
working towards it.
So you know we have all of these.
You know I had talked to you,you know, privately, earlier
about like just how manyambitions and how many interests
I have and how I'm having tolike really pull back and figure
(25:43):
out how to start taking onebite at a time and really
getting smart about like well,which of these ambitions are
going to be foundational, thatthe others can be built upon,
and trying to focus in on that.
Here's the thing is I know alittle bit of stuff about a ton
of these different things andyou hear words like centropic
food forest, like permaculture,like tree guilds and, I think,
(26:05):
what we see our property as nowis a ground zero.
to just try all these things out, we really kind of started by
planting fruit trees, fruitingshrubs.
You know we've got a decentamount of diversity already and
I don't even feel like we'vegotten started.
We've got multiple varieties ofplums, apples, pears, figs,
(26:28):
cherries, so on and so forth.
You know we've got elderberries, blueberries, blackberries,
raspberries.
That's pretty cool, but stillwhen you look around the
property it's like nothing youknow we have like how many acres
is it on?
So we have an acre and a halfthat we've been on and then we
were able to close on that landabout a month ago.
(26:49):
Next to us Now we have a threeacre property.
Daniel (26:51):
So you have all that on an acre now, though.
So that makes it viable for alot of people.
Danny (26:57):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely and honestly.
One of the lessons that I'velearned has come out of the last
couple of years.
I was super defeated the firstyear.
I lost like six blueberryplants and four fig trees and a
bunch of other stuff, and I wassuper defeated and I ran into
this guy and he is in likeagroforestry where they're
(27:18):
applying a lot of these sameprinciples to like growing
animals, meat.
You know, I was just kind ofexplaining to him like man, you
just screwed everything up andset us back a whole year, and
and so this guy was like man,was there anything you learned,
do you think you know?
When I thought about it, I waslike, yeah, actually, like figs
need some some wind cover, some,something like you know, cause
(27:40):
I had two fig trees that werejust like exploded and I kind of
looked at the.
I observed, you know, thosewere out in the middle of the
field, these were on the youknow the uh west side of my shop
and had that kind of wind breakand a little bit of afternoon
shade, and so I was like, okay,well, those are happy there and
not there.
So I learned something there.
And then I learned that, likeyou know, as I'd been kind of
(28:03):
shotgun approach, putting stuffall over the property, I think.
In my mind I was like if I juststart putting things everywhere
, eventually it'll just populateand fill in.
And it was like no, I'm justputting things out on their own
and they're struggling and theyneed, they need cover, they need
support plants, they need youknow, and so.
So that was that was big man.
He helped me because he waslike sounds like you had a
(28:25):
really good year, like youlearned some lessons that you
won't repeat, you know, or someyou know.
So anyway, but like the property, it's like we kind of started
with the idea of doing thesetree guilds.
What's a tree guild?
Here's the idea of a tree guildyou may have like a fruit tree
and like what you might calllike an emergent, like a nut
tree or something like that, andthen you're going to have like
(28:47):
designated kind of bed spacearound them and then out from
there you're going to plant allkinds of other plants.
You're going to plant some likefruiting shrubs.
You're going to plant, you know, nitrogen fixing plants, some
other like really fast growingtrees that can be used to hard
prune every year to build thesoil.
You know, you're like puttingcarbon on the ground so you can
(29:09):
build soil, Okay, and so you'rereally trying to.
You've got these two main trees, like a nut tree and a fruit
tree, let's say, and then you'regoing to surround them with
community that is going to givethem what they need and make
them stronger and makeeverything grow better and
stronger and faster.
And so yeah, so that's kind ofthe idea and I was like that
(29:29):
that clicks.
You know, that makes sense.
That's the way it is withpeople too, and so that was like
one idea and we had all theseideas from all these different
places right.
It was like well, sheetmulching.
Definitely want to incorporatethat because, as a landscaper,
part of my previous love forglyphosate had to do with my
hatred for Bermuda and anybodyin Arkansas that tries to do
(29:52):
some gardening.
They're going to hate Bermuda.
It's just a nightmare to deal a.
They're going to hate Bermuda.
You know it's just a nightmareto deal with.
Uh, especially in this climate.
Quick question so sheet mulchingyou're talking about just
laying down, like those woodchips.
So if you get cardboard or like, I guess if you want to spend a
ton of money, you could do, youknow, like Ram board or
something like that, butsomething that's like a
(30:13):
cardboard that doesn't have likesheen on it or like a lot of
printing on it or anything likethat just natural cardboard with
plenty of overlap and then 12to 18 inches of not mulch, like
you would go and buy finishedmulch but wood chips from like
fresh trees, because you'regoing to have the carbon that
you need but you're also goingto have all the nitrogen and
(30:34):
everything that you need andthat's going to allow it to
break down like it needs to.
But sheet mulching takes time.
So we're like we had thisexperience with the big pile of
mulch that we found and we'relike, oh, I'll just put mulch
down in a year later I'll havedirt and it's like well, a big
mistake, you know it's like yeahyeah, so we have like several
thousand square feet that likewe think we're going to be able
(30:55):
to plant in next year, and thenthe next year comes and it's
like, nope, not quite so, youknow, like things like that that
we're learning.
But in the end we found, likecentropic food forestry and I'm
going to try my very best like,please, lord, nobody criticize
me for this Cause I don't evenfully understand it.
I don't know all the properterminology.
You, daniel, and I beat on thisone, yeah go ahead, but it's
(31:15):
very interesting to me, yeah,and so you know you'll have all
these different like when you'replanning it out.
You'll have like.
From what I understand, you'relooking more at like strata than
you are like.
Do they have the rightrelationship in terms of like?
Are they?
Uh, you know what specificroles they play and you're
looking to like?
(31:36):
You know your upper canopy.
You only want to have like in agiven space.
You only have like 10 to 20% ofthat given space, end up as
like upper canopy, okay, andthen you're going to have a
larger percentage of it.
That's going to be like subcanopy, and then so on and so
forth, right.
And so the idea is to plan thisout very well and very
strategically to where you'replanting everything you're going
(31:59):
to plant.
You're going to go ahead andplant all of the emergent like
upper story trees.
You're going to plant yoursmaller fruit trees and you're
going to be planting trees like,for example, one that we have
here in Arkansas that peoplethink of as invasive would be
like the mimosa tree, okay, butwhat that does in that setting
(32:22):
is it grows really quickly andit produces a lot of carbon that
you can hard prune them and putthat carbon back in it because
you're trying to build the soiltoo.
Okay, everything that you'redoing when you're going through
and you're pruning and you'reworking this stuff, you're
putting it all back on the soil.
You're just trying to buildsoil, um and so, like soil is
life right.
(32:42):
Even even in the bible it talksabout like it likens our heart,
the condition of our heart, tocondition of soil.
Like healthy soil is going togrow healthy things.
A healthy heart is going togrow healthy things and produce
good fruit.
Right, right, I talk about thatall day too.
So you're, you're planning thisout and you're planting like a
lot of diversity really closetogether at the same time at the
(33:05):
same time at the same time, andso you've got these.
I've like proof of concept.
I've only seen on YouTubevideos and everything you know
like there's a lot of planningthat's going into this and like
one of my objectives right nowis I'm, I'm, I'm getting ready
to build some what they call airpruning beds so that I can
start tons of trees foressentially free, like almost
(33:28):
nothing, because it's like man,if you're going to go out and
buy all this stuff, like I don'thave that, I don't have those
resources you know most of usdon't yeah Right, so anyway.
I don't have that, I don't havethose resources, most of us
don't yeah, right.
So, anyway, you do this in sucha way that, just like with the
tree guild, but in a littledifferent way, everybody's
helping everybody, right.
And so as these trees arecoming up, they're shading these
(33:52):
other trees that need thatshade and protection, and as
that's happening, you've gotthese nitrogen fixers and you've
got all these things going onsimultaneously, and so you'll
see these guys that are growingtrees that would normally
they'll get to this size in fouryears.
That would normally take like10 to 15, you know, uh, and.
And so you're just creatingthese ideal conditions where you
(34:15):
have, um, just know, perfect,you know, coming together of
things to kind of support oneanother.
TJ (34:25):
Yeah, and you've done it all naturally, without the use of
chemicals and things like wewere talking about earlier.
Danny (34:29):
Yes, and that's been, that's been really frustrating
as, as we've gotten started,because Bermuda has really taken
over a lot of things, but aswe've gone along, what we're
doing now is like we're kind ofretroactively going back into
those places where we've got.
Like, for example, we've gotprobably a dozen blackberry
plants on a row that are cominginto their third year.
(34:51):
I'm just going to have tomanually get down there and weed
it and get all that out.
And then I'm going to have tomanually get down there and weed
it and get all that out.
And then I'm going to have tobe really careful about how we
apply cardboard around each ofthose plants, give it a good
mulch base and make sure thatBermuda can't, you know,
proliferate again.
But where we're planning newthings going forward, we're just
(35:11):
going to make sure that Bermudais not an issue at all.
And so for us, here's the thingsure that Bermuda is not an
issue at all.
And so for us, here's the thingyou can deal with Bermuda by
excavating everything down to acertain depth, or you can
eradicate it by repeatedexcavations.
You know chemical applications,or you can try to cover it up.
(35:32):
But that's like you know, if he, depending on how you go about
it.
Um, and so what we have?
What I've realized is that, uh,it's going to take a lot of
planning and prep and waiting.
TJ (35:44):
Yeah.
Danny (35:44):
So we, where we put down a new sheet mulch area, we don't
, we don't anticipate plantinganything, anything there for
about three years, wow.
And so it's a it's, it's.
It's like that's the trade-off.
If you want to do it and youwant to do it naturally, and you
already have like establishedthings that are like in that
(36:06):
property, we just we just bought, we've got that kind of
invasive Chinese honeysuckle outthere like crazy.
We've got privet, we've got,we've got some really nasty
stuff that we don't want outthere, and so, but I'm trying to
see, I'm trying to see thingsdifferently and honestly, some
of that stuff, especially thehoneysuckle, as far as, as far
as what I know now, we may haveto excavate that or do something
(36:31):
.
You know something that we don'treally want to do, to get
control of it.
But, for example, like theprivet, you know, I was like
gosh dang, I was so just likehating it.
And then I like, when I startedclearing this, this, uh, like
back fence line, I realized likegood grief, that's a lot of
carbon material, what a blessing, right.
And so it's like I realizedlike good grief that's a lot of
(36:52):
carbon material.
What a blessing, right.
And so it's like, okay, well, ifI pollard these trees, then I
can, I can.
It does a few things.
One if the big ones, if I, if Ipollard them, like so.
I think.
I'm using the right term.
Thanks for calling me out.
I'm just kidding.
So like say, say I cut themlike three feet above the ground
(37:15):
and just leave the stump threefoot off the ground.
They're going to.
They're going to start shootingup new growth.
Well, one thing that's going todo is it's going to be, it's
going to be growing me morecarbon material right that I can
use the following fall
TJ (37:26):
Cause you're taking the nutrients that it's taken from
the ground or release them backin by either mulching, burning
or whatever you're doing.
Yeah, that's right.
Danny (37:33):
Yeah, that's right.
And uh, and the other thingthat I think I don't know, but I
think that it's going to dobecause of the, the way that the
roots are all interconnected.
I kind of feel like if I hardprune and pollard this whole
line of these things, then allthe little ones that are trying
to grow up like underneath them,I think the energy is going to
kind of go to where they'retrying to heal and and keep
(37:55):
things going.
I don't know, we're going tofind out like a lot of this is
being really patient and tryingthings and observing nature and
seeing what happens.
TJ (38:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's what I'm figuring out with.
Our land, too, is like you knowthere's a lot of things that we
want to get rid of up there thatare invasive, um, but I'm with
you.
I don't want to use thechemicals as much as possible,
like there's.
There's some things where youjust kind of have to bite the
bullet and do it, whether youwant to or not.
But you know, if you can avoidit, I think it's best.
But, yeah, learning thosedifferent things that you can do
(38:25):
naturally to take care of thatspace is, I think, what we're
all about.
Yeah, sure, the more ways wecan explore to do that better,
right?
Daniel (38:31):
yeah, even if it takes longer, like you're saying, yes,
and see we've talked about thisa little bit but I've kind of
had a vision of like trying toget like neighborhoods to do the
food for us and stuff.
But how would you ever get overthe, the bermuda lawns and the
zoysia lawns and like people?
I mean people move on averageseven year, every seven years.
So how would you ever get acommunity to like bond together
(38:55):
and get like fruit trees goingand things like that?
You couldn't do a communitygarden, I think like you know,
two people would be doing it.
Everybody else would be tryingto eat the fruit.
But you know.
I just don't know if that visionis even possible with how.
You know how slow it is.
Danny (39:08):
Well, I think it's worth pursuing.
Slow it is.
Well, I think it's worthpursuing.
And I think one tiny way thatI've started to kind of edge
that way is like if you take thetypical American house, like
you've got, you've got a yardand you've usually got some
landscape around the front ofthe house and maybe a little bit
around the back, and that'sjust what we're used to seeing,
it's what we're used to dealingwith.
(39:29):
And so, like I've started,whenever I do a landscape design
now, um, I'll, you know, I'llfill people out and talk to them
and ask them, kind of, whatthey're interested in, but like
I like to use as many nativespecies of shrubs and grasses
and trees as I possibly can, andeven if they continue to treat
(39:49):
their lawn, then their landscapeis going to be full of, you
know, native plants at least,and so that's like a step in the
right direction and I thinkthere's a lot of steps in the
right direction that we can takewithout it having to be like a.
You know, if you can create alandscape that looks just as
beautiful or more beautiful thanyour typical landscape, full of
(40:10):
, you know, stuff, that justornamental stuff that comes from
wherever, that doesn't reallyadd any value or benefit to
Takes a ton of water andchemicals.
Exactly yeah.
Daniel (40:20):
See, that's kind of my vision, like if you could get
away from all the extra wateringand all that, like it would be
awesome.
Danny (40:26):
Yeah, I agree.
Daniel (40:27):
And then you get the butterflies back in the
neighborhoods and the lightningbugs, like you were talking
about Like right now you go outthere, it's pretty sterile out
there.
Everything's sprayed.
Everybody's house is sprayed,you know.
Danny (40:38):
Yeah, you know you mentioned like the, just like
not having to use water.
I think that's what's soawesome about like if, like the
vision that I have 10, 15 yearsdown the road for our property
other than, like you know,greenhouse stuff or like starts
and stuff like that I don't planon using any water on anything
(40:59):
and I don't even think I canimagine like it's going to be so
insanely productive, you know,that piece of property in 10 to
15 years and it's not going torequire any water or any
chemicals, and I think that'spretty cool, yeah,
self-sustaining, and you know,food for you guys as a family
too, that's you know usuallyvery expensive, yeah, yeah.
(41:23):
Well, you know, like we havepretty full lives.
I have a business, my wifeworks full time from home and we
homeschool our kids becausewe're crazy people.
My wife works full time fromhome and we homeschool our kids
because we're crazy people.
Not only do we not all havejust all the time in the world
to do what we want to do on theland, but also we don't have all
the time in the world toresearch things, and so I'm
trying to keep my eyes wide open, to build community that is,
(41:45):
that cares about the same thingsthat we do and nobody's off
limits.
Like some people live in anapartment and they would love to
have some space to do somegardening, but they can't come
be a part of what we're doing.
You know, we just want to buildcommunities so we can learn more
, we can grow more, and we wouldreally like this property.
(42:06):
Like we have a lot of a lot oflike ideas, ideas and ambitions
for the property, but but reallywe do want it to be just.
We want to have people over allthe time and we want it to be
like a central hub for peoplethat are exploring all these
things that we're exploringright, we want to learn from.
We want to teach, um, we wantto, we like, we want to have so
(42:27):
much diversity that we caneventually maybe be like the,
the play that like a seed bankof like all these things that
are like maybe harder to find,that are like we're losing
things, you know, and so I don'tknow what all that looks like
and I don't know how we'll getthere, but that little three
(42:48):
acres right there, I think, isgoing to be a really powerful
tool for connecting people, youknow, and that's a big part of
it for us too.
Daniel (42:58):
Yeah, what is that documentary or that TV show you
showed me the other day aboutthe food forest that guy planted
, like a long time ago?
TJ (43:07):
That was the one in.
Hershey Pennsylvania, that Dannyactually showed us.
He sent that one to me.
Daniel (43:10):
Yeah, that's super cool.
Yeah, super cool.
TJ (43:13):
Yeah, was that John Hershey that did that in Hershey
Pennsylvania?
Danny (43:17):
Something like that.
Yeah, my memory's not that good.
TJ (43:19):
We'll try to include a link in the podcast.
Danny (43:22):
Super cool though it was super cool, yeah, yeah really
cool, and the one thing that Ilearned from that was like, like
you know, you can take a treethat maybe is a shorter-lived
tree and graft it onto rootstockthat is longer-lived rootstock.
And like I was like, oh wow,that's really cool.
You know you could do some coolstuff there too.
TJ (43:39):
Yeah, we got a guy coming up soon, Paul Foshee with his
pecan farm.
He's done a lot of that kind ofgrafting and stuff.
He's super knowledgeable aboutthat.
See, that's the one guy I needto meet, yeah.
So we're hoping to dive intothat kind of stuff with him a
little bit.
We're actually going to walkthrough his old orchard where
he's done a lot of that and lookat some of the trees he grafted
years and years ago.
So I think that's cool.
It'll be kind of the same thing, yeah.
(44:01):
But yeah, I think you know notonly the love for the outdoors,
but you know how do we eat morehealthy?
How do we take care of ourfamily?
What about our yard?
How can it be more aligned withhow it should be natural,
native species, the animalscoming around like they should
you know insects, lightning bugs, whether it's bees?
(44:33):
you know butterflies, all thatyou know.
That's what this whole thing isabout to us.
Danny (44:36):
I want all of it, man.
We just started bees this lastyear.
TJ (44:40):
Our friend Chris Baker got me.
We met with Dr Chris soon too.
Danny (44:43):
Yeah, got me set up on bees.
My one of one of my, one of mymillions of ambitions is to
build a bat box and get somebats on the property you know,
uh, to keep, you know, unwantedinsects down.
Daniel (44:56):
give some pressure on that stuff, yeah it reminds me
of that little big farm that wasso cool, so cool man, they had
the ducks going in there andeating the you know.
Danny (45:05):
Like that they had a problem with snails, and so
they're like turn the ducksloose in there.
You know it's like nature willdo it.
TJ (45:11):
Yeah, we can include that link too.
I think it was the Biggest.
Daniel (45:13):
Little.
TJ (45:13):
Farm is actually the title of that.
Oh, okay.
Daniel (45:16):
Yeah, that makes sense.
The other one is called weFound America's Lost Food Forest
.
Danny (45:20):
Okay, better send me that one.
TJ (45:22):
Yeah, it's good yeah, that's awesome.
So other people looking to getinto these same things that are
like minded to us you know, whatdo you think is like the
easiest way to get into eithernative landscaping or these food
forests, you know, just eatinghealthy, that kind of thing.
What do you think that thefirst step is?
(45:43):
What was your first step?
Maybe?
Danny (45:46):
uh, my first step was just copious amounts of YouTube
watching.
TJ (45:51):
Okay, if I'm honest, yeah.
Danny (45:52):
And then taking the first steps and going.
You know I don't have much towork with, but I'll just work
with what I can.
You got to get your butt outthere and do something.
Research first a little bit.
It's ridiculous what we haveavailable on YouTube and you can
just, you know, chase your ownrabbit trails, the things you're
interested in.
If you look for it, you'll findpeople that are doing these
(46:15):
things and you haveconversations and I learn new
stuff all the time and build newconnections all the time.
Just start somewhere, then Juststart and just do something.
Yeah, don't be scared.
And if you're in an apartmentor something, you don't have
space.
We've talked about, you know,doing stuff on windowsills.
Right, maybe there's somebodyout there that has the space but
is overwhelmed and you canpartner with somebody you know.
TJ (46:36):
Yeah, I mean, last year we did like wildflowers on our
flower bed you know and we sawtons of insects you know right
there at the front of the house.
You know, not everybody wantsinsects right there at the front
of their house, but to me itwas cool because we saw more
wildlife and you know thebecause we saw more wildlife and
, you know, the wife had all theflowers that she wanted, and so
it was a win-win for all of us.
Kids got to see the bugs andplay with all that stuff right,
(46:56):
so pretty awesome.
But yeah, that was just our wayof starting I think that sounds
good.
Daniel (47:01):
Yeah, I appreciate you being here yeah, I love the
stories um.
Danny (47:06):
I'm sure we'll have you back on here that'd be awesome,
especially when I would loveupdates on the food yeah, that's
what I was gonna we're going tohave to check in from time to
time.
TJ (47:13):
We may have to like have Danny create a site where we can
like follow the progress outthere on the farm, something
like that.
Danny (47:21):
That's another.
This is one of my othermissions is like track what I'm
doing and take, like you know,photos videos.
TJ (47:27):
Well, we look forward to talking with you again later and
checking in on the progress.
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