EP 3 | Seclusion Seeker: Searching for Waterfalls and Finding Peace

Come with us as we talk to our good friend, UK native, and Arkansas waterfall chaser, Gez Rogers. Looking for seclusion, Gez's waterfall journey started in 2018 after he tragically lost his son, Josh. Since then, he has visited over 500 waterfalls in the Natural State alone.

In this episode, Gez shares how you can visit waterfalls yourself, offers advice on hiking with a loyal canine companion, and discusses the healing qualities of the outdoors. Listen as he talks about his journey and tells about some interesting encounters he had along the way.

Follow Gez's waterfall adventures on social media:

On TikTok: @gezrogers Waterfalls in AR & Beyond

On Facebook: Waterfalls in Arkansas & Other Cool Places

On Instagram: @waterfallsinar

🔗 Epic Glass Recycling

_______________________

What is the Natural Obsession Podcast all about?

Growing up, we all had those moments in nature that stuck with us—whether it was a quiet walk in the woods or a grand adventure. On Natural Obsession, it’s our desire to bring those moments to life. As we talk to people from all walks of life we will learn how they fell in love with the outdoors, the different ways they enjoy it today, and explore how we can work together to ensure these spaces are around for years to come. It’s all about sharing memories from the outdoors and ensuring future generations can make their own.

To find out more about Natural Obsession and hosts, Daniel Emison and TJ Virden, visit our website at https://www.natob.co/.

If you have questions about episodes or have guest recommendations please email us at [e-mail].

Follow us on social media to keep up with upcoming guests and episode info:

• Natural Obsession on Facebook
• @NatObPodcast on Instagram

Episode Transcript

(00:55):
welcome.
Today we're joined by our goodfriend, Gez Rogers, UK native
Leeds soccer's greatest fan andArkansas waterfaller.
Gez, welcome to the show.
Thanks for having us.
You guys, Thank you, Thanks forcoming.
Yeah, buddy, so I guess we metthrough me actually working on
your van, Is that correct?

Gez (01:13):
We did indeed, and many a wreck, ding and repair job since
through just myself and thefamily right.

TJ (01:21):
Yeah, some water leaks in the van I, I think as you were
outfitting it, I think we evendid some insulation inside of it
for the whole.
Uh, what you had coming up with, the for sure, chasing yeah
yeah, so I said waterfall, orwhat would you label yourself as
?

Gez (01:33):
um, probably a seclusion seeker seclusion.
So um, have you trademarkedthat?
No, it's a good idea, though,isn't?
it, yeah, it is uh, no, I'm surewe'll get into it as we go by.
Um, I'm a destination hiker,okay, so there has to be a
reason for me to do that.
I'm not a through hiker.
Um, there are plenty, plenty,plenty more people you know,

(01:55):
more experienced and will go forlonger than than I do in in the
hike and exploring world.
For me, I'd have I I typicallywould be um.
Especially early on, I'd bemotivated or inspired by a
picture that I saw somewhere andsaid, oh yeah, I want to go see
that right then I'd figure outhow to go, how to go get there,
but that would create an in andout or a loop or or something

(02:17):
like that.
You know, from um start to end,so, uh, so yeah, I mean,
typically that would be um.
When I really started, Isuppose would be waterfalls
because it happened to bewaterfall season, but for me it
doesn't matter.
If it's a good old view or youknow something along those lines
, then then yeah, but I'm really.
Would you find me hiking 20miles of the ozark highlands

(02:38):
trail just for the sake ofknocking out 20 miles of the
ozark highlands trail?
It'd have to be a reason alongthat section for me to do it.

Daniel (02:44):
Yeah, okay.

TJ (02:45):
Why don't you tell us a little bit about your family,
maybe where you're from, thatkind of thing?
Yeah, for sure.

Gez (02:50):
So from England, originally the God's country, yorkshire.
I'm a Yorkshireman through andthrough, and where they speak
like that it's a very thickaccent there in Yorkshire it is
lads.
I, um, you're right.
Um, my dog Leeds is named afterLeeds, as a soccer fan and a
soccer player and and what haveyou, my team Leeds has its ups

(03:11):
and downs and I figured bycalling my dog Leeds, at least
one Leeds would have a win.
Would have a win and make mehappy on a daily basis, right so
that's how that rolled.
But, um, I ended up here by here, by virtue of around the world
tour that I never really grewout of.
I spent a couple of years inKey West, met my now ex-wife and

(03:33):
moved around Florida a coupleof times before Pennsylvania,
before Ohio, before Arkansas.
Arkansas in 1999 was late.
1999 was when we got here andjust fell in love with the state
.
No desire to ever leave.
You know, done my fair share,corporate relocations, which is
what they were at the time, bythe virtue of the companies that
I worked for.

(03:53):
They were buying there's alwayssomebody buying somebody else
out, kind of thing and thatcreated the opportunity and
subsequent move.
But but, yeah, that's how weended up here.
Um, have three kids my two girls, hannah, the youngest actually,
the, the was middle child and,of course, as you know, um, my
son josh, who passed away sixyears or so ago.
Yes, sir, um, but um, but yeah,you know, loving life was very

(04:18):
involved in the soccer circuitfor quite some time, as a player
, as a coach, um, and as a coachof my kids directly, as well as
other teams.
But but I've since moved on tofrom from that, as everybody's
kind of grown out of it.
You know so.
So now I'm fairly removed,other than watching back to
leeds, right, other thanwatching leeds, then that's the,
that's the extent of it nowokay.

TJ (04:39):
So did you get involved in the outdoors, like uh, when you
were in the uk, or was that likeuh, you came to the US, kind of
thing?

Gez (04:46):
Yeah, a little bit.
So my earliest memory there,actually, at a place called
Bolton Abbey in Yorkshire, whatI remember that is breaking a
collarbone somewhere along thelines, and I must have been
about five.
We weren't not at all a wealthyfamily, you know, the outdoors
and vacations were kind of fewand far between, but it usually

(05:07):
ended up in somewhere, you know,in the good old outdoors, you
know, on the coast, somewhere.
It was never a holiday resort,it was never a, um, a
Mediterranean Island typeenvironment.
It was always somewhere thatwould be kind of low key, um,
but then as I in my, myformative years so you know,
double digits on up up, I wasvery much, so more involved in,
in playing soccer, you know, sothat kind of nixed a lot of

(05:29):
things right, um, but always had.
It's funny, I call my, mydaughter, actually the
adventurous one.
I think she might get that fromme a little bit, because I was
always the one that wanted tosee the you know what was over
the horizon, what was around thecorner, what was over that hill
, whatever it might be.
I had a bit of a yearning foradventure, I suppose.
So there, cool.

Daniel (05:53):
So what brought you to the US?
Was it a corporate job?

Gez (05:57):
No, not at all.
It was literally around-the-world tour that I
never grew out of and never gotaround the world either.

TJ (06:02):
We talk a music tour or what kind of tour?

Gez (06:04):
I never grew out of and never got around the world,
either we talk a music tour orwhat kind of tour?
No, no.
It was just, you know, let's getup and go, kind of thing.
And you know I could talk forhours and hours and hours on
that but ultimately didn't evencome close to making it around
the world and probably spent atthe time the two or three people
that I was immediately with.
We were spending money fasterthan you could possibly imagine,

(06:26):
right, you know on the funnyside of things.
So I, you know, whatever I hadsaved up to come and explore
with, I'm going to use the poundto dollar at the time as an
exchange rate as an example,right, so it was probably for
every pound you had, right, thatwas worth $2.
A can of Coke might have been apound in england at the time,

(06:47):
but here it meant it was 50cents.
So everything was, in our minds, half price, right.
So that led us down the path of, you know, nice hotels and
rental cars because we thoughtit was cheap as chips.
Yeah, right, but that rapidlychanged into, you know,
greyhound bus journeys for for awhile, kind of thing.
But but, um, yeah, I mean longversion of the story is um,

(07:10):
certainly explored quite a bit,been to, been to quite a few
fair places, but ended up in keywest.
I want to say this must havebeen 1989, 1990 perhaps.
Um, I might be off by a year orsomething here.
And you know, that's where Imet my now ex-wife.
But I spent a couple of yearsdown there before getting with
the corporate program, you knowas back into reality.

(07:35):
You know kids coming, youngkids along the way, you know
getting the real deal, jobs kindof thing and what have you.
And that was where corporaterelocations kind of kicked in
for bringing me around andultimately here to Little Rock.

Daniel (07:47):
Yeah.
So once you got to Little Rock,what made you fall in love with
Arkansas in particular?
A lot of people don't you know.
They don't think of Arkansas assomewhere to stop very long.

Gez (07:56):
You'd absolutely be right and I would tell you in my back
to my traveling days verybriefly.
I really don't remember much ofArkansas when I was traveling
around, not, you know.
I'm struggling even now tothink of something that I saw
back in the late eighties, earlynineties, whatever.
That was like wow.
And relocating here from theEastern seaboard area means

(08:18):
you're probably flying over theMississippi Delta right.
Whenever I flew in, likewhether it's looking for houses,
or you know initially what I'slooking for houses, or you know
initially what I was for jobscope.
You know what am I doing here.
Who am I meeting here?
Everything was just flat.
Yeah, you know.
You see that mississippi riverdown there and it's just flat
like, yeah this is gonna beboring, um, but I soon realized
that if you kind of somewhatdraw a a line from southwest

(08:42):
arkansas, kind of roughlythrough northeast Arkansas, but
you stay west of that line,life's going to be good right, I
agree.
And that's what got me, and youknow, living here.
I was fortunate through, youknow, a couple other promotions
for the companies that I workedfor where I was able to travel,

(09:02):
and I traveled statewide, I'msorry, nationwide, you know, at
the time for a couple ofcompanies, without having to
move, and when you're just kindof flying over the opposite side
of Arkansas gives you adifferent perspective as well.
To be fair, it would probablytake me until maybe 2005, 2006,
though, to really get a grasp ofyou know how beautiful the
Ozarks are, and even theOuachita's.

(09:24):
Ouachita's are just gorgeoustoo, so underrated.

TJ (09:26):
yeah, I love the washington's, yeah, yeah yeah,
so you mentioned earlier thatyou've lost your son josh, and I
think that was in 2018, was it?
Is that correct, yeah, yeah,yeah, you want to tell us a
little bit about that, maybe howit got you outdoors more?

Gez (09:39):
absolutely, because it does uh, it does kind of lead us to
to a lot of the questions you'reasking.
So in June of 2018, my youngestdaughter, hannah, was due to
give birth Six o'clock one day.
There we have.
You know, I'm a grandfather forthe first time, and the last
picture we have of my son, josh,is him holding his nephew.

(10:01):
Before the next day in theearly hours.
He's unfortunately passed awayand in some fairly tragic
circumstances.
A lot of noise going on in mylife at the time from, you know,
a lot of business issues and soon, but my way of shielding
myself from the noise was to goand explore the outdoors a

(10:23):
little bit.
You know, I started going toplaces where I just knew my
phone wouldn't work, so I didn'thave to answer that call or
respond to that text if I didn'tknow about it.
Yeah, um, very unlikely to meetpeople, especially as time went
by, where I kind of figured outhere's the popular trails and
here's where nobody's going tosee you and you're not going to
see anybody kind of thing, right?
So, um, so, yeah, that's kindof um the past and my son and

(10:47):
tragic because it was kind ofdid definitely directly take me
down the path that I am now justlooking for a more simple life.
Um, it was a great way to justfind peace and I actually I'll
even respond to people nowtelling them I hike to heal.
So when they say, why do you dowhat you do?
And I know you hike to heal,and if, when they say, why do
you do what you do?
And I hike to heal, and if thecircumstances lean to a deeper

(11:07):
conversation, then sometimesI'll go deeper for them, but if
not, I don't want to put tearsin anybody's eyes, so I'll just
leave it at that.

TJ (11:17):
Yeah, I think that Daniel and I have said the same thing.
We haven't been through thattragic situation like you have,
but even the small life traumasthat we have, you know, we feel
like we can get that rest andthat healing.

Gez (11:31):
We're in the outdoors so I, I get that, yeah, the, the um,
the, the, the therapy.
The therapy of the good oldoutdoors is probably I don't
know, you know, I don't supposeI would have even realized it as
much at the time.
Certainly, initially I was justin a bubble.
You know, I was in my own zone,you know, didn't really notice

(11:52):
a lot of what was going onaround me for the first three,
four, five months after Josh'spassing.
But looking back on it,absolutely you know the power of
therapy and nature is justbeautiful, no matter what the
season.
You know You've gotseclusionlusion, you've got
nature, you've got birds singing, you've got snowfall,
independent on the season, rightand honestly, the, the uh, the

(12:13):
sound of running water.
You know that's proven to behighly.
You know whether it's a creekor a waterfall or you know the
sound of running water just hitsthe spot and absolutely it did
for me.

Daniel (12:21):
So so yeah yeah, I'm that way with campfire, so I
through hike sometimes, but Ithink I hike to get to camping
is what I want to do Get to thecampfire, going and sitting
around and hanging out.

Gez (12:36):
I love a good campfire.
That's another therapy session.
I could stare at flames forlonger than it's probably good
for you, that's for sure.

TJ (12:44):
Yeah, we had that conversation again last podcast.
I think Daniel was talkingabout how that's like.
His sound that transports himinto the wilderness or into that
rest place is the crackling ofa fire.
So, yeah, I think that may beuniversal, Honestly fires are
kind of celebratory too.

Gez (13:00):
When you get a good campfire going, that's like yeah
, yeah, we're going gonna eatsoon.
Yeah, because it's not alwaysthat easy to get a good old
campfire going right.

TJ (13:11):
That's true.
So yeah, feel it.
So who does this with you?
I know you've got one partnerwho's always with you.

Gez (13:14):
Want to talk about that a little bit uh, yeah, I'm
assuming you're talking aboutsuper Leeds here super Leeds yes
sir, yeah, yeah.
So he's actually also anotherreason as to how I did get into
it, I suppose.
So prior to josh passing andprior to me having a dog, um
Leeds, coming along, we'd bemore likely to fly somewhere to

(13:35):
go see it, right?
So whether we go skiing inColorado, whether you go to
Niagara Falls, you know Canadafor a little bit or even back to
England, we'd be more likeFlorida, we'd be more likely to
fly there, and that becomes alittle harder to do with a dog
regardless, right, right.
And there's been very, very,very few days from the first day
that I got him to this that I,you know, we haven't been

(13:56):
together.
Yeah, right, early on, maybe,but but rare, rare, does it even
occur now?
Um, so, yeah, he's, he's alwayswith me wherever we go,
whatever we do.
Beyond that, though, I'm prettymuch a solo hiker.
There's maybe a half dozencloser friends where I can't

(14:16):
think of a single time wherewe've all hiked together.
I've never group hiked.
I've never been in a group ofmore than five or six people in
one go to hike.
I've got no real desire forthat either.
There are plenty of people muchmore qualified than me to lead
group hikes anyway.
But, yeah, there's five or sixfolks and, to name drop, a

(14:41):
couple of good friends, andsometimes this might include,
you know, a partner or plus oneor whatever.
But, um, I've got a good friendof mine, chad Bay, with chasing
the Ozarks on on Facebook,instagram and and and Tik TOK,
um, we formed quite a quite afun partnership over the course
of time and we'll get togetheronce in a while.
Um another, um, another one,scott, with our own backyard.

(15:02):
I think I'd mentioned himbefore.
Yeah, um, scott, scott likes tofloat as well and I've tagged
along once or twice with thoseguys.
It's fun, um, and then, uh,probably, uh, the the least
celebrated, but honestly quite aguy.
Dennis Gunderson Okay, Ihaven't heard that name.
Yeah, I heard that name.
Yeah, he's a little older thanme, he's got a few years on me,
but, boy, he's quite the hiker.

(15:23):
There's a famous Tim Ernst bookcalled the Arkansas Waterfall
Guide.
Right, and he is one of but twoor three people that I'm aware
of that have actually completedthe book.

Daniel (15:36):
That's a feat there.
We have that book and it'simpressive yeah.

Gez (15:39):
I've still got probably 20 to do on that, but I'll never do
, I'll never be able to completeit because some of those are in
buffalo national river, in thepark and the trails are
notoriously not pet friendly.
So yeah, you can float withyour with it, with a dog, but
but there's very few trails youcan actually hike and
unfortunately that kind of nixes.
A few for me and I'm not tooworried about it though at this
stage.
But yeah, dennis is dennis.

(16:01):
Gunnison has, uh, accomplishedquite a few of them, but them.
But then there's a couple ofthe folks I want to throw out
there as well, where JeffJohnson is a good friend of mine
and he's more likely when I gohike with him.
The longest hike I've ever donein a day in terms of miles and
elevation change, was with thisguy in the Horsehead Lake area.
Boy, rugged terrain.

(16:23):
When you're coming down you'reliterally sliding down and when
you're going, when you're hikingup the hill, you know you're.
You're talking some seriousgrade here um, where's that at?

TJ (16:34):
I haven't heard of horsehead lake.
I don't guess.

Gez (16:36):
um, north of clarksville okay, a little north of
clarksville, horse horseheadlake lake is a is a lake, a
small lake, um, and just on thenorth side of that which would
be the southern edges now of theOzarks, is some of the roughest
terrain in the state, some ofthe steepest terrain too.
You're teaching me stuff Ididn't know.
Yeah, it's fun to go there once,but after that you might be

(16:58):
questioning how much fun youactually had the first, I've
been there a few times, but,yeah, jeff Johnson, he knows
that area pretty well and I'vehiked a couple of spots there
with him.
But then, last but not least,and a guy that I I don't want to
miss out if we're, if we'retalking names here would be um
travis, my friend travis hawk,who he contributes to to our
social media pages andabsolutely does a banner job in

(17:21):
helping us maintain.
We created this um, um, googlemap of waterfalls in arkansas.
Going back in in time, Istarted this a while ago and,
and, um, anyway, travis is theone most likely to keep that
maintained with any places hegets to go see.
Um, so, uh, yeah, travis and Iunfortunately don't get to hike
very often together, once ortwice a year, but uh, but yeah,

(17:44):
Leeds loves him and and we havea good time always.
So, and if I'm missing anybodythat that I didn't name drop
here and they happen to belistening to this podcast, I'm
apologizing in advance.
You know, yeah, we can?
we can throw their names inthere later yeah, credits at the
end for sure if I, if I'mmissing anybody.
But yeah, it's again.
It's rare for me to.
You know, nine times out of tenI'm a solo hiker.

(18:06):
Um, anybody that I do hike withit's a little bit more of a
planned event.
You know, we know it's coming aweek or so from now.
Um, there might be three orfour from friends that tag along
with that, but I don't, I can'trecall ever having been a part
of a group of more than maybesix.

TJ (18:21):
For any said hike, so it's just not for me.
Yeah, so it sounds like you hadenjoyed hiking, a little bit of
kayaking or canoeing, that kindof thing.
Waterfalling, waterfalling iskind of what you're known for.
Was there like a firstwaterfall that you would say you
like kind of set the tone forthe rest of your trips?
Um, maybe one in particularthat stands out.
I'm trying to think so.

Gez (18:42):
So, yeah, waterfall chasing is probably what I would be
better known for, but it's soseasonal yeah you know, it only
really accounts for four or fivemonths of the the year.
Good deluges aside, randomdeluges in the summer aside,
right um, possibly the, the, andwe'd been to a few and I
honestly couldn't even put a anorder to these.

(19:04):
So as a family we'd been.
We've been to places like cedarfalls yeah and and?
um, where would be another one?
Um, little missouri falls, umking's river falls.
As a family we've been to threeor four fallen waterfalls
probably that were maybe easier,better known or whatever, and
then at various times of theyear, probably more likely to

(19:26):
have been in the summer, youknow, we can go splash around in
it as well.
Yeah, there isn't a specificone that would come to mind that
would say this started it forme.
The one that comes to mind thatsays I started going deeper was
probably Richland, the TwinFalls of Richland, uh, the twin
foals of richland in the richardwilderness area.

Daniel (19:48):
You've been there, right ?
Yeah, we camp around there andstuff, so yeah yeah, yeah,
richland is an area.

Gez (19:52):
I've been there so many times since.
I mean I love it.
There's so many yeah so manyspots to go see, um, but yeah,
I've got a, I've got a funnystory that goes with that, and
so this would be maybe November2018.
So it would be one of the earlyones on right.
Okay, um, and just like anyhiker and, by the way, again, if

(20:12):
I haven't said it yet, I'msaying it again, there are
plenty more qualified than me totell you how to hike, right,
you're more qualified than I am.
But I'd planned this to visitRichland Twin Falls, the Twins
of Richland, from hiking in fromthe top.
There's multiple ways toactually go to this fall, but

(20:33):
this particular route that I wastaking passes by three or four
of the smaller falls along theway, and it has to be October,
early November, maybe rightEarly in the morning, and we
start hiking on in.
And back then I always had Leedson a leash because he'd chase
deer, no matter what right, nomatter what.

(20:53):
You know.
It took me a good couple ofyears to get him out of that
where I could, you know, keephim with me anyway.
He starts barking, he startspulling, starts barking some
more, and I was really pullingand I ended up having to sit
down holding on with both handsthrough his leash.
Actually, I used this.
Will this?
Will you get a giggle out ofthis?
I actually used to use hammockstraps as leashes when I hiked
with him.

(21:13):
Yeah, I'd have to.
I'd have the other one in mybackpack and the one, and and
the reason for that is just incase I ever needed it I've got
20 more feet of some level ofrope.
Yeah, does that make sense?
That's why.
Um, so he's actually on thishammock strap anyway.
We sit down and he's stillbarking, barking, barking, and I
yell at him.
I'm like, I'm like what theheck Leeds?
Are we you seeing deer overhere, or something?

(21:34):
And out of nowhere I hear this.
Of course he doesn't see anydeer.
He scared them all off now andI'm like what, what, what?
Then I'm looking around, right,and uh, then I hear this I'm up
here, is that you god?
So I'm looking up and arm comesout.
There's a guy sitting up in atree, yeah, like a tree, stand

(21:54):
right, um, facing away from me,facing, and I felt real bad
because this is like 7, 7, 30 inthe morning.
That guy had to have been upthere since two.
He had to have, you know,loaded up on the deer corn,
right.
That's why he was there.
He was hunting deer, right, andwe've just now completely
destroyed his morning.
So man you know, I'm thinking,man, he might be shooting me
here with whatever he's got upthere.

(22:15):
Anyway, we make friends and weget past that moment and I'm
hiking on and uh, just as I'mgoing past him, he said well,
just, he says to me uh, just tolet you know, I've got a friend
a few hundred yards down thehill you're about to go down.
Just in case you know so, so hedoesn't scare you as well,
right, right.
So there, I am looking up atevery tree as I'm going down

(22:35):
there.
Where's this guy at, where'sthis guy at?
And then, out of nowhere, guystands up, full ghillie, suit on
right, completely moss andeverything on, and he starts
waving at me.
I mean God, my heart kind ofsank for the second time,
because here's me looking up andall of a sudden there's this.
You know they?

Daniel (22:53):
Second time, because here's me looking up and all of
a sudden there's this.
You know, They've been planningfor this?

Gez (22:56):
Yeah, they've been planning for it and again we totally
destroyed their day.
But man, I'm off topic.

TJ (23:00):
No, no, no, that's great.
We love the stories.

Gez (23:03):
The question was is there one that really started it for
you?
I suppose that would be it andI'd leave it on this note.
I'd leave that question on thisnote.
Hey, for me, um, it wasprobably easier to go to the
easy to find falls alongestablished or state park trails
, right, no matter how long theywere, they're easy to follow.

(23:23):
When you start going um, andtwin falls at richland now
depend on which route you take.
There's a really easy to followdoesn't mean it's an easy hike,
but it's an easy to follow.
Doesn't mean it's an easy hike,but it's an easy to follow
trail, right.
Coming in from the top is muchmore bushwhack, which gets to
the point of.
For me, as a bushwhack hikerand again, there are plenty,
much more experienced than melike the first half mile that

(23:47):
you ever do feels like 10.
You're looking at your GPSdevice or whatever how far have
I come?
And then you can't believeyou've only come that far, right
.
But as time goes by, you gofrom a half mile to a three
quarter mile, to a mile.
Your comfort zone expands.
Right, you know what I mean.
And then, before you know it,you're cool with.
You, know you've learned how tooperate your phone apps or your

(24:09):
GPS device.
You've learned how to do thesethings and, um, you've learned
not to worry about time so much.
You know, because all thatplays on it did.
For me, anyway it was.
It was something that I washighly conscious off.
Am I doing this fast enough?
Am I too fat?
You know all those type things.
Now I don't worry about it, but, um, but yeah, that was
probably.
I mean, that route might'vebeen a six or seven mile round

(24:34):
trip route.
I must've done some that wereonly a mile or two.
All in that were bushwhackhikes before that, but that's
the one I remember because ofthose two funny stories.
You know the two guys thatscared the heck out of me.

TJ (24:47):
Yeah, that would have scared me too.
I'm a hunter and you know, Idon't know.
It's just hard to see somebodyin deer stand.
Oh well, well, you're notlooking up.

Daniel (24:56):
You're looking at the ground so you don't trip usually
.
Yeah, I've been in the stand.

TJ (24:59):
in many places I had people walk right under me and never
know I'm there, you know, and soI get it.
I would've been scared too.

Gez (25:04):
Oh man, absolutely scared the crap out of me.
Altercation it was, it was cool.
Have you ever been to thethunder cannon falls on cecil
cove loop?
I haven't, and the reason forthat is it's not pet friendly.
Oh okay yeah, I do, I doremember something I thought
horses were on that trail,though I feel like horse tracks
were on that one yeah, they,they might be so, for whatever

(25:26):
the reason, uh, and I I followthis rule of thumb, by the way
so, um, national forest land, soozarks and francis and the wash
star national forests, they arethe most pet friendly, um, with
very few pet limitations.
You know, there's next to noleash laws and I much prefer
elites to be off a leash.
Yeah, um, then beyond it, right, yeah, um, state parks would be

(25:52):
next.
They'd be middle ground wherethey're likely to be pet
friendly, but they have to be ona leash.
And again, I'm fine with that.
I, you know no arguments aboutit, because not everybody's a
dog person and not everybody'sdog is behaved well Right right.
Um, and I actually, on that note, I wouldn't say Leeds is
absolutely the best ever trained.
He's great for me.
He does what I need him to dowhen we go hiking, but don't

(26:15):
expect him to be doing tricks,you know, rolling over and all
these type things when we're not, but when we're out and about
exploring or or floatingwhatever, yeah, he's perfect.
I've got no problems.
That's awesome.
Um, but the national parks arethe least pet friendly of all,
where there's only maybe goshI'm throwing out there there
might be two or three trails forthe buffalo national river in

(26:35):
the park that are pet friendly.
The rest they're not.
Now there might be a lot ofhorse trails, but but, um,
that's a rule of thumb I live by.
So whilst we float the buffalo,often, that's fine, it's,
that's allowed.
You know, I don't get to hikeit much because if he can't go,
I don't go.

TJ (26:52):
Yeah yeah, I get that.
I honestly didn't know thatthat was a thing.
I figured that pretty much anytrail a human could hike down a
dog could be on.

Daniel (26:59):
Yeah, no, tj's not a dog person.

TJ (27:01):
I am not.
Yeah, that's, a lot of peoplewill give me flack for that, but
the reason is I grew up at thatpoint I was just like I'm done
with it.
We had one more.
My wife and I got married.
That was a weenie dog and shejust couldn't be trained for
anything, and so it's kind ofleft some bad experiences, bad

(27:22):
taste in my mouth.
If you want to say that, yeah,I get it.
But now I will say that I'vebeen recently I've been on like
a goose hunt and some otherthings where there's been some
really well-trained dogs, and Ican appreciate a well-trained
dog.
You know to me if I was goingto have one personally, I feel
like it needs to serve a utility, you know yeah yeah.
But I get you know, especiallyfor, like, if you're single and

(27:45):
need, you know, want somecompanionship, I get that a
well-trained dog could be athing.
It's just not for me.
I've got five kids and so youknow a dog is pretty much like a
kid and I don't need.
I don't need one more.

Gez (27:56):
No, that's, I totally relate.
I mean how I ended up.
So I'm, I've always been a dogguy, right, you know, I'm always
, I'm pet friendly, I love dogs,but I it had been a long time
since I had had a dog, simplyfrom living a life.
So, as a business travelerbefore you know my own show even
, you know, flying, being gonefive or six days at a time, what

(28:25):
do you do with your dog?
Right Contact.
So.
So for that reason, I, I, I, foryears didn't have one, and it
was only by virtue of been anempty nester where they, you
know, my kids had all grown outand my girls were saying, dad,
you got to get a dog, you get toget a dog.
That's how that kind of kind ofcame about.
Um, again, he's, you know he's.
He does everything I need himto do.
You know he'll come back when Ineed him to come back and and

(28:46):
when I'm calling him kind ofthing or whistling him, and you
know he'll sit, he'll stay, he's.
Rarely will he ever be morethan a few hundred feet away
from me.
Anyway, you know, when hereally realizes I'm not there,
he's probably, I'm probably his,his therapy, yeah okay, right,
yeah um, so that's how it'sevolved, but um, yeah, we just
don't go anywhere.

TJ (29:07):
I get it, I say everybody's, so you know yeah, yeah, when
you have any advice, like whenyour own trail, anything that
people do that don't like dogsthat irritate you.
Yeah, yeah.

Gez (29:17):
So, firstly, I've been on let's use a couple of scenarios.
I've been on state park trailswith my dog on a leash, when
other people don't have theirdog on a leash.
Okay Right, that'sdisrespectful, you know.

TJ (29:34):
Abide by the rules, kind of thing yeah.

Gez (29:35):
I mean, there's a not everybody is a dog person.
Some people have got badexperiences from, from dogs.
You know traumatic ones.
Maybe they've been attacked byone, you know there's a whole
bunch of reasons on on thatlevel.
So I think if you're, if you'regoing to, you know, hike with
your, with your dog, at leastfollow the rules Right.
That's good.
And then the second thing is is, if the rules are you've got to

(29:58):
pick up after your dog, thenpick up after your dog.

Daniel (30:01):
That drives me crazy.
When people don't.

Gez (30:07):
Right, so so, um, you know again when we're off
bushwhacking in the middle ofnowhere no, big deal.
I'm going to tell you I've neverpicked up after my dog, cause I
couldn to tell you I've neverpicked up after my dogs.
I couldn't even tell you wherehe went to go poop exactly, but
if he did on the state parktrail, then yeah, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna do the right thing, youknow so.
So I think that the um, thecoexistence there needs to be.
The rules are there for areason, whether you like them or

(30:27):
you don't.
And if you don't like them, youdon't have to be there yourself
, do you?
Yeah, but if you've made thatdecision to to hike with your
pet, follow the rules.
And if you, equally, have madea decision to hike a pet
friendly trail, but don't haveone gotcha yeah right, that was
your decision too, I agree, youknow so.
So, um, you know, be tolerant ofit and um, one thing that that,

(30:50):
um, you know we always do is we.
We give way to any hiker, right, so we'll do it, even if they
have a dog, right.
So whether they don't really dolike well, I'll just pull him
off trail, we'll sit in the bushfor a minute while whoever's
hiking the opposite way to us,they can get past, even if
they've got a dog.
We just do it.
You know, he's well trainedinto that.

(31:10):
Now he knows when we're comingup on people, it's time to scoot
to the left, right and and sitand wait until they passed.
And and I think that's big too,because, you know, hiking with
your pet doesn't mean to saythat your, your pet, needs to be
brushing right up against theknees of somebody coming the
other way because they might notbe pet friendly, right?
So there's, I think there's alittle bit of um respect due on,

(31:31):
yeah, on that side as well.

TJ (31:33):
That being said, I don't think I would have any problem
with you in leeds on the trailthen you know, yeah, but it's
those people you know, I guessthat you know you're out there
and the dogs are all over thekids and you know crazy stuff
like that, you know, and my kidswant to pet dogs and I get that
, but if not, you know, kind ofkeep your distance.
That's one thing we've talkedabout, though.
Addressing, like in the podcast,is you know, we hunt in the
Ozark National Forts sometimeand up there you may have people

(31:57):
who are hiking, you may havepeople who are on the side by
side and you know all thesedifferent things that people are
doing in the National Forest,and it's just good to have
somebody like you who's showingrespect, no matter what it is,
and I think that's what we haveto be more conscious of, as
outdoors people, no matter whatwe're doing hunting, hiking, you
know just to be respectful ofthe people around us where we're
at, so everybody can enjoy thespace yeah, absolutely.

Gez (32:17):
I think it goes for horses too.
It's funny we mentionedrichland as well.
That's a very horsey trail area, right, um, and we've often
been out bushwhacking and thencome across some level of horse
trail or though the ozarhighlands trail.
It runs the section that runsthrough it where we'll we'll
meet up with horse people thatare coming through.
Whenever I see him coming, he'son his leash.
I will put him even though hemight have been free roman to

(32:39):
that point, I'll call him backand put him on his leash,
because the last thing I'd wanthim to do is spook a horse,
right then.
I guess the second last thingI'd want is for the horse to be
that spook that it kicks him.
Yeah, right, so you know my ownself-concerning interests there
.
Come to play for one, but foranother would be it's not just
dogs, right?
I mean, you know there's areason horse trails exist and

(33:02):
whenever we meet horsey folks,I'll put them on his leash right
away.
Yeah, yeah, super good.

Daniel (33:07):
How do you find out if the dog can go on the trail?
I guess I'm kind of new to that, I guess.

Gez (33:21):
We have, you know, a little miniature labradoodle now that
we take her is.
Do they list that on the trails?
Usually, yeah, yes, well, again, um, national forest land, it's
pretty much, you're fine.
Yeah, um, the more populartrails, though that you'll all
trails as an app would be a goodone if you're second guessing
yourself, right, because that'sthat's fairly good with regard
to what is pet friendly and whatisn't.
Um, but in the buffalo nationalrivers you'd mention
thunderbird, where you, there'sa big old sign before you even

(33:42):
get there this is no pets, nopets no pets, and we we saw that
when we were there, but thenyou see these pets coming
through.

Daniel (33:48):
So see, I disagree yeah I disagree with that venomously.

Gez (33:52):
Yeah, I do too.
I'm not going to tell you thatI haven't been on a non-pet
friendly trail with my dog,right, because it's happened,
right.
But if I know it to be not petfriendly, I won't go.
Yeah, I might stumble across itwhile I'm hiking, not realizing

(34:15):
um, and the only the only oneactually, that I totally,
totally just broke the rules wasum, twin falls or triple falls
near camp, or, yeah, about ahalf mile each way.
Where I'm, you know, here here Iam.
I'm putting my hand up to say Isaw the sign that said no pets,
but we were the only peoplethere.
There's just us in that parkinglot, right, man, I've come all

(34:35):
the way down here.
I didn't know it wasn't petfriendly.
Come on, Leeds, let's go dothis.
It's a quarter mile each way.
We'll be in and out in 15minutes, right?
But other than you know,directly answering your question
, state, state parks probablywill be pet friendly trails and
they'll be well signed andyou'll see it.
National parks absolutely willbe totally signed, but the

(34:57):
national forest lands, you'repretty much fine, yeah.

TJ (35:00):
Okay, so how do you plan your next adventure?
Like I know you said,waterfalls are seasonal, and so
are you like watching radar andstuff for rainfall, oh yeah.

Gez (35:10):
I think every waterfall chaser kind of does that right.
Um, I've been known to, andbeen very successful with trying
to put myself in an epicenterof where I think the rain's
gonna best land, um, and thenjust waited it out overnight for
the storm to to roll through.
Yeah, you know.

(35:31):
And then I know I've only gotto go five miles this way, 10
miles that way, whatever, towhere the best spots are.
But yeah, I mean a lot of youknow.
And then I know I've only gotto go five miles this way, 10
miles that way, whatever, towhere the best spots are.
But yeah, I mean a lot of youknow.
Unfortunately, I'm in asituation where it doesn't
matter to me necessarily if it'sa Tuesday or a Friday or Sunday
when the rain lands, right, um,I can plan around that.
So, um, if it's not going to beso, using the summer as an

(35:53):
example, I'm more likely to befloating than hiking.
For one, it's too hot to hike.
I don't want to deal with thatand all the cobwebs and what
have you, but very little waterin the creeks.
But in terms of planning out,the start point for me is I'll
look at the radar, you knowwhat's the rain forecast.
But before I actually go, I'llat and I've I couldn't remember

(36:15):
um.
I've got several little um appsand websites that I can use with
regard to the where the rainactually landed right, okay,
national weather service has gotone where you know there's two
inches here and four inchesthere, and whatever eight inches
over here.
So, um, that's kind of how I Iwill go about it you know?

TJ (36:33):
yeah, I might have seen one or two youtube videos where you
went to a fall and there werethere was no water yeah yeah, oh
, for sure, yeah, yeah it's abummer when that happens.

Gez (36:41):
Yeah one of the uh, one of the best stories actually.
So I've already name dropped umchad, with chasing the ozarks,
and dennis the guy that hikedthis, hiked all uh.
The tim ernes falls right.
Well, one of the Tim ErnstFalls is a place called
Punchbowl Falls also in thegeneral area of Richland, right,
and that was still on Dennis'slist.

(37:04):
Okay, so, dennis, I'm going backthree years maybe now.
Right, that was still on hislist.
He hadn't been there yet, so itsnowed.
It might've been late Octoberor early November or something,
but it was an early snow and Iget on the phone.
Chad lives in Joplin.
Dennis happened to be in.
He lives in Oklahoma but he hasa.

(37:24):
He's got a cabin that he comesand stays at in the Jasper area.
I was, like Chad, dennis stillgot to go to Punchbowl Falls and
look, it's going to be snowing,so we're already drooling about
we get some snowy waterfallpictures right between us.
There has to be thousands ofhiking miles of experience,
right, thousands of hours ofchecking the weather.

(37:47):
Not one of us thought to figureto look at precipitation
because it's snowing and yeahright, well, here's the reality.
So you've been to PunchbowlFalls now To look at
precipitation.

Daniel (37:53):
Because it's snowing and it's just winter.

Gez (37:54):
Yeah, we're just right.
Well, here's the reality.
So you've been to PunchbowlFalls man, oh, yeah, yeah.
So if you went from thetrailhead you'll know it's about
three and a half miles each,three miles each way, maybe,
right?
It's descent, descent, descent,descent all the way there,
right?
Well, there we are descendingthrough the light snow at the
top, then a mile and a half innext to no snow, and then two

(38:17):
and a half miles in no snowwhatsoever, and then you're
finally at Punchbowl Falls andit's no fall, right?

TJ (38:26):
So with all that experience, we kind of yeah, so it even
happens to the experts.
Yeah, we were just idiots thatday.

Gez (38:33):
Have you been?

Daniel (38:33):
back though, since it's a pretty.

Gez (38:34):
Yeah, I've been there a few times.
Yeah, we were just idiots.
That day.

TJ (38:36):
Have you been back, though, since it's a pretty good
experience?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've beenthere a few times.
Yeah, yeah, it's really cool.
Cool, have you?
You said you were like youwould target those rainy areas.
Yeah, have you ever like spenta dangerous night in the van
amidst a storm?

Gez (38:46):
Yeah, there was one time, so I so I've been caught in it a
couple of times too, by the way.
Okay, but a couple of years ago, moccasin gap trailhead, just
off.

TJ (38:56):
I don't know where it is.
I've heard of moccasin gapseveral times.
I'm not sure if I know exactlywhere it's at.

Gez (39:00):
Yeah, probably 25 minutes north of Dover, okay, yeah, and
man, I hear the hail coming.
It's like beating on a roof,like a drum, you know, and and
side swaying from from side toside.
I'm thinking, man, sometimes notnot good here it turns out that
that was a night where, um, atornado touched down a mile or
two or whatever, however far thecrow would fly in.

(39:23):
I think that was treat, umsmall tornado, that that kind of
kick button in in the treatarea.
But yeah, we've, we've donethat often enough.
But then on the trail we'vebeen caught.
Um, this also was with Chad andDennis.
Um, a couple of years ago,paradise falls and if you've
ever heard of it and we're I'veheard of it, never been there.
Um, I think the reason forgoing there Dennis had been, but

(39:48):
, uh, chad and I had been out,hiked a couple of places he
hadn't been to, and it was, youknow, pitiful, like we were at
these falls, like thinking whata waste of time.
Now it was time to go meetDennis and it started raining
and it rained and it rained, andit rained and it rained.
I can show you pictures whenwe're done at the end of this
Sure yeah.
Where, literally, we were hikingto Paradise Falls and you have

(40:11):
to do a little.
You're kind of walking somewhatthrough the creek in places,
right, it's up to your ankles.
On the way back out, it's up toyour waist, like that's how,
that's how you know how much itwas.
It was kind of funny becauseDennis is the shortest out of
the three of us and we'd sendDennis in first, like across the
creek.
You know we'd be gauging thewater on that, based on Dennis.
That's funny is but uh, butyeah, been in the right place

(40:38):
right time a few times, um,including cedar falls, actually.
Um, I've caught cedar fallshere at marlton several times,
having an absolute raging day.

TJ (40:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's easy to get to too yeah, I grew up at
that one, so not at the falls,but you know that's, that's
where we went as kids was yeah,edgy cedar falls all the good
stuff so tj said y'all metbecause of your van.

Daniel (40:54):
What kind of part does that play in your adventures?

Gez (40:57):
well, it's camping on the fly, right, yeah, I mean, uh, so
it's decked down for you, yeah,well, yeah, you know it's, as
time's gone by, I don't really,I just maintain it loosely, I
guess is the best way to put it.
But what started out is just anair mattress and a and a and a
cooler.
You know it's somewhere to parkup, really, and I was for
floating, probably that was, youknow, just to be able to, you

(41:20):
know, stop the night and nothave to carry so much stuff or
what have you.
Um, but it's, you know it's alittle bit more tricked out than
that, but it's not at all fancy.
If I, if I, had a do-over inlife, it would be, um, to have
not what had happened.
What had happened is I'd, I'd,I'd go out for a weekend, right,
and what I've?

(41:41):
At night, I'm lying backthinking God, wouldn't it be
cool if I had this?
Wouldn't it be cool if I didthat, right?
And so somehow, the next monthor so, I'd end up adding this
little bit to it.
I'm no handyman, don't get me,you know it's, I'm not at all
skilled in in that level, butI'd figure out a way to just add
, like a shelf here or a littlesink there or something you know

(42:01):
, and it kind of worked out.
But if I had to do over itwould be start to finish, you
know, yeah, empty and just gofor it so if somebody wants to
donate a van to an arkansaswaterfowler, you're, you're good
for that.
Yeah, yeah, absolutelyFour-wheel drive much preferred.
I found myself in a rough spotonce or twice.

TJ (42:17):
I might have heard some of those stories, yeah yeah, that's
awesome.

Daniel (42:22):
Do you have any bucket list falls you're after?

Gez (42:25):
You know, not really.
When I saw you guys thinking ofthat, I was struggling with it.
I think I've I've hemmed inhollow, I suppose is the most
famous or one of the most famousright, because it's the tallest
and I've not been um and Ihaven't been because it's not

(42:45):
pet friendly yeah right.
So, um, maybe that one, justbecause everybody else has been,
but I haven't Right, so maybethat hits the list.
But beyond that, I think for meit's, um, I've been to some,
I've been to some really coolplaces and I've managed to be
there at the right time for ittoo, for, you know, great
ambience, so I can't really pullone off the top of my head.

(43:08):
That would be.
You know, haven't been in that,I don't.
I can't tell you which onewould be the next one I would go
to either, cause that's whereindependent, right, yeah, I'll
go back to this map.
So, um, what started out?
Uh, basically I, I compiled alist of falls.
I'd been to, um, in one coloron a Google map, falls I wanted

(43:32):
to go to that were largely allthe Tim Ernst falls is another
color on the map.
Okay, right, that's kind ofwhere it started.
And a third color was go backto falls.
So I'd been there right, eitherwrong time, you know, before I
knew what the heck I was doing,but I'd like to go back.
I understood this map perfectly,but I'd get friends ask me, you

(43:54):
know, randomly on a Saturdaymorning at nine where I'm just
about to start hiking hey,where's the water going to be
running today?
Where should I go?
So I'd send them this map andit wouldn't mean much to them
because it wasn't very organized, right.
So I started organizing thismap and added a whole bunch more
to it from either worldwaterfall databases or, you know
, rick rick's blog is is a is agreat, great resource for

(44:16):
anybody.
So I'd just be adding these inand different color code,
different, different colors intoit.
Um, I guess, explaining all thatto you by saying now, I don't
know where I'm going to the nextfall because it's going to be
rain dependent, but because ofwhat you know where I've been,
what I've seen, and I use my ownmap as much as anybody else

(44:36):
wants to use it.
It's out there.
It's a free resource, right,like I've got five or six others
in that area.
You bet you, if I'm going to goto see this one, wherever this
one is next, then I'll pull offseeing next few of these a few
while I'm there.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, and that was the purposeof the creation.
I found myself with the withtimmerance book excellent book,
by the way, you know, foranybody that's ever listened to

(44:57):
this, um, it's, it's a fantasticresource.
Um, whilst it's a few years oldnow, what's changed in in the
world is, where timmerance mightindicate that a gps is required
, to me you don't need a GPS foranything in this day and age
because your phone can do that.
Right, you know there are appsfor that.

(45:18):
You can download the apps.
You know some are fancier thanothers to make it work.
So, you know, don't be governedby a GPS anymore.
But some of the information,whilst it is dated, doesn't
change the fact that it's agreat, great resource.
But you know, know, I guess thebest way I can put it is there
are those that believe thatthose are the only 200

(45:41):
waterfalls in the state ofarkansas.
Yeah, right, there, there aretrue disciples to this book.
That if, if tim ernst hasn'tput it out there, it's not there
.
But it's not there, right?
And uh, you know, tim ernst isa great man, a very legendary
Arkansas explorer.
That's, um, not just forwaterfalls but for hikes and for
what he's done and, um, youknow, on on many levels, all his

(46:01):
books, um, but ultimately, youknow, for me, when I realized
I'm driving past all these otherfalls to find this one in Tim's
book, I found myself doing,let's say, an eight hour drive
when really I could have donehalf the drive and seen three
times as many falls.
Yeah, and that's how I kind ofyeah, that's how I'd plan it out
now.

TJ (46:20):
So you mentioned to us, kind of off camera, that you had
been to private falls and fallsthat people don't know about,
those included.
How many falls do you thinkyou've seen in Arkansas?

Gez (46:29):
Um, I did keep up for it for a while, maybe to about 300.
Well, you know, so up to aboutmaybe 300.
I probably stopped evenbothering counting, you know,
going back maybe three years ormore.
If I was guessing probably fiveor six, 600.
Well, you know, falls dependent, yeah, I'm thinking here now.

(46:53):
I mean ultimately you.
You know it was about a countfor me to begin with because I
was trying to be honest.
The motivation for me was okay,there's 200 or so falls in tim
ernst's book.
I know I can't go to all ofthem because my dog can't go to
him, so how do I get to 200?
That's how that started.
All right, where, where can Ifind these other falls that
aren't his book to?
To go in there, and I just keptit going for a while.
But, yeah, it's a fair fewhundred is the way to go.

(47:18):
Now for the private propertyfalls or anywhere that I've been
asked to not disclose, right,it's like sensitive or whatever.
Disclose, right it's.
You know, it's like sensitiveor whatever.
So common misperception ofperhaps me, but most definitely
our social media pages is weshow everybody everything.

(47:44):
Yeah, our pages, our maps, um,that you couldn't with a little
bit of effort, by Googling it orbuying the book or, you know,
world waterfall database.
There's nothing on that mapthat is unique to us.
We created it.
Somebody has been there firstand already documented it.

(48:05):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, in the event of um,private property and and things
like that, I don't even showyou the picture that I went
there, so you wouldn't even knowthat.
If that I've been, all we'vereally created in our social
media is, is, if we're going toshow you the picture, we're also
going to give you ways to findit.

(48:26):
Yeah, right, should you chooseto go.

TJ (48:28):
You know if that's.
If so, if there's a video onYouTube of you doing a fall,
then there's a way to get thereyeah, absolutely you want to
tell us a little bit about that,like maybe where people can
find you and look at thosevideos and that sort of thing
yeah, so on social media,facebook we're largest, and that
would be waterfalls in Arkansasand other cool places.

Gez (48:49):
Facebook's also a place where you can, as far as social
media goes, you can put moreinformation right in the
captions so you could search thepage either by the photo albums
that are in there or the pinpost at the top.
We've got our map thread in itand there's two or three
different maps of waterfalls inArkansas.

(49:09):
There's the big one that's gotabout 800-900 falls, I think on
it now.
There's a kid friendly fall mapthat's got about 800 900 falls,
I think on it now.
Um, there's a kid-friendly fallmap that's got about 100 falls
on it.
That's good that they're thesame waterfalls as on the big
map.
It's just you're looking at,you don't have to look at all
yeah, that's good for peoplelike me with kids tag along yeah
, yeah, I mean really that's allthe falls.
That would be um about a mile orless each way to hike, so 20 to

(49:32):
30 minutes each way.
On the high end.
Nothing would be sustained,difficult grades or obstacles,
and all on a trail to followright and so many of them are
kind of roadside or just a fewsteps For Instagram users and
TikTok followers.
Where Instagram it's waterfallsin AR and it's the same for

(49:53):
that on TikTok.

TJ (49:57):
We have a link tree in our bio where you'll find the maps
in the link tree in our bio andwe'll try to link to that from
our podcast description andstuff too, so people can find it
.

Gez (50:06):
And if you're looking for it's been a while since I've,
since I've done I put moreeffort into youtube videos when
I make a video for a hike.
If I've done that waterfallhike in the last three or four
years and made a video, Iprobably don't, you know, I'll
wait till I'm it's an old enoughvideo to work through.
And again, yeah, um, but themost information on any

(50:26):
waterfall that I've been to willbe in youtube and that will be
under jazz ro Rogers and in thedescription section.
The hyperlinks will take you.
Here's the link to thetrailhead so you can drive right
there.
Here's the link to download mytrack for it If you wish to
follow it.
Here's a link for the waypoints.

TJ (50:43):
Yeah, as I was looking at the YouTube videos, I could see
all that.
There was a lot of informationthere so I appreciate that.
That's yeah, you know you weretalking about how respectful you
are with your dog and stuff ontrails and stuff.
Another thing that I reallylike about what you do is that
you're leave no trace.
You want to kind of expound onwhat that means to you Leave no
trace as a hiker.

Gez (51:04):
Leave no trace in general is simply nothing but leave
nothing but footprints.
Yeah, right, you know, takewhat you brought and more if you
can.
Right, you know, it kind ofties in with a couple of
conversations we'd be havingbefore, before we started here.
Absolutely, we'll take out more, more trash where possible.
Right, because where possibleis a, you know, sometimes a

(51:27):
conundrum.
Right, you can only carry somuch.
I will tell you that there, inmy view, carry so much, right?
Um, I will tell you that there,in my view, there is a direct
correlation with how easy awaterfall is to find, gotcha
with the volume of trash.
Yes, there is there, right, soif it's right there, right by
the road, you could put 30 trashcans out by it, but somehow

(51:49):
somebody's still got to go outand pick up the trash.
Yeah, um, my view is because II often get get all bashed by
this, for you know, again, theperception of you've given away
all arkansas secrets and I'lltake that step back again and
say, no, I'm not.
I just happen to have compiledyou know what you'll find on

(52:09):
this website, that book and andand so on yeah, into a map or a
resource and I'll share it withyou.
You just put it in one place.
Yeah, there's nothing specialabout what we've done here.
But then when there are thosewho carry the, we don't need any
more tourists, they only everbring the trash kind of thing.

(52:31):
Here's my view on that, whichdirectly goes to leave no trace.
It's not where you're from,whether you're a local or a
tourist or traveler, it's whoyou are that determines whether
you're going to leave more orpick up more on the way out.
Nope, I've seen plenty of cartires, old refrigerators, old TV

(52:55):
sets, wardrobes full of oldclothes down ravines.
I've seen plenty of car tires,old refrigerators, old TV sets,
wardrobes full of old clothesdown ravines.
I've seen, you know, and Iwon't be the only one anybody
that's kind of hiked off offtrail a little bit will have
seen exactly these things aswell.
Right?
Nobody could ever convince methat.
Let's say, somebody from LittleRock drove two and a half hours
into the Ozarks with a pickupfull of spare tires, right, an
old refrigerator and five bagsof garbage to go dump it down a

(53:16):
ravine, three or four miles downa dirt road in the in the
Ozarks.
Nobody can convince me thatthat that occurred, right?
Yeah, so um, to me it's takeout.
You know, leave no traces isreally leave nothing but
footprints.
Yeah, yeah, you know, leavenothing but footprints.
Yeah, yeah, you know, leave theenvironment as best you can do.
I think that stacking rocksmakes a big difference.

(53:37):
No, no, I don't, but I'm not.
You know, each to their own onthat, but, um, for me, if you,
if you can, if you can take outtrash you know trash as you find
it.
Because, to be fair, there'salso some right where, um, it's
weather related.
It's not.
It's not people inadvertentlyleaving it behind, it's got
washed downstream or blown inhere from the last gully washer

(53:59):
or major event, so that allcounts.
Grand scheme of things is,every little does help, even
though a massive amount of helpin picking up as much trash as
you can possibly find makes anominal difference in the grand
scheme of things.
I mean, you know, I don't knowif you guys are familiar with
the trash islands that are outin the pacific.
You know that are many squaremiles big of you know what the

(54:20):
currents have collected from allover the world, right?
So I don't think we're evergoing to make a dent in that,
but we certainly can make a dentin in our immediate environment
.

Daniel (54:28):
Yeah, yeah yeah, it definitely takes away from it
when you come across trash outthere.
That's why I personally likethe less traveled trails.
Bushwhacking is usuallypreferred because you know not
many people's going to go outthere and if they do, it seems
like they're more mindful of theoutdoors in general.
Yeah, If you're bushwhacking tosomewhere.

Gez (54:47):
I totally agree, Totally agree.
Yeah, you're not the.
So this time of year, actuallywe're approaching it right.
So at the time of recordinghere, here we are in early
February, In my view, kind ofMarch is where the weather,
spring break, let's say be thespringboard of where the weather
is likely to be cooperativeenough for the next two or three

(55:09):
months, where people will go dothat one or two hikes of the
year.
Yeah, Right, Um, what you'rereferring to, Daniel, is is the,
the, the more seasoned, youknow year round hiker, right
where you're right.
They've got that mindset where,hey, if I brought it, I'm
taking it.

(55:35):
It's perhaps the more casualhikers, that don't you know?
Yeah, what about?
You said on your website Ithink, um, be a good human on
trail.
What's that mean to you?
Yeah, I'll be a good human.
So where that really came fromis is is um, I'm trying to think
the best way that would makethis sense without, without
waffling on.
I mean, it's okay to scroll onin this day and age, right?
If you don't agree withsomething on social media, you,
you, you can.
You got a choice, right?

(55:56):
You, you can either leave asupportive comment, or you can
leave a bashing comment, or youcould just scroll on and not be
an antagonizer, right?
So how about?
In life, there are lessantagonizers, more supporters,
less antagonizers.
Donate if you can help, if youcan pray.

(56:19):
If you can't help or donate,just do what you can.
And if you can't do anything,don't have a negative opinion,
unless it's something you reallyfeel the need to mix it up on
and just scroll on.
I could maybe talk for hoursabout that, but I think that's
really the best way to simplifyit, right?
Yeah, I could maybe talk forhours about that, but I think
that's really the best way tosimplify it Right, you know I
think that's perfect.

TJ (56:37):
Yeah, do you have any conservation efforts that you're
a part of?
Like we know that there's a bigthing with the redesignation of
the Buffalo.
Are you involved in any kind ofthat advocacy for Arkansas
waterways or anything like?

Gez (56:47):
that yes and no.
So I'm not directly involvedwith um any.
There are a couple of folksthat we do help um.
So there's a company calledepic glass who are a glass
recycling company where, whereI've I've met this goes back a

(57:09):
couple of years and and we'vevery loosely stayed in touch.
This isn't a deep relationship,but we met with those guys a
couple of years ago to helppromote glass recycling.
Um, a little bit.
Um, there's uh, the, the Iforget the actual name of the
organization, but anorganization has access to um
man, I'll get this name and youcan drop it in the link

(57:31):
afterwards.
It's escaping me right now, butthey have access to the pins on
our maps.
They're the only people we givethat to and what they do is
they look for any waterways thatcould be dams that could be
removed.
You know, to allow natural flowkind of thing.
They're not aggressive inmaking you move dams or whatever
.
But we so we're a little bitconnected.

(57:52):
You know only loosely but thatway around not at all connected,
other than by who I know andwhat we know.
For the buffalo situation, inpart that's because I don't do
crowds.
Yeah, I get that right in part.
The buffalo doesn't make iteasy on me to help them because
it's not dog friendly.
Yeah, um, and in part the our,our, um, my whole approach for

(58:18):
life, never mind just socialmedia is is listen, now I am,
I'm switzerland here, I'mneutral.
I, I, I I'm gonna be void ofpolitics, race, color, religion.
You go down the path and Ithink to have stand your ground
type opinions that you'dpublicize in our social media

(58:40):
could be too divisive.
Yeah, because I get the sidesof everybody's story, depending
on your take.
And actually I think, forwhat's potentially happening in
the Buffalo River area, I thinkit's a different set of
variables depending on whereyou're talking about.
For the Buffalo River area, Ithink it's it's a different set
of variables dependent on whereyou're talking about.
For the river, yeah, right, youknow, you go down to the lower

(59:00):
district where there's not ahouse for miles, it's not going
to affect anybody there.
But you go into the upperdistrict, you know, and and and,
especially in the, when youstart getting to the middle for
Jasper, through what would be StJoe, there's plenty of
townships and small communitiesthat it could affect either side

(59:20):
, right?
So, looking at it from a widerangle, that's another reason we
don't get involved.
We'll support anybody's cause,not just the ones that you're
mentioning.
If it's a worthy cause, wesupport it on our page
regardless.

TJ (59:35):
Yeah, um, just again, we try and avoid all the you know
anything that's antagonistic, goback to swipe on yeah, I think
that goes back to being a goodhuman, honestly, yeah, yeah, so
is there anything you havecoming up that you want to tell
our listeners about?

Gez (59:49):
um depends on where the water flows right when's when's
the rain coming next.
That's what we have coming up.
Um, we honestly, when it's adrier times.
So, by definition, for me, thisis waterfall season.
That we're in it now throughprobably the end of may, right,
maybe we get looking at drag out, but, um, you know, most of the

(01:00:10):
waterfalls at this time of year, every waterfall in arkansas is
very dependent to a largedegree.
But at this time of year, youknow most of the waterfalls.
At this time of year, everywaterfall in Arkansas is very
dependent to a large degree.
But at this time of year, youknow, anywhere from a trickle on
up to a good old flow is goingto depend on how long ago the
last rain was, right.
So what have I got coming up?
Well, it's going to depend onwhere the rain lands.

TJ (01:00:27):
I like that.

Gez (01:00:27):
What I've outgrown, because once upon a time I literally
would, every weekend I'd betrying to find somewhere I
haven't been to yet.
Hence on my map, my go back tolist.
Right, you know, these are theones I went to where, gosh, I
wish I was here when it wasactually flowing, not trickling.
Now I don't put the effort intohiking anywhere if it's just
going to be a trickle.
I've learned, you know, I'velearned.

(01:00:48):
Yeah, so, and it won't be warmenough for me to want to float,
float till probably April anyway.
So so, yeah, it's for our page.
Watch this space.
And in the meantime we'll beshouting out a few country
stores here and there and, youknow, maybe giving some
waterfall routes.
We do that from time to timewhere you know here's five to

(01:01:10):
see in a day, or six to seewhatever.
It might be, right, you know.
So, advanced planning a littlebit for others who might not be
as fortunate as I am and, youknow, been been able to mobilize
at a New York minute.

Daniel (01:01:21):
Yeah, super cool.
Yeah, so you, you mostly dowaterfalls, what, what does
somebody else wanted to getsomething out into the outdoors
and get something going Likeyou've kind of got going, maybe
a hiker or something like that.

Gez (01:01:39):
Do you have any suggestions on how they get that going and
as in, uh, like maybe get afollowers and stuff for the so
creative platform and so on?
Yeah, so, I do get asked thisfrom time to time.
Actually, um, and let me, letme kind of preempt it by saying
my blog, my pages, came aboutbecause my daughter suggested it
.
Right, dad, you should have ablog, you should have a blog,

(01:01:59):
you should have a blog.
You know, go back to where wewere earlier on, where, um, as a
soccer guy, as a soccer coachand been a part of the soccer
community, that was my largestfriend group and all of a sudden
, here's me visiting all thesewaterfalls or sunset views or
you know, hiking bluff lines orsomething, and, um, my girls are

(01:02:21):
saying, dad, you should get ablog.
I think when you do that, youdon't really have.
Certainly it was my experienceyou don't have any level of
expectation, right?
I didn't have a goal for howmany followers.
I didn't.
You know, what's happened isjust happened.
It's been by happenstance.
My advice to anybody would be,if it's your mission to share
your passion, to share whatyou're doing and where you're
going, just go for it.

(01:02:42):
You know, be you.
You know and learn from whatworks and what doesn't.
You know, you'll figure it outover the course of time.
That's kind of what I did.
I'm rarely in pictures, I'musually the guy taking them.
I'm rarely in videos, I'musually the guy taking it and
I'm cool with it that way.
There are others that prefer toyou know, use their

(01:03:02):
personalities.
You know that the to betteridentify it.
So each to their own on it andum, that's you know.
That's my advice with.
I've learned a lot about socialmedia.
With regard to what may work,what may not work, let's be
clear.
Nobody, nobody, nobody, nobodyknows what the algorithms are

(01:03:23):
today, right, yeah.
And if anybody did figure itout today, then the ai
programming and the algorithmshas already changed it for
tomorrow, yeah, right.
So there are those that willsell you classes on.
Hey, do what I did.
Let me share it with you, forpay me $100 or $200 for this
class and I'll show you how togain 10,000 followers.

(01:03:43):
I'd just say contact me, I'llshare with you.
Here's what's worked for me asfar as today.
Right is, what hadn't is how Ilearned from it, if I feel the
need.
But my advice in general foranybody wanting to get into it
and sharing what they do is justput your best foot forward.
Have a good time doing it.

(01:04:03):
Have no expectation.
It's awesome.

TJ (01:04:09):
You know I am a big quotes guy.
I like life advice and stuff,and when we first got together
you talked to me about doubledown.
Tell our listeners about doubledown and what that means to you
.

Gez (01:04:20):
Double down, double down, always.
So would you like me to tellthe full story yeah whatever you
think, all right, I'll go forthis.
So hang with me for a second.
Anybody that's listening to it.
But this is back to the time ofmy son passing, and this was
three or four days now after myson had passed, and again he

(01:04:45):
left this world in sometraumatic circumstances.
But I wanted to get to the rootcause of everything.
I wanted to go to his apartment.
I wanted to speak to thedetectives.
I wanted to speak to thesurgeons.
I wanted to speak to the rootcause of everything.
I wanted to go to his apartment.
I wanted to speak to thedetectives, I wanted to speak to
the surgeons, I wanted to speakto the paramedics.
And so there I was, three orfour days after his passing, at
his apartment.
I'd already been forewarned bythe detective hey, watch out

(01:05:07):
there's.
You know, it's quite the sight,it's quite the scene, and just
brace yourself.
Anyway, I was with my daughterAshley, and again, let me kind
of say this you know, myyoungest daughter, hannah, had
just given birth.
Fortunately for her.
By the way, from that moment,from giving birth, for the next

(01:05:30):
few months, she was beautifullyshielded by the reality of what
we all faced, because she had tobe a mom right and she did a
banner job of it.
Right downside is is her griefgot delayed a little bit, but
the upside for sure she wasspared a lot of the you know the
immediate pain that we werefacing right.
Um, my, my daughter, ashley, byfar took it the hardest, I

(01:05:54):
would tell you.
You know, I've, I've, myrelationship with my son,
despite ups and downs over thecourse of time, like we all have
, was pretty good, I would tellyou.
I I knew my son.
He was a boundary tester.
He, you know he was.
He was funny, he was witty, hewas a, you know, the guy most
likely to make you smile and theguy that you probably wanted to
slap first thing in the morningin equal amounts, right.

(01:06:17):
But kid you not, ashley knew himbest.
Those two were peas in a pod.
They absolutely, you know, theycould tell what each other were
thinking just by looking at him.
So anyway, I'm with Ashley andI could tell anyway that she was
struggling with it.
You know, she was a zombie,just like wow, um.
But there we were at hisapartment and my, uh, my phone

(01:06:37):
rang and obviously at the time Ididn't want to speak to anybody
and I'm looking at the phoneringing and it was probably one
of only two or three people thatI would be answering the phone
to then and I did.
My a good friend of mine, Heath,you know him, know Heath know,
you know Heath right, reallygood guy.
And uh, Heath asked me.

(01:06:58):
He said hey, where are you?
You, okay, you know what?
Are you doing?
Anything I can do, kind ofthing.
He was checking in.
So I gave him a brief overviewwhere I was at, what I was doing
.
He said who you with and I saidI'm with ashley, he knows
actually really well too, right.
And he's like, oh no, he, no,you got to get off the phone for
me and you've got to go doubledown on that kid right now, go
double down on her.
That's where double down comesfrom.

(01:07:21):
I'm giving Heath the credit forit.
I use it in having theexplanation and explaining my
backstory a little bit wheneverI'm asked to do it, and it's as
simple as this.
Our lives changed in the blinkof an eye, right, Yours could
tomorrow.
Yours could tomorrow, right, weall.
Again, mine could change againtomorrow.

(01:07:43):
But if there's somebody in yourlife that's important to you,
then, man, make sure that theyknow it.
You know, go overboard on itfrom time to time.
Double down Always.
Don't say don't hug them once,hug them twice.
Yeah, you know, because, justlike me, I could have been with
my son the night.
I chose not to long story inthat I could have been with him
that night and maybe this allwouldn't have occurred.
You know, maybe it would haveum, just deferred, who knows, um

(01:08:07):
, but fact is is I didn't and Iwish so.
Perhaps at least by doublingdown it avoids that regret.
Yeah, you know.
So double down always.
That would be.
I'm not a wise guy, but I wouldtell you that wisdom passed on
to me.
The credit needs to go to Heath.
But that is actually.
They are wise words.

TJ (01:08:28):
Yeah.
I love it yeah, tough timesproduce wisdom, I think.

Gez (01:08:31):
Yeah, yeah, well said.

TJ (01:08:34):
Very Love it.
Yeah, tough times producewisdom.
I think, yeah, yeah, well said,very well said, yeah, well man,
we appreciate you, love whatyou're doing, thanks, thanks for
being on the episode.

Gez (01:08:39):
We'll see you next time you got it.
Thanks for having me.
We're going to have you backfor sure.

TJ (01:08:42):
Yeah, well, thanks so much.
Thanks for coming out, yeah.