#35 Praying to Trickster; Howard Gayton and the power of Mask (Pt1)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:34):
The.

(00:58):
Welcome to The Nonsense in theChaos.
I'm your host, Jolie Rose.
You are in for a real treattonight because I am
interviewing a dear friend ofmine who I knew vaguely before
the pilgrimage that we walkedtogether, but I got to know him
properly.
Walking from London to Glasgowon the.

(01:21):
Spine of Albion pilgrimage thatwe walked to Cop 26.
His name's Howard Gaton and he'sa right dark horse.
Actually, when we began thewalk, I didn't know much about
him.
I knew he'd done fooling Butthen as we walked the
pilgrimage, I discovered thatthere's a lot to Howard.
he's a right deep character.

(01:43):
I love him to pieces.
He's very funny and very naughtyand very exciting and easy to
talk to.
And because of this, ourdiscussion ended up being two
hours long.
So rather than.
Trying to edit that down andsqueeze it into an hour long
podcast, I decided to split itinto two.

(02:05):
So this week you have part one,and this is me and Howard
chatting before we get ontodoing the cards and the Chaos
Crusade.
part two, you'll, have the chaoselement of us pulling the cards,
but this beginning one, thispart one, is us chatting about
all things to do with foolinglife, the universe and

(02:25):
everything.
it was an absolute pleasure andI hope you enjoy.
So without further ado, here ismy dear friend Howard Gaton.

Jolie (02:42):
so I thought it would be good to mention right from the
offset that you are doing a PhDat

Howard (02:47):
Yeah.

Jolie (02:48):
What's your research based on?

Howard (02:52):
So it's, it's practices research.
So it's, I don't,

Jolie (02:54):
Brilliant.

Howard (02:55):
I don't do a lot of reading.
I mainly do practice, and itstarted out being com kind of
comedia connection to cabal.
So I was interested in kind ofwestern esoteric thought and
couldn't, I couldn't get anygrip on that at all.
I just couldn't find a, a wayin.
But what I was interested isthat kind of like mystical side

(03:17):
to masks, that, that kind ofother, the, the sort of
metaphysical, and then I, I sawa, on my Facebook, I saw
Jonathan's face saying, come anddo.
Fooling in he was in London, Ithink.
And I'd, I'd done some stuffbefore with Jonathan.
I actually took a workshop withhim back in the eighties, like a

(03:37):
full time.
So I've sort of, and I've seenhim a few times, so I thought,
well, I'll do that.
I was trying lots of differentworkshops, just try and find
some inroad into this.
And then basically did that thenext week or so, I then sort of
went off to Germany to, to docircle plays and it was, my mind
was blank and was like, that's,this is what I'm into.

(03:58):
So now what I'm looking into isfull,

Jolie (04:00):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (04:02):
but the specifics are kind of how it affects my
practice and other people'spractice.
So like, one of the reasons,this is a sort of weird thing
'cause we're sort ofinterviewing each other in a way
because I'm also so yeah, solike how,

Jolie (04:18):
I wanted

Howard (04:18):
yeah,

Jolie (04:19):
that at the top to say that.
So yeah, this is more of a twoway chat.
We'll do the cards as well.
We'll use the cards

Howard (04:26):
yeah.
Yeah.
That'd be good.
Yeah.

Jolie (04:27):
element into it.
And also the, unknown becausethat's what we're

Howard (04:30):
Yeah.
Totally.

Jolie (04:31):
full.

Howard (04:32):
Yeah.

Jolie (04:32):
so that's nice to add that in.
But, yeah.
So you then was your Explainwhat a circle play is.

Howard (04:41):
The circle play, as far as I'm aware, and I've, I, I've
asked Jonathan this a number of.
It seems to me very ceremonialso that a, a group of people
gather around in circle, and asI understood it, and as, as it
happened in, in Germany when Idid it, the, the people on the
outside are kind of almost disnot disengaged, but they,

(05:06):
they're, they're witnesses towhat's happening and they're
witnessing from that place inthemselves at the archetypal.
So it's, they're kind of thearchetypal world, witnessing
what's going on in the circle.
And what happens is itindividually, people come into
the circle with a question Andthen Jonathan kind of steers you

(05:26):
through effectively thestructure of the fall.
So taking you into further andfurther into your question and,
and acting out perhaps scenes,whether the question comes up
and what happened when I wasdoing it?
Well, I think he still doesthat.
So if Jonathan made a move, thenthe rest of the people would
also make the move.
So you get this sense whenyou're, that you are kind of

(05:47):
contained, you're supported,you've got people witnessing
you, and you are going into apart of your, I mean, I, I think
it's a part of the psyche.
And the interesting thing, thingfor me is a part of the psyche
eventually where the psychemeets.
The unity that meets the, thewhole that I think you're trying
to get, which is that kind ofarchetypal world in order to get

(06:07):
some understanding or healing orsomething about the question
that you've had.
So you kind of come away withsome, there's, there's been some
movement in that question whereyou come away either I, I, I
think I ended up, I, I, I foundit quite deep.
I was going in ended up, oh, Iwas crying quite a lot.

(06:28):
You know, you, you express quitea lot of emotion in it, and the
idea is it's being held and thatwhat happens is if you've got
like 20 people doing this andyou do two per day, the buildup
of the stories that you areseeing, they speak to each
other, of course, becausethey're kind of archetypal.
So you start, you start havingyour question seen in

(06:49):
relationship to other people's

Jolie (06:51):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (06:51):
and, and they start to have this conversation in a, in
a sense going on.
And we did it for, I think itwas like seven days straight.
I think it, it's pretty intense.

Jolie (07:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's my

Howard (07:02):
Yeah.

Jolie (07:02):
bit of fooling.
I do absolutely love doing thecircle plays, and I found that
the more we did them, more youbecame aware of what your flavor
was.
And that's what the, is in a wayan answer to some of your
question about how this has thenaffected my practice is with The
Witch Fool You course.

(07:23):
What that is for me is meexploring with people what their
archetype is, because the thingthat I got from the Circle plays
was after a few times of doingit, I only, I've only done
about.
Well, I did about three withJonathan and then we did a, a
week of doing stuff with Max,

Howard (07:39):
Right.

Jolie (07:40):
interesting, where we started to invite audiences to
sit and watch.
So we still had that circle ofwitnesses and we still held that
space where we did the circleplay, but people were watching
us as an audience and I wasquite, yeah, like really it.
But it blew these, they werestudents, they were 18, 19.

(08:00):
It blew their minds.
They said, I didn't know youcould do this with theater.
And it, it blew them.
I know that that changed theirlives.
So I'm kind of interested inexploring how we might be able
to do more with that.
And I know that Max wasinterested in that as well.
It's something that I'd like toexplore more, but the, by doing
the play a few times especiallyones with Jonathan,'cause they

(08:23):
were so intense, I started tonotice a, like pattern or like
an essence that was mycharacter.
That was my,'cause it's yourinner world.

Howard (08:32):
Yeah.

Jolie (08:33):
start to see what the flavor is of your inner world.
then where I then went with thatwas I just gave myself absolute
permission to fully embracethat.
It was like my inner world isquite sexual.
It's very adventurous.
It's very brave.
And, and I just kind of took allof those things and went, okay,
well that's, that links toAphrodite, that links to

(08:56):
Artemis.
It's working class trumpet.
It's Nancy from Oliver Twist,it's Willow from the Wicker Man.
It's all of these characters andthey all belong to me and I
belong to them.
And then what I do with theWitch Faller You course is I, I
support other people to findthat.
And we make altar pieces wherewe've got, you know, I've got
Pat Butcher on my altar and I'vegot Miss Piggy and I've got like

(09:19):
all of these.
Bits of my lineage and then Iown them all.
And what I've then found usefulabout that in my everyday life
is when it comes to makingdecisions, like when I was
vegetarian for a while, I'm notnow because I can't eat wheat
and dairy or pulses.
So it kind of limited.
I had to sort of bring meat backin.
But when I first becamevegetarian, the thing that I

(09:39):
loved about it, having beensomeone who could eat anything
and would eat anything, was howactually too much choice is a
bit depressing.
I think it actually is bad foryour, your mental health.
I actually liked going into arestaurant and only having one
choice.
It was like, that's thevegetarian option.
That's what I'm having.
And that's what I feel like withthe archetypal stuff is that

(10:02):
once I know what my archetypeis, I still could have anything
else on the menu.
Like they're all,'cause they'reall in you, the inner divine
jewel.
You have your facet and, andit's a see-through jewel.
So when you look through it, youcan see all the other facets,
which is why as actors and asfools and as performers, we can
play all the parts.
We can be a bridge, we can be atree, we can be a Donald Trump,

(10:22):
we can be any of these things'cause they're all actually
within us, but our facet has acertain face.
It has a certain thing that it'sbringing to the party.

Howard (10:32):
Yeah, I get that with masks.
So I work in Comedia, so with

Jolie (10:35):
Mm.

Howard (10:36):
like Italian half masks and when I teach students that,
there's one of the things I say,I've sort of imagined it like a
cookie D cutter, and that's thearchetype of that mask.
There's Zani or the RE orPantalone, and we each have
elements of that, of all of themin us.
They all come out in differentways.

(10:57):
So for one ACT actor, it mightbe they sort of do the head of
that cookie CCUs or another onemight be the, the.
The limb or something.
And so you get these differentaspects of the mask.
The mask is opening up, but it'sstill a cookie cutter.
It's still a mask, but there'sall these different
relationships and you nearlyalways get the same thing where
yes, you get people who relateto can do some or two, but

(11:20):
suddenly they'll get one andthey just, like, that's, you
just, they literally just comealive.
The masks suddenly come alive.
And that's the most amazingmoment when you see, you go,
right, let's see, that's yourmask.

Jolie (11:32):
Yeah,

Howard (11:32):
You are za or you are a pantalone, you are a doctor.
And it, it has a similar thing.
I think with that, I mean, what,what falling did me, I realized
I, I had quite a hard time'causeI was, I was getting really
annoyed that I couldn't do whatJonathan can do because you
know, see if you've seenJonathan perform live, if he's
on, if he's on on it, it is my,and then I realized

Jolie (11:56):
blowing.

Howard (11:56):
I was doing punch and Judy and I realized that, that
I'm not that kind of fool.
That actually if I just sit inthe fall that I do, which is
punch and duty and allow thatarchetype to come through.
And, and I realize that's where,that's where my fall expresses
is in punch.
It's in chlamydia.
That's it.
And it's, so coming back to mypractices from doing this

(12:20):
journey with fooling has totallychanged my understanding of
them, the way I do them, the wayI teach them.
It's just.
It, it's like added.
They were, I always thought theywere three dimensional, but it's
almost like they were three, twodimensional and suddenly you've
put a light on their three, ormaybe they were three, and
they've got a dimension.
There's something that the fullbrings, which I think is that

(12:41):
archetypal, that that unashamedrealization

Jolie (12:46):
Realization.

Howard (12:47):
is at its heart, metaphysical, that it, that it's
about, the other, and theater,for most of its history, that's
what it's been about.

Jolie (12:55):
yeah,

Howard (12:55):
then materialism came along and we went, no, it's all,
it's not about that, but it is.
I mean, you know, that, or, orcertainly, you know, stuff that,
that we do like with momming andthings is all about that.

Jolie (13:07):
magic.
I mean, I'm guessing you've readthe death and Resurrection Show
Have you heard of

Howard (13:11):
No, I don't think, no, you must send me a link to.

Jolie (13:14):
You're gonna love that back.
It's really hard to get a holdof.
I was talking about it withanother guest Rebecca.
It was yeah, it was fundamentalin my journey, and I read it
before I met Jonathan.
So when I met Jonathan, it madecomplete sense.
It's a guy called Reagan Taylor,who's a scouser.
And he wrote it as his PhD.
And then he went more into kindof football and football as a

(13:37):
mass, like the, the cult, likethe archetypal of football.
So that's where his work is now.
But he, just got it.
He got what theater was in thathe was saying that we, it began
with the shaman and that as soonas we had near death experience,
as soon as we had consciousness.
So we became conscious.
Yeah.

(13:57):
And we suddenly feared death.
And then anyone who surviveddeath, we wanted to know how
they did it and they would useperformance to try and express
it.
And then that performance wasthen taken as being a, a healing
act.
And they became the healers andthe shaming is the showman.
And they would use performativetricks to enhance their.

(14:19):
Healing performances.
And they were all of the thingsthat are Looney tunes, you know,
like being able to change sex orwalk on the ceiling or go in one
door and come in throughanother.
I mean, it's all, it's allLooney Tunes and Laurel and
Hardy, it's all of this stuff.
And then also the snake charmerand, and rope climbing and
aerial performing and all ofthese things and being able to
change gender.
And it all is stuff that theshaman could do because the

(14:40):
shaman wasn't bound by physics.
then that then developed intoall of the performing arts that
we have.
And one of the things theytalked about was the caves where
there's been cave paintingsfound actually have really good
acoustics as well.
And in those places they foundlike bones with holes in where
they'd have been little flutesand things.
So there would've been theseceremonial spaces that they

(15:02):
painted and decorated and thenhad music and they would be in
these spaces doing theseperformances.
And my theory that when you arebeing observed, you know,
there's that particle,

Howard (15:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jolie (15:16):
where they have the slits.
Yeah.
And when you observe theparticles, they behave
differently.
When you are being observed, youfeel like every atom in your
body starts shaking.
And it's that the adrenaline,but it's that nerves of, of
suddenly kick in.
And I think that we would holdthese spaces and put people in
the middle and observe them.
We would then learn from that,that when we were out in a fight

(15:38):
or flight adrenaline situation,we were more like the matrix
because we were able to centerourselves and we could stay calm
and we were able to, you knowwhat's the word when you keep
your nervous system balanced,but regulate, regulate your
nervous system and not do thingstoo fast, all of that stuff.
And I've found it in my own lifewhere I've been in like a car
accident once where someone lostcontrol of the car and everyone

(15:59):
started screaming and I've satbehind the driver and I just put
my hands on her shoulders and Iwas like, calm down, calm down.
And was because I had thattheater training that I was able
to do that in that moment.
So I think that that's one of mytheories as to how we found that
useful.
That we would hold this space toobserve each other, to train
ourselves to be more comfortablewith those situations.

Howard (16:19):
Makes me think of so it was about 20, God, 20 years ago
now.
20 years ago.
Yeah.
2004, five.
I I went out to Arizona where mynow wife Terry had an arts
retreat, and I went out to go tonative ceremonies because I was
really fascinated by that wholemo, you know, they've actually
got a, a effectively an unbrokentradition of, of what you're

(16:42):
talking about.
And one of the places we wentwas Hopi land, and we didn't, we
didn't, I didn't manage see anyof the Hopi dancers.
I managed to see YY dancers, butthe Hopi have, they have kivas,
which are these undergroundplaces.
And a lot of traditions havethis, like the masks start
underground and they're doingtheir ceremonies, and then the
mask is called out.

(17:03):
So they've been undergroundgetting into a trance state, and
then they get called out.
I mean, we have that in, inhere, like in Padstow, the masks
that the asses are called out ofpubs by a band, like piping them
out.
But there's that sort of senseof coming outta the ground,
coming outta this, and they'rein that mask state, and then
they go around the town and dotheir ceremonies.

(17:24):
But they're in, you know,they've been, they've really
been put into the, that Marsstate.
And look, some of the dancers Isaw the yucky dancers Easter
dancers, they've, people havebeen out for six weeks in the
desert taking peyote and doingall sorts of sweat, all sorts of
stuff so that when they come infor the ceremony, they are
really on a, they're clearly ona different plane.

(17:46):
They're coming in and it's forthe people that are observing
it, it's for them that I, I sawat three o'clock, one, one
morning there was like 20 clownssuddenly came in to the, to the
space.
But they, and they wereclowning, but they weren't
performing for anyone.
They were just clowning.
But in this sort of like thing,but it was like, it blew my

(18:08):
mind.
'cause that's like, that'sclown.
It's not, they were definitelystill being clowns, but they
weren't performing for anyone.
But there was something aboutThey're just doing it.
Yeah.
And they're just doing itbecause that's what needs to be
done.
And they, so it's obviouslypartly for the observer, if
anybody happens to see them, butit's also partly for them, and
it's partly for, you know,there's a lot of, for the land,

(18:31):
for the people, for the, for theturning of the earth, there's,
there's a

Jolie (18:34):
Mm.

Howard (18:34):
real connection to the needs to do it for, for a
connection to nature.

Jolie (18:40):
Yeah.
That, I mean that for me hasbeen the key, a key thing.
It was doing sisterhood.
So I took sisterhood on tour,which was a play I worked with
my, I, so I went to, I did anayahuasca ceremony and I mean,
just going back to the circleplays, the thing I love about
circle plays is that no medicineplants are involved in that.

(19:02):
And I feel like it's the deepestwork I've ever done.
Ayahuasca is amazing and I loveworking with medicine plants,
but being able to do it off yourown sweat and

Howard (19:11):
Mm.

Jolie (19:12):
just from your body and your own imagination is, I think
so powerful.
I, that's what circle plays Ijust think are the deepest work
you can do, and they'reincredible.
But yeah, I did this ayahuascaceremony and it was dedicated to
the divine feminine, and it wasprior to that being a bit more
of a normal, you know, we, that,we all know about that now, but
this was the first time that I'dheard someone say.

(19:34):
You are all aspects of thefeminine, of the, the goddess.
And we are going to worship thegoddess tonight.
We're worshiping the goddess inyou and we're worshiping the
earth and, and the feminine.
that was the first time I'dheard that.
And then we got worshiped allnight long and I've never been
worshiped before.
And it was very nice.
And they weren't like, mean.
It was lovely.
But no one was doing anything tous.

(19:56):
It wasn't, there was nointerference.
It was just intention.
there was a point where he sang,this is a, a charman called
Kahoi, and he's from Columbia.
And he sang into the back of hisdrum and it just sounded like an
ancient singing from the back ofa cave.
And all of us had a grouphallucination when it happened.
We saw this gold beam of lightcome down and hit us all.
And then we all had differentexperiences.

(20:18):
And I atomized and turned intothis like larvae queen bee thing
that was just having a constantorgasm for like hours, which
was, and it just became reallysexual as well.
And the whole tent was reallysexual.
And for me that was like, ohyeah,'cause that's what the
feminine is.
Feminine is sex.
You've got the, and the men werekind of walking around like cock
crawls.
They were spreading around likecock crawls.

(20:40):
And I was like, you've got themasculine energy.
But the feminine was the sexualenergy and it was so creative
and.
Gentle and gorgeous.
It was so beautiful.
And I woke up the next morningand I just knew I had to write a
play called Sisterhood with mymentor and the girl that I was
mentor to.
And they didn't know each other,but I knew that I'd passed on my

(21:00):
mentor's knowledge to my, mymentee.
And I was just like, okay, myprotege.
And that was all I knew.
I'd been intending to make somekind of like vagina monologues,
some modern in my head, that'swhat I thought it was gonna be.
in the end, we made this kindaShakespearean, really long epic,
very gentle gallows humor playabout three women locks in a

(21:21):
church and in the morningthey're facing their trail for
witchcraft.
And then when we did the tour,we went to all the places where
Matthew Hopkins, the witchfinder General, had executed and
tortured witches.
And we did the play.
And then we did a healingceremony in each place.
And we read the names of who'dbeen killed there or tortured
there and just honored them andhonored their memory.

(21:42):
And the first two performances,thunder and lightning.
And when I said we're forgivingand forgetting Matthew Hopkins,
huge crack of thunder.
Like everyone went, oh my God.
Like what?
And then we went to Manning treeat the full moon and it had been
all rain and horrible.
And we went, we did the healingceremony and then we went
outside to where these threetrees were growing that were for
the three women who'd been hungthere.
That started the witch craze.

(22:03):
So that then led to all theother witches that got killed
because of them.
And we put the stones that we'dused in the healing ceremony at
the roots of the tree and thesky cleared and the full moon
shone right down on us fromabove.
then the next morning, our nextvenue had a rainbow over it.
And then for the rest of thetour it was sunny.
And everyone was just saying,even people who'd only just been

(22:24):
to that one performance where itwas sunny were like, it feels
like the atmosphere's cleared.
Like it feels like something'sshifted.
And that taught me that naturewill get involved if you allow
it.
If you are open to her beingthere and being part of it,
she'll do that.
And then that's what happenedwith the pilgrimage.
And it kept happening with thepilgrimage.
You know,

Howard (22:43):
Yeah.

Jolie (22:43):
rainbows at just the right point and things like
that.
And that's geo mancy, likethat's what I would call Geo is
working with land magic.
where are you at with all ofthat?

Howard (22:56):
Well, I think I, I, it's just really strange.
Every now and then I forget thatI've done it.
And Terry will say, you'vewalked up the spot.
I did.
I yeah.
They were, they were both quitesomething, but they're very
different.
I feel very different.
The

Jolie (23:08):
Very

Howard (23:09):
one was, God only knows how we met, how it, how we
actually all got up there in onepiece.
Because it was so, the stuffthat you were having to deal
with all the, all the stuff ofhow we were getting stuff, there
was so much logistics in thatone.
It felt that there was a lot oflogistics going.

Jolie (23:28):
Yeah.

Howard (23:30):
and I think for, for me, yeah, I mean I had some quite
amazing experiences on it.
I remember the, I think it wasthe, the, the church in
Birmingham where I had a, likea, that kind of e energetic,
like I was half dreaming, halfI, I can't, I, I think I was

(23:51):
awake, but half dreaming, but Idon't think it was a dream and I
can just like shaking, which wasthat I think the, you know, the,
the Ellen, that energy of, ofsort of that energy I, I mean
one of, I remember going to thatwas it in Manchester?
The, that amazing oh, ex churchand having the blessing

Jolie (24:12):
Yeah,

Howard (24:12):
Yeah, that the Abbey, yeah, that was, that was
incredible.
That was really moving and verykind of deep in on that sort of
crossing of the lay lines.
Yeah, I mean, I think it was, itwas, that was, that was quite in
change.
I think for me.
I was quite inward with that.
The one going across where wedid the Moming play.

(24:35):
That for me was, I loved that somuch.
I mean, it obviously, it endedslightly tragically for me with
I.
Are you talking about Dear man?
So it ended tragically becausemy dog died Tilly died while I
was there.
And do you remember that?
We, oh, it's the most beautifulthing.
So we had,

Jolie (24:53):
mm

Howard (24:54):
we didn't know, I knew that, that, that Tilly was ill
and we were at, was itWellington,

Jolie (25:00):
mump.

Howard (25:01):
wasn't it?
And we went up and there was ahound, hound tour or something.
Was that a hound bump?
There was a one that was sort oflike a, a a a dog man, which was
looking out to Glastonbury

Jolie (25:14):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (25:15):
just we, about

Jolie (25:17):
Wasn't it a dog nose?

Howard (25:18):
something like

Jolie (25:18):
a

Howard (25:19):
that.
It was something to do with dogs

Jolie (25:20):
but we didn't know until after we, we,

Howard (25:23):
we didn't know until afterwards.

Jolie (25:24):
us while we were there.
Yeah.

Howard (25:25):
Yeah, exactly.
And then I got this call that Ihad to go back.
'cause you know, Tilly reallyonly had a, a day to, to live.
And we did the show to thespirit.
There was no one there, and wejust did the show to, to the
land.
Yeah.
And it was really, yeah, that,that felt really good.
It, it was, it was like a a andwe did it kind of honoring

(25:46):
titty.
So up until that point I'd had.
Just the best time.
I just loved that show and that,because that one we basically,
we didn't have any logistics'cause we just have whatever you
could have on your back.
And that was it.
That was it.
You know, a 10 little individualstoves and we would camp.
And had some amazing experience,didn't we?
I mean, we camped only, we didsome wild camping.

(26:07):
We had a lot of times whenpeople would just put us up and
it was much easier.
'cause there's what, seven,seven or eight of us most of the
time.
So rather than like 30 people.

Jolie (26:16):
It was so

Howard (26:17):
yeah,

Jolie (26:17):
like that's the thing

Howard (26:18):
I found it really liberating.
Yeah.

Jolie (26:20):
Yeah.
Just

Howard (26:22):
And it,

Jolie (26:22):
able to just camp in a bush, just like, yeah, we're
just staying here.
You just walk till you can't bebothered to walk anymore and
then just go to sleep somewhere.

Howard (26:28):
yeah, exactly.
And the show itself I found veryliberating.
It, it reminded me a lot of theearly work I did with my company
where you just turn up somewhereand just go, we'll do it here.
Just, it was just so much easierto just do the show where we, I
mean we did it outside of pubs,we did it in stone circles.
We did it in out, we did itoutside.
When we went to st to the St.

(26:48):
Michael's.
And we walked all the way then,and then it was shut.
So we did the show.
Do you remember that?
We did it outside the gate, sowe did it outside the gate.
It was a really good show.
So really,

Jolie (26:57):
Yeah.
It was brilliant.

Howard (26:59):
so I loved that, that that show particularly seemed to
be very, that really much moreadaptable.
'cause it was, I know, 20minutes long or 15 minutes long
and, and that was really like amoming show.
And that felt, that felt reallygood along that.
That particular line, I think,

Jolie (27:19):
Yeah.
Well it's so connected.
I mean, it is the St.
George line'cause

Howard (27:22):
yeah.

Jolie (27:22):
been looking at this again'cause I've been writing
the book about the first one Idid along that route and how St.
Michael's, the inner world andSt.
George is the outer world.
So they're both the dragonslayers, but St.

Howard (27:34):
Right.

Jolie (27:34):
inner world version and St.
George's the Alta World version.
But you'll often see them inchurches together, the stained
glass windows together and

Howard (27:40):
on the St.
Michael line.
So we perform,

Jolie (27:42):
Yes.

Howard (27:43):
it in the church, and now our church is

Jolie (27:46):
amazing.

Howard (27:47):
very well, when I do my os here, I get blessed in the
church by the vicar and thenblessed with the PA blessing.
And then we're called out andthis year we did.
So we've set up now cha formums.
So when you like come through

Jolie (28:01):
off, aren't we in in

Howard (28:02):
Yeah.

Jolie (28:03):
We're having a mum off.

Howard (28:04):
That's the aim.
And we did, we did a version ofRobin Hood in the church over
Christmas.
So there's a, we have a thingcalled Celebrating the Earth,
which was started at the sametime as, as that first
pilgrimage, if you remembergoing up to Cop because it cop
was in Glasgow.
It was a big sort of thing.
There were a lot of people fromtown set up a a thing called

(28:27):
celebrating the Earth in thechurch for the weeks leading up
to cop.
And it was a non-denominationalnon, it was, it was just
celebrating the earth and it waslike finding a way for anybody,
pagan, Christian, athe, anybodyto come and just be in a space
which celebrates the earth andit has poetry and all sorts of
things.
And it was so successful.

(28:48):
It's carried on.
So every month there's thiscelebrating the earth and it's
all different.
So, you know, the, the MomingShow was, was a Christmas thing.
There's normally some peoplereading poetry or playing some
music, and then there's a sortof time of reflection.
And it's an amazing thing that'skind of happened that, that the,
the, the actual, the the sort ofelders of the church really like

(29:12):
it.
'cause it's bringing commun,it's bringing all community back
into the church.
And it's, it's, it's likesuddenly the church has become
all of ours

Jolie (29:20):
Oh, that's

Howard (29:20):
again.
Our dog, our dog, our new Lotty.
'cause she goes to it quite alot.
Whenever she goes past it, shetries to go in because she,
because dogs are allowed in.
So yeah.
So it really nice.

Jolie (29:30):
which is what it should be.
I've got a friend here who didthe pilgrimage to BoomTown with
me, and she's marrying a vicarand she's a witch.
She's a pagan witch, and she'smarrying a, she's marrying a
vicar this year.
And that's what they're doing,where they are as well.
And it's this, she was saying isyou've got these resources
everywhere where there's thesebuildings that are set up for.

(29:52):
Spiritual, you know, of spendingtime together and being in
community and connecting withthe inner world and they're not
really being used.
And surely we should beexploring how we reinvigorate
them and bring community backand actually what is happening
in chat food.
So that's brilliant.
I love that.
I,

Howard (30:09):
Yeah.

Jolie (30:10):
I, I mean it was wonderful to be there.
It did feel really strangeplaying bu and the fires of hell
the middle of a church.
That was really funny.
Mary Tinker being all sexual.
It's very funny.
yeah, it was wonderful.
And what's great about thatroute as well is because it's a
much gentler way of life.

(30:30):
We found that different with thespine of Alium, that when we
were doing the Michael Line,people told each other 10 miles
ahead and we were being invitedto places as we went along, so
we're suddenly being invited tothe school or, you know, that
kept happening.
It happened less on the verticalroute because it's through
cities and people are just busy.
So they're not, they're nothearing that you are coming

(30:51):
'cause they're going

Howard (30:52):
Yeah.

Jolie (30:52):
lives.
So that was quite different.
We had to arrange it more interms of arranging performances
along that route.
But yeah, that's the thing thatI love about the micro route.
I do feel, and this is just mefinding patterns in things, but
I think it's interesting that.
East west is air, water.
So east is air and water iswest.

(31:14):
And that's the, the inner andouter thinking and inner world.
And then north south is, northis earth and south is fire.
And that's more kind of action.
So, and that's how I feel likethe lines are.
So I feel like when I walk theMichael and Mary Lines, that's
about my own inner, it's likerefilling the, well, like that's
where I go and get a bit ofinner time.

(31:34):
It makes me think about things.
My, my, my intellect, my braingets inspired and gets ideas for
stuff and what I feelspiritually fulfilled from doing
it.
And then the spine of aliumfeels like that's putting your
action out into the world.
It's making you physically dosomething.
And that's more of a giving, andthat's more of an outer,

Howard (31:51):
And it's like you say, harder, it's a harder physical
route as well, isn't it?
Because you

Jolie (31:55):
Yeah.
It's

Howard (31:56):
like when you,

Jolie (31:57):
It's busier.

Howard (31:58):
it's longer,

Jolie (31:58):
more going on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's actually not, they're both500 miles.
If you're going up to Edinburghfrom is of white, it's 500
miles.

Howard (32:06):
right?

Jolie (32:07):
length.
Yeah.
But we did a shorter one when wedid the micro.
We only went to dragon Hill,

Howard (32:14):
Yeah.
We did also, I found it quitefunny in the, the first one
where we were saying we we'rewalking from London to Glasgow
and we actually, we, we left themain route from Henley up to
Edinburgh, didn't we?
I,

Jolie (32:24):
Yeah.
It's ley to Edinburgh and, andin my head it was the Isle of
White to the top, you know, to

Howard (32:33):
yeah.

Jolie (32:36):
yeah.
I had a different, a differentroute in my head for what it
was.
It was like the most mindblowing thing I've ever done,
like, without a doubt.
That was unbelievable.

(33:02):
If you enjoy this podcast, thenplease consider supporting me on
Patreon.
This is patreon.com/joly Rose.
I am dreaming of the day thatthis is my full-time job and I
hope that this is something thatI am able to work towards the.

(33:24):
Difficulties of living on anisland where there isn't a huge
number of people to be theaudience and to share
experiences and events with.
It means that I can once a yearput on a festival and possibly I
could once a year put on a show,but it's not the same as when I
was living in Brighton or livingin the UK where I could just put
things on and do thingsconstantly and get funding from

(33:46):
the Arts Council and just livethe life of an artist, which
I've managed to do for the last20 years and I'm very proud of.
But now I've moved here and itwas really important to me.
To make this shift, like I movedto be more in nature and more in
the land.
But also I felt that the worldof theater that I had been part

(34:07):
of for the last 20 years hadbecome quite toxic because it
felt like the only people whowere able to afford to make that
living as an artist and work inthat world where people with
money in their background, andI'm not saying that anyone with
money is.
Not welcome to be in that space,but when it's only people with

(34:29):
money, it just felt, it becamemore and more toxic feeling to
me.
And so I was not, I wasn'thappy, like I felt like theater
was already broken before thepandemic happened, and that the
pandemic was almost like a handyexcuse for myself, especially to
segue outta that space where Ino longer felt comfortable and I

(34:51):
no longer felt like it wasreally.
In integrity and I shifted intohopefully writing, but being
more in nature and being in thisamazing space where I don't need
to be able to drive'cause thereare no cars.
The island is only one mile wideand three miles long.
And for me to be able to connectwith audiences and connect with

(35:15):
people online rather thanphysically, I was on the road
all the time and moving aroundall the time and going to
meetings constantly and just mycarbon footprint and.
Hecticness was off the chartsand I didn't want to go back to
that life as well.
Like it felt like we learnedsomething from the lockdown,
which was to slow down and tolive differently and I've then

(35:36):
found myself in this completelydifferent reality doing that,
and I want to.
Stick with it.
I want to keep, keep to still bean artist, but in this space,
which is a completely isolatedisland, miles away from
everybody else, but with thepower of the internet.
And we may not have thisforever.

(35:57):
Who knows how things are gonnapan out in the future, but while
it still exists, I'm gonna tryand.
Build my career around it.
And so any help that you're ableto give me is hugely
appreciated.
This is work that I'm hopingnourishes you and gives you some
sort of spiritual solace andstrength and nourishment.

(36:19):
And if you feel like it is doingthat, then.
If you are up for helping me toliterally eat and be able to pay
my rent and, buy new equipment,I'm not happy with the equipment
I've got.
I'd be amazing to be able to payan editor one day'cause it takes
me so long to do.
I'm doing all of the, I'm doingeverything on this and I'm

(36:41):
learning as I go along.
I wasn't trained in anything todo with sound.
Previously it's been amazing tolearn a new skill.
I always, I love learning newskills but any help that I would
be able to afford to pay for atsome point would be great.
And yeah, to be able to make aliving from doing this would be
amazing.
So if you are able to help methe first tier of the Patreon is

(37:03):
just three pound a month, whichis, the same as you buying me a
coffee to say thank you.
That would be amazing if youfeel like you would.
Consider doing that.
If we were in the same physicalvicinity as each other, then if
you're up for paying me a cup ofcoffee a month, that'd be great.
And then if you do the secondtier, which is nine pound a
month, which would be the sameas you like buying me a.

(37:26):
I dunno, sandwich things are soexpensive nowadays.
It's not like you'll be buyingme a meal, buying me a bit of a
meal, buying me half a meal.
If you feel like you would bewilling to buy me half a meal to
say thank you for thenourishment that you get from
listening to this podcast, thenfor that you also get to see the
videos of the podcast and anyother free bits of, stuff that I

(37:50):
get to share and discounts oncourses and things like that.
And mainly a huge amount ofappreciation for me and I do
appreciate so much the peoplewho are already helping me.
Thank you to my Patreons.
I really, I.
I can't say how much it means tome that you are supporting me.
It feels such a treat.

(38:11):
Whenever I see something's comeup and someone's signed up, it's
the best feeling in the world'cause you just feel so
appreciated.
So I really do appreciate youback for doing that.
Thank you.
And just to let you know aboutsome of the things that I do
that you can.
Come and take part in is themoon ceremonies that I do every
fortnight.

(38:31):
If you want to join these,they're free and they're over
zoom and all you have to do isfollow on Facebook or Instagram,
which are both at queer arts,K-R-I-Y-A-A-R-T-S.
If you follow me, then you'llsee the links.
I put them up.
Every fortnight and you justcome along and they're really
nourishing, beautiful spacesthat I need.

(38:54):
So they're like the grammar inmy life.
They make me stop, they make mesort my house out and make it
into a sacred space.
They make me connect to the.
The cycles and the seasons andto every aspect of personality
by following the Wheel of theyear in astrology, you check in
with every aspect of humanitywithin yourself and within the
bigger picture.

(39:15):
And I love it.
So you're welcome to join me forthat.
It also by the time this goesout, is about a week before
Beltane Festival.
Which is just terrifying.
I cannot believe that it's sosoon.
At point of recording it's twoweeks away, but by the time this
comes out, it will be a weekaway.
If you want to come to that,there might be some tickets
left.
We are close to selling out, butit would be lovely for you to

(39:36):
come if you're able to, andprobably a bit late for you to
be deciding to come fromEngland, but you could try.
But if you are in Guernsey orSark, then please do come along.
It's gonna be amazing Burning aWicker man and dancing the Maple
and Morris Dancers and Mama'splays, and then a host of
wonderful bands in the evening.

(39:57):
Looking forward to that.
I can't wait.
I'm also looking forward to Theday.
Yeah, just having that fun onthe day.
I love Beltane.
It's my favorite day of theyear.
Don't tell the other days.
So that's gonna be great.
And then after that, towards theend of May is the beginning of
the witch fall.
You course.
And I.

(40:17):
Urge you to do this course.
If you are in any way interestedin the stuff that me and Howard
are talking about in thispodcast and can see or sense the
power of working with archetype,then do get involved, do come
and join for this deep dive andthis deep journey.
I'm really looking forward togiving myself over to this

(40:40):
cycle.
I do it every year and everyyear I learn something new and
I'm.
Yeah, I'm gonna rewrite a myththis time.
I'm gonna rewrite the story ofVenus where she bins off Mars
and gets together with Mercury.
That's what I'm gonna be doingthis time, so I'm gonna be
writing a myth, which feels likebig work.
So come join me if you're up fordoing some God-like level

(41:04):
archetypal work, really messingwith the matrix and.
Creating reality then come andget involved.
And yeah, there'll be otherthings happening throughout the
year, but that's it for now.
I will let you know as otherthings come up.
But yeah.
Exciting.
It's nearly summer.

(41:25):
back to the show,
I'm really, so I've started writing that book at the
moment and I'm really enjoyingit because it's just so trippy
and I'm writing it in a, in atrippy way.
So when I'm writing, I'm writingthe inner and outer world stuff.

(41:46):
So I started it with the firstbook where I've got the, the the
lines speak the ghosts of theplaces that I visit speak.
And so any of the things thatwere kind of in my imagination
that were in my inner world,I'm, I'm put into voice and
that's gonna just get weirderwith the next one.
But then I'm, it's gonna be funbecause what happened when we

(42:08):
did that route again coming backdown, you wouldn't, had the
funniest experience, you know,that day, the day where we went
over whatever that forest iswasn't a forest, that was just a
great big hill through the rainwhere when we were standing in
the wind, we were like at 45

Howard (42:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jolie (42:28):
But that route that, that day's walk.
No,

Howard (42:32):
cloud.

Jolie (42:33):
up than that.
It was when we had rods with usand we went up and over.
We had been at the farm with the

Howard (42:39):
it

Jolie (42:39):
the scything.

Howard (42:40):
okay.

Jolie (42:41):
Yeah.
And it was just crazy rain.
And we walked with our headsdown just 45 degrees into the
wind for like the whole day.
And sheep were hiding with usbehind that barn while we ate
our sandwiches and justabsolutely crazy.
was hilarious is, to me thatfeels like the most epic day of
wilderness walking of justabsolutely in the middle of
nowhere.

(43:01):
And it was so, like almost Lordof the Ringy.
Like that was just such a madexperience.
We went and did it again in thesunshine and the road and houses
were literally right next to us.
But

Howard (43:11):
I,

Jolie (43:12):
it'd been

Howard (43:12):
I know I

Jolie (43:13):
wet, we couldn't see'em

Howard (43:15):
with me when we did that, that route because we, we
stopped off at that point.
Two things happened there forme.
One was we were going, oh God,but what if we get lost?
And the couple of us said,there's an, a road.
Like just, just there.
It's, we were actually followingair raid and the second thing
was we stopped to try and find,'cause it was pissing down with
the rain and we stopped to tryand find something to eat.

(43:35):
Really wanted we all reallywanted to go to the toilet.
And there was like a chemical,do you remember that?
It was like a chemical toilet.
It's like, like a festivaltoilet in the middle of, it's
just like, okay, well that'sthat kind of magical thing.
Just the weirdest experience.
Just'cause it had like.

Jolie (43:53):
that when we did it this second time, that was all
totally, it just looked all theway through.
It looked like some footpathsbetween just where people lived.
It was so funny.
it made total sense that therewas chemical toilets though.
'cause there was just peopleeverywhere.
Like it was really funny.

Howard (44:11):
What that, was that the same?
Was that the day where we endedup, we tried to cross a stream
and then some of you actuallywent

Jolie (44:20):
that the same

Howard (44:20):
was that

Jolie (44:21):
it was And then we came down into Ray and then Yeah.
And that's when you went well itwasn't you, who was it?
Oh, it was di wasn't it?
He went wading across the

Howard (44:30):
riding right across it?
I, I decided to go back and go,kind of do a long way round road
because I was just like, this isso,

Jolie (44:37):
as well.
I think it was me.
And re followed you because wewere just like, we are too short
and small to We're gonna getswept

Howard (44:42):
and then there was

Jolie (44:43):
river.

Howard (44:43):
up to there and, and just had to walk and just being
Dill decided to walk through.

Jolie (44:49):
yeah, Jill just waded through it.
And then it turned out we were amile away down the road.
It, we just went insane.
Like there was moments of fullblown

Howard (44:59):
I,

Jolie (44:59):
That was,

Howard (45:00):
not surprisingly, I mean getting walking and, yeah, I
think it was, and I think that,well, you know, that what you
say about what, what does it doto you in terms of fall?
I mean that there's a sort of,the fall is in some ways insane.
You have to go to that insanitythat, and that changes you
because you realize, so for agesafterwards, I realize we can do
anything then, can't you?

(45:21):
I mean, if you can walk up thespine of the country, you can do
anything

Jolie (45:24):
Mm.

Howard (45:24):
and.
That space of the full, that'sone of the things I got out of
doing these and I hope I bettercome back and do, you know, I
haven't, I couldn't do last year'cause I,'cause my daughter got
married and this year I can't,'cause I'm writing up my PhD,
but I hope I better come backand do them again because there,
there's, there is somethingfreeing and freeing of the mind

(45:46):
and, and this not being, notdoing something normal.
I, I, many years ago I did theCamino Santiago cycling and I, I
had two weeks out from a massagecourse.
So I thought, oh, I'll do it.
I'll, I'll fly over with my bikeand then I'll, I'll and I'll

(46:06):
cycle.
It'll be fine.
I only have to do like 90kilometers a day and it'll be
all right.
And I did it and it was mad.
It was like totally insane.
And then I didn't know how I wasgonna get back when I got to
Santiago and I had a day to getback to, you know, my, my
airplane.
And I'd met this French familywho were cycling, but they were

(46:27):
sort of then taking their bikeson.
So I kept meeting them and they,they just said, oh, we'll drop
you off at Bill Battle.
So it's these magical, theseamazing, magical things that
happen when you put yourself outthere.
I remember you, you saying that,that your belief was, when we
started that program, you said,look, magic things will happen.
It will ha you know, stuff willhappen.
There will be times when yousleep in a ditch and that

(46:50):
happens.
But there will be times when.

Jolie (46:52):
though.

Howard (46:54):
The adventure.
Exactly.
And that is the fall, isn't it?
And that's, that's the thingthat the fall spends a lot of
time in the king's chamber, butwill say the stuff to the king
that no one else will, becausethe fall doesn't actually
matter.
If he gets kicked out and, andchucked into the pigs, they'll
just lie there

Jolie (47:09):
exactly.

Howard (47:10):
up at the stars and enjoying the aroma and knowing
that, that, that then, you know,that that world will turn, that
fortunes will turn and they'llbe back in the palace again.
And that is a, that's thefreedom isn't it?
Of, of that it's the freedom ofthe performer in some ways.
I think certainly performersthat perform in street theater
or in unusual places that we, wehave these experiences that you

(47:34):
couldn't pay to have.
You, you, you know, you, you endup in the most incredible
situations, like in palaces orperforming in these amazing
view.
And then the next day you are,you are sleeping rough and
you're fine with that becausethat's part of it.
It's actually part, you actuallywant both of those things

(47:54):
because it's what gives you a, akind of freedom from freedom.
Like you talk about on yourthings like freedom from the
matrix.
Isn't that, if you can, if youcan do those things, if you can
walk up the spine of the countrytrusting, you know, then

Jolie (48:10):
it is, it blows my mind.
It blows your mind, and thenafter a while it becomes.
Normal for miracles to happen,but it's not

Howard (48:16):
Yeah.

Jolie (48:17):
them for granted.
It's just like,

Howard (48:18):
Yeah.

Jolie (48:19):
that happened.
That's what happens.
And it is, it's, it'sextraordinary and it is that
thing that I love about it isthat humanity is so kind.
Like as much as we get told allthis awful stuff about the

Howard (48:32):
Yeah,

Jolie (48:32):
how bad it is, are just, they without fail blow my mind
of how generous and kind theyare.
And that's the thing I loveabout it.
Yeah.
I wanted to ask you, I can'tremember, I was just trying to

(48:54):
remember his name.
I think his name's Herbie.
There's a guy who works in Punchand Judy and he told me the
story of the original punch andJudy story that was like really
ancient right back, like theoriginal version of it that he
goes to ha to, he goes to helland then he ends up like, he
goes to the other world and endsup making the whole of the

(49:15):
universe disappear by accident.
Do you know anything about that?
I dunno that, oh

Howard (49:21):
I,

Jolie (49:21):
yeah.
I'm gonna have to put you intouch with him because I, when
he told me the story atGlastonbury last year he said
this was the original, so hegoes around London doing fake
tours.
Like he pretends that certainwindows is the window in
inspiration for Romeo and Julietand stuff like that.
And it's like a modern officewindow and stuff.
He just makes stuff up.
He's a brilliant fool and heknows Jonathan.

(49:43):
He's got a bald head with madprofessor hair.
and he's a street performer fromCovent Garden that's been doing
stuff there forever.

Howard (49:51):
I.

Jolie (49:51):
I'll definitely have to put you in touch with them.

Howard (49:53):
Punch came from PO and po, which is the Italian n from
Naples.
I think the mask from Napleswere born from a chicken egg.
So born out of a, out of an egg.
So'cause it po and egg is likechicken and so yeah, like poul,
like little chicken kind ofthing.
So I, I love that idea.

(50:14):
Like born from an egg, so afool, you know, I mean born
ridiculous birth story.
And that would make sense.
I mean, I, I,

Jolie (50:22):
I mean,

Howard (50:23):
so one of the things that my

Jolie (50:24):
things

Howard (50:25):
understanding of fall has done is changed a bit, my
understanding of punch and duty.
So I initially had this thingwhich I started to develop,
which is, I think punches likethe old, the, the archetype of
anarchy doesn't want anycontrol.
So if you look at the, the sortof different planes of that, the
first place is the domesticsituation.

(50:47):
Now my show doesn't havedomestic violence in it.
I think a lot of shows arechanging now.
'cause obviously it's populartheater, it changes with the
times.
But that doesn't mean thereisn't slapstick.
And it doesn't mean that thereisn't this sense that punch
rejects domestic any anything oflike, we've gotta do this.
I'm not gonna do that.
And then you get this social,which is the police and the
societal police and the Beatle.

(51:09):
And again, he goes, no, I'm nothaving, I'm not having any
control.
And he hits, hits them.
And the reason it's the hit is'cause if you've got.
The, the easiest way to get ridof a cup and keep the main
character is that, so the sslaps

Jolie (51:21):
Yeah.

Howard (51:21):
that comes before, and then the last bit is kind of
like the devil and the ghost,and that's your sort of, so
that's into your sort ofmetaphysical realm where again,
punch just goes, no, I'm nothaving So this ultimate kind of
archetype of anarchy, just no,I'm not having So domestic
control, societal control or, orexistential control.
It, it's, so I still thinkthat's the case, but now that

(51:44):
I've been doing fooling, I, Inow see that the bit, when I'm
in the front of the booth as me,that's that play that Jonathan
talks about.
This is the start, start justengaging with the audience,
playing about with them, gettingto know them, seeing what's
happened, taking someinformation from them.
Then the play board, which isthe, the sort of, you know, the

(52:07):
literary play board, I mean,that's the front of the stage.
That to me, that's the, the aplay.
So that's where

Jolie (52:12):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (52:13):
happens, which is, you know, punch and duty, and then
the baby, and then the policemanand blah, blah, blah, crocodile
and all that.
And they can turn and talk tothe audience.
So they still got thatconnection, but they're in a
play.
And then the play, which is thearchetypal, is me as a
puppeteer.
I'm, I'm channeling throughthis, this, these archetypes,

(52:34):
the archetype of the fall, thearchetype of the anarchist.
And that's that darken, youknow, I'm in a darkened space.
I'm seeing through a gate, a, a,a gaze, it feels very much that
that's my role.
And so I now understand it inthat full structure way.
And I, when I first started,because I mean punch is chaotic,
and I would have so much chaosin, in the booth Terry said, she

(53:00):
said that you, you, you need to,you need to do a prayer to
trickster.
You need to like talk totrickster and say, please put
the ca you know, you'll have,and I did it.
I did it.
And I said, look, you're gonnahave much more fun.
We'll, we'll both have more funif the chaos is in the book in
there, in the play board, ratherthan with me with stuff falling
down and swallows swallowingswale and things and touch.

(53:22):
Would I say this?
'cause I, trier is my kind of myguiding spirit in many ways.
Since then, mostly it has beenthere.
So the improvisation, the chaos,that talking to it's all been
out there where it should be.
And not so much in the booth,but that it's, it's a booth has
this kind of engine of chaos inthere and you have to allow it

(53:42):
to be channeled and you give ita channel which is out there.
And the, one of the main thingsI told the trickster is, look,
you like children's laughter andpeople's laughter.
You will get much more of it outthere if the chaos is there and
the fund's there.
Because the only, it is only methat can laugh at this in here
and I'm not laughing.
I'm really annoyed.
So yeah.

Jolie (54:02):
It's really funny you say that because my ex-husband's
surname was Booth, which is whyI was Jody Be, his archetype was
the trickster.
And he, it was all in the booth.
It was all in the booth, and hewas so punch, you know, he was
literally just like no toeverything and just complete
anarchist to everything and justrunning amok the whole time.

(54:22):
So, yeah.
That's hilarious.
It's really funny you said that.
I, it's interesting as well,having moved to Soc because
Jonathan saying, put it in theplay.
I've spent 20 years living inBrighton, which is really
liberated and, and you know atthe forefront of what you would
call Wokes and all the stuffthat like is just.
A, a given.

(54:43):
We are all on the same page in,in Brighton and then working in
theater where we are putting itall in the play and not doing it
all in the booth.
And now I live on an islandwhere it is just one nonstop
play, but just is all the dramais in our everyday lives.
Literally nonstop.
Honestly, it doesn't ever stop.
It's quite exhausting'causethere is no, oh, I'll just go

(55:05):
sit in a cafe and chill out.
There is none of that.
You go to a cafe and out ofnowhere, someone's at you about
something or something happensor da da da.
Like, you can't escape it.
there is no day off unless youhide in the house all day.
That's pretty much the only wayof it.
But it's fun, but you just gottago.
Right.
I'm in a play.
This is just a, a very largestage.

Howard (55:38):
So can I ask, so since I'm sort of partly interview,
can I ask you a question againgoing into this thing of, of how
were you aware when you firstcame in contact with falling of
what it was doing to yourpractice?
Like your, your performance and

Jolie (55:53):
yes, because I, yeah, I drew to it because of what I
already knew about it.
I was so I nearly drowned when Iwas 11 and that I had a near
death experience.
I was at tutor reenactment, so.
thought that a participant hadjumped in to save me, and then
it turned out a visitor hadsaved me who was behind me, and

(56:14):
no one in t costume had savedme.
So I had this bizarre experiencewhere I knew someone had come
for me and that I was okay, andlike I then relaxed and that's
when I blanked out very trippyfor days afterwards.
I was in a really weird lucidstate for days afterwards and
that was when I was 11, when Iwas 13, someone who was a pagan.

(56:36):
And I didn't know anything aboutthat at the time.
Came to me having heard thisstory and said to me, you've had
a shamanic experience.
You are a shaman.
And I was like, okay.
I was like into Nirvana and thelevelers and just had handed my
hair and thought that wasextremely cool.
And so I'd had that kind of saidto me and it did then set me off

(56:57):
on a more shamanic path that wasthen I'd looked into what that
was and started exploring itand.
I into standup comedy and was, Idid quite well at standup
comedy.
I went to Edinburgh.
I was in the Channel four ComedyAwards and the BBC comedy Awards
and went and performed at theGilded Balloon.
And so, like, the biggest gig Iever did was my first ever gig

(57:17):
at Edinburgh, and it's gonedownhill ever since.
And I just ended up in smaller,smaller venues.
But yeah, I was in this massivevenue, like, and, and did really
well and I really enjoyed it.
But there was something about itthat I couldn't put my finger on
that I didn't find comfortableabout it.
And then two things happened.
One was the, death andResurrection Show Book came to

(57:39):
me.
I don't remember how I cameacross that in the first place,
but also Clowns for Beginners.
Strangely, their name is JoeLee.
The person who wrote it, it wascalled Joe Lee.
And and it was this cartoon bookof Clowning for Beginnings.
And it's brilliant.
And it starts with the Shaman asthe superstar, the Showman.
And it works its way through andit links to Chaplain and Laurel

(57:59):
and Hardy and the Looney Tunesand all that stuff.
And at the same time, I got theDeath and Resurrection show, and
then got my mentor.
So this was like 20, 21.
I've moved to Brighton and Iwent on the New Deal with
Labored, like create the NewDeal for people on benefits.
And I said, I'm a theaterpractitioner.
I want to be a theaterpractitioner, which was
brilliant because they couldn'tjust like send you out of the

(58:22):
job center to go get a theaterpractitioner job.
So they're like, I'm gonna haveto just give you money until we
make that happen.
And they said, well, we've got amentor for you who's a theater
practitioner.
I was like, cool.
And it was this woman, AndreaBrooks, and she was teaching Ma
acting at E 15 for years.
She's just retired, but she wasteaching it there for years.
Absolutely brilliant.

(58:43):
The most witchy magical personI've ever met.
She's magical.
And she's the one that I wrotesisterhood with.
And I met her and we went for acoffee and she had this a four
sheet of paper and she wrote allthese things on it that then
became my life.
So she wrote

Howard (58:58):
Hm.

Jolie (58:58):
DeCastro clowning, and she wrote Jonathan K on there
and a bunch of other things.
And I went from that meeting andwent and did an Angela DeCastro
workshop, the why, why notinstitute?
And I did how to be a Stupid andthe New Deal filled in the form
to pay for me to go and trainhow to be a stupid.
And it was like, I can't believeI'm giving you money to learn
how to be a stupid.
I was like, this is brilliant.

(59:20):
And I went and did that and didquite a few trainings with her
and was part of a ha haharmonics clown choir with her.
And through that I met JohnJordan, Created the Reclaim the
Streets movement.
And we were talking about howyou could use clown as protest
and how far you could go withit.
you could go to prison stayingin clown, we were like, you

(59:42):
could really use this.
So we then started using clownas protest and we created a
protest group called theClandestine Insurgent Rebel
Clown Army Circa, which thenwent viral, that went worldwide
and we'd created like a trainingfor it.
And then that just wenteverywhere.
And Coogie was one of the army.

(01:00:02):
So she'd done the training andshe was now someone who trained
other people to become RebelClowns.
So that went off and did that.
And then I went and did theJonathan training, but I already
was working with his daughterand Daisy Campbell Ken
Campbell's daughter.

Howard (01:00:19):
All right.

Jolie (01:00:19):
Ken Campbell's.
Do you know about Ken Campbell?

Howard (01:00:23):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:00:24):
Yeah.
his daughter Daisy and Poppyboth lived in Brighton and me
and Daisy and Poppy used to puton cabarets together and did
work together.
And it was through that thatJonathan had lost his
administrator.
He'd had one of these momentswhere everyone had buggered off
and left him and he had nothing.
He was starting from scratchagain.
And Poppy said, well, Jolie doesadministration.
'cause I was doing that on theside to kind of make my, make my

(01:00:45):
money.
And he came to me and said,would you be up for supporting
me with tour?
Creating a tour?
And then we talked about hewanted to have people he could
perform with on the stage.
And I said, well, the thing isit takes, it takes a long time
for anyone to learn how to workwith you.
So then I said, well, what aboutif we create a school?

(01:01:07):
rather than trying to create atheater company that you are
then teaching, if it's a schoolthat people pay to come to, then
out of that you'll then end upwith people who can perform with
you on the stage.
And so that's how we came upwith the Academy

Howard (01:01:20):
another,

Jolie (01:01:21):
And so Noah, yeah.
And then ran that for a coupleof years.
So I worked with him for acouple of years just touring
him.
And then we got the academygoing with the help of Batey Art
Center and

Howard (01:01:31):
so how did, how

Jolie (01:01:32):
people

Howard (01:01:32):
impact your actual, like your thinking on what, like your
performance,

Jolie (01:01:37):
well, so initially I wasn't performing.
Initially I was, I was an outer,I was in the outer world with
it, with him.
then, and then I asked whether Icould join and I joined in with
it.
And the, the thing that had notsat right with me, with, the
standup comedy, which I thenrealized was that it was very

(01:01:57):
masculine and it was very outworld.
It was almost like it was an egocompetition of like trying to be
the funniest and the banter andall of that.
There wasn't the heart, therewasn't the emotional connection,
and there wasn't the archetypeat all in standup comedy.
I think it can be there, likeBill Hicks is very archetypal,
like it can be there, but thatwas the thing that was jarring

(01:02:18):
with me.
And so when I then worked withJonathan and sunk into it, it
was like there's a differencebetween telling a joke and being
a joke able to laugh at yourselfin a universal way where you're
like, this is, this is myfoibles.
This is how I, this is my junk.
And, and I see this junk in you.
And then I can see that, youknow, you are understanding it

(01:02:40):
and that means I can bevulnerable with you.
And then the audience are happyto be vulnerable and open up.
And it's that.
Connection and then, I mean, itthen just goes so infinite.
I mean, once you start, once youare in that space and you're
connecting with that space,feels like, I mean, know, I can
get to the point where I'm like,I think the whole, the whole

(01:03:02):
thing's a play.
So when I'm saying that so's aplay, I think the whole thing's
a play.
And that's why I'm interestedand keen on the, the archetype
exploring, because that's like,well, what's my part in this
play?
What, what lineage am I part ofthat I'm here?
What's the mask that I representhere on earth?
then how I, far you can go withthe whole create or be created.

(01:03:27):
So for me, it is in myperformance, but my performance
is very much in the outer world.
Like, I feel like I do more ofeveryday life disrupting than I
do come and see me do aperformance.
I don't really do that much.
Even when we do the Mamas plays,it's us disrupting reality by
turning up

Howard (01:03:47):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:03:47):
at your town and village and going, look at this bunch of
weirdos and we're gonna do aplay.
And it just makes people go, allright, reality isn't this fixed
construct.
So yeah, for me it's very muchkind of flowing that

Howard (01:03:59):
So, yeah.
So

Jolie (01:04:00):
the outer.

Howard (01:04:02):
that for me is that kind of, that way that it starts to
make your in and outer world.
I, I was listening to some ofyour early podcasts, you talk
about that kind of sphincter,like loosening it so that inner
and out world starts becomingless tight.
So you, you, you are, I meanthat's my experience and it's
experience I think of quite alot of other falls, is that the.

(01:04:24):
So I got this from, from Mia,our mask maker, Ninian Kne
Wilson, who's dead now.
Unfortunately, he's a superbmask maker, massive biker who
used to ride a Harley Davidson.
When I first met him.
I was terrified of him.
He's the nicest guy he couldever met.
And that he said that comediais, isn't, it's not a theater
form, it's a way of life.

Jolie (01:04:43):
Yeah.

Howard (01:04:44):
And that really stuck with me.
It's like touring with people,setting up your stage in someone
else's space, the sun going downthe stage.
You eat on the stage, you lie onthe stage, perform on the stage,
and then you pack it away.
So you are carrying this sacredspace around, but it's also
quite it's sacred and profane.
It's like all of those things.
And it's not, it, it's, it's notfor everyone because that thing

(01:05:07):
of, you know, sometimes we wouldbe put up in hotels amazing.
And other times we'd just besleeping in the van on the stage
and having to get drunk in orderto fall asleep because it's so
uncomfortable.
And then the next reason reallyuncomfortable.
And then so that, that kind ofway of life thing.
So I think that's something Ifound with the fall is, is that,

(01:05:27):
and what's interesting is howmuch people seem to either be
drawn to it.
Like you, I think a lot of usare drawn to it because we're
already sort of doing that.
And then suddenly you come upwith a teacher, in our case,
Jonathan, but you know, Frankieor, or other people teaching you
who start to give you a a like,well what if you, what if you
take what you've got there?

(01:05:47):
And think of it this way andstart doing it that way.
And it suddenly opens up thatpossibility and the possibility
of, of this u kind of unity,isn't it?
I mean, it's like the, thatdisruptor that, you know, the
four being the mirror, the the,and the sense of which I, I, I
go in and outta this.
I, I lose this quite a lot of,of, but every now I come to it

(01:06:10):
is exactly that thing that youcan create your life and you,
you're allowed to, there's a,and actually not allowed to, but
you are doing it.
It's happening.
So

Jolie (01:06:19):
yeah,

Howard (01:06:19):
have sovereignty because we're sovereign beings and we
create, we are naturallycreative.
It's just so many of us fallinto patterns that are told to
us

Jolie (01:06:32):
yeah,

Howard (01:06:32):
from somewhere else.
And that breaking out of those,it's not to say break out the
patterns.
'cause actually look, as yousay, it's like just being aware
of the patterns.
You might be in it,

Jolie (01:06:42):
yeah,

Howard (01:06:43):
but you can break out of it even while you're in the
band.
As long as you recognize it, aslong as you're aware of it, you
can then start playing with it,

Jolie (01:06:50):
yeah.
it's fractal.
So the thing that I'm having atthe moment in the government,
because I'm in the governmenthere in s.
And I'm

Howard (01:06:57):
Hmm.

Jolie (01:06:58):
so I can't go fight Trump.
I'd love to, but I can't.
But I have tendrils of hisarchetype on the island in the
government with me, so I can't.
There's no point in me spendingany energy worrying about Trump
But what I can do face, head onthe fake news and the, the lies
and the bullying that is, andthe fascism that is occurring in

(01:07:21):
front of me.
it's like a root on a tree.
So if I you know, if there'sthis fungal attack happening on
this root in front of me, by mestopping that, by me fighting
that, that then sends a messageup the whole of the tree.
And so it's kind of just dealingwith what's in your pixel.
That's the thing that I oftendescribe it as is there's the
bigger picture and you have yourpixel and you can affect the

(01:07:44):
pixels around you.
And it was a, an indigenousleader who did a speech at the
museum association meeting onceI was there with the Museum of
Ordinary people.
And he was saying that for ashoulder of fish change
direction, and I can't remembernow whether it was 2% or 10%,
whatever it was, it was apercentage, but it wasn't the
whole, it wasn't the wholeshoal.
Same as the murmuration.

(01:08:04):
You only need a percentage tochange direction before the
whole thing does.
if you've got a pixel, you knowyou are pixel in a bigger
picture.
But if you change your pixel andthen that affects the ones
around it.
The whole picture will change.

Howard (01:08:19):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:08:19):
we are literally making the whole thing up.
And yes, there are scientificthings, but even that gets weird
and, and you know fuzzy at theedges.
You know, it's

Howard (01:08:31):
Oh.

Jolie (01:08:31):
it's only things that are in focus in the middle.
Like it's fuzzy.
The,

Howard (01:08:34):
I mean, there's nothing,

Jolie (01:08:35):
is fuzzy.
Yeah.

Howard (01:08:37):
what we know is there's nothing else to be solid.

Jolie (01:08:39):
Exactly.
And so

Howard (01:08:41):
is energy frequency.

Jolie (01:08:42):
for and and

Howard (01:08:43):
And I think, yeah, I think it's,

Jolie (01:08:45):
do it.
Yeah.
Just go for it.
Like

Howard (01:08:47):
my,

Jolie (01:08:47):
Go for it.

Howard (01:08:48):
my, my response to this that, that I've been taking on
board is that every timesomething comes up like that,
you know, political stuff, I'mfirst of all, I'm trying to
ignore as much as possible.
'cause I think giving them anytime is what they need.
Whether it's you getting enragedor not,

Jolie (01:09:04):
Exactly.

Howard (01:09:05):
that's fine for them because it's just attention.
It's just energy.
So trying not to give themattention, but also every time
there's something reallyterrible, rather than getting
enraged, although I do getenraged, is to, it's like the
answer is always love, isn't it?
The answer is always to connect.
Like you say, with people thatyou can connect with.
Go and make that phone call.

(01:09:25):
You haven't done for a while.
Tell a friend with me, I connecta lot with my mum at the moment
with that.
It's like, well, I'm gonna carewith my mom.
That's what I'm gonna do.
When all we, we planted fivewhen Russia and invade Ukraine,
we planted five apple trees inthe garden as our peace orchard.
It's like we can do those thingsand eventually all those things,

(01:09:49):
you know, you do something here,you do something there, and
eventually they're gonna joinup, aren't they?
And eventually, if we all dothat.
We are more, you know, that thatis a more powerful thing.
It, it takes, it's, it's easierto destroy than create, but
ultimately creation is stronger.

Jolie (01:10:04):
mm

Howard (01:10:04):
I mean, it has to be and

Jolie (01:10:06):
Yeah, it is.
Although evil's proactive,that's one of the things that

Howard (01:10:10):
yeah.

Jolie (01:10:10):
annoying because when you are just going about your
everyday life, you are notpaying attention, which is why
evil is always able to takeadvantage because you are just
going about your everyday life,not taking any notice.
And they are taking notice andgoing if I do this and I do

Howard (01:10:26):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:10:27):
can get this result and I can manipulate the situation.
yeah, there is an element ofthat.
But then I guess there's Isuppose what, what we are both
saying is it's about beingproactive in creating other
stuff and that, and like you sayit, planting a tree to someone
who's proactively doing evil inthe world, that doesn't make any
sense.

(01:10:47):
And also they're like, and how'sthat meant to affect me?
But they don't see that it does,

Howard (01:10:51):
Don't see it.
And for me it's, it's like in,I'm planting it.
'cause in 30 years time when I'mno longer here either'cause I'm
no longer here or'cause I'm nolonger here there'll be people
sitting under that tree andthat's, you know, having apples
or.

Jolie (01:11:04):
because I put up a, I don't haven't, I don't really
put things up political on, onsocial media because I don't
want the algorithms to knowstuff about me.
But I did put up one the otherday that was years from now, we
are all going to agree that wedidn't agree with this.
And I just thought that was sospot

Howard (01:11:22):
Yeah,

Jolie (01:11:23):
And,

Howard (01:11:23):
yeah,

Jolie (01:11:24):
the trees, I, I think, are an indication of that.
'cause they'll be there in 30,40 years time when we all agree
we didn't agree with it.
And

Howard (01:11:31):
yeah.

Jolie (01:11:31):
is living proof that some people didn't agree with it and
it was

Howard (01:11:35):
Mm.

Jolie (01:11:35):
their silent protest in a place, in a time where they
weren't really able to vocallynecessarily say things without
that being possibly a dangerousthing to do.
You know?
'cause that's how I'm, I mean,I, I'm doing it with the
podcast.
I'm like, well I already kind ofstuck my stake in the ground, so
gonna get burnt by it.
There's

Howard (01:11:49):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:11:50):
can do about it.

Howard (01:11:50):
Well, I love it.
I love that.

Jolie (01:11:52):
now.

Howard (01:11:53):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:11:54):
scary now, like,

Howard (01:11:55):
nonsense in the chaos.
I know.
It is a scary time.
And I've, I'm not massively intoastrology as such, but I'm, I do
listen to quite a lot ofastrologers and they, they've
been talking for a while thatthis is a, a time, and the other
thing that, that they advise todo is to ground, like

Jolie (01:12:12):
Yeah.

Howard (01:12:12):
there's so much energy going on that people that are
aware of it, one of the thingswe can do is ground it because
we need to be grounding this.
And actually, you know, thenonsense in the chaos, the ca we
all knew that that actuallystuff needed to be changed.

Jolie (01:12:32):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (01:12:33):
You know, the normal, as we found after lockdown, we
going back to that as normal,that that wasn't, that wasn't
good.

Jolie (01:12:40):
Mm.

Howard (01:12:40):
So we know it needs to change.
And change always has this chaosin it

Jolie (01:12:45):
Yeah.
Of course.

Howard (01:12:47):
How, and keeping, keep, trying to find a way of keeping
belief, love, all these things.
That is how the most likely waythat this will turn out well is
if we do that.
There's,

Jolie (01:13:01):
Yeah,

Howard (01:13:01):
there's something that always says as well, which is
that there was some people whoare not meant to be on the front
lines.
People are meant to be makingsoup and you know, art is making
soup because it's, it's doing,you know, all the things that
you are talking about in, in ourart, in, in ways.
Even if it's going and justsaying, Hey, we, we could, we
could this is a car park, but itcould be a theater space and

(01:13:22):
look, we can show, you can be atheater space.
Even that just saying, oh, youthen when people go back, they
go, oh, they, that there was atheater space there Once it, it,
it's breaking that, thatconception of, of architecture
and all that sort of normal thatsays this is, this is a car
park.
Well, yeah, but it doesn't haveto be,

Jolie (01:13:41):
But it

Howard (01:13:42):
it can be whatever want,

Jolie (01:13:43):
yeah.

Howard (01:13:45):
you know.

Jolie (01:13:46):
and you can't touch the floor quick.

Howard (01:13:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.

Jolie (01:13:50):
And it is the, you need people to be bringing joy and
you also need storytellers to bedisrupting the narrative because
they're

Howard (01:13:56):
Yeah.

Jolie (01:13:57):
narrative that they want us to believe in.
there have to be people that go.
And also there are otheralternative narratives is not
just

Howard (01:14:05):
Yes.

Jolie (01:14:06):
Yeah.
It's not just this

Howard (01:14:07):
Other options that you can, yeah, exactly.
So that was the unbelievablyawesome Howard Gaton.

(01:14:28):
And I could have, I mean, I justsat there listening to this,
editing it, and I was completelylost in the conversation.
And then it came to an end and Iwas like, oh, oh, I could have
listened to that forever.
And I literally could havetalked to Howard forever.
that is the initial preamblechat.
We didn't get as far as thepulling cards, but we have a

(01:14:49):
whole.
Additional podcasts of uspulling the cards and discussing
the chaos crusade watch thisspace and you'll hear more from
Howard.
I hope you enjoyed that.
I really enjoyed listening to itand editing it.
He's absolutely awesome and sucha rich, juicy conversation.
There was so much in there thatI was just, yeah, like inspired

(01:15:12):
to listen back to and.
I love talking about art, likereally getting in there to the
nuts and bolts.
Talking about art is probably myfavorite thing in the world to
do.
I remember once hearing amusician going, I only want to
talk about music.
I'm only interested in talkingabout music.
And I was like, oh, I can'treally do that.
'cause I dunno much about music,but I do know what he means.

(01:15:32):
'cause when it comes to talkingabout art, I could just do it
all day long.
So I hope that you enjoyed thattea and that that's, even if
this isn't your world, thatthere's some interesting glimmer
and insight into exploring orlooking into the parallel
universe of.
A pair of artists discussingtheir art and whether that has,

(01:15:53):
um, been insightful orinteresting.
I hope so.
I found it really interesting.
That's why it went on for solong.
thank you ever so much for beinghere, and we'll be back next
week and until then, I shall seethe anon in.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

Dateline NBC

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#35 Praying to Trickster; Howard Gayton and the power of Mask (Pt1)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2

Dateline NBC

NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal

All Episodes

#35 Praying to Trickster; Howard Gayton and the power of Mask (Pt1)

Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2