#37 Praying to Trickster; Howard Gayton and the power of Mask (Pt2)

This week’s episode of Nonsense in the Chaos is the follow-up episode in a two-part offering, born from a rich, two-hour conversation with my dear friend and fellow fool, Howard Gayton. In this half we pull the cards and discuss the topics that the universe leads us to. 

Howard and I connected properly during a 500-mile pilgrimage from London (or, as Howard rightly points out, Henley) to COP26 in Glasgow—though in truth, we stopped walking in Edinburgh.

Howard Gayton has worked for over thirty years as a theatre director, performer, and teacher specialising in Commedia dell'Arte and other forms of mask theatre, as well as puppetry, foolery and folk drama. His work is inspired by all manner of mythic tricksters, zanni figures and sacred clowns, as well as by the use of masks in drama and sacred rituals the world over.

In this deliciously layered chat, we explore the Trickster archetype through the lens of fooling, drawing on the historical threads of Commedia dell’Arte and the slapstick world of Punch and Judy. I could have talked to Howard forever—and very nearly did. I hope you enjoy our creative musings.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email [e-mail] or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

Episode Transcript

(00:31):
The.

(00:55):
Welcome to The Nonsense in theChaos.
I'm your host, Jaylee Rose.
This week we are going to headback to the conversation that I
was having with Howard, in thishalf we are pulling the cards,
but you'll see that we still gooff into more.
Deep conversations about foolingand what, what it means to be a
fool I love talking to Howardbecause we go really deep.

(01:17):
And so I think this is afantastic chat and worth sharing
all of it with you.
can probably hear from my voiceand from the quality of the
recording that I'm doing thisslightly on the hoof today.
I've been putting on the BeltaneFestival over the weekend and
had to do a lot of shouting overtorrential rain.
It was a real shame that itrained so hard on the day, but
we did well and we had a greatweekend.

(01:39):
It was so much fun.
It's been one of the toughestweeks, weeks of my life, but
it's been amazing.
And so I'm a bit broken and I'mnot able to be quite as set up
in the recording studio as I'dlike to be.
So, without forever deal, I'mgonna put us back to Howard,
where it's a much better qualityrecording than this.
So thank you ever so much, andI'll see you on the other side.

Jolie (02:06):
I'm gonna do the cards So we'll do three cards.
And this is setting the thechaos of the universe.
Choose from us, right.
So I'm gonna go like that andyou tell me when to stop.

Howard (02:17):
I stop there.
Yeah, stop.
Yeah.

Jolie (02:21):
Got you.

Howard (02:21):
Yeah, that one.
Yeah.

Jolie (02:23):
Okay.
This is defeat, which is

Howard (02:26):
Oh God.

Jolie (02:26):
of swords.

Howard (02:28):
Wow.

Jolie (02:28):
it's not a reading, it's just what does

Howard (02:30):
No,

Jolie (02:31):
to you?
What does defeat mean to you?

Howard (02:33):
I think, well, I think what it means to me at the
moment, what it speaks to me isthat I, I, it's easy for me to
go into that.
I've just been thinking aboutthis today, is how, how easy is
it to, to be defeated, to giveup.
And I, I know that I can beprone to that, but I have the

(02:55):
other side of that, which isthis, this thing of like, well,
I'm not going, I'm not gonnagive up.
You know, like the pilgrimage.
You wake up four weeks in andyou're knackered and it's
raining, and you, your feetache.
And you could say, I'm not gonnacarry on.
Which is in a sense, defeat bedefeated by something, but.

(03:19):
To just, to just go, well, okay,but I'm gonna carry on sort of
past that kind of defeat.
And I think that is somethingfor me that is, is kind of, you
talk about the, the sort ofarchetypes of self that I, I
balance those two partly'causeI'm bipolar, so I have this and
my bipolar is sadly in some waysmore the depression than the

(03:40):
mania.
I do have a mania side, but Ihave quite in the past, been
much more depressed.
And I used to have this image,what I have always done is kind
of like, there's always been apoint in the depression where
you, you've got a choice.
You either go, well that's it,I'm fucked, and that's it.

(04:00):
And then which you can do, butthen that's then what?
Or you go, oh, right, well okaythen now, now that doesn't
really matter.
So I just, you just, so I usedto have this image of a cork
going down.
There's some point when thecork, when you push it down, it
goes, whoa.
And goes up the other way.
And that's, that for me is thatcreative thing.
Taking that creativity out ofthat, that finding, which isn't

(04:23):
to, which isn't to ignore allthe stuff that's been there.
'cause that's, that is, I meanit's like in fooling isn't it?
The, the, the juices in thesecret sacred scar and scared
it's in the juice of theater isin tho those, those bits that,
that are hard, that kind ofdefeat us.
Yeah.

(04:43):
I think that's what it feelslike.
It's saying to me.

Jolie (04:46):
Yeah.
I love that.
Thank you.
That's beautiful.
Yeah, it's, it's very hard atthe moment to not feel defeated
by everything, and it'sexhausting and it does this
thing of time going faster.
I feel like since we came out oflockdown, it's

Howard (05:02):
Yeah,

Jolie (05:04):
and I do feel I'm, I'm, I'm sick of it and moved to this
island thinking I was gonna havea quiet life.
And it's not, it's just as busyor it's busier.
I feel busier here than I did inthe uk,

Howard (05:14):
I, I honestly can't imagine what it's like living in
a city at the moment.
'cause I live out, you know, asyou know, on the edge of
Dartmore, it feels like life isa boom boom.
And it's great.
It's good.
It's partly'cause I'm doingloads of stuff, but it's,
there's like every, every taturn around and go, oh, I've
gotta do that now.
I've gotta do that now.
And I can't imagine what it'slike being in a city where,
where it's already hyper.

Jolie (05:34):
already,

Howard (05:35):
But yeah, I,

Jolie (05:36):
dealing with this and you've got sirens and you've got
like,

Howard (05:39):
yeah,

Jolie (05:40):
nonstop people and all their energy.
Yeah.
Well, you've got a really strongcommunity in Chadfield as well,
haven't you?

Howard (05:46):
I mean, sort of it is, I, I, I don't engage with it
all, all the time, just'cause Ican't.
Terry does a lot more than me.
But yeah, there's so much goingon.
It sounds a bit, it's, it's abit like you talk about with
Start, where we've got all thesedifferent people all getting on.
All, all types.
And we have, I think we're quitelucky'cause I think we often

(06:07):
have people who've sort ofretired early from the city
moving down and they have quitea lot of money and skills and
they decide to organize stuff.
So they're not, they're doingexactly what in a sense, you
know, do you remember the bigsociety that Cameron talked
about?
It was like, yeah.
Big, which is great.

(06:27):
It works in Cha Ford becauseyou've got lots of people who've
got the time and the money to itdoesn't work if you're, if
you're struggling to actuallyexist.
So, you know, that's ridiculous.
When, when it can work.
And that's, I mean, that seemsto me that's what we ought to be
aiming for everywhere is just togive some places need, need to
be given resources to be able todo this, which is this thing of

(06:49):
everybody pitching in, everybodybeing able to, you know, you
organizing festivals, everybodycoming along to it and having
that thing that brings societytogether brings us all together
so that we are sharingexperiences and community
experiences.
So music days here, there,there's film festival, book
festivals.

(07:10):
There's in Morton Hamstead,there's Conval, there's just,
there's this sense that we aretrying to be community

Jolie (07:18):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (07:19):
and there's lots of different bits of community and
they all kinda speak to eachother.
And it's great when it works andit, it can work.
You know, there's proof of thatthat I think it needs to be in
smaller, it works in smallerthings, but, you know, cities do
and used to, I lived for a whilewhen I was younger in Brixton
with my theater partner Jeff, ina, there's like gay community

(07:43):
there.
And that was a community inBrixton.
There was this whole road thatwas like a community.
They, they supported each other.
They, you know, helped eachother financially sometimes by,
you know, helping jobs go round.
They helped each other withemotional support when things
were sort of hard in, in, inthat, you know, before sort of

(08:06):
the, the labor government got inand changed all the, all the
rules around, you know, clause28 and all that kind nonsense.
So the,

Jolie (08:15):
So

Howard (08:15):
you, you can get'em, you used to get'em in London in some
of the old neighborhoods aswell, like in the East end and
that, that, so it's thatcommunity, isn't it?
Thing of, I, I don't always knoweverybody in town, but I know
what they look like, so I alwayssay hello to them if I'm on my
way and they know, you know, I,I know the faces, so there's a
sense that I know my neighbors'cause I'll say hello to them

Jolie (08:40):
It

Howard (08:40):
and that,

Jolie (08:41):
I love it.
'cause Brighton was a realcommunity as well.
It was a city

Howard (08:43):
yeah.

Jolie (08:44):
city.
It feels like we're all in thesame gang.
I've lived in London inLewisham, which had a community
and black heath, which had acommunity.
yeah, I do think we do, we dofind it.
And we do make it.
It's, it is something that thatthe powers that be do wanna
destroy because people are moreinherently socialists the more

(09:05):
community you are.

Howard (09:06):
Yeah.

Jolie (09:06):
got

Howard (09:06):
Yeah.

Jolie (09:07):
who are complete libertine and who are real
Tories, but we look after eachother here.
And so there is actually an, anelement of social care and
social, you know, socialismbecause we're taking care of
each other.
We're But yeah, it's in a slightho way that we are doing it
here.
There isn't the power structureslike forcing it, it's just us
doing it, our throwing backs.

(09:27):
But people are so kind, likeeven neighbors that you might
argue with or not get on with,if they knew you were ill or
there was some reason why youcouldn't get outta the house,
they'd bring you food, they'dbring you things, you know,
they'd look

Howard (09:38):
Right

Jolie (09:39):
So it just feels like a dysfunctional family.
Like we're all arguingconstantly.
But you don't like pick on my,you know, pick on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No one start on us.

Howard (09:51):
fool.

Jolie (09:53):
Yeah, exactly.
She's awful.
I love it.
It is magical.
But yeah, like I say, it's afull-time play.
right.
Let's do another

Howard (10:02):
Right.
I'm gonna go for the very frontone

Jolie (10:20):
this

Howard (10:21):
this end.

Jolie (10:21):
one,

Howard (10:22):
The other one.
That one.
Yeah.

Jolie (10:24):
Uhhuh.
It's the hanged man.

Howard (10:27):
Oh, the hang man.
Ah, interesting.

Jolie (10:30):
So

Howard (10:30):
Oh, there's so much.

Jolie (10:31):
mean to you?
He's sort of

Howard (10:34):
Well that is,

Jolie (10:35):
fool is stepping off the cliff into the unknown in a

Howard (10:38):
yeah.
It's also because he comes from,from, you know, the, the oh,
what's his name?
He hung for Odin, wasn't it?
Who hung upside down for

Jolie (10:47):
Yeah.

Howard (10:48):
Yeah.
That I think for me, the hangedman is, it, is that upside down
shamanic initiation.

Jolie (10:58):
Yeah,

Howard (10:59):
It's

Jolie (10:59):
Yeah.

Howard (11:00):
The, and you know, it is interesting you say your
initiation into that was nearlydying.
So there's so many stories.
The mythical stories are, are ofshaman who, who go out and they
get their skin peed off them andthen their bones destroyed.
They, you know, that the, the,the mythic stories of shaman are

(11:21):
that they get destroyed.
Oh, like Jesus,

Jolie (11:23):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Howard (11:25):
bones dead and then come back together.
That there's always a sense ofdeath and going into the
underworld and being, look yousaid right at the start of this
thing that coming out from theunderworld and being the ones
that go, how the hell did you dothat?
And I go, well, I'll tell you.
This is what I did.
And I think that, that there isan element.

(11:46):
I actually had, I, very earlyon, I, I was quite intrigued by
that idea of the, the sort ofthe, the artist that was.
You know, like the poets who areall depressed and everything's
terrible and their life'sterrible and they bring their
art out of that.
And I think there's something inthat, but there's also, I think,
yeah, there's other times whereyou think, oh, you don't need
that.
But, but to go through some ofthose processes of being broke,
broken down, I think first ofall, it, it gives you more

(12:09):
empathy.
And empathy is actually a thingupon which the Western
civilization is based, is whatlife's based on.
So it gives you empathy becauseyou, under you, you, you have,
you understand, you've beenthere somewhere before and there
seems to be something likealmost spiritually breaking

(12:30):
down.
So you talk about ayahuasca andI had a, when the first year I
went out to Arizona, I was takento a peyote ceremony, medicine
ceremony.
It's completely a whole nightwith peyote, not dancing,
sitting on the floor around thefire people singing and praying
and, and it's quite an endurancething.

(12:51):
And a lot of the, the NativeAmerican sermon is a very
endurance heavy.

Jolie (12:58):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.

Howard (12:59):
So Terry's did a lot of vision quests.
I did one when I came back over,she did them out in Arizona,
placed out in the desert.
Four days, no, not even water.
Whereas the ones I did here, wehave water, no food, no water.
And she said the, the, thepeople.
Like West Westerners would cometo the medicine and say, oh,
well I, I dunno if I could dofour days, can I do two days?
And he'd say, well, you can, butyou're not gonna, you're not

(13:21):
going to get to where you needto go.
And they'd say, why?
And he'd say, because it,'causeit takes four days to go to the
spirit world.
So you can do three days, butyou're not gonna get to the
spirit world because you haveto, you know, you have to be
breaking down process.
And in that breaking down, Ithink it does link into falling.
You know, the circle plays a, abit like that.
So breaking of that e, thatthing that keeps us attached to

(13:43):
being us for that time.
You can reconstruct, but youneed to better go beyond that.
And for some of us, it's reallyhard because we've been so
programmed into that.
For me, I get it in masks.
That mask day, the very firsttime I got on a mask, it's like
suddenly there's this otherworld that exists and I want to
know more about that.

(14:03):
I want to know more about thatarchetype of world.
And that, so that hangman, Ithink is that, that what, no,
the pilgrimage, what, what didit do to us to get up to cop to
do that?
It's, it's is transformative.
'cause you've, you have beenbroken down and then you have to

(14:25):
put

Jolie (14:26):
we, we did have such a strong archetypal presence at
Cop, like it was

Howard (14:30):
Yeah.

Jolie (14:31):
the presence that we had.
I remember one point where wewere crossing the street and we
were in our garb.
I had my sheep skull on a stick,and we were crossing the street
and there was two indigenousleaders walking across the other
way in their traditionalclothes.
And they just walked past andjust nodded, nodded at us, like
just a complete, like, oh.

Howard (14:51):
Because that energy's in there, isn't it?

Jolie (14:53):
Yeah.
We had the presence of the, theland in us, and yeah, we'd been
broken down.
And it, it, when I do ayahuasca,when I talk about the sphincter,
the first day is always metussling with my ego and trying
to get free of it, trying to letgo of it.
And then there is this momentwhere it does feel like you slip

(15:15):
through the egg timer it feelslike a, a mini death.
I think like when you die, youwill have to capitulate and
surrender in that same way.
And there's this moment whereyou then flop through, and then
you are, you're there.
And it just, it's so once you'rethere, it's like, oh, why was
that so difficult?

Howard (15:33):
Yeah.
Well, I do, yeah.

Jolie (15:36):
and it's so nice

Howard (15:36):
I had,

Jolie (15:37):
But it's that feeling of going through it.
It's just hell,

Howard (15:40):
I think I had that

Jolie (15:41):
a death.

Howard (15:42):
so much in, in, in that first pilgrimage.
I think I was struggling a lot.
But when, when I did my one inSantiago, I, I set out by
cycling up route the Napoleonicroute, cross Pyrenees.
And I, I did it'cause my friend,a friend had done it before and
I thought he would've gone upthat route.
He didn't, he went up an easyone'cause he, he's not an idiot.
And I went up it, I was at thetop of the Pyrenees with my bike

(16:05):
having basically pushed thisbike with the stuff like that
and suddenly.
The night was coming down and Irealized genuinely, if I don't
get to the monastery in RonVAAs, I'm gonna die because
it's, fuck, it's really coldnow.
And I had to, on this bike dirttrack that I was hardly able to

(16:25):
see.
I had to just not put my brakeson and trust.
I wasn't gonna hit a rock and gooff.
And just as the sun was setting,I got to the monastery and that
was that kind of like, whoa.
That was effectively a neardeath experience.
If I'd been five minutes later,I wouldn't have been able to see
the path.
I would not, I didn't have, youknow, I had a tent, but I didn't

(16:46):
have any stuff and it was reallycold.
It's like October.
So that, that sort of breakingdown, I think is a, it seems to
be an important part of thatshamanic process.

Jolie (16:58):
yeah,

Howard (16:58):
And it is that ego full does the same thing, the stuff
that Jonathan does, I think, andother teachers are, but Jonathan
particularly is like the veryfirst, that's what I did with
him.
He was saying something overhere, like in my face, and I
turned around and I swear he wasstraight there.
He was like, I was trying to getaway from him and he, you just
couldn't, you, wherever youturned, he would be there.

(17:20):
His face kind of in your face

Jolie (17:22):
God,

Howard (17:23):
forcing you to

Jolie (17:24):
always say

Howard (17:24):
of face.

Jolie (17:25):
like, I feel like I'm, you know, there's butterflies
pinned to boards.
I just feel like I'm pinned tothe board through my ego, and
it's so painful.
It's like a light saber pingoing through my ego and I can't
get away from it.
And

Howard (17:40):
Yeah.

Jolie (17:41):
so painful and I do love it and I also hate it.

Howard (17:47):
Yeah

Jolie (17:47):
yeah, I mean, it's invaluable and it's so hard.
I haven't actually gone and doneanything with him for a while.
And I know I, I know that thecalling is calling to me again I

Howard (17:57):
I have the same.

Jolie (17:58):
it.
I need to go and have my asskicked again.
But just part of me is like, ohGod, I really don't want to,

Howard (18:04):
It's hard, isn't it?
It's hard,

Jolie (18:06):
I do as well.
You know, I'm ready

Howard (18:07):
but I think it's ama it's, you know, it's amazing
for, for if you know somepeople, it's very, it's very
hard.
I find it very hard'cause it ishard'cause it is facing that.

Jolie (18:18):
hard.
Yeah.

Howard (18:19):
on the outside of that, when I came back from that
circle play, I, I came back andwas teaching at East 15 Comedia
and I, I came back and I startedjust playing with the students
and I, I just carried on, Ijust, just carried on playing.
It's a warm up.
And I was about an hour in, Iwas like, oh, I wonder how long

(18:40):
I can keep this up for.
And we just kept it up for, I, Ithink about two hours I went,
I've actually probably shouldstop and do something now.
But that sense of just freedom,of just like, well, I can just
do this now because I've, I'vehad this experience and now this
is, this is nothing.
This is, and I, I kind ofrealize a bit for me now when I

(19:01):
teach, I'm, I'm actuallyperforming in many ways.
I mean,

Jolie (19:04):
No,

Howard (19:04):
that's.
It's so, it's three hourperformance, not, but it's
immersive.
So it's about them.
It's not about me, but I'm therejust as this, it, this was it.
To be an had, to be an, what doyou say your course was, being
an idiot or something,

Jolie (19:20):
a stupid, how to be a

Howard (19:21):
had to be stupid.
So I feel like that part of myrole is to be a stupid and to
say, well, look, I'm, I'm, I'malso gonna be a stupid, so why
don't we all be stupids togetherand see what fun it is if we're
all stupids?
And you know, that tends towork.
It's, it's quite, quiteliberating is, is, you know, the
feedback I get from students isit's very liberating when

(19:42):
somebody says, let's, why don'twe all be stupid?
I'm not asking you to be stupid.
Let's all be stupid and I'll bestupid too.
And then when, when you theyrealize that it's actually all
right to be stu to be a stupid,it's very liberating, isn't it?
You go, oh, I can, I can, I cando, I can be an idiot.
You know?
And, and there's a, there's acontext with it and, you know,

(20:05):
you create safe spaces.
Or actually a phrase I got alovely from a conference was
someone who, who was talkingabout creating brave spaces,
which I think is a nice conceptthat they, they are safe, but
they're, they're

Jolie (20:18):
mm

Howard (20:18):
for you to be brave.
And I love that.
I think that's, that's like thenext level, isn't it?
'cause that's why we create safespaces,

Jolie (20:26):
Yeah.

Howard (20:26):
to be brave.

Jolie (20:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's amazing.
that.
Oh yeah.
I'll keep that one in the, inthe bank.

Howard (20:33):
Yeah, it's a good one, isn't I?
I've, I'm using that.
If you enjoy this podcast, thenplease would you be able to
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(20:53):
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Thank you for the podcast.
Or for nine pounds a month,there is the videos of the
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(21:14):
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But what would be wonderful, andI would really appreciate if you
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Rating.
Anywhere where you get yourpodcast, if you can review and
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And just tell people about it,share it on social media, and,

(21:35):
word of mouth I think is key.
I'd really appreciate doingthat.
We have the, which fool are you?
Workshops beginning at the endof May, and this is where you
get to know your archetypehaving worked with my archetype,
Venus, I honestly.
It is so hard to get across howvaluable this work is, but it's
so valuable and it's so rich.

(21:57):
There are all sorts of otherthings out there that are
different archetypes that youcould be working with, I'm
obviously surrounded by a lot ofpeople who are fools and
tricksters and they're workingwith Jonathan K in the fall, and
then there's the full, thetarot, A lot of people have a
mixture of archetypes.
Some people have a really clear,strong one, but some people are
a mixture.
I have three, my strongest oneis Venus, but I also have ing

(22:21):
the fertility, creativity, God,and then I've also got Heti, the
Triple Goddess, there's a bit ofme that seems like an old woman.
There's a bit of me that seemslike a mother.
There's a bit of me that seemslike a child and.
I work with all three of them.
And the Warrior as well.
Is a fourth one that's almostlike a wash over all of them.
It's the juiciest work that Ido.
So if you're interested in this,then do let me know.

(22:43):
We'll be beginning that in theend of May, and it will be for a
Luna Cycle.
And it's all done online, soanyone can join in with that.
thank you.
And on with the show.

Jolie (23:02):
I do feel like I need to dip in and do this work to
challenge myself so that I canbe more of, of service with what
I'm doing.
Because if I don't, it's easy tosit back in the teacher place,
but you need to kind of putyourself on, in back in under
the pin every now and then.
And

Howard (23:21):
Yeah.

Jolie (23:21):
I know I'm due a pin I need to go and

Howard (23:25):
Yeah.
I know it.
In whatever that is.
There's lots of different sortof ways, isn't there?
I mean, Jonathan is definitelyone.

Jolie (23:33):
it doesn't have to be with Jonathan.
I did do it recently withsinging'cause I have a real with
my singing.
And I recently did a singingweekend with someone who's
archetypally working with it.
She's amazing.
Nessie Gomez.
And yeah, cried my eyes out.
I mean, that was a real openingand it did feel like a real
opening for my throat and for mythroat chakra and everything.
And it was incredible.
And that's the thing I loveabout this is there are many

(23:56):
roads to the same city.
And it doesn't have to be, I Iit is when people say this is
the only way.
It's like, that's verysuspicious.
It's not the only way.
And, there are lots of, and it'sthe same with the fooling.
I've met people who with Frankiea very different type of
fooling, but there's pros andcons to that as well.
Things that I, I feel likethey're freer.

(24:16):
they're freer performers.
Whereas I feel like we are muchmore like, hmm, there's a bit
more kind of, I dunno almostcleric ness.
Even though Jonathan's not atall cleric, but there's
something

Howard (24:27):
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.

Jolie (24:30):
the Frankie falling lineage.

Howard (24:32):
I've, I've Had few workshops with some of her.
I haven't yet met her,unfortunately.
But hope, I hope I will withthis.
But I've worked with some of herstudents and it is, it is a
different, but it is a differentway to, to this thing we're
trying to get to, isn't it?
Which is kind of other andfreeing of the imagination, I
think is, is an important thing,isn't it?

(24:54):
I mean, certainly in Jonathan'swork, it's about this inner
world that is full.
And there's a lovely song thatI, I start, there's an xtc song
called world Wrapped in Gray,and it talks about this
beautiful song.
This, this is xt C is sort ofbanned from the eighties.
And it says let's somehow do ittoday.
Don't let the soulless ones giveyou a world wrapped in gray

Jolie (25:17):
Oh

Howard (25:17):
balloons and stream decorate the inside of your
head.
It seems like a real fall songto me.
'cause it's like balloons andstreamers decorate the inside of
your head, this imagination thatwe all have and they are
something, whatever it is,whether it's them or you know,
demi, whatever it is, there issomething that tries to sell you
this gray,

Jolie (25:38):
Oh, big time.

Howard (25:39):
defeat.
You can't do it.
Right, exactly.
And

Jolie (25:44):
Yeah.
I, it is.
And it's not anyoneindividually, it's just a
general mass of monoculture.
Just,

Howard (25:51):
Yeah.

Jolie (25:52):
a beige monoculture of like, meh.

Howard (25:54):
So when we, when we come to it, this thing, this chaos
thing, so I decided on, onsomething else, but one of the
things I was gonna suggest waslike listening to every day,
listen to a classic album, butlisten to it.
'cause you know, like thesedays, I, I do that, I just have
stuff on play on a stream'causeit's easier and I don't always
have access to a CD player.
But do you remember when youused to put a new album on and

(26:17):
give it time and listen to the,

Jolie (26:20):
I'm

Howard (26:20):
the,

Jolie (26:20):
all.

Howard (26:22):
like Pink, I listen to Pink Floyd and you just listen
to the artistry that there wasartists put into it and the way
that they would, they would likeput drums in a bathroom so they
get specific sound.
And now it's just, well, wepress a button.
I, we did.
That's, that feels to me likethat's, you know, the digital
world, it has these wonderfulthings like we're able to talk

(26:43):
and do this, but it's alsostripping us of so much of, of
connection and you know, andwith AI and stuff, it's, it's,
it's, there are those risks andI, I do wonder whether there, I,
I think the other thing is thatthere will be possibly, and I
hope this reaction to that,where people will come back and

(27:05):
want real things.
You want theater'cause you wantto be together rather than.
Television that you want.

Jolie (27:12):
gonna end up a split with actually very like actually
split in terms of evolution.
So there'll be people who'll bechipped and we'll be tech

Howard (27:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Jolie (27:21):
and will basically become kind of, AI e

Howard (27:24):
Robots.

Jolie (27:25):
and then there'll be people who are nature based and
are, are going the other way.
Interesting.
Yeah.

Howard (27:33):
And whether that, whether that going that way
opens up some of, some of moreof our spiritual

Jolie (27:40):
Yeah.

Howard (27:40):
things.

Jolie (27:41):
But

Howard (27:41):
Like, like,

Jolie (27:42):
like completely screwed over by the, the people and the

Howard (27:46):
well,

Jolie (27:46):
stuff, because obviously

Howard (27:47):
maybe

Jolie (27:47):
better weapons than us

Howard (27:49):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
That's the, yeah,

Jolie (27:53):
If they let us be

Howard (27:54):
yeah, exactly.
We'll entertain them.
That's the thing.
Don't me.
I'll, I'll make it laugh.

Jolie (27:58):
we'll be there full.
That is what we'll be, be like,let us live.

Howard (28:03):
Yeah.

Jolie (28:05):
Cool.
So we'll do the last card.

Howard (28:07):
Okay.
So let's go the opposite then.
So that one right at the, theother side.
The front one?
Yeah.

Jolie (28:14):
So this

Howard (28:15):
What is that?

Jolie (28:15):
the Prince of Swords.
So this

Howard (28:18):
Ooh.

Jolie (28:18):
might.
This is kind of fighting themind and the intellect,

Howard (28:21):
Ooh.

Jolie (28:23):
and it is the outer world.
It's fighting all of the, thechaos.
Well,

Howard (28:28):
Wow.

Jolie (28:29):
the noise really

Howard (28:31):
So it's, it's, it's the idea of fighting the noise, like
actually trying to.

Jolie (28:36):
he's at battle, doesn't he?
So

Howard (28:38):
Yeah, it does.

Jolie (28:39):
swords is the intellect.
It's

Howard (28:41):
Yeah.

Jolie (28:42):
So it is about the mind and that and feels like him
fighting the the, the greatdistractor is what Jonathan K
called it, didn't he?
The great distractor.

Howard (28:51):
The mind.
Yeah.
It's a monkey mind, isn't it?
I, I am.

Jolie (28:54):
not just the monkey mind, but also what you were saying
about people trying to stealattention, you know, with

Howard (28:58):
Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Like what focus is.
Yeah.

Jolie (29:01):
distractor.

Howard (29:02):
we place our attention.
And I'm really bad at this atthe moment.
I'm, I'm going through a real,trying to, having to consciously
say, actually it's,'cause it isa battle for consciousness, I
think.
And attention is that.

Jolie (29:15):
Exactly.

Howard (29:16):
And so the, I need, I would like to start placing my
attention more carefully, morethought through.
I, I, I'm aware, I'm aware,like, so coming back to that
with the fall, that it's really,it's impossible to define fall
really.
'cause the whole point of thefall is if you define it and you

(29:37):
do that thing of like pin it,then it, it appears behind you
and it goes, ah, it's, but I'mnot that anymore because it's
literally not that.
And I'm very aware, I think myPhD is gonna start probably with
a quote from the da, Hey Ching,which says, you know, the dao,
the Dao that you call the Daoisn't the Dao.
'cause if you, once you defineit, it can no longer be in.

(29:58):
And I'm very aware that in asense I'm a bit of a fools
errand in any way trying todefine fool in a PhD.
And for, you know, particularlyJonathan, you say he's very,
he's actually very intellectual.
He has, it's, I, I had, I've hadsome amazing discussions with
him, but every now and then he,he won't want to engage with
that at all.
And he will just mercilesslytake the piss of, of that think,

(30:21):
that king that thinking.
And I kind of understand that Ihave this king and my view is,
I, I actually need to thinkabout it'cause I need to toss
the king a bone.

Jolie (30:30):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (30:31):
it's just there like all the time with me.
And I can find my fall bytransporting into mask or, or,
you know, obviously of often forme it's a masking or a puppetry.
It's something other that allowsme to sink below my king,

Jolie (30:46):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (30:47):
is always there and it, and I've accepted that I have a
king and a fool and they aredifferent and I kind of have to
throw the king a bone.
So that kind of fighting theintellect.
I, I think there is an elementwhere I've done that.
Like early on when I firstdiscovered masks, that was me

(31:09):
realizing that there is a way ofme dropping outta my intellect
and into body and into being andpresence.
But I also, that, that sort ofthought comes back and you can
get, you can get very trapped inthe mind, can't you?
I mean, I've had that in my lifewith particularly depression
kind of brings you that and thenyou start going down a kind of

(31:30):
thought process.
And I.
Battling, you know, battling oneverything.
And there's a point at whichactually what you need to do is
just put the sword down and go,I'm not gonna fight it anymore.

Jolie (31:44):
slapstick.

Howard (31:45):
Pick uptick.
Yeah, exactly.
Put the sword down, pick uptickyourself around with that and
put stupid something on.
And then, and then, and thenlife's better, isn't it?
I mean, it is kind of betterwith that.
And I think there is an elementin the world at the moment where
this is exactly where we're at,is, is I, I, I admire and love

(32:07):
the way that you and otherpeople like you, like Le you
know, Lexi, Lexi,

Jolie (32:11):
Mm-hmm.

Howard (32:11):
the people who really take on board there.
I I, one of my abiding memoriesof you on the, I think it's the
first pilgrimage, was walkingalong the canals around it must
have been around Stratford way.
And you had your pink, wonderfulpink headdress on, and you would
just stop and chat to peoplebecause,'cause of course they

(32:32):
would,'cause you are, you arethere disrupting their normal
thing.
And I would often be just behindyou.
So you would speak with them,and that meant that then I'd see
you do that, and then I couldcome and whoever I was with
would come and chat to themabout what we are doing.
It was like you were giving usthis, giving us and them this
permission to have this space,and then you'll go off and find

(32:52):
someone else and people willcome up to you.
And it was a wonderful thingbecause it wasn't, I think you
said at one point, you know,it's like the archetype of the
pilgrim.
And that's what we were being,and that's what you're talking
about, about that the, thatthere is something where we, and
we were, we were genuinelyliving it.
We weren't

Jolie (33:11):
Mm.

Howard (33:11):
pretending to do it.

Jolie (33:13):
Yeah.

Howard (33:14):
might have set off all of our egos.

Jolie (33:16):
off such an energy.
People can

Howard (33:18):
Yeah.

Jolie (33:18):
I, I, it happened to me, so when I was at the Edinburgh
Fringe, when I was about.
Probably about 7, 8, 9.
I saw a troop of performingclown children who thinking
back,'cause at the time,obviously I wouldn't have known
or had the, the life knowledgeto be able to guess this, but I

(33:39):
would guess that they were fromsome sort of community like com
commune kind of where they didclown, you know, where they
clowned.
So they'd grown up with it, butthe way they were with each
other was so different to anychildren interaction I'd ever
seen before.
And they were clowning and theyhad red noses and they were
juggling and they could do allof these tricks and stuff, but

(34:00):
they were also like completelyhippie alternative, you know,
they were just another world.
And they so disrupted my realityand, and you know, stuck with me
to this day where I was like,wherever that is, I want in on
that.
I want a piece of that'causethat looks fun.
And yeah, I just feel like whenwe are walking through these
villages in these towns thatthey might never even have

(34:23):
spoken to us, but they just sawus walk through and were, what
the hell was that?
And you don't know whether thatmeant that they left a toxic
relationship or they quit thatjob or it was that just, just,
you have no idea the effect thatyou are having.
And we do, that walk creates somany ripples.
We are rippling literally everysecond that we're walking.

Howard (34:46):
Mm.

Jolie (34:46):
don't know who's watched you or seen you at any point,
you know, and the effect thatyou've had on them.
And I love that.

Howard (34:54):
Yeah.
And I, and that's not also, youknow, without all the ceremonies
as well.
I mean, one, one of the thing Iloved about that, I, I had, I
found it hard, I mean, justfacing stuff with myself, I
found the performances quitehard in that first one.
But what I loved was the idea ofus being in ceremony.
I mean, the PIL itself was aceremony, so that was the energy

(35:16):
we were bringing, and then wewere doing ceremonies and that,
that for me felt like that was,yeah, what, you know, who we
don't know what ripples we weresending out.
We don't want ripples.
We were sending out, doing theceremonies in spaces and within
ourselves.
And then it's where we've allgone on to, to, you know, where
we've, we've gone on afterwardsand what the effect that that's

(35:39):
us as people.
Yeah.
And this, the pilgrimage that wedid, the momming one, we've set
up the mum, the.
Chag for mums.
So that's starting part of thefolk.
And it's quite zeitgeist.
See this folk, there's so muchnew folk art happening now.

Jolie (35:56):
Yeah.

Howard (35:57):
Really?
It's like,

Jolie (35:58):
Yeah.
It

Howard (35:59):
it's a really big thing.
Yeah.
Which is great.
I think it's

Jolie (36:03):
Yeah.

Howard (36:03):
good.
So we have in the Chag mums, wenow have, so I dance the Os on
Mayday, which is a,

Jolie (36:09):
Brilliant.

Howard (36:09):
Horse's head.
But we now in the cha of mums,we've got someone who has dances
a different os and she'sbrilliant.
It's, it's a beautiful os, it'sa white os.
Whereas mine's a painted blackand very kind of black figure.
And hers is this beautifulcarved wooden os.
Beautiful.
Really lovely.
And it, it that, so when we didour, our Robinhood and we had

(36:34):
the o in the church and we wereup and it it, there's something
about masks.
So I think there's something,

Jolie (36:39):
So.

Howard (36:39):
me, one of the things about masks is, is that
disruptor.
I think they are, when someoneis in a mask, you see as an
audience, something other, it,it's what I talk to my students
about when they get it.
It's like, if you give into themask, we won't see you.
Which gives you so muchpermission to, to.
To be free because we no longersee you.

(37:02):
We see that character.
Or normally it's some sort ofcreature if it's a zani.
And what we are seeing is that,and we, we, we completely don't
see you anymore.
And that's a wonderful freedomas an audience seeing those,
these sort of creatures, it's,it's disrupting, you know, it is
just naturally disrupting.
You see a really good, someonewho's really in clown and is a

(37:23):
clown and is that mask clown andit's disrupting because they're
not,

Jolie (37:27):
Yeah.

Howard (37:27):
they're not doing the normal things,

Jolie (37:29):
Which is why people find them scary.
'cause they, you

Howard (37:32):
which is why

Jolie (37:33):
They're just chaos.
Yeah.
It's just

Howard (37:35):
Yeah.
I actually

Jolie (37:38):
Yeah.

Howard (37:38):
talk, talk clown last time to some students and there
was someone there who hadcholera phobia.
Like, seriously, I've never seenthis.
And the trouble is what I'd doneis I, I approaching it as mask.
So I hadn't told'em I was gonnado clowning.
And I just started clown nosingthem up during an exercise and
suddenly this poor girl justlike turn literally turned out.

(38:01):
And then she came and said like,I can't, I, and it was terror.
I said, yeah, well you need togo next door and be in that
'cause I'm not gonna try andkeep you in this room because
there's absolute terror.
And it, it's the first time I'vecome across it like it's a real
thing and it's

Jolie (38:17):
Yeah.

Howard (38:18):
most terrified thing I've ever seen in someone.

Jolie (38:21):
And that I feel sad about.
'cause I feel like that showshow disjointed we've become from
it.
But I know that

Howard (38:27):
Yeah.

Jolie (38:27):
thing.
I know it's because it'sassociated with horror films and
stuff like that,

Howard (38:30):
Yeah.

Jolie (38:31):
but that's what we've done to it.
Like the fear or themisunderstanding or the, of
facing your own fool and yourown shadow has turned it into a
darkness.
It's turned it into this

Howard (38:43):
yeah.

Jolie (38:45):
when

Howard (38:45):
And in a sense, it's, it's there

Jolie (38:47):
It.

Howard (38:47):
because that is, you know, that is what the fall is
doing, is showing

Jolie (38:51):
Yeah.

Howard (38:52):
is what the fall is showing you.
But it,

Jolie (38:54):
Yeah,

Howard (38:55):
so here's the question which I, I ask, is there,
what's, what is, what would yourdefinition be between the
difference between a fall and aclown?

Jolie (39:04):
I mean

Howard (39:05):
I mean, they're sacred clowns, that's a different
thing, but that sort of,

Jolie (39:08):
The Sacred Clowns.

Howard (39:09):
I think the sacred clown's quite close to fall
really.

Jolie (39:12):
yeah, I'd say the Sacred Clown is quite close to Fool.
I feel like The Fool is morecommunicative.
Like, I feel like you are withClown.
I would be less communicative,I'd be more physical.
So I

Howard (39:31):
Right.

Jolie (39:31):
the Fool has the flexibility of a bit more of
the, the thinking being there,although it's not the thinking,
but the, the the, yeah.
That you are able to tell big,bigger stories.
I think, I don't, I think Clownis more of a, in a way, like a
cartoon version of it.

(39:52):
So it's the, it is the comicbook version, a bit like the
Beginner's Guide to

Howard (39:56):
Right.
So,

Jolie (39:57):
So I feel like Fool is the Shakespeare and the clown is
like the beginner's guide.
It's, they are the same thing,but clown is much more, Which in
a way has a more stripped,stripped back innocence to it.
It's, it's almost

Howard (40:13):
it's more naive, isn't it?
I think, I think that one of thethings that all

Jolie (40:16):
Yeah.

Howard (40:17):
actually knows when you see a fall really working, this
is what I get with Jonathan, islike, they really, they, they
kind of like really under,whether they do or not, I don't
know, but you get the sensethat,

Jolie (40:28):
but not from a thinking

Howard (40:29):
to them

Jolie (40:29):
isn't

Howard (40:30):
place

Jolie (40:30):
un

Howard (40:31):
in the thinking place?
No.
It's in a kind of like justknowing, like a a or almost like

Jolie (40:37):
now.

Howard (40:37):
Stic kind of just, they just know and they, they kind of
have, where's the, the clown ismore naive.
I think the clown

Jolie (40:46):
yeah.

Howard (40:46):
the, for me in Shakespeare, the clown is the
one that's come from the countryand gone to town and go, oh, and
then he is taken advantage ofbecause of that.
Whereas the fool is the onethat's like probably the one
taking advantage of the clownactually.
That trickster kind of figuresort of is on

Jolie (41:01):
You have, you heard, you know how Jonathan does the play
on words?
Have you

Howard (41:04):
Yeah.

Jolie (41:05):
the No, as in KNOW.
So to know something is.
He says that K is I and C tomake the K, or it's an I and a C

Howard (41:16):
Yeah.

Jolie (41:16):
And in the middle of see no W is the circle, which is the
full.
And so it's, it's, I see.
No w So it's when that sphincteris uns split and it's become the
circle.
So he's not knowing in athinking way, he's knowing

Howard (41:31):
No, no.

Jolie (41:31):
way.

Howard (41:33):
In an infinite way.
Exactly.
It's like that kind of, that,which sort of goes back to that
sense that the shaman is the onethat you come to to ask how do
you survive death?

Jolie (41:44):
Yeah.

Howard (41:44):
do you survive the fear of death

Jolie (41:47):
Yeah.

Howard (41:48):
yeah.

Jolie (41:51):
And that's the surrender for me, like that's what the,
the hangman means to me is it'sthat moment when you just let go
and then you slip through theegg timer and you, you just let
go.
There's nothing to fear ofdeath, just surrendering to it
and capitulating into the nextthing, whatever that thing

Howard (42:09):
Yeah.
So we would, death is sort oflike, as I, I quite like the
phrase that death is like yourconstant companion.
It's always there

Jolie (42:18):
totally.

Howard (42:19):
you,

Jolie (42:19):
yeah,

Howard (42:19):
and we're all going towards it.
You know,

Jolie (42:22):
yeah.

Howard (42:23):
at some point we're all gonna face it.

Jolie (42:25):
like you know, mercury, you know, have you seen how, you
know how mercury moves, where itjust goes when it slips through?
I always feel

Howard (42:30):
Oh yeah.
Yeah.

Jolie (42:31):
feels like when you slip into sleep and you slip back
outta sleep and the dream slipsthrough, but there's that sort
of slipping feeling between thetwo.
we are so scared of it that weare gripping the whole time, and
it's just putting all theseobstacles in the way of it.
But if you can just relax, thenyou slip through these places.

(43:00):
So what's

Howard (43:00):
And that's

Jolie (43:02):
then?

Howard (43:03):
my right.
So what, yeah, I, I, this issomething that I, I think I
probably have originally did itas a drama exercise or
something.
So the idea is to walkintentionally at some point
every day at half the normalspeed.
So if you're in a sit and halfyour normal speed, so if you're

(43:25):
in a city and you intentionallyslow down, I found, I did this
one a couple of ti times inLondon, in, in Oxford Street,
and it blew my mind and it, andit, it took me outta the matrix.
'cause you, you suddenly see allthe chaos going on around you

(43:45):
and that, and you are kind of,it's, it's like you're just,
just slowing down half yournormal speed.
And it's, it's, that, I think issomething that helps you compare
with the matrix.
Now, I also sometimes do it inthe countryside.
So if you're in the country, youcan also do it with kind of
intentional walking where yousay, so what I would do in
London would say, I'm gonna walkbetween here and that lamppost

(44:06):
at half my normal speed and slowdown.
And then in the country I, anddo it with, like, I'm gonna walk
between here and that bush.
And in the country particularly,I really am aware of really
feeling it.
It comes a bit from like Tai chipractice of like intentional
walking, intentionally sinkinginto your breath and placing
your foot and really feeling it.

(44:27):
It, it, it, you know, the heelgo down, the Togo down, and then
the next one placedintentionally.
And I think in the country, whatthat does is bring me into
presence.
So I often go out into, we'vegot woods behind with, with our
new dog, Lottie.
And who is, who is a fool.
She's I haven't talked abouther.
She, she literally invents,she's a spaniel and she can

(44:48):
invent games.
She, she can play infinitely.
She's teaching me so much aboutplay.
I'll go out with her in thewoods and I'll realize after a
while I'm, I'm like in my head,which is partly why I go out
there.
And then I go, just, just walkthis next section in that way.
And suddenly I'm with her in, inthe woods and, and I've sunk

(45:10):
below my.
All that chaos that the world'sgiving.
So I think in the country it'squite good for, in the city
doing it, I think it can bereally quite revolutionary
because the city has its ownspeed.
It has its own sort of energyand it's, and the energy in

(45:31):
cities that tend to be go here,do this, buy this, get this, da
da da da da da.
And just dropping out of thatand seeing how everything is,
that is kind of, yeah, I, IFIfound it when I, I did it as an
intention a few times.
It changed my, again, it sort ofchanged my understanding of, of
this thing of how our attentionis caught.

(45:53):
How the mine's attention'scaught, and that you don't have
to be caught by it.

Jolie (45:58):
Yeah.

Howard (46:00):
That's my, yeah, that's my chaos crusade.
I think that's quite

Jolie (46:02):
brilliant.

Howard (46:03):
chaos.
Think to, to,

Jolie (46:06):
I

Howard (46:06):
you know, with,

Jolie (46:07):
yeah, it, you can, and people will just because it just
slowing down.
Movement is archetypal.
That's one of the, the ways thatI will

Howard (46:16):
yeah.

Jolie (46:16):
archetype is to move slowly and suddenly everyone
will just stop and watch you,what you doing, and they'll see
you.
You suddenly become visible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.

Howard (46:29):
What are you doing that for?
I dunno.
Why shouldn't, I mean, that'sthe weird thing is why shouldn't
you, of course you don't'causesocial norms because people are
looking at you.
But the great thing about, youknow, like the fall is like,
well,'cause I, I felt likedoing, why shouldn't we, why
shouldn't we all feel like doingthat?
From that, every now and then,it'd be wonderful

Jolie (46:46):
yeah,

Howard (46:47):
all just went, oh, I'm just gonna walk slowly for
between now and between here andthe the corner.
I'm suddenly gonna change myspeed.
Imagine if everybody did that,what cities would be like, it
would be be amazing.
It would just,

Jolie (47:00):
It is.
And it's, so, it's tiny thingslike that that makes you realize
how much reality is made upbecause that we've just, we've
agreed socially and that is partof what the fool is, is breaking
and playing with those agreedrules.
So for example, when, you know,there's always the story that
Jonathan an audience to arestaurant and they all sat one

(47:22):
side of a table and he sat theother and they had a meal
together instead of being in thetheater and just doing

Howard (47:27):
Yeah,

Jolie (47:27):
Like, it just completely disrupted reality.
And yeah, just by changing yourspeed is this tiny little thing
that demonstrates that it's allmade up, that we've all just

Howard (47:39):
yeah,

Jolie (47:39):
that this

Howard (47:40):
yeah.

Jolie (47:40):
we are walking.

Howard (47:41):
Exactly.

Jolie (47:42):
also be doing this.
You know, it is just what ourcollective agreement is.
And obviously every city has itsown speed.
You know, different countrieshave their own speed.

Howard (47:52):
Yeah.

Jolie (47:53):
own speed.
None of it's fixed, but yeah.
Brilliant.
Thank you.
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Is there anything else youwanted to ask me if, have we
covered things that you wantedto know

Howard (48:05):
I think we might, I think that, I think that's so it
was mainly about kind of how,how it's affecting your
practice.
But I can see with you this,it's partly, it, it seemed to
be, it was almost destined.
It's, this is a continuation

Jolie (48:18):
Yeah.
It, it does

Howard (48:19):
and,

Jolie (48:20):
like it was a destined thing.
And also part of it is and thisis one of the things that came
up in the circle place for me togive up.
Is it, is it, so it's the, yeah,it, it's my tussle.
So you are talking about havingto get below the chaos.
My tussle is that, I am astoryteller, but more of a, like

(48:41):
life storyteller.
So less so made up stories, moreso fictional, so it's not true,
but it's also true, you know?

Howard (48:51):
Yeah.

Jolie (48:52):
That's how I work.
But then, Jonathan's also alwaysworking with me to break that,
because that's my habit.
So it's also how can I breakaway from that?
But at the same time, it's like,that's also what my best tool is
in my toolkit.
So it is like, I wanna work withthat and develop it, but I want
to loosen it and break it and,and improve it and enrich it.

(49:13):
But yeah, so of that thing of itbeing predestined is true, but
also.
Part of my work and working withJonathan is to break the habit
of it always being this storythat neatly

Howard (49:24):
Yeah,

Jolie (49:24):
and can be a bit outer worldly.
'cause then you said Yeah, butof how did it make you feel?
Like how I, I shy away fromemotion and it's more of the
like, intellectual story of it.
I need to stop and go and howdid that actually affect

Howard (49:40):
that's, that's,

Jolie (49:41):
Or,

Howard (49:41):
is kind of what, what my PhD is.
I've, I've sort of recognizedthat there's a kind of second
wave of practitioners likeyourself.
I count myself in that peoplewho've trained Jonathan or
Frankie, and they're going onand they're finding their own
influences with it.
So some of them are very few,but some of them actually are

(50:02):
doing the, the full likefooling.
But I think a lot of peoplehave, are taking that thing that
falling does, which is face youwith yourself and, and show you
and break you patterns, breakyou.
And that gives something into,into the, the, the work that you

(50:25):
do, the work theater that you door the, or, or, I mean, I think
with most people it also affectstheir life.
I mean, think it, it affectsthat.
So, so obviously a lot of thestuff you do is because you, you
have, you are kind of your innerand outer world of, of a very,

Jolie (50:40):
un

Howard (50:41):
connected and twisted.
So,

Jolie (50:43):
Yeah.

Howard (50:44):
idea of, of even this podcast and the nonsense and the
chaos, you know, it's this, it,it's doing something within that
context that's inspired by foolthat's being brought about by
the ideas behind Fool.
And I think you know, that's,that's one of the things that
interests me in, in my work islooking and saying, well, so
what did fool do to me?
It, it did similar things to mewhere it basically, it stopped

(51:07):
me being quite so much like myown ass, I think.

Jolie (51:09):
yeah.
I mean, well that's, it's, it'sfunny'cause this sort of brings
us full circle to what I wastalking about at the beginning
when I was saying about thevegetarian thing and enjoying
having, so what, what I've gotmost from it is working with my
archetype.
there was a moment of liberationfor me when I went, do you know
what?

(51:29):
This pin going through me is toopainful for me to just keep
doing.
I did it for seven years and youknow, it was amazing.
But there was a moment where Ihad to go, I'm not a fool in the
way that you need me to be, towork with my archetype is not
the fool.
There are people here who it is,and they are gonna be able to

(51:49):
work with you on the stage inthe way that you want them to.
I'm not a fool.
I am a Aphrodite Strumm pitslash warrior.
So I, it, I kind of needed tocome away from Jonathan to give
myself permission, and I feellike permission is a key word
for me.
And, and I feel like that's oneof the things that came through
the pilgrimage is that we allgiving ourselves permission to

(52:13):
have our relationship with theinner world, however that may
be.
So Jonathan has his one

Howard (52:19):
Yeah.

Jolie (52:20):
and it's wonderful to be around and it's a, it is this
beautiful, painful pin goingthrough that teaches you so
much.
But I have my own.
In a world relationship, andit's giving myself permission to
be the trumpet, to, to fall inlove with a 20-year-old.
When I move to SARC and, andmarry him, because I'm Willow
from the wickerman.
I, that's what I do, like givingmyself permission to be the

(52:41):
warrior, to be, you know, to bein politics and to be fighting
whatever it's, I'm fighting anddoing whatever it's I'm doing
because I'm giving myself thatpermission.
And it's something I saw when wewere doing the pilgrimage, what
our relationships were to thelines, because everyone had a
different relationship to it.
So some people felt exactly theshape and size of the lines, and
some people just felt a sense ofserendipity, which is what I

(53:03):
feel.
I feel like I just noticedserendipity and I notice magic.
I also think possibly if Iwalked anywhere.
With that kind of intention thatthat also might happen.
I don't know.
I, I, I believe in everythingand nothing.
So I think I like the story ofthe lines and that's what we are
doing.
But also, I love that the KLFcreated the soup line where

(53:24):
they've just drawn a line acrossthe country, and if you live on
it, they'll come and make yousoup, which is brilliant.
So I think that you can createthese magical lines yourself.
You can create your ownintention line and that that
would also have a significance.
But I feel like that's ourrelationship to the land and
that it's giving yourselfpermission to relate to it in
the way that you relate to it,that it's connected through your

(53:45):
inner world.
And so I kind of needed to breakaway from Jonathan to have the
space to be able to be my ownarchetype and to sit within my
own archetype that wasn't quiteexactly what he needed for the,
the stage stuff that he wantedto do

Howard (53:58):
But do you think it was a work with him that that
introduced you more deeply tothat concept of archetype?

Jolie (54:04):
Yeah, 100%.
I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, Icouldn't have possibly felt my
archetype if it hadn't been forthe circle plays.
So it was only after doing threecircle plays and observing, like
you said, observing everyoneelse's, I went, wow, that is so
you, and that is so you, this isso me.

(54:24):
And so then I could feel what myflavor was.
And they're universal.
So that's why I, when I talkabout the egg timer, it's like
the closer you are to thesphincter, the more it is like
you

Howard (54:35):
Yeah.

Jolie (54:36):
That's the archetype.
And outwardly that's you andyour life and how it manifests.
But the further out you go, itbecomes the universe.
And the further in you go, itbecomes collective consciousness
and the dreaming.
And at some point they all joinup.
So we are all, everything andwe're infinite.
But as we get closer to thissphincter, we become more like
our flavor.
And then the, and and so that'salso why I see the outer world

(54:58):
as a sign language for the innerworld.
Because if you wanna know, likewithout doing a circle, play
what your inner world's like,look at what your outer world's
like.
Like what do you attract?
Yeah.
Like what's, how is your house amess?
Is your house a cer?
You know, whatever it is.
Like whatever you create in yourlife is partly what your inner
world looks like.

(55:19):
But it's always coming back tothe word permission is giving
yourself permission to own allof that and to own your
archetype and to own what youcreate.
Like this is

Howard (55:29):
without judgment.

Jolie (55:30):
are doing without judgment.
Because you know, like I alwaysgive, yeah.
I give an example of this guythat I know who has made a
living as a Hollywood, a actorof being like a pedophile and
the Badie.
He's like, he's in the CrazeBrothers film.
He's the Badie in the CrazeBrothers film, but he got famous
from playing a pedophile in areally horrific, like, real like

(55:50):
gritty film.
And, and he, he, that's hisarchetype.
And no, no one wants that to betheir archetype, do they like,
but if you embrace it instead offighting against it, it doesn't
mean that he is those things.
It's just that's the atmospherethat he has and therefore he can
play it.
played it and it's now aHollywood star.

(56:10):
He's made a fortune out ofplaying it, you know, and he's
hilarious and he's at ease withwho he is as a person because he
hasn't fought against it.
He's just gone.
Yep.
I am that and brilliant.
So that's what often I find thatpeople don't like their
archetype because there'salmost, it's almost as if we is
that comparison is the thief ofjoy.

(56:31):
We almost look at everybody elseand go, oh, they're amazing.
Oh, I love what they

Howard (56:35):
Yeah, I wish I was.

Jolie (56:36):
You never wanna be the thing that you are.

Howard (56:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jolie (56:40):
of what it is, even if it's Aphrodite like mine is, I
still was like, oh, but I wantedto be more, I dunno, feline and
mysterious, or I want it to bemore like Jane Scott, or I want
it to be more like Joanne, or Iwant like, no, you are a gritty
down

Howard (56:54):
you're who you're, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's what I had to, soa lot of people do with
Jonathan, I wanna be able to dothat.
And it's like, you're not gonnabe able to do that.
You have to find what it does toyou and what, and what your
relationship is to it, I think.
And yeah,

Jolie (57:14):
We just have to be our wonderful little facets of the
inner divine jewel.

Howard (57:17):
just all our crazy madness and eccentricities and
everything in there.
No.
Yeah.

Jolie (57:27):
Brilliant.
Well thank you.
That was the awesome HowardGaton.
What an absolute pleasure it wasto chat to him.

(57:48):
I could have talked to himforever.
I nearly did, and so I'm gladthat I was able to share this
chat with you.
And yeah, hopefully next weekI'll be back in the recording
studio.
My house is literally covered indetritus from Beltane.
I have.
I've got so much washing to do,I've got so much stuff to sort
out.
We've got people camping in thegarden still, and I just have no

(58:09):
idea when they're gonna walk inor out.
So I had to sit in my room todayand record just through the
computer.
I apologize for the soundquality of the intro and uh, the
outro, but I promise next weekwe'll be back to our usual
standards and I've got anotherspecial guest lined up that I'm
looking forward to you, hearingall about who's from the Frankie
lineage of fooling.
So that's an exciting.

(58:30):
Opportunity to hear falling froma different perspective.
That's with Naomi Smith, who isa really good friend from
Glastonbury Festival, who I'vebeen working with for a long
time.
So that will be in a couple ofweeks.
I'll be back next week with anupdate on what's going on in my
world and can't wait to sharewith you all the stuff that's
been going on.
It has been crazy.
This rollercoaster of life istaking me on some twists and

(58:53):
turns that I never expected, andit's all good, but.
ultimate challenge, like it'sbeen unbelievably challenging.
But I have made it through and Ifeel like I've come out bigger
and stronger and surrounded bymore love and support than I've
ever had before.
I feel more part of thecommunity than I've ever done
before, and Beam was banging.

(59:14):
So thank you, thank you, thankyou for anyone who came and
supported me, and for all thepeople that support me in life
generally.
I love you.
I appreciate you and I can'twait to keep sharing this mad
adventure with you, so I shallsee the anon.