#41 The Feminine Lineage; Naomi Smyth and an alternative route to Fooling

I first met Naomi through working at Glastonbury Festival putting together the performative elements and installations for Shangri-la, the late night part of the festival, or the naughty corner, as we like to call it. We had worked together for a couple of days before we clocked that we were both fools and it all suddenly made so much sense. I’ve been interested to learn more about Naomi’s story and arts practices for some time now, so interviewing her for the podcast was a great opportunity for finding out more about her world. 

Naomi is a PhD researcher at Bath Spa University, focusing on the creative and technological responses of theatre artists to COVID restrictions. She’s an immersive theatre writer, director and performer with experience as an independent filmmaker and freelance videographer. Based in and around Bristol, she’s spent years working with Bristol born arts collectives like Shangri-la, Boomtown and the Invisible Circus. 

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

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Episode Transcript

(00:30):
the.

(00:54):
Welcome to The Nonsense in theChaos.
I'm your host, Jaylee Rose.
Today I am interviewing my dearfriend Naomi, who I have known
for seven or eight years.
We worked out, and I know herthrough creating.
Installations and interactiveexperiences for the visitors who

(01:15):
come to the area of Shangrila atGlastonbury Festival.
So Shangrila has been around fora long time now.
I, I'm not quite sure when itstarted.
It took over from Las Vegas, soLas Vegas, and then it's more
recent.
Manifestation, which is shanglaare known as the naughty corner
at Glastonbury, and we are thelate night bits.

(01:37):
So once the main stages haveclosed down, then people come
over to the naughty corner andwe're up till later and.
When people come to the area,there's a lot of messaging.
There's a lot of politicalmessaging.
There's, there's a lot of heartand soul in what's happening.
So not only is it hedonistic andfun and the late night bit, but

(01:59):
there's some really importantkey, uh, messages that we are
getting across every year, andthere are to do with inclusivity
and creating a better future.
And.
Tearing down and, uh, sending upand making fun of capitalism and
neoliberalism and marketing andthings like that.

(02:23):
So.
It's brilliant.
I love it.
It's, it's one of the most,politically engaged art projects
that I work on.
I'd say.
I mean, everything I do has gota political edge to it, and all
art is political, but I, this isprobably the most political out
of the work that I do, the mostovertly, I guess, and it's going

(02:48):
in a new direction this year,which I'm extremely excited
about.
It's been.
Uh, sending up and taking theMickey out of high streets for
the last few years, and we hadpeople being estate agents and
trying to sell portal leases formillions of pounds and.
Old tents and stuff like that.
And we had people doingchugging, which is charity

(03:09):
mugging, where people come up toyour clipboards and lanyards in
the street and try and get youto sign up for a charity.
So we were doing things likethat, signing up to give money
to Elon Musk so that he couldcarry on being awesome while
you, you know, weren't reallydoing anything that useful with
your time and energy and money,so you might as well give it to
him.
Things like that.
And.
Naomi is the calm in the stormof all of this where she

(03:33):
orchestrates the theater elementof the Shangri La family, and I
support her and work with her.
And we'd been together for acouple of days.
The first year we worked witheach other before we clocked
her, that we were both fools,but from a completely different
lineage.
And so, I'm really interested tohear where, where she's gonna go
with this because it's acompletely different take on it

(03:56):
all to the ones that we'vealready explored with Howard and
Ja, uh, Joe Trimarco.
So yeah, I'm looking forward tothis conversation and seeing
which direction we're gonna goin.
So, without further ado, here isthe awesome Naomi Smith.

Jolie (04:16):
Welcome to Naomi Smythe, which I've, just found out
that's how we pronounce yourname.
And I've known you for yearsnow.
It's been about six, sevenyears.
It's been quite a while.
I wanna know where you are and Iwanna know what's going on in
your life at the moment, becausethe last time I spoke to you,
you were possibly only justmoving into a house from living
more on site in a more onsitesituation.

(04:37):
So what's going on?
Where are you living?
and what you up to?

Naomi Smyth (04:39):
Well, I think

Jolie (04:41):
um,

Naomi Smyth (04:42):
each other for seven or eight years but I am,
currently in a lodge.
Which is like a very largestatic, basically like double
static.
You might have seen them onmotorways.
They're like now sliced in halfon the back of a truck.
so we've lived, in this fieldfor about 10 years now.

(05:04):
and for the past three or fouryears we've been moving in and
out of it.
the structures, we had made thewinters quite rough, like a,
with our daughter fine for usbefore she was born.
But, now we've got a, much morelivable structure and, it just
feels like a house

Jolie (05:21):
Excellent.
and do you live near Kay?

Naomi Smyth (05:24):
No, around the same time, a lot of the people that I
worked with at the InvisibleCircus and in that whole
creative community moved to theoutskirts of Bristol.
It sort of was a few years aftersquatting became illegal and
rents in Bristol went upmassively.
And we all just got, a bit tiredof crumbing into rented rooms.

(05:47):
it's partly an age thing aswell.
and the whole Temple Cloud creware on the southwest side of
Bristol, in the Glastonburydirection.
And we're on the northeast sideof Bristol, so we're sort of all
in a ring around Bristol.
there's a few different, sitesand communities dotted around
Bristol now.

Jolie (06:05):
Tell me about the Invisible theater then, because
I, I, so I want to know aboutyour.
Journey with fooling and I guessmaybe the invisible theater is
part of that, but, I'mparticularly interested in the
fact you come from a differentlineage of fooling to me.
'cause we've interviewed quite afew fools on the podcast and it
was such a shock when we'd beenworking together for, I think it

(06:27):
was like a, at least a day.
I think it was like the secondor third day of being at
Glastonbury, where we were like,oh, you're a fool as well.
That's why we completely getwhat each other's doing.
And it was a real joy and such asurprise to meet someone from a
different lineage.
So talking about your historyand your Yeah.
Your journey for the fool.

Naomi Smyth (06:45):
I studied theater and

Jolie (06:48):
Yes.

Naomi Smyth (06:48):
theater, but I wanted to be in weird old
derelict buildings with a loadof weird artists from different
disciplines.
'cause those, that was the stuffthat really excited me when I
was studying it.
But I didn't really think thatstuff was happening very much.
and then went and studiedfilmmaking'cause I, didn't wanna

(07:09):
just be doing auditions andstuff.
I wanted to just be making weirdstuff.
in 2006, a massive, art squadopened in this sort of four
story, five story garage calledthe Audi Garage.
And it was the Invisible Circus.
And, they were staging cabaretsand specific, gallery shows.
And then ultimately this immensesite specific promenade theater

(07:33):
piece, full of circus and a lotof weird characters and
improvised performance androving musicians.
and it all had this kind of likeanti-capitalist sort of psychy
satirizing, but like a lot ofjoy and a lot of fun as well.
I started, I'd just got my own

Jolie (07:49):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (07:50):
and I started filming them.
'cause it was like vision oflike.
The kind of thing I wanted to beinvolved in, like the happenings
in the sixties and data andbowhouse and just like all these
nutters holding up in big oldbuildings and making whatever
they wanted to.
and ended up following themthrough a lot of different
squats in Bristol through tobecoming a company that was more

(08:14):
sort of negotiating access tolike bigger and more spectacular
buildings as the years went on.
And then about 2011, so 2007 Igot involved in making shows

Jolie (08:26):
Seven.

Naomi Smyth (08:26):
2008 I think I met Kay.
been like coming up with weirdcharacters and improvised bits
and bobs with Sarah Fielding,who was like the theatrical
director of the circuits at thetime.
then Kay came down from Londonand we

Jolie (08:41):
and then Kate.

Naomi Smyth (08:43):
she was working at Shangrila in Glastonbury then.

Jolie (08:45):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (08:46):
she wasn't in

Jolie (08:47):
Um,

Naomi Smyth (08:48):
the full creative direction of the field like she
has been the past few years.
but she'd been there from thebeginning since it was lost
vagueness.
And so she really got the, like,how you would get into a
character in an installation andyou would stay in your character
for

Jolie (09:03):
stay in your car for

Naomi Smyth (09:05):
to audience members

Jolie (09:07):
hours.

Naomi Smyth (09:08):
making them laugh and just finding out what kind
of interaction they wanted tohave with you and like finding
the game and finding the funnyand like the relationships
between everyone.
And so she did.
Through part of the lattas,which were, this was this lat at
lost, Las Vegas at Glastonbury,where you could go and actually
get some stuff washed or youcould get like yourself pampered

(09:31):
a little bit.
But like, it was this sort ofeast end lat

Jolie (09:35):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (09:35):
where they were all like, had their own characters
and had their own sharedhistory.
So we really connected on thatand me and Kay and

Jolie (09:43):
So

Naomi Smyth (09:43):
a lot of stuff, for Carnevale shows.
That was an invisible circusshow.
We did four iterations of it, inthis massive old derelict public
building.
It's like a triangle, Bridewellpolice station.
So some of it is still artiststudios and I think one

Jolie (10:01):
of it.

Naomi Smyth (10:01):
a venue, but it's for youth project now.
But, when the Invisibles firstmoved in there, was like
derelict fireman's quarters andit had like a fireman's pole and
like a practice tower officesand it had cells and it had a
magistrate's court and just allof these mad sets all to do with
power as well, you know, andlike, power and the law and like

(10:25):
very exciting things to be in ifyou make anarchic work.
so that was part of it.
But in all of that, I methundreds of

Jolie (10:33):
So that was part of in all of that,

Naomi Smyth (10:35):
it's still, if I'm around someone who was there at
that

Jolie (10:38):
still, know,

Naomi Smyth (10:39):
out of the

Jolie (10:40):
around seven

Naomi Smyth (10:40):
at that time, there's

Jolie (10:41):
times.

Naomi Smyth (10:42):
a feeling of home That's this really beautiful
gift that we all had, likemaking those shows.
A lot of people were livingtogether.
I didn't live there, but justfelt quite close and embedded in
there.
And I was still filming until2011.
I made a feature length film theInvisibles called Circus.
No, just rehearsal.
And that's on YouTube now, it'san hour and 40 minutes long.

(11:04):
I'm super proud of it.

Jolie (11:06):
Oh, cool.

Naomi Smyth (11:07):
milking

Jolie (11:07):
Super proud of it.

Naomi Smyth (11:08):
and stuff for a bit and then hid it for a bit
thinking, oh no, I bet I can getsome money out of it again.
And eventually I was just like,it's just I'm, no let it go.
You can just watch it.
But, so I don't know.
There's a lot in amongst thattime.
Holly stop it.

Jolie (11:24):
time,

Naomi Smyth (11:24):
teaching

Jolie (11:25):
Holly?

Naomi Smyth (11:26):
and she offered her clowning workshops to the
Invisible Circus.
that was the beginning of herbecoming this clown teacher.
in her process of becoming aclown teacher, she studied with
more or less every clown andfooling teacher she could get
her hands on.
One of those was FrankieAnderson, who was who as Holly
tells it, originated fooling inBristol and Jonathan Kay

(11:49):
briefly, And then they splitways

Jolie (11:52):
Yeah.
She taught Jonathan.
Yeah.

Naomi Smyth (11:54):
of fooling.
And so Frankie

Jolie (11:57):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (11:59):
Holly studied with her a lot and then, but hadn't
been, so she was using foolingin her own practice, but hadn't
been sort of teaching it andsharing it explicitly.
until I think about 2010, 12,I'm not really sure.
she'd been teaching it a coupleof years.
I think

Jolie (12:17):
teaching

Naomi Smyth (12:17):
went to see the first

Jolie (12:19):
a.

Naomi Smyth (12:20):
show of fooling that I'd ever seen.
Some of my friends, ed Rapleywas in that cohort.
Adam Blake convened the wholething'cause he wanted to learn
fooling for a solo show he wasmaking.
and I could not believe it.
I was like, just,

Jolie (12:35):
I

Naomi Smyth (12:35):
On fire to see like individual performance.
just do a show.
Just not no premise, no props,no.
Like, it's like, hmm, I'm here.
What am I gonna do?
anything.

Jolie (12:47):
am

Naomi Smyth (12:47):
And for them to fly in that,

Jolie (12:49):
and for them to fly.

Naomi Smyth (12:50):
and hilarious and sometimes like arks and a bit
shit.
But like mostly I, I've, I'verarely, I've rarely not enjoyed
a fooling show.
Like it's probably my favoritemedium.
So I had to train, then I had tolearn how to do it.
So I've been doing that forabout 10 years.

Jolie (13:08):
Yeah.
'cause actually we've talked toquite a few people about
falling, but I don't thinkanyone, has heard yet what a
falling show is like.
So you touched on it a bit therethat nothing's prepared.
It's a bit like watching atightrope walker, but as a
performer, like you, you'reputting yourself out there
without anything, which is areally foolish thing to do.

(13:29):
Why would you get on a stagewith nothing prepared?

Naomi Smyth (13:31):
Yeah.

Jolie (13:32):
but is there any more to it than you would like?
What is it that's, yeah.
What is it that sort of set youon fire about that?
Because it probably sounds justlike absolute torture to anyone
listening.

Naomi Smyth (13:42):
I think,

Jolie (13:43):
Well.

Naomi Smyth (13:43):
I think Holly's a good teacher of it, having been
through a lot of.
Clown teachers will just lo youto the wolves and tear down if
you're not immediately funny.
If your jokes aren't like bam,bam, bam.
she's sort of like, I know thata lot of performers thrive on
that, but I

Jolie (14:02):
Know?

Naomi Smyth (14:03):
And

Jolie (14:04):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (14:04):
Holly found it sort of quite damaging to her
confidence as well.
But so the way she does thetraining, is quite soft and you
kind of all learn to likesupport each other.
And it's an atmosphere of likenoncritical feedback kind of
thing because it kind of takesus red that if you're going up

(14:25):
and performing in front ofpeople.
Without any clue what you'regonna do, you're not always
gonna feel great about it, andyou've already got plenty of
inner critics, who are gonnagive you shit about it, and it
can feel quite vulnerableinternally.
So for me anyway, the trainingis in, like courage and trusting
yourself, and not, not mindingpeople, seeing you struggle,

Jolie (14:50):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (14:51):
them paralyze you and carrying on through the
sticky bits.
So you might get like a collageof

Jolie (14:59):
And so you.

Naomi Smyth (15:00):
get a bit of someone'cause you change spots.
Okay.
So the way we would do a foolingshow is Holly would, we've
started sharing facilitation alittle bit more now, but it was
always Holly before he wouldframe it for everybody and tell
the audience

Jolie (15:16):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (15:16):
the form is.
because if the audience don'tknow that you haven't rehearsed
they don't know that none ofit's written, I think for one
thing, like it's not asexciting.
It's not it that you don't knowthat there's a drop below the
type rope.
So she would do that framingholding.
And then would have slots of 20minutes, sometimes half an hour

(15:39):
each, and you would go on and

Jolie (15:42):
go

Naomi Smyth (15:43):
see what comes up first and whatever comes up
first.
You play that.
And

Jolie (15:50):
whatever up first.

Naomi Smyth (15:51):
a form it is very open.
a lot of people, their firstpooling shows like when you're
training, a lot of what comes upfirst is like howling terror.
and it's like you're advised tosort of play that.
if that's what's there, likeplay it, show it, I always say
it's so funny'cause that is likewhen the audience understand

(16:13):
what you're doing, if, if theysee a performer play that they
get it immediately.
'cause that's like, that's thereason everyone doesn't do it.
cause like, that's one of thethings that comes up is just
like,

Jolie (16:25):
Yeah, it's terrifying.

Naomi Smyth (16:27):
like what if I say nothing?
What if this is shit?
What if I say something reallyself-incriminating?
What if I, you know, what if Ihaven't earned my place on this
stage by the end of it?
And it's like, but usually ifthe first thing is howling
terror, each piece, eachpersonality or mode that you go

(16:47):
through each fragment.
We call a mask.
So if the first mask is the, themask of Harling terror, you
start with that one.
You might amplify it, but you'renot gonna do it for 20 minutes.
Might return to it, butsomething else is gonna emerge.
When you've held in

Jolie (17:05):
Something,

Naomi Smyth (17:05):
while, then you might be banging your hands on
the floor and you noticesomething sparkly on the floor
and pick it up and like thenyou're in a different mask and
something else is happening.
Or you find yourself funny andthen you're in a different

Jolie (17:20):
find and.

Naomi Smyth (17:21):
at the scared one.
and you can put all those piecesin dialogue with each other.
there's something about itthat's very emblematic of.
Like in like what it's likeinside to be a human being?

Jolie (17:34):
Yeah.
What, what's happening on theinner world with all the
different voices?
It's interesting to hear that.
'cause it's a differentstructure to the falling that I
work with.
We call it a repertory company.
So we have our repertorycompany, but we don't, the thing
that I've always noticed withyou guys is I think that you are
better at performing in termsof, the ease.

(17:57):
It's easier for you guys toperform.
There's a, there's an ease and aplayfulness and a, freedom that
you have from your.
W lineage that I think, we are abit more thorough, browed and a
bit more, hard on ourselves.
On the one that I've trained in,I feel like there's a bit more
cosmic depth to the one thatI've trained in.

(18:19):
It feels like there's a bit moreof a, like universal, I dunno,
magic, shamanic ness to it.
even though he doesn't, Jonathandoesn't send him himself up as a
guru.
There is quite a lot ofphilosophical and I dunno,
mystical kind of discussion andaspect to it.
But, something that I havenoticed, and I think this is

(18:39):
true of all of the sort ofteachers you were talking about,
the ones that are hard onpeople, that they really bring
out, the shy, unassuming peoplethat haven't yet really fully
expressed themselves, likethey're really into those
people.
Whereas if you are someone who'salready quite self-expressed and
out there and quite anextrovert, they have to break.
It's almost like.

(18:59):
They wanna break you down.
And I dunno whether it's becausethey themselves were people that
were quite shy and they don'tlike confident people.
Or whether it's, because peoplewith a bit of ego, I dunno, I
dunno whether it's for peoplewith a bit of ego needs breaking
down a bit.
I dunno what it is, but I kindof got to a point in myself

(19:20):
where I was like, I don't thinkyou are ever gonna forgive me
for how confident I am.
and it's not all ego.
I, I struggled to, you know, letgo of my ego.
But it, I think everybody does,And so I found it refreshing to
be around you guys'cause it feltlike.
The people that you work withand bring to Glastonbury and the
freedom they had was from a muchmore confident and playful place

(19:43):
and less melancholic and kind ofdelicate and gentle, which is
what it felt like.
My world basically in my world,if you are a melancholic, shy,
gentle, delicate thing, which iswonderful'cause they've got so
much to give and often don'thave a spotlight and center
stage place to do it, then theyreally shine.
And us sort of more confidentpeople are a bit like, you know,

(20:06):
shut up.
whereas with you guys it waslike everyone could just go for
it and be as big and loud andcrazy as possible.
And that really sitsGlastonbury.
'cause you can't be all delicateand vulnerable performing at
Glastonbury.
You've gotta be very thick skin.
So it was refreshing for me.
I really enjoyed that.

Naomi Smyth (20:22):
Oh, good.

Jolie (20:23):
Oh good.

Naomi Smyth (20:23):
I think

Jolie (20:24):
Yeah.
Well I think

Naomi Smyth (20:25):
few fools

Jolie (20:26):
I've always tried something.

Naomi Smyth (20:28):
but increasingly there are people who've, who've
just done improv or, differenttypes of training who haven't
necessarily done.
the full school.
but it's definitely, I think alot of people as well have just
done a lot of festival work andyou do end up with this sort of
Teflon, Teflon skin about you,you know, you've got like engage

(20:51):
the people to come and play withyou'cause that's what you're
there to do.
But then also, like, you getpeople, you get wasted people,
you get handsy people, you getaggressive people and you've
just got to like, whether youare trained as a fool or not, it
helps, I will say that, but way,if you're gonna keep going back

(21:16):
at Shangla, you have tounderstand that like.
It is not like an audiencethat's gonna sit and be quiet
and you don't know what theindividuals are

Jolie (21:24):
It's

Naomi Smyth (21:24):
Like

Jolie (21:24):
not.

Naomi Smyth (21:24):
individuals are gonna come and splatter their
personality onto you as well,and you're just like, okay,
right.
I'm staying in character, I'mdoing my thing.
Like, are you enjoying it?
Like, oh, whose boundaries aregonna get, stepped over And
trying to make sure they enjoyit.
But also, yeah, I mean a lot ofpeople I know have been done

(21:45):
festival performance these hourson end in character especially
late at night, have experiencedsome like aggression, some like
sexual harassment.
to not take it personally and tobe able to take care of each
other as a crew and just to knowYou can just snap out of
character and tell'em to fuckoff that's allowed.

(22:06):
it's necessary.
And you've gotta, maintain yourboundaries

Jolie (22:09):
So

Naomi Smyth (22:10):
different kind of improvisation, right?
Like interpersonal dealing withwhatever comes along.
And then someone might be supershy and just really curious
intimidated to talk to you andlike, how easy and fun can you
make it for that person toengage with what you're
offering?

Jolie (22:26):
I'm always surprised at how, Unproblematic it is
performing to such a hedonisticcrowd.
I've not had any very unpleasantexperiences.
I've had the odd kind of like,you're a bit Mm.
But, it's never been, and yeah,and like you say, I dunno, seven
or eight years, I've never had ahorrible experience.
It's always been fun.
And considering performing tozombies, it's quite incredible

(22:47):
that we've managed to have somuch fun with people.
it is really playful becausepeople are in a very open head
space and so they're up for thecraziness and the weirdness and
you're taking them to adifferent reality.
I just love that.
I love that we're, blowingpeople's minds.
That's something that I reallyenjoy about it.

Naomi Smyth (23:05):
Yeah.
I.

Jolie (23:22):
I wanted to ask you about the work that you've then moved
on to doing because you've goneinto quite a different direction
and you are doing your PhD.
are you still loving the workthat you are doing or are you
sick of it and you never want totouch it ever again, but tell us
about where you are.
Trajectory is taken you since.

Naomi Smyth (23:39):
Yes.
Well, so from back when I firststarted with the Invisibles,
I've always had a tech angle tomy work.
during that time I was auniversity technician teaching
video tech, so like videocameras, microphones, edit
suites, and making video myself.
And I brought that into theinvisible circus stuff.

(24:00):
So I'd Like looping TV channels,different shows we were doing.
So like found footage and likeold adverts and spoof adverts
that we had made and like spoofTV shows that we had made.
And it would all be this, like,this is what I think the telly
would be like in this world.
working at a university, I workat Busbar University, and I have

(24:21):
often had that as a part-timejob that enabled me to creative
stuff and, take advantage of thelong academic holidays when they
didn't need me as much to kindof their kit and stuff like
that.
it's been quite supportive formy practice.
in media studies you come intocontact with people who are
using tech for the arts One ofmy colleagues was into immersive

(24:45):
sound, so we made a binauralsound installation, I drew on
the fooling for that.
I researched it and wrote thescript and performed it.
my friend Ruth, who's done a PhDin Binaural Sound, sound,
designed it and edited it, Imade a little installation.
It was a writer's desk, calledthe Writing Mind.
So the voices in the head would,when the writer sat to write,

(25:09):
come from all these differentdirections.
And there were sort ofdistractions and fears and
self-doubt coming from aroundhere and like focus and seeing
the light ahead coming from thisway and like kind of placing
those voices that you would getin a fooling show kind of around
the head in the soundscape.
And I applied for a PhD inemerging technologies.

(25:33):
what I was gonna do was look atproductions like War of the
Worlds, or BoomTown at the timehad a whole venue that was full
of a lot of VR experiences AndI'd been working for them for
several years at that point aswell, running micro venues.
And that's what I was gonna do,is look at how immersive theater

(25:54):
in person, immersive theater isusing emerging technology and
kind of how it meshes in and thecommonalities between entering a
fictional narrative in virtualreality or in a spatial
soundscape versus doing so inperson with live performers how
those are interlinking, if theyare, how does it function, all

(26:15):
that stuff.
And then Covid happened and allof that work was immediately
illegal and it was, you know,theater was canceled
indefinitely.
So, I pivoted my PhD to be aboutwhat are immersive theater
artists doing in this time?
specifically, we are people whodon't think in the way of like,

(26:36):
we present the show on the stageand you sit over there.

Jolie (26:40):
Hmm.

Naomi Smyth (26:41):
doesn't translate perfectly to video.
Everyone knows that there's ashared

Jolie (26:45):
Hmm.

Naomi Smyth (26:46):
there's an embodiment.
That's missing.
It's like you are in a spacethat's resonating and vibrating
with whatever's going on at thestage and whatever everyone's
feelings are, but it translatesmore easily than medium where
you are coming face to face withsomeone and saying, I've got
stories to tell you.
How do you wanna hear it?
You are part of it as well.
are playing this role and I'mplaying that role.

(27:08):
And the kind of stuff we woulddo with the Invisibles Shangri
La or BoomTown, where theperformer casts the audience
member, and offers a game.
So we've done job centers, donecampaigns, we've done, Charity
muggers, like Street Charity,muggers last year.
and playing with theseinteractions that people already

(27:31):
understand, but that aren'tusually a source of and

Jolie (27:35):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (27:46):
and make a conversation happen?
And that

Jolie (27:49):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (27:50):
the reciprocity of it, the back and forth of it is
the pivotal part it because.
In my experience, that part isvery dependent on eye contact,
language, all the differenttypes of body language, how
close someone's willing to standto you, their gestures, their
posture, what you can hear, andsense of their breathing, like

(28:13):
eye contact, super important,tone of voice, stuff like that.
And like, we can, we can do someof that over video, but can't
see my whole body and the eyecontact is illusion of eye
contact.
You know, like I feel like I canlook into your eyes, but it is
just a picture of you and theframe is not, you know, if I'm

(28:36):
looking.
Into the, like, the eyes of theaudience.
I'm staring into this likepinhole camera on my laptop,
which feels completelydehumanized and weird, but I'm
making like eye contact.
so what were immersive theaterartists doing to get as close as
possible to that feeling?

Jolie (28:54):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (28:55):
three case studies.
One is a telephone show, amazingtelephone show called The Tele
Library by Yannick TrapmanO'Brien.
one to one phone conversationwhere you bring part of the show
and he brings part of the showand it's very reciprocal, but
there's no nonverbalcommunication.

Jolie (29:12):
There's no

Naomi Smyth (29:13):
it's a social VR show that takes place in

Jolie (29:16):
welcome to Social,

Naomi Smyth (29:17):
need a headset.
which is, makes it quiteinaccessible for a lot of
people.
But they,

Jolie (29:22):
which.

Naomi Smyth (29:23):
that's a beautiful show as well.
'cause you can make the audiencemember into this small child and
the performers play the parents.
Then you know what your role isand you play out this drama,
you're playing someone else andtheir childhood memories and
like, and it's quitedisorienting and it's a bit

Jolie (29:39):
And quite

Naomi Smyth (29:40):
coded as well.

Jolie (29:42):
designed.

Naomi Smyth (29:42):
nurturing and holding of like how intimidating
that might be for an audiencemember

Jolie (29:47):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (29:48):
in a completely, completely alien digital
environment.
And another one was like a Zoomshow.
In boxes with kind of cuttingbetween performers.
and that was the leastreciprocal, but you could be
present as an audience member bysort of lighting yourself in
your home.
so the audience could see eachother, which is a thing that

(30:08):
wasn't available in the others.
and one whole chapter is all thestuff that I tried out with my
own work and

Jolie (30:14):
One

Naomi Smyth (30:15):
the Ridiculous, with the Fooling Company, we
were delivering week, fullschool altogether, six of us
with Holly, when the lockdownhappened, and we started out
doing it on Zoom and on phonecalls and like making recordings
that people could do exercisesto.
I then gradually built up todoing a fooling show on Zoom,
When the lockdowns were justlike starting to lift, half of

(30:37):
us were comfortable to be in atheater and the other half
weren't.
So we did a show where three ofus performed at home

Jolie (30:43):
Coming

Naomi Smyth (30:44):
and that was streamed onto the back of the
stage at the wardrobe.

Jolie (30:48):
wardrobe.

Naomi Smyth (30:49):
performed in person at the wardrobe.
And we had like an invited of 10people gave them free tickets
and they all had to wear a maskand stuff like that.
but we also streamed that wholething to an at audience.
So that was many.
Oh yeah.
I made a VR show.

Jolie (31:04):
So that was many.
I made a vr.

Naomi Smyth (31:06):
show called

Jolie (31:08):
I made a solo

Naomi Smyth (31:09):
I got,

Jolie (31:10):
VR

Naomi Smyth (31:10):
Council

Jolie (31:11):
show

Naomi Smyth (31:11):
YCP funding to do that.
And I worked with an artist whomade me a landscape that
symbolized my internal world,was

Jolie (31:20):
landscape.

Naomi Smyth (31:21):
sort of visualize some of the things that I would
be showing people in a fullshow, but couldn't fully show
people

Jolie (31:29):
Visual.

Naomi Smyth (31:30):
and digitally.
I made scans of my homeenvironment and my

Jolie (31:35):
Hmm.

Naomi Smyth (31:36):
which was this little cramped little caravan
full of bits and bobs.
there were characters, differentavatars that were like my
younger self and different masksof mine.
I would switch avatars insteadof just doing it with voice and
body language like I would onstage as a fool.
So that was an interestingexperiment.
played with a lot of stuff and Iam still interested in it.

(31:58):
I think it's still relevant,even though we can be together
physically now technology's justthis layer that's into waven
with everything and kind ofincreasingly So the kind of
presence you can have throughtechnology and sort of looking
into that and how you can use itas an artist.

Jolie (32:13):
Lots of it's carried on and translated into our,
continued life.
Like the moon ceremonies that Ido every two weeks were from a,
what was a public show that wasmeant to be done in the Brighton
Fringe Festival, and we got thefunding for it.
And then because of lockdown, wecouldn't do it.
And then we had the costumes,which is what I wear at

(32:34):
BoomTown.
And I use them now still.
but we just did it all online.
So we were all there in ourseparate spaces and we really
went for it with the backdropsso that they corresponded with
our costumes and with theelements.
And then we held the moonceremonies online and actually
they work so well.
That's why I've carried on doingthem.
So I've done them ever since2020 because actually ceremony

(32:54):
through, Pointing to people onthe screen.
Basically someone chairing ameeting, because I think the
thing with Zoom is it's peopletalking over the top of each
other.
It can get a bit chaotic.
So when we were just hangingout, socializing on Zoom, it was
a bit of a mess.
But actually holding ceremonywhere the person holding the
ceremony is going round eachperson and asking everyone
individually what they're goingthrough and how they are and

(33:15):
what their, you know, what theirresponse is to whatever the
stuff is that's being said, thatworks really well.
And it just feels like a reallyspecial, sacred space and
actually is a really profoundspace.
And it means we can be togetherfrom all parts of the world.
And I think creativity reallyblossoms when there's
limitations.
And part of me doing thispodcast is the limitation of
being on an island as a theatermaker.

(33:37):
I can't perform to.
Thousands of people.
There's 500 people here andthere.
So it is like, how can I dosomething with what I have,
which is basically starlink anda computer and a microphone
well, I can do this.
this has been what I've come upwith and it is lovely because I
wouldn't have done thisotherwise, but the limitations

(33:57):
have pushed me to do.
So, yeah, it's cool.
I just wanted to say about.
Immersive theater.
The thing I love about immersivetheater is that it's about
reality.
the thing I got from Fooling,which is the cosmic bit, is that
the whole of life is theater.
you know, I can totally see thatin the work that you do as well.
playing with people and pointingout that we're all playing roles

(34:18):
and that, we know how to behavein this situation'cause it's a
script of sorts and that we arealways able to, twist that
script and mess around with it.
you realize that the wholething's made up and that we
could do something differentwith it.

Naomi Smyth (34:30):
Exactly when people realize, oh, I know this script.

Jolie (34:34):
Exactly.

Naomi Smyth (34:35):
we get to do it slightly differently time.
'cause it's a game and everyoneknows it's a game

Jolie (34:41):
Yeah.

Naomi Smyth (34:41):
it's important.

Jolie (34:42):
Brilliant.
Right.
Should we pull cards then?
So we're gonna pull three cards

Naomi Smyth (34:58):
love

Jolie (34:58):
and we'll see what the universe wants us to talk about.
Yay.
Excellent.
I'll um, just do my fingerreally slowly and you tell me
when to stop.
So I'll go like this.

Naomi Smyth (35:08):
Stop all this.

Jolie (35:09):
Ooh, that's a good one.
So it's the priestess.
So the priestess is, I thinkthis is a bit like what we were
just talking about with reality.
Sorry.
She's vibrating.
She looks like she's vibratingout of reality.
I suppose.
I'm interested actually, withthis card, I'm interested to
know what you think reality isand what, yeah, what do you

(35:29):
think it's all about?
What's your interpretation ofthis madness?

Naomi Smyth (35:33):
There are so many layers to it, aren't there?
And I think, having to earn aliving and the particular ways
in which we're expected to earnour living now kind of almost
keep you on a bit of a track onsort of a few, a few layers.
And almost not time to, comeout, to go up or to go down, to

(35:57):
kind of sink to the depths andbe very still and go inward.
Because of the demands to earn.
And it's like very, very hardto, because in a workspace, I
mean, some people have a jobwhere this isn't necessary, but
in most workplaces, even ifthey're remote, you are required

(36:17):
to spend most of your wakinghours behaving as if this bit is
the main bit.
And it's the most important bit,and not even this bit, but like
the particular script of yourworkplace and the particular
script of, you know, the desiredoutcome of your work.
And if you adhere to that sortof layer well enough, you'll be

(36:40):
remunerated.
And then you get to eat enoughsomewhere to live and then, you
know, and if you don't.
If you deviate off of that toomuch and you haven't got enough
to eat somewhere to live, if youcan't like nourish yourself and
your family, then it's evenharder.
And that, there's just no spaceto lift off or sink down and

(37:01):
explore.
But there's so much either side.
and this part really is, anillusion, but we're just
encouraged to think of it asreal life, you know?
'cause we're not set up tofacilitate each other to deviate
from it for any length of time.
you've almost only just got timeto point out that it's not real,

(37:22):
but no one's really got time tocomprehend the implications
that.

Jolie (37:26):
Like, yeah.
Okay, great.
I'll put that on my list ofthings to think about at some
point.
Yeah, no, totally.
I like that.
That's a really good descriptionbecause I feel very, like I, on
the one hand, I'm a Capricornand so I'm half goat and half
fish and the Capricorn goat bitof me is very political and,
literal and scientific andpractical.

(37:49):
And then the fish tail bit of meis really Wawa and out there and
I think I am pretty balanced.
I have quite a balanced life ofspending time in both.
But I really like the way thatyou just described that thin
layer because we are so trickedinto investing so much time and
effort in that.
I think most people don't.

(38:10):
Have that opportunity to thinkelsewhere and that that's, I
don't think that there'snecessarily anyone purposefully
doing that, although that couldbe questioned.
But there is definitely abenefit.
It's a bit like the same as usbeing put into years of age
groups at school.
I don't think that wasnecessarily done for nefarious
reasons, but the upshot of thatis that no one's ever learning

(38:34):
from previous, achievements interms of overthrowing.
authority or control.
We're always reinventing thewheel because we don't hear from
the generations previous thatthey managed to overcome some
obstacle by doing X, Y, and Z.
We're always like having tostart from scratch because we're
only talking to our peers.
And so yeah, there's, there isa, there is an element of

(38:56):
control by being kept in thesethin layers.
so yeah, I think that's reallyinteresting.
I like that.
If you enjoy this podcast, thenplease consider supporting me on
Patreon, which ispatreon.com/jolie.

(39:19):
Rose.
I absolutely love making thispodcast.
It is my dream job, and if Icould make this make me a
living, then I would be livingmy best life.
I already am living my bestlife, but I'm doing it without
any money.
But, uh, I'm getting by.
I am getting by, but I.

(39:40):
Would love it if I was able toactually make a proper living
out of this and not have to do,you know, extra work, working in
a pub and things like that.
And I create a lot of free workin the world, which I thoroughly
enjoy doing'cause I want work tobe accessible and for people to
be able to.
Explore the things that I finduseful.

(40:01):
The tools I find useful, likefollowing the moon phases, which
I help people to do throughholding moon ceremonies on Zoom
and putting out articles in thelocal press, and which I also
share on social media and,videos.
I put videos up each moon cycleas well, and so people are able
to tap into these, through.

(40:21):
Free mediums, and I love doingthat.
And I want things to be free asoften as possible.
I occasionally do charge forthings, and when I do, it's
because I need to make a living.
And also, I feel that sometimesyou need to make that kind of
financial commitment to make thework work deep enough, uh, which
I've talked about in previouspodcasts.

(40:42):
Like sometimes you need toinvest in what you're doing for
it to really hit.
Properly and land properly.
But on the whole, I try and makemy work free and accessible.
And so this podcast is free foranyone who wants to listen and
if you are able to financiallysupport it, then for three pound
a month you are saying thank youand you can do that through

(41:03):
Patreon.
And then for nine pound a month,you are also getting the videos
of the.
Podcasts.
And so you get to see meinterviewing my guests or me
just chatting to myself in aroom on my own, which is always
fun.
So hugely appreciate everyonewho supports me.
Thank you ever so much, and Ilove doing this so long.

(41:24):
Make, continue.
And if you aren't able to beable to financially support,
then you can spread the word farand wide on social media.
Talk about it, tell your friendsabout it, rate it, give it.
Star rating and um, yeah, just.
Keep listening and keep tellingpeople about it.
I am going to also be doing somelive work, uh, that you can come

(41:46):
along to, which includes theKooky Club on the 19th of June
in Guernsey.
If you are in the ChannelIslands Each month I, for the
kooky, the Secret Kooky TeaClub, I interview a surprise
guest and they're always aninteresting, inspiring person.
Normally a creative or anartist, but sometimes
scientists, all sorts ofdifferent things.

(42:06):
Curators and I interview themand we have a different chef
each time who creates adelicious.
Meal for us to share and it's toencourage people to be able to
have a nice out withoutdrinking.
You can drink alcohol if youwant to, but there's lots of
beautiful alcohol free drinksavailable and it's just to get
conversation going and yeah,spark debate without having to

(42:27):
be drunk.
And it's a brilliant evening.
I love it.
I'll also be at GlastonburyFestival at Shangrila in not
very many weeks time.
And if you are coming toGlastonbury Festival, do head
over to Shangrila and see theincredible.
Change of direction andcreativity, mayhem that we're
gonna be sharing in the naughtycorner.

(42:50):
So do come and have a look and Iam walking another pilgrimage in
September.
September and October.
Gonna be walking from land.
Well can Le Bowl near LANs, endto the Norfolk Coast.
And we're gonna be performingour mama's play of Georgia and
the dragon along the route.
Uh, so it's along the Michaelline and.
I will be doing a book launch,presale tour as part of it.

(43:12):
Encouraging people to pre-ordermy new book, walking with
Autumn, which is about the firstpilgrimage that I walked.
And yeah, pre-sales really helppush a book, so it would be
great if, uh, people could ordertheir copies ahead of time just
to give.
Give it an initial push and get,get it up there so that it's
noticed by the bookshops so thatthey'll stock it.

(43:35):
So I'd really appreciate ifpeople did that, and I can't
wait to share it with you.
I'm very proud of it.
I'm finishing the editing off aswe speak, and yeah, it'll be
coming out in September.
All very exciting.
And yeah, I think that's it fornow.
So on with the show.

(43:58):
Let's do another card.
Oh, right now you can tell mewhen to stop, Jane.
That's an interesting one.
I haven't, Pulled that one for awhile.
So this is the nine of discs.
So this is an earth card.
We're, we've just had the earthdark mean.
So we're in a, we're in a kindof earthy energy at the moment.
So this is gain, I mean, whatdoes that mean to you?
Is there anything that, that,that means to you?

(44:20):
Or even looking at the image,whether that means anything to
you?

Naomi Smyth (44:23):
Again, with an N.

Jolie (44:24):
Gain, yeah.
GAIN

Naomi Smyth (44:27):
Okay.

Jolie (44:27):
an interesting word'cause it's a bit like, yeah, what does
gain mean?
How do you gain.

Naomi Smyth (44:32):
Oh.
Yeah, I mean, you're talkingabout the earthy energy and
living in a field that's veryapparent at the moment.
like how everything is, has beenworking on out for quite some
time, and now suddenly it's allready and it's just like, like
the Hawthorne and the Magnolia'sbeen gone almost, and like

(44:55):
garlic and it's all just like,so there's that.

Jolie (44:58):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (44:59):
So I'm supposed to just be focusing on my PhD at
the moment, but opportunities toget a different job or something
that I consider more exciting orwhatever, keep popping up.
I keep like chasing after those,like a little fox after a rabbit
and like, yeah, Distractibility.

(45:19):
but just like kind of scamperingabout like, oh, that sounds
good.
be better than what I'm doing.
I'll chase that, I'll chasethat.

Jolie (45:27):
Down.

Naomi Smyth (45:28):
yeah, it's a lot of work and it's quite fragmenting,
of my attention and I'm noticingthat a lot at the moment.
I'm supposed to just be sittingdown and writing bloody big
essay, as often as I possiblycan.

Jolie (45:42):
Yeah.

Naomi Smyth (45:42):
chasing things,

Jolie (45:44):
Yeah, we talk about in, with Jonathan k the great
distractor and I feel likethat's part of this layer is the
distraction of social media, oftv, of, things that just take
your attention, like TikTok thatare forever being quicker and
quicker to just consume so thatyour brain's just quickly moving
on to something before you evenhave time to fully digest

(46:06):
anything or like really sort of,savor it and devour it and have
that nourishment from it becauseyou're then moving on to the
next thing.
And it's interesting yourreflection of the earth.
'cause I had a, a moment when Iwas on the first pilgrimage that
I did where I had this visionof.
It was, it was getting close tothe end.

(46:28):
I think it was almost like thepenultimate day of the
pilgrimage.
And I had a Wii next to a hedgeand I suddenly had a real
emotional outburst because I wassad that I wasn't gonna get to
hang out with my hedge friendsanymore, and that I was gonna
have to go back and sit in achair and I didn't wanna sit in
a chair and I could feel that mybody was like, no, don't make me

(46:48):
sit down again.
And I had this vision of thisdirty taral in just covered in
muck and underneath it wasDonald Trump and Boris Johnson,
and just all the noise andnonsense and the threat of war
and all this like horriblegrittiness under this taral in
and above.
It was this beautiful hedge andland and sky and everything was

(47:08):
stunning and beautiful.
And I was being told thatreality was what was under the
tar pooling,

Naomi Smyth (47:13):
Yeah.

Jolie (47:14):
I was meant to get back under there and participate in
this.
Nonsense.
Rather than being out in thisbeautiful, hetero, fresh air,
lovely land, that's what isactually real.
And that for me is reality.
Like even this reality mightvibrate and turn into something
else.
It might be a game or whateverit is, but beyond this thin

(47:34):
layer, which is this made upconscious thing that humans have
created as a game on thisplanet, the actual planet.
Which is why I would say I'm apagan.
'cause I worship the earth whereit's like, well, it is here.
It's definitely here.
And I definitely worship it.
So I'm happy to call myself thatwithout any of the trimmings.
I don't assign myself to any,faiths or anything to do with

(47:54):
that.
But I definitely worship themagnificent land that I walk
upon because I think it's worthworshiping.

Naomi Smyth (48:02):
Yeah.
And it, it's so immenselyreductive to view it all as,

Jolie (48:06):
Yeah.

Naomi Smyth (48:07):
raw material to be turned into like tokens in our
little thin layer game, when itall has its own life.

Jolie (48:16):
God.
Yeah.
That's great.
As again, I really like the wayyou're thinking about that.
It's, that's what we see it asis it's almost like in,
Minecraft or whatever.
I don't actually really know howyou play Minecraft, but just
this, it's just the things touse to, to put within the game
is just stuff to consume and buyand Yeah, you're right.
It's taken away the, theimmensity of what we actually

(48:37):
have and reducing it down tojust like Lego bricks that we
can put together and use, butit's all about using and
consuming and taking rather thanappreciating what we have.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

(49:05):
great.
Let's do another card.
You say, stop.
Ooh, She's cool.
The queen of wands.
So she's very fiery and powerfullooking.
She looks like she's on fire andshe knows what she's doing.
And wands is very much aboutpassion and drive and your
desire and kind of the, not thehead.

(49:26):
The head is the wands fire isthe, like the bit that makes you
wanna do things like the enginebehind what you're doing.
And she's obviously very, verypowerful in her sort of
combustion engine.
What does that mean to you?

Naomi Smyth (49:40):
Just makes me think of

Jolie (49:41):
think of like,

Naomi Smyth (49:43):
really.
people I live with next door inthe field who like,

Jolie (49:47):
I live with

Naomi Smyth (49:47):
like being fueled by a desire to

Jolie (49:51):
like.

Naomi Smyth (49:51):
do, but all of that fire being like directed towards
like loving and joyful and a lotyeah, I don't wanna make any
great claims for myself becauseI used to do a lot more activism
than I do now.

Jolie (50:03):
I don't wanna make

Naomi Smyth (50:04):
a lot of my friends

Jolie (50:05):
myself, because

Naomi Smyth (50:06):
a lot of their heart and creative energy into
Activism for the earth andagainst genocide and for
refugees and just like,

Jolie (50:15):
just,

Naomi Smyth (50:16):
yeah, trans rights and inclusion and just like,
cause as an artist you have tohave a fire to make things.
so the people that that makes methink of are all quite, um,
doing that in quite a connected

Jolie (50:31):
Of.

Naomi Smyth (50:31):
Like not so much a sort of shut away way,

Jolie (50:34):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (50:35):
this like deep well of love and connection.
like a sort of shared And I'minspired by that.
It's, um, it's sort of fiery,fiery lovingness, and they're
not, you know, the people I'mthinking of are not just soft
and cuddly, like they're aswell.

Jolie (50:53):
Yeah.
That's what I love about ourworld.
This part of our world Is thekind of mad max ness of it.
There's so many times when I'mat Shangrila or like at BoomTown
and I just think we are on theright side for the apocalypse.
'cause we are really strong withnails.
We know what we're doing andwe're gonna have a really good
time while we're doing it.

(51:13):
So I, I'm definitely well up forbeing with us guys because we
are gonna have fun.
We've got all the best music.
It's yeah, it's something to beso proud of.

Naomi Smyth (51:21):
Yeah.
People who

Jolie (51:22):
Yeah.
It's something the squat world'screated, I think.
Yeah, exactly.
I think being in the squat spacemeant that we had the space and
time to create things and Ithink it's harder nowadays for
young people to have that.
Space because Squatting's notlegal anymore.
I mean, there are ways of doingit, obviously, but it just feels

(51:43):
like that was a privilege forour moment in time for us
growing up, was that we wereable to experiment and we had
that space for that to happen.
And yeah, I feel like workingmore working class people are no
longer part of the creativeworld or the artistic world.
That's the sort of mainstreamartistic world in the same way
anymore.

(52:04):
And I think that the lack ofsquatting is a huge part of
that.
I think that we, have been putat a huge disadvantage to not
have that space and time to beable to create.

Naomi Smyth (52:12):
Yeah.
I mean, I grew up.
Pretty middle class, but it's aloss to me

Jolie (52:16):
Yeah, I mean, I,

Naomi Smyth (52:17):
to

Jolie (52:17):
I grew up,

Naomi Smyth (52:18):
the entire world

Jolie (52:19):
but it's.

Naomi Smyth (52:20):
much less accessible to have that creative
freedom as a young person andconnect with a really wide range
of people who want to be makingstuff and have skills and the
drive and deserve that time andthat space to do it.
But it's so much harder becauseof like, you know, every space
in a,

Jolie (52:40):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (52:40):
has to be making money for somebody.
a

Jolie (52:42):
Every space And so my last question for you is the
Chaos Crusade.
So is there anything that youcould suggest to listeners to
experiment with and try out thatbreaks the matrix in some way

(53:05):
and just, yeah.
Makes reality a bit more obviousthat it's a game and put some
extra playfulness into ourexperiences.

Naomi Smyth (53:12):
Yes.
so I like to recommend, a tinylittle bit

Jolie (53:17):
So

Naomi Smyth (53:17):
pressure fooling.

Jolie (53:18):
like teeny, tiny little

Naomi Smyth (53:20):
to

Jolie (53:21):
pressure.

Naomi Smyth (53:22):
pick a mate, pick someone that you trust and that
you, who makes you laugh and youmake them laugh and, I wrote
down a bit of the procedure,like a mi micro version of what
we do, when we're doing fulltraining in beyond the
ridiculous, but just for you andyour mate not in front of a big

(53:42):
audience.
do a little warmup,

Jolie (53:45):
So,

Naomi Smyth (53:45):
and maybe try some fooling.
So see what comes out when youstand in front of someone who's
witnessing you and you justplay.
So see if you can noticebuilding up to this, but also
mentally discard any plans thatyou're making beforehand.
'cause once you've decided to doit, your brain will try to make
plans for you so that you're notjust standing

Jolie (54:08):
Mm-hmm.

Naomi Smyth (54:09):
The key is you've gotta stand there with nothing.
So you could start with justwords or just movement.
With eye contact with the personor without, completely up to
you.
Outdoor fooling can be prettyfun.
a lot more to look at andinteract with.
Stay open to all the sensoryenvironment around you
basically.
So it's not just brain, but alsoyour body.

(54:33):
what's your body feeling?
You can make something out ofthat.
if you feel awkward or horribleor angry or shut down suddenly,

Jolie (54:42):
If you.

Naomi Smyth (54:43):
see if you can just let that show.
See if you can amplify that andnot pretend that those feelings
aren't there.
'cause they might just pass ifyou play'em out and you're only
with your trusted buddy.
so you do find something, try tofollow it and amplify it as far
as you can.
During this time, you're runninga timer.
Okay.
So I recommend two or threeminutes.

(55:04):
five, if you're feeling superbrave and your buddy is up for
it, it can feel quite long, evenif it's just two minutes.
and then when the timer goesoff, sit with your buddy.
the feedback model that we usewith Holly of a series of
questions.
the questions don't leave anyroom for saying that was
rubbish, or Here's the bit Ididn't like,

Jolie (55:26):
and the questions about

Naomi Smyth (55:27):
You throw all that out, And it's really important
because if something came outthat

Jolie (55:31):
They all

Naomi Smyth (55:31):
vulnerable about, your

Jolie (55:33):
really important

Naomi Smyth (55:34):
already having a

Jolie (55:35):
now that you feel vulnerable

Naomi Smyth (55:36):
it from your buddy

Jolie (55:37):
that your inner critic is probably already

Naomi Smyth (55:40):
would say to the person who's just fooled,

Jolie (55:42):
well,

Naomi Smyth (55:43):
how is that

Jolie (55:43):
so the

Naomi Smyth (55:44):
was

Jolie (55:44):
would

Naomi Smyth (55:44):
you?

Jolie (55:45):
say person

Naomi Smyth (55:46):
And then the fool might speak and they might speak
for one or two minutes.
You could do a timer if you wantor not.

Jolie (55:52):
speak,

Naomi Smyth (55:52):
after that, fool might

Jolie (55:55):
and

Naomi Smyth (55:56):
what did you see?
some stuff.
'cause sometimes you forget whatyou've

Jolie (56:01):
what did you see?

Naomi Smyth (56:01):
if someone could tell you what they saw, what did
you enjoy, what touched you,

Jolie (56:07):
What did you enjoy,

Naomi Smyth (56:08):
did you want more of?

Jolie (56:10):
touched you,

Naomi Smyth (56:11):
And then you can swap and

Jolie (56:12):
and what did you more

Naomi Smyth (56:13):
person you are witnessing and your feedback.

Jolie (56:15):
and.

Naomi Smyth (56:16):
and you might hate it, but if you hate it, you
never have to do it again.
but you might discover somethings about what's going on for
you and the games you'replaying.

Jolie (56:25):
It is just such a fascinating process doing
falling.
'cause you keep coming upagainst the same obstacles in
yourself.
Like I feel like I've been doingit, I dunno, 20 years or
something stupid and I don'tfeel like I've particularly
improved, you know, alwaysworking with the same obstacles.
And it's that thing that youwere saying about like, let

(56:46):
yourself be surprised.
That's the, the way I think ofit is don't plan what you're
gonna do because it's fun tosurprise yourself.
You know, like we do a thingwhere we sort of imagine a red
curtain and then we pull backthe red curtain and, just start
seeing something, you know, andjust go with what you see.
And I always love that becausethe red curtain's quite a good

(57:06):
distraction from planning.
So your planning bit of thebrain can just imagine a really
good red curtain and then youput it back and then it's like,
surprise.
What you gonna, what you gonnanow see?
And yeah, it's just fun to dothis because.
Otherwise, we're just doing whatwe always do, which is planning
it all.
that's the thing.
we are making it up as we goalong, that that is what we are

(57:28):
doing.
No one knows what they're doing.
That's why everyone has impostersyndrome.
It is taking that and owning itand playing with it even more.
It's like, okay, can I stepoutside of this role that I've
created already that wascompletely made up and let's
create something new.
And that is so liberating.

Naomi Smyth (57:44):
Yeah.

Jolie (57:45):
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, thank you so much, Naomi.
It's been amazing to talk toyou.
And it is a very different feel.
the falling lineage that you'refrom, it feels so much lighter.
It's interesting to observe.
I think it's more feminine.
There's a more feminine aspectobviously,'cause it is from
Frankie, but it does feel a bitmore loving and gentle.

(58:06):
So yeah, it's interesting to dipinto it.
But yeah.
Thank you ever so much.
Huge love to you.

Naomi Smyth (58:12):
Oh, of love, mate.
Thanks for asking me.
That was the awesome Nomi smile.
I absolutely loved delving intothis different take on fooling.

(58:32):
I feel like the lineage of theFrankie Holy Stop it lineage is
more feminine, but also moreactive and more activism, and it
taps more into the punk andarchic squatter side of me,
which is a whole, you know, areaof my reality.

(58:54):
And it's a completely differentarea to my spiritual Jonathan K
area.
So it's interesting that there'sthese two sort of strands to my
fooling experience'cause thatthey feel so different.
And it was great to talk toNaomi'cause she made me think

(59:16):
about things from thatperspective, from from this
other strand perspective.
And.
I just, I, I love it.
I love how, how differentreality is all the time and.
Yeah, I think everyone shoulddefinitely have a go at fooling.
I brilliant to just do it inyour living room with a friend.

(59:37):
I realized that Yeah, you, youare doing it all the time on
your own.
It's as soon as you've gotsomeone there observing you is
the word permission.
It's giving yourself permissionto be who you are and be as
relaxed and as crazy as you arewhen you are on your own.
But with other people, and youprobably don't even notice
you're doing it when you're onyour own,'cause you're just
doing it with yourself.
You're just in your own headsdoing whatever.

(01:00:00):
It's giving a permission.
It's such a key word for me.
Giving yourself permission toown the creative and spiritual
and playful things that you aredoing.
For them to be able to suddenlybe shared.
And by doing that, it suddenlyramps them up like, oh my God.
You know, you gotta own them andfeel proud of them or feel VA

(01:00:23):
that they're valid to share, butthey are.
And when you do, everyone lovesit because they can see you are
sharing your inner world andthen they feel like they can
too.
And that's the wholerelationship of the fool and the
king is that.
The king is used to everyone,you know, kissing his ass.
And then the fool is just beingthemselves.
And because the fool is beingthemselves and saying it as it

(01:00:43):
is and and not pretending to puton some act, it means the king
feels like they can.
And that's what you're doingwith the fool and the audience
is your sharing yourself so thatthe audience feels like they're
able to.
And then everyone is being morehonest and open and playful and
not just pretending to.
Exist in the theater show oflife that we've created.

(01:01:06):
Like this is how you pretend tobe a human and this is how you
pretend to be in society.
And this is how, you know, a, acommunity's meant to behave.
It's all made up.
And by fooling it, it gets thatout there and shows that.
And so that's why it's a deeplyspiritual thing, which is more
like my Jonathan K world andalso a great tool for activism
and messing with reality and,and.

(01:01:28):
Questioning the constructs ofreality, which is what the more
activism me, Naomi, uh, strandto falling does for me.
So absolutely fascinating.
I love it.
It's so interesting and I'mgonna definitely go and do some
holly slash Frankie workshops todip my toe into this other

(01:01:50):
version of the art form thatI'm.
Have been.
Yeah, my life's been changedfrom exploring, so why not?
Explore it even deeper and go insome different directions with
it.
So I'm gonna go do that.
That's my, uh, I'm gonna putthat in my things to do either
this year or next year.
Give that a, give that a go.

(01:02:10):
I definitely think you shouldtoo.
Go and do a, a workshop eitherwith the female lineage or the
Jonathan k asking lineage.
Go check out Frankie, check outHolly, stop it and have a go.
I dare you.
Thank you ever so much.
It was wonderful to speak toNaomi and I shall see the anon.

(01:03:01):
The.