Take Your Retirement Accounts To A Whole New Level with James Jones

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everybody, Hey, we are back with our next
speaker here at note Camp twenty twenty two, and we
are honored to have the CEO of IRA ex change
out in that mister James Jones join us here from
sunny Arizona, originally from the Boston near in the Massachusetts.
Might know it's a little of an accent, but I
think he's gonna get out in the sunshine and chill him.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
But here just sun spread a little sun and.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Shine in on some of the different things you can
do with your iras and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
So James, man so honored to have you join us
here on note Camp.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Man, thank you, Scott, really appreciate being here. And the accent,
by the way, is probably a blend of the two
worst both a little bit of New York and a
little bit of Boston.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
So please forgive me. Hey, hey, nothing wrong with that,
nothing at all.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
So jae On we first when we were talking the
other day. Once you share a little bit about your
background and how you got into doing what you're doing now,
because I think it's a really really valuable context for
folks to get at the feel for you. I'm where
you're Yeah, you met so started.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
My career at merrilynch in wealth management. Managed about five
hundred and twenty five million in assets. And our world
in those days, through the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
And into early two thousands was.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Really publicly treated securities, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and ETFs.
And so when we talked about diversifying a portfolio, I
think about how naive we were, and that was.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Publicly traded securities.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
So when we went through the two thousand and one meltdown,
we had, you know, a fair amount of our stocks
in blue chip stocks New York Stock Exchange. We saw
investors lose sixty percent of their portfolio. Fast forward to
two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, when Nasdek
was going to the moon and everybody was making all
kinds of crazy money. If you were invested in Nasdek stocks,

(01:47):
all technology, you saw an eighty percent dip in your portfolio,
which took you eleven years to get back to even
So after that I made a conscious decision to move
into alternative assets. You know, when we talk about some
of the best managed portfolios in the world, you know,
I referenced the Yale Endowment Fund best track record since

(02:09):
nineteen eighty five seventeen percent average return forty percent in
real estate related assets. And that's the majority more millionaires
I don't have to tell you made out of real
estate related investing right, thirty percent private equity, private debt,
venture capital, only twenty percent in publicly traded stock, bonds,

(02:31):
media funds, and ETFs. Really opened my eyes. The way
I got into the industry was actually going to work
with a self directed irate custodian also, which I'm not
ashamed to say, although I kind of am ashamed to say.
Being a Merrilynchburger, we were supposed to know a lot
about a lot. Never heard of his self directed irate.
And it took me probably nine months working anto custodian

(02:54):
to understand it. I just I thought, Okay, I'm really
not smart enough. I think I'm just going to go
back into the industry. I really don't get it. It's
so complicated. And after about nine months things started to
click and Gell and say, Okay, I think I got this.
This is really interesting. There are thousands of asset classes
that you can invest into. And again the number one
asset held in self directed irase real estate related assets.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, it is how much do you think how much
total do you think is held. I've heard different numbers
out there, but as far as what's truly in a
I mean every IRA is self directed, but in truly
I got self directed custodia can be in notes, in
real estate. How much do you think is invested in
self directed diary custodians?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Aren't there any ideas?

Speaker 3 (03:37):
So there are fifty million irays in the United States.
Up until the recent decline, there was about thirty five
trillion dollars in retirement assets, of which about twelve trillion
is an individual retirement accounts. The ballpark is five years ago.
There are about one hundred and fifty thousand self directed

(03:58):
irays today. With the explosion of cryptocurrency, that's changed it
and skewed it. But if we exclude cryptocurrencies, it's estimated
somewhere maybe about five hundred thousand self directed iras invest
in alternative assets. Wow, So it's extremely small, one to
two percent of the iras out there.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
And I've heard from different folks.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Talk to me about how the self directed IRA companies
often will have at least you know, usually twenty five
to forty percent of their assets are management they're sitting
in zero percent accounts waiting for somebody to give them
a phone call, or sitting there waiting to.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Invest in a deal in a lot of cases.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
So from this perspective of the self directed IRA custodian,
that's really where they make their money. So, you know,
let's a quick backup difference between a self directed IRA
and a brokerage account IRA. They make their money on
transactions of product right or more recent today, assets under management.

(05:00):
The way a self directed iray custodian makes money is
by annual fees. We can touch on that a little
bit later, but the annual fees that they make is
about break even. Where they really make their money is
on the float. That cash sits in the account and
the numbers that you gave is absolutely correct, det oncorrect.
So there's a lot of cash that is just sitting there.

(05:23):
So most people think, okay, well, no problem, I'll just
send that cash back out to my schwab IRA. And again,
the self directed IRA custodians make it sticky and that
there's usually a substantial exit feed to send that money out.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
So you need to be aware of that. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Now, there's a variety of different funds. You know, what
are the annual contributions that somebody can invest into a
self directed IRY.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
Now for those that.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Are brand new out there, I mean there's different levels,
but can you talk about all of us in those
different complation levels?

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, So the similarities between a self directed IRA and
a brokerage IRA. Don't want to get too technical, so
forgive me, but it falls under IRS Publication five ninety
and that's what the IRS allows you to do in
terms of contributions, required minimum distributions, et cetera. So the
technical operating parts of that, and so contributions for twenty

(06:14):
twenty two six thousand dollars a year. If you're fifty
or over it's seven thousand.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Dollars a year.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
And that one of the things hopefully also we'll get
to is some of the changes with the Secure Act
for ages sixty to sixty three, they're going to allow
about a ten thousand dollars catchup provision.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Very nice, pretty nice.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
And then of course i've got ESA's educational for two
thousand dollars in put away, and then you've got what
different levels for sep I ras and the solo waring
k's and then also you can self direct even your
health savings account too correct.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yeah, that's unfortunately a little known. So there really is
an education fact. Most people don't realize that if you
are self employed you can do a solo four h
one k or a simple or set, which is it's
a type of a pension if you will for it
self employed people. And yeah, absolutely, you can take a
health savings account and you can invest in notes and

(07:09):
make returns consistently higher and hopefully with less risk than
the market.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
You can to invest in notes in real estate. You
can lend money on that stuff out those investors. There's
a lot of great alternative. It must be part of
a syndication, you know, invest apartments, there's all variety of
different things. It's just that people don't don't know what
they don't know, right, James, And you.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
Know the point that I make being an ex Merrill
insure to all of your members and your followers, if
they know notes better than they know the stock market,
they shouldn't be investing in notes.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Invest in what you know. I think it was the
best advice I've ever been given money. I couldn't just
there invest in what you know. If you don't know
it if you want to get to know it. Great,
get to know it. If you don't know, I mean
those people they don't take the opportunity, you know, it
says why they end up investing at the peak, you know,
and then when they're upset, because then a lot of
times as there's a downfall after the peak, you got

(08:09):
to know it and know when to act and when
to pick.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
You know, when the market conditions work best for a
lot of cases, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
So I'll give you an anecdotal proof of that, right,
And one of the strategies, most successful strategies on Wall
Street that the institutional traders use. This is really interesting
to think about this. It's called the odds loot theory.
So most brokerage firms, high networth investors, institutions invest in
what's called even lots one hundred chairs, one thousand shares,

(08:36):
ten thousand shares. Right, odd lots are the little guy
that will buy seven shares of Amazon or fourteen shares
of eBay and so on. What's called the level two trading.
You can actually see who's lining up on the bid
and the ask. And so if you see odd lots,

(08:57):
if you do the exact oppice of what the odd
lot is doing, meaning a I e. The little guy.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
That is one of the.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Most fantastic successful strategies on Wall Street. Just do the opposite.
To your point, they typically buy it on the very
high in the peak, and you sell it the very
low in the trust. The average investor in stocks makes
about two percent a year return.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Wow, that is a nugget there for everybody. The odd
lots do opposite of the odd lots. And you'll probably come.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
That I've never heard of that that is. That's that's
a big nugget there everybody. Now you've you've taken your
passion for it. You've done some amazing things with IRA
Exchange too, besides doing the normal stuff. Because you shared
a little bit about me some of the things that
you've done. You want to talk bragg on yourself a
little bit here, James. All right, So I was working
with the.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Self directed IRA custodian and I had a gentleman come
to me. Turned out to be a good friend and
colleague was one of the pioneers of funding it. And
crowdfunding is simply taking advantage of the new regulations that
the government created out of the Jobs Act. So the
everyday investor can invest into alternative assets. And so an

(10:14):
investor came to me and said, well, I'd like to
invest in this crowdfunding platform. So I said, well, this
is really exciting, and so I opened the account, we transferred,
got it funded, and then we went to make the
actual purchase and the custodian said, oh no, no, no, no, no,
that that crowdfunding stuff.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
That really that's all illegal.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
You can't do that, so he said, So I got
back to the customer and he said, yes, I know
several other custodians said the same thing. He said, you know,
you really should come down to the first crowdfunding conference
in New York back in twenty twelve. And I went
down there and the light bulb went off. And this
was at the time there were some other new real
estate companies that were out there using regulation A plus

(10:57):
to crowd fund and sort right, and I said, my god,
this is this is the greatest thing. And I went
up to the speaker and I said, did you know
you can use individual retirement accounts to invest in this?
And that kind of became a nine ten year journey
to pioneer the use of retirement assets into these new

(11:18):
alternative asset classes. So the group that started it was
a group association. We got invited to the White House
for the Champions of Change. It was really pretty neat,
pretty cool. Had the opportunity to speak at most of
the major conferences over the years, have three books published,
publishing a new one that's going to kind of consolidate

(11:40):
the other three and bring some new updates about the
industry about self directed irase, new things happening with iras
under the Secure Act. So it's been an interesting journey,
but it is a journey that's far from complete. From
this sense of being able to make this an easy
and smooth process to transact just like you can again

(12:04):
with publicly treated securities. Still a little bit of work
and friction in using a self directed irate.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Right, and that's uh, you know, making sure the PaperWorks
filled out and make it honestly.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Sometimes it's just having the uh.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I won't name any names here, but some of the
custodians not to screw stuff up.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
You know, we took about equity bust, I mean sorry,
equity trust.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
A lot of cases stuff there, killing deals because things
drag on. They don't understand the transaction. They want stuff.
They want you to commit fraud before actually sending. You know,
I gotta have a signed document for all fund. Well,
I can't give you a signed document till we till
you fund, you know what I mean. And so we've
seen a lot of that cases and and yeah, it's
frustrating a lot of cases in some of these different custudies.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
And of course people turn over and stuff like that too, but.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Still it shouldn't be as difficult a process and get
a lot of stuff done.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Well.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
What's interesting about the industry is that almost all of
the estonians are using one accounting and administrative platform that's
still running off legacy systems. So you'll hear a couple
of custodians out there saying, well, you know, we utilize
an API, and that's true, but that's used with this
provider of accounting and administration that's actually provided by Salesforce

(13:19):
dot com, the largest provider of small business APIs right,
So in the three steps of opening the account, funding
the account, and then transacting or directing the purchase of
that asset, they have the first part automated, so you
can open the account kind of easy. I mean, when
they first got into it, what they would say is

(13:42):
come online, fill in all your information online and then
print it out. In fact, it this is not an
online process, right, So they've gotten a little bit better.
So today, yes, if they're an account can be generated
within minutes sometimes, but the second step of funding the

(14:05):
account still can be arcane. It's still driven by the
investor themselves. So if an investor doesn't know that, or
if the investor sends the transfer request to their local
broker in Ohio and the broker in Ohio looks at
that and says, oh my god, there's one hundred thousand
dollars going out the door, he puts it at the

(14:26):
bottom of the pile, and maybe sixty days later, after
making the additional essence of their management, it might then
make its way to the actual department headquarters of handling
transfer paperwork. So it's just that lack of information that
people have and sometimes to your point, the newer people
in the turnover at the custodian just might not be aware.

(14:49):
So the industry is still looking for that solution to
automate it, and it's getting close and it's getting better,
but it really comes from you know, it's interesting this
industry started as what we'll call it B two C.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
So it was really kind of one offs.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
So you go to notecamp and somebody goes, oh, this
is fantastic, I want to invest, and then they say,
my goodness, you know you can invest using your IRA.
So the industry for forty years was really just kind
of one off investments and there was no need to
change it. The crowdfunding platforms that started to have uniformity

(15:27):
in asset classes, there wasn't quite the need or the
demand or the scale yet to invest into the technology
to automate it the way that the e trades and
the Scott Trades and the Robinhoods have done over the years.
So we're just at that tipping point where scale will
have the drive requirements coming from the investors and it'll

(15:49):
tip and I think within the next twelve months hopefully
we'll start to see some solutions.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, it could be nice. Let's see here we got
a couple of questions.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Is Carol asked a question if you if I use
a self directed di I rate of invest in crowdfunding,
is there a limit on the amounts allowed to invest?
There is if it's an outside of a retirement account.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
So the there's kind.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
Of two questions there. One might be around being an accredited.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Investor, all right.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
So some of these crowdfunding platforms, if they're using what's
called a regulation D all right, that means that it
is restricted or limited to accredited investors. Again, without getting
too much and the weeds, you gotta be worth a
million dollars, You got to have two hundred to three
hundred income, either yourself or the spouse, right and so,

(16:46):
and the minimums are usually one hundred thousand dollars, sometimes
they'll go as low as fifty maybe twenty five thousand
in Irregulation D. In Irregulation CF known as crowdfunding or
Regulation eight plus, that has opened up to unaccredited investors.
So again you can invest any amount in your IRA

(17:06):
as long as the money is there. And again, the
money in your IRA comes from two sources, either rolling
over from another IRA or four to one K or
a annual contribution which is limited to six or seven
thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Makes sense there because there's also.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
There's also is it right that you can't invest more
if you're non accredit more than ten percent or something
of your income as well?

Speaker 3 (17:33):
That's that's always being reviewed and changed by the SEC.
That may change with the Secure Act, but it's ten
percent or max of five thousand dollars, and in some
cases there was a limit of twenty two hundred dollars.
I think that was under an A plus not CP.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
Right right, we're not gonna get it.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
We're all getting the security to change emissions and all
that stuff. And so don't start asking questions about that, everybody.
That's not what we're here for today. You've got specific
deals and blade's that I have a horizon tryst and
they move my money through. That's great. We're not talking
about once the money is in there. In a lot
of times, I'll give you a great example. We know
most of the major banks, Wells Fargo Bank and the
Good Chase. If you're gonna do a transferring conn like that,

(18:15):
they're not gonna wire. They send a check. We've seen
this happen a lot of times because it slows things
down and it takes six weeks to get the money
out in a check and then deposited. And why because
they can hold a lot money for another six weeks
and make some more fees on interest and stuff like that.
So if they slow stuff down, it's it's it's difficult
these days. I'll tell you that in some in times.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
So here's another little nugget for you. There's two ways
you can move money from your brokerage IRA to a
self directed at IRA custodian. There's a direct transfer which
is known as a trustee to trustee and there's an
indirect rollover. Please you only only only want to do
a trustee to trustee. So on the self directed IAR

(18:58):
and custodian fees, some of them have tons and tons
of fees and forms to print out. You always want
to check the box trustee to trustee meaning from the
trust company Robin Hood Fidelity E trade to the new
self directed diary custodian. And what you have to do
is make sure you have self directed IRA Custodian ABC

(19:22):
FBO for the benefit of Jim Jones' account number IRA
one two three for five, So it's going directly to that.
And for the first time again, please cash only for
the investment you're going to bring. You don't want to
start bringing over mutual funds and publicly traded securities because
a lot of custodians can't handle publicly traded securities and

(19:45):
that will put the jam in the whole process, and
again that can get lost. So trustee to trustee, if
you do an indirect rollover there to your point, you're
going to receive a check from that custodian and the
clock starts ticking as soon as it gets mailed, and
you have sixty days to get that rolled over, and
if you don't, that's considered a distribution fully taxed. It

(20:09):
all comes out of your IRA. And even when they
do the rollover, they're going to assume that you're going
to keep the money, so they withhold up to twenty percent.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Tax that you have to make up. So yeah, trusting,
trusting directly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
I remembering being a banker at JP Morgan Chase and
there's always that number.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
I always have to ask people, are you taking this to.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
The account now because you've got sixty days otherwise you're
going to be penalized and you don't want to do that.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Definitely want to face that penalty on stuff like that
for you.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Now, you know there's so many different companies out there.
What are some things people should look at when they're
evaluating a custodian? In your mind, what makes up the
things that questions people need to ask.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Well, if I was going to take the advice for
my thirteen year old daughter, go online, google the company.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
And look at reviews. I mean, that is just.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
That's the best advice you could get. Honestly, look at
the reviews through Google and Yelp, and it's amazing. There
are some really big names of very large self directed
IRA custodians, and there are just some horror stories of
things that can happen, and I read through those all

(21:28):
the time, and there are a lot of situations where
the IRA holder just wasn't aware of the process and
there's some liability on their end as well. But Number one,
take a look at the reviews. Number two, you want
to take a look at the size of the company,
how long they've been in business, what kind of Better

(21:51):
Business Bureau rating that they have, another source to take
a look at. I would definitely talk to attorney these
CPAs if you're in notes in the real estate space,
attorneys that do that and ask for references and referrals,
and then take a look at their website and take
a look at their fees. There are still a few

(22:15):
custodians that require you to do a checkbook IRA, which
we can talk about in the minute what that is
and how that works and why and so that is
a built and added expense of anywhere from two thousand
dollars to five thousand dollars for them to incorporate an
LLC to use a checkbook.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Others won't allow it at all.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
They're the other extreme, right, they'll no, we do not
use or allow a checkbook IRA. There are others that
have fees for opening the account. Most firms today have
kind of waived that, but there are still out there,
some fifty to one hundred dollars to open the account.
Take a look at the annual fees you can really
get now here. You can be two hundred and ninety

(22:58):
five dollars per asset per year plus AUM with assets
under management or the size of the value of the account. Also,
take a look at transaction fees. Some have waived them,
some are twenty five, some are still one hundred and
twenty five. If it's real estate related, just because there's
so much demand in the real estate world, which is

(23:19):
about seventy percent of the assets in self directed diarias,
they can jack it up to five hundred dollars transaction
for a real estate related asset.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
And then lastly, what are the fees to move cash out?

Speaker 3 (23:31):
Almost everybody is going to charge you some kind of
fee for that cash we talked about the very first
thing that's just sitting there. Some fifty dollars, some as
one hundred dollars, some as one thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
So it's important though what your fees are and what
it's going to cost you.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
And the thing too is knowing you're the sense of
assets under management doesn't necessarily mean cash in the account
to in a lot of cases because like with when
when we were bor we're always getting the anal knows how.
You've got to provide a value of the asset UH
to your i RA investors. So even if you if
you if it's worth a hundred, but you only paid fifty,
but down you paid fifty, Because if you pay put

(24:08):
down one hundred, you're gonna be taxed. Your fees are
gonna be off the one hundred, even though that value
is not maybe not there yet, right yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
The other probably final point vote two points quickly one
is again get a sense for can you do a
lot of these things online? Is there a client portal
that you can go see online your assets. Are they
using and embracing some kind of basic technology if it's
still the old you know facxic exren as fast as

(24:36):
you can. And there was one other point about that.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
I'll come back to him. It's okay about about check.
Got it came in back.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
So there's there's there's been a movement where state banking
UH charters are now requiring third party administrators to list
the name of their custodian that does.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Their their back office, so real quickly.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
A a an actual custodian for a self directed IRA
company is the entity that is registered and approved by
state banking charter UH and they are audited by the
state banking associations, they're reviewed by the i r s.

(25:32):
Even though they are non fiduciary, they do have ultimate
responsibility for investors cash and properly custodying those assets. A
third party administrator in Lame's terms, it's pretty much a wholesaler.
They're upfront, They're they're going to bring in investors, they're
going to open the account, they're going to do a
little bit of a rev share with the custodian. But

(25:55):
where the custodian is audited by the actual state Banking Commission.
The third party administrators are only audited by the actual
custodian who's doing their back office work. So there's again
without implying anything negative or that third party administrators would
do anything wrong. It's just an extra level there of

(26:19):
due diligence by the state.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
So always do you am all?

Speaker 1 (26:23):
That makes a lot of sense there for you now, James,
you talked to me. We were talking about something the
other day about how you guys are doing something creative
with folks who or maybe is most people.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
They got money in account they're not making anything. You
want to talk a little bou kind of what you
guys are doing.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, so we're trying to create a cash alternative and
we have to be careful because the custodian, as we
were just talking about, is what's called a non fiduciary
trust company, so they can't get behind an asset and

(27:00):
that's been done over the years, and then if and
when that asset goes south, the self directed iory custodian
gets dragged into the lawsuit they can be closed the
irs CAS's assets.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yikes.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
So it has to remain independent. There are some moves
by some of the custodians to actually partner with or
become a broker dealer, and so that kind of changes things.
But one of the companies that we're working with that
is a it's a cash alternative, is Worthy Bonds and

(27:32):
they basically will pay five percent on idle cash. So
really interesting concept. And they're similar to an acorn where
they'll you can use a card and you can do
round ups. That's associated. So if you purchase something for
ten dollars and ten cents you charged eleven.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Dollars, that ninety cents gets.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Rounded up into a savings account, of which they pay
five percent. But the other part of that is you
can buy these bonds within your self directed iry and
earn five percent on idle cash, which beats the heck
out of half a percent or three quarters of a
percent or being charged five hundred dollars to send out
one hundred dollars.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
That makes no sense, right, No, it doesn't make and
we see it happen all the time, all the time,
all the time. Exactly. We had folks that reach out,
we're gonna do one hundred dollars option.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
You know what they're gonna charge me Firebucks of those
hundred dollars, I'm like, yeah, I guess you're with the wrong.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry there, Now.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Let's let's talk because then in another space, people are
using their money to buy how can people use their
Can can people get a loan or can they financial leverage?

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Debt and a self directed diary is always a good
question to ask.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, so this this is is certainly a big question,
one of the most misunderstood. The short answer is, yeah,
you can get a loan, you can finance, you can
use debt in a self directed IRA. Again, the biggest
thing that you have to remember is the IRA really

(29:13):
is governed by the I R S. We are the beneficiary,
but we can't have a benefit directly or indirectly. So
we have it's you know, think of it as a
you know, a distance long distance, right, But so you

(29:36):
can get debt, debt or leverage, but it is like
a commercial real estate loan. It's based on the asset
itself that's evaluated, right, how much money you're putting down.
You personally cannot be tied to a credit decision by
a mortgage company. That would be a prohibited transaction. So

(29:58):
you can't have any personal credit or personal skin in
the game or put money into that that's.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Not considered IRA money. So there are.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
First American Savings Bank is one of the largest. Before
two thousand and nine, they're probably one hundred companies that
did that. Today there are three to five that will
finance debt, but again it's tied directly to the actual asset,
can have no connection to the individual IRA holder. Typically

(30:31):
you can finance up to fifty percent. In some cases
they'll go to sixty. Typically the interest rates are in
the six percent range. That also as other mortgage products
have gone up a little bit in the sixty seven
percent range. But then there's this nasty thing called you
bit right, and so you can be taxed. And so

(30:52):
the irs.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Always gets their money always? Did I say? Always?

Speaker 3 (30:58):
They always get their money? And so I'll give you
kind of a back of the nap and real quick example.
So let's say you find a property for one hundred
thousand dollars and you have fifty thousand in your self
directed IRA. You're able to get a fifty thousand dollars
loan on the rest.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Of the property.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Now you purchase that for one hundred thousand dollars Let's
say that property doubles, it goes to two hundred thousand dollars,
and you decide to take the profit and sell it. Right,
So in this case, we made one hundred thousand dollar profit,
of which originally fifty percent was financed. So that's fifty

(31:40):
thousand out of the one hundred thousand profit that's subject
to a trust tax of thirty percent. So thirty percent
times fifty thousand dollars, you owe Uncle Sam fifteen thousand
dollars in your self directed IRA if you bought a
property for one hundred thousand and you.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Financed half mm hmmm. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
And it's also you don't want to run a business
through your IRA as well too, because you can run
into UB.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
But if you're running a business to it.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Too, right, A lot of folks deal with if there
are a professional wholesalers using their you know IR on
a regular regularly basis to transact business, you can also
run a you bit there too, right.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
So that's that's actually the genesis of how this came about.
Somebody was running a pasta company many many years ago
out of their IRA, and so again the I R
S is brilliant, and they throw a blanket over everything.
They say, whatever you can't do directly, you can't do indirectly. Well,

(32:44):
guess what that just covered everything?

Speaker 2 (32:46):
That covered everything.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
So that's genaric terminology there, right.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
So in that case you would have personal benefits. So
in the case where you're running a business and you're
going to use like a checkbook IRA, you cannot pay
yourself any kind of management fee. You can be the
manager and you can use intellectual property, you can manage

(33:14):
the dealings of the IRA, you just can't be paid for, right,
And that's there's a whole other subject that I won't
get into, but it's called a rob which is where
you're rolling over a four to one K into what's
called a C corporation. That C corporation buys shares in

(33:34):
the IRA, and then people can start to run a
business out of.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
A rollover four to oh one K.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
But there are all kinds of requirements and you can't
start paying yourself a salary out of the money of
the four O one K. You can only pay yourself
out of the proceeds and the profits from that. And
then that's a whole other subject for another day. But
essentially to your point, yes, you can't pay yourself as
a business.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
And IR Carol has a question on that last example
you gave and say, use financing fifty k and using
fifty k to buy that. If you just use cash
and then sold it for two hundred k, you wouldn't
pay me. You bit on that that point, because it's
all it's all investment income without the financing side.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Absolutely correct.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yes, yes, and so there's also again without getting too
much into the weeds, but again this is where so
many people get nailed with prohibited transactions. I'll touch on
that lately if that's okay, Yeah, please do That was
gonna be the next question.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
So there there's a segue there into getting direct benefit
and indirect benefit out of that. So indirect benefit out
of an asset purchased in a self directed IR. A
great example is art, right, So if you buy a
Picasso and you hang it on your wall in the home,

(34:57):
the IR S says, that's a prohibited transaction here, getting
personal benefit and enjoyment out of an asset held by RIrA.
If you buy a watch, if you buy certain collectible clients,
if you buy wine and then drink it, prohibited transaction, right,

(35:18):
So you can't have any kind of benefit out of
that asset that is owned by that as well, there's
prohibited people. Prohibited people are right in your family line
up and down, So that includes a spouse, your children,
your grandchildren, and then going up the other side of
the tree lineal is parents and grandparents. So any of

(35:41):
those people you cannot do business with or you cannot
have any direct benefit or indirect benefit either from them
or them from you. So a couple examples. Your son
goes off to Boston University and you, oh, my my god,
I can't believe how expensive real estate is in Boston,

(36:04):
and so you go out and you buy a condominium
as investment in your self directedt ira. Well, you can't
let your son stay in that apartment, even if he
pays rent. On the other hand, you can't get.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
His four buddies.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
To pay rent. And then wink wink, he also has
a room there that would be an indirect benefit.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
All right.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Can't buy a condominium for your parents in Florida, let
them use it. And you certainly can't buy a condominium
in Florida on the beach and you go down and
use it two weeks out of the year. And so
when I'm doing these conferences, right, I always get somebody
and they always have the same example, and it always.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Involves July fourth and beer.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
I don't know why, but somebody says, Jim, look realistically, okay,
I got a condominium. It's too family, It's July fourth weekend.
I'm gonna go over there and I'm going to paint
the two back bedrooms and bring myself a six pack.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Who's ever gonna know?

Speaker 3 (37:10):
And the answer is statistically true, figure ninety nine percent
of prohibited transactions never get caught. I can almost promise
you the IRS will not know that he went over
there and painted to two back bedrooms at seven o'clock
at night and drank a six pack of beer.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Okay, But it.

Speaker 3 (37:29):
Goes the same following with what you do with your
taxes when you take deductions?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
All right?

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Can you take deductions? Absolutely? And real estate is one
of the best asset classes to do that. The IRS
says you're allowed to take deductions.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
That's your.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Obligation is to take deductions and not pay more than
you have to. But what you have to pay, you
must pay. And so the trick is, or the thing is,
the issue is if you get caught. If you get audited,
the penalties are severe. If they caught you within one
year and you can prove that you were just dumb,

(38:08):
well then you're going to pay a full taxable event
on that. If they prove that you did this consistently
for more than one year and you really knew what
you were doing, in most cases, they'll just seize your
entire IRA gone poof. So you know, it's the same
questions as your own ethics and values. Hey, do I

(38:30):
want to cheat on my taxes and hopefully I don't
get caught, same issues if I if I do a
prohibited transaction myself directed IRA, and I don't get good
for me. Okay, But you know the issues we see
all the time. There are a couple of custodians that
have issued debit cards to use, which is brilliant in
a way, right, So let's think about it. If you

(38:50):
get a call at you know, eight o'clock in the
morning and the toilet's leaking and you got to get
over there, and the plumber comes and you're standing in
a dry way and he says, I want two hundred dollars, Well,
you can't take the two hundred dollars out of your
wallet and use your own money prohibited transaction. But on
the other hand, realistically, you can't call the custodian and

(39:14):
have them hot wire over two hundred dollars. You know
that's going to take three weeks for the custodian to
do that, right. So some people have issued and offer
a debit card, or you can have a debit card if.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
You open up a checkbook, I or A.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
The promise is the problem is is that that's so tempting.
People will say, well, look, you know, I'm going to Florida,
I'm taking look at this property. I'll buy my own
plane tickets, but I'll buy my wife a nice dinner
out with a debit card from them. And again, if
you get audited and you get caught, so of the consequences,

(39:51):
that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
You've got to make sure you're not dipping that forbidden.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Fruit and keep records. Yeah, exactly, you have to keep better, Okay.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Steven asked a question if you put IRA money into
a syndication for say a hotel purchase, and you know
seven percent of the hotel that borrows money and you
get a cash distribution from the hotel yearly prophece, do
you owe you bit on the yearly income because.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
It should go back into it.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Also, for several years the hotel loan is refinanced, is
there you bit on the new loan or when the
hotel is sold?

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Good questions propacidication.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
No, because really, thankfully, this this is this is great
in in those examples of syndication, real estate is excluded
from that. So if it's other operating companies, yes, If
it's real estate, no, there are the rules off. If

(40:46):
there's more than twenty five percent in an operating company
that's retirement dollars, then there is a consequence of having
that real estate is an excluded class. The other or
potential question that might have come from that, gentleman, is
the percent of ownership. And this is where you got

(41:07):
to be really careful. It's currently if you own less
than fifty percent, you're not going to have problems of
using self directed irate to invest into that entity, into
that fund, into that syndication. What was proposed in January
of this year in the Secures Act was that if

(41:29):
you owned any piece of that you would not be allowed.
Thankfully that didn't pass. It got kicked out there's rumors
that that's going to be readdressed. Likely in those situations,
those kind of policies are grandfathered. But just be really careful.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
If you have.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Equity in some kind of entity or fund and own
fifty percent center close to it, you have to really
be careful and always, as always, please check you know,
with a with a with a tax attorney.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, I mean, that's it's you definitely need to be
talking with a turn about that. Let me ask you
a questions. So we've got one of the things we add.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
People here, James, and we asked a lot of folks
to fill out a little bit of survey about what
do they have whether you're a big focus on and
roughly it's good to see roughly forty percent of those
that say they have a self directed diary of some sort.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
So wonderful, which is really good. What would you say
to the other sixty percent of that don't. That's that's
where the money is, right. So a couple of things.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
One is asset allocation. One of the first things we
talked about right back in my naive days where I
thought diversification was I got domestic stocks, I got international stocks. No,
that's not diversification. Diversification is asset classes like real estate.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
So you know, again, if.

Speaker 3 (43:02):
We go back to some of the original numbers, one
and a half two percent of the population has self
directed irase, So ninety eight percent of the people are.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Invested in publicly traded securities.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
That is awful over and redundant diversification into one asset
class of publicly traded securities. So for true diversification, you
really want to be in other asset classes like notes
and like real estate. But the other thing is tax efficiency. Right,
So as the millennial generation comes up, just like any generations,

(43:36):
as they're coming up, who cares about retirement?

Speaker 2 (43:40):
Right?

Speaker 3 (43:41):
I mean when I was in my twenties and thirties, right,
we're going to live forever. Who thought of retirement planning?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Now that's not cool.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
But what's really interesting is that the millennial generation invests
and they trade, and they trade like crazy. They trade memes, stocks,
they trade cryptocurrencies, and so of a sudden, in the
last two years they got hit by these huge tax bills,
holy smokes, and in some cases if their portfolio and

(44:08):
crypto went down, they owed more in taxes than they.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
Had to pay for.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
So what's really cool today and what's in is tax efficiency.
It's been around forever, right. I can't encourage people enough
to go online Google. A compound savings calculator, bankrate dot
com is one that I use all the time.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
And play with it.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
Just play with it, play with the initial amount that
you're going to put in, the rate or percent that
that's going to compound, and make sure you check the
box that it's tax deferred, that it's in a retirement account.
And it'll blow your mind. You do that for fifteen
twenty thirty years in a tax efficient manner, you don't
have to talk about retirement planning. You don't have to
think about retirement planning because you will have incredible sums

(44:57):
put aside in a tax efficient vehicle. So you know,
the last point I'll make on that is when I'm
presenting to a crowdfunding platform, why they should consider IRA
or retirement money. That's where the money is at any
given time. There's one trillion dollars in cash, checking account,

(45:18):
savings account, taxable workorage account. There's thirty five times that
in retirement money. Right, So if you think about personally,
if a ten thousand investment came along where you saw
the opportunity to invest in notes and at ten thousand dollars,
do you have it in your checking account where you're
paying your mortgage and your car bill and utilities. Right,

(45:40):
most of the time, it's going to be in your
retirement account. Most people just didn't know that they can
access to do that. So that's where the money is,
and that's where your tax efficiency is. If you have
a traditional IRA and you make a six thousand contribution,
you get a six thousand dollars tax deduction, which is great,

(46:01):
and you get to defer it. Now it used to
be seventy and a half. That just changed. Now you
can defer taxes without taking requirement minimum distributions to your
seventy two.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
But if you use a wroth IRA and.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
You contribute six thousand, you don't get to six thousand
dollars tax deduction. But guess what, at the end, you
never ever pay taxes on that money. So it's the
concept of taxing the seed versus taxing the harvest. Right,
we all know the stories out there of you know,
these investors that have grown their roth iras from two

(46:42):
thousand dollars right to five billion dollars well, it's probably
not going to happen to us because those investors happened
to be private equin investors that had opportunities to get
into some tremendous stocks. But we still have the same
opportunity to grow and not pay taxes if these are wrong.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, that's the thing is is buying use a great example.
I mean, you start a Wrath IRA for six thousand bucks.
It's five hundred dollars a month. You know, it's one
hundred and fifty dollars a week if you want to
put it in there. Putting a little bit in is
contributions is so valuable because you know, we see little
small valued notes there and most of the time the
smaller value notes do really well because they're smaller value.

(47:26):
You still get a bigger discount and buying it in
your IRA and have that money come in and it's
tax free growth and then at six grande turns into
ten grand or twelve grand and every year you do it,
that tax re growth is so valuable if you'll just
start putting a little bit away on a you know,
six thousand dollars may not have an extra six thousand dollars, well,
but I bet you have five hundred dollars when you
did your tax returns.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Let's start with something versus nothing, right, James.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
And that's where you go back to that compound calculator example.
It's not whether you make six percent or seven percent return.
It's not if you you know your your fees are
or half a point or five eighths of the point.
It's the time in the market that compounds.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Right. And everybody knows the example.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Right, if you put a penny in every day, you know,
for thirty days, and that compounded, right, that equates to
some crazy like one point something to million dollars. It's
the time that money compounds in a tax deferred or
tax free matter.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yes, I mean, so now let's talk about it. Somebody
asked me a question, what about a backdoor ir? Can
you convert a wroth to traditional or traditional to a wroth?

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Yeah? So the great question.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
And again this is another thing to do and take
advantage of now, because this was one of the other things,
one of the other items in the Secure Act where
they were taking it away. Thankfully that got kicked out,
so we can still do backdoor roth ira. So you
can contribute in a traditional IRA if I don't have

(49:04):
the exact number. It's in that ballpark range. If if
you're single and make ninety something on thousand dollars, you
can't get the tax deduction for a traditional ira. If
you're married, it's in one hundred and seventy two hundred
and eighty thousand range in twenty twenty two, right, but

(49:26):
you can still contribute, you just don't get the tax deduction.
So if you and your spouse ball contribute, you can
contribute twelve thousand dollars, or if you're fifteen over you
contribute fourteen thousand dollars. You don't get to tax deduction,
but you got the money in the traditional ira, and
now you can convert that traditional ira to a roth ira.

(49:48):
You got to pay taxes, but still it's the concept
of taxing the seed versus taxing the harvest. I've read
articles by financial planners that says it still makes sense
to convert to a roth even if you're eighty years old,
because of the way that it inherits and then they
have used to be lifetime. Now you have ten years

(50:11):
to distribute that the compounding effect almost always points to
a roth being the way to go. So you can
convert to a roth IRA even if you don't qualify
for the deduction, and again, do it now if you can.
And again remember there's tax consequences, so always always speak

(50:33):
to your accountants, speak to your tax attorney. And it's
never all or nothing. So let's say, if you know
you wanted to con if you have one hundred thousand
dollars portfolio, you don't have to convert the whole hundred.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
You can convert ten people do it and say, hey.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
If I have a mediocre year or a bad year
next year in terms of income and I'm not going
to pay a lot of taxes, that's a great time
to convert from a traditional to a WROTH.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
If you have a gang brust year and you a
whole bunch of taxes, you probably don't want to do.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
A big whopping tax or excuse me, roth conversion because
that could kick you up into an even higher tax category.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Right, But it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
I mean, you can roll over a small amount, absolutely,
and dude, just to get it going in rock and roll,
and that's that's one of the things, is getting something going. Now,
there's a I don't know what the rule is, but
if you've had an was it a roth iray for
five years or what's there's a I'm trying to draw
a planket here.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
So there was the point that I should have included
earlier when I said with a roth you never pay taxes.
That's true, but you have to hold that asset for
five years. So again, you buy buy a note for
ten thousand dollars and it doubles to twenty thousand dollars.

(51:52):
If you hold that note for five years, or don't
sell it right for five years, then you you've got
twenty thousand dollars in year wroth, which you'll never pay taxes.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
However, if you sell.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
That note in your IRA before five years, then you will.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Pay the taxes.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
So the principle the contributions you put into a wroth
are never taxable, and you can take them out the
next day. If you put in five thousand, you can
take out five thousand a year from now. You'll never
pay taxes on that. So contribution amounts never taxed. The
profits are gains. You have to hold five years and
then you're good.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
There you go. That's exactly what I'm talking about there.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Question here from somebody to me is if my income
drops due to layoff or unemployment.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
That I'm sorry, So I asked another question here may.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Sorry here, if my income drops due to lay off
or unemployment, that would be the best time to convert
from traditional irate or roth ir.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, you're tax exactly. Just make sure you can pay
the taxes right exact, Yeah, exactly, you can pay the
tax on that.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
And David says, well, I've read that you just have
to have the row account for five years, not that
the assets inside had to be held for five years.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
No, it's it's the time of the asset that is
held that's purchase. Yep, good stuff there.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
Now you're also an active investor to James, Let's talk
a little bit what you're investing in. I mean, because
you aren't just a just a custody and you're a
guy who's rolling up and looking at deals and making
things happen.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
So this is a little separate from the IRA.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
But let's talk about some of the things that you're
investing in, joining and doing some stuff with.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah. So I have right now about ten percent.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Of my portfolio in publicly created securities in my fidelity.
And again, I won't get too much into weeds over there,
But with publicly traded securities, you always have to have stops.
So in other words, you don't ever want to take

(54:00):
the ride down, right. It's the number one game of
publicly created securities is preservation because when it's another conversation
for another time, but the time that it takes to
make up money that you lost is always a higher percentage, right,

(54:21):
So if you lost fifty percent, it takes seventy five
percent to make up for that.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
So I always have stops.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
So this past February in March, I stopped out of
almost all of my stocks and mutual funds automatic because
I set thresholds. If it trades below that bang, they
get sold. So typically I have twenty twenty five percent.
Now it's down to ten percent because those stops sold
me out of that. So I've been in real estate

(54:47):
as an investor in individual properties, single family, multi family
twenty five thirty years, but really in the last seven
years almost all of my portfolio is in alternative assets
through crowdfunding categories, which include notes and so I want
to be talking to you after this call, tax lean certificates,

(55:12):
fantastic strategies. Multi family real estate is probably my largest holdings,
and that's a great time to be investing because of
five million shortage in apartments right now, So that's a
great asset class. I'm invested in consumer debt, although Prosper
and lending clubs platforms that were originally built for the

(55:33):
retail investor and have since gone really the institutional route unfortunately.
But to be able to be the bank and to
be able to invest in the platform where you can
pre select twenty two categories of investor credit worthiness, so
you literally say, okay, I want to make six percent,
I want to make ten percent. I can even make

(55:55):
twenty eight percent returns knowing that I'm probably gonna have
six or seven percent in write offs at least right
But just like the banks can build instructional ladder a portfolio,
there's a lot of what I'm invested now is small
business free finance, So you know you're investing in small
businesses that will need inventory financing, short term lines of credit,

(56:22):
and typically a lot of these platforms, if you look
at them closely, they're lending out money at one and
a half to two percent per month. So if you
do the math on that and annualize that, I mean
they're they're making twenty four percent, of which you know
you can get varying degrees and percentages of that, but

(56:44):
that's collateralized and backed by the assets with a sixty
percent liquidation value. So if that company, so what they
lent on was only sixty percent of what the company
was worth a short term, so your assets are backed,
it's secured. So small business refinance, consumer credit, real estate notes,

(57:10):
taxing seerts.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
I did a little bit with so far that will
allow you to invest in alumni student loans. Brilliant idea
based upon the affinity model. So let's say you know,
if you went to Boston University and you wanted to
refinance your student loan, Well that is refinanced by an

(57:37):
alumni of Boston University. There's an association there. Originally you
have to be from that college or university. Well, nobody's
gonna stiff an alumni, right, So there was less than
half percent in terms of delinquency or late's brilliant model,

(57:57):
Very brilliant, and that continue and still it's still too early.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
I think.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
In cryptocurrency, there are publicly traded securities, kind of like
the gold Rush back in the eighteen fifties, invest in
the picks and the acts, investing in the infrastructure of
blockchain technology absolutely all day. Investing in the actual cryptocurrency,
whether it's Bitcoin or ethereum. It's still days or early

(58:26):
people you know, put small money in for some kind
of diversification. But just like the Internet in two thousand,
most of those companies are gone that offer Internet access.
You know a lot of these companies, these coins are going.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
To be gone.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
So early days for that not dipping the toes in
the water yet.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Well, but the biggest thing about any type investment, it's
an investment. It doesn't mean a guarantee. You know, you
only want to probably put your money into stuff like that.
That Hey, if it's gone, it's gone.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
It's all right.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
You know, we learn, we play, we're playing. We're gambling
a little bit. Yeah, I just know what you're doing, right,
you know, not take your last five grand, Come on, baby.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
I got a couple of questions.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Carol was asking a minute ago about do you mean
factory and receivables and some of the things that you're
talking about in the business business.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Financing, Yes, yeah, let's see it.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
Tamiko asked a question, so if I convert my traditional
ira to roth ir, then is there a deadline date
in which I have to pay the taxes ODE? Is
it April fifteenth? Or can I work out a payment
plan to pay the taxes OD? Or can you delay
it to October fifty like most people do with a
lot of taxes?

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Give me.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
You can and again, please talk to your CPA. But
my understanding is you can have an extension, but taxes.
Taxes are due April fifteenth, So if you don't owe
any taxes, you can extend your filing to October. But

(01:00:07):
if you owe taxes and you extend to October, you're
going to pay penalties on what you would have should
have paid on April fifteenth. So taxes are always do
April fifteenth.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
That's why they say, if you think you're gonna have
something better to pay than versus, let and drag out
for another six months or further, which is good stuff.
What's the What's what's one thing about self regnires that
people do that just bug the shit out of James?
What's a pet peeve that you see people do? You're like,
what did you do that for? With your experience?

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Not know the asset class that they should have, and
so they get frustrated and then they turn around and
then they sell the asset. And then in many times,
especially if it's if it's a type of private equity

(01:01:05):
or a private debt structure, they will require a three
to five to ten year old for a purpose.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
In a lot of.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
These situations, let's say in multifamily, Well, if you know
you're investing into either a direct property or a fund
that has to go in and renovate the properties, get
all new rents, sign them, and it takes six, nine,
twelve months, sometimes two years to get cash flowing positively,

(01:01:38):
and they might not see anything in their account for
the first year, and they just think, I got ripped off.
I'm not seeing anything out of this, and they sell,
and they sell at a loss, and you know, if
there is a lock in period, then they're going to
take a real ding, not only on the interest that
they lost, but on the principle that they invested. So
it really is so important to pay an attorney a

(01:02:02):
thousand dollars whatever to or a business person that knows
that asset, that that asset class, and do your homework.
And it's not always possible but at the end of
the day, after you speak with that advisor, you should
probably be able to speak to the advisors, give them

(01:02:24):
back what they gave to you, and really understand what
they just explained to you. And you have to understand
that explanation.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Yeah, I think that's one of most It's understanding the
asset you said, understanding the asset class and the timing
of that asset class or that deal, what's going on
so there, Yeah, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
I mean my first real estate deal, don't be twenty
four year old kid, I had no idea what I
was getting into, and then that was what eighty eighty nine,
and then the market fell out. It's a perfect example,
you know, and I went backwards. I had no idea
of real estate transactions, the cost of fees, you know what,
what was involved with tenants and crazy tenants and I mean,

(01:03:02):
just a classic example.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
You got to start somewhere. You got to learn.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
But please, if you can get a great advisor, learn,
go to school, join organizations and memberships.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Best thing you can do. You surround yourself with like
my individuals, people are actually doing it. It's such a
huge thing. It's part of the reason we're here.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
To put people in place with new new thoughts and
new ideas and helping people take their businesses to the
next level out there, because you know, it all starts,
I mean little little steps have big I mean big
things always have small beginnings, you know what I mean.
And whether it's learning something new or like we were
working with VEL earlier, reaching out to investors.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
That'll be one question I answer.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Maybe answers to maybe what are some of the things
that when if somebody's reaching out to somebody who's got
a self direct at IRA fund or something like that,
or investors, what are some tips that you would recommend
for people to stand out things to do or not
to do when maybe reaching out and raising capital or
talk with IRMA investors see if they can their deal.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
The first thing, one of the first things I mentioned
again is two things that you really need to know.
One is IRS publication five nineties. So that's how much
can I put in my IRA? That's my contributions, right,
how much can I put in? Can I roll it over?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
What if I overfund my IRA? How do I make
that work? So the simple things of what an IRA
is and how it works, that's really important. But the
other big piece of that is what's called the IRS
Code forty nine seventy five, which is all about prohibited

(01:04:46):
transactions because a lot of people when they start out,
do business with people they know and family members, and
that's unfortunately with self directed irase, you can't do business
with family members. It's just natural that you know, you
have a couple brothers, or you know, your father thinks
he's doing the right thing and trying to bring you

(01:05:06):
into business and teach you and show you. You just
have to know the ins and outs of prohibited transactions.
And here's one interesting here's another nugget.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
All right, so.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
Your father can't do business with you with the self
direct that I rate after the fact, right, he can't
let you rent the property, but family members prohibited people.
Family members can come into a deal at this same

(01:05:43):
time if there's no prior interest or ownership. Again, one
hundred thousand dollars piece of property. Dad comes in with
fifty thousand, daughter comes in at twenty five thousand, son
comes in at twenty five thousand. At this same time,
you can do business with prohibited people, and that asset

(01:06:07):
has to be portioned out ownership by those exact percentages.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
So here's what you see.

Speaker 3 (01:06:15):
Often in that case, dad gets fifty percent of any
profits proceeds income, daughter gets twenty five, son gets twenty five.
What I've seen happen a lot, Dad takes five because
dad's a really good dad, and the kids get forty
five and.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Forty five prohibited transactions.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
So you can come together at the same time. Husband
and wife can come together at the same time, but
it's always at the proportionate ownership.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
That they come together with.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Well, that's the thing is, Yeah, I think you can
partner together so and so fun and you see that.
You'll see that a lot of the county record so
and so you use twenty percent, another ten percent, fifteen percent,
and that profits the profit is has got to go
back into it equally on the same amount there what
was invested with the stuff like that for it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
And you could you you can invest with your IRA
at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
You're gonna fund fifty percent cash and then your new
stity percent on your IRA to buy a property as well,
just got to go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Back in equally in the same same thing. Very impressive. Yeah,
we've done a few of these deals. Well, but that's
the thing is there's if you're buying notes, you got
to you know, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
If you're gonna buy a note, you need a copy
of the note, you need a copy of the value
of it. You've got to have all the assignments. You
gotta have the assignment made out to your IRA, and
that's gonna be labeled properly. And the same thing when
money coming back in, you can have your service service
and company put it direct back into your IRA. You
just just checking off boxes and making sure what you
can and cannot do and stick it to. It's very

(01:07:51):
very black and white. There's no gray when you're dealing
with the IRA, right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
Yeah, and certainly the custodian is there always going to
have dis claim AMers.

Speaker 2 (01:08:01):
They're always going to say that we cannot give advice, right, but.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
There there is, of course the CISP Certified IRA Services Professional.
It's an eight day excuse me, five day, eight hour
a day course over five days with a four hour exam.
It's it's not the series seven, but it's very comprehensive.

(01:08:27):
So when you're talking with the self directed IRA custodian,
that would be maybe to your earlier question. If the
representatives there have their CISP certified IRA Services Professional, and
they'll know and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
They can give you feedback.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
They can't give you the exact answer necessarily. Often if
it's kind of convoluted or twisted, it will often go
to compliance compliance for that self direct that iraic custodian.
They will come back with black and white and they
will say, yes, we can do this, no we cannot
do that in some cases where and I always, I

(01:09:05):
always say IRS code, it's not grey, it's black and white. Right,
either you can do it or you can't do it.
They're going to come after you where they're not right.
So there's not really.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
Really a whole lot of gray.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
And I can say this because I'm originally New Yorker,
and when I was just somehow with folks in New York,
New Jersey, d they came with every possible scenario of
how they can get around.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
The IRS code. I'm like, oh, you can't do that.
Joking aside, very creative people.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
But many times, if it really still seems gray, what
the IRA custodian will do very clever, very smart. They'll say,
sure enough, problem, get your attorney to write a letter
and cite the IRS code and that the attorney is
putting their license on the line and they're approving that
you'll do it, and we'll do it no wrong. And

(01:10:01):
I've never seen that investor come back with a letter
from their attorney, because no attorney is going to hang
their license out there. So if the custodian is saying
compliance says no, we want a letter from your attorney.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
I've seen people push it. I would really let it go.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
You don't need the aggravation. There's always another deal out
there that is a little bit clearer.

Speaker 1 (01:10:25):
And that's the thing is that you push it, you
potentially risk invading your whole account or losing it turns
out to be a prohibitive transaction that the IRIS says no,
that you can't do that. It's not good to play
with the Russian roulette a little loaded gun in some cases.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
Also, back when I was a dumb twenty four year
old kid, I met the I R S.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
And I never want to meet them again. That's true.
I've never met the SEC and I never want to
meet them.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
So closer I can name in the SEC, I was
out of wine tasting in one of the authored is
the SEC was a wine tasting tour so I spent
the whole day with an SEC advisor. I hope you
took notes. He's out of Miami. Let us like he's like,
I'm here on vacation. Never mind enjoy your.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
What let's get So let me ask a question.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
What what's the best way for folks to reach out
to now you're your website's going, you're tweaking the website
and some of the things there. You got the new
book coming out in a few months as you're consolidated.
What's the best way for our audience to connect with you?
And if they want to open it, are you able
to help open up myself direct IRA counts if they're.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
Interested, Absolutely so just reach out j Jones at i
RA exchange dot net.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
I typed that in the chat roll for everybody, So
thank you Jones at i RA exchange dot net. That'll
go to the email and stuff like that. And you've got,
like I said, you're you've got some you mentioned doing
some really cool things out there and the website when
you said the website will be about another week or
so before it's re edited or a little bit longer
than that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
Yeah, so we're one of the Again this comes out
of just being in this industry for ten years and
people say, gee, you know, I had a really great
experience investing into this asset class. What else can I
invest in? So we're looking at launching a registered investment
advisory that will offer different categories of asset classes to

(01:12:32):
become familiar with. So it's just like when you're talking
to your fidelity advisor or g you should be in
small cap, large gap technology, biotech, the US, domestic, international.
There's this huge gaping need for people.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
To learn about alternative asset classes, and you and I
are going to talk about that. Yes, we'll talk about
that definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
James asked question, can you talk about solo frowing case?

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Yeah, So that is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
A type of investment plan for the self employed. So
it's it's usually it's for typically a owner and a spouse.
You have the ability to fund it with the contributions.

(01:13:25):
I think they're in twenty twenty two, it's nineteen thousand
and then there's a catchup provision to that. There's also
another entity in the solo for one key where it
acts like a set a self employment plan, so you
can take a portion of your income, your net adjusted income.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
That gets deducted off your taxes and you can make
a contribution.

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
I believe for twenty twenty two you can contribute up
to fifty seven thousand dollars. So that is holy smokes, right,
Iras are great putting six or seven, but a solo
for one k to you know, if you put away
fifty again, go back to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
The compound online calculator, put.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Aside fifty seven thousand a year for ten years, you know,
at making eight percent nine percent? Holy smokes, the numbers
become staggering.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
M m exactly. Now, who can't have a solo four
wink and other's some sopistics. If you were working at.

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
A regular job and have a four one k, can
you have a solo four one keg as well?

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
Or no? So yeah, I love love this question.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
So the answer is, if let's say you works as
a CPA all right by day, and then you have
a side business in real estate, if that business is
substantially different, which you're a CPA, If then you do

(01:14:59):
tax re turns at night, you can't have a separate
business and a separate solo for one k. But if
you work as an accountant or a doctor, right and
have a four to one K at that business, and
then you have another business where you refurbish cars, or
you're a real estate entrepreneur, you absolutely can have a

(01:15:25):
separate solo for one K as long as your business
side business is substantially different from your day job. Holy smokes,
you know you do the math on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
That, right.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
Is there a specific amount you need to have making
or they need to contribute to a solo four one k?

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
So again there's you do not have to contribute the
maximum amount allowed. You know, it's it's really a combination.
If you you know, if you've made fifty thousand dollars
in your net is twenty wrong? You're starting out, Maybe
you can contribute five or something like that. So there's

(01:16:05):
there's there's no minimum amount. There's only a maximum.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
Amount of what you can contribute.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
Right, Let's see a couple of questions here. Ravel asked
the question you missed. What's the process converting from a
four oh one K? Well, if you've got a four
to one k already in a job, can you take
a chunk of that and move that into a self
directed IRA?

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
Or do I have the way to I leave the
company to roll that into an IRA? All Right, that's
great question.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Here's another nugget for you, and again this is only
you know, if you're in the trenches long enough, you
kind of hear it all, see it all right. So, really,
when we talk about four to one K rollovers to
an IRA, ninety nine point nine percent of the time,
we're talking about a four one K that you left behind.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
At another company. You no longer work at that company.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
That company really doesn't want your four to one K
because you're not there a company and they're paying for
your management expenses to a degree, they want you to
take it with you. So if if you can take
it and roll it over into your new company's score
one K, or you can roll it over into an
IRA ninety nine point nine percent of the time of

(01:17:17):
those discussions. However, if you are working currently at a
job and you have a four to one K, there
is a thing called an in service transfer, and it's
in the guidelines of when you signed up for that
four one K. It's in your administrative package. They will

(01:17:40):
tell you whether or not you can do this, and
typically the parameters are this is newer, like within the
last So if the plan is newer within the last
five years, it may have this feature. If it's an
older four one K probably doesn't. But they will allow
you to roll over up to fifty percent of what

(01:18:03):
you contributed. So you have one hundred thousand dollars IRA,
you contributed seventy five thousand. They may allow you to
roll over thirty seven thousand, five hundred half of what
you have contributed. But I can pretty much guarantee you

(01:18:24):
when you hop on the phone tomorrow to say, hey,
I want to do an in service transfer, they'll have
no idea. I had a discussion recently with the CFO
of a company who wanted to do this. He happened
to be the liaison for the four toh one K company,
and he said, oh, no, no, no, I'll pick up the phone.
I'll call the treasure myself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:42):
I'll get this. They had no idea what he was
talking about. He called me up.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
He said, Jim, you have no idea what you're talking about.
They never heard of an in service transfer, so it's
not well known and you're likely going to have to
go up the management ladder to get them to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
So it's in the provision. If they allow it, they
allow it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
It typical, Yeah, uh, I know the actual first attorney
that ever was able to get that done back Henry Novak,
who lives here in Austin, Texas, actually back years ago
when he was able to do some of that stuff there,
he had to fight and fight me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
I forgot it approved in a couple of cases. So
you get a quiments are glad d.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
You are a very modest guy. You You never told
me that you knew. You've never let on that you
knew about that, and you're I think the first person
I've ever spoke to that knew about that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
So I learned, I learned. I've educated myself as best
as I can there for you, most folks don't know.
But it's it's what you don't know. Some different opportunities there.
So uh, Fatma asked the question.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Also, what is e q RP. You know what that is?
E q r P or.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
No, uh, some sort of retirement plan e q r
P r P s ends for a retirement. I don't
know what fact you may have to clarify that. Can
you roll over a four one K from your current
company to a solo four one K while you were
still employed?

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
Oh that's a good question. I would think technically well
that that would actually again, I think that would go.
That would be an in service transfer.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Right right, I think that's what it would be there. Yeah,
that would be number one, it would be an in
service transfer.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
But number two, you'd be telling them in an indirect way, Hey,
I'm resigning.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
I'm going on to my full time gig over here. Yeah,
I want to do that one. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Be careful exactly so that it says is it advisable
to also have an asset manager manage your rollover roth
Ira or is it better to have it invest in
realistic I think that's that all depends on what you're
investing in.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
You can't really give any financial advice. You can't. Yeah,
you can invest your role over wroth Ira in real.

Speaker 1 (01:21:04):
Estate, Yeah, as long as it's in a with a
custodian that specializes in selftrated diary accounts.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Yeah, you can do that. Fat just depends to your custodian.
Answer your trustee is right.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
Correct, Yes, And in terms of that one part about advice,
an advisor most of the time that means when you
say advisor that you know they're with a brokerage firm.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
If they're with what we call.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
A wirehouse, you know, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley JP Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
They're not going to touch that with a ten foot.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
Poll for two reasons. One, the assets under management is
going to go out the door, and they don't want
to do that. They don't want to see that. Number Two,
they actually don't under Dot Frank, they no longer they
cannot take on any fiduciary responsibility for somebody that's going
to invest in a note, right because God forbid, the
note goes bad, and holy smokes, now that the Merrill

(01:21:55):
Lynch guy is hung up on that. There are and
this is kind of what we're talking a little bit
about what we're trying to do. There are some ria's
registered investment advisors that do have experience in alternative asset
classes like notes that can help you. And that's very
small piece, but I think that is going to be
the future. Again, as we take a look, Baby boom

(01:22:18):
generation looks at their portfolio three times a month and
there are ninety nine percent invested in public securities. Millennials
look at their portfolio eight times a day and they're
very much.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Into alternative assets. So I think that that is the future. Yeah,
it totally is.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
I mean, people are looking for different options that they
can understand and take advantage of. And I think it's
basically because a lot of folks you believe Wall Street's
rigged or the stock market's rigged.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
If you and you know, you know, it's if.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
You're not swinging a big bat with Wall Streets andthing
like that, it's hard to make a lot of money
and be on top of the stuff in some cases,
I'm Jim.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
Yeah, you know, with the programmed algorithmic trading that's done,
you can't. It's it's very, very difficult. Up to two
years ago, I was still trading twenty five times a day,
even though I was invested mostly in alternatives. Today, man,
it's hard, it's really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
And I've.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
Paid ten thousand dollars for this software trading program and
that software trading program that you know looks at technical analysis, and.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
It's very hard today.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
Yeah, and then especially when you look at all these
with it they call the dark pools at some of
these big investment companies run.

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
You know, you never know what's being traded in there.

Speaker 3 (01:23:42):
Absolutely, so you do your homework, you study notes, you know,
you make your really nice returns.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
You can control it. You can be the boss.

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
It's it's worth doing your homework and studying and becoming
good at it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
Is there a newsletter a periodical that you subscribe to
that you love to get information on, that you like
to stay on top of things.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
Digital Wealth News is one of the newer up and
coming deep wealth News and they I think they have
now over it's one hundred thousand unique kits every month
and they are completely focused in the alternative asset space.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
Do you ever see this is my personal question family offices.
How much are they playing in the self directed space?
Do you see a lot of that? Or not so much?

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
Not so much.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
It's it still goes back to the cumbersome process, right,
And when crowdfunding started, the whole model started changing, as
I said earlier, from.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
B two C to B to B two C.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):
So if you were self directed IRA custodie and then
you hitch your wagon to prosper, oh my god, you'd
be doing all these self directed iras. So around the
twenty fourteen fifteen now everybody started hitting up family offices and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
They use them.

Speaker 3 (01:25:08):
Conservatively, but you know they also have a pretty big
iron gate that you got to get past. So not
as much as you would think. Or Oh, there are
groups and associations that you can join with family offices
where you know, if you're a deal sponsor and you're
trying to get tap into that, you know you're really

(01:25:31):
you're striking gold. But it's it's a long journey to
get involved with family offices.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
Yeah, there's a family Office group that hosts a couple events,
one one in New York and one a book of
retone that we've been tapping into and going to that stuff.
Especially we're working through our fund and getting our our
five or six seed five or six being five or
six ceed and then before rege. So we're working thro
those hoops and you know, I'm gonna be hanging out

(01:25:56):
into a little bit of those places from time to time.

Speaker 3 (01:25:59):
Yeah, there's love to talk to you offline. And that
group out of a book is it's the largest group
there is.

Speaker 2 (01:26:06):
I think they have one thousand family offices. Great folks.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
Yeah, Okay, my reb actually lays out in your backyard Scottsdale.
Actually shout a Miami number right, calls me from Scottsdale.
So Carolyn asked questions, said, as you mention on at
the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
You have written some books.

Speaker 3 (01:26:26):
Yeah, I have a couple of books on Amazon Kindle
fifty nine and a half, Q and A Questions and Answers,
The Scepter, I Directed Ira Workbook, and then Prohibited Transactions.
Those are all coming down literally. I'm also about when
we talked about website. I'm also republishing that book. That

(01:26:49):
book will be out in the next thirty to forty
five days, and that will include all of the things
that we talked about that's new, like under the Secure
Act and what you can do. It's so much of
it is already two years out. That Act was twenty
twenty now there. They're going to pass an updated version
at the end of this year and so they'll be

(01:27:09):
even more changes. So a lot of it is just
outdated two years, three years ago. So be launching a
new book in the next thirty to forty five days.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
Well, that's the thing. Things are always constantly changing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):
You gotta know what's going on and what was true
five or ten years ago is not true these days.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
You gotta know what's going on in market these days.
So that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
James, thank you so much for coming on and spend
time with our audience today and then just really provide
the great stuff there.

Speaker 2 (01:27:33):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
We put his email on there, reach out to them,
you know, Jay Jones at IRA Exchange dot net.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
Correct. Well, we'll talk some more next week too, James.
All right, Oh, I look forward to Thank you so much.
Really an honor to be here. Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Have a great restur of weekend and joining looks I
got unpacked there which is good.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
But off to the pool. There you go, that's what
I would be doing. Sounds good. Take care, Thanks

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