Anthony Adu on Being Queer, African, and Finding His Voice

In this episode of Odejuma, Harry chats with Ghanaian-born actor Anthony Adu for a deeply reflective conversation about identity, queerness, and the power of storytelling. Anthony shares his experiences, from his early days in Ghana to building a life in the U.S. He opens up about navigating family expectations, cultural displacement, his career as an actor, and the emotional journey of embracing his truth as a queer African man.

Using his role in the world premiere of "When We Are Found," he discusses how performance can serve as a vessel for personal revelation and collective memory. Together, they explore the importance of authentic representation in the arts, the solidarity found within the Black diaspora, and why sharing our stories — raw, joyful, and complicated — is an act of resistance and love.

For anyone who believes in the transformative power of storytelling, this episode serves as a heartfelt reminder that our voices matter and that queerness and Africanness can coexist beautifully.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, my name is Harry, andwelcome to Odejuma.
Odejuma recognizes the magicof storytelling.
From personal experiences tostories of adventure, from tales
of resilience to finding joyin the simple things, this story
seeks to inspire, entertain,and educate because there is power
in the stories of everyday people.

(00:21):
And these stories are worth telling.
Hey, y' all, how's it going?
Welcome to another episode of Odajuma.
I'm so excited about today'sshow because I have a very fantastic

(00:41):
guest with me.
He's an actor and he's alsoAfrican, so, you know, I love my
Africans.
Hey, Anthony, how you doing today?
Hi.
Hi, Harry.
I am good.
I'm good.
I am awake.
It's early.
I appreciate.
I appreciate you doing thiswith me, though.
Like, you know, I appreciateyour time because I know you're currently
in the middle of your play,but you took out the time to come

(01:04):
on the podcast.
I'm really excited.
So thank you.
Yeah, absolutely.
No, it was a pleasure of mineto come on this.
Yeah.
And a little backstory I wentto see when we were found at Penumbra
Theater, and that's how Idiscovered Anthony, because it's
like a two person show andhe's on.
You know, he plays one of.
He plays multiple characterson the show, but you have to go see

(01:26):
the play to know that I'mlike, this person sounds way too
African to just be playing anAfrican character.
And so, yeah, so you connectthat and yeah, I'm really excited
to get to dive into thisconversation and get to know you
a little bit better.
Thank you.
Yes, yes.
Honestly, it actually makes meso happy to hear you say that because,

(01:47):
like, my goal always is, like,when I'm playing African on stage
is to, like, be as authenticas possible.
You know what I mean?
Like, really go there.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
We need that authenticity, youknow, from folks who are going to
be embodying ourcharacterizations and stuff.

(02:07):
You know, I love that rightnow the Black diaspora in general
is trying to be more inclusiveof all the stories of the diaspora.
So we're telling Caribbeanstories, African stories, African
American stories, BlackBritish stories.
So everything is being toldand being shared.
And I really kind of like that.
I mean, this new artisticrenaissance that we are in.

(02:30):
So I love that.
But you were raised in Ghana,you know, born and raised in Ghana,
and now you live in la.
So what.
How's that journey been foryou coming from, you know, West African
country to, you know, livingin the west, in court and.
Yeah, what does that look like?
And Being an actor and chasingyour acting dream in this country
also.
Has that process been for you?

(02:50):
It's been a journey, to saythe least.
Yeah.
You know, sometimes you just,like, you're living your life day
today, and then you don'tthink about, like, the way that you.
You started versus where youare now.
And, yeah, I feel like my lifehas been like a movie in a way.
Like, so, yeah, I was born andraised in Ghana.
Like, lived there my whole life.
My dad left when I was, like,about 3 years old for America, but

(03:14):
I have an older brother, and Ilived with my mom and, you know,
my aunts and uncles and allthem in Ghana.
And, yeah, grew up there.
Had my whole life there.
Never thought about Americaas, like, a place that I exactly
wanted to be or anything.
People travel all the time,but never thought about it until.
Yeah, my dad brought me and myolder brother to the US in 2009,

(03:37):
and when he brought us, welived in Colorado, in Aurora, Colorado.
So I ended up actually doing,you know, a part of my growing up
in Aurora.
I went to middle school, like,one year of middle school there.
I went to high school in Aurora.
And that.
That change in culture was alittle bit shocking because, you
know, I grew up my entire lifearound Ghanaians, like, speaking.

(04:00):
And it's so funny, when Ifirst got here, people were like,
you speak English so good.
You know, I get that a lot.
Yeah, I'm sure you do, becauseit's like, they're like, wait, just
because you're African doesn't.
Doesn't mean I don't speak English.
What do you mean?
English is, like, our national language.
Yeah, we were colonized.
Yeah, we were colonized.
No, so, yeah, so, like, youknow, that part of it, the language

(04:22):
part was whatever, but, like,it was really, like, people sort
of seeing me as, like, adifferent person, which I had never
experience in my whole life,like, being seen as different even
though I was black.
Like, I grew up around blackpeople, and so coming here and all
of a sudden me told, you're black?
Was like, whoa.
Like, this is a.
A different experience.
So, yeah, like, a lot of.
I feel like I was having a lotof, like, identity crises, obviously,

(04:46):
and.
And on top of being Africanand then.
Yeah, and then eventuallygoing to college in Denver, lived
at home during college and stuff.
And.
And it was through collegethat I sort of discovered my sexuality,
which I'm sure we'll get into more.
And, yeah, that also becameanother layer of, like, difference

(05:08):
and being, being othered,which I think, honestly, to Answer
your question.
In a way, like, feelingothered has always been my push forward.
So, like, when I got here andI was told, you're other because
you're black and you'reAfrican, I was like, okay, great.
How can I push forward to either?
Like, you know, initially itwas like, to.
To immerse myself in the culture.

(05:30):
And then at some point I waslike, oh, the other.
The other ring is actually agood thing.
So how do I make it my, like, superpower?
Honestly, my other ring led meto leaving Denver when I.
When I was done with collegeto then go to grad school in San
Diego.
Went to grad school in SanDiego, got my MFA in acting.
And from.
Yeah, that was a whole threeyears of crazy experience.

(05:53):
Yeah.
And then that.
Yeah, after I finished that in2021, that led me to.
I went back home to Ghana fora little bit, lived in New York for,
like, a second, and then,yeah, moved to la.
And I have been there pursuingmy career as an actor since.
And it's been a journey.
It really has been a journeyfrom what you wouldn't have described

(06:14):
to Colorado.
I'm just trying to thinkabout, like, how you, you know, you're
living a predominantly black country.
Right.
You're living, you know,everybody's black in Ghana, and now
you are, I believe, into color.
I've only been to Denver, Right.
So I don't have an idea of the.
I'm not trying to assumewhether it's like, living in Colorado,

(06:35):
but I want to assume that it'snot the most.
It's not filled with a lot ofmelanin people.
Right.
It's not, like.
Funny enough, though, youknow, I will say this.
Aurora specifically isactually very multicultural.
It's very, like, immigrant heavy.
So, like, there are a lot ofGhanaians, There are a lot of Nigerians.
There are a lot of, like,African people in Aurora.

(06:56):
And like, the high school thatI went to, it's.
It's called Overland High School.
Overland is like the most,like, multicultural school.
Like, you would walk down thehallway and, like, see people for,
like, from, like, Cambodia,from, like, you know, wherever in
the world.
It was like, so multicultural.
So, like.
Yes.
And.
But then it's so funny lateron in Denver, when I went to college

(07:16):
in Denver, which is literally,like, miles apart, or in Denver,
Denver is very white.
Yeah.
Yes.
So it's like, even.
Regardless of, like, even inAurora or in Denver, there is still.
It's still a difference from.
There's something differentwhen you are born and raised in an
African country.
When, like, you know, growingup in Nigeria, you see a.

(07:37):
You see a white person, you'relike, oh, you know, as opposed to
here, you are the one that isthe O.
You know, where you walk through.
And so I still have to saythat that must have been a shift
already for you to navigateand then having to now be discovering
who you are as a queer personthrough that journey.

(07:58):
So now you're not.
You're.
You're in a different country.
You are in a, you know, whitepwi, I'm guessing, and you are figuring
out your sexuality.
What was that like?
I'm just trying to just, youknow, conceptualize that in my mind.
Yeah, a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, what it was like wasthat it was.

(08:21):
It was, like, difficult.
Like, it was like.
It was difficult.
Yet I think the thing.
One thing about me is that,like, I approach difficulty with,
like, opportunity.
Like, I'm always like, wait,what's the.
What's the other side here?
What's the bright side here?
And so, like, when I firstmoved here, I mean, when I first
moved to Colorado, like, Iknew I was different because I was
being told that all the time.
And what's funny, too, isthat, like, you know, black Americans

(08:44):
would also tell me I was different.
Like, would also be like, no,no, but you're African, which is,
like, different from what we are.
And I was always like, wait,that's wild, because, like, basically,
we're the same people.
Just your people were takenand mine stayed, you know?
And so I feel like even thatnavigating relationships with, like,
black Americans when I firstmoved here was a little bit difficult
because I grew up in the church.

(09:07):
And so, like, we.
We went to, like, apredominantly, like, black American
church, and we had, like, anAfrican sector in the black American
church.
And even my relationships withthose, like, church folks who were
black Americans were very hardbecause in a way, they saw me as
different.
And, like, I felt like Ialways had to sort of, like, become
like them, which is.

(09:28):
Sounds so weird, but, like, Ihad to, like, change the way I speak
a little bit.
I had to, like, change the waythat I approached people a little
bit, to sort of, like, feellike I belonged in that church.
So that was, like, a layerthat was really difficult.
So then it's so funny becausethen one once I went to college,
which was a pwi, University ofDenver, remember?
I felt myself sort of notknowing who I was.

(09:50):
Like, I was.
I was like, okay, I'm not.
I'm not black enough for theBlack people.
And I'm not, like, I'm notChristian enough now for the Christians.
And I'm.
And now because I'm changing alot, you know, partly because I want
to and partly because, like,that's just life.
You change wherever you go.
Now all of a sudden, I'm alsonot African for the Africans.

(10:12):
I found myself being like, oh,I don't belong anywhere.
And then on top of that, Isort of started figuring out my sexuality
when I was in high school andthen into college.
Once I got into college andgot into theater, it was then around
a lot of queer people, a lotof gay people, a lot of lesbians,
a lot of trans people.

(10:33):
All of a sudden I was like,oh, like, I'm.
They're actually helping mediscover who I am more.
And what's funny is, a lot ofthose people were white.
And so I found that a lot ofmy friends were white because, like.
Like, I belonged with thembecause I was a gay, you know, black
African man trying to discoverwho they were.
And sort of the only peoplewho were, like, accepting me at the

(10:56):
time were all these, like,white, queer people.
And so I feel like throughoutmy growing up, I was a bit of a shapeshifter.
I was always, like, shapeshifting into, like, what culture
I could, like, tap into that felt.
Felt like I could get accepted.
Yeah.
Because then once I got intocollege and at some point, like,
eventually was like, I'm just gonna.

(11:16):
Also, can I cuss on this?
I don't want to cuss.
Feel free to be yourself.
Yeah, I was like, once Idiscovered who, like, the fuck I
am, once I started really,like, you know, just really getting
into that, like, then I alsofelt ostracized fully from, like,
my family and from, like,Africans and sometimes from black

(11:37):
people, because it was justlike, now you're gay and you're African.
Okay, now that's double strike there.
And you're in theater.
Triple strike, in fact.
You know what?
Go away.
It's not like, you know, Ifound myself a lot of times feeling
alone.
Alone, sort of dejected.
But then once I found mypeople, it was sort of like they
didn't look like me.
And so I was like, okay, great.

(11:58):
Like, let me just be with thepeople who accept me, even if they
don't look like me.
So.
Yeah, I hope that makes sense.
Like, it was just like.
It's been like a journey likethis throughout my life of, like,
figuring out who I am based onwhere I am, based on who's going
to accept me.
Yeah.
But How.
How have you navigated that?
Because I feel like the blackexperience is multilayered.

(12:21):
It's multi.
It's nuanced based on whereyou were raised and how you were
raised and how you showed up.
Even the black experience inthe United States is also very nuanced
in itself based on where you.
Where you live in the country,who you're hanging out with, all
that kind of stuff.
And so how has that shiftedfor you now after you've been here

(12:43):
for a while, You've lived herefor a while.
What is the.
I don't want to say.
What is the switch?
But how would you say, how doyou navigate now?
Because.
Because I feel like, you know,and ultimately, like, there has to
be a level of solidarity andtogetherness, you know, for the black
diaspora, regardless of whatpart you come from.

(13:06):
Because our experiencesnavigating our blackness in a predominantly
white space is going to bevery similar, regardless of how we
were raised on our Europeexperiences, like I said, whether
we're black America and Obi,or Africa and.
Or Caribbean or from the black British.
So what.
What.
What is that like for you nowyears into living in the United States?

(13:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
That's a great question.
Because I feel like.
So I feel like I mentioned allof that.
That I feel like most of thatsort of shape shifting I was doing
was when I was in my youth,right when I.
When I was young, and I waslike, I don't know what to do.
Once I, like, moved.
Once I actually finishedcollege and moved to San Diego for
grad school.
Grad school, once again, waslike another, like, fully shifting

(13:52):
in my life.
And I feel like it was in gradschool that I actually really discovered
who I was as a black, queer,African man.
Because I got to that school,and unlike my college, which was,
like, very white, my.
My grad school, in my class,in the classes that were around me
were a lot of black people.
Like, I all of a sudden waslike, oh, my God, I found my people

(14:15):
and a lot of black queerpeople also in grad school, which
all of a sudden, like, I waslike, it's so funny.
I feel like for.
I remember in, like, the firstyear, I had a lot of my.
My friends who I love dearly,like, sort of in subtle ways, and
sometimes not so subtle waysbe like, now, girl, you need to be
more like yourself.

(14:35):
And I was like, what do you mean?
I know who I am.
What you mean?
And they were like, but, like,you're hiding.
Like, you're Putting onsomething, and, like, I don't know
what it is.
And for a long time, I waslike, I.
Like, I once again was like, Ithought I knew who I was, and I came
here, and now I'm being told Idon't know who I am.
And you know what?
I was mad at them.
But they were right because,like, I feel like I was putting on.

(14:57):
I had been putting on whiteness.
Like, I had been putting onwhat it means to be, like, a white
person who, like, can getaccepted by a lot of people.
And it was in grad school thatI learned, like, I can be black.
I can be gay, I can be African fully.
Like, in grad school, Istarted, like, sort of rediscovering
my African ness and, like,really steeping myself into that,

(15:21):
like, including my accent.
Like, I feel like for thelongest time, I used to, like, try
to sound, like, very white,you know, like, and, like, after
a while, I was like, maybe letme just sound like myself and just
be myself.
And I feel like in gradschool, like, I really started actually
creating relationships withother black people in a way that
I had not created before.
And so all of a sudden, I feltlike, like, the conversation, the

(15:43):
thing you just brought up of,like, there are diasporic conversations
and relationships we can have,because I was one of three, I would
say, African people.
Like, there was almost like,an African person each year of school.
And I was like, no one, youknow, for my year.
And so at first I was like,okay, that's a little hard.

(16:04):
But then I was like, oh, meand my friend Cornelius, who was
in my class, he's from South Carolina.
And, like, in a way, weactually bond, like, in a very deep
way, because he understandsthe African experience and I understand
the African American experience.
And we're both queer, andwe're both, like, trying to be actors.
And, like, I all of a suddenstarted finding commonalities between

(16:28):
me and all the other blackpeople in the program.
And by the end of those threeyears, there was no longer me putting
on anything.
There was no longer, like, metrying to shape shift into something
else.
Like, I feel like I fullybecame who I was.
I really became who I was.
Like, now I'm, like, at aplace where I'm like, oh, I have

(16:48):
no doubt of who I am as aqueer African, black man.
Like, that's who I am.
And.
And, yeah, and through that,like, I feel like I started to understand
that, like, Africans andAfrican Americans and, like, black
British people, we are all the same.
We just have different experiences.
In fact, like you said, like,black people in America, some.
Someone who's from Cali has.

(17:09):
Has a very differentexperience from somebody who's from
South Carolina.
But maybe we're still thesame, because at the end of the day,
once we're in a room wherewe're not the majority or when we
even are the majority, it'sstill, like, we still have to, like,
create solidarity to move forward.
Like, we can't have these,like, interpersonal fightings because,
like, oh, you have thisexperience, and you have this experience.

(17:30):
Like.
No, like, what's beautifulabout us as black people is that,
like, we are multicultural.
Like, we have so much layersto our living that, like, the only
way we can actually, like,move forward is by, like, appreciating
those layers and comingtogether as a whole.
Yeah.
And that's.
And I fully believe in that.
I fully believe in that with,like, my 10 toes.

(17:54):
We're going to have to takeyou back a little bit because I'm
very fascinated by yourjourney as someone who your.
Your life has made a journeyof discovery right from.
You've shared.
But at what point did yourealize that storytelling was a thing
for you wanted to tell stories?
And when did you also realizethat acting was going to be your
medium for telling those stories?

(18:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
I feel like, you know, I feellike I've always been a storyteller.
Kind of like Africans, maybewe tell stories like, you know, growing
up, like, you know, your auntswould come to the house and be like,
oh, you know, like.
And start, like, going on andon about something, and you're like,

(18:35):
okay, like, auntie, what happened?
And so I feel like it's alwaysbeen in my bones.
My mother is, like, the most,like, juicy storyteller that I feel
like.
I know, but I really didn'tdiscover that it was something I
wanted to do until high school.
I used to do speech and debatein high school, and I used to do,
like, the speech side ofspeech and debate, which is, like,
actually a lot about, like,telling speeches and telling stories.

(18:57):
Like, there's these.
These events called interpretation.
So, like, you do, like,dramatic interpretation or a comedic
interpretation or duo, whichis, like, two people where you can't
look at each other and youcan't touch.
It's, like, very funny.
And I used to do that's.
I did that throughout myentire high school experience.
And I was very good at it.
I was very good at it.

(19:17):
I, like, went to Nationals,like, all the.
All that.
All those things.
And.
And throughout that whole timein my mind, like, also a conversation
I had with my dad at the time.
He was like, you can either bea lawyer, a doctor, or engineer.
You know, that's surreal.
That is surreal.
You know, like, nothing else.
Maybe pharmacist.
Like, you know what I mean?

(19:38):
It's like, that's it.
So I was like, okay, fine, Iguess I'll be an engineer.
And then when I was a juniorin high school, I love telling the
story when I was a junior inhigh school.
So speech judges would, like,write on, like, little notes and,
like, give you comments and stuff.
And one speech judge wrote onmy ballot, she wrote, anthony should
be on Broadway with his own show.

(19:58):
Like, and.
And then we're like, excellent job.
But at the bottom of that, itwas like, anthony should be on Broadway
with his own show.
And I was like.
I was like, what's Broadway?
I grew up in an African household.
That was not a part of our language.
Like, being.
Even being an artist, like,was so not a thing.
So I was like, okay.
Until I, like, I remember I,like, went home to, like, my big

(20:20):
desktop computer.
Like, went and, like, startedsearching, and I was like, what's
Broadway?
And, like, started, like, looking.
And literally over a weekend,literally over a weekend, I, like,
watched so many videos.
I was, like, watching allthese YouTube videos and stuff.
And I came back to school thenext Monday and, like, told one of
my best friends at a time,we're no longer friends for this
reason.
We're no longer friends.

(20:40):
I told him at the time, I waslike, my God, I'm gonna be on Broadway.
Like, I want to be an actor.
I think that's what I want to do.
And, like, he was, like,really an actor.
And I was like, yeah.
I was like, I don't know.
There's something about it.
And he's like, you didn'tstart when you were young.
Like, you'll never make it.
Damn.
Damn.
It's right.
I was like, what the.

(21:00):
I was like, hello.
You could be at least encouraging.
And I remember I started toside eye him from then on out.
And then we.
At some point, we start being friends.
Because I was like, oh, you're not.
You are not a good person for me.
Damn.
Yeah, it really.
I mean, he really kind of was,like, laid on me about it, and I
was like, okay, whatever.
And.
And swap the rest of my junioryear and my senior year, I started.

(21:21):
I took, like, one acting classwhen I was in high school, and I,
like, loved it.
I loved it.
And I was like, oh, this isreally cool.
And it wasn't until college.
And I remember once I wasgoing to college and having to convince
my African father that Iwanted to do acting.
How did I go?
Oh, I, like, bad, bad.
Like, I mean, he was like,what are you doing with your life?

(21:44):
Like, you know, like, youthink you're just going to go be
out there, like, you're notgoing to make any money.
Like, how are you going totake care of a family?
That was like, the big thing.
How are you going to take careof a family?
You know that?
And I was like.
I was like, I don't know,like, I'll figure it out, but, like,
it's just something I want todo, you know, just let me be free.
And, like, he was like, no,no, no, no, no.
Like, he literally would notlet me.
And so he eventually, like,one of my aunts was like, you know,

(22:06):
you can maybe study that andalso maybe study something else.
And I was like, fine, I'll bea double major in theater and communications.
Okay.
I was like, I'll do something else.
And you know what?
I tried to double major.
I ended up not double major.
I minored in communications,which, you know, so I got a little
degree.
But it really wasn't untilcollege that, like, I started full

(22:27):
throttle.
Like, when I got to college, Istarted taking acting classes left
and right, theater classesleft and right.
Like, I started, like,auditioning for, like, you know,
shows in the program, startedauditioning for stuff outside of
the program.
Like, I started auditioning professionally.
So then was in college that itdawned on me, like, acting and storytelling.

(22:48):
Like, and I like to.
I like to describe myself as astoryteller more than an actor because,
like, acting is only one partof it.
I like to tell stories in somany different mediums.
And, like, yeah, it felt liketheater and acting and.
And all that was, like, themedium that I felt like I could connect
to people.
Like, it started with mewanting to connect with myself.
And then it became like, onceI connected to myself, now I want
to connect with other peopleand, like, really tell stories, to,

(23:11):
like, just dig into parts oflife that, like, you know, are hard
to navigate sometimes.
Yeah, that's real.
That's how it starts.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm curious, you know,about, like, what are some of the
Broadway shows that you.
That, you know, really, like,have made an impact on you?
And also, what were the showsthat you auditioned for?
What are the shows that you,like, you know, audition for, done

(23:33):
through that process?
I'm just curious about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Oh, my.
It's so funny.
When I first started, like,discovering, like, Broadway and all
that, I remember there wasthis show called Kinky Boots.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know Kinky Boots?
I know Kinky Boots.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so funny like, that.
That's how I.
It started for me because,like, it's, like, the gayest show.

(23:54):
Like, you know, like, it's so,like, an African upbringing at all.
And I remember I discovered itbecause I was.
It's so funny.
Billy Porter likes to tellthis story of himself that actually,
like, it's so funny.
I sort of had a similarversion of his story that happened
to me because of him.
I was, like, washing dishes,like, one Sunday night, like, at
home watching, like, the tv,and, like, the Tonys came on, and

(24:18):
this was, like, what, theTonys of 2013 or something like that.
This is when I had just firstdiscovered Broadway, and I was, like,
watching it, and I was like,wait, what is that?
And I saw these peopleperforming on screen, and I was like,
wait, this is wild.
And so I went and literallysat my ass down.
And then Kinky Boots came onand started playing, performing.
And by the end of theirperformance, I was gobsmacked.

(24:43):
Like, what is that?
I was like, what is that?
Like, I want to do that.
I want to be on stage.
I want to be performing.
Like, that's what I want to do.
And so I remember I, like,just got so obsessed with that show
and, like, wanted to be, like,Lola and Kinky Boots so bad.
So, like, that was one.
And then, like, eventually itwas, like, Wicked.
It was like, one that, like,you obviously, like, I became obsessed

(25:05):
with everyone's obsessiveWicked now.
And, like, it was like that.
And it's so funny, actually,recently, I remember that one of
the shows that, like, really Ibecame touched me when I was, like,
younger as well, because Ialso used to watch a lot of, like,
bootlegs from, like, Broadwayshows, and one bootleg that hit me
like a ton of bricks was Nextto Normal.
I haven't heard of that one.

(25:25):
Yeah, it's a great one.
It's a great.
It's basically about, like,this family navigating a mother who
is mentally ill and, like,dealing with, like, mental illness
and, like.
But the.
The musical talks more about, like.
Like, relationships and, like, and.
And how drugs can.
Can help and hurt and, like,it's just so layered and.

(25:46):
And there's, like, a revivalof it in London right now.
And so I just, like,remembered it.
I Was like, oh, whoa.
I remember at the time becausealso the other thing is, like, I've
always sang my whole life, butI remember at some point I was like,
musicals really aren't for me.
Like, I don't know, like, if Ican, like, do, like, the high kick
and all that.
You know, all that.
But I remember next to normalwas one where I was like, oh.
The acting was like, theforward motion of that thing was

(26:07):
like.
It was that.
And then the singing andeverything else became, like, secondary.
And I was like, oh.
Like, that's what I want to do.
Like, I want to be an actor.
Like, I love singing,obviously, but, like, I don't want
to just do, like, freely musicals.
Like, I want to, like, just,like, tell stories and, like, make
people laugh and like, youknow, all that.
So, yeah, it was like thosethree musicals and then.
And then.
Yeah.
And then once I was incollege, like, I remember I did one

(26:28):
of my first shows I did incollege was called Stage Door.
It's this.
I'm like, I hope I don'toffend anyone, but it's a stupid
ass.
Oh, my God.
I have to Google Stage Door now.
Yeah, it's.
It's like a play from, like,the 1930s.
And, like, you know, it's allabout all these actresses trying
to make it in New York.
And, like, I played one of themen, the gentleman callers.

(26:50):
And.
And I was like, what?
I.
What is this?
I came to college to be a storyteller.
What is this?
But then I started doing,like, other stuff.
And, like, one of my firstprofessional shows I did was called
Tartuffe, Old French comedy.
And, like, even though it'slike, old and French, like, I remember,
like, I played like, a blackman, and I had dreads and everything.

(27:10):
And, like, it was like, everything.
I was like, oh.
I was like, this is it.
Like, this is things that Iwant to do.
And.
And so, like, I started with alot of, like, sort of like, you know,
classical work, but theneventually, especially once I got
to grad school, was doingmore, like, contemporary work, which
was, like, really, really cool.
That is pretty cool.
Is that like a Broadway showthat you.

(27:31):
Or, like, a show in general?
I got like, maybe like, sayfour or five shows that you really,
really want to do.
I'm guessing Kinky Boots isone of them, but I could be assuming.
Yeah.
Honestly.
You know what?
I'm gonna put it out there.
Sure.
I want to do Kinky Boots.
Oh, no.
Okay.
Cute.
Like, I feel like I could really.
And, you know, you saw theshow, like, I mean, in this show,

(27:52):
like, it kind of gets to do,like, be a little sexy.
Like, kind of like little things.
They're like, yeah, like, Iwould say that's one of them.
It's so hard for me nowadaysbecause I feel like nowadays all
I want to do is, like, new plays.
Like, the things that I wantto do are not written yet or are
being written right now.
And so, like, it's hard for meto be like, oh, these Broadway shows

(28:14):
I want to be in.
Da da da, da, da da.
But, like, like, for example,like, a show that I recently saw
on Broadway that, like,touched me and, like, I would want
to do something like.
That was Jaja's African hair braiding.
I love that show.
I love that show.
My God, I love that show.
I didn't see it on Broadway.
I.
It in Chicago at theShakespeare Theater.
Yeah, I think they were touring.
They were doing, like, a mini tour.

(28:35):
I don't know if it was the tour.
I don't know if the.
The theater put it up, but Isaw it there.
My friend.
My friend may have seen.
My friend Leo Vina is in that production.
Oh, the one in Chicago?
Yeah, the one in Chicago andthe one that's touring around.
Probably.
Probably.
I saw it there, and then I saw.
There's a theater in South.
Is this South Fulton?
It's like a suburb in Atlanta.
They did.

(28:55):
They.
They did it.
So they did a good job too, also.
But I saw it in Chicago.
I was like, this is so.
It is so.
Jaja is so relevant right nowin the way.
The world that we are in.
It is authentically African tothe bone in a way that celebrates
the different parts of who weare, from Nigeria to Ghana to Sierra

(29:17):
Leone.
And then also the diasporicthing we talked about earlier on.
Right.
And the camaraderie betweenblack people and African Americans
and African people.
It's just everybody was.
There was a diverse audience.
Everybody was laughing.
Everybody loved it.
I love judges.
I could talk about judges allday, you know, that is such a good

(29:38):
show.
Yeah.
And you would thrive in that show.
Actually.
Love to be, like, the gentleman.
I mean, like.
I mean.
And also, like, I love.
You've actually seen already.
Like, I love playing different roles.
Like, I.
I love being in one show whereI can play, like, five different
roles and switch, switch.
And, like, that is a play, andI kind of play that, like, I wanna

(30:00):
do so bad.
I wanna.
Oh, man.
Yeah, that would.
So, like, I guess.
Yeah, Jajas would be one ofthem and, like, and plays like, jajas.
Like, I wanna.
Like, I actually think what'sfunny is, I think over the years,
like, I've now, like, reallybecome very clear, like, I want to
tell African stories.
Stories.
Like.
And I know that puts me insuch a niche, but, like, I sort of
don't care because, like, theniche is actually what makes me powerful.

(30:24):
Like, I want to tell African stories.
Like, I want to tell queerAfrican stories.
Like, Like, I.
I'm.
I'm trying to write also someof those stories as well and not
just wait for other people todo it for me.
And so, like, yeah, those arethe kinds of things that I really
want to do.
Yeah.
And heavy on the queer African stories.
I feel like there is an idea that.

(30:44):
Which is.
Which is why I.
Like where.
When we're a fan, which we'regoing to get into in a little bit,
but the idea that when yougrow up as a queer person on the
continent, the idea that yourqueerness is the result of Western
influences.
Right.
Or you watched a lot ofAmerican movies, or you, you know,
you are influenced by theculture of the folks, you know, that

(31:05):
live in the, you know,wherever they live, that us as Africans
are not queer in ourselves.
Right.
But just, you know, learningthat there are people who may live
in the villages.
I may have no access.
Yes.
To foreign content at all, butare still queer.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying that,you know, we have ancestors who are

(31:26):
queer.
We have people who don't speaka lick of English but know how to
articulate their love for, youknow, the same sex or know how to
articulate.
They are transness.
You know what I'm saying?
And I'm like, we have to beable to tell our stories because
it solidifies that, you know,queerness is African.
Right.
And it's a huge lie that it isof a Western influence or import

(31:51):
or whatever they want to.
They want to paint it at.
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, you.
I mean.
Oh, you articulated thatperfectly, Harry.
Like that.
I mean, it's.
So being queer is being African.
Like, it just is.
And what's funny is that like,like, true story.
Like when I was.
When I was a child in Ghana,like, before I knew even what America

(32:14):
was like, before I knew,before I even knew how to articulate
words, I knew I was gay.
Like, I knew.
Like, I.
I remember I went to my momwhen I was like a very young boy,
and I.
I used to have, like, a crushon, like, one of my best friends,
and I was like, it was KennethOh, God.
I was obsessed.
And I went.
And I was like.
I was like.

(32:34):
I said, I know everyone canhave a girlfriend, but could you
have a boyfriend?
And she was like, wait, whatdo you mean?
And I was like.
I was like.
I was like, I don't know.
Like.
Like, you know, Regina islike, my friend who's a girl.
Kenneth could also be my boyfriend.
Right?
And, like, she was like, yes,but just don't say that.
She's like, just don't say it, please.

(32:55):
Like, please.
I was like, okay.
And I.
And I knew.
I knew even before I couldarticulate who I was that I.
I was gay.
I was queer.
And so, like, yeah, like, and.
And then when I went back hometo Ghana for the first time in 12
years, went back in 2021, Iwas told, like, almost point blank
by almost everyone, includingmy mother, that, like.

(33:17):
Like, now that you're gay,because now that you're gay, like,
you're not Ghanaian, you'renot African.
Wow.
Like, straight up was beingtold, like, like, you can't be African
and gay.
Like, like, you said, that's aWestern Netherlands.
They've changed.
You've changed, dude.
They've changed you over there.
And it's like, wait, what?
Like, I was always this way.
I just now have the words.

(33:38):
I have the language.
I have the.
I have the wherewithal to,like, truly fully be myself.
Right.
And for some reason, they just.
I do not.
Yeah.
I could go into this all day.
Yeah.
And you know, that.
That has.
That had to have been hard.
And I mean, and I know that,like, an Instagram bio, for example,
says your mom wants you to bea pastor.
So just curious about, like,that was funny, though.

(33:59):
But, like, hearing thiscontext now, just curious about what
is that relationship?
Like, not just even with yourmom, but also with your dad, who
you kind of grew up with righthere in the state.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's so funny, because nowthat you're asking, I'm like, I also
want to know your story,because I'm like, I know this one.
But, like, I'm like, I want tohear the Harry story, too.

(34:19):
You know, you probably will.
You probably will, you know,but you are.
You have center stage.
You are the guest on the show.
You are.
This is your.
This is your stage, you know?
Sure, fine.
Fine.
Okay.
We're gonna find out.
But yeah, yeah, no, yeah.
My Instagram bio says mymother wishes I was a pastor.
And that's not just that she wished.
It's like, she still wishes.

(34:42):
So growing Up.
I grew up in the church.
You know, talk about Western influence.
Like, the church is a Western that.
That they're not ready forthat conversation.
I'm not ready for that conversation.
Yeah.
Not ready for thatconversation, though.
That actually.
The reason why you think mybeing is inherently wrong is because
of the Western influenceyou've gotten from the church that

(35:02):
says that my being is wrongbecause maybe we've always existed,
you know, like the, the, thewitch doctors and the, like, people
who live in the, like the, thewoods in Ghana and then I'm sure,
Nigeria.
A lot of them are queer.
That's why they are able to,like, like, be able to like, access
the gods.
Right?
And so it's funny that, like,all of a sudden we're like, villainizing
those people because of thisthing called church.

(35:25):
Anyway, that's.
I can rant.
Yeah.
Like, but, but yeah, no, my, my.
So my relationship with my dadis that we don't have a relationship
anymore.
It's.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I've.
I've done a lot of work.
Work, a lot of therapy tounpack that.
And it no longer, like, sortof affects me in a way that it used

(35:47):
to.
I moved here, right.
I didn't live with my mom anymore.
And so my mom and I, we sortof like, always have had a relationship,
but sort of like through phonecalls and all that.
And so I'll get to her in a second.
But with my dad, I got kickedout of the house when I was in college
because of being gay.
Barged into my room one nightand was like, was like, are you gay?

(36:09):
And I was like.
And I knew in my heart ofhearts, I was like, if I come out
to this man, the result wouldnot be good.
Like, I mean, or I'm going tobe kicked out or something terrible
is going to happen to me.
My dad is like a deacon at church.
You know what I mean?
I grew up.
I grew up.
Like, honestly, I went to,like, preachers camp when I was 13

(36:31):
because that's what I wassupposed to be, was to be a preacher.
Like, and, and yeah, and, and,and I think when I was growing up,
I, I, that's something I didwant because I thought, oh, yeah,
like, I was put on this earthto, like, preach the word of God.
And so, like, okay, cool,that's something I want.
And like, I loved church.
Like, I loved the communityaspect of it.
I loved the singing aspect of it.

(36:53):
But once the church started totell me that, like, I couldn't be
who I was.
I started to get from itbecause I was like, oh, God preaches
about love, but not telling methat, like, I can't be loved by the
per.
By the.
The entity that created me tobe exactly who I am.
I just could not understand that.

(37:13):
And so I started to sort ofdistance myself from the church,
but I was still being forcedto go every Sunday.
I had to go to church with my dad.
And so when he barges into myroom and says that, I was like, no,
I'm not.
Like, basically, I.
I lied to him.
I was like, no, I'm not.
What are you talking about?
And he's like.
He's like, I know you are.
Like, I've seen your Facebook.
Like, I know the people youhung out with.

(37:34):
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
But you need to figure it out,because I can't have a gay son in
my house.
And I was like, okay, I don'tknow what you want me to say to that.
And he's like.
He's like, just figure it out.
Figure it out.
You're either gonna be gay andleave my house, or you're gonna change
and go to church.
And da, da, da, da.
And I was like, okay, well,I'll take your options into consideration.

(37:59):
Let me just go back to bedbecause I'm trying to go to sleep.
I have school the next day.
I have a show to do the next day.
Like, I'm nothing about thisright now.
So I really did not take itseriously, because, you know, African
parents, they make threats allthe time, and you're like, whatever.
Sure enough, a week later, he,like, grabs my keys.
I'm like, getting ready to godo, like, one of my first professional

(38:20):
shows in Denver.
And he goes, figure out whereyou're gonna go sleep tonight, because
you can't come back here.
Oh, wow.
True story.
I was like, are you serious?
And he's like, yeah, I am so serious.
I cannot have a gay person inmy house.
I was like, okay.
I, like, grab.
Basically grabbed, like, twoor three pieces of clothing.
I was, like, running late togo do my show.

(38:40):
That's always happened to me.
Like, bad things happen to mealmost every time something really
great is happening to me atthe same time.
And.
And I was like, okay, great.
I grab all my shit, and, like,I leave.
I go and, like, sweep from the bus.
I'm, like, on the bus going,it didn't feel real.
You know, I was like, that.
That didn't feel real.
And so I go do my show, andI'm doing A show called the Christians.

(39:01):
Wow.
The Christians by Lucas Nath.
And it's a show about, like,church and about, like, when church
starts to, like, defy what,like, what people, like, believe.
Like, how do people navigate?
And, like, these two preachersbasically have fighting the whole
time.
And I'm sitting there, I was,like, part of the choir, and, you
know, I'm praising God, andI'm in my head, I'm thinking, I'm

(39:21):
praising God, but because ofGod, my dad just kicked me out of
the house.
And then.
Yeah, and then the show ends.
I was like, I don't know whatto do.
I, like, go back to call it tomy college, and I end up sleeping
in the couches of the green room.
I was practically homeless forthree months.

(39:41):
Sense.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, thank you.
I mean, it was.
It was crazy.
Like.
And for the longest time,nobody knew that this was happening
to me.
I was, you know, I was like.
I was sort of.
One thing about me, I'm cunning.
Like, I will find a way tomake it work.
So, like, yeah, I was makingit work.
Nobody knew.
I was like, I didn't have ahome to be in.
And I remember eventually,like, one of my teachers, like, found

(40:04):
out.
That's also another long story.
It's like, he found out thatteacher sort of changed my life.
And, like.
Like, he's like, okay, great.
He's like, I won't let yousleep in the green room.
You can sleep in my office.
And I was like.
He's like, I wish I could,like, bring you home, but, you know,
that's, like, not allowed.
And so he's like, you cansleep in my office.
I'll give you a key to my office.
And so, yeah, I slept in this office.

(40:25):
And so in between the greenroom and the office, that's.
That was my living situationfor three months, until eventually,
like, I found an apartmentnear the campus and stuff like that
and then moved into that apartment.
And then a year later, I wasin San Diego.
So, yeah, that.
That all was, like.
The way in which my Africanfather, like, approached my sexuality
was to, like, kick me out ofthe house.

(40:45):
I tried going back.
Like, I.
This is again, a time where Iwas trying to shape shift, and I
was like.
I went back and I was like.
I was like, I'm not gonnachange who I am.
I.
I remember my conversation Ihad with him.
I was like, if I've donesomething to offend you, like, I
would love to know what thosethings are, and I would love to,
like, Fix them.
Like, well, you're a bad kidand blah, blah, blah.

(41:06):
And all these people haveinfluence on you.
And, like, he just wentthrough a list, and I was like, all
those things are made up.
You just think horribly of mebecause of my sexuality.
Can't change that.
And so I'm gonna grab the restof my shit and I'm gonna leave this
house, and I would never seeyou again until you come reaching
for me.
And over the years, like, I,I've tried many times to, like, reach

(41:28):
him.
Especially, like, once, like,I did, I, like, did.
Did therapy in grad schooland, like, realized that, like, I,
I actually need to, like, sortof release him from my life.
Like, I can't hold on to it so much.
I, like, called him and, like,read a letter to him and, like, I
was like, hey, like, you know,I just want to have a relationship
with you.
If you want.

(41:48):
I will not reach out to youunless you reach out to me again.
What?
So that was 20, 25 years later.
Not a word from my father.
That's just what it is.
But, like, I, I, I actuallythank him sometimes for that push
because, like, in a way thatreally forced me to, like, really
dig into my sexuality and belike, okay, is this really who I

(42:10):
am?
Like, am I being influenced?
Like, I really had to, like,think about all the things through
all these things, and Irealized I was like, oh, no, this
is.
Has always been who I am.
Like, I had conversations withmy mom where I was like, remember
when I asked you, like, can Ihave a boyfriend?
Like, why did you think Iasked you that?
Like, I was always gay.
And, like, you know, myrelationship with her, I still have
a relationship with her, but,like, when I went back to Ghana,
that was a whole other thing.

(42:31):
Like, I mean, I, I just hadsuch a hard time being back home
with her.
We were fighting every daybecause I was gay, because I am gay.
And, like, you know, she justwould never change.
And I can't ask her to change.
Like, I no longer feel theneed to, like, ask people to change
for me.
I'm like, either come aboardor don't, because I am not about

(42:52):
to change for anybody else,and I will not expect the same of
you.
And so in a way, we have arelationship where we just don't
talk about it.
And she's still literally, sothey say, well, call me.
So they'll be like, you know,I wish you were, you know, that you
would be a pasta, and da, da,da, da, da, da.
And I'm like, yeah, Keepdreaming, girl.
I'm like, keep dreaming.
And you know what?
And part of the reason why Iput it on my Instagram is because

(43:16):
I.
I was like, I've had a lot ofconversations with friends over the
years about this thing, and.
And I was like.
And a lot of the things thathas come up is like, I am a preacher.
Preach through.
Through storytelling, like,through being a queer black man on
stage, like, and on screen.
That's the way that I'mpreaching to the world is, like,
acceptance and, like, and howto yourself.

(43:38):
Because I get to be myself.
Yeah.
So, yeah, in a way, I'm like.
I'm like, oh, I am fulfillingmy mother's wishes.
Yeah, that is real.
But it has to be.
No, I understand.
But it also has to be, like,you know, navigating like family.
That is.
I think that that's, like, nomatter how.

(43:59):
How much we believe or wetrust that we are.
We can.
We are fine, you know, byourselves, and we don't need anybody.
Like, I feel like our familiesare still very, like, important to
us in a way.
And so just hearing yourstory, it's a one of great strength,
but also, like, holding thatwith care, too, considering that,

(44:22):
you know, you've lost.
That is a relationship that'sbeen lost.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.
It's still going to be hard to navigate.
Regardless of if I'm, like,uncomfortable with myself and I'm,
you know, fulfilled, it'sstill a relationship that's lost,
you know?
You know, thank you for saying that.
You're so right.
Like, it's so funny.
As I was talking about thisright now, I was like, oh, I feel
like.
Like, I have not been affectedby it actually in a long time.

(44:44):
And, like, right now I feel,like, a little bit affected by it.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, there is.
Like, I don't feel affected byit in a sense of, like, oh, oh, no.
Like, I don't have my.
Like, I'm like, oh, that's fine.
But I think in a way, I'm.
I'm sad.
I'm sad that, like, my daddoesn't get to see who I am.
Like, I'm sad that, like, Idon't get to, like, invite him to

(45:05):
come see my play in Minnesota.
Like, like, a play thatactually he might love because it's,
like, like, so African and sofunny and, like, you know what I
mean?
Like, like, yeah, it makes mea little bit sad that, like, in a
way, he's chosen to, like,approach our relationship that way
when, like, if my dad calledme today and was like, I want to

(45:27):
have a relationship with younow, I'd be like, yes, let's go,
let's go.
It would have.
Now it would have to be on my terms.
Because one thing about it,I'm not about to change for you,
but like, I, I'm very muchopen to that.
And I think it's sad thatlike, like a lot of Africans and
a lot of people in the worldjust like, allow that sort of thinking
to like, ruin relationships.
I'm like, yeah.

(45:48):
And, and the thing thatactually makes me sad for is like,
when I was back home in Ghana,like, I had, you know, little nephews
and nieces who are like, I'mlike, looking at them, I'm like,
baby, you're probably gay, youknow, and, and it made me sad for
them because I'm like, oh, butyou live here where I know it's going
to be so difficult for you tobe who you are.

(46:10):
Yeah.
And yeah, that, that.
Those are the moments that,like, it tugs at my heart.
It's like, I just want to.
Yeah.
And just.
Even the anti gay laws, youknow, back home, I know that Ghana
is dealing with theirs.
We dealt with ours in Nigeria.
We currently have three antigay laws right now.
And I know that Ghana had the,you know, so I just imagine living
under that kind of system andI'm trying to navigate that.

(46:33):
It's very difficult, you know.
Yeah.
I wanna, I wanna, you know,bring us back to something, you know,
lighter, please.
Something a bit lighter iswhere we're found, you know, at the
Penumbra Theater.
Right.
By the time this episode willprobably air, you probably will be
done with the show.
But also, like, such a good show.
I really enjoyed it.

(46:53):
Did like a short recap on my Instagram.
I think that it is.
I was just really.
It's very artistic.
So you have to watch intenselyto get it.
It doesn't try to be deep, butit is deep.
So you have to, you have tounderstand what the, what the themes
are critically.
But it's also very good.
And like I said, I like that,you know, it, it sets on the shores

(47:16):
of Ghana.
Right.
It's just.
So tell me about how did you find.
Where.
How did you find out about the play?
You know, what was the processlike for you?
Because you play.
I used to play multiplecharacters on that, on that play.
So you are bringing differentemotions and feelings to each character
to make them distinct and unique.
So just give me the tea aboutwhen we are found from start to finish.

(47:38):
Yes, yes, yes.
Oh, my God.
No, I.
Yeah.
I want to give you the.
All the tea.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I.
First of all, thank you onceagain for, like, coming to see the
play and for reaching out tome about how much it touched you.
Like, it really means the world.
Like, you are who I do it for.
Like, you.
Like, for queer Africans.

(47:59):
I'm just like.
Like that.
Yeah.
This.
This whole process has beensuch a whirlwind with how much it's,
like, moved me as an.
As an artist and as a human being.
Yeah.
So thank you for that.
I just wanted to say that outloud and.
Yeah, no, it's so funny I came.
It's so funny.
Donnie Arlov, who is theplaywright of.
We Call it a Fable.
We.
We're not calling this a play.

(48:19):
We call it a fable, which isalso very African way that.
Yeah, it is very African.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Donnie Arlov is an amazingplaywright, like, an incredible playwright
who's, like, been producedeverywhere, wrote this play, which
was commissioned by Penumbra,So it's been written specifically
for Penumbra and hopefully,you know, gets done everywhere else.

(48:39):
Wrote this play, asked hisfriend, who's also my friend, Lamar
Perry, to direct it, to directa workshop of it.
This was two years ago.
And Lamar picked up the phoneand called me and was like, I have
a role for you that I think isperfectly made for you.
And I was like, what is it?
And, like, he's.
He's like, well, it's stillbeing written.

(49:02):
He's like, it's still being written.
So really, I don't have ascript for you, but here's the theme
is that it's set in Ghana.
It's about two lovers who getseparated at sea, and one has to
go seeking the other.
And I was like.
I was like, I don't even needany convincing.
I'm there, I'm there, I'mthere, I'm there.
Literally.
And literally the next week,like, I was on a plane.
Plane to come to Minnesota todo a workshop of this.

(49:24):
Of this fable that we're inright now.
And when we sat down on thattable on the first day and we read
it out loud.
Actually, you know, initiallyI was playing the seeker, like, the
other role.
Yeah, that was interesting.
Yeah, I know that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, and I'll get into how,like, now I've come to play the other
one that I'm like, oh, wait, I actually.

(49:46):
I'm so glad.
Like, it's sort of switchedbecause, like.
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm just trying to imagine youas a seeker.
I was like, you could do it.
You're an actor.
You could do it.
Hey, I'm not gonna knock you.
You could do it.
You're an actor.
But I like, yeah, I feel likethe other roles were made for you.
No, they were made for me.
Yeah.
No, truly.
Yeah.
It's so funny, when we satdown, yeah.
I read the Secret, and.
But the thing that.

(50:07):
That hit me was that, like, itwas set in Ghana.
I was like, like, when do Iget to do plays set in Ghana?
Like.
Like, that's.
Yeah.
And to play, like.
And then.
And then on top of that, toplay a queer African Ghanaian, I
was like, whoa.
And Donye wrote this withoutknowing who I was.
So, like, that just was, like,divine intervention there.

(50:30):
And, like, Lamar, like,picking up the phone and going, you're
literally.
Was like, I cannot imagineanybody else doing this except for
you.
And I was like, okay.
Like, I just have to accept that.
That, like, this is meant forme, and.
And just, like, live fully in it.
So we.
Yeah, we did that workshop.
It was great.
Years later, Lamar was like,no, we're gonna do a production of

(50:52):
it.
Like, just keep your calendar open.
I was like, okay, sure, sure.
I didn't hear anything for,like, months.
And I was like, okay, I'mkeeping my calendar open, but, like,
is this gonna happen for real?
And then.
Yeah, it eventually, like,worked out, and.
And I once again got anothercall that it was like, like, now
we actually want you to playthe other part of it, which is that
all the roles that you see.
So, like, for people who don'tknow, like, you know, I play the

(51:12):
sun, the fish, the moon, andthe wind.
And then I also played this.
The founder found.
And.
And, yeah, and.
And.
And man, too, in, like, thelast part of it.
And.
And this process, this timehas been, like, life altering.
Like, I love playing theseeker, obviously.
Like, I think it's really cool.

(51:33):
But, like, this other part ofit was, like, tailor made for me.
Like, I have never once, like,been in something where I get to
play so many variations of whoI am as Anthony, who I am as a gig,
and Ian, man, Like, I get toplay the sexuality of myself.
I get to play, like, the funny.

(51:55):
The funny, cunning part of myself.
I get to play, like, theAfrican uncle part of myself.
You know, I get to play the,like, African auntie with the wind,
you know, part of myself.
Like, I get to.
To play all these versions ofmyself that, like, I've always dreamed
of playing.
And, and that I've.
And, and honestly, you know, Ihave to thank all my African aunts
and uncles and, and my momthat I grew up with because they've

(52:18):
given me so many characters.
That's real.
That is real.
Like, I forgot uncles andaunties will bring the dramatic.
Oh, they will bring that drama.
That will bring it.
So yeah, I'm here for it.
Truly.
Truly.
Somebody recently, somebodyasked me like, like, is it hard to
play?
And I was like, no, trust me,it is not hard to tap into these

(52:39):
people because I know them inmy bones.
I know them so well.
And I get to play myself like,I get to play myself in the found.
Like, like it, it, it's, ithas really sort of like changed my
life and changed the way Iwant to approach my artistry.
Yeah.
Be like capable of doing allthese things, coming all these variations

(53:02):
and like I get to reallystretch myself when I'm up in this
like hour and five minute showand just all these people and get
to.
And honestly ended.
The biggest part of it for meis I get to make people laugh.
Yes, you do.
You definitely do.
Definitely.
I love to make people laughand so like getting to do it in this

(53:24):
way is, it's a joy.
So yeah, that's how theprocess has gotten to be.
Yeah.
What are they gonna miss fromthe play?
Once you're like, once you'reall rap, what are they gonna miss?
And what do you want the nexttheater or producer actor who's gonna
make the play?
What do you want them to takeaway or know from doing it?
Oh, that's a great question.

(53:44):
It's a great question.
Yeah.
Well, first of all, I hope I'mthe only one doing better.
Be me.
Oh, they know.
We've had conversations.
But yeah, yeah, I'm gonna, I'mgonna miss, I'm gonna miss being
able to play a very, veryvariations of myself.

(54:05):
I'm gonna, I'm really gonnamiss, I'm gonna miss like the sexuality
of it.
I'm gonna miss the tailormadeness of this.
Like I get up on this day.
It's so funny.
Actually every, every nightright before I go up.
Because also the, the fablestarts with a dance and that dance
is so hard, it is not easy.
And so every night I have tobe like, okay, here we go, here we

(54:27):
go.
But I'm actually even going tomiss that because like, in a way
I feel like I get shot out ofa cannon every night in a way that
like gets my senses wired.
A way that like I don't alwaysget to play in everything that I
do.
Yeah.
And so I'm going to miss allthose things and I would say.
And I'm going to miss thepeople here.

(54:49):
I'm going to miss the people.
I'm going to miss Haylin,like, working with Haylen.
I'm going to miss just, youknow, the people who have been.
Who have touched this play andI made it.
Have made it.
Yeah.
To answer your secondquestion, yeah.
The thing that I'd say forpeople who get to produce this and
get to make this, because Ireally do hope it gets, like, get
made everywhere because itneeds to is.

(55:09):
Is remember that at the centerof this, that this fable is about
being queer, being African,being black.
Like, those three things andmore have to be center of the storytelling
of this.
Like, you can't have theAfricanness in this play without
having the queerness.
Like, you can't have the painof this play without having the laughter

(55:32):
of this play.
Because one thing that's.
I find as a queer Africans, isthat, like, we can laugh.
We can laugh like crazy andthen we can cry when.
When we.
When we just need to let it out.
And like, I just don't.
I don't ever want people toforget that sort of like, funniness
of this thing that comes frombeing a true queer, African, black

(55:54):
person in this world.
Because pain is also our laughter.
It's also our strength.
It's also our, like, our sex.
Our sexiness.
We're sexy because there's somuch pain.
You know, that's real.
That is real.
That is real.
You know, before we.
Before we, you know, wrap upthis episode, I want to do a quick,
like, Anthony trivia rapidfire situation.

(56:16):
I saw that you went to CowboyCarter in la.
You know, I can tell that youare a Beyonce fan.
You're in the beehive.
So give me, like, what I like.
Your top three Beyonce songs.
That is so.
Why would you do this to me?
We gotta know what people wantto know.
The people want to know.
People want to know.
Oh, my God.
I'm.
Okay.
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

(56:36):
I mean, I'm just gonna prefacethis by saying these are not my.
These are not my only threeBeyonce Ritz, because it really.
The gamut runs deep.
But I would say one of myabsolute favorites is diva.
Okay.
Diva down.
Like, and I think part of itis because I recently I caught with
Carter.
I was this close to Beyonce.

(56:57):
Like, okay, he was rightthere, which was crazy.
And she performed Diva, like,right in, like, in the Middle of
the stage, like, where I was,and it blew my mind.
Okay.
It took me and I always knewthat was one of my favorite songs,
but all of a sudden I waslike, this might be one of my favorite
songs of all time.
Like, it really does it for me.
She ain't no diva.

(57:19):
Just like.
Did she point at you?
I wish she did.
Oh, that would have been everything.
That would have been everything.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I'll say diva.
I love diva.
Okay.
I will also say one of myother favorites is Freecam Dress.
Okay, That's a good one.
Yeah, I love Freak.

(57:41):
I mean, I'm just like.
When I'm getting ready and Iput on Freaka, I'm just like, oh,
my God.
I just.
It'd be getting me.
Right.
So I would say freak up.
And also these change overtime, obviously, you know?
And then honestly, I have tosay Alien Superstar.
I say Alien Superstar because I.
I also thought about.

(58:01):
Let's talk about Blow.
Blow is also one of my.
God, I love her, but aliensare so hard because it's like the
most recent, you know?
And like, that song, I mean,like, I remember when she.
The first time I heard I'm oneof one.
I'm number one.
I'm the only one.
Okay.
She's.
She sees me and I see her.
Got it?
Yeah, got it.

(58:23):
So, yeah, I will play thatevery time I need, like, a little.
A little something.
A little push.
Okay.
Yeah.
And also I'll say one more.
I'll say one more recently.
Two Hands to Heaven.
I love Two Hands to Heaven.
I love to handsome as to heaven.
I love some.
Okay, cool, cool.
Who I want to collaborate with.

(58:44):
There's always been one.
Viola Davis.
Okay.
I.
I love that woman down.
I love that woman down.
Like, I feel like she shouldplay my mother in a movie.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, I love Viola Davis.
Yeah, so her.
Definitely.
And Michaela Cole.
Okay.
Yes.
Is she from Ghana?

(59:04):
She is.
Yeah.
I.
I think I kind of knew that,honestly, I was going to front.
Okay.
Yes.
I love her.
I love her storytelling.
It's pretty.
It's pretty unique.
It's.
Yeah, I mean, I just.
I love her.
Like, I just.
Just.
There's so much about her, herstorytelling that, like, hits me

(59:25):
and, like, I want to work withher both as a creator, as an actor,
like, in.
In just all sorts of things.
So, like, yeah, I would sayMichaela Cole.
I'll say Viola Davis.
Yeah, I'll say those two.
Okay, cool, cool, cool.
What is the piece of art thathas Changed your life right now.
It could be a song, it couldbe a movie, it could be a play, it
could be a musical, it couldbe anything.

(59:45):
It could be a painting.
Oh, a piece of art that haschanged my life.
Yeah, this is gonna, you'regonna be like, duh.
But seeing Beyonce again, andI saw her for Renaissance.
Renaissance.
Okay, you know what?
Cabo Carter, obviously,because I recently saw it.
I made Chainbox.
Changed my life.

(01:00:06):
That tour.
I saw it twice in LA becauseI, I, I always knew Beyonce as like,
and this was my first time here.
She's like a superstar, we alllove her.
But I saw a storyteller in herduring Renaissance.
Then I was like, oh, this isthe kind of storyteller I need to
be.
Just like, the full bodied,like, excellence, like drive, like

(01:00:31):
joy, and like, paint, like,all of it.
Like, when she sings ChurchGirl, like, it really hits me in
a way.
So I would say, honestly,yeah, Renaissance was like, like,
it's something that I recentlysaw and experienced that, like, I.
Yeah.
Still think about it till this day.
Okay, what is your guilty pleasure?
Well, no, let me be pg.

(01:00:52):
I am screaming.
My first thought was now very pg.
So this is a safe space.
I mean, you know, I just love it.
I love being.
I'll say I love touch.
Okay, I love touch.
I love touch.
But I also love, like, I lovetouch and all sorts of stuff.
Honestly, to be more pg, Ilove, like, like food.
I just love food.
I love food.

(01:01:12):
Like, I love, like, cooking.
I love, I love, like, eatinglike a, a peanut butter cup from
Trader Joe's.
I got those, like, dark littlepeanut butter cups.
The.
If it's on the table, I'meating them.
Plantain chips, eating them,like, you know, just all sorts of
things.
But I'll say touch in general.
Okay, cool.
And since you mentioned food,I want to just ask this, just random.

(01:01:35):
Ghana jollof or Nigerian jollof?
Now you know the answer to that.
Yes.
Nigerian jala.
Excuse me.
You know what's funny?
Last time I was in la, I don'tknow where I was going to, someone
took me in the ride.
Like, my Uber driver was from Ghana.
And she was going on and onabout how our jollof wasn't it how

(01:01:58):
gan Jolof was the best.
And then she pulled up aInstagram video, like, this is how
we make our gan jollof.
I'm like, this is how we alsomake our jollof literally the same.
It's not that deep.
I'm like, literally this same thing.
Yeah, that's so funny.
We literally use the same ingredients.
Yeah.
They're like.
But we, you know, we willblend it and we will.

(01:02:18):
You know, I'm just like, Iguess, you know, it's so funny that,
like, I guess.
I guess it was a whole.
It was.
It was like a.
You know, la, you know, ridesare long because of traffic.
It was like a 25 minute rideof, you know, but she was, you know,
she's watching.
I love you.
You have, you had a great time.

(01:02:39):
You had a great, great.
You know, and she was like,oh, they're not like African restaurants
in la.
That.
They're not a lot of Africanrestaurants in LA for her to speak
from.
Like, really good ones.
Yeah, yeah, it was very interesting.
Yeah.
You know, funny.
Yeah.
Funny enough, there are a lotof Nigerian restaurants in la.
Oh, really?
A lot.
A lot.
Most.

(01:02:59):
Most of the Africanrestaurants in LA are Nigerian.
Yeah.
Shout out to the Nigerians.
Yeah.
Y' all do one thing about it.
Y' all do it.
Y' all do it big.
Big.
Yes, we do do it big.
Not always better, but you doit big.
It's the shade for me.
Before we.
Before we wrap this up, I wantto just ask this final question.

(01:03:19):
Like, what do you want, like,your legacy to be as Anthony the
storyteller?
Oh, what about my legacy?
I feel like I'm too young tobe my only legacy.
But we're never too young.
We're never too young.
It's kind of like, you know, Ifeel like, like, you know, in the
words of Beyonce, you know, Iwas here, like, you know, when, you
know, after 10, after.

(01:03:41):
Not 10, maybe like 20, 30years from now.
Because you could even have.
You could be a league, youcould be a living legend who has
a legacy and still be alive,you know?
And so what do you want peopleto remember you for and remember
you by?
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
Thank you for, for puttingthat into context.
Yeah, yeah.
And one thing about it, like,I do want to be a living legend.
Like, I want, like, I wantpeople to know my name and go, this

(01:04:03):
is the impact that.
That Anthony Adu has on me.
Like.
Yeah, I'm just gonna say thatfirst of all.
Yeah.
And I'll say.
I'll say the impact that Iwant to have, the legacy I want to
have, is to show the.
To show the world, but really,most, most more specifically, young
African gay boys and lesbiangirls and trans girls that they can

(01:04:26):
fully be who they are.
They can fully be who they are.
And they can.
They can live a full life.
Not in spite of who they are,but because of who they are.
Like, my story so far is onewhere I'm like, there are many times
where life could have just cutme down and I could not have risen
back up, but I found myselfrising back every time.

(01:04:50):
I'm like, I ain't going nowhere.
And so, like, I.
The legacy I want to leave isthat, like, I want to show the world
that, like, you can be gay andblack and African and still fucking
make a life out of your life.
Life is so short and it's solong that, like, why allow other
people, the world, to tell youwhat you can and cannot do?

(01:05:14):
Fuck that.
You know?
So.
So, yeah, like, I want mystorytelling to be one that.
That encourages people and,like, pushes people to, like, specifically
queer African people to fullybe who they are and to.
And to live a full lifebecause of who they are.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's real.

(01:05:36):
Thank you so much.
That was very profound.
And just thank you.
Thank you for the work thatyou're doing, for showing up in spaces,
for being your authentic self,and for, you know, wanting to elevate
our stories and tell our stories.
It is very appreciated.
And I would, you know, putsome links in the description so
folks can connect with you,connect with your work and see what

(01:05:57):
you're doing.
Probably drop your Instagramalso so folks can follow and everything.
But thank you, Anthony.
This is a great conversation.
Thank you.
Love this conversation.
And thanks, y' all, for tuningin till the next episode of the podcast
Odejuma.