Harry Waters Jr. on Art, Identity, and Power of Community

In one of our most heartfelt conversations yet, Harry speaks with influential artist and educator Harry Waters Jr., who reflects on a life shaped by purpose, vulnerability, and community. From his role in the cult classic, Back to the Future, to his groundbreaking work in theater and academia, Harry Waters Jr. shares stories that explore the intersections of Blackness, queerness, grief, joy, and the arts.

We discuss the impact of the AIDS crisis, the evolution of LGBTQ+ spaces, and the transformative power of storytelling to foster connection and care. With tenderness and humor, Harry Waters Jr. speaks about creating spaces like Harry’s Hangout, where Black queer men can gather, heal, and celebrate one another. This conversation serves as a moving tribute to resilience, intimacy, and the freedom that comes when we live our stories out loud.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hi, my name is Harry, andwelcome to Odejuma.
Odejuma recognizes the magicof storytelling.
From personal experiences tostories of adventure, from tales
of resilience to finding joyin the simple things, this story
seeks to inspire, entertain,and educate because there is power
in the stories of everydaypeople, and these stories are worth

(00:22):
telling.
Hey, y'.
All, how's it going?
Welcome to another episode of odej.
And I am so excited about myguest today.
He is an icon and a legend,and I'm super honored to be speaking

(00:49):
with him.
And we also shared.
We also share the same firstname, too, so that's pretty cool.
So I'm here with Harry Waters,Jr. How are you, Harry?
Good morning, good afternoon,good day.
I'm really quite good.
Always happy to talk toanother Harry.
I am very excited to get tospeak to you also.
Also, because I just feel likeyou have such a light with you, like

(01:12):
anybody that has met.
You can testify.
Can testify to the fact thatyou're just very warm and very open
and very giving.
I just like that.
We.
We sort of went through aprocess with some friends last, oh,
fourth of July, so we werehaving an interdependence day, meaning,
like, how are we taking careof each other?

(01:34):
And one of the things,exercise they asked everyone to do
was to put on a piece of paperwhat you think your purpose is, and
just write it down.
And then they gave us thesestrings, and we had to put that around
our neck.
So then we were wearing thepurpose that we put ourselves into
for other people to see.

(01:55):
And mine was to help peoplebecome more human with each other.
Because to me, that's one ofthe challenges that we do have, is
because we can be sodisconnected from each other that
we just need to get back tothat basic one of actually seeing,
feeling, breathing with eachother as opposed to trying to beat

(02:15):
each other or overcompensateor dismiss or snap off, you know,
how do we actually see theother person and also let them see
you, which is even harder.
You see, we just started.
I already dropped in the gems.
And I'm also very curious now,since we're already there.
Like, are there experiencesthat you've had in your life that

(02:39):
has made you realize that thisis what you think your purpose is
right now?
I would have to say I'm reallyfortunate because it really came.
It really has come out thatway in various.
I want to go in various times,decades, throughout the times that
I've been on the planet.
And there was a wonderfulmoment that I always remember when

(02:59):
I was in LA in.
So it had to be in the midlate 80s.
And I was asked.
I was doing a show.
I'm gonna drop a few nameshere now.
Okay, I'll just let that dropit all.
I was doing an episode of 227with Marla Gibbs and Hal Williams

(03:20):
and Regina King, who was a kid then.
And then Marla also had aschool and she was inviting people
to come teach a class.
And I had never officiallycreated a class before, but when
I did it, what I found is thatI love teaching and I love encouraging

(03:42):
especially young people totell their story, because when they
get the permission to telltheir story, then all of a sudden
it opens them up to be morecreative and vulnerable with other
people that are in that same group.
So it's that.
That was one of the thingsthat let me know that, wow, I really
like this.

(04:03):
And you can see a difference.
You can see a difference inthe world that.
That really happens.
The other thing that I have tosay that I witnessed, which made
me decide side this.
This latest path that I wason, was I was doing a play in San
Francisco and Los Angeles.
And it was about.

(04:23):
It was called the FirstPicture show.
And it was about the women whowere filmmakers in the silent era,
because there were quite anumber of women who were filmmakers,
but who didn't get notornoted, but they still had many, many
films produced.
And the director of the playtreated these women horribly.
And these are.
There was like eight olderwomen that were doing this.

(04:45):
And I was one of, you know,sort of.
I was part of the cast.
I was the husband of one of them.
I played a black filmmakerlike Michaux, who was one of the
black filmmakers.
I was playing him in a nursing home.
But the way that he treatedthe director, treated these women
just let me know that I wouldn't.
I don't ever want that tohappen for anybody.

(05:06):
And then out of the blue, in2000, I got accepted in the MFA directing
program at the University ofWisconsin, Madison.
And it was there that Ilearned more about history of directing
and different styles and things.
But it also allowed me topractice what I was trying to preach,

(05:27):
which is, how do you respecteverybody with where they are and
then make them better?
Basically give them anopportunity to make something else
happen for themselves.
And I love that.
It was.
It was a discomfort situationthat I got to make into a change

(05:48):
situation for myself.
And I always sort of feel thatway about directing when I'm direct,
when I'm acting, it's adifferent Story, I'm a little crazy,
but when I'm directing, Ireally like taking care of all the
bodies, you know, not just theactors, but the crew and the designers
and ultimately the audience.
How are we taking care of each other?

(06:09):
And that was a long way aroundfor one of the answers, and I hope
that's okay.
No, no, it is really okay.
And I think that we are in a.
In desperate need of careright now in the world.
Like, we need to care for each other.
And one of the things that,you know, when I was starting the
podcast, I was thinking aboutwas how when we understand each other

(06:31):
a little bit better, we cancare for each other a little bit
better.
You know, when, you know, mystory, we can.
We can build community fromthat because we are much more alike
than we are different.
The world would like us tobelieve that we are, you know, different
people because we havedifferent experiences.
We were raised in differentways, but we are much more alike
than, you know, we realize.

(06:51):
And so you talking about this.
So I must say I have aquestion for you about that, because
we say that we're more alikethan we are different.
So we're the only ones saying that.
Are the other people whoconsider us different, are they saying,

(07:14):
how do we.
How does someone get that intotheir consciousness or conversation?
That is a good question.
And I feel like, because.
So a lot of my work initiallystarted from.
I used to be a journalist.
I would say I'm still ajournalist, right?
Yes.

(07:35):
But I think that when Istarted doing media advocacy for,
like, LGBT issues, I think oneof the things that was very pertinent
was, especially in a countrylike Nigeria that is very, you know,
homophobic in courts, that hasanti gay love and all these things,
realizing the humanity and thefolks who have a limited understanding

(07:55):
of what sexuality and genderexpansiveness is and reaching, I'm
reaching to that, you know,And I think that is the thing that
draws us in.
We are all in the worldtogether, trying to make it, trying
to pay our bills, trying topay our rent, trying to just love
on our families, love when ourloved ones have a good time and just
be.

(08:15):
And I think that that issomething that connects us.
That's a very genuine humanexperience that we're all having.
Right.
And I think that a lot oftimes we see each other as, you know,
so different.
So I'm trying to find a wordthat is that we hit the nail on the
head.
But, like, I think that theother folks who may not have that

(08:37):
opinion of who we are, of meand you are blinded by the bigotry
that they have been raised on.
Right.
And so, yes, even though, youknow, we are very much alike.
Right.
You have issues.
You.
You.
You get into petty argumentswith your parents also, or you get
into petty arguments with yourfriends, or, you know, you have a

(09:00):
desire to see a much more aworld that is, you know, you're proud
of living for your children.
You know, just talking off thec. I like you have the same desire.
You might not feel that waybecause of.
You've been blinded by thebigotry that you were raised on.
You know what I'm saying?
I think that's why peopledon't really feel that way.

(09:23):
Yeah.
I think sometimes we are.
We're not blinded by something specific.
We're blinded because we don't know.
It's like, if you don't knowthe other person, of course, you're.
Why would you.
What other opinion can youmake except that I don't know them,
so they must be different.
That also happens within ourown communities.
It happens within, you know, agroup of people that are coming together

(09:44):
for the first time.
There becomes this judgmentabout how different they are across
the room or how we want to belike this group that's over here
or how important am I, or theother side of that is and what am
I doing here?
So there's.
That to me, that's part of thehuman struggle, is finding the way

(10:04):
of actually connecting acrossthe room or across.
Across screens, you know, andthen what.
What is the desire of thosewho want to make this change in the
world, like the work thatyou're doing, as opposed to.
Those are like, in the worldto sow dissension.

(10:25):
I mean, they want to just makeit important that everything.
We are so far apart, we are so different.
We don't want to be like them.
You know, we're.
We're.
We're part of many thems that,you know, happens in cultures around
the world.
Cultures around the world.
I just have a new.
One of my new good friends isfrom Burundi and cannot talk about

(10:49):
their sexual identity.
Just.
It's not.
Not.
You can't even be mentionedbecause it will reflect on the family,
on the neighborhood, onsiblings, on them also, whether they're
there or not.
So there's all those differentidentities that we have that we kind
of wish there was a way ofeliminating that judgment.
Because I think judgment isone of the things that really keeps

(11:11):
us separated as well.
Keep.
Sometimes it keeps usseparated from ourselves because
you want.
Not.
Probably not you.
Because you're so wellattended and culturally and socially
and spiritually healthy thatthere's some of us who had to struggle
through to get to be as wiseand grounded as you are.

(11:33):
Perhaps it was all of yournatural cultures and those of us
that are trying to discovercultures here.
We don't have, yes, wesometimes don't have a system of
how to, of how to pulljudgments back because we have more
of the practice of judgingthan the practices of how do I not

(11:55):
judge.
I have been trying to be asconscious as I can with, especially
during these times, thesetimes even before the pandemic of
how do you find a space foryourself to be in suspension about
judgment as opposed to makingthe judgment, Then you have to pull

(12:15):
it back, but your judgment'salready there.
So this is the practice thatI'm working on.
It's like, I don't want to goin with judgment.
I know I have biases.
I mean, it's something thatyou being a journalist also, you
know that there is a bias thatyou bring.
Well, there's also a bias Ibring into a room of people.
You know, I bring my own biasof like one thing.

(12:35):
Are they judging me?
Because, you know, I havethree things.
I'm old, black and gay.
So it's like, okay, we'regoing to judge all those things.
Oh, and you're an artist.
Oh, we got to judge that too.
You know, there's, there's somany things I feel that they're judging
me about.
As opposed to people likeyourself that can just enter a room
and be fully themselves.
No, Harry, I should say I'veonly witnessed that wonderful part

(13:00):
of you when you can come inand you're so blow, you're so gloriously
glowing when you enter a spacethat of course we're all going to
want to be on your podcastbecause the energy that you're pulling
is non judgmental, but it alsomakes us feel comfortable.
But thank you, Harry.
But I feel like we've all hadto work through and get to where

(13:21):
we are.
Especially as like you said,if you're black and you're gay, that
is something that you'reconstantly working on and improving
on.
This is really such, I mean,we just started and we went deep
right in, you know, myquestions be damned.
But I'm gonna pull us right questions.
Okay, sorry.
I, I, I'm just curious about,you know, where did it, where did

(13:43):
it all begin for you?
This person who is artisticand who is, who has made a mark in
the world, at what point didyou realize that art, that the arts.
Are you there?
The arts are what I know.
And I've also known that I wasgoing to be in the arts since I was

(14:05):
in first grade and I wasliterally at the Lutheran School
in Denver, Colorado, and wewere doing this play and I was a
milkweed.
I was one of the head milkweeds.
And I discovered that you canchange how people think by what you
say in front of them orwhether it's on stage or if it's

(14:26):
a minute or if it's a sermon,is that you can affect how people
think.
And I went, oh my God.
So that's kind of like whatperformance is.
And so I knew that moment thatI wanted to be an actor.
I also knew in that moment Ihad to keep it a secret because you
can't be this young black kidthat's from Denver, Colorado, who's
gonna be an actor and yourfamily works for the post office

(14:49):
and your mom's a live at, stayat home mom who ends up working for
the state of Colorado.
And.
But it was not about any ofthat thing in our family line.
So you, you always have this,this reality of, especially in black
families here is you have choices.
Post office, teacher, ifyou're really smart, lawyer or doctor

(15:13):
or the service, you know, go,you know, enlist in the air force,
Marines, army, whatever.
And I didn't want to do any of those.
And I knew it.
But I also, at the same time,this is why all my stuff is kind
of locked together.
I knew that I liked boys and girls.
That's what I was doing at the time.
It's like I'm really, I wasreally clear.

(15:33):
I like boys and girls.
I can cry over this boy.
I can laugh at this girl.
I can laugh at this boy.
I can cry with that girl.
And it has to be a secret.
So I came up in a time when,which is different than the times
that you, that the current,current youth are going through,
where there was no space fortelling your story out loud.

(15:57):
We could tell our stories toeach other, but then it was also,
who do you tell that story to?
So that, that, that was thebeginning of my, I, I, and I look
at it as, that's how I becamea better actor because I learned
how to perform.
I had to perform straight guy.
I had to perform straight kidin Lutheran church.

(16:18):
I had to perform straightblack kid in working with my, with
parents, sororities andfraternities, you know, so there
was.
And, but also keeping all ofmy, you know, all the craziness back
here in the back.
Oh, move it, move back.
Don't let that come up.
It's like, ah, no, no.

(16:39):
Until I learned how to let itcome up in secret, you know, in other
little places.
And then I could cover it upwhile it disappeared again.
And you all, all know whatthat means.
Yeah.
Yeah.
How long, how long were youdoing that for?
All of school up until I wasin 10th grade and I didn't come out

(17:02):
in 10th grade.
I was in a situation where Ihad access to lots of male bodies
because I was in a boarding school.
I was one of the kids invitedto an all boys boarding school.
And I don't know if I shouldtell it because they probably already
know anyway.

(17:23):
I didn't feel uncomfortableabout what I wanted, you know, just
like, yeah, well it's here andcertain people, you know, you could
quote, play with and it was okay.
So, so that moving, all ofthat part.
And then when I went tocollege in New Jersey at Princeton,

(17:45):
it was okay because Idiscovered a commute I didn't know.
I had no, I had, I had noreferences, I had no icons.
I was reading James Baldwin.
Yes, of course, you know, I'mreading poets and.
But there were no people,there were no bodies that I knew
that were like mine.
I remember, I do rememberonce, as I'm even talking to you,

(18:06):
going to a gay bar.
Oh my God.
My best friend who wasstraight and Chicano would say, okay,
I'll go with you.
So we went there.
I was like stunned.
It was like so beautiful.
And there was somebody who wasone of my brother's friends.
So I had to like, okay, wehave to kind of stay here.

(18:29):
What year was that?
If you don't mind sharing.
So, God, it's like, you'rejust really going to date me, aren't
you?
You really want to.
So it had to be.
So it had to be 69 or 70because I went before because they
in Denver, they had what youcall three, two beers.

(18:50):
So so you could go to thesecurtain bars and they had the watered
down beer so you could gothere when you were 16 or 17.
And so me and my buddy Paulwould go and drink three, two beer
and then go to Bob's Big boy.
Pee on somebody's lawn.
Was also so the gay bar wouldallow you to come in.
You know, it wasn't, but youknow, it was.

(19:11):
Oh my God, there's men dancingwith you.
Oh my God.
Drag queens.
What?
Oh my God, I love this.
This is where I should meet.
But I had to Leave town.
So when I went to New Jersey,I was out, which was like, oh, wait,
another, another, another.
Another memory is coming back.
This is what your show does,doesn't it kind of like peaks things?

(19:32):
I love that.
Before I graduated, someone in my.
One of my mother's friends,family, somebody said they saw me
at a gay bar.
And my father asked me, so.
So who leads when you dance?

(19:52):
But I go, no one.
You just dance.
So then, of course, that waslike the.
The story was.
I was just.
It was just.
We were trying to hang out.
We didn't.
You know, it's not.
We're not doing anything.
We're just being there.
So I escaped there, went toPrinceton, fell in love with this
Puerto Rican boy, which let meknow that it was possible to have

(20:16):
love, because I did not knowit was possible to be, like, in love
and be queer, as we would say,in being gay.
I just.
It was just.
It was a shock to me.
And so because it was thefirst time of being in love, I. I,
of course, because I tend tooverthink things because I was that
little brainiac kid, is that Iwanted to try and figure out why

(20:38):
was I doing this.
And I just couldn't accept theother part of my brain just wanted
to be with them, and I wantedto do everything that they did, no
matter what it was.
Even if they changed theirmind, it didn't matter.
I'll go change my mind as well.
And that was also a time whenI learned about myself.

(20:59):
Because if you were to ask mewhat my values are, I would say whatever
yours are, because I didn'ttrust that my values were any good,
because look what I was doing.
Oh, my God, I'm a homosexual.
Oh, my God.
So my values must be horrible.
So if I'm with you, you know,even if you.

(21:20):
It became later if you aregay, but if you're the person that
I'm working with, if you'rethe person I'm living with, whatever
your values are for the time,it's like, okay, I can do that.
I can take those in.
So I had years of not knowingwhat I valued, but I was really good

(21:40):
at making myself believe thevalues that you had were the ones
that I had.
And that became how I lived.
It didn't feel wrong becauseit was just what I was doing.
And I really wanted to figureout what was different, but I didn't
know what was differentbecause it was so important to be

(22:05):
liked or to be in a group orsomething and be okay so that I wasn't
I didn't know what me.
I didn't know what me was.
Which is why acting workedreally well, because I can be another
character.
I can totally take on somebody else.
And that felt really.
That.
That was like, my relief andmy release.

(22:25):
So the arts community was.
You got to.
You got to perform differently.
Got to perform differently.
Okay, that was around the world.
But would you say.
Would you say that?
Because I. I believe.
I want to believe that youfound yourself some.
I'm gonna guess I'm like,that's next.
Was it.
Was it the arts that led youto finding yourself, even though

(22:48):
you were using it to escape?
More or less.
Because we're talking about atime in.
In the 70s when there was whatthey now called the black arts movement.
But it was mainly.
There were a lot of blackartists that were just making shit
all over town.

(23:08):
They were doing plays in basements.
They were doing plays intheaters that didn't have any heat.
They were doing plays indressing rooms, and there were writers
that were just trying out stuff.
There were directors and.
And we all were supportingeach other in these amazing ways.
So I got to be in a lot ofcreative environments, but no one

(23:32):
said anything about my sexuality.
You know, they may have.
They may have said somethingwhen I wasn't there, but I definitely
felt welcome because what Iwas doing all the time was.
I'm trying to offer what Ihave creatively to support you.
Like, if I'm working in acrew, if I'm on a crew helping to
hang lights or make costumes,like, that's what I'm going to do.

(23:54):
I'm going to do that, makesure that it works.
I was a stage manager at onepoint because that helps run the
show, and you're in charge ofmaking sure that it doesn't fall
apart.
And I really enjoyed that.
But I found I really lovedacting because it allowed me to also
experience other actors whowere really good.

(24:15):
I looked at it every time Iwas acting.
I was looking to gainsomething from these other artists
that I didn't have.
So.
And.
And I didn't.
I never felt that I knew moreor that I was a better actor.
It's like, I just.
I want to be a better actor,but it's because of the experiences
that I'm having with other artists.
And the artists, especially atthat time, were so willing to.

(24:38):
To ex.
To just give it to you.
I mean, that.
That was what their spirit was.
It's like, you wanted, come on in.
And we.
And it was.
And there was a spectrum andThere was a gay spectrum that I also
got to do a lot of performanceand readings and creating pieces
with.
That was a large part of mybeing able to be in New York.

(24:59):
And there was also a verylarge black gay community that I
didn't have.
And all of a sudden it's like,oh, my God, this is great.
Look, there's like, black gaymen everywhere.
Which is why I'm trying to doHarry's hangout again, the sidebar.
But what happened was, evenduring this time is all of a sudden,

(25:21):
we became the family.
So it gave me more opportunityto find out what I wanted or who
I was, I should say who I was now.
I was a. I was a bit of a skank.
Yeah, it was.
It was the 70s.
It was New York.
The 70s.
It was New York, baby.
But also the.

(25:41):
I was tell.
I was telling this to anotheryoung friend of mine.
It was before aids.
It was.
So the world was working a lotdifferently, and we were.
We were different with each other.
There was no expectation thatthere would be marriage and kids
and, you know, you could do every.
You know, you could walkwildly down the street with your
rainbow colors.

(26:01):
It's like that was not anoption, you know, and maybe not that
really wanted to.
We just didn't because wecreated our own cocoon.
I mean, that sense.
I never got beat up.
I got called faggot, you know,quite often, but I never got beat
up and stomped in the streets.

(26:22):
Well, also, I was in New York.
So you're keeping an awarenessaround yourself all the time.
You know, there.
There.
There are moments that.
And things that happen whereI, you know, I should be at least
sliced up or have holes in my body.
But I. I don't.
I don't at that time.
But then the other part of.
And I forgot what our topic was.

(26:43):
We were talking about here.
Right now, you're refiningyourself right through the.
Through the arts, but nowyou're integrated.
You've been talking about whatit was like to be gay in New York
before aids, before aids.
But also most of the people Iwas with were people that were dancers
or singers or writers.

(27:06):
And so that was.
That was.
That was the pot that we were in.
It wasn't people that wereworking, you know, in the post office.
It wasn't people that hadregular jobs.
It was all of us that weretrying to have a career.
You know, we were reallytrying to make a career in the arts.
And.
And I think the more that wewere in it together, it just reinforced

(27:26):
our desires to work harder Oneof the things that I was so appreciative
of in our time is that wewould also do things to take care
of each other, like make food,you know, like help people pay the
rent if that's what needed to happen.
Like hook people up.
That's what needed to happen.
All of those things were likejust a part of what we did.

(27:49):
Did.
There was many, many, I don'tsay many, but quite a number of parties
that we had that were raisingmoney for somebody or we just needed
to have a party because thingswere crazy.
You make up lots of food, youinvite people over.
There was usually a littleweed, you know, that was there, and,
and there was usually somebodyin the back room that's, you know,

(28:10):
doing their thing and thenthey come out and maybe a couple
other people go in the back.
Because we created a kind ofapartment that was big enough, obviously
you could afford a bigapartment in New York back then that,
that everybody was welcome tocome with whatever they wanted to
come with, you know, and nobody.

(28:30):
And if anybody had anyquestions, well, then I guess you're
going to leave becauseeverybody else is here because they
want to be here.
And that let me feel a lotbetter because I was helping or being
a part of this community ofpeople and allowed us, allowed us

(28:51):
to be happy.
You know, that I think aboutit, it's like that's one of the ways
we were holding on to ourhappiness because I was, I was really
lucky.
You know, I got lots of work.
I. I got to work as an actordoing a lot of commercials.
So I made good enough money incommercials that I was able to help
out lots of my folks.

(29:13):
And I'm, you know, we'll neverforget that as a part of it.
And then there was a switch toanother time in the world, I have
to say.
I'll put it, I'll put it like that.
Yeah, the arts were where werelike the driving force.
Now I have a curiosity aboutwhat, what, what it was like when,

(29:33):
you know, the virus was firstdiscovered during the eighth crisis,
and how that shift affectednot just the community, but you.
Because you just described acommunity of people who loved on
each other, who were buildinga very healthy communal space in
big new, big city New York.

(29:56):
So what was that shift likeand how did that affect you?
Well, it hit in 79, especiallybig in the black gay theater community
because all of a sudden a lotof the dancers were getting sick
and they were getting these lesions.
Well, this is a little, alittle later, but at the beginning

(30:16):
of it is that someone that youhad sex with.
A month later, they were gone.
And nobody knew what it was atthe time.
They were calling it gerd, youknow, the gay.
The gay.
The gay disease.
But what was also happening isthat the white boys had the resources

(30:37):
because they had money, butthe black.
The black folks didn't haveany money.
So we had each other.
So we had to figure out how totake care of each other.
Also, because most of us weredistant from our families.
Because part of the reasonthat you were here is because you
got to get out of there,because it didn't feel safe or you
didn't feel wanted, whatever.
But when people began to getsick, like, it went so fast that

(31:03):
we found ourselves.
You were always either in ahospital or you're taking care of
somebody, or you're at a memorial.
And it became almost debilitating.
And also because I have one ofthose syndromes that they call them,
I have, you know, survivor's guilt.
Because, yes, I know I had sexwith all of these people at some

(31:25):
point, but I never got.
I was never HIV positive forever.
And so I kept.
It was one of those.
I kept waiting because, youknow, I slept with them.
I know I slept with him, andnow they're gone.
There were people years laterthat then developed it, so there
were different layers of it.
And I had a lover at the time,and miles.

(31:47):
And so it wasn't necessarilyduring the whole AIDS epidemic, because
we didn't know it was an epidemic.
We just knew it was killing people.
You know, it was just like itwas killing people in New York City
and in San Francisco.
So that was what.
Like this, just about thesetwo communities.
And then I moved to la, andthen there were friends that I had

(32:08):
there that were suddenly sickin LA too.
So there was this kind of fearabout how you had to move in the
world because if you acted toogay, people were not going to hire
you because they figured you were.
You have aids.
So it was that intense about.
Especially in the business, inthe theater world, which is mostly,

(32:32):
you know, gay men, lesbiansrun, lesbians are building the shit.
But people that were hiring,like, for TV and film, even commercials,
they were watching how youheld yourself, how you spoke.
And so you would have to.
For me, it was like I found myway so that I could keep working,

(32:55):
because I created a characterwhich was the all American black
guy next door, you know, thatwas, I can be your friend, but I
wasn't intimidating and Iwasn't too flamboyant, you know,
so there's there's anotherenergy that was happening with a
lot of people that were reallybrilliant, but also, even as actors,
not that they were always gay act.

(33:15):
You know, they wouldn't alwaysplay gay characters, but they were
good actors that they were notgetting hired because somebody heard
or they.
They acted too gay.
So maybe they've got aids.
So they became this reallyintense once again.
It was like we had to go backunderground again almost in order
to be free with ourselves.

(33:36):
But it's like, how free can Ibe in the world?
Because everybody's gonnabreak you down now because you've
got this disease.
I.
What was what.
I think what was considerablydebilitating is that it wasn't just
one or two or three years.
It was over a period of like15 years of people.

(33:59):
I mean, I have several friendswho, who are HIV positive survivors
who've been positive for over20 years.
And they're also the exceptionto the rule because whatever drugs
they did or however theirmetabolism took it in was something
that allowed them to still be here.

(34:19):
We usually don't like to talkabout it, and I think that we should.
But then when we talk aboutit, what does it mean?
I mean, I have a.
My.
My young friend as well, thiscalled him, was telling me all of
the access to different kindsof drugs and, you know, things that
inhibitors and things that youall can take these days so that whether

(34:42):
you had an encounter or not,you know, here's some things that
can be put into your system.
We had none of those.
There was.
There.
There was no prep.
There were no other kinds of.
We did not even use condomsback then.
It just wasn't a part of howwe lived in the world.
So with us having to learn touse condoms in the 80s was like,

(35:05):
oh my God, we're having torework how we even interact with
each other.
And now, of course, yourgeneration, the recent generations,
that of course is just a partof how you live, you know, really
was.
And for.
For us, it.
For us, it was different.
Getting through with your.

(35:26):
With your heartaches and yourbreakdowns because certain people
you didn't expect weresuddenly gone was really hard for
a long time.
I discovered for myself one ofthe things that I lived with is I
never.
I was afraid to grieve becauseI was taking care of other people

(35:49):
that were grieving.
So I never allowed myself.
It's like I can't allow myself to.
Because I had to take care of these.
These other people.
So in the middle of goingthrough what you were going through,
did you have a chance togrieve because you said you were.

(36:11):
Have you, have you as that,has that happened?
Do you think even now asyou're older there's.
Thank you for asking.
Because it does make me haveto think about it.
And part of me knows theanswer is I'm not going to allow
myself to.
Because what I'm afraid of isif I start letting all the grief

(36:31):
come, it won't stop.
And I mean, I know it's justmy head thinking about it going like
if start grieving, you're notgoing to be able to come back from
it.
People come back from grief.
I help many people come backfrom grief.
But I'm, I'm.
I've just taught myself.
It is an interesting thingwhere I've told myself that if I
go all the way to grieving,I'm not going to come back the same

(36:52):
person, which may be okay, butI, I'm so resistant to it because
I need to be there for otherpeople when they're grieving.
And I would rather, I'd rather.
I'm always going to push forjoy, I'm always going to push for
happiness.
I'm always going to push forunderstanding and non judgmental

(37:14):
stuff.
But, but letting myselfimmerse in grief is scary.
I did a.
There was a person at theJuneteenth festival this year that
she made a booth that's aboutgrief, grieving and grief.
And so you went in and it wasjust some things hanging, some things
to think about, little promptquestions, some food tastings of

(37:38):
things that you think abouthow it does to your body.
And that's when I actually wasgiven the opportunity to identify
that I'm afraid of grief.
You know, I, I think grief isan important part of life, you know,
it is.
Things change, you grieve for them.
And I haven't, you know, or Imean there are many times, many things

(38:00):
that should be grieving, butI, I'm afraid to.
I.
And I, I'm sure it's probablysome therapy, some therapy thing
might, might happen.
You know, it's.
I don't know, a little latefor therapy.
It's too late.
You're done.
You're never too late for therapy.
Never too late.
I know, it's amazing therapy.
Yeah, I've done a lot andthere's probably a lot more to do.

(38:24):
I think I'm going to wait tillnext year.
I'm going to get through thisyear now and I'm sure that they'll.
Because there's going to besituations that I'm currently encountering
that I haven't, you know, thetherapeutically examined.
You know, why I do certainthings, why I think about some things,

(38:44):
because what I want to do is,as I, I call it.
This is what happens now isthat I can just, I can just choose
to be blonde.
I'm gonna be blonde.
Fine.
I don't care.
I'll just.
Doesn't bother me.
It doesn't bother me.
Okay.
It's all right.
I'm not gonna think about it,and then something else will happen.
So if I, if I pull myself backfrom it, then I don't, I haven't

(39:05):
invested any energy in tryingto make it real in my consciousness.
You know, I can keep it, I cankeep it part of mentalized.
And I think that's somethingthat we, we don't want to do as artists.
Emotionally, I mean,emotionally, I think I'm just extremely
available.
I'm, like, available all thetime, sometimes to the extreme.

(39:25):
So maybe that's where I workit all out.
But so far, but so far asspecific emotional tracks is, I,
I'm, I'm very aware of.
I don't want to go there.
So I can act like I know whatit's like to go there.
So that you get the impressionthat I'm actually doing that thing.

(39:49):
Because is it, is it good enough?
Because I'm in.
I'm.
Some people have said I'm kindof intense.
You know, I, I, I'll own my intensity.
And sometimes that just takesover for any sort of honest offering
that I might, that I shouldprobably be giving, but I, I find

(40:10):
a way to make it safe for me.
Yeah, it's, I almost worried.
Are you worried you'll be ableto come back if you get, if you let
yourself go there?
If I go.
And it's something that.
It almost happened one time atHarry's Hangout when we were checking
in one of those days, and Idid not know that Justin Frank had

(40:31):
died.
Who was one of the people thata lot of people knew and I knew,
knew him from when I firstcame here when I was in Madison,
and I didn't know that he haddied and his mother found him in.
All of a sudden, we're talkingabout that as we're going around
the room, and I felt myselfstart to swell up and was like, okay,
I can't do this now because,you know, I'm holding space here

(40:54):
with, with this, this community.
So I, I, I never got back toactually experiencing it.
This is so.
Are you Going to bill me nowfor what?
The therapy.
I'm not trying to bill you.
I'm not trying to bill you.
And this has been the mostorganic episode I've ever done.

(41:16):
I've barely had to use any ofmy questions.
But I also want to.
I really want to give you thespace to say what is pressing in
the moment and not feel likeyou have to rush it or it has to
be a polished answer or youhave to, you know, because I know

(41:36):
that there are people who aregoing to listen to this and are going
to resonate very deeply.
So I really want you to beable to connect as much as you can
with those folks and with me.
So I feel like I'm learning somuch about you every time I see you.
It's always joy, laughter,like you said.
You're always holding space.
You're always bringing peopletogether, creating a community for

(42:01):
people.
It's like a intergenerational thing.
Like I said at the lastHarry's Hangout, you know what I'm
saying?
It's like you have folks intheir early 20s to folks in their
70s, and we're all breaking bread.
We're all black, we're allqueer, and we're all just, you know,
in proper community together.

(42:22):
Right?
That is very, very important.
Especially even in the TwinCities is very important, you know,
so thank you for that.
Well, a lot of that has to dois if we decide that that's what
we're going to practice, thenthat's what we do.
Because a lot of people, justfor survival, you have your own little
pods, you know, you have alittle Kiki group, but it doesn't
necessarily interact with anyother groups because you don't need

(42:44):
to.
But to have a space where allthe Kikis can come together in whatever
way for those moments of, whoare we to each other?
What does that.
What does that mean about whowe are to each other?
Is there any future?
Does it matter at all, even?
But what I found is that everytime that we, for example, pulled

(43:05):
together, folks, for Harry'sHangout, those of you that don't
know Harry's Hangout, it'ssomething that happens every two
months at the QT Castle.
2212 Kovacs.
Black queer trans men is whatwe're looking for.
Okay?
You are all welcome.
This led me after rsvp becauseI bring a lot of food.
So.
So.
But by.

(43:25):
But by bringing what?
Good food.
A lot of good food, by the way.
It's the whole point.
Get some good food and giveSome people, some space to sit with
each other, which I think issomething that we also don't do.
We're usually always having todo something.
You have to.
You have to go to work, youhave to party.
You know, you have to gethigh, you have to get drunk.

(43:48):
But what if you have to get toknow each other?
You know, I'm not saying ithas to be 24 7, but even if it's
like 15 minutes of, well, allof a sudden there's a conversation
about some people that youdidn't know and not that you have
to like, okay, now we're goingto be best friends.
Like, no.
The fact that your energieshave shared the space is something

(44:08):
that's.
You really can't define it,but it's something you take away
from the evening and then, ofcourse, go party or be in touch with
people.
We've been.
I'm not saying we've createdany marriages or anything, but one
person did tell me that a bookclub was.
Was decided people wanted toread stuff together, so they created

(44:29):
their own book club.
I see more people connectingwith each other in different areas
that I don't know whether ithappened as much before.
But also people come to meabout wanting to get in touch with
people, you know, so I'm.
I love being the conduit, butI also like being the participant.

(44:49):
Yeah.
And I think more thananything, I hope that as you are
creating space for people andas you're being the conduit, that
you are also being fed.
Also you're getting the thingsthat you need.
You're not always being thenurturer and the.
And the caretaker and the onewho's always holding space.
But, you know, someone isholding space for you, for your emotions,

(45:12):
for all the things that you'reholding in that you haven't really
felt.
Wondering if that is somethingthat, you know, I have.
Yeah.
Or you desire.
I definitely desire it.
And I would say that it'sgotten really close these last couple
of hangouts, and.
Which is why I'm reallyinterested in the next one, which

(45:33):
hopefully will be in August of2025, is there's another layer that
I think is going to be coming off.
And I think it.
It does have to do with intimacy.
And that's something that, youknow, where we.
We talk about, what does it mean?
How scary is that?
You know, because that's when.

(45:55):
That's when we know that yourheart's going to get broke if you're.
If you're too emotionallyintimate with somebody.
But we Sort of, but we're.
That's the animal part of usthat we need.
Not that it's going to beanimal, like tear each other apart,
but it's that connection thatwe want to practice of being together.
And sometimes it's uncomfortable.

(46:16):
You know, Sometimes you don'tget what you need, or sometimes you
get exactly what you need.
You know, I've got to witnessthat myself.
The last couple of the lastHarry's hangout made me very happy.
I'm gonna say that's good.
I'm happy.
I'm happy that you're happy.
I'm really happy that you're happy.
I do have a question, and Ithink that is kind of related to.

(46:38):
We're gonna take it.
We're gonna take it back alittle bit to the 80s, right?
You are.
You start in one of, you know,a cult classic, Back to the Future.
You starting Back to the Future.
And I had one we're talkingabout, sir.
You were there.
You were there.
I was there.

(46:58):
I wasn't.
I wasn't there.
My father wasn't there.
Were you even born.
No.
You weren't even born yet.
I wasn't born.
I wasn't born in 85.
Okay, you're born when it cameout then.
Yes.
Yeah.
But.
Yeah.
I have a curiosity about.
You talking about having to,like, hide, perform straight.

(47:23):
Yes, man.
Was that what was happeningwhen you were being.
When you were getting this.
This show, this movie that isa cult classic?
Was that what was happeningwith you?
How were you navigating thatthroughout that process?
So what was interesting aboutthat time in particular?
So we're talking 1985.

(47:43):
And what month are you born in?
I was born in 89 by May.
Oh, 89.
Oh, you're.
You were born when the seat.
When we were shooting Back tothe Future, too.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, because I was doing a kind of.
It was very.
A very specific scene that was needed.

(48:05):
I was only there for thatparticular work, which was great
because it was me.
It was a live band.
It was 200 extras that we gotto have dance.
So we were having a party thewhole time.
And because I had an outfiton, I was supposed to be the band
leader.
I. I had a role to play, so Igot to really be in charge of things.

(48:26):
And I just started playingthis character who they then wanted
to film in a certain waybecause they're kind of like, oh,
wow, we'll let Harry do that.
We'll let Harry do that one.
So I got to participate increating the character, and that
Energy.
But I didn't even know.
But first of all, sidebar.
I didn't know what the rest ofthe movie was about.

(48:48):
I was really hired for thisone scene in the song.
It was like, okay, this isvery cool, right?
Work a couple of weeks and I'm out.
Okay.
Yeah, but we didn't know.
But I didn't have.
How would I say this, becauseit was 1985.
I had just broken up from arelationship with a model because
I was also very sort of bisexual.

(49:10):
This was a good thing that webroke up.
And then I'd come back to LA and.
Wow, sorry.
Dreaming about going back toLA at certain times.
And so when this particularjob came up, I was also up for a
TV series at the same time asa lead character.

(49:34):
And the name of the series washe's the Mayor.
And so it was between me andKevin Hooks, I believe.
And then I had the dealalready for abc, but then this movie
thing came up, and it was aSpielberg movie.
Now, if I had been playing themayor, he definitely was macho, but,
you know, I'm an actor, so Iwas like, giving the macho, macho,

(49:55):
cool, slick vibe.
But then this other characterwas going to be in a Spielberg movie.
My agent was saying, take theTV series.
I went, it's a Spielberg movieover here.
That let me do that.
So my excitement about being in.
Because it was the secondmovie I did a role in.

(50:17):
Yes.
Or the first one anyway.
One that big that it.
That I didn't know what itmeant because there was no connection
that it was going to have withthe black community, as far as I
knew.
You know, it's like, this is.
This is existing and whateverthat other universe is.
And I get to be like littleblack kid that runs through the.

(50:39):
Runs through the scene again.
But we didn't know it wasgoing to be run through the scene
again with Back to the Future,which did become its own sort of
juggernaut, I have to say.
But I never felt that mysexuality had anything to do with
my work, because I think thatwas the.
That was the other way thatyou got through is that don't bring

(51:01):
your sex to work.
You know, I'm.
All the straight guys did, youknow, they got to, like, flirt with
all the girls and carry on as,like, you know, beat kinds of dogs,
all that sort of stuff.
And I got to laugh with them.
But the people that I wantedto flirt with were over there in
the other corner.
And it's like.
And if I go over there, thenit looks Like, I'm part of them.
So I'm just going to stay hereand be quiet.

(51:22):
So there was the denial of mycommunity, which I really kind of
felt bad about.
However, being in Los Angelesat that time, there were quite a
number of black gay clubs.
So I was like, go to the CatchOne, they're going to the Horizon,
which of course we call theSnatch one and the Horizone.
Oh, wow.

(51:43):
And you would have.
And that's where everybodycould go.
Even the.
Even the straight boys couldgo there.
And it was okay, you know,that was just a weird time in Los
Angeles because I was livingin Hollywood also.
I was living in.
If you've been to Los Angelesor been to Hollywood, there's the
Grauman's Chinese.
And I was literally up thehill right there on the.

(52:07):
That I could look down intoFranklin on Franklin street and see
Hollywood Boulevard.
So I was in Hollywood.
So it was really a fascinating time.
We could afford.
We found a house for $300 a month.
I don't know, that wassomebody's estate sale.
And all of a sudden we'relike, living in the Hollywood Hills.
Can never happen in 2025.

(52:27):
Unless.
Unless you.
Some uncle's gonna give it to you.
No, it's.
You know, they're not evenblack gay clubs in LA anymore.
They're not, you know.
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Oh, my God.
Because whenever I go there,I'm not going to the clubs because
I haven't gone to the clubs ina while.
But I figured there must be no.
Oh, my God.
I'm gonna.
Like parties.

(52:47):
They're like parties that happen.
I think there's a party that happens.
There's a party on Fridaynights at the Abbey.
So all the black people go there.
That's not.
No, no, I. I remember.
I knew the Abbey.
That's West Hollywood.
Yay.
There was black clubs in the.
Oh, I mean, there was.
Yeah, there was black clubsall over.
No, there were three.

(53:08):
There were basically three.
That was Horizon, Catch one,and Papa Bear, which was in the hood.
It was in the hood.
I never went there.
Well, I don't know my LA listeners.
If there are black gay clubs,let me know.
Because I've only been to la,like, twice, and, you know, I don't.
There are no black gay clubs.
I'm gonna find out.
I have to talk to my friend George.

(53:30):
But all my people are older.
I'll have to find someonewho's gonna go like.
So could you please do it?
Some searching for me wherethe research.
On the Black gay club.
Yeah.
In la.
There was even an Egyptian gayclub that I went to in downtown LA
called Akbar.
Oh, God, it was hot.
Anyway, and that was, that was.
That was like five or sixyears ago.

(53:51):
So that's still there.
Oh, okay.
Okay, cool.
I'm gonna have to check thatout then.
Recommend it highly.
Yeah, but there, there werethose spaces that you could disappear
to.
And I think that's anotherthing that.
Of how we got through, youknow, there was like.
Now it's like you sayeverybody, you know, everybody can
be gay everywhere, you know,you can.

(54:11):
As long as you're, you know,you're not gonna go to a country
western bar and it's just agay country western bar are, I guess.
And.
But then also with yourself,even coming from another.
Another country, anotherculture that doesn't allow your identity
to be celebrated, Is thatsomething that you're also aware
of when you're going to.

(54:32):
Into clubs and spaces here inthe US.
That's a good question.
I feel like I wasn't very pressed.
Practically.
I didn't understand the racialdynamics of engaging in queer spaces
because in Nigeria we're alllike black people.

(54:53):
Yeah, Right.
But also, you know, we areexposed to culture from a Eurocentric
lens.
Right.
And I'm not saying that beinggay is a Western import.
Right.
But when you, whencolonization has taught you that
your sexuality is bad, Right.
You also look to colonizationin court.

(55:16):
You look to whatever media youhave, right?
Yes.
Queerness to you.
And so usually it's usuallylike Eurocentric stuff.
Right.
And so coming here, it was,oh, we're all.
I didn't understand that therewere some racial dynamics to actually
being queer and leaving.
You know, I just thought thatwe're all gay, so we're all gonna

(55:38):
be happy together, you know,regardless of our.
And then color, you found outthe truth.
You know what I'm saying?
And I think that for me, thatwas the shift and that was what changed.
And so now, like,intentionally I seek out spaces that,
you know, I take out a lot ofblack queer spaces.
I'm, you know, I come toHarry's hangouts when I'm out of

(56:01):
town.
I love Atlanta a lot becauseAtlanta has a lot of those spaces.
Yeah, I like Atlanta.
I like D.C. i like New York for.
I just.
I don't find myself there, youknow, being there and being a community
with people who are like,black American or Caribbean or African
or like the entire blackdiaspora, but just being a community

(56:24):
with people is always like mygo to.
So, yes, it has shifted.
You know, living in TwinCities is not really, you know, really
have Harry's hangouts.
And if someone throws a partyapart, you know.
Exactly.
So we're trying to throw aparty at least every other month
for people to get.
Always get to come and hangout, and now we get to go really
party.
That's what I want to say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(56:46):
I think that.
I think that something I wouldsay about living here is.
I think in a lot of biggercities with a predominantly larger,
maybe, like, back population,there is a tendency to focus on the
commercialization of ouridentity, right?
And so it's like, oh, we'regonna throw X amount of parties and

(57:08):
charge 50 for entry and doblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I think here there is a focuson building community.
From my experience, I knowpeople may have different experiences
living in Twin Cities, but formy experience as someone who's black
and queer and living here, Ithink that we focus a lot more on.

(57:31):
I mean, we like to have a goodtime, but like to go out and do the
thing.
But, like, we focus a lot moreon how are we dealing community with
ourselves.
So that even though whenthings are rough, when things are
tough, you know, we have eachother's backs and we are, you know,
a proper community, like weclaim that we are supposed to be.

(57:51):
You know, I mean, I think formyself, that's when I hear that also
is something where I get sortof re.
Energized about trying to keepHarry's hangout alive, you know,
keep it still going.
Because part of me goes like, it's.
I don't have to do it.
You all can do it.
But then somebody said, no,it's Harry's hangout.
So I'm gonna try and do atleast through the end of the year,

(58:12):
like, maybe there's threemore, two more.
And recognize that it is kindof special because we're choosing
it.
You know, you have to.
We're inviting.
We're inviting our friends,but we're choosing to come.
You're choosing to come tosome place for sure.
And it's not.
It's.
It's not a sex club, you know,it's not a.

(58:34):
It's not a bar, per se.
And it's.
And it's not.
It's not church, you know, it.
It maybe is our private club.
I mean, when all.
When the lesbians go, oh, canwe go?
I want to go, no.
You know, and I have a whitepartner, and can they go, no.
So I don't care what elseyou're doing.

(58:55):
We're really doing thisaffinity because you can put this
in the cloud.
One of the things I have feltfor a number of years are our stories,
the black gay male stories arebeing pushed down because we have
to center all the other identities.

(59:17):
So therefore our identity issort of swirled to the outside.
It's not at the center, but wehave a very kind of specific experience
as well.
You know, like what hap.
Like what happens when we gettogether in that house is that we
can't name it, but it's aplace where, oh, we get to exhale

(59:38):
together as opposed to usmaking other spaces where people
can exhale.
We get to do it with each other.
And that's unique.
It's like, oh, oh, is this iswhat that's like.
You know, I always wonderwhen, like you.
What's it like to be all whiteand go into a country bar, country
western bar.
That's your people, and youall know what the rules are.

(01:00:00):
So what if we have our peoplecome into a space, and especially
one that's really nice.
I mean, we're really happyabout the mansion and we just get
to be with each other.
You can still kiki.
You know, everything's goingto happen like that and not everybody's
going to get along, but it'sjust us for a moment.
And I think that it's soimportant for us, even if you just

(01:00:22):
come once.
But just the idea of what itwas like to be in that group of black
queer men who are actuallytalking to each other about either
talking about themselves ortalking about the world and how the
world affects us, we're givingvoice to that.
That doesn't happen in a lotof other places.
I just.
I love just sitting back inthe other room and I'm watching,

(01:00:43):
watching this happen, and Iwant to.
I don't want to record it.
It's like, I don't wantsomeone to come in and do a documentary
about Harry's hangouts.
Like, no, this is about usbeing human with each other because
we, we need to.
And if, if, if we begin tomake that the practice that we're

(01:01:05):
human with, we can be bitchywith everybody, of course, but to
be human with each other, ifthat's a practice, then there's some
hope for us.
I'm not trying to save everybody.
I. I mean, I'm really sorrythat the world sucks.
I want my Harry's hangouthomos to have.
To have a heart, to have aheart of their own that hopefully

(01:01:28):
they get to take somewhere Else.
And I speak from that becauseI didn't have it when I was here
in the Twin Cities.
I was teaching for 17 years at McAllister.
There were two gay black professors.
One left early, and the otherone, Marlon James, you know, he retired
as well when I went away.
So there was a dearth ofidentity, connections.

(01:01:53):
I made lots of friends.
I mean, that's the key tosurvival in higher ed.
FYI.
Anyone listening?
It's like, be friends withpeople, and then your.
Your roles become clearer andyour support's there.
But having identity with acommunity I didn't have.
I had the arts community, youknow, in the sense that I knew.
I knew the organizations, Iknew actors, I knew directors.

(01:02:15):
I knew artistic directors anddesigners and even foundation people.
You know, I was in.
In that artistic community.
But there was no specificblack, queer, gay male places.
And like Atlanta, of course,they're everywhere.
New York, there's enough ofthem there, of course, even in Los
Angeles.
But I, you know, felt that.

(01:02:36):
Am I missing one that's here,like, something I didn't know about?
There's a secret.
There's a secret group ofblack queer men that you have to
know where they're going inorder to be a part of.
And that.
I didn't go to the saloon orthe 90s or the brass rail in the
old days, because I was goingto run into students there.
And I went, okay, I don't wantto run into my students.

(01:02:58):
Last thing I need to do isstart flirting with, you know, a
sophomore in college.
It's like, no, I like my job.
But since that time, it'slike, I don't have.
I don't have the need to go tothose clubs.
But I still had a need toconnect with us.
And when the idea came up,because I was.

(01:03:21):
I was also working on atheater piece about Lynn Burke, game
changer.
He was the black gay baseballplayer who's credited with creating
the high five in 1977 in theworld Series.
And he played for the Dodgers.
They all knew he was gay.

(01:03:42):
The Dodgers said, you should marry.
We'll pay you to marry, to getmarried, he said.
To a woman.
Oh, damn.
But he said, no, you know, butanyway, I had.
Was working on a piece abouthim, and there were, like, eight
black queer men that were in it.
One was straight.
I'm sorry.
Yes.
And so I said, we should justget together after.
And I had run into Roxanne,and they were telling me about the

(01:04:05):
QT Castle.
And so I said, let's just comeover this place and hang out and
it was wonderful.
And then I was talking toanother Jason Jackson, as a matter
of fact, because he's one ofthe few connections that I have in
the community.
I said, come over to.
I have this mansion thatRoxanne is letting us use.

(01:04:25):
Call your friends and justcome over and hang out next time.
We had 13 people, they lovedit so much.
Oh, my God, let's create something.
Then we had about 25 and thenit went to 35, which was like more
than enough because we had aJames Baldwin event a year ago, James
Baldwin's 100th birthday.
And you know, since it's,it's, you know, it varies between

(01:04:48):
20 to 25, 30, 15, I don't know.
But it's created a space forme to feel that I at least see some
other black male gay faces ona semi regular, because I don't.
Otherwise, you know, I'm notin those circles.

(01:05:08):
But now I've made a couple offriends, one of whom I just called
a while ago, who's closer tomy generation.
And it's, yeah, we want to be friends.
And it's a different.
It's.
It's learning how to do thework to connect with each other differently.
It's not like usually you havea job or you're dating somebody.
Yeah.
Yes.

(01:05:29):
And so I have two questions.
Yes.
And I know that we are pressedfor time.
Oh, are we?
One is, one is.
So the play you did has beendone already.
He's going to come back.
Because I never got to see that.
We were just doing a workshopof it.
And so currently it's onpause, but I think it's definitely

(01:05:50):
20, 26, because what I'm.
One of the things that I wantto do with it is I want to use the
experiences of what happens inHarry's hangout to be how the play
moves across country.
So I wanted to really have the idea.
My dream is to have this idea of.

(01:06:11):
There's this piece about GlennBurke, but it's also an opportunity
for a group of black gay mento get together and talk and then
see what happens after that.
So the game goes on.
Yeah, please let us know aboutthat because now my curiosity is
very peaked.
But I have one question andthen I'm going to do some rapid fire
questions for you.
Okay, good.

(01:06:31):
Just to get to some lighter questions.
You were in the Twin Citiesfor teaching at McAllister, right.
So you left.
You did you, you did your workin theater and film and commercials,
came became a theaterprofessor, started Taught for over
a decade.

(01:06:53):
How did you survive?
Because you said you weren't.
You.
You didn't have a lot of.
You didn't know where theblack gay folks were.
You were.
You weren't going out.
How did you survive in theTwin Cities for that long without
any community?
There's another friend of minewho also teaches, a black woman who
teaches at.
Who is teaching at McAllister.
She's still there.

(01:07:14):
Duchess Harris.
And we had both had similarhigh school experiences, like going
to a private boarding school.
So we knew how to work withwhite folks.
It's like, I know what thatworld is.
You know, I'm used to beingthe only one.
So that was another realitythat I could always roll back on,

(01:07:35):
because even though I may havedone a lot of theater, not all my
theater was black theater.
You know, primarily it waswhite theater.
That I was the black role, orthere was a role they decided could
be a black actor.
So getting here is like.
And my partner.
And my partner, who I did not expect.
I was gonna.
I wasn't planning on meetinganybody, but we've been together

(01:07:56):
for, like, 25 years now, whichis really weird to me because it's
2025.
So I also have his world thatI've been.
That I'm.
That I'm a part of.
And it didn't.
I had no other resources, youknow, because the job was pulling.
So I had to make sure that Iwas doing the job well.

(01:08:18):
I had some major problems atthe job during a couple of years.
A couple of those years that,you know, I didn't need to be there.
And I let them know I wasacting out, so to speak.
And I don't know if that hadto do with.
I didn't have any community asopposed to.
I was just uncomfortable beingin that environment.
I didn't.
I didn't like myself being there.

(01:08:42):
And then I made a.
Then I made a turnaroundabout, okay, then, so how do you
stay in your job?
Cause that's what it was.
It was a job.
And I had to stop thinkingabout it as it wasn't my work, but
it was just the job that I hadto go do.
And when I made that switch,then it was really clear that I'm
not going to have any other community.
I'm just going to do this thing.
I'm going to not worry abouttrying to find.

(01:09:05):
Which is.
Now that I'm even saying it, Iwasn't trying to find that community.
It was.
I just need to keep working,and I needed to keep the arts community
around me or be in the artscommunity, because that was also
feeding my work at school.
So that was full time, I haveto say.
I mean, that just.
I was always at everybody's shows.
I was bringing students todifferent organizations.

(01:09:28):
I was bringing artists to campus.
Those things were exciting to me.
Every year or so, I got toactually act in a play in the Twin
Cities so that my students gotto see that.
Yeah, I actually know what I'm doing.
It's like, this is what I do.
But I didn't have that blackgay community.
I didn't know.
And a part of it.

(01:09:48):
I didn't know that I wasmissing it until Marlon left.
And then it was like, oh,there's even nobody I can like, call
and kind of, like, bitch with.
And they know what it's like.
I mean, the woman.
Yes, we were bitching about being.
We were both chairs of ourdepartment, so we were the black
chairs, and so that's what wewould bitch about.

(01:10:09):
But she's married, has three kids.
You know, I'm not.
And she knows I'm gay.
But it was.
That was not part of ourissue, you know, that we were.
That we were coming together on.
So I.
So when I retired, it's like Ijust knew that I'm missing something.
And this was literally twoyears ago.
August of 2023 was my last official.

(01:10:31):
I mean, it was during the pandemic.
So I wasn't, you know, wasn't.
I wasn't on campus.
Everything was zooming, youknow, zooming classes and doing all
of that, but I didn't evenknow that I missed it.
And I think that's why it wasso kind of disturbing to me of, so
where are they?
And I didn't know how to getthat community.

(01:10:52):
I didn't know how to be a partof that community.
And to be honest, one of thethings I always feel like, well,
I'm not.
I'm not gay enough.
It's like, right.
Really, you know, or I don't have.
I don't have the queerestsensibility that I should have.
I call it the.
The language of liberation,you know, that a lot of, you know,

(01:11:13):
organizers and leaders have,especially given these times, you
know, in George Floyd and howwe're doing active black liberation,
their species and healing andtrauma and all those things.
Like, I don't do that.
So, sorry.
I'm glad y' all are doing it.
Yay.
Go.
That's not what I do.
What I do is I get peopletogether to have.

(01:11:35):
To have time to know eachother, you know?
And I think that when Irecognize that, that that's what
I really like doing, it waslike, oh, I can do this thing.
Because I was doing anotherproject called Outside Voices, which
is where every week during thepandemic, Wednesdays at 2, Saturdays
at 1, was in the park laughingand screaming and saying hello to

(01:11:58):
people on a regular basis for3 and a half years.
And that's what got methrough, because there was.
I was, like, in the community.
This was in Powderhorn Park.
So I was in a community wherepeople were walking by or being in
there.
And so I got to be thewonderful, crazy man in the park
that would invite people tolaugh and scream.
And they did.
Or all the.

(01:12:19):
Sometimes it was just me,sometimes it was 20 people.
So when I found that, okay, sowhere are all the black gays that
live in the world?
And how do I.
Because they're not going tocome to the park and laugh and scream.
I don't think there was a few,but it wasn't, like, part of the
place you would go.

(01:12:39):
Coming out of sort of a voidfrom McAllister.
I didn't know how.
I didn't know how to get there.
I didn't know how to get to y'.
All.
You know, I didn't.
I didn't know if I would evenbe welcome or invited.
But just the idea of, like,okay, let me just see what happens
if we sponsor some space.
And two of the.

(01:13:00):
Two of the things that alwayshappened in the first two or three
is that people were alwayssaying, we don't have a space where
black queer men can come together.
And I would say, in my head,you're sitting in it, like, right
now.
This is.
This is the space that we have.
If you want to find anotherone, great.
But we have.
We have one right now.

(01:13:21):
So how do we celebrate it?
And now that it's movingforward, there's a.
There's really a desire to goand kind of, like, return to some
of those people who were thereat the beginning who haven't come
back for whatever reason,because I think they were unconsciously

(01:13:41):
part of how the community got built.
And how do we know where they.
I probably wants to go backand be able to thank all of them,
but we didn't get everybody's,you know, information back then because
I was intentionally notwanting people to feel that they
were signing up for something,but they were just coming, having
a good time, and they got theleave that they wanted.
Now it was like, who was there?

(01:14:03):
One of Those people.
So.
Okay, that was.
That was a lot.
I know.
It's 14.
You have some more rapid fire questions.
Go.
No, no, no.
Before the rapid fire question.
Well, let's just name that.
I know you talked about.
You don't have the language ofblack liberation of the organizers
and all the things, but youare also doing the work.
You're not doing it in the waythat they're doing the work.

(01:14:26):
You are organizing people as well.
You were building community.
You are cultivating joy and resilience.
Your.
The spaces that you have, youhave hosted of people talking about
different issues of, like theBaldwin birthday or just different
things that have differentconversations that have started from

(01:14:47):
Harry's hangouts that are veryimportant also as well.
So I don't want you to takeaway from that.
I want you to celebrate thatalso, that you are also doing something,
contributing yourself and yourown form of activism to the movement.
I'm glad it's brought out that.

(01:15:08):
Yeah.
So now we could do our rapidfire question.
Here we go.
So what are the top.
What are your favorite threeproductions you've been a part of?
Angels in America because Ihelped create the roles in 1991 at
the Eureka Theater.
I did a production of Ragtimein 2012 here in the Twin Cities at

(01:15:31):
Park Square Theater, which Iactually had a glorious time about.
And the third one.
What would be the third one?
There's a lot of things.
Oh, three, two years ago, Idid a fringe show called Baldwin's
Last Fire, and it was writtenby a friend of mine, Reggie Edmond,
and it won the Golden Lanyard Award.

(01:15:53):
And I was in it, and I had todirect it, which I never want to
do again.
And those are.
And it was so satisfying to bein those.
In those three.
Now there's things I'vedirected also.
I did a production of QueenBee that we did in the parks during
the pandemic.
There was Impact Theory ofMass Extinction, about two queer

(01:16:14):
black girls in Minneapolis whotake an elixir and go back to the
time of dinosaurs.
And the dinosaurs are like,it's a dinosaur drag ball.
Fabulous.
And then just this, earlierthis year, I directed a show with
Zamia Theater Company called Displace.
And it was about the two homeless.
Homeless community and thecondo community playing a game like

(01:16:36):
Dungeons and Dragons.
And so they were competing crews.
And we did it with this huge.
In this huge theater.
It was amazing.
It was like cast of 25.
Like, what was I thinking?
But.
But it was wonderful, and Ihad such a great time doing it.
Okay, next Question.
That is awesome.
Is there any production thatyou really want to do?

(01:16:58):
Whether I act or direct in it.
Oh, I want to do Little Shopof Horrors.
Okay.
Yes.
Little Plant.
Do you want to act in it oryou want to direct it?
I want to direct it, but maybebe the voice of the Plant single.
Okay.
Okay.
I can see that happening.
Are there any.
Who are the artists?
Who are some of your favoriteartists that you've collaborated

(01:17:18):
with throughout your career?
Oh my God.
Okay.
There's one of my friendswho's a director in New York.
His name is Clinton Turner Davis.
I was just there.
I had to help him with someknee surgery, but he's, he's fine
now.
I'm trying to think who else I.
There's mostly it's been, it'sbeen a while since I've had, you

(01:17:40):
know, those experiences ofdoing like a long term show with
anyone.
Regina Williams, of course, isalways here, but I never get to work
with her anymore becauseshe's, you know, busy being all over
the, all over the Twin Cities celebrity.
The celebrity.
I worked with Greta Oglesby as well.
And like she's amazing.
You know, I would really liketo do something with T. Michael Rambo,

(01:18:04):
you know, just to do aperformance, some sort of production
or an event with.
With him because I think thatwould be, would be a lot of fun.
Yeah, I'm not.
I was going to do a show thisfall at a Park Square theater.
This play called It's Only aPlay, but it was all white cast.
It's a really silly play abouta Broadway opening of a show.

(01:18:25):
And it's like, eh, I don't care.
So I told them no.
Wow.
I felt kind of.
I felt kind of bad becausethey're never going to ask me to
act again.
And then I went, that's okay.
I'm fine.
I've acted enough.
Anyway, that's the next question.
Talk so much.
Sorry.
It's okay.

(01:18:46):
You're.
You're totally fine.
Are there any art?
I know you had mentioned acouple, but like I want, I wanted
to know more artists like in.
On a much more generalperspective, like dream collaborations
that you like.
I'm dying to work with you.
Whether it's in a player, in a film.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you know, who wouldn'twant, would not want to work with

(01:19:07):
Ryan Coogler, you know, Imean, yes, I want to be in Sinners,
Sinners 2.
Ryan Kugler, Pooh, HarryWaters, Jilliard in season, in Sinners
2 or Black Panther 3.
Anyone just call me.
Yeah, Just send that out,Harry through your networks.
Like Harry's available.

(01:19:30):
Going to make that happen.
And he's affordable.
Trust me.
He's affordable.
Yeah.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
I would really love to do.
I would love to do another TVseries because I did a couple.
I did one called what a Country.
This was in 1985, 86, and itwas with Yakov Smirnoff, who was

(01:19:53):
this Russian comedian was the lead.
And we were all in an Americancitizenship class.
So I was an African prince.
My name was Prince RobertMoboto, and I was from Mobotoland.
Embarrassed.
But I was very good.
I had.
I had a good time.
I was very funny.

(01:20:13):
Being very dry.
And then I also did a TVseries for the Disney Channel called
Adventures in Wonderland,which was a live Alice in Wonderland
show.
You can look that one up.
Just put that in your thing.
Alice.
I mean, Adventures in Wonderland.
And I was Wonderland.
Okay.
Tweedledee and Tweedledum werethe brothers that were like hip hop
dancers in the forest.

(01:20:34):
You know, we didn't have ahome, but it's very animated.
But it's live action.
Like we had singing anddancing all through it.
I'll send you a link.
It'll be fun.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm sure I'll be able to findit like on Disney plus or something.
Oh, yeah, well, actually, weused to be on Disney plus.
Those.
They didn't pay us.
We tr.
Oh, damn.

(01:20:54):
Really?
Seriously?
I got a check once for minusone cents.
It's like, what?
What do you mean?
I don't know what this means.
Minus one, minus.
Minus one.
That is crazy.
That is crazy.
Anyway, so we're.
We're not on the.
We're not on Disney plus, butif you on YouTube, we're.

(01:21:15):
We're there everywhere, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, cool, cool.
What are like the top threesongs you're listening to right now?
Oh, my God.
Right?
But see, I do do history inthe sense that I like old.
I'm listening.
I always will.
Listen to Luther Vandross.
We're having a party any day.
I'm going to show.

(01:21:35):
Let me just go to my.
My liked songs.
Everything Must Change byOlita Album Adams, which is such
a real deep song to me.
Tookie Tookie, Tuki TookyTookie Tookie Tookie.
No Place I'd Rather Be, whichI know it's so corny, but I just
love that kind of.
That.
That kind of song.

(01:21:55):
Song.
I was playing a lot of 70s and80s R&B, you know, but more Funk.
More like funk things.
I'm trying.
I'm looking at my list here.
What have I been playing overand over again?
I'm trying to get out of mysad songs because I was.
There is a version called.

(01:22:16):
I mean, a version of this Easyby the Commodores that I just shared
with a friend of mine becauseI wanted them to know that that's
how they make me feel.
Easy.
Like Sunday morning.
Oh, that is.
That is so poetic.
Okay, cool.
Who's your favorite artist ofall time?
Oh, Lucifendros.

(01:22:37):
He can sing any, any, any,any, anything.
I used to be a big Diana Rossfan, but, you know, she's old now,
But I still, like.
You all are being like, y' allare Beyonce.
I was Diana Ross nuts.
I had everything.
Oh, my God.
Don't you say she's old now.
She's fabulous.
You should be that fabulouswhen you get to be old.

(01:22:58):
That's all I got to say.
True.
That is true.
That is true.
Yes.
We have Beyonce.
Y' all have that.
I want to see Beyonce.
We'll see Beyonce.
What did you say?
I want to see Cowboy Carterkicking up at 70 years old.
You know, we will be there.
You will be.

(01:23:19):
You know, we'll be there whenshe's 17.
That's true.
Okay, the final rapid question.
The final rapid fire questionis, what is your guilty pleasure?
Oh, popcorn.
Kettle corn.
Popcorn.
I can eat it all day.
Yes.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, it is.
It's been.
It's been such a greatconversation with you.
But before I let you go, I wanna.

(01:23:39):
I want.
I want you to share.
What is the one thing thatyou're holding on to in this iteration
of your life?
You are retired.
You are choosing criticallythe kind of work you wanna be a part
of, and you are cultivating community.
What is the thing that is yourwhole you're taking with you and

(01:24:00):
you're holding on to duringthis time?
Wow.
Me and my brother call it.
We.
We're winning because there'sso much struggle going on.
So if we.
If what?
What we want to do is justreframe what's going on for us, and
right now, at this moment, wecan say, yes, we're winning, and

(01:24:23):
we can be happy and not feelguilty about it.
So I'm really grateful that Iget to experience this happiness
and I get to share thathappiness with other people.
That's.
That's the gift I feel thatI've still been given at this time
in my life.
I get to make people happy.

(01:24:44):
Yeah.
I try and make.
Try and make Harry happy,because that's why I'm here.
Make Harry happy.
That is beautiful.
And thank you for making me happy.
And thank you for making allof us happy.
Very.
We really appreciate you, Harry.
Thank you for coming on.
How can the people find you?
I'm on Facebook.

(01:25:05):
I haven't.
Apparently I have an Instagram.
I just haven't used it.
But I'm.
Why I don't care.
You want to come by and havesome tacos with me?
Please?
I will post some things aboutfamily and occasionally some events,
but otherwise it's like I wantto have.

(01:25:26):
I want you to be human with me.
Please.
I'm available.
I'm not hiding.
Chicago and Lake.
Long as you're not a star.
Okay.
Thank you, Harry.
Well, thank you, Harry.
Thanks, folks, for watching.
I'll share Harry WatersJunior's Facebook Instagram in the
description if you care to follow.

(01:25:49):
But Harry values physical connections.
Just know that.
And.
And also the next Harry's Hangout.
I probably share that on mysocial media.
So follow to be updated whenthat is happening.
Well, thank you, Harry andthank you for watching y' all and
listening.
Until next time.
Next time.

(01:26:09):
Peace.