June 20, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Odejuma, Harry chats with acclaimed poet and performer Titilope Sonuga. She speaks on how her personal and professional journey has shaped her as an artist and cultural storyteller. From her roots in Nigeria to her life and work in Canada, Titi speaks with vulnerability and wisdom about the power of embracing creativity, even in the face of uncertainty.
She reflects on her time as Edmonton’s Poet Laureate (2021–2023), her Dora Award nomination for her work in "Sankofa: The Soldier’s Tale Retold," and how acting in the popular Nigerian series "Gidi Up" expanded her artistic horizons.
Titi also discusses the impact of cultural duality on her art, exploring the evolving meaning of sisterhood with her most recent album and how motherhood has transformed her creative process. At the heart of the conversation is a call for a broader understanding of celebrating different artistic expressions, especially ones that embrace experimentation, imperfection, and personal growth.
Listen to Sis here: Titilope Sonuga - Sis
For more on Titilope, visit her website: Titilope Sonuga
For more information on Harry Itie, visit his website: Harry Itie
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, my name is Harry, andwelcome to Odejuma.
Odejuma recognizes the magicof storytelling.
From personal experiences tostories of adventure, from tales
of resilience to finding joyin the simple things.
This story seeks to inspire,entertain, and educate because there
is power in the stories ofeveryday people, and these stories
(00:22):
are worth telling.
Hi, folks, and welcome toanother episode of Odejuma.
And for this one, I'm veryexcited because I have someone who
(00:42):
I deeply admire, who I deeplyrespect, who.
Their work is very moving,very inspirational.
I have Titi Lockwear Shonuga.
Hi, Titi.
How you doing?
Hi.
I'm well.
Thank you for having me.
I'm.
I'm honored.
And, yeah, that was a verykind introduction.
Thank you.
It is.
And I think that folks arealways blown away by your work.
(01:03):
I feel like.
Like your art is so beautifulto witness.
For folks who are not aware,Titi is a poet, Tutui is an artist.
Titui is a writer.
Titi is a multimediahyphenate, creative, and has the
awards and the credentials toback it up.
And so, yeah, I feel likeeverybody needs to be familiar with
(01:24):
your work.
And I feel like every time Icome across a poem or something that
you've put out or somethingthat you've done, it's a whole experience.
Experience.
Right.
And so just want to, in my ownway, give you your flowers and your
tens because it's very well deserved.
Very, very well deserved.
Thank you.
(01:45):
I think, you know, first ofall, congratulations on your nomination,
your Dora Awards nominationfor outstanding new musical and new
opera for your work inSankofa, the Soldier's Tale Retold.
And for folks who don't have.
Who need a context for whatthe Dora Awards is, America has the
(02:05):
Tonys, the British have theOliviers, Canadians have the Dora
Awards.
So that this is really huge.
So how are you feeling rightnow about this news?
I think I've settled a littlebit more.
Yeah.
I was truly gobsmackedbecause, like, this is.
That is not my world necessarily.
I'm a poet, and I have ageneral sense for how things work
(02:25):
in our world.
And so this was like a reallya new endeavor.
So I didn't have my mind on.
I didn't even know theannouncements were happening.
I was just in my life andsomebody tagged me on Instagram.
So I was stunned, truly by it,because it's a great honor.
And of course, as you know,nothing happens in isolation.
(02:45):
There's an incredible team ofpeople that made it happen.
The work was commissioned bythe Art of Time Ensemble and Directed
by Tawie McCarthy, who's anincredible Ghanaian Canadian director.
And so I just feel like therewere a lot of cooks and hands in
the soup pot.
And so it feels truly like.
Like this kind of belongs toall of us and the effort that we
made.
And so I was humbled, stunned.
(03:07):
And now I'm getting to a placeof, like, wow.
Like, this is.
This feels truly, for me,like, affirmation and just, like,
doing things that are unfamiliar.
I'd never written an opera before.
Like, what do I know aboutStravinsky's music?
Right.
And so it feels reallyaffirming to just, like, it's like,
just do the thing, and younever know what will happen next.
(03:29):
Yeah.
And it's fascinating.
You talk about, like, justdoing the thing, and I think that
that's something that we'veseen throughout your career so far,
like, progression and everything.
And even.
And I know this wasn't.
This wasn't opera, but Iremember back in Nigeria, you did,
like, an Adam musical, youknow, and I don't think that's the
only play you did.
Right.
You did.
You also.
You also did other, like,plays before.
(03:51):
Yeah, I would say that was,like, the biggest one.
Again, another thing wheresomeone's like, oh, can you write
a musical?
I'm like, yeah, of course.
Writes musicals.
Don't worry.
I had no idea what I was doing.
But yeah.
Yes.
You know, yeah, that was agood, good.
I loved another musical.
I thought it was really.
It was so moving when I saw it.
I still remember it.
(04:12):
And so, like, your work hasalways had pulls from different,
like, mediums.
Right.
Even though you're a poet, youincorporate music, you incorporate,
like, performance and allthese pieces.
Has that always been somethingthat has been intentional for you
as you're creating your work?
I mean, I think I just lovestories, and for me, like, that storytelling
(04:33):
is in everything.
I maybe beginning, I was,like, really invested in being a
poet, you know, and whatever Ithought that was.
But I think over time, andthis is like a decade plus of doing
this full time, what I'verealized is that every time I move
in the direction of what feels.
Feels exciting to me or feelstrue or feels joyful, then it really
(04:55):
doesn't matter what medium orgenre it fits into.
I'm just like, it feels most,like, the most urgent thing to do.
And I've.
I've trusted that instinct,and it's usually paid off.
And so I wouldn't say that Istarted off thinking in that way.
I think I started off quiteRigid, actually, as most young writers
do.
You have a very clear senseof, like, this is the kind of writer
I am.
But I think I've learned totake myself a little bit less seriously
(05:17):
and to just do the things thatI enjoy, things that light me up
and let that fall into anycategory that it fits into in the
end.
Yeah.
And of course, when I met you,you were.
You were.
I met you when you had movedback to Nigeria and, you know, now
you're back in Canada.
I feel like your work is movedby how you're rooted in these two
(05:39):
cultures and countries.
How does.
How does that inspire your artin any way?
Just living and living inbeing a Nigerian who's also Canadian,
and having those cultures intermix.
How does that show up in yourwork and in your art?
Yeah, I was really in Nigeria,like, on my dulu, had no.
(05:59):
What an era.
But I think it was also one ofmy most powerful eras.
Just like saying yes, youknow, that say yes to the universe
and just do the thing.
I'm really grateful for that.
I think we're.
You know, there's this.
I'm going to butcher thequote, but just wherever you are,
there you are.
You know, I feel like whetherI'm in Lagos in Nigeria or here in
Edmonton where I live, I'malways going to be kind of a mixture
(06:21):
of all the people, the places,the cultures, the stories, the songs
that have built me up.
And so that's always sort ofwith me.
I think my.
My work is less locationspecific and more like evolutions.
Like, where am I as a woman inthis timeline of my life?
What is important to me?
What is urgent to me?
And I write in that direction,always from the vantage point of
(06:42):
being, you know, a YorubaNigerian woman.
So there's like a sense inwhich that part of me is always integrated
in the work.
I feel like when I'm in.
In Nigeria, I'm there for theenergy, like, the electricity of
that, like, just the vibes.
And when I'm here, there's akind of more quiet lull to the pace
of my life that then allows meto be more reflective.
(07:04):
So I think I toggle betweenthe two places in that way.
Yeah, that is.
That is really beautiful to know.
Speaking of Edmonton, you werenamed the Edmonton Puerto Laurette.
First of all, how did I come about?
What does that entail?
How you feeling?
I feel like you're gettingyour flowers, you know, like I said
(07:25):
earlier, earlier on.
But that must have been huge,you know, for you.
Yeah.
An Honor again, another honoris just like this feeling of like,
you never know, you know.
So the poet laureate's job inthe city is to be kind of like a
literary ambassador for thecity of Edmonton, to tell the stories
of its people, its places, anddo that through poetry.
(07:46):
And everybody that fills therole gets to decide how they want
to do that.
But your job is essentially tobring poetry to the people and the
people to poetry, and do thisthrough this very specific Edmonton
lens.
How did it come about?
You at any point can apply.
So you turn in an applicationthat just says, yeah, I want to do
this thing.
Consider me.
And.
And then you submit and youget shortlisted or not.
(08:08):
And when you get shortlisted,you do an interview with a panel.
And for people before me, thatpanel was like, you know, in person
at City hall, it's like this thing.
But because I was.
I took the position in apandemic year, mine was virtual and
I had had a baby literallythree days before that.
It.
And so my.
I was like, not in my rightmind yet, but I just remember.
(08:30):
I don't remember much of theinterview because I think I time
traveled, but yeah, you havean interview, a jury of your peers
essentially asks you a bunchof questions about your plans.
What do you want to do?
Why do you think you should?
You know, like any jobinterview, and if it goes well, the
next thing that happens, youget a call from the mayor of the
city to let you know, whichagain, like, who gets a call from
the mayor, you know, that kindof thing to let you know that you
have gotten the job.
(08:51):
And it's.
It's.
It goes for two years.
And in that two years, youjust try to do as much as you can.
It never feels like enoughtime, but it's also a lot of time.
And so of course I have manythoughts about, oh, this is what
I could have done differently.
But I think that's the beautyof it, is that each new poet laureate
gets to bring their own sauceand do it in their own way.
It truly is like, it's alifetime honor.
You only get to do it once.
And it feels very bucket listish that that's something that has
(09:14):
happened in my career already,you know.
Yeah, that is beautiful.
And I feel like there are somany things I want to touch on based
on just even that responsealone that you just shared, just
how you had, you know, givingbirth, brought life into the world
and had to go and show up forthat interview.
How has, you know, being aparent, having able to navigate parenting
(09:37):
and Your career.
What does that look like for you?
Because I know that parenting is.
Is quite, you know, is quitevery hands on for a lot of folks.
So how do you navigate that?
It's funny, I was justwatching your.
I think it was the one beforethis one about motherhood.
I was just thinking I probablycould have been on this one because,
like, yes, I think you don't.
(10:00):
You know, one of my friendsalways says you get to have it all,
but not all at once.
And I think that.
That parenting or motherhoodteaches you that, like it's largely
sacrificial.
Your pace changes, where youcan commit your time to changes,
your mind changes, it changesyou and for the better sometimes.
(10:21):
And sometimes there's a partof you that is gone forever and you
have to mourn that loss as well.
I've been lucky in the sensethat I think I've still created quite
vigorously, even throughmothering two children.
But I certainly know that,like the girl who arrived in Lagos
in 2020, 2012, 2013,unencumbered, could do so many more
(10:42):
things at a very differentkind of pace than I can now.
But because they light up mylife, it doesn't seem like I'm losing
anything by spending an extra10 minutes reading a book to my daughter
that I could have beenspending doing something else.
And so I kind of like, I'vegotten better, I think, at holding
the two things, giving thetime to what needs the time and doing
(11:04):
and being focused there andthen turning my face towards the
other thing.
Yeah, I think motherhood hasmade me more expansive than I was
before.
I think there's a deeper senseof meanness that exists now and like
a deeper kind of love.
And my children, the way thatthey view the world, the way that
everything is novel and brandnew, feels like something that as
(11:25):
a creator that I could learnfrom, like that kind of sense of
endless wonder, you know, so it's.
It's been a blessing.
Madly difficult, don't get mewrong, physically, all the things.
But, you know, we're here, youknow, and I wouldn't take any of
it, any of it back.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I know that I feel likesometimes it's always very personally,
(11:46):
I feel I don't know how toapproach that conversation with folks
because, you know, it comes upin conversation.
Actually, I don't want it tofeel like, you know, I don't want
folks feel like they have tochoose between.
I'm great at my job, you know,I'm great at parenting.
Or, you know, I feel like weall navigate this very differently,
and you're.
Going to be messing up on one.
(12:09):
You know, we show up in theway that we can, but in a way that
is authentic to who we are also.
So I really appreciate yousharing that, too.
I think that I want to talk about.
I want to go back a little bitbecause I want to go to Nigeria.
I want to talk about Nigeria alittle bit.
Sure.
But I also want to figure out,like, the love and passion for poetry
as your form of artistic expression.
(12:30):
Like, where did that come from?
And when did you.
When did.
When did that spark light upin you?
That, okay, maybe it'ssomething that I want to do very
professionally.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like mostartists, when you ask that question,
have, like, this childhooddream kind of storyline.
And I don't really, you know,like, I was a kid who.
I'm the last of four girls.
(12:51):
We grew up in a largely, like,a very protective household.
And so we had a lot of booksbecause it was like, you stay in
the house, you read yourbooks, that kind of vibe.
And so we.
I've always been immersed inreading and storytelling, and my
father is a big love lover ofthe arts, and so he introduced us
to classical music, earlypiano, all of those things.
So I think I was.
I had a pretty rich artisticlife even as a child, but it wasn't
(13:13):
something I considered doing.
I.
I remember I had an uncle whowas a playwright and, like, would
put us in his plays.
And.
And.
And I recognize that as a fun thing.
I don't know that I had aconcept for, like, making a life
out of that.
I started writing quite young,but not poetry.
My.
I tell the story often.
My mother was a working woman.
She traveled quite a bit, andwhenever she would go out of town,
(13:33):
she would give me a notebookand just say, okay, when I'm gone,
just write down everythingthat happened.
If your sister pushed you,puts it there, all of the kind of
things.
And I call that, like, my.
My first introduction toembellishing and storytelling and
just writing nonsense, youknow, So I have like.
Like, I have a timeline ofbeing introduced to the arts and
storytelling.
But I didn't grow up thinking,I want to be a poet.
(13:55):
I didn't even know what that was.
But I think we moved to Canadawhen I was 13.
And at teenage, that age isvery pivotal for a young girl.
And I was just trying tofigure out what I was and of course,
started writing these, like,angsty, ragey teenage diatribes and
poems.
That weren't going to reallygo anywhere.
But I had a teacher, both injunior high and in high school, who
(14:18):
read a piece that I hadwritten for a class project and made
such a big deal out of it thatI was like, what is happening?
I just written my normal.
Whatever I thought I was writing.
You know, it was like, okay,come share it in front of the class.
And, oh, let's use this for,you know.
You know, there was just allthis, like, momentum around this
one thing.
And I think that was my firstinkling that the work that I created
could extend beyond me.
(14:39):
Like, people could have a real reaction.
It wasn't just this internalfiguring out.
It was like an outward expression.
But of course, I went on andstudied engineering like a good girl
would and worked as anengineer for many years.
Built roads throughout this city.
But I would still write on the side.
I started an open mic thatwent on for 10 years.
(15:00):
Every Tuesday, we would shareour poems.
So it just felt like a kind ofan outlet.
There was a lot of momentumaround my work that I started to
pick up that let me know thatthere was something there.
You know, I was being invitedto things, invited to workshops,
invited to perform places.
And I guess it felt like azooming in on, like, I knew I love
stories.
I love being in conversationwith other people.
(15:23):
And then slowly, over time, myvision kind of narrowed, and I, like,
locked in on, like, what partof this.
What style of this feels most me.
And once I locked in, it waslike I couldn't unsee the thing.
And I.
And I went on to blow up mylife in service of that.
You know, I was like, yeah, ifI'm not doing that, like, why would
I be doing anything else?
(15:44):
And it made sense to me at the time.
Of course, now,retrospectively, I'm like, were you.
A little bit.
Are you okay?
But I think.
I think it worked out.
So.
Regrets.
But it took me, I guess, insummary, it took me a long time to
figure out what it was, But Ijust knew that there was something
in the world of creation, inthe world of storytelling and.
And community, that I wantedto be a part of.
Yeah.
And that.
And that brought you to Nigeria.
(16:06):
Yeah.
Where, you know, you didpoetry, you put out an album, swim,
that I actually really like.
And you also were an actor.
Do you.
Do you ever think about that?
That you were a lead actor onone of Nigeria's.
That was a popular show.
It was a popular time.
How did that happen?
(16:26):
So I'd watched the show beforewhile I was in you know, it was a
YouTube original or I don'tknow what the correct term is.
So I'd watched it here and Iremember thinking, oh, that's like.
At the time it was like,really not like new and novel, like
this kind of YouTube series.
And I just thought it was so cool.
But I.
After I resigned myengineering job, I was like, I'm
going to move back to Lagos atthis time.
I'd been back to Lagos a few times.
I'd go to Bogobiri and belike, oh, there's, you know.
(16:48):
You know, Bogobri was amoment, right?
And so I knew that there waslike a community of artists that
I wanted to be a part of.
I had no plan beyond that,just that I needed to be inside of
where the happening was happening.
So I was like, I'll go back toLagos and see what's up with family.
And I was really well takencare of so that I could like, just
kind of figure out myself.
Anyway, in the process, I wasinvited, I think, through like, my
(17:10):
Bogobiri appearances.
I had come to know Bem Yoda,who is a music, a musician whose
work I love.
And Bem was do.
I just moved back to Lagosmaybe two or three days before.
And Bem had said, oh, I'mdoing this show.
It was at like, Ocean Basketor something, like a seafood restaurant.
I'm doing this show and it'sgoing to be called Bem Yoda and Friends.
Will you come and perform apoem or two?
And I said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
(17:30):
And so I went and did this performance.
And I think while I was on thestage, Jade Osiberu and Lala Kin
Doju came to the event becausethey were friends of Bem and saw
me perform.
Or maybe I hadn't evenperformed yet.
I'm not sure.
But there was something aboutlike, you know, there's an opening
in this television series andyou look like.
Seem like one of the characters.
Have you ever considered.
Lala came up and said, had youever considered acting?
(17:52):
And again, because I say yesto everything, because I'm like,
sure.
I was like, okay, yeah, I haveconsidered acting.
Had not considered acting.
And so I got like auditionslides in my email and just told
to come to the Ndani officeand audition for this thing.
I mean, I couldn't act, but Ihad been memorizing and performing
poetry for years at this point.
So I'm like, in the veryleast, I will know my lines inside
(18:12):
my body and then I'll show upand just make it do what it do.
And so I arrived there andthere was like, you know, a bunch
of people auditioning who Icome to find out had already.
There was like a pre auditionthat had happened, but I kind of
like jumped a step or something.
And so I'm feeling reallyintimidated because I'm seeing like
Nigerian actors are in the room.
And me, I'm just there on vibes.
I don't even, because I just.
I didn't have any.
(18:33):
There was no stakes.
The stakes were zero.
You know, I was happy to gohome and say, this was a funny thing
that happened to me.
Right.
But I auditioned and theaudition, I didn't know at the time,
but obviously the auditionwent well.
And I think one of the thingsthat may have solidified things,
maybe even more, was thatSomkele came to do like a chemistry
test.
Somkele is my best friend.
(18:54):
On Giddy up, the show, Iplayed a character called Eki and
we had like went back andforth with some lines and something
that was so generous in thatscene making with me.
And it just felt so naturaland just like, oh, yeah, this is
my girl.
I've known her, I just met herand now she's a lifelong friend,
you know, that kind of thing.
So there's.
I think there was just aseries of happy coincidences that
(19:16):
made that possible.
Anyways, I auditioned, I wenthome and faced my life, and then
a few weeks later I got thejob and then realized, oh, now you
actually have to act on atelevision series with episodes and
chunks of script and things tosay and say it convincingly.
And I would say the team wasincredibly generous to me because
(19:38):
everybody was aware that I hadno idea what I was doing.
But I think I had theopportunity to work along with like
seasoned directors andproducers and other actors, and they
carried me, quite frankly.
It was a joyful experience.
I learned a lot and I think itopened up for me a new portal even
of people who startedfollowing my poetry, because then
my poetry was introduced intothe show and suddenly I had a new
(20:00):
audience of people who didn'tknow I was a poet who now did.
And.
And I think that was like areal, like, real engine forward for
the rest of the things I didafter Giddy up, which, yeah, it was
great.
A moment in time.
A moment in time.
And I really love that.
And I think that some thingshappen in our lives to spark something
new.
You know, it's just like yousaid, an engine, a catalyst for something.
(20:20):
Maybe Giddy up.
That was what it was for youat the time, I'm going to bring it
back to Sis, which is yourthird spoken word album, and I'm
going to read something thatyou wrote on Instagram about the
album and you said, I offeredthis as an invitation to see the
sacred bond of sisterhood asits own worthy love story.
Imperfect, wild and beautiful.
(20:41):
I hope this work meets youexactly where you are.
I pray.
Inspires you to reach out yourhands to draw near or let go as needed.
It is rooted in my belief inart, as powerful as a powerful location
for healing.
I think that is the mostbeautiful summary I have seen about
an album.
And I'm not female, but I grewup with a lot of, you know, women.
(21:03):
I have.
I grew up.
I have mostly sisters.
And I always.
When I was even, like,younger, I would tell my sisters
that they were my foreverfriends, right?
And I found it very moving.
And I love the project.
I love Mercy.
I love Amen.
But, yeah, but I want to justknow what is the creative person.
What was the creative processfor that album like for you?
(21:24):
Yo, I think even before I didthe album, when I said I just had,
like, I was like, oh.
I think my next album is aboutsisterhood, about friendship, like,
platonic love.
And I remember, like, a lot ofthe conversations I would have be
like, why are you alwayswriting about women?
Like, are you not tired?
And I feel like there'sendless places to go.
The reason this was such atopical and urgent thing for me is,
(21:46):
is because of my ownexperience of sisterhood.
For better, for worse, right?
So I've been.
I've been blessed, elevated,empowered, loved in my relationships
with women in my sisterhoods.
But also I've been wounded andwounded and been heartbroken.
Like, all of that exists inthat space.
So for me, the process ofmaking the album was like exploration
(22:08):
and wayfinding.
Right?
I didn't come into it thinkingthis is exactly.
I didn't.
I know the expectation isprobably like, a Rara sisterhood
album.
Everything is fantastic, butthere's quite some, like, there's
some painful work on the album.
And so it was important for meto try to tell the truth of it.
To try to tell the truth ofeven sisterhood bonds by blood and
how they break down.
(22:29):
To try to tell the truth ofhow, like, a falling out with a friend
feels as painful as anyromantic heartbreak.
To try to tell the truth aboutwhere I have fallen short.
And so it was just like I waslike, I was.
I was looking at all of myrelationships in that way and just
like, pulling the threads andtrying to figure out what felt most
honest to say.
(22:50):
Because every time, like, Imean, it would have been easy enough
to just say, you know, women,you lift me up.
Amazing.
Which is true.
But what is more true is thatpeople have muddy and sticky and
complicated relationships witheach other, sisterhood or not.
There's this sense in whichthe closer you get, the deeper you
get, the more potential forpain and suffering, you know, because
it's like you're in it, likeyou're enmeshed, right?
(23:12):
And so I just started writingthese poems one after the other.
I started first with my ownrelationship with my sister by blood
and.
And how tangled and messy thathas been.
And use that as kind of thelocation for what informs the way
in which I move in friendships.
And then just kind of likestarted plucking through and worked
really closely with Melafreek.
They're the band thatperformed with me in Lagos in December
(23:34):
of 2023.
Most like swim and sis is all Melafique.
The voice is Rewoir mainly,but also Yaa.
And they're musicians who arealso friends and family.
We have a really, reallyfantastic working relationships.
I get in the studio withEnoch, who produced, engineered,
composed.
He did all the things.
Anything you hear is him.
And I just say to him, theseare the poems.
(23:55):
I start sharing the poems, andhe goes off and does his own and
is actually listening to thethings that I'm saying and responding
to them.
I feel like that cohesion inmusic and poetry is so important.
It's not just like there's apoem, you just slap an instrumental
together.
There's like some realresponsive bits of music in there,
which I think Enoch does masterfully.
And so, yeah, once the text iswritten, there's like a rough recording.
(24:17):
He makes the music.
I go back and continue to editand polish.
And then we find a midpointand start, like, deciding what to
keep, what stays, what goes,what matters, what doesn't, maybe
what feels like it's for thenext thing.
And then before you know it,there's an album and.
And then you have to hope thatit is received in the energy that
it was created, that itmatters to people.
(24:39):
But that part I can't control,you know, but the process to me is
always is like partmeditation, part prayer, part hopes
and dreams.
I'm just trying to figure itout, like on the page, you know,
But.
And it does matter, you know,it matters to people, to the people
who engage people who come toyour shows and hear music and the
(25:00):
poetry live and how they'reable to be cohesive.
You know what I'm saying?
Like you said, it's not likeyou're slapping music on a poem.
It's like they were made together.
They were made to be together.
And anybody that comes.
And even.
Even just seeing you, I've never.
Which is really sad that I'veseen you perform many times.
(25:21):
And I've never been to a TitiLockwood show, which I'm really,
like, bummed about, becauseevery time is that there was always
something for.
There was always a reason whyI wasn't.
I wasn't available to attend.
But it always looks so verywell intentioned, from, like, the
staging to the set to thelighting, to just.
(25:41):
Everything just looks very,very intentional.
So, yeah, your work reallydoes matter to.
I'm glad to hear that you canbe intentional because I spend an
unnatural amount of timeruminating over the details to the
point of stress.
But I'm glad.
I'm glad that it translates.
Yeah, yeah, it does really translate.
And the clips that I seeonline, you know, are just breathtaking.
(26:02):
And I'm sure the folks who arein the room, too.
I know a couple of people whohave been to some of the shows in
Lagos, and they're like, wow,it was such an experience, you know,
And I feel like.
I feel like there.
There has to be room, and I want.
I want to hear your thoughtson this.
I feel like there has to beroom for the expansiveness of what
poetry can be.
Not necessarily so that I canbe mainstream.
You know, I don't think thegoal is.
(26:24):
And it could be right to bemainstream, and nothing is wrong
with that either.
But I think that there has tobe room for us to be able to move
past what the world sees aswhat preach is supposed to look like
and sound like, or what spokenwords should look like and sound
like.
Black people.
Right.
There's a way that people.
We want spoken word to be ornot be.
(26:45):
But what are your thoughts on that?
How can we be more expansivewith how.
How we engage with poetry, howwe make poetry and how we consume
it in itself?
Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot oftime, like, wanting to be legitimized
by, like, I don't know, theliterary world in ways that I just
never was.
Like, I've just never madesense in that one particular way.
(27:09):
And I found that once Iremoved my hand and just started
doing the things that weremeaningful and fun and enjoyable
to me, I didn't have to worryas much about what the expectations
were I was able to kind ofbuild my own tribe, and the tribe
trusts and comes with me.
And at some point, you have todecide as an artist that that is
enough.
Right.
(27:29):
I think that I'm a poet who isless preoccupied by.
By the rules and therulemaking and more preoccupied by,
does this work actuallyconnect with people?
Even when I was a student atschool and I was listening to poems
I didn't understand, I oftenwould think, like, if I.
(27:49):
The reader, if I don't get it,then what's, you know, like.
For me, it matters that theaudiences understand the work, that
it feels meaningful to them.
And the work of beingaccessible or the work of being clear
and oftentimes simplistic isalso still work.
You know, I think that in allart making, we owe it to artists
(28:12):
to allow them to try things.
You know, this opera that wasnominated for the Dora, I remember
a friend of mine came to watchit and was like, I'm not sure.
You know, like, I didn't.
It didn't feel like you.
And we had a really, reallybeautiful conversation about the
ability to try things.
Like.
And what I'm always searchingfor is this ability as an artist,
(28:33):
as a poet, as a maker ofthings, to touch my hand to something
and let it even be bad, youknow, like, let it not be good.
But I think what kills artistsis this, like, very rigid box of.
Of like, what you can orcannot do.
But I reserve the right tofail publicly.
I reserve the right to.
For you to say, oh, yeah, Isaw her attempt some kind of strange
(28:54):
opera thing.
It wasn't good.
Okay?
But it happened.
It is a thing that happened.
You know what I mean?
And so I just.
As audiences, as people whoenjoy art, I think we owe it to art
makers to let them try, youknow, for an artist to release an
album.
And you say, ah, I didn't like it.
It wasn't for me.
(29:14):
Okay?
Like, just the.
I think what fuels us is thisability to just touch your hand to
a thing and this iterativeprocess of getting better or going
in a different direction to doa thing without your being beholden
to an audience that is, like,ready to burn you at the stake because
it wasn't what they expectedfrom you.
It doesn't sound, you know,like all of the ways that we measure
(29:35):
ourselves.
I think that is what killsart, is why some artists will release
one killer album, and then,you know, it's like the fear of making
a second because it's not as good.
People loved Swim, but I hadto make Cis for better, for worse.
I had to make, I have to makeanother thing.
And yeah, I think just moregenerosity at the level of being
able to watch people be in thearena do it messily, do it in a way
(29:59):
that is maybe a little bitcringe and, and sticking with them
till the next thing you know,I try to be less.
Like I'm always inside of thecringe and even when I'm promoting
my work and making, I'm justlike, but I'm going to do it anyway,
you know, like let the cringebe cringing and let me continue to
press on because I've decidedthat this is what I'm here to do
(30:21):
and none of our years areguaranteed and I'm not going to waste
much more of it like worryingabout who thinks it's poetry or not,
who thinks it's good enough ornot, who thinks it's award winning
or not.
Like, who cares?
That's real.
I feel like you kind of likeministered to me.
I gotta pass the play when yousaid be in the cringe.
(30:42):
And I feel like personally Ifeel like that's what I'm navigating
right now.
I think that being it, I feellike I was a, as a journalist, someone
who was a journalist, youknow, for most of my life and now
having to making contentonline, it's cringy and I don't think
folks understand how it feelsto upload a video of yourself talking
(31:04):
to your, your camera.
And so I'm like, God Harry,you know, if you could be in a proper
news station doing your thing.
But you saying be in thecringe is that is where the bust
of creative creativity comes from.
So I really appreciate you, Shar.
That, that, that, that is the word.
I will pass the plates.
(31:25):
Thank you.
You're doing the thing.
And like even as an observerof that, me like personally, I love
watching people try things.
I'm always rooting for peoplewhen they're trying things.
I'm just like, yeah, I see you.
Like I see the thing thatyou're making in real time.
I think, yes, we're hyperconnected and whatever but like it's
a real privilege that we getto watch people make things in real
(31:46):
time.
Like it's such a blessing tobe like, oh yes, I remember the first
video you uploaded.
Look at the 10th video or the 20th.
Like there's a sense in whichit feels like a real honor to watch
people grow and I think weshould celebrate that more.
That's real.
I have a question about thework I don't know if that is your
intention sometimes, but Ifeel like sometimes, you know, people
(32:07):
can label you like an advocateor an activist because of certain
themes in your work.
Is that a label that you hold onto?
Is that label that you.
You want, or are you justcreating from a.
And it just happens to fallalong those themes?
You know what I'm saying?
(32:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Yes and no.
Like, I'm not.
I'm not opposed to where mywork lands.
I think if you.
If you make work that isreflective of your values, then it
is natural for it to feel likeadvocating because you're talking
about things that matter toyou and to other people.
And so I guess mypreoccupation is that, like, let
(32:47):
my work reflect my values, letmy work reflect my views of the world,
that my work reflects theworld I want to live in, and then
let people receive that how itlands for them.
Did I come into this workwanting to be like, with that label
in mind?
No.
But naturally, if I make workthat feels that way, then, sure,
(33:08):
I'll take it, but it's not.
I'm an imperfect.
I always thought, like, I'm animperfect person learning in real
time and making imperfectdecisions, and would want some grace
and mercy in that regard,because I also have seen what we
do to people who are advocatesfor anything.
I see how quickly they fallfrom grace and shattered by the draw.
(33:29):
But I think I'm open to learning.
I'm like.
My eyes are always open, andI'm hopeful that people feel like
my work is a safe place and can.
Can see that reflected back to them.
You know, some awesome.
And I remember you had a bookout, a collection of poems.
So, you know, I know folks arelike, God, she's done acted.
(33:51):
She's done an album.
She has a book out.
Yes, there is.
This is How We Disappear,which I also absolutely loved.
I have a copy of that.
Are we getting.
Are we gearing up anothercollection of poems, like an anthology?
Is that in works, or is thatso much pressure?
I think I have publish,publishing, ptsd.
(34:12):
I think that, like, that is inan arena that I have not quite gotten
a grasp on.
This Is How We Disappear cameas a surprise to a lot of people
who had followed my work overthe years because it's quite a departure
from.
If you listen to Swim and readthis Is How We Disappear, they could
be two different people,subject matter, style, et cetera.
(34:33):
Again, a time ofexperimentation and trying to, like,
figure out what, like, a pageversion of my work would look like.
There Is like, I got into aresidency in Scotland a couple of
years ago and wrote the veryshabby first draft of a novel that
I intend to finish.
And, yes, absolutely.
Another collection.
I think I'm, just, to put itplainly, afraid, I think a part of
(34:56):
me.
I'll put it this way.
I'm very comfortable inperformance spaces because I call
performance the final edit.
Performance is transient andforgiving in that each time I perform
a poem, I can change a littlebit of it in real time, and the audience
is there with me.
And when it's finished, it's finished.
Unless, of course, I make avideo or whatever.
But in text, it feels morerigid and it feels more locked in
(35:19):
place in a way that I haven't quite.
That I haven't quite become ascomfortable with as I would like.
And so I think that's why it's slower.
Like, there's slower output onthe print side of things for my work,
because I think theperfectionist tendency in me wants
whatever I lock down on thepage eternally to be like, you know,
I'm not quite as forgiving ofmyself as I am in performance when
(35:39):
I don't get it right.
And then I can edit it andthen I can change it the next time,
you know, So I guess to speaktruthfully and not give you a canned
response is that for me, thatis, like, my largest pain point that
I'm still trying to navigate.
I know that people desire mywork in print so they can hold it
in more, like, tangible ways.
Ways.
And I'm just trying to figureout a way that feels good for me.
(36:02):
Yeah, that's real.
And that's a journey only youcan figure out.
You know, regardless of what,you know, the audience wants, you
know, you have to also becomfortable with the art that you're
putting out to, you know, Irespect that.
Thank you for answering that.
I'm going to make it getthings a little bit lighter, a little
bit.
I'm going to do, like, alittle fun.
A little fun and trivia stuff.
(36:24):
What are, like, the top threesongs on your playlist right now?
Okay.
My phone is beside me so Iwon't tell lies I'm listening to
a lot of SA House.
I listen to it.
They do well.
They're doing really good.
There's a song, and I'm sureI'm pronouncing it, it's called Isaka.
It's by an artist called C I Z A.
So any anything in the SAHouse, I'm a piano universe is a
(36:46):
bit of Me.
What else am I listening to?
Uncle Waffles.
New York Waffles.
I love Uncle Waffles.
Yes, of course.
There's a little slice ofMoana, the soundtrack in here.
Okay, okay, I'm listening to it.
But is it like Moana, thefirst one or the second one?
Very specific.
(37:07):
Okay, okay.
I.
I've had mixed reviews about the.
The soundtrack of the second one.
Yes.
I mean, Lin Manuel.
I mean, come on.
There's like, I can feel theabsence in the second one.
But I think with multiplelessons, as you do with children,
I'm like, okay.
I think if we give this thinga chance, there's magic there too.
So.
Yeah, I'd say a healthy mix ofessay house, some gospel, too, as
(37:30):
well.
But then, also, like, a lot ofchildren's children that I feel like
that.
Is on every parent I ask, theyhave, like, you know, some level
of.
Yes.
When was this Disney film, The one.
It's not Coco.
Encanto, is it?
(37:51):
Encanto.
We don't talk about Bruno.
My niece.
Oh, my God, my niece rattlesdown with that song.
I was like, okay, okay.
I would talk about Brunoanymore, I.
Guess, but I just think he'ssuch a brilliant.
And that, to me, is like,there are many artists that.
I'm like, North Star ish.
Like, you know, I think aboutMaya Angelou.
(38:12):
Like, we talk about MayaAngelou as though she was just a
poet that was fixed in place.
But this woman did everything,you know, like, she did all kinds
of things.
And so to me, lyrics to songsare poetry.
I'm like, yeah, I could do achildren's album.
I think that would be cool.
Why not?
You had to hear first.
Working on the children's album.
Working on that, actually, youknow, give her a call quickly.
(38:33):
Yeah, please.
You know, do the thing.
What is your.
What's your favorite thing?
To snack on a popcorn.
It's horrible for my teeth,but any kind of popcorn, I'm with
it.
Salty sweets.
The mixture.
I like the mixture a lot.
Yeah.
I can't have popcorn anywherebecause I have braces now.
Oh, you do?
Yeah.
I have to.
I feel like I would still do it.
(38:55):
Oh, Lord, I miss.
I miss having popcorn.
I go to the movies.
It's just really nice to justkeep popping it in.
But anyways, what's yourfavorite holiday destination?
That's a very good question.
Or like, a dream destination Ireturn to over and over again.
But I think that there mustbe, like, I'm.
I need to be near the water.
There must be a beach.
There must be some kind ofocean view.
(39:16):
We got married in Santorini,and there was like, a kind of like.
Like, the scenes.
The scenes matter to me.
Somewhere warm.
Whatever fits into that category.
I'm down.
Okay.
I'm here for that.
I'm here for that.
What are three.
What are the.
Who are the three artists youhope you can collaborate with?
And, like, this is, like,recording artists.
Not, like, it could be anything.
(39:37):
Could be visual recording,performing artists that you just
really want to collaborate with.
Whatever medium they use is fine.
I have, like, a deep, unendinglove for Asha as a musician, and
if I were, like, to.
I feel like it'd be reallybeautiful to do some kind of poetry
and music merge with her.
(39:58):
I've always.
For better, for worse.
I'm a die hard Lauryn Hill fan.
I love Lauryn Hill.
And to me, like, a dreamscapecollaboration would be to, like,
do a Lauryn Hill track of somesort of.
Who else am I loving?
Yeva.
I think Yeva is, like, one ofthe greatest voices of our time.
I don't think Eva gets enoughflowers for the things that she does
(40:21):
with her voice.
Think.
I spent all of 2020 listeningto every thing she has ever opened
her mouth to sing.
And I think if I were to,like, collaborate with Ava, I would
think, yeah, you've done it, girl.
You've done it.
Yeah, I think those three.
That's pretty beautiful.
And I can see.
I can visualize that, youknow, with.
(40:43):
With Lauren, with Yeba, and.
Who was the first one?
Asha.
Yeah, I can visualize all of them.
It's like, with being really.
Let's put it into the.
You know, from your lips toGod's ears.
And finally, what is yourguilty pleasure?
Probably very bad television,I think, because I spend so much
(41:03):
of my time, like, inside of myhead making, like, what I consider
to be serious things andserious plans.
I, like.
I'm happy to, like, watch aLove island.
Things that are very lowstakes, but I have high entertainment
value.
I'm there.
Yeah.
What do you want the legacy ofyour work and your art to be?
(41:25):
I try not to.
To be sincere.
I try not to think too deeplyabout legacy.
Like, I try to be, like,really rooted in what I'm making
in real time.
I want for people whoencounter my work to feel just a
little bit less alone.
So if for nothing else, mywork made you feel more seen, more
heard, inspired you to dosomething more or different, like,
(41:46):
just made you feel like youwere not in a singular life experience.
I think I would have donewell, okay.
Okay.
Well, thank you.
I feel like your work inspires me.
It's very inspirational.
We really appreciate what youdo and the art that you have and
everything.
I am looking forward to more.
You know, whatever it is thatyou make, we're happy to support.
(42:08):
If you're ever in these UnitedStates, we will show up to whatever
event or reading or whateverit is you're doing.
We'll be there.
And I have to.
As you're giving the flowers,I have to throw them back.
And.
And just thank you for all thework that you do in all the ways
that you're always supporting,always hyping, always like you're
an ever present person on thisartist journey, which can be incredibly
(42:30):
lonely and, you know, all the things.
But, but thank you for, forbeing that sort of person.
I'm really excited for whatyou're creating in real time and
excited to be able to, like,bear witness to it.
So keep leaning into the cringe.
We're in the cringe together.
It's okay.
We won't.
We'll be fine.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
Yes, we are in the cringe together.
(42:53):
And if you made it to the endof this, thank you so much.
I really appreciate yousticking with us, listening to the
podcast and just learning andbeing on this journey with us.
Until the next one.
Odejuma.
Hi, my name is Harry, andwelcome to Odejuma.
Odejuma recognizes the magicof storytelling.
From personal experiences tostories of adventure, from tales
of resilience to finding joyin the simple things.
This story seeks to inspire,entertain, and educate because there
is power in the stories ofeveryday people, and these stories
(00:22):
are worth telling.
Hi, folks, and welcome toanother episode of Odejuma.
And for this one, I'm veryexcited because I have someone who
(00:42):
I deeply admire, who I deeplyrespect, who.
Their work is very moving,very inspirational.
I have Titi Lockwear Shonuga.
Hi, Titi.
How you doing?
Hi.
I'm well.
Thank you for having me.
I'm.
I'm honored.
And, yeah, that was a verykind introduction.
Thank you.
It is.
And I think that folks arealways blown away by your work.
(01:03):
I feel like.
Like your art is so beautifulto witness.
For folks who are not aware,Titi is a poet, Tutui is an artist.
Titui is a writer.
Titi is a multimediahyphenate, creative, and has the
awards and the credentials toback it up.
And so, yeah, I feel likeeverybody needs to be familiar with
(01:24):
your work.
And I feel like every time Icome across a poem or something that
you've put out or somethingthat you've done, it's a whole experience.
Experience.
Right.
And so just want to, in my ownway, give you your flowers and your
tens because it's very well deserved.
Very, very well deserved.
Thank you.
(01:45):
I think, you know, first ofall, congratulations on your nomination,
your Dora Awards nominationfor outstanding new musical and new
opera for your work inSankofa, the Soldier's Tale Retold.
And for folks who don't have.
Who need a context for whatthe Dora Awards is, America has the
(02:05):
Tonys, the British have theOliviers, Canadians have the Dora
Awards.
So that this is really huge.
So how are you feeling rightnow about this news?
I think I've settled a littlebit more.
Yeah.
I was truly gobsmackedbecause, like, this is.
That is not my world necessarily.
I'm a poet, and I have ageneral sense for how things work
(02:25):
in our world.
And so this was like a reallya new endeavor.
So I didn't have my mind on.
I didn't even know theannouncements were happening.
I was just in my life andsomebody tagged me on Instagram.
So I was stunned, truly by it,because it's a great honor.
And of course, as you know,nothing happens in isolation.
(02:45):
There's an incredible team ofpeople that made it happen.
The work was commissioned bythe Art of Time Ensemble and Directed
by Tawie McCarthy, who's anincredible Ghanaian Canadian director.
And so I just feel like therewere a lot of cooks and hands in
the soup pot.
And so it feels truly like.
Like this kind of belongs toall of us and the effort that we
made.
And so I was humbled, stunned.
(03:07):
And now I'm getting to a placeof, like, wow.
Like, this is.
This feels truly, for me,like, affirmation and just, like,
doing things that are unfamiliar.
I'd never written an opera before.
Like, what do I know aboutStravinsky's music?
Right.
And so it feels reallyaffirming to just, like, it's like,
just do the thing, and younever know what will happen next.
(03:29):
Yeah.
And it's fascinating.
You talk about, like, justdoing the thing, and I think that
that's something that we'veseen throughout your career so far,
like, progression and everything.
And even.
And I know this wasn't.
This wasn't opera, but Iremember back in Nigeria, you did,
like, an Adam musical, youknow, and I don't think that's the
only play you did.
Right.
You did.
You also.
You also did other, like,plays before.
(03:51):
Yeah, I would say that was,like, the biggest one.
Again, another thing wheresomeone's like, oh, can you write
a musical?
I'm like, yeah, of course.
Writes musicals.
Don't worry.
I had no idea what I was doing.
But yeah.
Yes.
You know, yeah, that was agood, good.
I loved another musical.
I thought it was really.
It was so moving when I saw it.
I still remember it.
(04:12):
And so, like, your work hasalways had pulls from different,
like, mediums.
Right.
Even though you're a poet, youincorporate music, you incorporate,
like, performance and allthese pieces.
Has that always been somethingthat has been intentional for you
as you're creating your work?
I mean, I think I just lovestories, and for me, like, that storytelling
(04:33):
is in everything.
I maybe beginning, I was,like, really invested in being a
poet, you know, and whatever Ithought that was.
But I think over time, andthis is like a decade plus of doing
this full time, what I'verealized is that every time I move
in the direction of what feels.
Feels exciting to me or feelstrue or feels joyful, then it really
(04:55):
doesn't matter what medium orgenre it fits into.
I'm just like, it feels most,like, the most urgent thing to do.
And I've.
I've trusted that instinct,and it's usually paid off.
And so I wouldn't say that Istarted off thinking in that way.
I think I started off quiteRigid, actually, as most young writers
do.
You have a very clear senseof, like, this is the kind of writer
I am.
But I think I've learned totake myself a little bit less seriously
(05:17):
and to just do the things thatI enjoy, things that light me up
and let that fall into anycategory that it fits into in the
end.
Yeah.
And of course, when I met you,you were.
You were.
I met you when you had movedback to Nigeria and, you know, now
you're back in Canada.
I feel like your work is movedby how you're rooted in these two
(05:39):
cultures and countries.
How does.
How does that inspire your artin any way?
Just living and living inbeing a Nigerian who's also Canadian,
and having those cultures intermix.
How does that show up in yourwork and in your art?
Yeah, I was really in Nigeria,like, on my dulu, had no.
(05:59):
What an era.
But I think it was also one ofmy most powerful eras.
Just like saying yes, youknow, that say yes to the universe
and just do the thing.
I'm really grateful for that.
I think we're.
You know, there's this.
I'm going to butcher thequote, but just wherever you are,
there you are.
You know, I feel like whetherI'm in Lagos in Nigeria or here in
Edmonton where I live, I'malways going to be kind of a mixture
(06:21):
of all the people, the places,the cultures, the stories, the songs
that have built me up.
And so that's always sort ofwith me.
I think my.
My work is less locationspecific and more like evolutions.
Like, where am I as a woman inthis timeline of my life?
What is important to me?
What is urgent to me?
And I write in that direction,always from the vantage point of
(06:42):
being, you know, a YorubaNigerian woman.
So there's like a sense inwhich that part of me is always integrated
in the work.
I feel like when I'm in.
In Nigeria, I'm there for theenergy, like, the electricity of
that, like, just the vibes.
And when I'm here, there's akind of more quiet lull to the pace
of my life that then allows meto be more reflective.
(07:04):
So I think I toggle betweenthe two places in that way.
Yeah, that is.
That is really beautiful to know.
Speaking of Edmonton, you werenamed the Edmonton Puerto Laurette.
First of all, how did I come about?
What does that entail?
How you feeling?
I feel like you're gettingyour flowers, you know, like I said
(07:25):
earlier, earlier on.
But that must have been huge,you know, for you.
Yeah.
An Honor again, another honoris just like this feeling of like,
you never know, you know.
So the poet laureate's job inthe city is to be kind of like a
literary ambassador for thecity of Edmonton, to tell the stories
of its people, its places, anddo that through poetry.
(07:46):
And everybody that fills therole gets to decide how they want
to do that.
But your job is essentially tobring poetry to the people and the
people to poetry, and do thisthrough this very specific Edmonton
lens.
How did it come about?
You at any point can apply.
So you turn in an applicationthat just says, yeah, I want to do
this thing.
Consider me.
And.
And then you submit and youget shortlisted or not.
(08:08):
And when you get shortlisted,you do an interview with a panel.
And for people before me, thatpanel was like, you know, in person
at City hall, it's like this thing.
But because I was.
I took the position in apandemic year, mine was virtual and
I had had a baby literallythree days before that.
It.
And so my.
I was like, not in my rightmind yet, but I just remember.
(08:30):
I don't remember much of theinterview because I think I time
traveled, but yeah, you havean interview, a jury of your peers
essentially asks you a bunchof questions about your plans.
What do you want to do?
Why do you think you should?
You know, like any jobinterview, and if it goes well, the
next thing that happens, youget a call from the mayor of the
city to let you know, whichagain, like, who gets a call from
the mayor, you know, that kindof thing to let you know that you
have gotten the job.
(08:51):
And it's.
It's.
It goes for two years.
And in that two years, youjust try to do as much as you can.
It never feels like enoughtime, but it's also a lot of time.
And so of course I have manythoughts about, oh, this is what
I could have done differently.
But I think that's the beautyof it, is that each new poet laureate
gets to bring their own sauceand do it in their own way.
It truly is like, it's alifetime honor.
You only get to do it once.
And it feels very bucket listish that that's something that has
(09:14):
happened in my career already,you know.
Yeah, that is beautiful.
And I feel like there are somany things I want to touch on based
on just even that responsealone that you just shared, just
how you had, you know, givingbirth, brought life into the world
and had to go and show up forthat interview.
How has, you know, being aparent, having able to navigate parenting
(09:37):
and Your career.
What does that look like for you?
Because I know that parenting is.
Is quite, you know, is quitevery hands on for a lot of folks.
So how do you navigate that?
It's funny, I was justwatching your.
I think it was the one beforethis one about motherhood.
I was just thinking I probablycould have been on this one because,
like, yes, I think you don't.
(10:00):
You know, one of my friendsalways says you get to have it all,
but not all at once.
And I think that.
That parenting or motherhoodteaches you that, like it's largely
sacrificial.
Your pace changes, where youcan commit your time to changes,
your mind changes, it changesyou and for the better sometimes.
(10:21):
And sometimes there's a partof you that is gone forever and you
have to mourn that loss as well.
I've been lucky in the sensethat I think I've still created quite
vigorously, even throughmothering two children.
But I certainly know that,like the girl who arrived in Lagos
in 2020, 2012, 2013,unencumbered, could do so many more
(10:42):
things at a very differentkind of pace than I can now.
But because they light up mylife, it doesn't seem like I'm losing
anything by spending an extra10 minutes reading a book to my daughter
that I could have beenspending doing something else.
And so I kind of like, I'vegotten better, I think, at holding
the two things, giving thetime to what needs the time and doing
(11:04):
and being focused there andthen turning my face towards the
other thing.
Yeah, I think motherhood hasmade me more expansive than I was
before.
I think there's a deeper senseof meanness that exists now and like
a deeper kind of love.
And my children, the way thatthey view the world, the way that
everything is novel and brandnew, feels like something that as
(11:25):
a creator that I could learnfrom, like that kind of sense of
endless wonder, you know, so it's.
It's been a blessing.
Madly difficult, don't get mewrong, physically, all the things.
But, you know, we're here, youknow, and I wouldn't take any of
it, any of it back.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I know that I feel likesometimes it's always very personally,
(11:46):
I feel I don't know how toapproach that conversation with folks
because, you know, it comes upin conversation.
Actually, I don't want it tofeel like, you know, I don't want
folks feel like they have tochoose between.
I'm great at my job, you know,I'm great at parenting.
Or, you know, I feel like weall navigate this very differently,
and you're.
Going to be messing up on one.
(12:09):
You know, we show up in theway that we can, but in a way that
is authentic to who we are also.
So I really appreciate yousharing that, too.
I think that I want to talk about.
I want to go back a little bitbecause I want to go to Nigeria.
I want to talk about Nigeria alittle bit.
Sure.
But I also want to figure out,like, the love and passion for poetry
as your form of artistic expression.
(12:30):
Like, where did that come from?
And when did you.
When did.
When did that spark light upin you?
That, okay, maybe it'ssomething that I want to do very
professionally.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel like mostartists, when you ask that question,
have, like, this childhooddream kind of storyline.
And I don't really, you know,like, I was a kid who.
I'm the last of four girls.
(12:51):
We grew up in a largely, like,a very protective household.
And so we had a lot of booksbecause it was like, you stay in
the house, you read yourbooks, that kind of vibe.
And so we.
I've always been immersed inreading and storytelling, and my
father is a big love lover ofthe arts, and so he introduced us
to classical music, earlypiano, all of those things.
So I think I was.
I had a pretty rich artisticlife even as a child, but it wasn't
(13:13):
something I considered doing.
I.
I remember I had an uncle whowas a playwright and, like, would
put us in his plays.
And.
And.
And I recognize that as a fun thing.
I don't know that I had aconcept for, like, making a life
out of that.
I started writing quite young,but not poetry.
My.
I tell the story often.
My mother was a working woman.
She traveled quite a bit, andwhenever she would go out of town,
(13:33):
she would give me a notebookand just say, okay, when I'm gone,
just write down everythingthat happened.
If your sister pushed you,puts it there, all of the kind of
things.
And I call that, like, my.
My first introduction toembellishing and storytelling and
just writing nonsense, youknow, So I have like.
Like, I have a timeline ofbeing introduced to the arts and
storytelling.
But I didn't grow up thinking,I want to be a poet.
(13:55):
I didn't even know what that was.
But I think we moved to Canadawhen I was 13.
And at teenage, that age isvery pivotal for a young girl.
And I was just trying tofigure out what I was and of course,
started writing these, like,angsty, ragey teenage diatribes and
poems.
That weren't going to reallygo anywhere.
But I had a teacher, both injunior high and in high school, who
(14:18):
read a piece that I hadwritten for a class project and made
such a big deal out of it thatI was like, what is happening?
I just written my normal.
Whatever I thought I was writing.
You know, it was like, okay,come share it in front of the class.
And, oh, let's use this for,you know.
You know, there was just allthis, like, momentum around this
one thing.
And I think that was my firstinkling that the work that I created
could extend beyond me.
(14:39):
Like, people could have a real reaction.
It wasn't just this internalfiguring out.
It was like an outward expression.
But of course, I went on andstudied engineering like a good girl
would and worked as anengineer for many years.
Built roads throughout this city.
But I would still write on the side.
I started an open mic thatwent on for 10 years.
(15:00):
Every Tuesday, we would shareour poems.
So it just felt like a kind ofan outlet.
There was a lot of momentumaround my work that I started to
pick up that let me know thatthere was something there.
You know, I was being invitedto things, invited to workshops,
invited to perform places.
And I guess it felt like azooming in on, like, I knew I love
stories.
I love being in conversationwith other people.
(15:23):
And then slowly, over time, myvision kind of narrowed, and I, like,
locked in on, like, what partof this.
What style of this feels most me.
And once I locked in, it waslike I couldn't unsee the thing.
And I.
And I went on to blow up mylife in service of that.
You know, I was like, yeah, ifI'm not doing that, like, why would
I be doing anything else?
(15:44):
And it made sense to me at the time.
Of course, now,retrospectively, I'm like, were you.
A little bit.
Are you okay?
But I think.
I think it worked out.
So.
Regrets.
But it took me, I guess, insummary, it took me a long time to
figure out what it was, But Ijust knew that there was something
in the world of creation, inthe world of storytelling and.
And community, that I wantedto be a part of.
Yeah.
And that.
And that brought you to Nigeria.
(16:06):
Yeah.
Where, you know, you didpoetry, you put out an album, swim,
that I actually really like.
And you also were an actor.
Do you.
Do you ever think about that?
That you were a lead actor onone of Nigeria's.
That was a popular show.
It was a popular time.
How did that happen?
(16:26):
So I'd watched the show beforewhile I was in you know, it was a
YouTube original or I don'tknow what the correct term is.
So I'd watched it here and Iremember thinking, oh, that's like.
At the time it was like,really not like new and novel, like
this kind of YouTube series.
And I just thought it was so cool.
But I.
After I resigned myengineering job, I was like, I'm
going to move back to Lagos atthis time.
I'd been back to Lagos a few times.
I'd go to Bogobiri and belike, oh, there's, you know.
(16:48):
You know, Bogobri was amoment, right?
And so I knew that there waslike a community of artists that
I wanted to be a part of.
I had no plan beyond that,just that I needed to be inside of
where the happening was happening.
So I was like, I'll go back toLagos and see what's up with family.
And I was really well takencare of so that I could like, just
kind of figure out myself.
Anyway, in the process, I wasinvited, I think, through like, my
(17:10):
Bogobiri appearances.
I had come to know Bem Yoda,who is a music, a musician whose
work I love.
And Bem was do.
I just moved back to Lagosmaybe two or three days before.
And Bem had said, oh, I'mdoing this show.
It was at like, Ocean Basketor something, like a seafood restaurant.
I'm doing this show and it'sgoing to be called Bem Yoda and Friends.
Will you come and perform apoem or two?
And I said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
(17:30):
And so I went and did this performance.
And I think while I was on thestage, Jade Osiberu and Lala Kin
Doju came to the event becausethey were friends of Bem and saw
me perform.
Or maybe I hadn't evenperformed yet.
I'm not sure.
But there was something aboutlike, you know, there's an opening
in this television series andyou look like.
Seem like one of the characters.
Have you ever considered.
Lala came up and said, had youever considered acting?
(17:52):
And again, because I say yesto everything, because I'm like,
sure.
I was like, okay, yeah, I haveconsidered acting.
Had not considered acting.
And so I got like auditionslides in my email and just told
to come to the Ndani officeand audition for this thing.
I mean, I couldn't act, but Ihad been memorizing and performing
poetry for years at this point.
So I'm like, in the veryleast, I will know my lines inside
(18:12):
my body and then I'll show upand just make it do what it do.
And so I arrived there andthere was like, you know, a bunch
of people auditioning who Icome to find out had already.
There was like a pre auditionthat had happened, but I kind of
like jumped a step or something.
And so I'm feeling reallyintimidated because I'm seeing like
Nigerian actors are in the room.
And me, I'm just there on vibes.
I don't even, because I just.
I didn't have any.
(18:33):
There was no stakes.
The stakes were zero.
You know, I was happy to gohome and say, this was a funny thing
that happened to me.
Right.
But I auditioned and theaudition, I didn't know at the time,
but obviously the auditionwent well.
And I think one of the thingsthat may have solidified things,
maybe even more, was thatSomkele came to do like a chemistry
test.
Somkele is my best friend.
(18:54):
On Giddy up, the show, Iplayed a character called Eki and
we had like went back andforth with some lines and something
that was so generous in thatscene making with me.
And it just felt so naturaland just like, oh, yeah, this is
my girl.
I've known her, I just met herand now she's a lifelong friend,
you know, that kind of thing.
So there's.
I think there was just aseries of happy coincidences that
(19:16):
made that possible.
Anyways, I auditioned, I wenthome and faced my life, and then
a few weeks later I got thejob and then realized, oh, now you
actually have to act on atelevision series with episodes and
chunks of script and things tosay and say it convincingly.
And I would say the team wasincredibly generous to me because
(19:38):
everybody was aware that I hadno idea what I was doing.
But I think I had theopportunity to work along with like
seasoned directors andproducers and other actors, and they
carried me, quite frankly.
It was a joyful experience.
I learned a lot and I think itopened up for me a new portal even
of people who startedfollowing my poetry, because then
my poetry was introduced intothe show and suddenly I had a new
(20:00):
audience of people who didn'tknow I was a poet who now did.
And.
And I think that was like areal, like, real engine forward for
the rest of the things I didafter Giddy up, which, yeah, it was
great.
A moment in time.
A moment in time.
And I really love that.
And I think that some thingshappen in our lives to spark something
new.
You know, it's just like yousaid, an engine, a catalyst for something.
(20:20):
Maybe Giddy up.
That was what it was for youat the time, I'm going to bring it
back to Sis, which is yourthird spoken word album, and I'm
going to read something thatyou wrote on Instagram about the
album and you said, I offeredthis as an invitation to see the
sacred bond of sisterhood asits own worthy love story.
Imperfect, wild and beautiful.
(20:41):
I hope this work meets youexactly where you are.
I pray.
Inspires you to reach out yourhands to draw near or let go as needed.
It is rooted in my belief inart, as powerful as a powerful location
for healing.
I think that is the mostbeautiful summary I have seen about
an album.
And I'm not female, but I grewup with a lot of, you know, women.
(21:03):
I have.
I grew up.
I have mostly sisters.
And I always.
When I was even, like,younger, I would tell my sisters
that they were my foreverfriends, right?
And I found it very moving.
And I love the project.
I love Mercy.
I love Amen.
But, yeah, but I want to justknow what is the creative person.
What was the creative processfor that album like for you?
(21:24):
Yo, I think even before I didthe album, when I said I just had,
like, I was like, oh.
I think my next album is aboutsisterhood, about friendship, like,
platonic love.
And I remember, like, a lot ofthe conversations I would have be
like, why are you alwayswriting about women?
Like, are you not tired?
And I feel like there'sendless places to go.
The reason this was such atopical and urgent thing for me is,
(21:46):
is because of my ownexperience of sisterhood.
For better, for worse, right?
So I've been.
I've been blessed, elevated,empowered, loved in my relationships
with women in my sisterhoods.
But also I've been wounded andwounded and been heartbroken.
Like, all of that exists inthat space.
So for me, the process ofmaking the album was like exploration
(22:08):
and wayfinding.
Right?
I didn't come into it thinkingthis is exactly.
I didn't.
I know the expectation isprobably like, a Rara sisterhood
album.
Everything is fantastic, butthere's quite some, like, there's
some painful work on the album.
And so it was important for meto try to tell the truth of it.
To try to tell the truth ofeven sisterhood bonds by blood and
how they break down.
(22:29):
To try to tell the truth ofhow, like, a falling out with a friend
feels as painful as anyromantic heartbreak.
To try to tell the truth aboutwhere I have fallen short.
And so it was just like I waslike, I was.
I was looking at all of myrelationships in that way and just
like, pulling the threads andtrying to figure out what felt most
honest to say.
(22:50):
Because every time, like, Imean, it would have been easy enough
to just say, you know, women,you lift me up.
Amazing.
Which is true.
But what is more true is thatpeople have muddy and sticky and
complicated relationships witheach other, sisterhood or not.
There's this sense in whichthe closer you get, the deeper you
get, the more potential forpain and suffering, you know, because
it's like you're in it, likeyou're enmeshed, right?
(23:12):
And so I just started writingthese poems one after the other.
I started first with my ownrelationship with my sister by blood
and.
And how tangled and messy thathas been.
And use that as kind of thelocation for what informs the way
in which I move in friendships.
And then just kind of likestarted plucking through and worked
really closely with Melafreek.
They're the band thatperformed with me in Lagos in December
(23:34):
of 2023.
Most like swim and sis is all Melafique.
The voice is Rewoir mainly,but also Yaa.
And they're musicians who arealso friends and family.
We have a really, reallyfantastic working relationships.
I get in the studio withEnoch, who produced, engineered,
composed.
He did all the things.
Anything you hear is him.
And I just say to him, theseare the poems.
(23:55):
I start sharing the poems, andhe goes off and does his own and
is actually listening to thethings that I'm saying and responding
to them.
I feel like that cohesion inmusic and poetry is so important.
It's not just like there's apoem, you just slap an instrumental
together.
There's like some realresponsive bits of music in there,
which I think Enoch does masterfully.
And so, yeah, once the text iswritten, there's like a rough recording.
(24:17):
He makes the music.
I go back and continue to editand polish.
And then we find a midpointand start, like, deciding what to
keep, what stays, what goes,what matters, what doesn't, maybe
what feels like it's for thenext thing.
And then before you know it,there's an album and.
And then you have to hope thatit is received in the energy that
it was created, that itmatters to people.
(24:39):
But that part I can't control,you know, but the process to me is
always is like partmeditation, part prayer, part hopes
and dreams.
I'm just trying to figure itout, like on the page, you know,
But.
And it does matter, you know,it matters to people, to the people
who engage people who come toyour shows and hear music and the
(25:00):
poetry live and how they'reable to be cohesive.
You know what I'm saying?
Like you said, it's not likeyou're slapping music on a poem.
It's like they were made together.
They were made to be together.
And anybody that comes.
And even.
Even just seeing you, I've never.
Which is really sad that I'veseen you perform many times.
(25:21):
And I've never been to a TitiLockwood show, which I'm really,
like, bummed about, becauseevery time is that there was always
something for.
There was always a reason whyI wasn't.
I wasn't available to attend.
But it always looks so verywell intentioned, from, like, the
staging to the set to thelighting, to just.
(25:41):
Everything just looks very,very intentional.
So, yeah, your work reallydoes matter to.
I'm glad to hear that you canbe intentional because I spend an
unnatural amount of timeruminating over the details to the
point of stress.
But I'm glad.
I'm glad that it translates.
Yeah, yeah, it does really translate.
And the clips that I seeonline, you know, are just breathtaking.
(26:02):
And I'm sure the folks who arein the room, too.
I know a couple of people whohave been to some of the shows in
Lagos, and they're like, wow,it was such an experience, you know,
And I feel like.
I feel like there.
There has to be room, and I want.
I want to hear your thoughtson this.
I feel like there has to beroom for the expansiveness of what
poetry can be.
Not necessarily so that I canbe mainstream.
You know, I don't think thegoal is.
(26:24):
And it could be right to bemainstream, and nothing is wrong
with that either.
But I think that there has tobe room for us to be able to move
past what the world sees aswhat preach is supposed to look like
and sound like, or what spokenwords should look like and sound
like.
Black people.
Right.
There's a way that people.
We want spoken word to be ornot be.
(26:45):
But what are your thoughts on that?
How can we be more expansivewith how.
How we engage with poetry, howwe make poetry and how we consume
it in itself?
Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot oftime, like, wanting to be legitimized
by, like, I don't know, theliterary world in ways that I just
never was.
Like, I've just never madesense in that one particular way.
(27:09):
And I found that once Iremoved my hand and just started
doing the things that weremeaningful and fun and enjoyable
to me, I didn't have to worryas much about what the expectations
were I was able to kind ofbuild my own tribe, and the tribe
trusts and comes with me.
And at some point, you have todecide as an artist that that is
enough.
Right.
(27:29):
I think that I'm a poet who isless preoccupied by.
By the rules and therulemaking and more preoccupied by,
does this work actuallyconnect with people?
Even when I was a student atschool and I was listening to poems
I didn't understand, I oftenwould think, like, if I.
(27:49):
The reader, if I don't get it,then what's, you know, like.
For me, it matters that theaudiences understand the work, that
it feels meaningful to them.
And the work of beingaccessible or the work of being clear
and oftentimes simplistic isalso still work.
You know, I think that in allart making, we owe it to artists
(28:12):
to allow them to try things.
You know, this opera that wasnominated for the Dora, I remember
a friend of mine came to watchit and was like, I'm not sure.
You know, like, I didn't.
It didn't feel like you.
And we had a really, reallybeautiful conversation about the
ability to try things.
Like.
And what I'm always searchingfor is this ability as an artist,
(28:33):
as a poet, as a maker ofthings, to touch my hand to something
and let it even be bad, youknow, like, let it not be good.
But I think what kills artistsis this, like, very rigid box of.
Of like, what you can orcannot do.
But I reserve the right tofail publicly.
I reserve the right to.
For you to say, oh, yeah, Isaw her attempt some kind of strange
(28:54):
opera thing.
It wasn't good.
Okay?
But it happened.
It is a thing that happened.
You know what I mean?
And so I just.
As audiences, as people whoenjoy art, I think we owe it to art
makers to let them try, youknow, for an artist to release an
album.
And you say, ah, I didn't like it.
It wasn't for me.
(29:14):
Okay?
Like, just the.
I think what fuels us is thisability to just touch your hand to
a thing and this iterativeprocess of getting better or going
in a different direction to doa thing without your being beholden
to an audience that is, like,ready to burn you at the stake because
it wasn't what they expectedfrom you.
It doesn't sound, you know,like all of the ways that we measure
(29:35):
ourselves.
I think that is what killsart, is why some artists will release
one killer album, and then,you know, it's like the fear of making
a second because it's not as good.
People loved Swim, but I hadto make Cis for better, for worse.
I had to make, I have to makeanother thing.
And yeah, I think just moregenerosity at the level of being
able to watch people be in thearena do it messily, do it in a way
(29:59):
that is maybe a little bitcringe and, and sticking with them
till the next thing you know,I try to be less.
Like I'm always inside of thecringe and even when I'm promoting
my work and making, I'm justlike, but I'm going to do it anyway,
you know, like let the cringebe cringing and let me continue to
press on because I've decidedthat this is what I'm here to do
(30:21):
and none of our years areguaranteed and I'm not going to waste
much more of it like worryingabout who thinks it's poetry or not,
who thinks it's good enough ornot, who thinks it's award winning
or not.
Like, who cares?
That's real.
I feel like you kind of likeministered to me.
I gotta pass the play when yousaid be in the cringe.
(30:42):
And I feel like personally Ifeel like that's what I'm navigating
right now.
I think that being it, I feellike I was a, as a journalist, someone
who was a journalist, youknow, for most of my life and now
having to making contentonline, it's cringy and I don't think
folks understand how it feelsto upload a video of yourself talking
(31:04):
to your, your camera.
And so I'm like, God Harry,you know, if you could be in a proper
news station doing your thing.
But you saying be in thecringe is that is where the bust
of creative creativity comes from.
So I really appreciate you, Shar.
That, that, that, that is the word.
I will pass the plates.
(31:25):
Thank you.
You're doing the thing.
And like even as an observerof that, me like personally, I love
watching people try things.
I'm always rooting for peoplewhen they're trying things.
I'm just like, yeah, I see you.
Like I see the thing thatyou're making in real time.
I think, yes, we're hyperconnected and whatever but like it's
a real privilege that we getto watch people make things in real
(31:46):
time.
Like it's such a blessing tobe like, oh yes, I remember the first
video you uploaded.
Look at the 10th video or the 20th.
Like there's a sense in whichit feels like a real honor to watch
people grow and I think weshould celebrate that more.
That's real.
I have a question about thework I don't know if that is your
intention sometimes, but Ifeel like sometimes, you know, people
(32:07):
can label you like an advocateor an activist because of certain
themes in your work.
Is that a label that you hold onto?
Is that label that you.
You want, or are you justcreating from a.
And it just happens to fallalong those themes?
You know what I'm saying?
(32:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Yes and no.
Like, I'm not.
I'm not opposed to where mywork lands.
I think if you.
If you make work that isreflective of your values, then it
is natural for it to feel likeadvocating because you're talking
about things that matter toyou and to other people.
And so I guess mypreoccupation is that, like, let
(32:47):
my work reflect my values, letmy work reflect my views of the world,
that my work reflects theworld I want to live in, and then
let people receive that how itlands for them.
Did I come into this workwanting to be like, with that label
in mind?
No.
But naturally, if I make workthat feels that way, then, sure,
(33:08):
I'll take it, but it's not.
I'm an imperfect.
I always thought, like, I'm animperfect person learning in real
time and making imperfectdecisions, and would want some grace
and mercy in that regard,because I also have seen what we
do to people who are advocatesfor anything.
I see how quickly they fallfrom grace and shattered by the draw.
(33:29):
But I think I'm open to learning.
I'm like.
My eyes are always open, andI'm hopeful that people feel like
my work is a safe place and can.
Can see that reflected back to them.
You know, some awesome.
And I remember you had a bookout, a collection of poems.
So, you know, I know folks arelike, God, she's done acted.
(33:51):
She's done an album.
She has a book out.
Yes, there is.
This is How We Disappear,which I also absolutely loved.
I have a copy of that.
Are we getting.
Are we gearing up anothercollection of poems, like an anthology?
Is that in works, or is thatso much pressure?
I think I have publish,publishing, ptsd.
(34:12):
I think that, like, that is inan arena that I have not quite gotten
a grasp on.
This Is How We Disappear cameas a surprise to a lot of people
who had followed my work overthe years because it's quite a departure
from.
If you listen to Swim and readthis Is How We Disappear, they could
be two different people,subject matter, style, et cetera.
(34:33):
Again, a time ofexperimentation and trying to, like,
figure out what, like, a pageversion of my work would look like.
There Is like, I got into aresidency in Scotland a couple of
years ago and wrote the veryshabby first draft of a novel that
I intend to finish.
And, yes, absolutely.
Another collection.
I think I'm, just, to put itplainly, afraid, I think a part of
(34:56):
me.
I'll put it this way.
I'm very comfortable inperformance spaces because I call
performance the final edit.
Performance is transient andforgiving in that each time I perform
a poem, I can change a littlebit of it in real time, and the audience
is there with me.
And when it's finished, it's finished.
Unless, of course, I make avideo or whatever.
But in text, it feels morerigid and it feels more locked in
(35:19):
place in a way that I haven't quite.
That I haven't quite become ascomfortable with as I would like.
And so I think that's why it's slower.
Like, there's slower output onthe print side of things for my work,
because I think theperfectionist tendency in me wants
whatever I lock down on thepage eternally to be like, you know,
I'm not quite as forgiving ofmyself as I am in performance when
(35:39):
I don't get it right.
And then I can edit it andthen I can change it the next time,
you know, So I guess to speaktruthfully and not give you a canned
response is that for me, thatis, like, my largest pain point that
I'm still trying to navigate.
I know that people desire mywork in print so they can hold it
in more, like, tangible ways.
Ways.
And I'm just trying to figureout a way that feels good for me.
(36:02):
Yeah, that's real.
And that's a journey only youcan figure out.
You know, regardless of what,you know, the audience wants, you
know, you have to also becomfortable with the art that you're
putting out to, you know, Irespect that.
Thank you for answering that.
I'm going to make it getthings a little bit lighter, a little
bit.
I'm going to do, like, alittle fun.
A little fun and trivia stuff.
(36:24):
What are, like, the top threesongs on your playlist right now?
Okay.
My phone is beside me so Iwon't tell lies I'm listening to
a lot of SA House.
I listen to it.
They do well.
They're doing really good.
There's a song, and I'm sureI'm pronouncing it, it's called Isaka.
It's by an artist called C I Z A.
So any anything in the SAHouse, I'm a piano universe is a
(36:46):
bit of Me.
What else am I listening to?
Uncle Waffles.
New York Waffles.
I love Uncle Waffles.
Yes, of course.
There's a little slice ofMoana, the soundtrack in here.
Okay, okay, I'm listening to it.
But is it like Moana, thefirst one or the second one?
Very specific.
(37:07):
Okay, okay.
I.
I've had mixed reviews about the.
The soundtrack of the second one.
Yes.
I mean, Lin Manuel.
I mean, come on.
There's like, I can feel theabsence in the second one.
But I think with multiplelessons, as you do with children,
I'm like, okay.
I think if we give this thinga chance, there's magic there too.
So.
Yeah, I'd say a healthy mix ofessay house, some gospel, too, as
(37:30):
well.
But then, also, like, a lot ofchildren's children that I feel like
that.
Is on every parent I ask, theyhave, like, you know, some level
of.
Yes.
When was this Disney film, The one.
It's not Coco.
Encanto, is it?
(37:51):
Encanto.
We don't talk about Bruno.
My niece.
Oh, my God, my niece rattlesdown with that song.
I was like, okay, okay.
I would talk about Brunoanymore, I.
Guess, but I just think he'ssuch a brilliant.
And that, to me, is like,there are many artists that.
I'm like, North Star ish.
Like, you know, I think aboutMaya Angelou.
(38:12):
Like, we talk about MayaAngelou as though she was just a
poet that was fixed in place.
But this woman did everything,you know, like, she did all kinds
of things.
And so to me, lyrics to songsare poetry.
I'm like, yeah, I could do achildren's album.
I think that would be cool.
Why not?
You had to hear first.
Working on the children's album.
Working on that, actually, youknow, give her a call quickly.
(38:33):
Yeah, please.
You know, do the thing.
What is your.
What's your favorite thing?
To snack on a popcorn.
It's horrible for my teeth,but any kind of popcorn, I'm with
it.
Salty sweets.
The mixture.
I like the mixture a lot.
Yeah.
I can't have popcorn anywherebecause I have braces now.
Oh, you do?
Yeah.
I have to.
I feel like I would still do it.
(38:55):
Oh, Lord, I miss.
I miss having popcorn.
I go to the movies.
It's just really nice to justkeep popping it in.
But anyways, what's yourfavorite holiday destination?
That's a very good question.
Or like, a dream destination Ireturn to over and over again.
But I think that there mustbe, like, I'm.
I need to be near the water.
There must be a beach.
There must be some kind ofocean view.
(39:16):
We got married in Santorini,and there was like, a kind of like.
Like, the scenes.
The scenes matter to me.
Somewhere warm.
Whatever fits into that category.
I'm down.
Okay.
I'm here for that.
I'm here for that.
What are three.
What are the.
Who are the three artists youhope you can collaborate with?
And, like, this is, like,recording artists.
Not, like, it could be anything.
(39:37):
Could be visual recording,performing artists that you just
really want to collaborate with.
Whatever medium they use is fine.
I have, like, a deep, unendinglove for Asha as a musician, and
if I were, like, to.
I feel like it'd be reallybeautiful to do some kind of poetry
and music merge with her.
(39:58):
I've always.
For better, for worse.
I'm a die hard Lauryn Hill fan.
I love Lauryn Hill.
And to me, like, a dreamscapecollaboration would be to, like,
do a Lauryn Hill track of somesort of.
Who else am I loving?
Yeva.
I think Yeva is, like, one ofthe greatest voices of our time.
I don't think Eva gets enoughflowers for the things that she does
(40:21):
with her voice.
Think.
I spent all of 2020 listeningto every thing she has ever opened
her mouth to sing.
And I think if I were to,like, collaborate with Ava, I would
think, yeah, you've done it, girl.
You've done it.
Yeah, I think those three.
That's pretty beautiful.
And I can see.
I can visualize that, youknow, with.
(40:43):
With Lauren, with Yeba, and.
Who was the first one?
Asha.
Yeah, I can visualize all of them.
It's like, with being really.
Let's put it into the.
You know, from your lips toGod's ears.
And finally, what is yourguilty pleasure?
Probably very bad television,I think, because I spend so much
(41:03):
of my time, like, inside of myhead making, like, what I consider
to be serious things andserious plans.
I, like.
I'm happy to, like, watch aLove island.
Things that are very lowstakes, but I have high entertainment
value.
I'm there.
Yeah.
What do you want the legacy ofyour work and your art to be?
(41:25):
I try not to.
To be sincere.
I try not to think too deeplyabout legacy.
Like, I try to be, like,really rooted in what I'm making
in real time.
I want for people whoencounter my work to feel just a
little bit less alone.
So if for nothing else, mywork made you feel more seen, more
heard, inspired you to dosomething more or different, like,
(41:46):
just made you feel like youwere not in a singular life experience.
I think I would have donewell, okay.
Okay.
Well, thank you.
I feel like your work inspires me.
It's very inspirational.
We really appreciate what youdo and the art that you have and
everything.
I am looking forward to more.
You know, whatever it is thatyou make, we're happy to support.
(42:08):
If you're ever in these UnitedStates, we will show up to whatever
event or reading or whateverit is you're doing.
We'll be there.
And I have to.
As you're giving the flowers,I have to throw them back.
And.
And just thank you for all thework that you do in all the ways
that you're always supporting,always hyping, always like you're
an ever present person on thisartist journey, which can be incredibly
(42:30):
lonely and, you know, all the things.
But, but thank you for, forbeing that sort of person.
I'm really excited for whatyou're creating in real time and
excited to be able to, like,bear witness to it.
So keep leaning into the cringe.
We're in the cringe together.
It's okay.
We won't.
We'll be fine.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I really appreciate that.
Yes, we are in the cringe together.
(42:53):
And if you made it to the endof this, thank you so much.
I really appreciate yousticking with us, listening to the
podcast and just learning andbeing on this journey with us.
Until the next one.
Odejuma.
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