Join Dr. Pete and the one and only Nikki Boyer as they discuss all things life, love, SEX and dying.
Nikki Boyer is a 3 x Emmy Award Winner, writer, actress, producer and founder of DYING FOR Media - she co-produced the smash hit podcast, "Dying for Sex" alongside her beloved best friend Molly who was diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 42. Molly lived life on her own terms through a journey of self-discovery and sexcapades -- she truly believed sex WAS life and the podcast documented her authentic journey. Molly tragically lost her battle with Stage 4 Breast Cancer and Nikki has since gone on to honor Molly's memory and the incredible life she lived in a fantastic new FX series, "Dying for Sex" based on the hit podcast, currently airing on Hulu.
Learn more about Nikki here:
https://wondery.com/shows/dying-for-sex/
https://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/dying-for-sex
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and, oh my god, do I have a
show for you today.
Nikki boyer is here and we goback in like the early 2000s
when she was working with mybest friend and now the podcast
producer lee, and we were inphilly and, uh, I was just
(00:37):
telling her that I stumbled uponthis podcast dying for sex,
which was on wondery.
So let me just tell you alittle bit about nikki before we
get into that.
So she's a three-time EmmyAward winner, writer, actress,
producer and founder of Dyingfor Media.
She co-produced the smash hitpodcast Dying for Sex alongside
her beloved friend Molly, whowe're going to talk about, who
was diagnosed with terminalcancer at the age of 42.
(01:00):
And so she lived her own termsand this really was what spoke
to me, by exploring her sexcapades, if you will.
And she truly was life.
And Nikki and Molly documentedthat together, which then became
this FX series, dying for Sex.
So it's currently airing onHulu and I'm thrilled, nikki,
that you're here today.
Welcome, how can this be?
(01:21):
20 years ago that we first met.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
First of all, you look, look good.
You don't look like you've aged.
We haven't seen each othersince we were in our early 20s,
which is great.
I'm a little older than you but, um, I'm so happy to see you
and any chance that I get totalk about this experience and I
get to talk about molly, itmakes me so happy.
So what a bonus I get to talkabout an old friend and my best
(01:44):
friend.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Well, I'm not a great friend, though, because we
haven't talked in a while Well,like 20 years and I forgot what
show.
So we were just putting thistogether before we got on air,
about like the show.
So you were, this was like whenyou're you said it was one of
your first jobs that you wereworking on.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, when I moved to LA I auditioned for a show
called perfect proposal, um onTLC where at the time it was, um
, mainly men that were proposingto their girlfriends.
I would love to do it modernday and do it now.
It'd be so, so fun.
But they were these crazy,wonderful surprise proposals and
we would create a ruse aroundit and I would be involved.
(02:21):
So I got to be a part of like Idon't even know like a hundred
marriage proposals it was.
I think we did like I mean, Idid so many episodes for for a
few years it was.
I was running around this wholecountry.
Um but that was the show, wasperfect proposal.
So I think that's how we met.
You weren't proposing to me,but you know you were.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You were, I think, auditioning for something, right
, that's what, lee said so I'mgoing to, let's go with that,
because you know, my memorydoesn't always serve me.
But so so 20 years and thenthis podcast has happened, so
right.
Right.
But so I was telling you beforewe got on that the podcast
really just fell in my lapbecause Wondery, I think, does a
(03:02):
wonderful job.
I know Right, I really does awonderful job, I know right, I
really really loved it.
So for me, I'm just so happy tohave you here because, as a
psychologist.
You have helped so many people.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do you know that that's so nice?
No, I mean, I guess kind ofFrom the DMs I'm getting on
Instagram, I can feel the rippleeffect is pretty profound.
So I think I have an idea, buttell me more.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So for me, you know the messages that I heard, and
before I even watched the series, the messages were about, you
know, living in the presentmoment.
It was about letting go ofsocial anxiety.
It was letting go of stigma.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It was letting go of perception.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know these roles, that we gender roles, you know
this.
You talk about modern dayproposals, modern day like
modern day woman.
You know, like that you, youempower people to be who they
were in that story and molly,you know, and I think a lot of
people are afraid of death oh mygosh.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, it's the one thing that for sure is going to
happen to all of us.
Yet we just don't talk about it.
Culturally, spiritually, wedon't even really talk about it
in terms of like religion.
We talk about it, but it's veryfactual and it's very like
detached, and I just I foundthat so interesting, that one
thing that connects us all, thatwe can for sure say that we're
all going to have an experiencesimilar, is that it's death, but
(04:22):
we don't ever talk about it.
So with Molly, she really didteach me that you could lean
into that and have really funconversations, and I don't know
if I would have been where I amnow in that journey if I
wouldn't have had her in my lifeto show me that when were you
in your life in that regard,spiritually, around death, you
know, before Molly was diagnosed?
(04:42):
Um, my dad had passed away in2005.
Oh my god, yes, it was while itwas, while I was doing.
Perfect proposal I had to leavethe show for like a good three
weeks to be there with my dadwhen he died, so I lost my dad.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
My dad was only 50, which is weird I'm about and I
was 30.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I love uncomfortable things.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
What Says nobody ever Right.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I loved to be around when things are messy.
I don't know why, maybe it'sbecause I just enjoyed chaos as
a kid, but I can.
Often I like to navigate peopleand say, okay, this is really
uncomfortable, this is weird, Iget it.
Let's kind of reset and can wemindfully do this together.
That always doesn't work superwell with my family, but I have
(05:33):
to say I just really craveddoing that, which is I mean I
have to tell you, pete, like Ireally thought for a minute that
I would be a psychologist or gointo mental health, and I was a
life coach for two or threeyears and I did answer the
phones at the suicide preventioncenter when people were
suicidal.
I would answer.
That was over COVID.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I learned, I went through the training and I did
that and the one response that Igot from my, my mentors they
were amazing, by the way amazinghumans that work at the suicide
prevention center.
They're like you stay on thecalls for way too long If
they're not high risk.
Nikki, you have to get off thephone and I would be like, but
Gary and I are best friends nowI don't want to get off the
(06:16):
phone.
So then I went into lifecoaching because I thought, oh,
then I can have more time withmy clients and then, and then
the show kind of kicked off.
But I have to say, doing thiswith Molly felt like an
extension of that work that Iwas doing.
So, yeah, I love to, I love totalk about uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I guess that makes sense.
Then to how I felt, Like Ithink the education that you
gave people thank you.
I don't.
Maybe I should have known thatabout you, but that I mean, how
would you yeah Well, but thathelps to know, because I
actually in class last night.
We were talking about sometimesthey have to keep people on
hold in the suicide hotline.
Yes, right, yeah, that's reallynot great.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Well, there's a hotline.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And that's if you are really feeling like you are
going to kill yourself.
And then there is the warm line, which is where you can call
when you're having ideation,when you're feeling like you're
considering it, but you want tojust really check in and talk
with somebody, and so I wouldhave been great on the warm
lines, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well now I mean, thankfully people had you there,
but so so when Molly wasdiagnosed, you know, so you had
gone through a little bit ofyour own journey around your
dad's death.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
You had been a life coach, you had done the suicide
hotline right.
You'd already done that.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You know what sorry timeline I know no, it's
actually really valuable for meto go back.
My dad had passed.
I was with him when he died.
It was a three-day process itwas very.
I was very present during thatyeah and so I think my dad
always I'm like thank you forgiving me like the roadmap to
how to be with molly.
I think my dad for that.
All the time I, yeah, I think Ithink I had gone through, yes,
(07:44):
yes, because Molly would be likewhat are you doing today, can
you come to the hospital?
And I'd be like I have to goanswer the phones at the suicide
prevention center.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
And she'd be like she'd be like what's?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
more important Strangers that might die, or
your best friend and I'd be likewe would laugh and have such a
morbid conversation, but then Iwould go to the hospital right
after.
So it was during the same time,pete.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Thank you, because I don't think I remembered that
yeah, yeah, well, and maybe thatset you up a little bit, like
to kind of understand thatthere's endings.
And you know, to say it'suniversal is like really, um,
intellectual, you know, becauseit is universal and we all know
that it's like what do they say?
like taxes and death yeah, yeah,exactly, but but death is so,
you know, here, especially inthe west, like we don't accept
(08:27):
death in a positive way.
But I really feel and you know,listening to molly on your
podcast, now, now you candocument that for the rest of
your life, isn't she just?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
oh god, isn't she special very, I mean different,
very yeah and I think the cancergave her.
She says in her book, and I'mgoing to paraphrase but she
would never have lived the lifethat she was living if it
wouldn't have been for thecancer authentic and be really
(09:01):
rooted in her own body.
And I and I think that's thetakeaway from this Sometimes I'm
like I want people to feel thatbefore they get a diagnosis or
something that happens to themLike, but we don't know, and so
I'm going to ask you this and Ifeel bad even asking you this
like, well, do you feel like youhave you know?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
because I like I'm going to put you on the spot a
little bit because, yeah, no, Ilove this.
Okay, I think it takes, I thinkit's.
I love what you just said, andit does take that diagnosis
often.
And my goal is always how do weget there without the diagnosis
, right?
Because if we're truly livingmindfully, we would have these
sexcapades.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I think I think so too.
Okay, I would hope for all.
That's a you know, now that Ihave been through it with her.
Yeah, I don't think I couldever fully implement the place
that she was in into my life,right, because there's a
difference between thinkingabout dying and actually knowing
(09:56):
that you're dying it justresonates in your body
differently, but I often say,like what would Molly do?
Oh wait, let me check in, let medo a check, let me pull myself
down.
You know, I'm up here and I'mvibrating and I'm like anxious
and I'm watching myself and I'mtwo steps ahead and I'm all over
the place and often I thinkwhat I mean.
I do this with my husbandsometimes, where like we get
(10:17):
into a bicker, like we'rebickering and we fight, and then
I'm like what if somethinghappened to him?
on the way home from the grocerystore, and that's how I chose
to navigate this day with him.
So I have to say that it's alittle bit fear-based for me,
but it's also reality of like.
At any point one of us coulddie, and what do we want to do
(10:40):
with that time that we have withthose people?
Do we want to fight about thelaundry?
Do we want to bitch aboutwhatever?
Or do we want to be superpresent and super loving and
soak them up?
So, as much as I would love tosay that I'm always like that,
I'm not, but I often say, well,what would Molly do?
Or what has this experiencegiven me, so that I can now put
those goggles on and go.
Let's get real about what'shappening here.
(11:02):
I don't know, does that makeany sense?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
It does, and I think that's what I.
I was almost fear-based.
For me, listening was that likeshe was dying, you know, and I,
and when I tell people, whenI've described this podcast to
others, I'm like you hear thechange in her voice you know,
from, from episode one to six,and you know, you, you kind of
(11:24):
see death, death, you hear death, like you know what it's like.
and so you just said about likesort of hypothetical death
versus like, the intellectualversus emotional like, and
that's why I think molly was sodifferent, because for her, like
you, you recorded in thehospital we did.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Sorry, I just burped let it out really classy gal.
I was like whoa, we did, werecorded a lot of the sexcapades
and funny little kinks andfetishes that she did in a
little recording studio and Icould see even the decline of
her.
Now that I'm looking back Inthe moment, I wasn't super aware
(11:58):
of it when I look back at thoserecording sessions.
And then when she got into thehospital we thought, oh, it's
just a moment in time, she'sjust going to go in, she'll come
back out, because this is howit goes.
And then I think at the end ofDecember, very early January of
the year that she died, I waslike, oh, she's not.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Coming out, and so I said are you willing to to
record some more?
And she was like, yeah, yes,like, yeah, yes, but she was
very thoughtful about when werecorded what it is that she
wanted to say.
So she was a writer, so I thinkshe thought a lot about like
what, what those recordings weregoing to be like, and so we did
them very few, but they wereincredibly profound as you know
(12:36):
Incredibly Well, even like Ithink it was one of the last
episodes she talked about, umcharmed uh, you know, and she
was like the tv show.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, she was like this means nothing now and I you
know again.
I think that's why this helpspeople, because you know, they
always say that the last uhmoments in life are like the
best moments in life, you know,and that you don't have because
you don't fear about the future.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh, my god, I never thought of it that way.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's, oh my gosh that's the eastern sort of gift
to us.
It's like you're so present,and so that's what I so for me
like with the psychology and thezen stuff.
I'm like that's what I washearing in her voice and that's
beautiful yeah, the charm stuff.
I was like dope because that's,that's right.
You can't relate to it becauseyou're not future oriented right
, yes, you're taking away, likethe the.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, you can't.
You have to be present becausethere's no thinking ahead Like
yeah, oh, wow, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I love that.
So I mean, you know, I have alot of stuff to break down for
this.
I hope that's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Are you kidding?
These are my favorite kinds ofconversations and, by the way,
sometimes I'm really, reallyaware of what I'm saying and
other times I feel like I'mtalking out of my ass.
I'm like going to be honestwith you if I have a good answer
or a good thought, but if Idon't, I'm just going to be
honest and be like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I have no idea.
I love authenticity.
That's your value.
Well, the other piece of itthat I thought was really
helpful for others was, you know, the very powerful scenes and
her talking about her stepdad.
You know because there's youknow the stats around sexual
assault and.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Oh, her mom's boyfriend.
Yeah, he was um okay, yeah, hewas like a visitor, he was like,
yeah, she never had a stepdadwhat oh?
But, um, but the guy, the guythat was her mom's boyfriend
that was just, yeah, the sexualassault.
Talking to her mom about that,I mean that so brave for her to
come and talk to me.
She was just amazing, oh,thanks like I mean it's brave.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You have to realize that for you to make that call
is also brave thanks for sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
No, it is, and then for molly to talk about it, and
you know that the last scene ofthe series.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You know I don't want to give too much away but, like
I think, just some of the powerof like our younger selves and
what trauma does to us and howour brain is, and I think that
probably played a part into her,into living this way to 100%.
Yeah, okay, so you?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I do think what she says in.
So she wrote her memoir that Ipublished on Amazon is called
screw cancer becoming whole.
She wrote the memoir while shewas dying in the hospital those
last three months and the book,I think, is a little bit of a
darker look, kind of a sort of alove letter to herself, I think
.
And she says when that assaulthappened to her when she was
(15:10):
very young, like she split intotwo she acknowledged that a lot
of the sexual escapades were ahealing of her body, staying
rooted in her body and alsohaving a lot of fun and also
kind of reclaiming the thingsthat sexually got to happen to
(15:34):
her.
Like she got to decide, and Ifound that to be really powerful
.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Oh my, yeah, Very powerful, and, and, and you know
so, the mix of like depth withhumor, you know, I think that
was you guys.
I mean that was, and yourconnection was just like toyota
guy scott, I mean, I just wasdying don't we love him?
I was dying.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I'm still friends with him, like we communicate on
a regular basis, because she,she, um, that was he was one of
the first guys that she hookedup with.
So I had to go way back in therolodex and and dig and find him
.
Now this is is after Molly haddied.
So we had these recordings andthen we took the podcast to
Wondery and I said Molly is notwell and this is a cool Wondery
(16:15):
story.
You're going to die when youhear this.
Molly and I had recorded.
She got into the hospital, wecontinued to record.
I had all of these like 10episodes of her sexual escapades
and I thought I just want toget them out into the world
before she dies.
Like, should I just put them upon a YouTube channel?
Like, what do I do with this?
And I reached out to the CEO,hernan Lopez, of Wondery and I
(16:38):
said hey, I met you in passingyears ago.
I have this project.
I never heard back from him andso here I am, about to launch
this podcast on YouTube, which Iknew nothing about podcasts I
knew nothing really aboutYouTube either at the time and
I'm like I'm going to reach outone more time to him and I just
said hey, I didn't hear backfrom you.
I'm going to release thistomorrow because I want her to
(17:00):
know what's in the world beforeshe passes.
These are the episodes.
Let me know if you'reinterested.
And he responded very quicklyand said I never got your first
email.
So that's a good lesson alwayssend a follow-up, totally always
.
And then he said don't releasethis, I would love to take a
meeting with you.
So I went to the offices.
I met him now he's one of mybest friends.
It was at my wedding, like Ilove this man.
(17:21):
And he, um, he came to thehospital and he met Molly and he
sat with her on Valentine's day, about three weeks before she
died.
And he said I really want totell this story and I'm going to
help you and we're going tofigure it.
Nikki and I are going to figurethis out together, so just know
that I'm going to do everythingI can to get your story out
(17:41):
there.
And he I mean he pioneered thisand brought it into wondering
and paired me up with my amazingexecutive producer, stephanie
jens.
And so molly passed, knowingthat her story was going to be
in the hands of wondering andthat we were going to do
something really great together.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So how great is that?
Like, that's really.
You gave her lots of gifts, Imean.
I just want to say that too.
Obviously she gave a lot to you, but I think there's not a lot
of people that would put theirlife on hold.
That's my, that's my story.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Like I, that's the perception I have there's not a
lot of people that would sort ofput their life on hold or, you
know, even for family members,let alone best friends you know
it's interesting you say that Ilooking back, my husband really
gave me that permission and Iknow that sounds a little weird,
but like I just kept lookingfor, like, for, like, what
answers, like what do I do here?
And he was this is how it'sdifferent than the TV show
(18:31):
actually because we were aboutsix years into our relationship
and he just knew I think hecould see what I couldn't.
And he was like that's whereyou need to be, that's where you
need to be, go.
There's ever a choice of cominghome to hang out with me and
the kids, cause I have twostepdaughters that I helped
raise.
He's like, if you ever have achoice, the choice should always
be to go see Molly.
And there were times when itwas messy and then I couldn't.
(18:52):
I was frustrated and venting toother friends like it's never
enough.
I go all the time and like itjust never feels like it's
enough, I'm not doing a goodenough job and, um, if it were
up to her, I would have justbeen there for three months
straight Like she loved havingme around and I've never been
like she really loved me, pete,like deeply loved me, and like
she wanted me around all thetime.
(19:12):
So I I went through a lot oftimes of feeling very torn, but
I have to say I just it did feellike the right place to be with
her.
I just I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I don't know if I would have done it for anyone
else other than my husband, butyeah, she's, she's a pretty
special lesson for people tolive in the moment, Cause your
gut was telling you that or, youknow, in addition to his gut
telling him that this was theright place for my wife or
girlfriend to be like, you haveto listen to your gut and I
don't think a lot of us buildconnection with our gut enough
to know that it's there tellingus that.
So another thing that stood outto me as a as a healthcare
(19:48):
provider, uh, was the annoyanceof a physician telling her that
she's too young to have breastcancer when she felt the first
lump, and I felt ashamed to be apart of the healthcare system
you know, and well, well cause,you're such a like, a sweet soul
and such an empath You're, Ifelt, I felt ashamed, I'm like I
(20:09):
don't even know if I've everheard another doctor say that
that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That's so sweet.
It really is, though, but but I, we shared the same ob-gyn, and
so it was interesting.
We both went to the same doctorbecause we loved him, and
thought he was amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Better than that, yeah, exactly right, so she
actually got me in with him.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And then when?
Was amazing, no better thanthat.
Yeah, exactly Right.
So she actually got me in withhim.
And then when she you know I'mI continued to go to him.
After he had said to her it'snothing, you're fine, you're too
young for breast cancer.
We both continued to go see himbecause we were sort of had
this.
We didn't know.
And now looking back no, andnot looking back I'm like, oh my
(20:47):
god, always get a secondopinion.
If you feel something, go getyour mammogram, get your
ultrasound advocate, call yourinsurance company, do all of
that.
But yeah, molly didn't.
Really she had a lot of regretabout not not following up and
not trusting her own gut andlistening to.
Yeah, you know, but oh god,when you think about the
similarities about, like yourabuser, quote, unquote, right,
who?
I mean I love that you guys dothat connection.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I mean I hate to say love, but I thought that was a
beautiful way of connecting that.
Yeah, yeah, that was yeah.
Was the hospice nurse reallythat silly Amy the?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
hospice nurse hospice nurse Amy in the FX show is
Paula Pell, who is one of thebest humans ever.
Me in the FX show is Paula Pell, who is one of the best humans
ever, and she's kind of acombination of three or four
hospice nurses and also inspiredby someone named Hospice Nurse
Julie, who is really popular onTikTok and who normalizes
talking about death.
She's a hospice nurse, so itwas kind of this combination of
(21:43):
characters.
But it's one of my favoritespeeches in the history of
television because I feel likeit.
It talks about death in a wayand really educates people about
what death is, what your body'sdoing when it dies, and then it
knows how to die and thathere's what the breathing will
sound like, and here I've neverheard anybody really explain
(22:04):
that to me and just yeah, it wasreally cool a combination of
people.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I mean, the casting was amazing.
Michelle williams, jenny slatewhat was it like working with
them?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
oh my god it was like kind of mind-blowing and
amazing.
My showrunners, lizmerriweather and kim rosenstock,
first of all you don't get anybetter than that so they really
involved me in the writer's room.
I got to be a part of it.
We spent hours and hours andhours working together.
So when I showed up on set,that was my first time meeting
(22:36):
Jenny and Michelle right,because we trusted our casting
directors they knew exactly whatthey were doing.
Michelle was very passionateabout playing Molly, and so when
I met them, it just felt likePete, it just felt like me and
Molly.
It felt like we were there.
I was like watching them act,but I felt us there, and that's
due to the amazing writing andthe amazing acting and getting
(22:58):
the tone really really right,spot on.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And you made your cameo, I did, I was Cousin.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Sheila, I brought in a casserole to the chemo room,
which is what you should alwaysdo is bring food into a room
where people are nauseous andgetting chemo, and then the dog
comes in for the fetish.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, and that is a real, that was a real fetish.
Look nothing.
Nothing ever surprises me withmy line of work.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Oh, there's nothing I haven't heard is me with my
line of work.
Oh, there's nothing.
I haven't heard.
What, wait, I am kind of dyingto know.
Is there when you hear aboutother, because I was in this
position with molly.
Is there ever a time that youhear about someone's like sexual
interests or fetishes and youfeel your judgment coming
because you're like whoa, that'sso not in my realm.
(23:44):
But then you have the doctorbrain, right, but human brain at
the same time.
Have you ever had one that youwere like what do that's so?
Not in my realm.
But then you have the doctorbrain, right, but human brain at
the same time.
Have you ever had one that youwere like what do I do with that
?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I mean, thankfully I was trained for many years with
cameras on me to look at mynon-verbals and verbals.
And I mean, I've heard like ohreally.
Lamps used for masturbation andlatex stuff.
I mean, really you name it.
You know it's like thatnon-judgment as your doctor, you
(24:15):
just want to be safe.
You do like a risk assessment.
That's it right, like you dowhat you want to live your life,
but are you doing it safely?
That's all you know.
That's the non-judgmental brain.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I will never look at my lamps again.
You're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
But so I mean, but I really appreciate that fetishes,
you know.
I mean I think the world, andespecially today, like we're
just trying it's, it's sort oflike uh, like weeds or um
handsmaid tale.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
You know, like the world is just like everyone's
trying to fit into something orlike I think that's a really
good point.
About fetishes, I was a littlejudgy about some certain things
and molly just really, reallyschooled me.
It was like we, we are all inthis together, we are all
figuring out, as long as you'resafe and you're not harming
anyone, there should be.
I think our showrunners did agreat job in shedding some of
(25:06):
that shame for female sexualityand owning things in your body,
and oftentimes to find out whatyou like, you have to try 20
things that you don't like and Ijust think I hope people can
lean into a little bit of that.
Maybe, I don't know, explore alittle bit and take some risks
and try some new stuff.
It doesn't have to be sexually,it could be a new food,
anything you want it to, butjust like right exactly yes, try
(25:29):
shit, why not?
Speaker 1 (25:30):
so you know, we look at like rigidity and we try and
create flexibility.
You know, know, cognitive andpsychological, and I think
that's what your show did ithelps people you know different
perspectives like being able tosay why, because what I want
listeners to hear is like whywait until you're about you have
a death sentence to thenexplore how you want to live
fully?
You know, totally, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, I mean it's cheesy, but literally picture
yourself and say if a doctortold me tomorrow you have 24
months to live, what would youdo in those 24 months?
And why not have thatconversation with yourself and
do that now?
What are you waiting for?
Obviously, money is always.
(26:15):
There's things you can't dowithout, like the finances, but
why not go?
Okay, how do I make that apriority?
Because if that's somethingthat I want to do before I die,
why am I waiting until I'm like82?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
and too tired to do it.
Amen, you know.
I think that's what AlanisMorissette you know in the.
You know like you waited, andyou waited the whole life to
take that flight.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Wait, the old man turned 98.
He won the lottery and died thenext day.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Remember that line, that one stuck with me, so don't
wait for that.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Don't wait, yeah, don't wait.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I can't believe we're coming to the end, because I
could talk to you forever.
Yes we are.
It's so sad.
I want to keep going, but Iknow you've got things to do and
I want you to rest.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Can we do a part two we?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
can do a part, two, three, four, whatever you want
to do.
So Dying for Sex.
I know you could get that inWondery anywhere you listen to
your podcast.
You also have the FX series onHulu Dying for Sex.
I really, really encourageeveryone to listen to that.
We'll put links in the in thein the show notes also screw
(27:18):
cancer becoming whole.
That's the book.
I really I did not check thatout yet, but I'm going to
because I love.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Okay, you want to tell a little?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
bit about that, or what would it yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
well, she wrote it while she was, like, literally
in her deathbed and she wrote itas she was putting the pieces
together of what she wanted toleave behind.
So I think it's a really dark,beautiful look into the reality
of becoming whole and realizingwhat wounds you want to heal in
(27:44):
real time.
So she was writing from a veryraw place.
So I've gotten the feedbackthat it's a darker look at
things, but it's a very honestlook at things and she's just
such a good writer and I justlove knowing that her dream was
to be a published author and Ihelped her do that before she
passed away.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Isn't she the best.
She came.
She was here today.
So if you're watching onYouTube, that's why she's
messing with me, with my.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
That's why I changed the way that I look with me,
with my.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
That's why I changed the way that I look.
You still look great, though,so I'm glad that your equipment
works.
Yeah, she's like yeah, totally,whatever this guy is, I'm gonna
tell him oh my god, you are sogood at what you do and you're
such a good human and I just you, you know.
People have been telling me like, oh, look you, look, you're
making the world better andyou're giving people permission
to talk about uncomfortablethings, but so are you, and the
(28:40):
work you're doing is reallyimportant.
So, thank you, and that's whatyou started with today.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Like you like discomfort, and so I think,
leaning into that, you grow, andwhat we say is you know,
growing pains are part of growth, and so you have to have pain
to grow.
So thank you all for tuning in,nikki, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you makingthe time to come here.
I really really appreciate you.
So sadly, one in three womenare diagnosed with cancer in
their lifetime.
So, in honor of molly and thosewho may have lost to this
(29:05):
disease, I encourage you all tolisten to your body, advocate
for yourselves and push forearly screenings and, and like
you said, a second or thirdopinion it is so important we
navigate and take control of ourown health.
Please visit cancerorg to learnmore about early detection and
annual screening.
Thank you all for being here.
We'll see you back next week.
Until then, spread a littlekindness and stay well, thank
(29:46):
you.
Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and, oh my god, do I have a
show for you today.
Nikki boyer is here and we goback in like the early 2000s
when she was working with mybest friend and now the podcast
producer lee, and we were inphilly and, uh, I was just
(00:37):
telling her that I stumbled uponthis podcast dying for sex,
which was on wondery.
So let me just tell you alittle bit about nikki before we
get into that.
So she's a three-time EmmyAward winner, writer, actress,
producer and founder of Dyingfor Media.
She co-produced the smash hitpodcast Dying for Sex alongside
her beloved friend Molly, whowe're going to talk about, who
was diagnosed with terminalcancer at the age of 42.
(01:00):
And so she lived her own termsand this really was what spoke
to me, by exploring her sexcapades, if you will.
And she truly was life.
And Nikki and Molly documentedthat together, which then became
this FX series, dying for Sex.
So it's currently airing onHulu and I'm thrilled, nikki,
that you're here today.
Welcome, how can this be?
(01:21):
20 years ago that we first met.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
First of all, you look, look good.
You don't look like you've aged.
We haven't seen each othersince we were in our early 20s,
which is great.
I'm a little older than you but, um, I'm so happy to see you
and any chance that I get totalk about this experience and I
get to talk about molly, itmakes me so happy.
So what a bonus I get to talkabout an old friend and my best
(01:44):
friend.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Well, I'm not a great friend, though, because we
haven't talked in a while Well,like 20 years and I forgot what
show.
So we were just putting thistogether before we got on air,
about like the show.
So you were, this was like whenyou're you said it was one of
your first jobs that you wereworking on.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, when I moved to LA I auditioned for a show
called perfect proposal, um onTLC where at the time it was, um
, mainly men that were proposingto their girlfriends.
I would love to do it modernday and do it now.
It'd be so, so fun.
But they were these crazy,wonderful surprise proposals and
we would create a ruse aroundit and I would be involved.
(02:21):
So I got to be a part of like Idon't even know like a hundred
marriage proposals it was.
I think we did like I mean, Idid so many episodes for for a
few years it was.
I was running around this wholecountry.
Um but that was the show, wasperfect proposal.
So I think that's how we met.
You weren't proposing to me,but you know you were.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You were, I think, auditioning for something, right
, that's what, lee said so I'mgoing to, let's go with that,
because you know, my memorydoesn't always serve me.
But so so 20 years and thenthis podcast has happened, so
right.
Right.
But so I was telling you beforewe got on that the podcast
really just fell in my lapbecause Wondery, I think, does a
(03:02):
wonderful job.
I know Right, I really does awonderful job, I know right, I
really really loved it.
So for me, I'm just so happy tohave you here because, as a
psychologist.
You have helped so many people.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Do you know that that's so nice?
No, I mean, I guess kind ofFrom the DMs I'm getting on
Instagram, I can feel the rippleeffect is pretty profound.
So I think I have an idea, buttell me more.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
So for me, you know the messages that I heard, and
before I even watched the series, the messages were about, you
know, living in the presentmoment.
It was about letting go ofsocial anxiety.
It was letting go of stigma.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It was letting go of perception.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You know these roles, that we gender roles, you know
this.
You talk about modern dayproposals, modern day like
modern day woman.
You know, like that you, youempower people to be who they
were in that story and molly,you know, and I think a lot of
people are afraid of death oh mygosh.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, it's the one thing that for sure is going to
happen to all of us.
Yet we just don't talk about it.
Culturally, spiritually, wedon't even really talk about it
in terms of like religion.
We talk about it, but it's veryfactual and it's very like
detached, and I just I foundthat so interesting, that one
thing that connects us all, thatwe can for sure say that we're
all going to have an experiencesimilar, is that it's death, but
(04:22):
we don't ever talk about it.
So with Molly, she really didteach me that you could lean
into that and have really funconversations, and I don't know
if I would have been where I amnow in that journey if I
wouldn't have had her in my lifeto show me that when were you
in your life in that regard,spiritually, around death, you
know, before Molly was diagnosed?
(04:42):
Um, my dad had passed away in2005.
Oh my god, yes, it was while itwas, while I was doing.
Perfect proposal I had to leavethe show for like a good three
weeks to be there with my dadwhen he died, so I lost my dad.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
My dad was only 50, which is weird I'm about and I
was 30.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I love uncomfortable things.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
What Says nobody ever Right.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I loved to be around when things are messy.
I don't know why, maybe it'sbecause I just enjoyed chaos as
a kid, but I can.
Often I like to navigate peopleand say, okay, this is really
uncomfortable, this is weird, Iget it.
Let's kind of reset and can wemindfully do this together.
That always doesn't work superwell with my family, but I have
(05:33):
to say I just really craveddoing that, which is I mean I
have to tell you, pete, like Ireally thought for a minute that
I would be a psychologist or gointo mental health, and I was a
life coach for two or threeyears and I did answer the
phones at the suicide preventioncenter when people were
suicidal.
I would answer.
That was over COVID.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I learned, I went through the training and I did
that and the one response that Igot from my, my mentors they
were amazing, by the way amazinghumans that work at the suicide
prevention center.
They're like you stay on thecalls for way too long If
they're not high risk.
Nikki, you have to get off thephone and I would be like, but
Gary and I are best friends nowI don't want to get off the
(06:16):
phone.
So then I went into lifecoaching because I thought, oh,
then I can have more time withmy clients and then, and then
the show kind of kicked off.
But I have to say, doing thiswith Molly felt like an
extension of that work that Iwas doing.
So, yeah, I love to, I love totalk about uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I guess that makes sense.
Then to how I felt, Like Ithink the education that you
gave people thank you.
I don't.
Maybe I should have known thatabout you, but that I mean, how
would you yeah Well, but thathelps to know, because I
actually in class last night.
We were talking about sometimesthey have to keep people on
hold in the suicide hotline.
Yes, right, yeah, that's reallynot great.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Well, there's a hotline.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And that's if you are really feeling like you are
going to kill yourself.
And then there is the warm line, which is where you can call
when you're having ideation,when you're feeling like you're
considering it, but you want tojust really check in and talk
with somebody, and so I wouldhave been great on the warm
lines, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well now I mean, thankfully people had you there,
but so so when Molly wasdiagnosed, you know, so you had
gone through a little bit ofyour own journey around your
dad's death.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
You had been a life coach, you had done the suicide
hotline right.
You'd already done that.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
You know what sorry timeline I know no, it's
actually really valuable for meto go back.
My dad had passed.
I was with him when he died.
It was a three-day process itwas very.
I was very present during thatyeah and so I think my dad
always I'm like thank you forgiving me like the roadmap to
how to be with molly.
I think my dad for that.
All the time I, yeah, I think Ithink I had gone through, yes,
(07:44):
yes, because Molly would be likewhat are you doing today, can
you come to the hospital?
And I'd be like I have to goanswer the phones at the suicide
prevention center.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
And she'd be like she'd be like what's?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
more important Strangers that might die, or
your best friend and I'd be likewe would laugh and have such a
morbid conversation, but then Iwould go to the hospital right
after.
So it was during the same time,pete.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Thank you, because I don't think I remembered that
yeah, yeah, well, and maybe thatset you up a little bit, like
to kind of understand thatthere's endings.
And you know, to say it'suniversal is like really, um,
intellectual, you know, becauseit is universal and we all know
that it's like what do they say?
like taxes and death yeah, yeah,exactly, but but death is so,
you know, here, especially inthe west, like we don't accept
(08:27):
death in a positive way.
But I really feel and you know,listening to molly on your
podcast, now, now you candocument that for the rest of
your life, isn't she just?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
oh god, isn't she special very, I mean different,
very yeah and I think the cancergave her.
She says in her book, and I'mgoing to paraphrase but she
would never have lived the lifethat she was living if it
wouldn't have been for thecancer authentic and be really
(09:01):
rooted in her own body.
And I and I think that's thetakeaway from this Sometimes I'm
like I want people to feel thatbefore they get a diagnosis or
something that happens to themLike, but we don't know, and so
I'm going to ask you this and Ifeel bad even asking you this
like, well, do you feel like youhave you know?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
because I like I'm going to put you on the spot a
little bit because, yeah, no, Ilove this.
Okay, I think it takes, I thinkit's.
I love what you just said, andit does take that diagnosis
often.
And my goal is always how do weget there without the diagnosis
, right?
Because if we're truly livingmindfully, we would have these
sexcapades.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I think I think so too.
Okay, I would hope for all.
That's a you know, now that Ihave been through it with her.
Yeah, I don't think I couldever fully implement the place
that she was in into my life,right, because there's a
difference between thinkingabout dying and actually knowing
(09:56):
that you're dying it justresonates in your body
differently, but I often say,like what would Molly do?
Oh wait, let me check in, let medo a check, let me pull myself
down.
You know, I'm up here and I'mvibrating and I'm like anxious
and I'm watching myself and I'mtwo steps ahead and I'm all over
the place and often I thinkwhat I mean.
I do this with my husbandsometimes, where like we get
(10:17):
into a bicker, like we'rebickering and we fight, and then
I'm like what if somethinghappened to him?
on the way home from the grocerystore, and that's how I chose
to navigate this day with him.
So I have to say that it's alittle bit fear-based for me,
but it's also reality of like.
At any point one of us coulddie, and what do we want to do
(10:40):
with that time that we have withthose people?
Do we want to fight about thelaundry?
Do we want to bitch aboutwhatever?
Or do we want to be superpresent and super loving and
soak them up?
So, as much as I would love tosay that I'm always like that,
I'm not, but I often say, well,what would Molly do?
Or what has this experiencegiven me, so that I can now put
those goggles on and go.
Let's get real about what'shappening here.
(11:02):
I don't know, does that makeany sense?
Speaker 1 (11:03):
It does, and I think that's what I.
I was almost fear-based.
For me, listening was that likeshe was dying, you know, and I,
and when I tell people, whenI've described this podcast to
others, I'm like you hear thechange in her voice you know,
from, from episode one to six,and you know, you, you kind of
(11:24):
see death, death, you hear death, like you know what it's like.
and so you just said about likesort of hypothetical death
versus like, the intellectualversus emotional like, and
that's why I think molly was sodifferent, because for her, like
you, you recorded in thehospital we did.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Sorry, I just burped let it out really classy gal.
I was like whoa, we did, werecorded a lot of the sexcapades
and funny little kinks andfetishes that she did in a
little recording studio and Icould see even the decline of
her.
Now that I'm looking back Inthe moment, I wasn't super aware
(11:58):
of it when I look back at thoserecording sessions.
And then when she got into thehospital we thought, oh, it's
just a moment in time, she'sjust going to go in, she'll come
back out, because this is howit goes.
And then I think at the end ofDecember, very early January of
the year that she died, I waslike, oh, she's not.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Coming out, and so I said are you willing to to
record some more?
And she was like, yeah, yes,like, yeah, yes, but she was
very thoughtful about when werecorded what it is that she
wanted to say.
So she was a writer, so I thinkshe thought a lot about like
what, what those recordings weregoing to be like, and so we did
them very few, but they wereincredibly profound as you know
(12:36):
Incredibly Well, even like Ithink it was one of the last
episodes she talked about, umcharmed uh, you know, and she
was like the tv show.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, she was like this means nothing now and I you
know again.
I think that's why this helpspeople, because you know, they
always say that the last uhmoments in life are like the
best moments in life, you know,and that you don't have because
you don't fear about the future.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh, my god, I never thought of it that way.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
That's, oh my gosh that's the eastern sort of gift
to us.
It's like you're so present,and so that's what I so for me
like with the psychology and thezen stuff.
I'm like that's what I washearing in her voice and that's
beautiful yeah, the charm stuff.
I was like dope because that's,that's right.
You can't relate to it becauseyou're not future oriented right
, yes, you're taking away, likethe the.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah, you can't.
You have to be present becausethere's no thinking ahead Like
yeah, oh, wow, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I love that.
So I mean, you know, I have alot of stuff to break down for
this.
I hope that's okay.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Are you kidding?
These are my favorite kinds ofconversations and, by the way,
sometimes I'm really, reallyaware of what I'm saying and
other times I feel like I'mtalking out of my ass.
I'm like going to be honestwith you if I have a good answer
or a good thought, but if Idon't, I'm just going to be
honest and be like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I have no idea.
I love authenticity.
That's your value.
Well, the other piece of itthat I thought was really
helpful for others was, you know, the very powerful scenes and
her talking about her stepdad.
You know because there's youknow the stats around sexual
assault and.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Oh, her mom's boyfriend.
Yeah, he was um okay, yeah, hewas like a visitor, he was like,
yeah, she never had a stepdadwhat oh?
But, um, but the guy, the guythat was her mom's boyfriend
that was just, yeah, the sexualassault.
Talking to her mom about that,I mean that so brave for her to
come and talk to me.
She was just amazing, oh,thanks like I mean it's brave.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You have to realize that for you to make that call
is also brave thanks for sayingthat.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
No, it is, and then for molly to talk about it, and
you know that the last scene ofthe series.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You know I don't want to give too much away but, like
I think, just some of the powerof like our younger selves and
what trauma does to us and howour brain is, and I think that
probably played a part into her,into living this way to 100%.
Yeah, okay, so you?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I do think what she says in.
So she wrote her memoir that Ipublished on Amazon is called
screw cancer becoming whole.
She wrote the memoir while shewas dying in the hospital those
last three months and the book,I think, is a little bit of a
darker look, kind of a sort of alove letter to herself, I think
.
And she says when that assaulthappened to her when she was
(15:10):
very young, like she split intotwo she acknowledged that a lot
of the sexual escapades were ahealing of her body, staying
rooted in her body and alsohaving a lot of fun and also
kind of reclaiming the thingsthat sexually got to happen to
(15:34):
her.
Like she got to decide, and Ifound that to be really powerful
.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Oh my, yeah, Very powerful, and, and, and you know
so, the mix of like depth withhumor, you know, I think that
was you guys.
I mean that was, and yourconnection was just like toyota
guy scott, I mean, I just wasdying don't we love him?
I was dying.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I'm still friends with him, like we communicate on
a regular basis, because she,she, um, that was he was one of
the first guys that she hookedup with.
So I had to go way back in therolodex and and dig and find him
.
Now this is is after Molly haddied.
So we had these recordings andthen we took the podcast to
Wondery and I said Molly is notwell and this is a cool Wondery
(16:15):
story.
You're going to die when youhear this.
Molly and I had recorded.
She got into the hospital, wecontinued to record.
I had all of these like 10episodes of her sexual escapades
and I thought I just want toget them out into the world
before she dies.
Like, should I just put them upon a YouTube channel?
Like, what do I do with this?
And I reached out to the CEO,hernan Lopez, of Wondery and I
(16:38):
said hey, I met you in passingyears ago.
I have this project.
I never heard back from him andso here I am, about to launch
this podcast on YouTube, which Iknew nothing about podcasts I
knew nothing really aboutYouTube either at the time and
I'm like I'm going to reach outone more time to him and I just
said hey, I didn't hear backfrom you.
I'm going to release thistomorrow because I want her to
(17:00):
know what's in the world beforeshe passes.
These are the episodes.
Let me know if you'reinterested.
And he responded very quicklyand said I never got your first
email.
So that's a good lesson alwayssend a follow-up, totally always
.
And then he said don't releasethis, I would love to take a
meeting with you.
So I went to the offices.
I met him now he's one of mybest friends.
It was at my wedding, like Ilove this man.
(17:21):
And he, um, he came to thehospital and he met Molly and he
sat with her on Valentine's day, about three weeks before she
died.
And he said I really want totell this story and I'm going to
help you and we're going tofigure it.
Nikki and I are going to figurethis out together, so just know
that I'm going to do everythingI can to get your story out
(17:41):
there.
And he I mean he pioneered thisand brought it into wondering
and paired me up with my amazingexecutive producer, stephanie
jens.
And so molly passed, knowingthat her story was going to be
in the hands of wondering andthat we were going to do
something really great together.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So how great is that?
Like, that's really.
You gave her lots of gifts, Imean.
I just want to say that too.
Obviously she gave a lot to you, but I think there's not a lot
of people that would put theirlife on hold.
That's my, that's my story.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Like I, that's the perception I have there's not a
lot of people that would sort ofput their life on hold or, you
know, even for family members,let alone best friends you know
it's interesting you say that Ilooking back, my husband really
gave me that permission and Iknow that sounds a little weird,
but like I just kept lookingfor, like, for, like, what
answers, like what do I do here?
And he was this is how it'sdifferent than the TV show
(18:31):
actually because we were aboutsix years into our relationship
and he just knew I think hecould see what I couldn't.
And he was like that's whereyou need to be, that's where you
need to be, go.
There's ever a choice of cominghome to hang out with me and
the kids, cause I have twostepdaughters that I helped
raise.
He's like, if you ever have achoice, the choice should always
be to go see Molly.
And there were times when itwas messy and then I couldn't.
(18:52):
I was frustrated and venting toother friends like it's never
enough.
I go all the time and like itjust never feels like it's
enough, I'm not doing a goodenough job and, um, if it were
up to her, I would have justbeen there for three months
straight Like she loved havingme around and I've never been
like she really loved me, pete,like deeply loved me, and like
she wanted me around all thetime.
(19:12):
So I I went through a lot oftimes of feeling very torn, but
I have to say I just it did feellike the right place to be with
her.
I just I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I don't know if I would have done it for anyone
else other than my husband, butyeah, she's, she's a pretty
special lesson for people tolive in the moment, Cause your
gut was telling you that or, youknow, in addition to his gut
telling him that this was theright place for my wife or
girlfriend to be like, you haveto listen to your gut and I
don't think a lot of us buildconnection with our gut enough
to know that it's there tellingus that.
So another thing that stood outto me as a as a healthcare
(19:48):
provider, uh, was the annoyanceof a physician telling her that
she's too young to have breastcancer when she felt the first
lump, and I felt ashamed to be apart of the healthcare system
you know, and well, well cause,you're such a like, a sweet soul
and such an empath You're, Ifelt, I felt ashamed, I'm like I
(20:09):
don't even know if I've everheard another doctor say that
that's so sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
That's so sweet.
It really is, though, but but I, we shared the same ob-gyn, and
so it was interesting.
We both went to the same doctorbecause we loved him, and
thought he was amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Better than that, yeah, exactly right, so she
actually got me in with him.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
And then when?
Was amazing, no better thanthat.
Yeah, exactly Right.
So she actually got me in withhim.
And then when she you know I'mI continued to go to him.
After he had said to her it'snothing, you're fine, you're too
young for breast cancer.
We both continued to go see himbecause we were sort of had
this.
We didn't know.
And now looking back no, andnot looking back I'm like, oh my
(20:47):
god, always get a secondopinion.
If you feel something, go getyour mammogram, get your
ultrasound advocate, call yourinsurance company, do all of
that.
But yeah, molly didn't.
Really she had a lot of regretabout not not following up and
not trusting her own gut andlistening to.
Yeah, you know, but oh god,when you think about the
similarities about, like yourabuser, quote, unquote, right,
who?
I mean I love that you guys dothat connection.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
I mean I hate to say love, but I thought that was a
beautiful way of connecting that.
Yeah, yeah, that was yeah.
Was the hospice nurse reallythat silly Amy the?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
hospice nurse hospice nurse Amy in the FX show is
Paula Pell, who is one of thebest humans ever.
Me in the FX show is Paula Pell, who is one of the best humans
ever, and she's kind of acombination of three or four
hospice nurses and also inspiredby someone named Hospice Nurse
Julie, who is really popular onTikTok and who normalizes
talking about death.
She's a hospice nurse, so itwas kind of this combination of
(21:43):
characters.
But it's one of my favoritespeeches in the history of
television because I feel likeit.
It talks about death in a wayand really educates people about
what death is, what your body'sdoing when it dies, and then it
knows how to die and thathere's what the breathing will
sound like, and here I've neverheard anybody really explain
(22:04):
that to me and just yeah, it wasreally cool a combination of
people.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
I mean, the casting was amazing.
Michelle williams, jenny slatewhat was it like working with
them?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
oh my god it was like kind of mind-blowing and
amazing.
My showrunners, lizmerriweather and kim rosenstock,
first of all you don't get anybetter than that so they really
involved me in the writer's room.
I got to be a part of it.
We spent hours and hours andhours working together.
So when I showed up on set,that was my first time meeting
(22:36):
Jenny and Michelle right,because we trusted our casting
directors they knew exactly whatthey were doing.
Michelle was very passionateabout playing Molly, and so when
I met them, it just felt likePete, it just felt like me and
Molly.
It felt like we were there.
I was like watching them act,but I felt us there, and that's
due to the amazing writing andthe amazing acting and getting
(22:58):
the tone really really right,spot on.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And you made your cameo, I did, I was Cousin.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Sheila, I brought in a casserole to the chemo room,
which is what you should alwaysdo is bring food into a room
where people are nauseous andgetting chemo, and then the dog
comes in for the fetish.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Yes, and that is a real, that was a real fetish.
Look nothing.
Nothing ever surprises me withmy line of work.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Oh, there's nothing I haven't heard is me with my
line of work.
Oh, there's nothing.
I haven't heard.
What, wait, I am kind of dyingto know.
Is there when you hear aboutother, because I was in this
position with molly.
Is there ever a time that youhear about someone's like sexual
interests or fetishes and youfeel your judgment coming
because you're like whoa, that'sso not in my realm.
(23:44):
But then you have the doctorbrain, right, but human brain at
the same time.
Have you ever had one that youwere like what do that's so?
Not in my realm.
But then you have the doctorbrain, right, but human brain at
the same time.
Have you ever had one that youwere like what do I do with that
?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
I mean, thankfully I was trained for many years with
cameras on me to look at mynon-verbals and verbals.
And I mean, I've heard like ohreally.
Lamps used for masturbation andlatex stuff.
I mean, really you name it.
You know it's like thatnon-judgment as your doctor, you
(24:15):
just want to be safe.
You do like a risk assessment.
That's it right, like you dowhat you want to live your life,
but are you doing it safely?
That's all you know.
That's the non-judgmental brain.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
I will never look at my lamps again.
You're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
But so I mean, but I really appreciate that fetishes,
you know.
I mean I think the world, andespecially today, like we're
just trying it's, it's sort oflike uh, like weeds or um
handsmaid tale.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
You know, like the world is just like everyone's
trying to fit into something orlike I think that's a really
good point.
About fetishes, I was a littlejudgy about some certain things
and molly just really, reallyschooled me.
It was like we, we are all inthis together, we are all
figuring out, as long as you'resafe and you're not harming
anyone, there should be.
I think our showrunners did agreat job in shedding some of
(25:06):
that shame for female sexualityand owning things in your body,
and oftentimes to find out whatyou like, you have to try 20
things that you don't like and Ijust think I hope people can
lean into a little bit of that.
Maybe, I don't know, explore alittle bit and take some risks
and try some new stuff.
It doesn't have to be sexually,it could be a new food,
anything you want it to, butjust like right exactly yes, try
(25:29):
shit, why not?
Speaker 1 (25:30):
so you know, we look at like rigidity and we try and
create flexibility.
You know, know, cognitive andpsychological, and I think
that's what your show did ithelps people you know different
perspectives like being able tosay why, because what I want
listeners to hear is like whywait until you're about you have
a death sentence to thenexplore how you want to live
fully?
You know, totally, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, I mean it's cheesy, but literally picture
yourself and say if a doctortold me tomorrow you have 24
months to live, what would youdo in those 24 months?
And why not have thatconversation with yourself and
do that now?
What are you waiting for?
Obviously, money is always.
(26:15):
There's things you can't dowithout, like the finances, but
why not go?
Okay, how do I make that apriority?
Because if that's somethingthat I want to do before I die,
why am I waiting until I'm like82?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
and too tired to do it.
Amen, you know.
I think that's what AlanisMorissette you know in the.
You know like you waited, andyou waited the whole life to
take that flight.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Wait, the old man turned 98.
He won the lottery and died thenext day.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Remember that line, that one stuck with me, so don't
wait for that.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Don't wait, yeah, don't wait.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I can't believe we're coming to the end, because I
could talk to you forever.
Yes we are.
It's so sad.
I want to keep going, but Iknow you've got things to do and
I want you to rest.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Can we do a part two we?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
can do a part, two, three, four, whatever you want
to do.
So Dying for Sex.
I know you could get that inWondery anywhere you listen to
your podcast.
You also have the FX series onHulu Dying for Sex.
I really, really encourageeveryone to listen to that.
We'll put links in the in thein the show notes also screw
(27:18):
cancer becoming whole.
That's the book.
I really I did not check thatout yet, but I'm going to
because I love.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Okay, you want to tell a little?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
bit about that, or what would it yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
well, she wrote it while she was, like, literally
in her deathbed and she wrote itas she was putting the pieces
together of what she wanted toleave behind.
So I think it's a really dark,beautiful look into the reality
of becoming whole and realizingwhat wounds you want to heal in
(27:44):
real time.
So she was writing from a veryraw place.
So I've gotten the feedbackthat it's a darker look at
things, but it's a very honestlook at things and she's just
such a good writer and I justlove knowing that her dream was
to be a published author and Ihelped her do that before she
passed away.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Isn't she the best.
She came.
She was here today.
So if you're watching onYouTube, that's why she's
messing with me, with my.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
That's why I changed the way that I look with me,
with my.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
That's why I changed the way that I look.
You still look great, though,so I'm glad that your equipment
works.
Yeah, she's like yeah, totally,whatever this guy is, I'm gonna
tell him oh my god, you are sogood at what you do and you're
such a good human and I just you, you know.
People have been telling me like, oh, look you, look, you're
making the world better andyou're giving people permission
to talk about uncomfortablethings, but so are you, and the
(28:40):
work you're doing is reallyimportant.
So, thank you, and that's whatyou started with today.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Like you like discomfort, and so I think,
leaning into that, you grow, andwhat we say is you know,
growing pains are part of growth, and so you have to have pain
to grow.
So thank you all for tuning in,nikki, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you makingthe time to come here.
I really really appreciate you.
So sadly, one in three womenare diagnosed with cancer in
their lifetime.
So, in honor of molly and thosewho may have lost to this
(29:05):
disease, I encourage you all tolisten to your body, advocate
for yourselves and push forearly screenings and, and like
you said, a second or thirdopinion it is so important we
navigate and take control of ourown health.
Please visit cancerorg to learnmore about early detection and
annual screening.
Thank you all for being here.
We'll see you back next week.
Until then, spread a littlekindness and stay well, thank
(29:46):
you.
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