July 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Join Dr. Pete & Eric Gee to learn more about your personality type with animals! Eric Gee is an accomplished Author and Creator of The Youtopia Project, a personality- based life coaching business. Eric is a UCLA Graduate and has used his personality typing method to better the lives of thousands of people around the world. His website, The Youtopia Project has over a half million users and his impactful coaching program has been used by Hulu, Disney, Private Universities and more than 40 school districts throughout the US.
To learn more about Eric and The Power Of Personality - click on the link below
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and I hope you're still
enjoying summer and resting andrecharging.
I know I'm doing the best I canto stay outside because here on
the East Coast we have to enjoythis because we don't get this
all year round, unlike my guesttoday who in LA can enjoy this,
and so a little slower summerpace for us here on the East
(00:37):
Coast.
But I'm excited to introduceyou this guest.
This is Eric G, an accomplishedauthor and creator of Utopia
Project, a personality-basedlife coaching business.
He's a UCLA graduate.
We're going to talk about theBig Ten, how they joined the Big
Ten this year and use hispersonality typing method to
better the lives of thousands ofpeople around the world.
His website, the Utopia Project, has over a half a million
(01:00):
users and his impactful coachinghas been used by Hulu, disney,
private universities and morethan 40 districts throughout the
US.
So, eric, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you so much for having me and you know I love
the reference to the Big Ten.
That made me cringe a littlebit, but you know well, why
would you?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Why?
What about the UCLA and theBruins?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
We got knocked around a bit this year.
We got knocked around a bit,but you know next year will be
great.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
you know I complained about the nil but we got a
great quarterback, uh, throughthe nil.
So you know that's how thatgoes.
Nil is hurting us here on theeast coast.
You know well, I guess it'ssimilar to you, to la, but not
as much.
East coast is so dense in likeschools and just stuff that like
in a 20, 30 mile radius youcould have like two huge
universities, which I guess youguys have right, because you
have like Stanford, ucla.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, there is another school in Los Angeles,
but I don't really mention themtoo much, but yeah, there's that
USC that other crap school.
No, just kidding that other BigTen school yes, that other Big
Ten school.
Now they got knocked around abit too.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So you know, I'm happy to see that all the time.
So, look, I am a professor anddo this at ruckers and so I know
knocking around I mean it is apart of uh, growth and if you,
if you know, you mentioned yourbrother earlier and um, as uh,
uh, I'm one of three boys andyou get knocked around a little
bit and helps grow uh, are youthe youngest, middle or oldest?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm the?
Oh, I'm the youngest, oh, oh,oh, that's painful.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So definitely knocked around.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, definitely knocked around, which makes you
stronger.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It makes us stronger.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
That's what I told myself when I would beat my
brother up it makes you stronger, trust me.
You're crying now, but you know, in a few years, maybe 30 years
you're going to appreciate this.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So tell us a bit about yourself.
So I know you graduated fromUCLA we've already got into that
and you studied Englishliterature and screenwriting,
and so what did you do when youwere first out of college?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know, first out of college I was a starter at a
golf course, you know, andpeople are like what?
Like making minimum wage islike.
You know, it was like the oneof the best jobs I've ever had
because you get to meet so manypeople.
Yeah, and you know, obviously Iwrote a book on personality
typing and I don't think I wouldhave been able to do that if
not for that job or other jobswhere I'm interacting with
people constantly and trying toengage with them and, you know,
(03:07):
trying to like figure out whothey are, because I want to make
that the best experience forthem so what?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
what is so?
A starter, for those that don'tknow, at a golf course they're
like a host or hostess at arestaurant.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So they are important in that they're the people who
people try to bribe so they canget on the tea.
I was a bartender oh, oh,that's, that's that's.
You see a lot of people thentalk about personality typing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So that's why we always joke and say that's what
led me into becoming apsychologist.
Oh, you heard a lot of people'sproblems.
You hear a lot of people'sproblems.
Do starters hear a lot ofpeople problems like if they're
having a good day or a bad day,or a good, it's always.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's always happy, they're always happy.
But then they're always upsetabout their game, like, oh, it
sucked today, but you know I hadfun.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
But I sucked, you know, yeah, yeah, so, um, all
right.
So your, your career hasobviously since evolved, so tell
us about that yeah, you know itwas funny.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So then I worked at the golf course and or the golf
course, yeah, the golf courseand I was on the mic and I would
say, like you know, next up onthe t-box, the john threesome
and someone said that I had agreat voice for radio and they
said also that I had a greatface for radio.
I think that was an insult, butum, so then I started doing a
radio show, um, you know, like alittle internet radio show,
(04:17):
before podcasts and themid-aughts, and um, I started
also at the same time, becausethat didn't really pay the bills
, I also started teaching ortutoring.
Okay, and you know, throughthat I started learning about
the education process and thenthrough that, I started my own
education company.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What were you?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
tutoring.
We were doing math and English,so it was for the no child left
behind.
But really I was kind of makingit my own right, Like they
didn't have us on a tight leashso I could kind of do what I
wanted.
Who's the they in that thatthey would be?
Uh, what was the name of thatcompany?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
oh, you don't have to say oh, it was your company, so
you could say the name of it.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
But oh sorry, it was a pre.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So there's a previous company that I worked for and
then I branched off of that andstarted my own yeah, so because
I've had a lot of conversationsabout no child left behind, and
so someone listening might notknow what that is, and so I
think it's one of those thingsin life that it's like it's good
in theory but not in practice Idon't know if you agree with me
okay yeah, oh, no, 100.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I'll be honest, like we had like so many companies
that were competing with us whenI started my own company.
Yeah, and people are competingbecause the students get the
tutoring for free, through, nochild left Behind.
And you know, a lot of peopleare trying to take advantage of
the parents because, let's faceit, some of the parents are not
the most sophisticated and sothey just try to give them free
stuff, with the parents notknowing how valuable that free
stuff is versus the tutoring,which was way more valuable and
(05:35):
expensive.
Nice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So so this starter at the golf course kind of
contributed to becoming apersonality tester, but so you
got into personality trainingyeah, you know like so that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So the interest started when I was in high
school and I felt like I was abig weirdo even though I guess I
wasn't treated like a weirdobecause I could, I could, I
could pass yeah, but I think ingeneral, like I was like wow, so
pass as a non-weirdo yeah, Iwas like what, how is it a
non-weirdo?
Yeah, passer or passing and anduh, yeah.
So I just uh got into thatbecause I was like, well, you
(06:08):
know, I feel really differentthan people, so let me figure
out this stuff.
And I started reading up on thedifferent personality typing
methodologies and yeah.
So then I brought it back towhen I started owning the or I
own the tutoring company andstarted working with a bunch of
kids, and that's when we starteddeveloping my own methodology
and so how did you, you developthat?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I mean, can you give us a little bit of break that
down for us simple people?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Oh well, I'm much simpler than that, so I'll break
it down even simpler.
Yeah, you know, I was reallyfamiliar with MBTI, which I
think a lot of people like 16personality types, so I really
evolved from that.
So my personality typingmethodology does have 16 types
as well, but does have 16 typesas well, but how you diagnose
and get to those types is veryvery different.
What's the biggest difference?
I would say I focus strongly onvalues and from those values,
(06:50):
core values, I split people tothe four different.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I call them packs yeah, because I use animal types
for my personalities, I sawthat yeah, it's an oh, don't
tell me oh, I was gonna guessthat I was.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I swear to god, I was gonna guess.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, we'll never know now, Ah gosh.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You know, like I love guessing and you definitely
have that dolphin energy.
You're coming off like verywelcoming, open, but also like
that's an interest of yours,right?
It's psychology andunderstanding people, yeah,
where other types that are moreopen and friendly are more like
oh, let me help you get married,are more like oh, let me help
you get married.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
You know, or like let me hook you up with people.
So how did you come to theanimal test then, like, what was
that about?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, you know, like I think animals are just easy to
remember for people and I meanit was tough to find like
archetypal animals, like forsome of the personality types,
like a shark.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You say shark, a fox, people are like, okay, I get
that Narrow, uh, fox, sharp,clever james bond suave um
others were a little bit harder,like I'm like um a humpback
whale right, but it doesn't havea reason.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You call me fat.
Yeah, oh gosh, the elephant.
I'll be like they're like.
What's my personality?
I'm an elephant.
Wait, you're saying I'm fatyeah, like no, I'm just saying
you heard, you know you bringpeople together, you know yeah,
but yeah, that's where I almostcame from.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Elephants are beautiful like just from like a
a family systems perspective andjust, uh, you know, really
energetically and um, oh yeah,so if before now again, we'll
never know the real truth tothis, but like if you were in
your head trying to figure myanimal out, what was like a
second or third one that youwere maybe thinking um, a baboon
(08:23):
.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So they?
Because that obviously I'd pickanimals that all fall under the
same pack, right, becausealthough if you fall in the same
pack then you're going to havesimilarities, but then they'll
manifest maybe differently.
Um, I would have probably saida baboon.
Yeah, because baboons anddolphins within that, I call
them the shaman pack.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
They're a lot more outward with their energy,
they're a lot more, I hate tosay, extroverted, because I
don't totally know inextroversion, but like they're a
lot more warm, they're warmerand more uh vocal versus the
other types it's funny you saythat because I mean most when I
teach this stuff, like withmyers-briggs type indicator mbti
, like we said earlier, likeit's no one's just, it's not
absolute, and so in grad schoolI was definitely a stronger e
(09:01):
than I am today.
You, you know, and so and oneof my and I one of my professors
always loved, and she crackedherself up about the percept,
the P or perspective perceptivebecause she would say, when she
would refer to it she would saymy P-ness.
She thought that was hystericalbut I guess that's just
psychologists.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
but yeah, that's a psychology joke.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But you got it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, no, I got it.
That, that's.
That's how nerdy I am.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
No, I love that can you tell pretty quickly about
like what animal somebody is?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know it depends on the person.
I always say to like, thequicker I can tell.
Then actually they're probablymore emotionally healthy,
because I think theirpersonality kind of comes out,
even if it's like a more quietreserve type.
It usually projects to right,whereas like if someone's not
totally sure of themselves it'slike hard to be hard to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
How does that interfere with like family
dinners, dating, meeting peoplelike new?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, dating, meeting people like new yeah, I
wouldn't say interferes.
I think it's like really fun.
It's a really fun conversationtopic.
The funny thing is the reasonwhy I wrote the book was I was
actually writing a lot ofscreenplays.
I shuttered my company or Isold it, and then I started
writing screenplays because thatwas my academic background and
I wanted to get back intowriting and joined a writing
group, went to a bar aftereveryone started talking about
the animals because I was likeoh, oh, by the way, you know, I
(10:17):
think you might be a dolphin oryou might be a panda and people
started getting into it and afriend of mine was like you
should write a book on this,yeah.
And I was like, oh, maybe not.
And then she put it in a TV showthat she wrote for, and so then
I was like okay, now I guess Iyou know, right now I mean
technically, I'm supposed to beworking on a follow-up
(10:39):
non-fiction like book and I I amworking on it in the mind.
Um, I want to do like arelationships book based on the
animal types, um, but I'm takinga little it's not, I want to
say a segue a little sojourninto um, I'm writing prose, so
I'm writing a novel right now,at the moment.
Yeah, um, give me a littlecreative stuff I like that it's
probably good for your.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I mean, I you know writing is such an art that's
like a stupid thing to say,because of course it is, but
like people don't necessarilyrealize that yeah, I well,
that's super frustrating, right.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I think artists in general get frustrated when
people don't realize how muchwork goes into their craft,
right.
They're like oh, you're justtalented, right, and you just do
it, and I can do it because I'martistic too, because this is
my creative idea, and it's likeno, it took a lot of work to get
to that point.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, like writing.
You know writer's block andwriting books and dealing with.
You know publishers and editingand oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, the agent query process.
No one loves that process.
It's so brutal and you knowit's just rejection, rejection,
rejection.
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, so that's all right.
So obviously, you know, theworld that we're living in is,
like, filled with many differenttypes of personalities, and
you've said it that diversity iswhat makes humanity strong,
which I like.
That used to be something wecould say without wondering if
someone would judge us or cancelus, but maybe we have to be a
little bit more careful aboutthat.
(11:55):
But so share your thoughtsabout that, like about the
diversity of personality.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, you know, I think it's one of those things
where I think theoretically italways sounds good, but
sometimes are natural, andthings especially because, like
look, it's going to seem likeI'm picking on this particular
pack, but half the populationfits into one pack and they like
safety and security.
So I think when your main coredesire and value is safety and
security, it helps to in a wayput people into boxes but then
in a weird way also try to getthem to be like you because that
makes you feel safer.
(12:24):
You're like oh, this person'stotally different.
You can't be like that, and Ithink that kind of pervades
society.
So I think the more diversitywe get of opinions and also the
more freedom we have to voicethose opinions and be different,
I think, as long as you're nothurting anyone, I think it's
better for society, right,because we get different
viewpoints.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Hopefully.
I mean that's good listeningskills and flexibility.
I want to get to your book, thePower of Personality, in a
moment because it just popped inmy head.
I actually was doing arecording yesterday on someone
else's show and this was like aquant stats person and was
asking about masculinity andfemininity.
And I said, well, as a quantstats person and was asking
about masculinity and femininity.
And I said, well, as a quantstats person, actually that is
the most like unreliable indexof the MMPI.
(13:04):
So the Minnesota MultiphasePersonality Inventory.
I don't know if you everstudied that one MMPI.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
No, I haven't no.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So psychologists, this is like the most studied
personality test out there.
It's like 500 and somequestions and so, but the um,
the masculine feminine index, isthe most unreliable.
So I'm sort of curious whenyou're talking about these 16
types in the boxes, do you havea sense of like, uh, the sort of
social construct of masculineand feminine and sort of how
that plays into some of yourpersonality?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
work?
Yeah, it's such a greatquestion because, you know,
obviously we have biologicaldifferences, but in terms of
personality, I found, especiallyworking with thousands kids a
year, it's like really there'sno, like you know.
Obviously they say like men aremore aggressive and you know
women are more, or girls aremore passive or not passive.
I should say, what's the complike?
Creative or more diplomatic andbetter working with people.
(13:53):
I'm like god, I lived with twowomen who are not, were very
aggressive and were very, notdiplomatic, and maybe that
helped me because I was like, ohokay, this is how women can
also be, while also societytelling us they should be this
way, right, and I think thathelped me a lot.
I'm referring to my oldersister and my mom, who were very
.
I would say stronger personalitytypes Good for them.
(14:17):
No, I very uh, I would saystronger personality types.
Um, good for them.
No, I I respect that.
Uh, you know, having an oldersister who's always yelling at
you and bossing you around butlike, not like in that older
sibling kind of way more, in thekind of like I'm just gonna
bully you kind of way I thinkthat was helpful, like you were
doing to your brother yeah, youknow what did bertrand russell
say?
you know, like the older kids orthe younger kids do it to the
ones younger than them becausethe older kids bully them.
Exactly now that's the way ofthe world.
(14:38):
Um, yeah, I think that's.
I think with men, with,especially with the cultures,
too, right, people are like, oh,I'm from this culture, so we're
like this.
I'm like, really, because youcould find statistically right,
you can find like tons of peoplewho are from your culture, who
are not going to act that way.
Right, they are, they're justpretending that's an interesting
point.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I almost want to digest that further, because you
know we in psychology wouldtalk about self as context,
contextual behaviorism, and sothat's where multicultural
competence comes in.
Because we there are, there ispermission to act certain way
because of your cultural context.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But what you're saying is that, yes, and
personality like varies evenwithin those cultures oh yeah, I
always use example, like ifyou're like a um, let's say, a
peacock and a peacockpersonality type and they love
touch and they love to like, hugand everything, and you're you
grew up in, you know,traditional east asian household
, right, you're gonna feel alittle constrained, you know,
(15:32):
and it's like you're supposed toact a certain way.
And you know, if you flip it tolike uh, like a more like um, a
type that like a shark thatwants their personal space and
they're like in a latino culture, you know they're gonna have
relatives hugging and kissingthem like no, no, like, please
stay away, right, you know, Ithink it kind of sucks for
personality types like thembecause they're just put in a
situation where you know it'snot the best I saw something up
(15:54):
on that recently where it waslike uh, just because you're a
hugger doesn't mean I need to be.
Oh, I like that, yeah, or viceversa.
You know, just because you knowyou're not a hugger, come here.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, but you know it is like a real evasion of
personal space.
Yeah, in that example.
Yeah, all right, so tell us.
So your friend motivated you towrite the power of personality,
sort of at a, because they putit into a screen, right?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, they well, they put it into one of the episodes
of this TV show they areworking on and like they use
animals and these, the peopleare taking a test.
It was a bottle episode ofmythic quest where they're all
like doing this test and shechanged the animals, of course,
to make them funny.
Yeah, but I'm like, oh, likeeveryone in the writer's room
really liked it.
So I was like, oh, ok, maybeyou know I will like and I could
pitch it that way to agents andyou know, and so that's kind of
(16:43):
what I started doing and itonly took a few months to write
the book, but obviously theagent and publishing process was
quite a long time.
No-transcript to become a testbasically.
(17:06):
So, because I'm not a huge fanof, like you know, cookie cutter
tasks, because they're all Imean, they are the same, that's
what they are, um, so I wantpeople to learn, like kind of
more the craft of personalitytyping and just kind of, you
read the book.
Ideally you'll pick up that andlike, utilize the years of
intuition that everybody has inmeeting people.
Yeah, because, um, andhopefully, utilize that to
(17:27):
become the test basically youalso re-examine the assumptions
around birth order.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So we've already talked about the cultural
stereotypes, but what aboutbirth order?
Because you and I we alreadystarted this episode with this
all right.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
We're like yeah, oh, I was a bully apparently and you
were bullied.
Yes, do you have any younger?
Because you said you're theyoungest.
Oh, I'm the.
Yeah, oh, you're the youngest,youngest, you have younger
sisters?
Oh, wow, yeah, okay, yeah, withbirth order, it's okay.
This is my hypothesis with birthorder, which I found is, since
half the population are thattype, that value safety and
security.
If you have an older siblingwho is that personality pack,
(18:03):
then they will definitely bewhat we think of as the older
sibling, like parentalresponsible, and so that fits
half the time.
So I think most people are like, oh, yeah, it works, because
half the time people are seeingthat among their older siblings.
Um, I myself did not have myolder sister was not in that
personality pack, she was in thehunter pack.
I call them hunters for areason they're aggressive, they
(18:24):
go for what they want, they liketheir freedom.
So as an older, I never saw heras like the parental
responsible figure.
I saw her as the sibling whowanted to get in trouble and I
would join her and we'd have funyeah, um.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so what are the?
What are the like?
What do you just spell aboutbeing last born, about the
youngest child?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, I think the last born is.
So the flip side, generallylast born is thought of in I
know I'm throwing out all theseterms for my book but like the
hunter pack is like all aboutexcitement and freedom and
having fun.
And I think last born tends toget that like, oh, they're the
ones you get to like, you know,misbehave and stuff, as opposed
to the older sibling.
But it's, the funny thing is Ialso got a reverse of that,
because our youngest sibling sothere's three of us my younger
(19:07):
brother, he's a gatherer, so hevalues safety and security, so
he's the responsible one, he'sthe conscientious one.
He tells us like, hey, it'smom's birthday, what do you want
to get her?
And my sister and I do notrespond to his text.
And then he's like okay, Ithink I'll think of I was
thinking of getting her this.
No response, okay, I got herthis.
And then we respond we're like,okay, we'll, venmo you.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Venmo.
Yeah, I was going to say insertVenmo.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, here's my tag, like it's funny because that's
totally in reverse right and Ifeel like probably people have
experiences like that well aswell, and I saw that a lot
working with a lot of differentstudents because we'd work with
a lot of siblings and you couldsee that dynamic wasn't always
the case, you know, it wasn'tthe oldest always like the
responsible one.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You.
You really made personalitytyping fun.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I hope so it should be fun.
It's about people, and peopleare fun.
Yeah, I think it's fun.
Everyone loves talking aboutpeople.
Everyone loves the the cheeseMay.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Would you ever?
Would you ever like talk toparents or the families about
this when you were doing thetutoring or in that life, when
you were?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
you know, the funny thing is I would we use it in
most, I would interact withparents most when we were
recruiting them to sign up withus.
And so I do it at fairs wherelike, oh yeah, I can see your
children are like this and likethis and we'll treat each of
them differently based on theirpersonality type, because
obviously different personalitytypes grow in different ways and
need different things.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, I love that.
So maybe you tell us like asuccess story, because I know
that your whole business modelis about empowering people into
the truest, best version ofthemselves.
So like, how have you seen thisreally transform?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
somebody you know I'll do one that I'm working, a
client with I'm working withright now and because this is a
type of client I often get,which is I would mention, the
shaman pack they they seek umself-identity and self-knowledge
and when they're younger theycan feel like weirdos because
they're like, wow, like I don'treally want.
I grades are kind of important,but kind of and I actually
don't like to go outside as muchand have fun.
I mean I do, but I don't.
(20:59):
So I have a student whoactually told me the other day
she was like and she's 12.
Oh, no, 13.
You don't want to get thatwrong, she's 13.
She's like I don't want to growup.
And I was like oh, you know,like there's nothing, how you
feel you are going to have togrow, but you don't have to grow
up in the way you think you do.
And you've been told I foundthose types of students I've had
(21:21):
the most success with in termsof letting them know it's okay
to be themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I totally get what she means by she doesn't want to
grow up into this boring like,quote-unquote responsible, you
know person that her parents arealways trying to tell her to be
yeah, she can be herself and Ifind that a lot with my students
that is so valid, how much youthink like the the students have
changed since you started thisto today, and like the impact of
technology well, I mean, it isin terms of so I use a lot of
(21:48):
like entertainment to like sothat they can find they can
analyze characters in a show.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
If they can do that, then they can start analyzing
themselves, because I think whenwe try to analyze ourselves
it's a lot harder.
Yes, and so I'm noticing thatthe big thing is like I use game
of thrones all the time andthey're like I'm like so what's
the?
And I'll use like moviereferences, like so let's just
you, what's the latest movieyou've seen?
And they're like uh, I haven'tseen a movie in like five years
or four years Like what do?
You do Well.
Okay, TV show, no, I'm likewhat do you watch?
(22:15):
YouTube yes, YouTube.
I was like yeah, Like all theseinfluencers, I was like, come
on, like there's like some greatwriters that are creating these
great works of art ontelevision, and no, and that's
probably the biggest change.
So you offer life coaching andalso writing coaching.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, oh so good, no, go ahead, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Oh, I started writing coaching at first because that
was my academic background andthat's when I led into the life
coaching, because I found that alot of times, writing is not
about not a lot of times, almostall the time, writing really
isn't about structure.
It of times, almost all thetime, writing really isn't about
structure.
It's not about grammar, it'snot about using all these fancy
sat words that kids always thinkthat they have to do.
It's more about just peoplehaving a voice and expressing
(23:01):
the way that they express thebest version of themselves put
on paper.
And you can't find that untilyou find yourself.
And that's where the lifecoaching came in I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's important.
It sounds like an acting I keptthinking about.
You know, acting actors have todo the same thing oh yeah, like
figuring out how they're gonnalike project right, because
everyone does it differentlyyeah, I, I find I have the
opposite problem because, um, Ihad a student, uh, who writes
for a living, um, but thenwriting a dissertation is much
different than writing for aliving.
You, know, like you know,writing for a living, you want
(23:30):
to be, you know, fun and cuteand all that stuff and
dissertations like are notreally that fun and cute, like
they're not meant to be, likethey're academic.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
See, if they tell them no, be less cute and fun.
Yes, yes, just be and beacademic.
What is, what is, what isacademic sound like?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Oh, my goodness, I don't.
Are you asking me that?
Because I will, goodness, Idon't, are you?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
asking me that?
Because I will.
I will answer it.
Yeah, no, that was, that was an, that was a question.
That was an as an academic.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, it's, it's uh , it's disconnected, probably a
lot of times, like I, really, Ibelieve this is one of my
biggest issues with academia isthat we I, it's, it's beautiful,
you know, it's it's importantthat we educate and grow, and I
think that's always what highered was about.
Is was growing.
I think that, like, so the waytechnology comes in, you have
(24:16):
all these memberships ofdifferent journals and all the
same people like, say with, likefunding or reviewing each
other's work, so it becomes veryinsular and you know they want
to talk about disseminationtoday, in 2025, as we're
recording this, and it's like,what are they doing to
disseminate?
And so one of the grants Iwrote, I wrote, like you know,
podcasts and like weeklyinterviews on, you know,
(24:36):
national television and they'relike, and that was like they
deduced, they like reduced myscore because of that.
They're like oh, he put that asa scientific contribution.
No, that is a scientificcontribution.
Who is reading your journal?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right, yeah, exactly Like the consumer right.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Who is the consumer?
Even it's just same people thathave the same degrees and the
same research as you, or maybethey're graduate students, so
like we're not reaching people.
So I think that is my mission,that's why I have on air with Dr
Pete is like trying to reallydisseminate this stuff out, and
I love how you did this in a funway, like we were able to talk
about Myers-Briggs, minnesota,multifasic, like other things
that are out there which isscience based, and now people
(25:16):
could say, hey, this might bewhy I'm having you know,
unhealthy relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Right, connecting it to a context, right, where, if
you just look at it like yousaid, disconnected, it's just
like okay, that's.
I think.
When we think of school, I findthat with a lot of kids where
they're like they separateschool and life, right, and they
just don't think of those astwo like no, I do well in school
and then I have fun here.
It's like no, they're the same.
Life is fun, school should befun, you're learning and it's
all integrated absolutely, andthe brain can't actually
(25:42):
separate that.
Yeah, you know, yeah, we try to,but it can't you know.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So the we have a thing in sports we say like the
way you do one thing is whereyou do all things.
You know that's a little tooabsolute for me, my zen self,
but there's some truth to this,like there's truth to like your
brain doesn't know.
Oh, I want to feel good hereand not, you know, not here, or
right, yeah like safety.
I want to feel safety in thisplace.
My brain's going to create astory about it.
(26:08):
It doesn't work that way I have.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I always find that with academia too.
So for some reason I waswatching the, an old show called
masters of sex.
Yeah, I was cause I'm writingmy novel and it's a little bit
more nuanced.
I wanted to like get back inthat nuanced mindset, but it's
funny, cause in that interactionthey had that same thing and
it's based on a true story wherethe guy's like no, I want to
know this stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Why put it like in a journal, where only you know
like doctors are going to readit.
Well, there it is, thank you.
Thank you for that, eric.
This has been fun, and I knowwe could probably talk a lot
longer, but we're alreadywrapping up.
So where can people find you,cause I, you know you do some
coaching virtually as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, you know you can find me on project utopiacom
and that's a Y O U like YouTube.
So project utopiacom, um, andif you want to take the test, I
believe I sent the link over,but that's another website.
And if you were like, why doyou have two websites?
And it's like that's causeone's a WordPress and one's not
a WordPress.
You know, I don't know, I'm nota software engineer, but it's
the other way around.
Utopiaprojectcom is where youcan find the test and you can
(27:16):
buy the book anywhere you orderbooks.
If you want to give Jeff Bezosyour money, find it on Amazon.
He's had a big wedding, yeah,if you want to help Jeff Bezos
pay for, even though I'm sure hecould afford it.
I'm sure it's already paid forhe didn't put that wedding on
layaway.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, probably not, Eric.
Thanks so much for being here.
It was really for your insightaround personality.
You do make it fun and this wasa great talk.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Oh, thanks so much.
I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, so you could head over to utopiaprojectcom
and we'll have all those linksin the show notes if you want to
take your personality testtoday or learn more about Eric.
Thank you for listening at home.
We appreciate your constantsupport.
As always, we encourage you tolike, share and follow
Everything's atofficialdrpetecom.
I'll see you back here nextweek, so until then, spread a
little kindness and stay well,thank you.
Hello and welcome back to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and I hope you're still
enjoying summer and resting andrecharging.
I know I'm doing the best I canto stay outside because here on
the East Coast we have to enjoythis because we don't get this
all year round, unlike my guesttoday who in LA can enjoy this,
and so a little slower summerpace for us here on the East
(00:37):
Coast.
But I'm excited to introduceyou this guest.
This is Eric G, an accomplishedauthor and creator of Utopia
Project, a personality-basedlife coaching business.
He's a UCLA graduate.
We're going to talk about theBig Ten, how they joined the Big
Ten this year and use hispersonality typing method to
better the lives of thousands ofpeople around the world.
His website, the Utopia Project, has over a half a million
(01:00):
users and his impactful coachinghas been used by Hulu, disney,
private universities and morethan 40 districts throughout the
US.
So, eric, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you so much for having me and you know I love
the reference to the Big Ten.
That made me cringe a littlebit, but you know well, why
would you?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Why?
What about the UCLA and theBruins?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
We got knocked around a bit this year.
We got knocked around a bit,but you know next year will be
great.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
you know I complained about the nil but we got a
great quarterback, uh, throughthe nil.
So you know that's how thatgoes.
Nil is hurting us here on theeast coast.
You know well, I guess it'ssimilar to you, to la, but not
as much.
East coast is so dense in likeschools and just stuff that like
in a 20, 30 mile radius youcould have like two huge
universities, which I guess youguys have right, because you
have like Stanford, ucla.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, there is another school in Los Angeles,
but I don't really mention themtoo much, but yeah, there's that
USC that other crap school.
No, just kidding that other BigTen school yes, that other Big
Ten school.
Now they got knocked around abit too.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So you know, I'm happy to see that all the time.
So, look, I am a professor anddo this at ruckers and so I know
knocking around I mean it is apart of uh, growth and if you,
if you know, you mentioned yourbrother earlier and um, as uh,
uh, I'm one of three boys andyou get knocked around a little
bit and helps grow uh, are youthe youngest, middle or oldest?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm the?
Oh, I'm the youngest, oh, oh,oh, that's painful.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So definitely knocked around.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, definitely knocked around, which makes you
stronger.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
It makes us stronger.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
That's what I told myself when I would beat my
brother up it makes you stronger, trust me.
You're crying now, but you know, in a few years, maybe 30 years
you're going to appreciate this.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So tell us a bit about yourself.
So I know you graduated fromUCLA we've already got into that
and you studied Englishliterature and screenwriting,
and so what did you do when youwere first out of college?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You know, first out of college I was a starter at a
golf course, you know, andpeople are like what?
Like making minimum wage islike.
You know, it was like the oneof the best jobs I've ever had
because you get to meet so manypeople.
Yeah, and you know, obviously Iwrote a book on personality
typing and I don't think I wouldhave been able to do that if
not for that job or other jobswhere I'm interacting with
people constantly and trying toengage with them and, you know,
(03:07):
trying to like figure out whothey are, because I want to make
that the best experience forthem so what?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
what is so?
A starter, for those that don'tknow, at a golf course they're
like a host or hostess at arestaurant.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So they are important in that they're the people who
people try to bribe so they canget on the tea.
I was a bartender oh, oh,that's, that's that's.
You see a lot of people thentalk about personality typing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
So that's why we always joke and say that's what
led me into becoming apsychologist.
Oh, you heard a lot of people'sproblems.
You hear a lot of people'sproblems.
Do starters hear a lot ofpeople problems like if they're
having a good day or a bad day,or a good, it's always.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
It's always happy, they're always happy.
But then they're always upsetabout their game, like, oh, it
sucked today, but you know I hadfun.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
But I sucked, you know, yeah, yeah, so, um, all
right.
So your, your career hasobviously since evolved, so tell
us about that yeah, you know itwas funny.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
So then I worked at the golf course and or the golf
course, yeah, the golf courseand I was on the mic and I would
say, like you know, next up onthe t-box, the john threesome
and someone said that I had agreat voice for radio and they
said also that I had a greatface for radio.
I think that was an insult, butum, so then I started doing a
radio show, um, you know, like alittle internet radio show,
(04:17):
before podcasts and themid-aughts, and um, I started
also at the same time, becausethat didn't really pay the bills
, I also started teaching ortutoring.
Okay, and you know, throughthat I started learning about
the education process and thenthrough that, I started my own
education company.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
What were you?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
tutoring.
We were doing math and English,so it was for the no child left
behind.
But really I was kind of makingit my own right, Like they
didn't have us on a tight leashso I could kind of do what I
wanted.
Who's the they in that thatthey would be?
Uh, what was the name of thatcompany?
Speaker 1 (04:51):
oh, you don't have to say oh, it was your company, so
you could say the name of it.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
But oh sorry, it was a pre.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So there's a previous company that I worked for and
then I branched off of that andstarted my own yeah, so because
I've had a lot of conversationsabout no child left behind, and
so someone listening might notknow what that is, and so I
think it's one of those thingsin life that it's like it's good
in theory but not in practice Idon't know if you agree with me
okay yeah, oh, no, 100.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I'll be honest, like we had like so many companies
that were competing with us whenI started my own company.
Yeah, and people are competingbecause the students get the
tutoring for free, through, nochild left Behind.
And you know, a lot of peopleare trying to take advantage of
the parents because, let's faceit, some of the parents are not
the most sophisticated and sothey just try to give them free
stuff, with the parents notknowing how valuable that free
stuff is versus the tutoring,which was way more valuable and
(05:35):
expensive.
Nice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So so this starter at the golf course kind of
contributed to becoming apersonality tester, but so you
got into personality trainingyeah, you know like so that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So the interest started when I was in high
school and I felt like I was abig weirdo even though I guess I
wasn't treated like a weirdobecause I could, I could, I
could pass yeah, but I think ingeneral, like I was like wow, so
pass as a non-weirdo yeah, Iwas like what, how is it a
non-weirdo?
Yeah, passer or passing and anduh, yeah.
So I just uh got into thatbecause I was like, well, you
(06:08):
know, I feel really differentthan people, so let me figure
out this stuff.
And I started reading up on thedifferent personality typing
methodologies and yeah.
So then I brought it back towhen I started owning the or I
own the tutoring company andstarted working with a bunch of
kids, and that's when we starteddeveloping my own methodology
and so how did you, you developthat?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I mean, can you give us a little bit of break that
down for us simple people?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Oh well, I'm much simpler than that, so I'll break
it down even simpler.
Yeah, you know, I was reallyfamiliar with MBTI, which I
think a lot of people like 16personality types, so I really
evolved from that.
So my personality typingmethodology does have 16 types
as well, but does have 16 typesas well, but how you diagnose
and get to those types is veryvery different.
What's the biggest difference?
I would say I focus strongly onvalues and from those values,
(06:50):
core values, I split people tothe four different.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I call them packs yeah, because I use animal types
for my personalities, I sawthat yeah, it's an oh, don't
tell me oh, I was gonna guessthat I was.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
I swear to god, I was gonna guess.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, we'll never know now, Ah gosh.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You know, like I love guessing and you definitely
have that dolphin energy.
You're coming off like verywelcoming, open, but also like
that's an interest of yours,right?
It's psychology andunderstanding people, yeah,
where other types that are moreopen and friendly are more like
oh, let me help you get married,are more like oh, let me help
you get married.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
You know, or like let me hook you up with people.
So how did you come to theanimal test then, like, what was
that about?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, you know, like I think animals are just easy to
remember for people and I meanit was tough to find like
archetypal animals, like forsome of the personality types,
like a shark.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You say shark, a fox, people are like, okay, I get
that Narrow, uh, fox, sharp,clever james bond suave um
others were a little bit harder,like I'm like um a humpback
whale right, but it doesn't havea reason.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You call me fat.
Yeah, oh gosh, the elephant.
I'll be like they're like.
What's my personality?
I'm an elephant.
Wait, you're saying I'm fatyeah, like no, I'm just saying
you heard, you know you bringpeople together, you know yeah,
but yeah, that's where I almostcame from.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Elephants are beautiful like just from like a
a family systems perspective andjust, uh, you know, really
energetically and um, oh yeah,so if before now again, we'll
never know the real truth tothis, but like if you were in
your head trying to figure myanimal out, what was like a
second or third one that youwere maybe thinking um, a baboon
(08:23):
.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So they?
Because that obviously I'd pickanimals that all fall under the
same pack, right, becausealthough if you fall in the same
pack then you're going to havesimilarities, but then they'll
manifest maybe differently.
Um, I would have probably saida baboon.
Yeah, because baboons anddolphins within that, I call
them the shaman pack.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
They're a lot more outward with their energy,
they're a lot more, I hate tosay, extroverted, because I
don't totally know inextroversion, but like they're a
lot more warm, they're warmerand more uh vocal versus the
other types it's funny you saythat because I mean most when I
teach this stuff, like withmyers-briggs type indicator mbti
, like we said earlier, likeit's no one's just, it's not
absolute, and so in grad schoolI was definitely a stronger e
(09:01):
than I am today.
You, you know, and so and oneof my and I one of my professors
always loved, and she crackedherself up about the percept,
the P or perspective perceptivebecause she would say, when she
would refer to it she would saymy P-ness.
She thought that was hystericalbut I guess that's just
psychologists.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
but yeah, that's a psychology joke.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
But you got it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, no, I got it.
That, that's.
That's how nerdy I am.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
No, I love that can you tell pretty quickly about
like what animal somebody is?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
You know it depends on the person.
I always say to like, thequicker I can tell.
Then actually they're probablymore emotionally healthy,
because I think theirpersonality kind of comes out,
even if it's like a more quietreserve type.
It usually projects to right,whereas like if someone's not
totally sure of themselves it'slike hard to be hard to tell.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
How does that interfere with like family
dinners, dating, meeting peoplelike new?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, dating, meeting people like new yeah, I
wouldn't say interferes.
I think it's like really fun.
It's a really fun conversationtopic.
The funny thing is the reasonwhy I wrote the book was I was
actually writing a lot ofscreenplays.
I shuttered my company or Isold it, and then I started
writing screenplays because thatwas my academic background and
I wanted to get back intowriting and joined a writing
group, went to a bar aftereveryone started talking about
the animals because I was likeoh, oh, by the way, you know, I
(10:17):
think you might be a dolphin oryou might be a panda and people
started getting into it and afriend of mine was like you
should write a book on this,yeah.
And I was like, oh, maybe not.
And then she put it in a TV showthat she wrote for, and so then
I was like okay, now I guess Iyou know, right now I mean
technically, I'm supposed to beworking on a follow-up
(10:39):
non-fiction like book and I I amworking on it in the mind.
Um, I want to do like arelationships book based on the
animal types, um, but I'm takinga little it's not, I want to
say a segue a little sojourninto um, I'm writing prose, so
I'm writing a novel right now,at the moment.
Yeah, um, give me a littlecreative stuff I like that it's
probably good for your.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I mean, I you know writing is such an art that's
like a stupid thing to say,because of course it is, but
like people don't necessarilyrealize that yeah, I well,
that's super frustrating, right.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I think artists in general get frustrated when
people don't realize how muchwork goes into their craft,
right.
They're like oh, you're justtalented, right, and you just do
it, and I can do it because I'martistic too, because this is
my creative idea, and it's likeno, it took a lot of work to get
to that point.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, like writing.
You know writer's block andwriting books and dealing with.
You know publishers and editingand oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, the agent query process.
No one loves that process.
It's so brutal and you knowit's just rejection, rejection,
rejection.
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, so that's all right.
So obviously, you know, theworld that we're living in is,
like, filled with many differenttypes of personalities, and
you've said it that diversity iswhat makes humanity strong,
which I like.
That used to be something wecould say without wondering if
someone would judge us or cancelus, but maybe we have to be a
little bit more careful aboutthat.
(11:55):
But so share your thoughtsabout that, like about the
diversity of personality.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, you know, I think it's one of those things
where I think theoretically italways sounds good, but
sometimes are natural, andthings especially because, like
look, it's going to seem likeI'm picking on this particular
pack, but half the populationfits into one pack and they like
safety and security.
So I think when your main coredesire and value is safety and
security, it helps to in a wayput people into boxes but then
in a weird way also try to getthem to be like you because that
makes you feel safer.
(12:24):
You're like oh, this person'stotally different.
You can't be like that, and Ithink that kind of pervades
society.
So I think the more diversitywe get of opinions and also the
more freedom we have to voicethose opinions and be different,
I think, as long as you're nothurting anyone, I think it's
better for society, right,because we get different
viewpoints.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Hopefully.
I mean that's good listeningskills and flexibility.
I want to get to your book, thePower of Personality, in a
moment because it just popped inmy head.
I actually was doing arecording yesterday on someone
else's show and this was like aquant stats person and was
asking about masculinity andfemininity.
And I said, well, as a quantstats person and was asking
about masculinity and femininity.
And I said, well, as a quantstats person, actually that is
the most like unreliable indexof the MMPI.
(13:04):
So the Minnesota MultiphasePersonality Inventory.
I don't know if you everstudied that one MMPI.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
No, I haven't no.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So psychologists, this is like the most studied
personality test out there.
It's like 500 and somequestions and so, but the um,
the masculine feminine index, isthe most unreliable.
So I'm sort of curious whenyou're talking about these 16
types in the boxes, do you havea sense of like, uh, the sort of
social construct of masculineand feminine and sort of how
that plays into some of yourpersonality?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
work?
Yeah, it's such a greatquestion because, you know,
obviously we have biologicaldifferences, but in terms of
personality, I found, especiallyworking with thousands kids a
year, it's like really there'sno, like you know.
Obviously they say like men aremore aggressive and you know
women are more, or girls aremore passive or not passive.
I should say, what's the complike?
Creative or more diplomatic andbetter working with people.
(13:53):
I'm like god, I lived with twowomen who are not, were very
aggressive and were very, notdiplomatic, and maybe that
helped me because I was like, ohokay, this is how women can
also be, while also societytelling us they should be this
way, right, and I think thathelped me a lot.
I'm referring to my oldersister and my mom, who were very
.
I would say stronger personalitytypes Good for them.
(14:17):
No, I very uh, I would saystronger personality types.
Um, good for them.
No, I I respect that.
Uh, you know, having an oldersister who's always yelling at
you and bossing you around butlike, not like in that older
sibling kind of way more, in thekind of like I'm just gonna
bully you kind of way I thinkthat was helpful, like you were
doing to your brother yeah, youknow what did bertrand russell
say?
you know, like the older kids orthe younger kids do it to the
ones younger than them becausethe older kids bully them.
Exactly now that's the way ofthe world.
(14:38):
Um, yeah, I think that's.
I think with men, with,especially with the cultures,
too, right, people are like, oh,I'm from this culture, so we're
like this.
I'm like, really, because youcould find statistically right,
you can find like tons of peoplewho are from your culture, who
are not going to act that way.
Right, they are, they're justpretending that's an interesting
point.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I almost want to digest that further, because you
know we in psychology wouldtalk about self as context,
contextual behaviorism, and sothat's where multicultural
competence comes in.
Because we there are, there ispermission to act certain way
because of your cultural context.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But what you're saying is that, yes, and
personality like varies evenwithin those cultures oh yeah, I
always use example, like ifyou're like a um, let's say, a
peacock and a peacockpersonality type and they love
touch and they love to like, hugand everything, and you're you
grew up in, you know,traditional east asian household
, right, you're gonna feel alittle constrained, you know,
(15:32):
and it's like you're supposed toact a certain way.
And you know, if you flip it tolike uh, like a more like um, a
type that like a shark thatwants their personal space and
they're like in a latino culture, you know they're gonna have
relatives hugging and kissingthem like no, no, like, please
stay away, right, you know, Ithink it kind of sucks for
personality types like thembecause they're just put in a
situation where you know it'snot the best I saw something up
(15:54):
on that recently where it waslike uh, just because you're a
hugger doesn't mean I need to be.
Oh, I like that, yeah, or viceversa.
You know, just because you knowyou're not a hugger, come here.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, but you know it is like a real evasion of
personal space.
Yeah, in that example.
Yeah, all right, so tell us.
So your friend motivated you towrite the power of personality,
sort of at a, because they putit into a screen, right?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, they well, they put it into one of the episodes
of this TV show they areworking on and like they use
animals and these, the peopleare taking a test.
It was a bottle episode ofmythic quest where they're all
like doing this test and shechanged the animals, of course,
to make them funny.
Yeah, but I'm like, oh, likeeveryone in the writer's room
really liked it.
So I was like, oh, ok, maybeyou know I will like and I could
pitch it that way to agents andyou know, and so that's kind of
(16:43):
what I started doing and itonly took a few months to write
the book, but obviously theagent and publishing process was
quite a long time.
No-transcript to become a testbasically.
(17:06):
So, because I'm not a huge fanof, like you know, cookie cutter
tasks, because they're all Imean, they are the same, that's
what they are, um, so I wantpeople to learn, like kind of
more the craft of personalitytyping and just kind of, you
read the book.
Ideally you'll pick up that andlike, utilize the years of
intuition that everybody has inmeeting people.
Yeah, because, um, andhopefully, utilize that to
(17:27):
become the test basically youalso re-examine the assumptions
around birth order.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So we've already talked about the cultural
stereotypes, but what aboutbirth order?
Because you and I we alreadystarted this episode with this
all right.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
We're like yeah, oh, I was a bully apparently and you
were bullied.
Yes, do you have any younger?
Because you said you're theyoungest.
Oh, I'm the.
Yeah, oh, you're the youngest,youngest, you have younger
sisters?
Oh, wow, yeah, okay, yeah, withbirth order, it's okay.
This is my hypothesis with birthorder, which I found is, since
half the population are thattype, that value safety and
security.
If you have an older siblingwho is that personality pack,
(18:03):
then they will definitely bewhat we think of as the older
sibling, like parentalresponsible, and so that fits
half the time.
So I think most people are like, oh, yeah, it works, because
half the time people are seeingthat among their older siblings.
Um, I myself did not have myolder sister was not in that
personality pack, she was in thehunter pack.
I call them hunters for areason they're aggressive, they
(18:24):
go for what they want, they liketheir freedom.
So as an older, I never saw heras like the parental
responsible figure.
I saw her as the sibling whowanted to get in trouble and I
would join her and we'd have funyeah, um.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so what are the?
What are the like?
What do you just spell aboutbeing last born, about the
youngest child?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, I think the last born is.
So the flip side, generallylast born is thought of in I
know I'm throwing out all theseterms for my book but like the
hunter pack is like all aboutexcitement and freedom and
having fun.
And I think last born tends toget that like, oh, they're the
ones you get to like, you know,misbehave and stuff, as opposed
to the older sibling.
But it's, the funny thing is Ialso got a reverse of that,
because our youngest sibling sothere's three of us my younger
(19:07):
brother, he's a gatherer, so hevalues safety and security, so
he's the responsible one, he'sthe conscientious one.
He tells us like, hey, it'smom's birthday, what do you want
to get her?
And my sister and I do notrespond to his text.
And then he's like okay, Ithink I'll think of I was
thinking of getting her this.
No response, okay, I got herthis.
And then we respond we're like,okay, we'll, venmo you.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Venmo.
Yeah, I was going to say insertVenmo.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, here's my tag, like it's funny because that's
totally in reverse right and Ifeel like probably people have
experiences like that well aswell, and I saw that a lot
working with a lot of differentstudents because we'd work with
a lot of siblings and you couldsee that dynamic wasn't always
the case, you know, it wasn'tthe oldest always like the
responsible one.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You.
You really made personalitytyping fun.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I hope so it should be fun.
It's about people, and peopleare fun.
Yeah, I think it's fun.
Everyone loves talking aboutpeople.
Everyone loves the the cheeseMay.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Would you ever?
Would you ever like talk toparents or the families about
this when you were doing thetutoring or in that life, when
you were?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
you know, the funny thing is I would we use it in
most, I would interact withparents most when we were
recruiting them to sign up withus.
And so I do it at fairs wherelike, oh yeah, I can see your
children are like this and likethis and we'll treat each of
them differently based on theirpersonality type, because
obviously different personalitytypes grow in different ways and
need different things.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, I love that.
So maybe you tell us like asuccess story, because I know
that your whole business modelis about empowering people into
the truest, best version ofthemselves.
So like, how have you seen thisreally transform?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
somebody you know I'll do one that I'm working, a
client with I'm working withright now and because this is a
type of client I often get,which is I would mention, the
shaman pack they they seek umself-identity and self-knowledge
and when they're younger theycan feel like weirdos because
they're like, wow, like I don'treally want.
I grades are kind of important,but kind of and I actually
don't like to go outside as muchand have fun.
I mean I do, but I don't.
(20:59):
So I have a student whoactually told me the other day
she was like and she's 12.
Oh, no, 13.
You don't want to get thatwrong, she's 13.
She's like I don't want to growup.
And I was like oh, you know,like there's nothing, how you
feel you are going to have togrow, but you don't have to grow
up in the way you think you do.
And you've been told I foundthose types of students I've had
(21:21):
the most success with in termsof letting them know it's okay
to be themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
I totally get what she means by she doesn't want to
grow up into this boring like,quote-unquote responsible, you
know person that her parents arealways trying to tell her to be
yeah, she can be herself and Ifind that a lot with my students
that is so valid, how much youthink like the the students have
changed since you started thisto today, and like the impact of
technology well, I mean, it isin terms of so I use a lot of
(21:48):
like entertainment to like sothat they can find they can
analyze characters in a show.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
If they can do that, then they can start analyzing
themselves, because I think whenwe try to analyze ourselves
it's a lot harder.
Yes, and so I'm noticing thatthe big thing is like I use game
of thrones all the time andthey're like I'm like so what's
the?
And I'll use like moviereferences, like so let's just
you, what's the latest movieyou've seen?
And they're like uh, I haven'tseen a movie in like five years
or four years Like what do?
You do Well.
Okay, TV show, no, I'm likewhat do you watch?
(22:15):
YouTube yes, YouTube.
I was like yeah, Like all theseinfluencers, I was like, come
on, like there's like some greatwriters that are creating these
great works of art ontelevision, and no, and that's
probably the biggest change.
So you offer life coaching andalso writing coaching.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, oh so good, no, go ahead, tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Oh, I started writing coaching at first because that
was my academic background andthat's when I led into the life
coaching, because I found that alot of times, writing is not
about not a lot of times, almostall the time, writing really
isn't about structure.
It of times, almost all thetime, writing really isn't about
structure.
It's not about grammar, it'snot about using all these fancy
sat words that kids always thinkthat they have to do.
It's more about just peoplehaving a voice and expressing
(23:01):
the way that they express thebest version of themselves put
on paper.
And you can't find that untilyou find yourself.
And that's where the lifecoaching came in I love that.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
It's important.
It sounds like an acting I keptthinking about.
You know, acting actors have todo the same thing oh yeah, like
figuring out how they're gonnalike project right, because
everyone does it differentlyyeah, I, I find I have the
opposite problem because, um, Ihad a student, uh, who writes
for a living, um, but thenwriting a dissertation is much
different than writing for aliving.
You, know, like you know,writing for a living, you want
(23:30):
to be, you know, fun and cuteand all that stuff and
dissertations like are notreally that fun and cute, like
they're not meant to be, likethey're academic.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
See, if they tell them no, be less cute and fun.
Yes, yes, just be and beacademic.
What is, what is, what isacademic sound like?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Oh, my goodness, I don't.
Are you asking me that?
Because I will, goodness, Idon't, are you?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
asking me that?
Because I will.
I will answer it.
Yeah, no, that was, that was an, that was a question.
That was an as an academic.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, it's, it's uh , it's disconnected, probably a
lot of times, like I, really, Ibelieve this is one of my
biggest issues with academia isthat we I, it's, it's beautiful,
you know, it's it's importantthat we educate and grow, and I
think that's always what highered was about.
Is was growing.
I think that, like, so the waytechnology comes in, you have
(24:16):
all these memberships ofdifferent journals and all the
same people like, say with, likefunding or reviewing each
other's work, so it becomes veryinsular and you know they want
to talk about disseminationtoday, in 2025, as we're
recording this, and it's like,what are they doing to
disseminate?
And so one of the grants Iwrote, I wrote, like you know,
podcasts and like weeklyinterviews on, you know,
(24:36):
national television and they'relike, and that was like they
deduced, they like reduced myscore because of that.
They're like oh, he put that asa scientific contribution.
No, that is a scientificcontribution.
Who is reading your journal?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Right, yeah, exactly Like the consumer right.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Who is the consumer?
Even it's just same people thathave the same degrees and the
same research as you, or maybethey're graduate students, so
like we're not reaching people.
So I think that is my mission,that's why I have on air with Dr
Pete is like trying to reallydisseminate this stuff out, and
I love how you did this in a funway, like we were able to talk
about Myers-Briggs, minnesota,multifasic, like other things
that are out there which isscience based, and now people
(25:16):
could say, hey, this might bewhy I'm having you know,
unhealthy relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Right, connecting it to a context, right, where, if
you just look at it like yousaid, disconnected, it's just
like okay, that's.
I think.
When we think of school, I findthat with a lot of kids where
they're like they separateschool and life, right, and they
just don't think of those astwo like no, I do well in school
and then I have fun here.
It's like no, they're the same.
Life is fun, school should befun, you're learning and it's
all integrated absolutely, andthe brain can't actually
(25:42):
separate that.
Yeah, you know, yeah, we try to,but it can't you know.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
So the we have a thing in sports we say like the
way you do one thing is whereyou do all things.
You know that's a little tooabsolute for me, my zen self,
but there's some truth to this,like there's truth to like your
brain doesn't know.
Oh, I want to feel good hereand not, you know, not here, or
right, yeah like safety.
I want to feel safety in thisplace.
My brain's going to create astory about it.
(26:08):
It doesn't work that way I have.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I always find that with academia too.
So for some reason I waswatching the, an old show called
masters of sex.
Yeah, I was cause I'm writingmy novel and it's a little bit
more nuanced.
I wanted to like get back inthat nuanced mindset, but it's
funny, cause in that interactionthey had that same thing and
it's based on a true story wherethe guy's like no, I want to
know this stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Why put it like in a journal, where only you know
like doctors are going to readit.
Well, there it is, thank you.
Thank you for that, eric.
This has been fun, and I knowwe could probably talk a lot
longer, but we're alreadywrapping up.
So where can people find you,cause I, you know you do some
coaching virtually as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, you know you can find me on project utopiacom
and that's a Y O U like YouTube.
So project utopiacom, um, andif you want to take the test, I
believe I sent the link over,but that's another website.
And if you were like, why doyou have two websites?
And it's like that's causeone's a WordPress and one's not
a WordPress.
You know, I don't know, I'm nota software engineer, but it's
the other way around.
Utopiaprojectcom is where youcan find the test and you can
(27:16):
buy the book anywhere you orderbooks.
If you want to give Jeff Bezosyour money, find it on Amazon.
He's had a big wedding, yeah,if you want to help Jeff Bezos
pay for, even though I'm sure hecould afford it.
I'm sure it's already paid forhe didn't put that wedding on
layaway.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, probably not, Eric.
Thanks so much for being here.
It was really for your insightaround personality.
You do make it fun and this wasa great talk.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Oh, thanks so much.
I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, so you could head over to utopiaprojectcom
and we'll have all those linksin the show notes if you want to
take your personality testtoday or learn more about Eric.
Thank you for listening at home.
We appreciate your constantsupport.
As always, we encourage you tolike, share and follow
Everything's atofficialdrpetecom.
I'll see you back here nextweek, so until then, spread a
little kindness and stay well,thank you.
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