Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello and welcome to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and I am thrilled to be here
today to talk about leadership.
We are going to dive into thisfascinating world of leadership,
exploring the psychologicalprinciples that separate good
leaders from truly exceptionalones and then the not so great
ones.
And so you know, this issomething that we do as
(00:38):
psychologists, where we might bedoing some kind of executive
coaching or personnel assessmentin helping organizations
function at the best level, andcertainly that does impact how
people lead and the leadershipstyles.
So let's look at thisLeadership isn't just about
holding a title or position,it's about influence.
(00:59):
There's different types ofleaders.
You know there's democratictransformational types of
leaders.
There's democratictransformational and these are
people that are just trying toauthoritative.
These different leadershipstyles are not good or bad, and
so when I do a lot of this ineither the corporate world or in
the sports world, it's to saythat you want a little bit of
balance At certain points intime.
You want different kind ofleaders.
(01:21):
You might need an authoritativeleader from time to time, even
though that might be seennegatively, and this is a leader
who sort of dictatorship like,it's just very single lined top
down, do what I say, andsometimes not as I do.
And again, you know, in timesof high stress, in times of
really intense change, you kindof want someone like that,
(01:41):
whereas a transformationalleader is really going to think
about mission and buy in andcollaboration, democratic will
also be more collaborative inthat kind of want someone like
that, whereas a transformationalleader is really going to think
about mission and buy-in andcollaboration, democratic will
also be more collaborative inthat kind of way.
And so one of the things that Ilook at is that it's not just
right or wrong, but it's aboutwhat's right in that time.
So what are other sources ofinfluence?
(02:03):
When you think about it, youknow it could be expertise.
What's someone bringing to theposition?
What's their charisma?
You know a lot of leadership ishow can I engage, especially
like, say, for example, inhigher education, leadership is
really about fundraising, and sohow do I engage people to want
to donate, and charisma is a bigpiece of that Building trust.
(02:24):
Does that leader actually taketime to build trust?
Psychologically, people aremore likely to follow someone
that they believe is competent,relatable and acting in their
best interests.
And as I'm talking, you might bethinking about other things.
You know, I think in thecurrent world we're in, you
might be thinking about leadersin a political landscape, and
(02:46):
you know these principles wouldalso apply.
Now, that being said, there arevery little data to truly
analyze and understand, forexample, how countries operate.
You know, we can think aboutthis when it comes down to
companies, but the idea ofcountries are really unheard of.
(03:10):
Now, if there's a listener outthere that knows of something
else, please let me know.
But a lot of leaders might notinvite the public into
understanding their process, andcertainly not for an assessment
, and that's the thing aboutcorporate world.
That's much different, and it'scurious to me as a psychologist
, because people that hold thesehigh offices in the
socio-political climate are notrequired to have a psychological
(03:33):
evaluation, even though othertypes of professions might
require it, such as lawenforcement, clergy, and so I
would like to kind of make thepositioning here to say I do
believe that assessments arecritical.
You know, that's what helped,that's data, and it really helps
us, and so another piece aboutthis are group dynamics and
(03:54):
social identity.
So people are naturally drawnto groups, and leaders often
emerge or are selected becausethey represent the values or
identity of that group, andthat's, you know, in any it
could be a group of you knowthree or a group of millions.
A leader who understands thatshared identity of the team will
foster stronger cohesion,commitment and a sense of shared
(04:14):
purpose.
You see this in lots ofdifferent groups.
Perhaps you're watching, youknow some, you know Netflix or,
for example, there's lots ofdifferent shows on cults and
that's what we're thinking about.
You know, one person in thecult kind of emerges as the
leader People, and that's whatwe're thinking about.
One person in the cult kind ofemerges as the leader people
follow and it creates thatcommitment, this sort of shared
purpose, which can be used as aweapon in some ways.
(04:37):
The role of framing.
What does a leader do in termsof framing?
How a leader frames a situationdramatically impacts how people
perceive it.
So they are effective.
Leaders are skilled at framingissues in a way that resonates
with their audience andmotivates them to action.
So your leader, a leader, istrying to get people to act and
(04:58):
while that could feelmanipulative and there is always
a manipulative policy, aprinciple, if you will you know,
and I think manipulation gets anegative term, and obviously it
is a negative term and so but aleader, one of the things I'll
say often is that you sort ofneed to be a little sociopathic
to be a leader, and that's goingto be a little controversial
(05:18):
and what that means is I need tohave apathy.
So I'm throwing all thesepsychological terms at you.
Apathy is like a lack ofemotion, and a sociopath is a
person that responds and actswithout emotion.
So oftentimes, like theseserial killers that we've, you
know, watched on shows orwhatnot, those are probably
identified as such a sociopath.
So you know you sort of needthat because sometimes in life
(05:43):
when you're making these toughdecisions, you might not need
the emotion to kind of dictatethat.
So you know, again, that's likegoing to be somewhat
controversial, but it's a littlebit of balance.
I think you need a leader thathas a little bit of both.
A colleague of mine does a lotof work in emotional
intelligence around leadership.
That, to me, is probably one ofthe more effective leaders,
(06:03):
especially in the corporate andsports worlds.
So we're thinking aboutpsychology of decision-making
and communication.
So these are some points hereto make about cognitive biases
Every person has cognitivebiases.
These are confirmation bias,meaning you might keep people
around you that?
Confirm your answers.
(06:23):
They won't challenge you.
Anchoring bias, this is relyingtoo heavily on the first piece
of information you get, so kindof like bookending it, the first
thing you get is all you thinkabout and then group think that
suppresses dissenting opinions,and so these are things to be
aware of.
They exist in socialconditioning and so just being
aware kind of helps for betterdecision making, being more
(06:48):
rational, being more objective.
You want to seek diverseperspectives when it comes to
this and actively challenge it.
You don't want to just acceptwhat is right there.
I mentioned already emotionalintelligence, but also there is
a power of empathy.
So leaders with high emotionalintelligence, they will
understand to manage their ownemotions as well as respond to
(07:09):
their team's emotions top down,bottom up.
Communicating is not just abouttransmitting information.
It's about building connectionand inspiring.
So what is the messaging?
You know I want to have headsof communication that are
collaborative and kind.
You know, because we're sharinginformation.
We're not trying to becombative, you know, because
(07:31):
combative information, you know,combative communication, will
push people away.
So there are, you know.
Lastly, you want to haveeffective communication styles.
They need to be clear, conciseand authentic.
There are, you know.
Lastly, you want to haveeffective communication styles.
They need to be clear, conciseand authentic, and you know
authentic to a manner thataligns with the organization or
with the group that they areleading.
So there are ethics aroundleadership, there's a
responsibility, and so,ethically, you know where are
(07:55):
leaders' moral compasses.
So it's acting with integrity,transparency and a commitment to
the well-being of all thestakeholders.
And so this does requirecourage, right, because you
might have to go against thegrain, kind of challenge people
around their belief systems.
One thing I hear a lot when I'mworking with companies is we've
always done it this way and ofcourse, in a psychological
principle we say if you'vealways done something one way
(08:17):
that is the definition ofinsanity you want to be flexible
in thinking about other ways ofdoing it.
You need a term that's beingthrown out.
A lot is about we're sayingcultural humility, but really
just humility and self-awarenessaware, so they can have that
(08:38):
strong assertive nature, theycan be charismatic and you can
also be self-aware identifyingyour strengths and weaknesses.
If everything that they say isthis is the best, I'm the best,
you know, if that's constantlythe sort of verbiage that's used
, that will desensitize theaudience.
And so you want to have a bitof humility, even if you don't
feel it.
You know that's part of themanipulation piece, and so you
(08:59):
could be both authentic andskillful.
That's the way we think aboutit.
This is the middle path I keepbringing to you.
So if you're listening to thisbeing like Dr Pete keeps saying
things both ends of the coin,there's a truth to that, because
that's what we're trying to dois find the middle path.
And lastly, what is leadershiplike in this changing world?
It is changing, and rapidly.
Technology is certainly havinga dramatic impact on how people
(09:21):
lead.
We need leaders who areadaptable, resilient and able to
navigate complexities.
So this requires acollaboration, innovation and a
commitment to continuouslearning.
And so ask yourself, if you'rethe one that's leading, are you
open to learning?
Are you open to feedback fromyour team?
Ray Delio, you know, wrote,wrote about this in his
principles and says you know,you, you want that feedback.
(09:44):
You want your team, especiallyyour C-suite, your executive
team, to be able to give you thetough feedback.
Hey, you weren't on your gametoday.
You know you really missed thepoint today, or you know this is
something that we need to workon, you know.
So, look, leadership isdifficult, kind of like I say in
the world of sports, noteveryone's, you know, not every
(10:06):
great athlete becomes a coach,and so some of us and not every,
you know, and some of thegreatest coaches were not the
best athletes, if you thinkabout it in that way.
So you want to think about theidentity of the organization,
your leadership style, how toframe certain things where your
biases and self-awarenessacknowledge emotional
intelligence and empathy.
What is your communicationstyle?
And notice that the goal is tobe collaborative in
communication.
What's your ethical and moralcompass, how self-aware and
(10:27):
what's your humility around this, and are you adapting to the
change in the world?
These are the kind of conceptsof leadership as we think about
them today in the world ofbusiness.
So I thank you for tuning in.
If you have any questions,please email or comment on this.
We'd love to have some.
We'll have guests on that leadall different types of
organizations and so like shareand follow and all at official
(10:50):
Dr Pete, until then, spread alittle kindness and stay well,
thank you.
Hello and welcome to On Air with Dr Pete.
I'm your host, dr Pete Economo,and I am thrilled to be here
today to talk about leadership.
We are going to dive into thisfascinating world of leadership,
exploring the psychologicalprinciples that separate good
leaders from truly exceptionalones and then the not so great
ones.
And so you know, this issomething that we do as
(00:38):
psychologists, where we might bedoing some kind of executive
coaching or personnel assessmentin helping organizations
function at the best level, andcertainly that does impact how
people lead and the leadershipstyles.
So let's look at thisLeadership isn't just about
holding a title or position,it's about influence.
(00:59):
There's different types ofleaders.
You know there's democratictransformational types of
leaders.
There's democratictransformational and these are
people that are just trying toauthoritative.
These different leadershipstyles are not good or bad, and
so when I do a lot of this ineither the corporate world or in
the sports world, it's to saythat you want a little bit of
balance At certain points intime.
You want different kind ofleaders.
(01:21):
You might need an authoritativeleader from time to time, even
though that might be seennegatively, and this is a leader
who sort of dictatorship like,it's just very single lined top
down, do what I say, andsometimes not as I do.
And again, you know, in timesof high stress, in times of
really intense change, you kindof want someone like that,
(01:41):
whereas a transformationalleader is really going to think
about mission and buy in andcollaboration, democratic will
also be more collaborative inthat kind of want someone like
that, whereas a transformationalleader is really going to think
about mission and buy-in andcollaboration, democratic will
also be more collaborative inthat kind of way.
And so one of the things that Ilook at is that it's not just
right or wrong, but it's aboutwhat's right in that time.
So what are other sources ofinfluence?
(02:03):
When you think about it, youknow it could be expertise.
What's someone bringing to theposition?
What's their charisma?
You know a lot of leadership ishow can I engage, especially
like, say, for example, inhigher education, leadership is
really about fundraising, and sohow do I engage people to want
to donate, and charisma is a bigpiece of that Building trust.
(02:24):
Does that leader actually taketime to build trust?
Psychologically, people aremore likely to follow someone
that they believe is competent,relatable and acting in their
best interests.
And as I'm talking, you might bethinking about other things.
You know, I think in thecurrent world we're in, you
might be thinking about leadersin a political landscape, and
(02:46):
you know these principles wouldalso apply.
Now, that being said, there arevery little data to truly
analyze and understand, forexample, how countries operate.
You know, we can think aboutthis when it comes down to
companies, but the idea ofcountries are really unheard of.
(03:10):
Now, if there's a listener outthere that knows of something
else, please let me know.
But a lot of leaders might notinvite the public into
understanding their process, andcertainly not for an assessment
, and that's the thing aboutcorporate world.
That's much different, and it'scurious to me as a psychologist
, because people that hold thesehigh offices in the
socio-political climate are notrequired to have a psychological
(03:33):
evaluation, even though othertypes of professions might
require it, such as lawenforcement, clergy, and so I
would like to kind of make thepositioning here to say I do
believe that assessments arecritical.
You know, that's what helped,that's data, and it really helps
us, and so another piece aboutthis are group dynamics and
(03:54):
social identity.
So people are naturally drawnto groups, and leaders often
emerge or are selected becausethey represent the values or
identity of that group, andthat's, you know, in any it
could be a group of you knowthree or a group of millions.
A leader who understands thatshared identity of the team will
foster stronger cohesion,commitment and a sense of shared
(04:14):
purpose.
You see this in lots ofdifferent groups.
Perhaps you're watching, youknow some, you know Netflix or,
for example, there's lots ofdifferent shows on cults and
that's what we're thinking about.
You know, one person in thecult kind of emerges as the
leader People, and that's whatwe're thinking about.
One person in the cult kind ofemerges as the leader people
follow and it creates thatcommitment, this sort of shared
purpose, which can be used as aweapon in some ways.
(04:37):
The role of framing.
What does a leader do in termsof framing?
How a leader frames a situationdramatically impacts how people
perceive it.
So they are effective.
Leaders are skilled at framingissues in a way that resonates
with their audience andmotivates them to action.
So your leader, a leader, istrying to get people to act and
(04:58):
while that could feelmanipulative and there is always
a manipulative policy, aprinciple, if you will you know,
and I think manipulation gets anegative term, and obviously it
is a negative term and so but aleader, one of the things I'll
say often is that you sort ofneed to be a little sociopathic
to be a leader, and that's goingto be a little controversial
(05:18):
and what that means is I need tohave apathy.
So I'm throwing all thesepsychological terms at you.
Apathy is like a lack ofemotion, and a sociopath is a
person that responds and actswithout emotion.
So oftentimes, like theseserial killers that we've, you
know, watched on shows orwhatnot, those are probably
identified as such a sociopath.
So you know you sort of needthat because sometimes in life
(05:43):
when you're making these toughdecisions, you might not need
the emotion to kind of dictatethat.
So you know, again, that's likegoing to be somewhat
controversial, but it's a littlebit of balance.
I think you need a leader thathas a little bit of both.
A colleague of mine does a lotof work in emotional
intelligence around leadership.
That, to me, is probably one ofthe more effective leaders,
(06:03):
especially in the corporate andsports worlds.
So we're thinking aboutpsychology of decision-making
and communication.
So these are some points hereto make about cognitive biases
Every person has cognitivebiases.
These are confirmation bias,meaning you might keep people
around you that?
Confirm your answers.
(06:23):
They won't challenge you.
Anchoring bias, this is relyingtoo heavily on the first piece
of information you get, so kindof like bookending it, the first
thing you get is all you thinkabout and then group think that
suppresses dissenting opinions,and so these are things to be
aware of.
They exist in socialconditioning and so just being
aware kind of helps for betterdecision making, being more
(06:48):
rational, being more objective.
You want to seek diverseperspectives when it comes to
this and actively challenge it.
You don't want to just acceptwhat is right there.
I mentioned already emotionalintelligence, but also there is
a power of empathy.
So leaders with high emotionalintelligence, they will
understand to manage their ownemotions as well as respond to
(07:09):
their team's emotions top down,bottom up.
Communicating is not just abouttransmitting information.
It's about building connectionand inspiring.
So what is the messaging?
You know I want to have headsof communication that are
collaborative and kind.
You know, because we're sharinginformation.
We're not trying to becombative, you know, because
(07:31):
combative information, you know,combative communication, will
push people away.
So there are, you know.
Lastly, you want to haveeffective communication styles.
They need to be clear, conciseand authentic.
There are, you know.
Lastly, you want to haveeffective communication styles.
They need to be clear, conciseand authentic, and you know
authentic to a manner thataligns with the organization or
with the group that they areleading.
So there are ethics aroundleadership, there's a
responsibility, and so,ethically, you know where are
(07:55):
leaders' moral compasses.
So it's acting with integrity,transparency and a commitment to
the well-being of all thestakeholders.
And so this does requirecourage, right, because you
might have to go against thegrain, kind of challenge people
around their belief systems.
One thing I hear a lot when I'mworking with companies is we've
always done it this way and ofcourse, in a psychological
principle we say if you'vealways done something one way
(08:17):
that is the definition ofinsanity you want to be flexible
in thinking about other ways ofdoing it.
You need a term that's beingthrown out.
A lot is about we're sayingcultural humility, but really
just humility and self-awarenessaware, so they can have that
(08:38):
strong assertive nature, theycan be charismatic and you can
also be self-aware identifyingyour strengths and weaknesses.
If everything that they say isthis is the best, I'm the best,
you know, if that's constantlythe sort of verbiage that's used
, that will desensitize theaudience.
And so you want to have a bitof humility, even if you don't
feel it.
You know that's part of themanipulation piece, and so you
(08:59):
could be both authentic andskillful.
That's the way we think aboutit.
This is the middle path I keepbringing to you.
So if you're listening to thisbeing like Dr Pete keeps saying
things both ends of the coin,there's a truth to that, because
that's what we're trying to dois find the middle path.
And lastly, what is leadershiplike in this changing world?
It is changing, and rapidly.
Technology is certainly havinga dramatic impact on how people
(09:21):
lead.
We need leaders who areadaptable, resilient and able to
navigate complexities.
So this requires acollaboration, innovation and a
commitment to continuouslearning.
And so ask yourself, if you'rethe one that's leading, are you
open to learning?
Are you open to feedback fromyour team?
Ray Delio, you know, wrote,wrote about this in his
principles and says you know,you, you want that feedback.
(09:44):
You want your team, especiallyyour C-suite, your executive
team, to be able to give you thetough feedback.
Hey, you weren't on your gametoday.
You know you really missed thepoint today, or you know this is
something that we need to workon, you know.
So, look, leadership isdifficult, kind of like I say in
the world of sports, noteveryone's, you know, not every
(10:06):
great athlete becomes a coach,and so some of us and not every,
you know, and some of thegreatest coaches were not the
best athletes, if you thinkabout it in that way.
So you want to think about theidentity of the organization,
your leadership style, how toframe certain things where your
biases and self-awarenessacknowledge emotional
intelligence and empathy.
What is your communicationstyle?
And notice that the goal is tobe collaborative in
communication.
What's your ethical and moralcompass, how self-aware and
(10:27):
what's your humility around this, and are you adapting to the
change in the world?
These are the kind of conceptsof leadership as we think about
them today in the world ofbusiness.
So I thank you for tuning in.
If you have any questions,please email or comment on this.
We'd love to have some.
We'll have guests on that leadall different types of
organizations and so like shareand follow and all at official
(10:50):
Dr Pete, until then, spread alittle kindness and stay well,
thank you.
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