June 21, 2025 • 39 mins
In this energizing and eye-opening episode of On The Fly!, Donna Zaring is joined by two powerhouse leaders in the world of impact investing: Marcia Dawood, Vice Chair of the SEC’s Small Business Capital Formation Advisory Committee and author of Do Good While Doing Well, and Sue Bevan Baggott, executive advisor, innovation catalyst, and contributor to You Can, You Will.
Together, they break down what angel investing really means and why putting your dollars (and time!) into purpose-driven startups is one of the most meaningful ways to drive change.
From their work on the award-winning documentary Show Her the Money to supporting women founders and redefining who gets funded and why, Marcia and Sue are reshaping the investing landscape and proving that profit and purpose don’t have to be opposites, they can be partners.
Listen to hear more about:
- What angel investing is and why it matters for social entrepreneurs
- Why more women and everyday people should step into the investing space
- Real examples of startups disrupting systems in women’s health, mental health, and community finance
- The power of equity crowdfunding
- The story behind the award-winning documentary Show Her the Money and how storytelling is helping close the gender funding gap
Explore Marcia’s work at marciadawood.com, and learn more about Sue on LinkedIn.
At Flywheel Social Enterprise Hub, we believe in the power of social entrepreneurs and the angels who champion them. Whether you're ready to invest or just eager to learn, explore how Flywheel supports founders, educates investors, and fuels social impact at flywheelcincinnati.org.
On The Fly! is sponsored by First Financial Bank
Learn More at bankatfirst.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marcia Dawood (00:10):
There are plenty of angels out there that do make
a return, and you can, if youhave a diversified strategy, you
have a strategy, which is a bigthing that I talk about in my
book, do good while doing well,is if you have that and you know
that you're spreading your riskacross several companies and
you're also working with thecompanies and the people who are
(00:30):
helping the board, the advisers,you know, these are things that
can really help to grow acompany and get it to the
scalability and to the changethat we wanna see in the world.
Sue Bevan Baggott (00:41):
Angels are those early gatekeepers. So
without angels, there are somany innovations that, you know,
wouldn't even have a chance toget started. Fortunately, there
are angels who do, you know,give their time, talent, and
treasure to that. And what we'retrying to do is just encourage
more people to think about that.I mean, even if you're not going
to invest money, you know, thinkabout volunteering for something
(01:02):
like Flywheel because it's agreat way. They they need a lot
of help. They need a lot ofadvice, and it's a great way to
give back.
Joan Kaup (01:09):
Flywheel is a social enterprise hub. This means we
help social entrepreneurs buildand scale businesses that have
both a financial return andpositive social impact the
double bottom line. FlywheelSocial Enterprise Hub created
the Philanthropreneur ImpactInvesting Group to strategically
(01:32):
invest in start ups thatrepresent a brighter tomorrow.
Our philanthropreneur cohortembraces hands on learning about
impact investing, angelinvesting, and alternative
capital structures that buildthe confidence of impact
investors and provide muchneeded support for social
(01:54):
entrepreneurs. My name is JoanKaup. I'm the host of On the
Fly!
Today, our conversation is aboutthe value and importance of
angel investing to theindividual, the organization,
and the larger community. Theexecutive director of Flywheel
Social Enterprise Hub, DonnaZaring, is in conversation with
(02:16):
two talented, knowledgeablewomen about social impact and
angel investing, Marcia Dawoodand Sue Bevan Baggett.
Marcia is Vice Chair of theSEC's Small Business Capital
Formation Advisory Committee, aTEDx speaker, and author about
angel investing. Her book iscalled Do Good While Doing Well.
(02:41):
Sue is a human centeredexecutive advisor, innovation
catalyst, speaker, and author.Her book is called You Can, You
Will. Here's Donna with Sue andMarcia.
Donna Zaring (02:54):
Great to see you both. I think the last time we
were together was at StartupCincy Week when, Marsha, you
came to town to talk about yourbook, Do Good While Doing Well.
And, Sue, I believe you were apart of a a panel at Startup
Cincy Week talking about theimportance of social impact and
(03:17):
investing.
Sue Bevan Baggott (03:19):
Yeah. And, and then we were also featuring
the movie, Show Her The Moneythat Marsha and I are both
involved in. So it was lots ofstuff going on that week.
Donna Zaring (03:27):
That was an awesome week for Cincinnati for
sure, and, we were so glad thatyou could both could be a part
of it. We mentioned the wordstart up. Not everybody
listening might understand whata start up actually is. Let's
let's talk about that for aminute. When you say start up
company or organization, whatare you talking about?
Marcia Dawood (03:49):
Well, usually, start up is considered it's a
private company, for the mostpart, and it's a company that is
usually small. They're workingon something. However, there's a
scalability aspect to it. Sothere are a lot of small
businesses out there in The US.We hear about all different
types of businesses from yourdry cleaner, a bank, something
(04:09):
like that.
But a startup is something thatis usually involved with either
some type of technology, maybesomething around life sciences.
And there's a scalabilityfactor, meaning that the company
has the potential to actuallyget much larger. And if there
are investors that end upinvesting in a start up, there's
(04:31):
a potential for them to get anice financial return.
Donna Zaring (04:33):
And and then when we talk about social impact,
what does that what does thatmean, and how does that relate
to startups? Why are we talkingabout those two things together?
Sue Bevan Baggott (04:44):
Well, I think, you know, when people
hear the word social impact, itcan mean a lot of different
things to different people. Butone of the ways that, you know,
I've talked about it before isif you have a start up, and as
part of the mission or thepurpose of that start up, they
are trying to address asignificant social or
environmental challenge. That'spart of the problem that they're
(05:05):
trying to solve with the valuethat they're creating in their
company, then that's somethingthat could be considered a
social impact. You know, itcould be something like, you
know, job creation. It could besomething like, you know,
solving something to do withwastewater.
It could be something that's,you know, addressing one of the
17 UN global goals. There's alot of different ways, to look
(05:27):
at positive social andenvironmental impact.
Donna Zaring (05:29):
I think a lot of people listening might ask
themselves, well, isn't socialimpact mostly a function of
nonprofits? Isn't that whatnonprofits are here to solve?
What is it about social impactand how it relates to startups
that's special?
Sue Bevan Baggott (05:46):
I mean, I think, yeah, for a long time,
nonprofits have been involved insolving, you know, some of these
challenges. But, there has beena wave of, startups that have
started to address that as well.The traditional nonprofit
business models are quitechallenging. It relies on people
giving money to change. Whereasin a startup, you can bring
(06:09):
investors in to help tostimulate and accelerate growth.
In fact, Marcia and I were bothinvolved in a fund. It was
specifically set up to todemonstrate to it was called the
Next Wave Impact Fund. It wasspecifically set up to
demonstrate to people that youcan have, purpose driven and
high growth together in the samecompany and have that be a
(06:31):
successful return on investmentand return on impact.
Marcia Dawood (06:33):
Yeah. I kind of have a love hate relationship
with the word impact justbecause I do want to make
impactful change in the world.Sue and I both invest in a lot
of different types of companiesthat will that we hope will help
to bring change to the world.But in a lot of cases, when
people hear the word impact andthey especially if they hear the
word impact investing togetheror social impact investing, they
(06:56):
think, oh, well, that just meansthat you're, you know, you're
not really expecting a return.You don't really think that
something's gonna happen.
So but that is absolutely a 100%not true. And to Sue's point
about nonprofit business models,they're just we're putting the
burden on nonprofits tobasically solve all the world's
problems, and that's just notfair. They don't have the
(07:17):
funding. They don't have thestructure to be able to do that
all by themselves. Like, it's ait would be great if more for
profit companies, especiallystartups who are working on some
of these amazing technologies,were able to work more with the
nonprofits and kind of help takesome of that burden away.
Sue Bevan Baggott (07:33):
Well, you talk about the burden. Even if
you just look at the amount ofmoney that flows through
nonprofits, which in The US isonly about 1% of the value of
The US stock market. So how canwe put all the burden of change,
on those companies? We really doneed to be looking at for profit
companies to do their part.
Donna Zaring (07:52):
And tell us about your your book, Marcia, do good
while doing well. Is this atopic that that you cover in
that book?
Marcia Dawood (07:58):
Yes. I cover that quite a bit. You know, Sue and I
have talked to a lot of people.Once they learn about what angel
investing is, there's plenty ofbooks and resources out there,
especially through the AngelCapital Association to be able
to teach them or train them onhow to be a good angel, you
know, how to do diligence, howto pick a company, what are you
look what are you looking forand all that type of thing. But
(08:20):
I didn't really couldn't findanything out there that was able
to demystify what is this.
Like, I would talk to people andthey would say angel investing.
I don't I don't even know whatthat means. Like, what what is
that exactly? And how do you doit? And who has to do it?
And I thought it was just forrich people. Do I have to have a
finance degree? There were somany questions. And I thought,
(08:40):
wait a minute. Let's try todemystify all of that before we
actually get into, well, how doyou pick a company?
How would they even know thatthey wanted to pick a company to
invest in if they don't evenunderstand the mechanics of
angel investing in general?
Sue Bevan Baggott (08:53):
I joke with Marcia because she actually got
into angel investing before Idid. She's one of my angel
mentors. But I choke that up.I'm an accidental angel
investor. I if you had asked meyears ago I mean, I have an
innovation background.
I thought a lot of theinnovations were happening in
large companies. If you wouldask me ten years ago that I was
gonna, you know, kind of get onthe field as an angel investor,
I would have laughed at you. Andit wasn't until, I started
(09:16):
understanding, you know, howmuch innovation was happening,
in the entrepreneurialecosystem, how that impacted,
you know, the communitiesgrowing, thriving, etcetera,
and, how angels really have thefirst vote on which innovations
get to go forward, you know,that that was, you know, part of
the motivation to to learn more.That and the fact that, you
(09:39):
know, I found out that womenwere only getting 2% of venture
capital. And I was just shockedand said there is just, you
know, no way 50% of ourpopulation has only 2% of the
good business ideas worthfunding, and that, is how I
ended up getting connected into,you know, learning about angel
investing.
Marcia Dawood (09:58):
Yes. And nowadays, people can invest for
as little as a $100, $200through equity crowdfunding
sites. So some people might haveheard of Kickstarter, Indiegogo,
which is a rewards basedcrowdfunding where there's no
exchange of ownership, or maybeeven like GoFundMe, which is a
donation based crowdfunding.People pool their money together
(10:19):
in order to help a cause. Butwith equity crowdfunding, you
are actually getting a smallpercentage of ownership of the
company.
And the crowd, in a lot of thesecases, can help them to market
the product or the company orhelp them to to grow and expand.
So this is something that isn'ttalked about very much because
it's only been allowed since2016 when the Securities and
(10:42):
Exchange Commission allowed forequity crowdfunding platforms to
to do this type of thing. And Ithink, you know, if we can get
more people in at least to kindof get started, learn about it,
it's a very easy way for peopleto learn without really having
to put out any money. I mean,they these public their public
platforms, the three that havethe biggest market share right
(11:03):
now are Wefunder, StartEngine,and Republic. And people could
just go on to those sites andperuse and kind of look around
and just see what it is thatactually makes up a startup
because each one of theseplatforms, when there is a a
company on their fundraising,they have to have a certain
amount of disclosures and andtalk about, you know, the
(11:24):
different aspects of a company.
It and I think a lot of timeswhen people go and they see the
videos and they look at what thecompanies are working on, they
think, oh, I had no idea thatthis is like how a company is
structured, how they actuallyask for investment. And I think
you can actually learn a lotjust from kinda looking around.
Donna Zaring (11:42):
You know, I think a lot of people may be asking
themselves, how can a how can acompany or a start up that's
focused on social impact makeany money? How is this something
that would be good to invest in?What would you say to someone
who might have a question likethat?
Sue Bevan Baggott (12:01):
Having a significant purpose is a real
advantage for a start up whenit's very clear what their
mission is and what they'retrying to accomplish. And,
really, what is a company doing?A company is looking to create
value, and there is a lot ofvalue in some of these, you
know, purpose driven companies.There's a company called Solo
Funds, and they set out to,disrupt payday lending. And for
(12:23):
those who don't, payday lendingis something that is, you know,
a lot of people live paycheck topaycheck, and they have
challenges that come up.
And sometimes even as much as acouple $100 could put a person
in a position where they havenowhere else to go for a loan to
a payday loan. But that causes aa a spiral of people in terms of
(12:43):
debt. And so solo funds, youknow, decided, you know, there
are gotta be a better way. Whatif there were a community
lending platform so the humanscould help other humans once
they understood what the needswere and, you know, set the
payback rules and all of that?So community lending to replace
payday lending is an excellentexample of, you know, value
(13:04):
value creation on both sides.
And when you have a for profitbusiness, it's a self sustaining
business model. Right? It'sgoing to be able to be around
for a lot longer. Sometimes theyneed extra help with the start
for, you know, this whole startup, right, at the start. But
once it gets going, the businessmodel can keep going.
So you can really magnify, theimpact over time. Whereas, you
(13:28):
know, a lot of nonprofits arehaving to go out for money on a
consist basis and just keepasking people to give to them.
So I think it's a reallypowerful model.
Donna Zaring (13:37):
Yeah. Me too. I I always you know, just coming up
through innovation, working withdifferent companies on building
new products and trying to findnew markets for products
throughout my career. You know,the first rule is always find
the unmet need. Right?
Find the under met or unmetneed. And when you look at some
(13:58):
of the challenges that we havein our community, these are big,
big issues and big needs. And ifwe can innovate to try to find a
better way to tackle some ofthese things, that's that's a
huge unmet need that that you'resolving and plenty of market
potential.
Sue Bevan Baggott (14:15):
Yeah. Well and some people don't even
realize. Like, I grew up my, mybackground is in global
innovation at Procter andGamble, and Procter and Gamble
has always been a purpose drivencompany. They have a very
specific statement of purposerelated to improving the lives
of the world's consumers. And,you know, improving people's
everyday lives was part of mymotivation, why I enjoyed doing
innovation in that where and,you know, it is also a, long
(14:39):
time, you know, high growthpublic company that is making a
profit as well as having apurpose.
So I really don't see why theycan't coexist.
Donna Zaring (14:48):
You know, the term social impact actually was first
used in a Yale Universityseminar in 1969 on their ethical
responsibilities ofinstitutional investors. I
thought that was reallyinteresting that the the term
social impact has been aroundfor that long. When were you
(15:08):
first aware of social impact,and and why did you become
interested in it?
Sue Bevan Baggott (15:13):
Well, you know, the actually, it was a
Cincinnati based company thatmade me first aware of social
impact, an organization calledNehemiah Manufacturing, which
was founded by Dan Meyer. And Ihad been doing some innovation
work at Procter and Gamble. Oneof the products that I innovated
was a little too small for P andG, and Meeamiia Manufacturing
actually took over this productas part of what they were doing.
(15:36):
And their social impact wasaround hiring, second chance
citizens. So they were doingbranded consumer products, you
know, creating them.
It was a for profit company, butat the same time, they were
giving, you know, people whohave had challenged backgrounds
an opportunity to work there andprogress. So it was my
interaction with with Nehemiahthat was one of my first
(15:57):
exposures to a purpose drivenfor profit company that could do
both.
Marcia Dawood (16:02):
You know, early on after I first learned what
angel investing was and was sofascinated that there were
entrepreneurs working on suchcool innovative things right in
my own backyard. I was living inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania at the
time, not too far fromCincinnati. And I was just
completely fascinated thinking,wow, there's so much innovation
happening all over the world inevery city and every town. But
(16:24):
then I started to realize, waita minute, like, so little
funding is going to women, asSue mentioned, and, you know,
how how is this how do we changethis, and what does this all
mean? And so as I got to be moreinvolved with that and learn
about, you know, where thefunding was actually going and
what types of things wereactually being funded, I
thought, wait a minute.
We we have a problem here. Youknow, there's a lot of money
(16:46):
going into health care, but howmuch of it is actually going
into women's health care? Sowe've got a huge discrepancy
there. So then, like, again,with the word impact, is it
really impact investing toinvest in a women's health care
company because it's women'shealth care as opposed to men's
(17:07):
health care? Well, that doesn'tmake any sense.
So, you know, all of thosethings is really why the Next
Wave Impact Fund was puttogether, as Sue mentioned,
because we were trying to provelike, hey. Wait a minute. We can
actually show that there is,there are returns to be had even
though we are working on all thethings trying to make the world
(17:28):
a better place.
Donna Zaring (17:29):
You both are angel investors. Is angel investing
the first round of money forthese startups? Have they had to
use other tools to get started?What are some of the things that
you hear from the startupfounders?
Marcia Dawood (17:44):
I would say that, you know, angels are early. I
don't know that they're alwaysthe first money in nor should
they be. In a lot of cases, youknow, it's a very tough
balancing act at the verybeginning to figure out like how
much funding are you going totake, when are you going to take
funding, from who, how much, allof these things. Because in a
(18:05):
lot of cases, as entrepreneursare building their companies,
they are really wanting tobootstrap and try to get at
least a minimum viable productto show to investors before they
would actually have, you know,ask for an investment. And Sue
and I actually co wrote anarticle about how one of the
(18:26):
very important things that Ithink entrepreneurs miss is this
building of relationships beforethey actually need to ask for
money.
Sometimes entrepreneurs will belike, no. No. I don't want to
show you what I'm working on yetbecause, you know, it's like
it's so private and I don't wantyou to see it until it's
perfect. And really that's notthe right way to think about it.
We want to know what you'reworking on, how you're building
(18:48):
it, how you're thinking aboutit, build a relationship, you
know, Sue and I are both a partof MindShift Capital.
We invested in a company where Iknew the founder for six years
before we actually made aninvestment. So there are a lot
of things that can really help acompany at the very beginning to
make sure that they'refundraising properly. Just
(19:09):
because somebody needs the moneydoesn't necessarily mean that
they should just run out and tryto get investors because that's
where I usually see companiesfail. They really need to be
thoughtful about where they'restarting, how they're starting,
and that's why Sue and I bothare huge fans of crowdfunding.
And, you know, I explainedequity crowdfunding before, but
sometimes rewards basedcrowdfunding is just as good, if
(19:32):
not better, because you don'thave to give any away any equity
in order to do that.
So that's another place thatpeople can start.
Sue Bevan Baggott (19:39):
There also are sometimes opportunities, for
founders to get access to earlycapital through through grants,
and that is a great way tostart, particularly if you're
working in an area of positivesocial environmental impact.
There might be grants available.We're very fortunate actually at
Cincinnati to have Main StreetVentures, which is providing
(20:01):
grants that help kick start,entrepreneurs. So that's a great
place to look. And, you know,you know, that that would be the
one thing, you know, one Iwould, you know, add on to what
Marsha is saying.
And just to be clear, like, youknow, building those
relationships early, you know,they need to be thinking about
all the different relationshipsthey're gonna need. They need to
(20:21):
think about their investorrelationships, but there's also
a lot of people out there thatare willing to help start ups if
they take the time to interact.Now, of course, they should have
their legal representation andmake sure they're, you know,
that they have their,intellectual property plans in
place before they go out and doa lot of broad scale sharing
sharing. But that sharing, thatinteraction will really help
(20:42):
them hone their ideas. I mean,all the best innovation, it
requires iteration andexperimentation.
And if you're not sharing yourideas with other people, you
could be going down the wrongpath. Right? You need to be
sharing, sharing those ideas andunderstanding. Are you building
value? How are you buildingvalue?
Do you have that right, asMarsha said, early market
product fit? And then, you thinkabout where do I get the
(21:05):
investment that I need topotentially scale it.
Donna Zaring (21:07):
And and that's really where organizations like
Flywheel come in and for us inparticular focusing on social
impact. That's where we bring ina broad network of coaches,
subject matter experts, likeyourselves. And, Sue, I know
you've been a coach for many ofour startup founders throughout
the years. But, yeah, we webelieve anyone who's interested
(21:31):
in changing the world andwilling to invest their time,
money, and expertise isconsidered an angel. And
sometimes, you know, as we workthrough through the eight weeks
that we coach startups who areworking in the social impact
space, we see that they're verygood with the the idea and they
(21:51):
know what problem they wannasolve, but they're not always
savvy on the aspects of runninga business.
And other times, it may be theother way. They may be very tech
savvy, but aren't really aren'treally able to focus on what it
is they're trying to solve. Butit's thanks to angels like
yourself, we get the guidancethat they need to get their
(22:12):
concept to the right place wherethey can then start thinking
about funding. What are some ofthe things you tend to see with
with startup founders as they'restarting out besides how to ask
for money? What are some of thebiggest challenges that you see
when you're coaching?
Sue Bevan Baggott (22:29):
Well, I think you you hit on one that I see
frequently, which is, sometimesyou'll get highly technical
founders who, are, you know,really good at solving the
technical side of the problem,but maybe not as good at solving
the human side. And quitehonestly, the human side is
often the more challenging one.And so, you know, so I do see
that happening, quite a bit.And, you know, you need you need
(22:50):
those kinds of skills. Right?
You need the human skills aswell as the technical skills to
have these scalable, solutions.So I definitely see that. And,
and then I know what you saidinitially too that we often see
that the founders, understandthe problem that they wanna
solve, but they may not have allof that full range of of of
business skills. So really,encourage them to look for
(23:13):
places like Flywheel where theycan get that sort of help and
advice and guidance.
Marcia Dawood (23:18):
I'd also add that, you know, sometimes
entrepreneurs, they are solvinga big problem, but they can't
articulate exactly what thatproblem is in a timely manner.
What I mean by that is sometimesas they're going through their
pitch deck or they're talkinginvestors, they're very, very
focused on what their solutionis, whatever they've built their
(23:40):
baby, which is great, exceptthat if they're not solving a
really big problem, thenbasically they just have a
solution that's in search of aproblem. And if it's not really
that sticky and we're not goingto change our behavior in order
to use it, then it might notactually scale and grow and be
something that is marketable. SoI always encourage entrepreneurs
(24:03):
from the very beginning to bevery, very, very clear on
exactly the problem that they'resolving and how big this problem
really is.
Donna Zaring (24:10):
Yeah. Regardless of whether or not they're in
social impact. Right? That'sjust that that's true for any
kind of business.
Marcia Dawood (24:16):
Exactly. Yeah.
Sue Bevan Baggott (24:18):
And then, you know, Marsha, you reminded me
too. The other thing in terms ofscalability, it's gotta be a big
and important problem, you know,that people are anxious to find
a solution for. And then you youalso need the sales and
marketing skills to do that.And, initially, it's the
entrepreneur that is all ofthose things. You know?
They're the number onefundraiser. They're the number
one marketing person. They'rethe number one sales I mean, so
(24:40):
they really do need a broadrange of they need to develop a
broad range of skills. Theymight not be the expert in all
those eventually when they getto the point, but early on, they
need advice in all those areas,and they need to be able to
bring that together to build asustainable business.
Donna Zaring (24:54):
Think it's just an important time to be having a
conversation about women andinvesting and what that means.
Tell us a little bit more aboutwhat you are seeking to
accomplish with Show Her TheMoney.
Marcia Dawood (25:07):
The film, it's a documentary, Show Her The Money.
It's basically showing severalfund managers and then the
companies invested in and what'shappened to them over a period
of time. And really what thefilm is meant to do because
television and and movies tendto get people's attention and
build awareness. And really,that's the heart of the
(25:29):
documentary. And Catherine Gray,who is the producer and the
brains behind the movie, she'sreally the one who not only came
up with the idea, but she alsohas done so many other things in
order to promote it and get morepeople involved in it.
And I met her because someonesaw her TEDx talk and saw mine
(25:50):
and said, do you know you guysare talking about the exact same
thing? You should know eachother. And so from there, we
ended up having a conversationand she said, hey. You know, I'm
putting out this documentary.It's almost done, but I still
need a couple of investors.
Would you be interested ininvesting? And I thought, well,
that's kind of interesting. Andso I went to Sue and said, hey.
(26:10):
What do you think about this?And we looked it over, thought
it over, and then, of course,pretty quickly, we're like, hey.
Yeah. This is, like, totally inline with what we care about.
Sue Bevan Baggott (26:19):
Yeah. Because we're talking about things that
skills and backgrounds that, youknow, you need. And Marcia and I
really wanted to drive change.We wanted to drive more people
onto the field for angelinvesting, support more of
these, you know, amazingentrepreneurs. And, you know,
here and media is not in eitherof our backgrounds.
And here was an opportunity toto do that collaboratively. It's
been amazing to see how wellreceived the film has been. It's
(26:40):
won multiple awards. And andnow, we were doing live
screenings all throughout, 2024.And now throughout 2025, there
will be, a lot a lot moreopportunities for virtual
screenings as well.
So it's exciting to see it. Themomentum building, Catherine
calls it the movie mint, themomentum building, and people,
and and it's really and it'sactually just a fundamentally
(27:03):
fun movie to watch because thestorytelling is is really good.
The Kai Dickens, who's thedirector, did a fabulous job of
bringing all these storiestogether.
Donna Zaring (27:11):
Angel investing. It's oftentimes one of the first
investments for a startupfounder for a company. Why is
angel funding so important?
Marcia Dawood (27:23):
So I go over a lot of this in my book about why
people would become angelinvestors. And there's several
reasons. In fact, I started apodcast called the angel next
door back in 2021. Ithighlighting people and asking
them these very questions. Whydo you do this?
Why would you put your after taxdollars to work in something
(27:44):
that is relatively risky? Youknow, we lose probably on
average about 50% of the moneythat we put in. If out of 10
companies, five of them willprobably completely go under,
maybe two or three will returnmoney, and then the other one or
two you're hoping will be bigwins and kind of cover all the
(28:05):
rest of those losses. So, youknow, this is something that you
really want to think aboutbefore you would put in some of
your money knowing that there'sa possibility that you might
lose it. But at the same time,to Sue's point from earlier, we
really care about innovation.
We care about the things wherewe wanna see change. And what if
there weren't angel investors?Because those bigger VC guys,
(28:30):
90% of their investments thatthey get to invest in down the
road when they are a little bitmore established only happen
because angel investors came inearly. And in a lot of these
cases, we're talking about beingable to help these entrepreneurs
to grow and scale theircompanies. And, you know, Sue is
a perfect example because she'san incredible mentor and a great
(28:52):
coach to a lot of startupcompanies.
So not only is she investingwith her dollars, but she's
investing with her time. And somany angels do that. At the
Angel Capital Association, wehave about 16,000 members, and
we've estimated that there'sabout a million hours of
volunteered to startups over thecourse of every year from
(29:15):
angels. So imagine if we didn'thave this. So we're always
trying to encourage people to,you know, put their money and
their time into the things thatthey care about.
And we're not talking about yourentire life savings. Certainly,
please don't use your kid'scollege education money when
they're like 15 years old. Don'tdo that. But at the same time,
(29:36):
you know, at the Angel CapitalAssociation, we say probably of
your investable assets, maybe 7%is something that you would put
into a riskier asset class likethis. But keep in mind that
there are plenty of angels outthere that do make a return, and
you can, if you have adiversified strategy, you have a
strategy, which is a big thingthat I talk about in my book, do
(29:57):
good while doing well, is if youhave that and you know that
you're spreading your riskacross several companies and
you're also working with thecompanies and the people who are
helping the board, the advisors,you know, these are things that
can really help to grow acompany and get it to the
scalability and to the changethat we wanna see in the world.
Sue Bevan Baggott (30:19):
Yeah. And, just to, you know, build on what
Marsha said, I mean, we angelsare those early gatekeepers. So
without angels, there are somany innovations that, you know,
wouldn't even have a chance toget started. And, you know,
fortunately, there are angelswho do, you know, give their
time, talent, and treasure tothat. And what we're trying to
(30:40):
do is just encourage more peopleto think about that.
I mean, even if you're not goingto invest money, you know, think
about, volunteering forsomething like Flywheel, because
it's a great way. They they needa lot of help. They need a lot
of advice, and it's a a greatway to give back. It's very
rewarding. It is very rewardingto see these entrepreneurs get
(31:00):
empowered, see them growingtheir businesses.
It's, it's an exciting thing.And then the other thing I would
mention is, yes, you can useyour investable dollars with
money from your self directedIRA, and you can use money from
a self directed donor advisedfund. So you can actually use
philanthropic dollars. And sothen even if you're not getting
(31:22):
the return on impact, but youcan make your philanthropic
dollars go farther. Because ifyour investment does get a
return, then you can keep oninvesting in in new innovations.
So I think there's just a lot ofaspects of angel investing that
people just don't know about,but there's a major, opportunity
for a ripple effect when you doparticipate.
Donna Zaring (31:41):
That's so true. And and even for those who just
want to make a social impact andget a a return on investment in
terms of social capital, thereare ways to use donor advised
funds to support work andthrough for example, Flywheel
offers the philanthrepreneurprogram. So most of our
(32:01):
contributors are from donoradvised funds who wanna take
those dollars that they wouldotherwise give to, you know,
other charities. They investthat with Flywheel for us to be
able to provide some support forstartups as they're just getting
started before they're ready forangel capital. So there's a lot
(32:24):
of different ways you can putyour dollars to work.
Sue Bevan Baggott (32:26):
And it's a great way. It's a great way to
do it. It's a great way to seedinnovation that's important in
creating the changes you wannasee in the world.
Donna Zaring (32:33):
You know, we say be the change you wanna see. I
love that. I just love thatphrase because it says so much
about our ability to not justsee things that need to happen
in the world, but do littlethings to make a difference.
What are some examples of any ofcompanies just doing things to
(32:54):
create social impact that reallyinspire you?
Marcia Dawood (32:59):
Well, we talk a lot about women's health care
because that's something that isextremely underfunded. For many,
many years, they looked at womenas little men. And if you can
believe it, it wasn't untilrecently, maybe like a decade
ago, that they actually startedputting like making sure that
(33:19):
there were women involved inclinical trials. In a lot of
cases, they would have aclinical trial on some kind of a
drug or treatment or somethinglike that, and there were no
women involved in it. So like mybest example would be like,
okay, aspirin.
If you have a bottle of aspirinand I look at the back of it and
see what the dosage is for meand I see what the dosage is for
(33:40):
my husband, is it different? No.It's not different. But we're
very different. We're verydifferent size.
We're very different weight, youknow. So it's not that's a, you
know, kind of a a basic example.But I mean, that's happening if
you think about it across a lotof health care. So if we can see
companies, and Sue and I see alot of them, that are working
(34:02):
specifically on solvinghealthcare need for women, like
we're all about it. In fact, onecompany that we're extremely
excited about called JoyLux isworking not just on pelvic floor
issues and a lot of things thatwomen experience after
childbirth and even duringmenopause, but they're working
on a platform community waysthat women can talk to each
(34:24):
other and actually learn abouthow they can overcome a lot of
these challenges where beforethese were kind of taboo topics.
Nobody really talked about me.I'd ask your mom and maybe your
mom wouldn't even wanna tell youabout it. So, you know, now
we're getting into a lot morewhere we are seeing there's more
being talked about it. It's notso taboo and we can really start
(34:44):
to make a difference in women'slives.
Sue Bevan Baggott (34:49):
I build on that with, there's another
company that's part of our NextWave Impact Fund called Motivo.
And basically, what they'redoing is improving access to
mental health care, which, youknow, even before the pandemic,
it was an issue. And now it's somuch more of a widespread issue.
But in order to be qualified toprovide mental health care,
people need to haveobservational hours and things
(35:09):
like that. So this is a privateplatform that allows for many
more, mental healthprofessionals to be trained more
efficiently, more effectively.
And, you know, that's somethingthat benefits benefits everyone,
when you can increase access anddo that in a in a scalable way.
Donna Zaring (35:28):
Awesome. So making the world better and just doing
business better. It soundssounds like a good concept for a
book. So what any last thoughtsas we get ready to wrap up and
and, you know, you amazing womencontinue to go out into the
world and make investments andchange. What what's what's your
(35:53):
final last word of advice to ouraudience who's thinking about
how they can change the worldwith their investment and time
and treasure?
Marcia Dawood (36:03):
Well, I think it's just something people need
to do. Don't wait. Don'thesitate. We see a lot of people
who are like, oh, this is reallya great idea. I would really
like to do this.
But then, you know, lifehappens. They don't get
involved. They're not reallysure where to go. And, you know,
especially in the Cincinnatiarea, there's lots and lots of
(36:27):
things happening, but wouldpeople actually think that
Cincinnati is like a start uphub? But there is so much
happening there in Pittsburgh,in all of these places, in every
city, in every town.
So all you need to do is just doa an online search of
entrepreneurship in my area orstartup events or, you know, the
(36:47):
most simple thing, angelinvestors in and then put in
your town. And you can find somany things that are happening
and actually meet some reallyfun and cool people. Soon, I
would have never met if itweren't for angel investing. So
that's also a big perk.
Sue Bevan Baggott (37:01):
Yeah. I know. I was thoroughly enjoyed meeting
Marcia and all the other angelinvestors. You know, everybody
who's involved is really allabout helping more startups
succeed, which is exciting. And,you know, I would say the same
thing that Marcia did is it's,you know, don't wait.
Get out there and see what'shappening, and you can really
get excited about innovation.And it could be all the things
(37:22):
she said. It could also be anaccelerator that's in your area,
and, it could also be theuniversity that's in your area.
A lot of university programsare, you know, bringing together
entrepreneurship programs. And,you know, once you get a taste
of it and you see the excitingthings that these entrepreneurs
are coming up with, that'llthat'll get you involved.
Donna Zaring (37:42):
And where can our listeners learn more about you?
How can they learn more aboutthe work that you're doing?
Marcia Dawood (37:48):
Well, I have a website. It's simply my name,
Marcia, m a r c I a, Dawood, d aw o o d dot com. Everything's
there.
Sue Bevan Baggott (37:56):
And the best way to to find me is on,
LinkedIn. And I think Marshawould say the same. Anybody who
wants more information about DoGood While Doing Well, about
angel investing, about all thedifferent pathways that you can
use, general advice funds, youknow, IRAs, etcetera, we'd be
more than happy to connect withfolks and help them find their
(38:17):
path to being a change angel.Fantastic.
Donna Zaring (38:22):
Thank you both so much for all the work that
you're doing to createopportunities for more people in
our in our world and for being aguest on our podcast, On the
Fly! It's great to hear from youboth, and, I look forward to
seeing you very soon.
Marcia Dawood (38:40):
Thanks for having me.
Sue Bevan Baggott (38:40):
Thanks so much.
Joan Kaup (38:43):
On the Fly! is produced by Joey Scarillo with
music composed by Ben Hammer,recorded at eighteen nineteen
Innovation Hub in Cincinnati,Ohio, courtesy of the University
of Cincinnati.
There are plenty of angels out there that do make
a return, and you can, if youhave a diversified strategy, you
have a strategy, which is a bigthing that I talk about in my
book, do good while doing well,is if you have that and you know
that you're spreading your riskacross several companies and
you're also working with thecompanies and the people who are
(00:30):
helping the board, the advisers,you know, these are things that
can really help to grow acompany and get it to the
scalability and to the changethat we wanna see in the world.
Sue Bevan Baggott (00:41):
Angels are those early gatekeepers. So
without angels, there are somany innovations that, you know,
wouldn't even have a chance toget started. Fortunately, there
are angels who do, you know,give their time, talent, and
treasure to that. And what we'retrying to do is just encourage
more people to think about that.I mean, even if you're not going
to invest money, you know, thinkabout volunteering for something
(01:02):
like Flywheel because it's agreat way. They they need a lot
of help. They need a lot ofadvice, and it's a great way to
give back.
Joan Kaup (01:09):
Flywheel is a social enterprise hub. This means we
help social entrepreneurs buildand scale businesses that have
both a financial return andpositive social impact the
double bottom line. FlywheelSocial Enterprise Hub created
the Philanthropreneur ImpactInvesting Group to strategically
(01:32):
invest in start ups thatrepresent a brighter tomorrow.
Our philanthropreneur cohortembraces hands on learning about
impact investing, angelinvesting, and alternative
capital structures that buildthe confidence of impact
investors and provide muchneeded support for social
(01:54):
entrepreneurs. My name is JoanKaup. I'm the host of On the
Fly!
Today, our conversation is aboutthe value and importance of
angel investing to theindividual, the organization,
and the larger community. Theexecutive director of Flywheel
Social Enterprise Hub, DonnaZaring, is in conversation with
(02:16):
two talented, knowledgeablewomen about social impact and
angel investing, Marcia Dawoodand Sue Bevan Baggett.
Marcia is Vice Chair of theSEC's Small Business Capital
Formation Advisory Committee, aTEDx speaker, and author about
angel investing. Her book iscalled Do Good While Doing Well.
(02:41):
Sue is a human centeredexecutive advisor, innovation
catalyst, speaker, and author.Her book is called You Can, You
Will. Here's Donna with Sue andMarcia.
Donna Zaring (02:54):
Great to see you both. I think the last time we
were together was at StartupCincy Week when, Marsha, you
came to town to talk about yourbook, Do Good While Doing Well.
And, Sue, I believe you were apart of a a panel at Startup
Cincy Week talking about theimportance of social impact and
(03:17):
investing.
Sue Bevan Baggott (03:19):
Yeah. And, and then we were also featuring
the movie, Show Her The Moneythat Marsha and I are both
involved in. So it was lots ofstuff going on that week.
Donna Zaring (03:27):
That was an awesome week for Cincinnati for
sure, and, we were so glad thatyou could both could be a part
of it. We mentioned the wordstart up. Not everybody
listening might understand whata start up actually is. Let's
let's talk about that for aminute. When you say start up
company or organization, whatare you talking about?
Marcia Dawood (03:49):
Well, usually, start up is considered it's a
private company, for the mostpart, and it's a company that is
usually small. They're workingon something. However, there's a
scalability aspect to it. Sothere are a lot of small
businesses out there in The US.We hear about all different
types of businesses from yourdry cleaner, a bank, something
(04:09):
like that.
But a startup is something thatis usually involved with either
some type of technology, maybesomething around life sciences.
And there's a scalabilityfactor, meaning that the company
has the potential to actuallyget much larger. And if there
are investors that end upinvesting in a start up, there's
(04:31):
a potential for them to get anice financial return.
Donna Zaring (04:33):
And and then when we talk about social impact,
what does that what does thatmean, and how does that relate
to startups? Why are we talkingabout those two things together?
Sue Bevan Baggott (04:44):
Well, I think, you know, when people
hear the word social impact, itcan mean a lot of different
things to different people. Butone of the ways that, you know,
I've talked about it before isif you have a start up, and as
part of the mission or thepurpose of that start up, they
are trying to address asignificant social or
environmental challenge. That'spart of the problem that they're
(05:05):
trying to solve with the valuethat they're creating in their
company, then that's somethingthat could be considered a
social impact. You know, itcould be something like, you
know, job creation. It could besomething like, you know,
solving something to do withwastewater.
It could be something that's,you know, addressing one of the
17 UN global goals. There's alot of different ways, to look
(05:27):
at positive social andenvironmental impact.
Donna Zaring (05:29):
I think a lot of people listening might ask
themselves, well, isn't socialimpact mostly a function of
nonprofits? Isn't that whatnonprofits are here to solve?
What is it about social impactand how it relates to startups
that's special?
Sue Bevan Baggott (05:46):
I mean, I think, yeah, for a long time,
nonprofits have been involved insolving, you know, some of these
challenges. But, there has beena wave of, startups that have
started to address that as well.The traditional nonprofit
business models are quitechallenging. It relies on people
giving money to change. Whereasin a startup, you can bring
(06:09):
investors in to help tostimulate and accelerate growth.
In fact, Marcia and I were bothinvolved in a fund. It was
specifically set up to todemonstrate to it was called the
Next Wave Impact Fund. It wasspecifically set up to
demonstrate to people that youcan have, purpose driven and
high growth together in the samecompany and have that be a
(06:31):
successful return on investmentand return on impact.
Marcia Dawood (06:33):
Yeah. I kind of have a love hate relationship
with the word impact justbecause I do want to make
impactful change in the world.Sue and I both invest in a lot
of different types of companiesthat will that we hope will help
to bring change to the world.But in a lot of cases, when
people hear the word impact andthey especially if they hear the
word impact investing togetheror social impact investing, they
(06:56):
think, oh, well, that just meansthat you're, you know, you're
not really expecting a return.You don't really think that
something's gonna happen.
So but that is absolutely a 100%not true. And to Sue's point
about nonprofit business models,they're just we're putting the
burden on nonprofits tobasically solve all the world's
problems, and that's just notfair. They don't have the
(07:17):
funding. They don't have thestructure to be able to do that
all by themselves. Like, it's ait would be great if more for
profit companies, especiallystartups who are working on some
of these amazing technologies,were able to work more with the
nonprofits and kind of help takesome of that burden away.
Sue Bevan Baggott (07:33):
Well, you talk about the burden. Even if
you just look at the amount ofmoney that flows through
nonprofits, which in The US isonly about 1% of the value of
The US stock market. So how canwe put all the burden of change,
on those companies? We really doneed to be looking at for profit
companies to do their part.
Donna Zaring (07:52):
And tell us about your your book, Marcia, do good
while doing well. Is this atopic that that you cover in
that book?
Marcia Dawood (07:58):
Yes. I cover that quite a bit. You know, Sue and I
have talked to a lot of people.Once they learn about what angel
investing is, there's plenty ofbooks and resources out there,
especially through the AngelCapital Association to be able
to teach them or train them onhow to be a good angel, you
know, how to do diligence, howto pick a company, what are you
look what are you looking forand all that type of thing. But
(08:20):
I didn't really couldn't findanything out there that was able
to demystify what is this.
Like, I would talk to people andthey would say angel investing.
I don't I don't even know whatthat means. Like, what what is
that exactly? And how do you doit? And who has to do it?
And I thought it was just forrich people. Do I have to have a
finance degree? There were somany questions. And I thought,
(08:40):
wait a minute. Let's try todemystify all of that before we
actually get into, well, how doyou pick a company?
How would they even know thatthey wanted to pick a company to
invest in if they don't evenunderstand the mechanics of
angel investing in general?
Sue Bevan Baggott (08:53):
I joke with Marcia because she actually got
into angel investing before Idid. She's one of my angel
mentors. But I choke that up.I'm an accidental angel
investor. I if you had asked meyears ago I mean, I have an
innovation background.
I thought a lot of theinnovations were happening in
large companies. If you wouldask me ten years ago that I was
gonna, you know, kind of get onthe field as an angel investor,
I would have laughed at you. Andit wasn't until, I started
(09:16):
understanding, you know, howmuch innovation was happening,
in the entrepreneurialecosystem, how that impacted,
you know, the communitiesgrowing, thriving, etcetera,
and, how angels really have thefirst vote on which innovations
get to go forward, you know,that that was, you know, part of
the motivation to to learn more.That and the fact that, you
(09:39):
know, I found out that womenwere only getting 2% of venture
capital. And I was just shockedand said there is just, you
know, no way 50% of ourpopulation has only 2% of the
good business ideas worthfunding, and that, is how I
ended up getting connected into,you know, learning about angel
investing.
Marcia Dawood (09:58):
Yes. And nowadays, people can invest for
as little as a $100, $200through equity crowdfunding
sites. So some people might haveheard of Kickstarter, Indiegogo,
which is a rewards basedcrowdfunding where there's no
exchange of ownership, or maybeeven like GoFundMe, which is a
donation based crowdfunding.People pool their money together
(10:19):
in order to help a cause. Butwith equity crowdfunding, you
are actually getting a smallpercentage of ownership of the
company.
And the crowd, in a lot of thesecases, can help them to market
the product or the company orhelp them to to grow and expand.
So this is something that isn'ttalked about very much because
it's only been allowed since2016 when the Securities and
(10:42):
Exchange Commission allowed forequity crowdfunding platforms to
to do this type of thing. And Ithink, you know, if we can get
more people in at least to kindof get started, learn about it,
it's a very easy way for peopleto learn without really having
to put out any money. I mean,they these public their public
platforms, the three that havethe biggest market share right
(11:03):
now are Wefunder, StartEngine,and Republic. And people could
just go on to those sites andperuse and kind of look around
and just see what it is thatactually makes up a startup
because each one of theseplatforms, when there is a a
company on their fundraising,they have to have a certain
amount of disclosures and andtalk about, you know, the
(11:24):
different aspects of a company.
It and I think a lot of timeswhen people go and they see the
videos and they look at what thecompanies are working on, they
think, oh, I had no idea thatthis is like how a company is
structured, how they actuallyask for investment. And I think
you can actually learn a lotjust from kinda looking around.
Donna Zaring (11:42):
You know, I think a lot of people may be asking
themselves, how can a how can acompany or a start up that's
focused on social impact makeany money? How is this something
that would be good to invest in?What would you say to someone
who might have a question likethat?
Sue Bevan Baggott (12:01):
Having a significant purpose is a real
advantage for a start up whenit's very clear what their
mission is and what they'retrying to accomplish. And,
really, what is a company doing?A company is looking to create
value, and there is a lot ofvalue in some of these, you
know, purpose driven companies.There's a company called Solo
Funds, and they set out to,disrupt payday lending. And for
(12:23):
those who don't, payday lendingis something that is, you know,
a lot of people live paycheck topaycheck, and they have
challenges that come up.
And sometimes even as much as acouple $100 could put a person
in a position where they havenowhere else to go for a loan to
a payday loan. But that causes aa a spiral of people in terms of
(12:43):
debt. And so solo funds, youknow, decided, you know, there
are gotta be a better way. Whatif there were a community
lending platform so the humanscould help other humans once
they understood what the needswere and, you know, set the
payback rules and all of that?So community lending to replace
payday lending is an excellentexample of, you know, value
(13:04):
value creation on both sides.
And when you have a for profitbusiness, it's a self sustaining
business model. Right? It'sgoing to be able to be around
for a lot longer. Sometimes theyneed extra help with the start
for, you know, this whole startup, right, at the start. But
once it gets going, the businessmodel can keep going.
So you can really magnify, theimpact over time. Whereas, you
(13:28):
know, a lot of nonprofits arehaving to go out for money on a
consist basis and just keepasking people to give to them.
So I think it's a reallypowerful model.
Donna Zaring (13:37):
Yeah. Me too. I I always you know, just coming up
through innovation, working withdifferent companies on building
new products and trying to findnew markets for products
throughout my career. You know,the first rule is always find
the unmet need. Right?
Find the under met or unmetneed. And when you look at some
(13:58):
of the challenges that we havein our community, these are big,
big issues and big needs. And ifwe can innovate to try to find a
better way to tackle some ofthese things, that's that's a
huge unmet need that that you'resolving and plenty of market
potential.
Sue Bevan Baggott (14:15):
Yeah. Well and some people don't even
realize. Like, I grew up my, mybackground is in global
innovation at Procter andGamble, and Procter and Gamble
has always been a purpose drivencompany. They have a very
specific statement of purposerelated to improving the lives
of the world's consumers. And,you know, improving people's
everyday lives was part of mymotivation, why I enjoyed doing
innovation in that where and,you know, it is also a, long
(14:39):
time, you know, high growthpublic company that is making a
profit as well as having apurpose.
So I really don't see why theycan't coexist.
Donna Zaring (14:48):
You know, the term social impact actually was first
used in a Yale Universityseminar in 1969 on their ethical
responsibilities ofinstitutional investors. I
thought that was reallyinteresting that the the term
social impact has been aroundfor that long. When were you
(15:08):
first aware of social impact,and and why did you become
interested in it?
Sue Bevan Baggott (15:13):
Well, you know, the actually, it was a
Cincinnati based company thatmade me first aware of social
impact, an organization calledNehemiah Manufacturing, which
was founded by Dan Meyer. And Ihad been doing some innovation
work at Procter and Gamble. Oneof the products that I innovated
was a little too small for P andG, and Meeamiia Manufacturing
actually took over this productas part of what they were doing.
(15:36):
And their social impact wasaround hiring, second chance
citizens. So they were doingbranded consumer products, you
know, creating them.
It was a for profit company, butat the same time, they were
giving, you know, people whohave had challenged backgrounds
an opportunity to work there andprogress. So it was my
interaction with with Nehemiahthat was one of my first
(15:57):
exposures to a purpose drivenfor profit company that could do
both.
Marcia Dawood (16:02):
You know, early on after I first learned what
angel investing was and was sofascinated that there were
entrepreneurs working on suchcool innovative things right in
my own backyard. I was living inPittsburgh, Pennsylvania at the
time, not too far fromCincinnati. And I was just
completely fascinated thinking,wow, there's so much innovation
happening all over the world inevery city and every town. But
(16:24):
then I started to realize, waita minute, like, so little
funding is going to women, asSue mentioned, and, you know,
how how is this how do we changethis, and what does this all
mean? And so as I got to be moreinvolved with that and learn
about, you know, where thefunding was actually going and
what types of things wereactually being funded, I
thought, wait a minute.
We we have a problem here. Youknow, there's a lot of money
(16:46):
going into health care, but howmuch of it is actually going
into women's health care? Sowe've got a huge discrepancy
there. So then, like, again,with the word impact, is it
really impact investing toinvest in a women's health care
company because it's women'shealth care as opposed to men's
(17:07):
health care? Well, that doesn'tmake any sense.
So, you know, all of thosethings is really why the Next
Wave Impact Fund was puttogether, as Sue mentioned,
because we were trying to provelike, hey. Wait a minute. We can
actually show that there is,there are returns to be had even
though we are working on all thethings trying to make the world
(17:28):
a better place.
Donna Zaring (17:29):
You both are angel investors. Is angel investing
the first round of money forthese startups? Have they had to
use other tools to get started?What are some of the things that
you hear from the startupfounders?
Marcia Dawood (17:44):
I would say that, you know, angels are early. I
don't know that they're alwaysthe first money in nor should
they be. In a lot of cases, youknow, it's a very tough
balancing act at the verybeginning to figure out like how
much funding are you going totake, when are you going to take
funding, from who, how much, allof these things. Because in a
(18:05):
lot of cases, as entrepreneursare building their companies,
they are really wanting tobootstrap and try to get at
least a minimum viable productto show to investors before they
would actually have, you know,ask for an investment. And Sue
and I actually co wrote anarticle about how one of the
(18:26):
very important things that Ithink entrepreneurs miss is this
building of relationships beforethey actually need to ask for
money.
Sometimes entrepreneurs will belike, no. No. I don't want to
show you what I'm working on yetbecause, you know, it's like
it's so private and I don't wantyou to see it until it's
perfect. And really that's notthe right way to think about it.
We want to know what you'reworking on, how you're building
(18:48):
it, how you're thinking aboutit, build a relationship, you
know, Sue and I are both a partof MindShift Capital.
We invested in a company where Iknew the founder for six years
before we actually made aninvestment. So there are a lot
of things that can really help acompany at the very beginning to
make sure that they'refundraising properly. Just
(19:09):
because somebody needs the moneydoesn't necessarily mean that
they should just run out and tryto get investors because that's
where I usually see companiesfail. They really need to be
thoughtful about where they'restarting, how they're starting,
and that's why Sue and I bothare huge fans of crowdfunding.
And, you know, I explainedequity crowdfunding before, but
sometimes rewards basedcrowdfunding is just as good, if
(19:32):
not better, because you don'thave to give any away any equity
in order to do that.
So that's another place thatpeople can start.
Sue Bevan Baggott (19:39):
There also are sometimes opportunities, for
founders to get access to earlycapital through through grants,
and that is a great way tostart, particularly if you're
working in an area of positivesocial environmental impact.
There might be grants available.We're very fortunate actually at
Cincinnati to have Main StreetVentures, which is providing
(20:01):
grants that help kick start,entrepreneurs. So that's a great
place to look. And, you know,you know, that that would be the
one thing, you know, one Iwould, you know, add on to what
Marsha is saying.
And just to be clear, like, youknow, building those
relationships early, you know,they need to be thinking about
all the different relationshipsthey're gonna need. They need to
(20:21):
think about their investorrelationships, but there's also
a lot of people out there thatare willing to help start ups if
they take the time to interact.Now, of course, they should have
their legal representation andmake sure they're, you know,
that they have their,intellectual property plans in
place before they go out and doa lot of broad scale sharing
sharing. But that sharing, thatinteraction will really help
(20:42):
them hone their ideas. I mean,all the best innovation, it
requires iteration andexperimentation.
And if you're not sharing yourideas with other people, you
could be going down the wrongpath. Right? You need to be
sharing, sharing those ideas andunderstanding. Are you building
value? How are you buildingvalue?
Do you have that right, asMarsha said, early market
product fit? And then, you thinkabout where do I get the
(21:05):
investment that I need topotentially scale it.
Donna Zaring (21:07):
And and that's really where organizations like
Flywheel come in and for us inparticular focusing on social
impact. That's where we bring ina broad network of coaches,
subject matter experts, likeyourselves. And, Sue, I know
you've been a coach for many ofour startup founders throughout
the years. But, yeah, we webelieve anyone who's interested
(21:31):
in changing the world andwilling to invest their time,
money, and expertise isconsidered an angel. And
sometimes, you know, as we workthrough through the eight weeks
that we coach startups who areworking in the social impact
space, we see that they're verygood with the the idea and they
(21:51):
know what problem they wannasolve, but they're not always
savvy on the aspects of runninga business.
And other times, it may be theother way. They may be very tech
savvy, but aren't really aren'treally able to focus on what it
is they're trying to solve. Butit's thanks to angels like
yourself, we get the guidancethat they need to get their
(22:12):
concept to the right place wherethey can then start thinking
about funding. What are some ofthe things you tend to see with
with startup founders as they'restarting out besides how to ask
for money? What are some of thebiggest challenges that you see
when you're coaching?
Sue Bevan Baggott (22:29):
Well, I think you you hit on one that I see
frequently, which is, sometimesyou'll get highly technical
founders who, are, you know,really good at solving the
technical side of the problem,but maybe not as good at solving
the human side. And quitehonestly, the human side is
often the more challenging one.And so, you know, so I do see
that happening, quite a bit.And, you know, you need you need
(22:50):
those kinds of skills. Right?
You need the human skills aswell as the technical skills to
have these scalable, solutions.So I definitely see that. And,
and then I know what you saidinitially too that we often see
that the founders, understandthe problem that they wanna
solve, but they may not have allof that full range of of of
business skills. So really,encourage them to look for
(23:13):
places like Flywheel where theycan get that sort of help and
advice and guidance.
Marcia Dawood (23:18):
I'd also add that, you know, sometimes
entrepreneurs, they are solvinga big problem, but they can't
articulate exactly what thatproblem is in a timely manner.
What I mean by that is sometimesas they're going through their
pitch deck or they're talkinginvestors, they're very, very
focused on what their solutionis, whatever they've built their
(23:40):
baby, which is great, exceptthat if they're not solving a
really big problem, thenbasically they just have a
solution that's in search of aproblem. And if it's not really
that sticky and we're not goingto change our behavior in order
to use it, then it might notactually scale and grow and be
something that is marketable. SoI always encourage entrepreneurs
(24:03):
from the very beginning to bevery, very, very clear on
exactly the problem that they'resolving and how big this problem
really is.
Donna Zaring (24:10):
Yeah. Regardless of whether or not they're in
social impact. Right? That'sjust that that's true for any
kind of business.
Marcia Dawood (24:16):
Exactly. Yeah.
Sue Bevan Baggott (24:18):
And then, you know, Marsha, you reminded me
too. The other thing in terms ofscalability, it's gotta be a big
and important problem, you know,that people are anxious to find
a solution for. And then you youalso need the sales and
marketing skills to do that.And, initially, it's the
entrepreneur that is all ofthose things. You know?
They're the number onefundraiser. They're the number
one marketing person. They'rethe number one sales I mean, so
(24:40):
they really do need a broadrange of they need to develop a
broad range of skills. Theymight not be the expert in all
those eventually when they getto the point, but early on, they
need advice in all those areas,and they need to be able to
bring that together to build asustainable business.
Donna Zaring (24:54):
Think it's just an important time to be having a
conversation about women andinvesting and what that means.
Tell us a little bit more aboutwhat you are seeking to
accomplish with Show Her TheMoney.
Marcia Dawood (25:07):
The film, it's a documentary, Show Her The Money.
It's basically showing severalfund managers and then the
companies invested in and what'shappened to them over a period
of time. And really what thefilm is meant to do because
television and and movies tendto get people's attention and
build awareness. And really,that's the heart of the
(25:29):
documentary. And Catherine Gray,who is the producer and the
brains behind the movie, she'sreally the one who not only came
up with the idea, but she alsohas done so many other things in
order to promote it and get morepeople involved in it.
And I met her because someonesaw her TEDx talk and saw mine
(25:50):
and said, do you know you guysare talking about the exact same
thing? You should know eachother. And so from there, we
ended up having a conversationand she said, hey. You know, I'm
putting out this documentary.It's almost done, but I still
need a couple of investors.
Would you be interested ininvesting? And I thought, well,
that's kind of interesting. Andso I went to Sue and said, hey.
(26:10):
What do you think about this?And we looked it over, thought
it over, and then, of course,pretty quickly, we're like, hey.
Yeah. This is, like, totally inline with what we care about.
Sue Bevan Baggott (26:19):
Yeah. Because we're talking about things that
skills and backgrounds that, youknow, you need. And Marcia and I
really wanted to drive change.We wanted to drive more people
onto the field for angelinvesting, support more of
these, you know, amazingentrepreneurs. And, you know,
here and media is not in eitherof our backgrounds.
And here was an opportunity toto do that collaboratively. It's
been amazing to see how wellreceived the film has been. It's
(26:40):
won multiple awards. And andnow, we were doing live
screenings all throughout, 2024.And now throughout 2025, there
will be, a lot a lot moreopportunities for virtual
screenings as well.
So it's exciting to see it. Themomentum building, Catherine
calls it the movie mint, themomentum building, and people,
and and it's really and it'sactually just a fundamentally
(27:03):
fun movie to watch because thestorytelling is is really good.
The Kai Dickens, who's thedirector, did a fabulous job of
bringing all these storiestogether.
Donna Zaring (27:11):
Angel investing. It's oftentimes one of the first
investments for a startupfounder for a company. Why is
angel funding so important?
Marcia Dawood (27:23):
So I go over a lot of this in my book about why
people would become angelinvestors. And there's several
reasons. In fact, I started apodcast called the angel next
door back in 2021. Ithighlighting people and asking
them these very questions. Whydo you do this?
Why would you put your after taxdollars to work in something
(27:44):
that is relatively risky? Youknow, we lose probably on
average about 50% of the moneythat we put in. If out of 10
companies, five of them willprobably completely go under,
maybe two or three will returnmoney, and then the other one or
two you're hoping will be bigwins and kind of cover all the
(28:05):
rest of those losses. So, youknow, this is something that you
really want to think aboutbefore you would put in some of
your money knowing that there'sa possibility that you might
lose it. But at the same time,to Sue's point from earlier, we
really care about innovation.
We care about the things wherewe wanna see change. And what if
there weren't angel investors?Because those bigger VC guys,
(28:30):
90% of their investments thatthey get to invest in down the
road when they are a little bitmore established only happen
because angel investors came inearly. And in a lot of these
cases, we're talking about beingable to help these entrepreneurs
to grow and scale theircompanies. And, you know, Sue is
a perfect example because she'san incredible mentor and a great
(28:52):
coach to a lot of startupcompanies.
So not only is she investingwith her dollars, but she's
investing with her time. And somany angels do that. At the
Angel Capital Association, wehave about 16,000 members, and
we've estimated that there'sabout a million hours of
volunteered to startups over thecourse of every year from
(29:15):
angels. So imagine if we didn'thave this. So we're always
trying to encourage people to,you know, put their money and
their time into the things thatthey care about.
And we're not talking about yourentire life savings. Certainly,
please don't use your kid'scollege education money when
they're like 15 years old. Don'tdo that. But at the same time,
(29:36):
you know, at the Angel CapitalAssociation, we say probably of
your investable assets, maybe 7%is something that you would put
into a riskier asset class likethis. But keep in mind that
there are plenty of angels outthere that do make a return, and
you can, if you have adiversified strategy, you have a
strategy, which is a big thingthat I talk about in my book, do
(29:57):
good while doing well, is if youhave that and you know that
you're spreading your riskacross several companies and
you're also working with thecompanies and the people who are
helping the board, the advisors,you know, these are things that
can really help to grow acompany and get it to the
scalability and to the changethat we wanna see in the world.
Sue Bevan Baggott (30:19):
Yeah. And, just to, you know, build on what
Marsha said, I mean, we angelsare those early gatekeepers. So
without angels, there are somany innovations that, you know,
wouldn't even have a chance toget started. And, you know,
fortunately, there are angelswho do, you know, give their
time, talent, and treasure tothat. And what we're trying to
(30:40):
do is just encourage more peopleto think about that.
I mean, even if you're not goingto invest money, you know, think
about, volunteering forsomething like Flywheel, because
it's a great way. They they needa lot of help. They need a lot
of advice, and it's a a greatway to give back. It's very
rewarding. It is very rewardingto see these entrepreneurs get
(31:00):
empowered, see them growingtheir businesses.
It's, it's an exciting thing.And then the other thing I would
mention is, yes, you can useyour investable dollars with
money from your self directedIRA, and you can use money from
a self directed donor advisedfund. So you can actually use
philanthropic dollars. And sothen even if you're not getting
(31:22):
the return on impact, but youcan make your philanthropic
dollars go farther. Because ifyour investment does get a
return, then you can keep oninvesting in in new innovations.
So I think there's just a lot ofaspects of angel investing that
people just don't know about,but there's a major, opportunity
for a ripple effect when you doparticipate.
Donna Zaring (31:41):
That's so true. And and even for those who just
want to make a social impact andget a a return on investment in
terms of social capital, thereare ways to use donor advised
funds to support work andthrough for example, Flywheel
offers the philanthrepreneurprogram. So most of our
(32:01):
contributors are from donoradvised funds who wanna take
those dollars that they wouldotherwise give to, you know,
other charities. They investthat with Flywheel for us to be
able to provide some support forstartups as they're just getting
started before they're ready forangel capital. So there's a lot
(32:24):
of different ways you can putyour dollars to work.
Sue Bevan Baggott (32:26):
And it's a great way. It's a great way to
do it. It's a great way to seedinnovation that's important in
creating the changes you wannasee in the world.
Donna Zaring (32:33):
You know, we say be the change you wanna see. I
love that. I just love thatphrase because it says so much
about our ability to not justsee things that need to happen
in the world, but do littlethings to make a difference.
What are some examples of any ofcompanies just doing things to
(32:54):
create social impact that reallyinspire you?
Marcia Dawood (32:59):
Well, we talk a lot about women's health care
because that's something that isextremely underfunded. For many,
many years, they looked at womenas little men. And if you can
believe it, it wasn't untilrecently, maybe like a decade
ago, that they actually startedputting like making sure that
(33:19):
there were women involved inclinical trials. In a lot of
cases, they would have aclinical trial on some kind of a
drug or treatment or somethinglike that, and there were no
women involved in it. So like mybest example would be like,
okay, aspirin.
If you have a bottle of aspirinand I look at the back of it and
see what the dosage is for meand I see what the dosage is for
(33:40):
my husband, is it different? No.It's not different. But we're
very different. We're verydifferent size.
We're very different weight, youknow. So it's not that's a, you
know, kind of a a basic example.But I mean, that's happening if
you think about it across a lotof health care. So if we can see
companies, and Sue and I see alot of them, that are working
(34:02):
specifically on solvinghealthcare need for women, like
we're all about it. In fact, onecompany that we're extremely
excited about called JoyLux isworking not just on pelvic floor
issues and a lot of things thatwomen experience after
childbirth and even duringmenopause, but they're working
on a platform community waysthat women can talk to each
(34:24):
other and actually learn abouthow they can overcome a lot of
these challenges where beforethese were kind of taboo topics.
Nobody really talked about me.I'd ask your mom and maybe your
mom wouldn't even wanna tell youabout it. So, you know, now
we're getting into a lot morewhere we are seeing there's more
being talked about it. It's notso taboo and we can really start
(34:44):
to make a difference in women'slives.
Sue Bevan Baggott (34:49):
I build on that with, there's another
company that's part of our NextWave Impact Fund called Motivo.
And basically, what they'redoing is improving access to
mental health care, which, youknow, even before the pandemic,
it was an issue. And now it's somuch more of a widespread issue.
But in order to be qualified toprovide mental health care,
people need to haveobservational hours and things
(35:09):
like that. So this is a privateplatform that allows for many
more, mental healthprofessionals to be trained more
efficiently, more effectively.
And, you know, that's somethingthat benefits benefits everyone,
when you can increase access anddo that in a in a scalable way.
Donna Zaring (35:28):
Awesome. So making the world better and just doing
business better. It soundssounds like a good concept for a
book. So what any last thoughtsas we get ready to wrap up and
and, you know, you amazing womencontinue to go out into the
world and make investments andchange. What what's what's your
(35:53):
final last word of advice to ouraudience who's thinking about
how they can change the worldwith their investment and time
and treasure?
Marcia Dawood (36:03):
Well, I think it's just something people need
to do. Don't wait. Don'thesitate. We see a lot of people
who are like, oh, this is reallya great idea. I would really
like to do this.
But then, you know, lifehappens. They don't get
involved. They're not reallysure where to go. And, you know,
especially in the Cincinnatiarea, there's lots and lots of
(36:27):
things happening, but wouldpeople actually think that
Cincinnati is like a start uphub? But there is so much
happening there in Pittsburgh,in all of these places, in every
city, in every town.
So all you need to do is just doa an online search of
entrepreneurship in my area orstartup events or, you know, the
(36:47):
most simple thing, angelinvestors in and then put in
your town. And you can find somany things that are happening
and actually meet some reallyfun and cool people. Soon, I
would have never met if itweren't for angel investing. So
that's also a big perk.
Sue Bevan Baggott (37:01):
Yeah. I know. I was thoroughly enjoyed meeting
Marcia and all the other angelinvestors. You know, everybody
who's involved is really allabout helping more startups
succeed, which is exciting. And,you know, I would say the same
thing that Marcia did is it's,you know, don't wait.
Get out there and see what'shappening, and you can really
get excited about innovation.And it could be all the things
(37:22):
she said. It could also be anaccelerator that's in your area,
and, it could also be theuniversity that's in your area.
A lot of university programsare, you know, bringing together
entrepreneurship programs. And,you know, once you get a taste
of it and you see the excitingthings that these entrepreneurs
are coming up with, that'llthat'll get you involved.
Donna Zaring (37:42):
And where can our listeners learn more about you?
How can they learn more aboutthe work that you're doing?
Marcia Dawood (37:48):
Well, I have a website. It's simply my name,
Marcia, m a r c I a, Dawood, d aw o o d dot com. Everything's
there.
Sue Bevan Baggott (37:56):
And the best way to to find me is on,
LinkedIn. And I think Marshawould say the same. Anybody who
wants more information about DoGood While Doing Well, about
angel investing, about all thedifferent pathways that you can
use, general advice funds, youknow, IRAs, etcetera, we'd be
more than happy to connect withfolks and help them find their
(38:17):
path to being a change angel.Fantastic.
Donna Zaring (38:22):
Thank you both so much for all the work that
you're doing to createopportunities for more people in
our in our world and for being aguest on our podcast, On the
Fly! It's great to hear from youboth, and, I look forward to
seeing you very soon.
Marcia Dawood (38:40):
Thanks for having me.
Sue Bevan Baggott (38:40):
Thanks so much.
Joan Kaup (38:43):
On the Fly! is produced by Joey Scarillo with
music composed by Ben Hammer,recorded at eighteen nineteen
Innovation Hub in Cincinnati,Ohio, courtesy of the University
of Cincinnati.
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