He “Un-Gayed” Himself: the Man the LGBT Lobby Wished Didn’t Exist (ft. Ali Jaffery)

When Ali Jaffery first experienced same-sex attraction at age 12, he began an 11-year journey of silence, shame, and self-loathing. Growing up in a conservative Muslim family with limited male mentorship, he felt fundamentally different and broken—convinced that his feelings made him unworthy in the eyes of Allah.

This profound conversation reveals the transformative moment when Ali  began dismantling what he calls "the identity paradigm"—the false notion that experiencing same-sex attraction makes someone inherently different or forces them to choose between their faith and their feelings.

Ali articulates a powerful alternative framework grounded in Islamic tradition: differentiating between having desires (which aren't sinful) and acting upon them (which involves choice). Through deep reflection on the Qur’an, he discovered that the divine message wasn't about condemning people with certain attractions but rather calling everyone toward taqwa (God-consciousness) regardless of their internal struggles.

The healing journey Ali describes involves brotherhood, healthy masculine connections, and psychological insights that reveal how his sexualised attractions masked deeper needs for acceptance and belonging. Most movingly, he shares how honesty about his struggles led to a fulfilling marriage with a woman who responded to his disclosure with remarkable compassion…

For anyone navigating the complex intersection of faith and so-called “sexuality”—or simply trying to understand how Islamic teachings can address contemporary challenges with both compassion and principle—this episode offers rare wisdom. Ali's story demonstrates that neither shame-filled silence nor identity-based surrender are the only options, showing instead a third way: how struggle itself can become a pathway to spiritual growth and authentic relationships.

In this episode, Ali and the host Hamza Andreas Tzortzis discuss:

• First experiencing same-sex attraction at age 12 while lacking masculine role models and mentorship
• Carrying the secret for 11 painful years due to shame, fear and self-loathing
• Finding the courage to speak openly in counselling sessions at university
• Distinguishing between having desires and acting upon them – a crucial Islamic principle
• Discovering that healthy male relationships and brotherhood were what he truly craved beneath sexualised attractions
• Reframing the Quranic story of Prophet Lūt عليه السلام as calling people toward taqwa
• Building a successful marriage based on complete transparency and shared spiritual values
• Creating support systems for Muslims with same-sex attraction to find community without shame
• Emphasising that Allah judges actions rather than feelings we don't control
• Offering a third path beyond both denial and identity-based approaches to same-sex attraction

…and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
That was an epic epic podcast.
It took me three minutes tojust open my mouth and say I
like men.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Bro, this is so inspirational, it's unbelievable
.
I nearly broke down.
I was fed lies.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
This world says you're gay, you're inherently
different, and I had to breakthis identity paradigm because
it's so corrosive, so corrosiveso I hated myself.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
And this lasted 11 years, oh my god, subhanallah,
that's that moved me actually,because when we're growing up as
children, we usually realisethree things.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
But I had a calling from that day to do something
for the Muslim community,because all the secrets there
it's all in the Quran.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
It says so this is quite heroic, bro, I have to
admit, and this is a sign ofdivine love you know, the first
time I told her about thesame-sex attraction, her
response was that is sobeautiful.
What she probably saw in you wasa real man, bro, because a real
man deals with his.
I think this is going to beimpactful for many, many people.
In this impactful episode, aliJafari shares his deeply

(01:05):
personal journey of navigatingsame-sex attraction.
He unpacks the tools,principles and divine guidance
that helped him resist the urgeto sexualize his desires and
reveals how a taqwa-centeredapproach transformed his path.
As-salamu alaykum, as-salamualaykum, so good to see you.
It's easy Good to have you here.
May Allah bless you.

(01:25):
May Allah bless you.
Thank you for coming and comingall this way and giving us time
to share some of your personaland theological and spiritual
insights.
Before we formally start andask you a question, I just want
to affirm or express somethingwhich is very important You're a
hero, right, a spiritual hero,alhamdulillah.

(01:46):
You have written amazinginsights Concerning your
struggles, if you like, or howto deal with same-sex attraction
, and I think this is going tobe an amazing podcast and I
think people are going to cometo the same conclusion that
you're a spiritual hero the wayyou are able to reframe these
issues and have an anallah-centric approach, a

(02:08):
taqwa-centric approach, as youmentioned, concerning these
issues.
So the first question I have isfor you, my dear brother, is
can you describe the moment, thefirst moment or the period in
your life when you started torealize you had same-sex
attraction, and what was goingthrough your heart and mind at
that time?

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Well, thank you for the very kind introduction.
Alhamdulillah, praise be toAllah, subhanahu wa ta'ala.
I vividly remember it wasprobably 11, 12, you know, when
you're going through thatpuberty stage and so on and I

(02:49):
had my first same-sex attraction.
Now I knew that I feltdifferent from the boys from a
very young age.
So I grew up with mostlysisters, so I had, you know, a
mom and sisters.
Dad worked two jobs.
He had to work that to sustainthe family, so I was pretty much
surrounded by the feminine.

(03:10):
So when I grew up I went toschool and these boys were quite
rough and they were likeplaying and I was like, well, no
one's played with me like that.
No one's had you know kind offootball.
No one's taught me how to playfootball or cricket or I don't
know what these things are.
So I basically felt differentfrom a very young age and a lot

(03:35):
of people say, oh, I was bornthis way, right, because as
early as they remember, theyhave this feeling that they were
different.
As they remember, they havethis feeling that they were
different.
So what was familiar to me wasfemininity and what was
different to me was masculinity,because my elder brother is 13
years older than me, so Icouldn't really connect with him

(03:57):
at that point as well.
So I didn't really have anactive male mentor when I was
growing up.
Fast forward to age 12, where Isaw my PE teacher and I was like
, wow, this guy is really, youknow, he's assertive with his
masculinity, he knows like he'snot ashamed of his body.

(04:20):
I used to cover my body up.
I wasn't, you know, comfortablewith it and I was like, oh, I
see this confidence, you knowthis mysteriousness in him and I
was attracted to that and I wasgoing through puberty at the
time.
I'd also moved from Pakistan.
My family had moved I was 12 atthe time from Pakistan to

(04:44):
England and, you know, suddenlycomplete culture change.
You have blonde, white, youknow, kind of blue eyed people
and I'm thinking, oh my God,this is completely different,
you know.
So I had a lot of identitycrises going on at that time at

(05:07):
age 12.
My first same-sex attractionwas my PE teacher.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Okay, that's very interesting.
So you mentioned about your dadhaving two jobs and your sense
of, or your understanding of,masculinity, or the lack of
having masculine role models byvirtue of the economic situation
, you had to work two jobs andthere was a disconnect with your
older brother because he's 13years older than you.
So your, your perception ofmasculinity how did that kind of

(05:35):
shape?
Do you think that that wascritical in shaping your
understanding of, well, yoursame-sex attraction?
Yeah, that critical and maybeunpack that a little bit more
absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
When I, when I grew up, um, mum was a hero, right,
because she was present, she,she knew what my uh friends
names were, she was involved,whereas my dad, that wasn't a
bad father, it's just theeconomic situation as, as you
said, that he had to kind of,and I was the youngest of five.

(06:07):
So you know, the younger oneisn't going to get that much
attention because it's left onthe others too.
So it wasn't like he wasintentionally.
You know he did still used togive me love and and so on.
Uh, but I think I connected, apart of me, connected more to my
sisters, because that was kindof the world that I knew.

(06:29):
You know, like if I, if we weretv, I would watch what they
would watch because I wasyounger, or if they would
discuss something.
So my world was very feminine.
And you know, looking back atit, what could I have done?
I couldn't have done anything.
It was, you know, looking backat it, what could I have done?
I couldn't have done anything.
It was, you know, there wasn'tan influence there.

(06:54):
And when I started the work, thetherapy, I had a lot of anger
towards my father.
I had anger towards you know,but then I'm an adult now, I'm a
parent now and I can see theeconomic difficulties that
fathers have to state.
So I have a more rounded viewof it where I'm thinking you
know what this might besomething that God wanted me to
have.
He wanted me to travel withthis and have that sense of

(07:15):
you're going to grow up withouta really male mentorship present
my dad.
Sometimes he would get angry,he would be angry.
He wasn't physically abusive,but sometimes he was verbally
abusive to my mum, and my mumdidn't used to say anything, she
just used to be quiet.
She had sabr.
So I saw the world from mymum's eyes, you know, and it's a

(07:39):
really skewed way of looking atit, but because she was more
involved I favoured her At thattime.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
I kind of favoured her more.
Well, these are actually verymature insights, bro, very
inspirational.
You have a very kind ofholistic, rounded understanding
of your past, which is quiteremarkable, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
I've done a lot of work.
A lot of work figuring out why,why?
Why did I so againstmasculinity when I was growing
up?
But for me there was no malementorship.

(08:35):
That was a significant malementor that was present for me
in my life, that was activelyinterested.
You know that say oh Ali,you're handsome, Mashallah, you
have a great body, You'rehandsome.
Needed that positiveaffirmation coming from, because
I'm a child, I can't give it tomyself, right?
I needed someone saying, no,you can do it, you know.

(08:57):
Or someone to teach me cricket,or someone to teach me football
or whatever it is.
I needed that.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, I always say real men elevate other men and
we even lack that these dayssometimes, you know, but that's
another topic.
So you're 12 years old.
How long did this kind of samesex attraction but from the
point of view that you didn'treally express it to anyone, you
didn't tell anyone about thesefeelings how long did that last
for?

Speaker 1 (09:25):
well, um, first, when I experienced, like, oh, I'm
attracted to my PE teacher, likewhat's, what's, what's
happening.
And, uh, it was weird because,um, you know, I, I, I didn't
understand at the time what whatwas happening.
And I remember going intoGoogle back then, right, writing
men like men.
Because I didn't have a wordfor it, I didn't know what it,

(09:48):
what it meant.
And then internet beinginternet, came up with images,
came up with pornography, and I,that was the oh okay, so this
is what men like, right.
And because I didn't have amedium to ask someone, because I
was so ashamed of it, to sayI'm liking men, hang on, other

(10:09):
men are liking women, I'm likingmen.
The only way I could do it wasonline, so I wrote it.
These images came up and youknow, it was at 12, later on,
where I sexualized my attachmenttowards men.
And then, when I realized thatI was sexually attracted again,

(10:31):
I'm going through puberty, youknow, I remember going through
my dad and saying, oh, there's,like, you know, changes going on
, and you know he was just likeoh yeah, it's fine, you're going
through it, you know.
And he's a doctor.
So he was just like oh yeah,it's fine, you're going through
it.
He's a doctor, so he was justlike it's okay, but I don't
think I had to talk right and Ithink a lot of maybe people of

(10:56):
our generation don't have that.
You just grow up and you kindof either you find out through
the internet or so on.
I had a lot of shame, right.
I come from a very conservativeMuslim family, very religious
both sides of my family veryreligious and the shame for me
was not for myself, but if thiswent out, what would the

(11:21):
reputation of the family be?
You know like would peoplemarry just because of me?
People might not marry mysisters.
I had this incredible weightwhere I thought, if this gets
out, I don't really care aboutmyself, but I care about my
family and you know what wouldhappen.

(11:41):
And of course, I had shametowards myself because I was
disgusted by the attraction.
And when I read the Quran atthe time and God had very strict
, very, very strict words to sayabout it, I was like, oh my God
, why do I have this?
So I hated myself and I hatedthe attraction and I wanted for

(12:03):
it to go away.
I didn't want anyone to know.
And this lasted 11 years, oh mygod.
So 11 years I did not tell asoul because I felt that there
was something inherently wrongwith me, something that was
broken.
Maybe I had done somethingwrong or maybe I was wrong.
I had questioned my lineage.

(12:24):
You know I'm a descendant fromfrom the Prophet's lineage,
maybe not, you know.
I kind of really thought, youknow, maybe there's something
wrong with me, maybe this isn'tright or something's happened
and I had a lot of self-hate atthat at that time.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, well, so upon like 11 years.
So that moved me actually,because I didn't experience
anything like you.
But you know, when we'regrowing up as children, we
usually realize three thingsbefore the age of 18.
Something's wrong.
It could be anything, it couldbe desires, it could be,

(13:03):
whatever the case may be.
You realize something's wrong,then you realize you're alone to
a certain degree, then yourealize you don't belong to a
certain degree, and those thingsare like kind of traumatic
experiences for people growingup, and then you understand them
through a particular lens thatyou developed, right.
I had an experience where I waslike, oh my God, something's

(13:23):
wrong, you know, and I was only11 or 12 years old and it was
due to puberty, right.
And now I'm laughing at itbecause it was a natural thing,
it wasn't a big deal, but Ididn't know at the time and it
took me around two or threeyears or maybe more to actually

(13:43):
come out of it, like, realize itwasn't a big deal, but I
already suffered that trauma.
And the reason what you justsaid caught me is because you
said 11 years and I'm feelingthat, bro, yeah, so this is
quite heroic, bro, I have toadmit you know it's.
May Allah bless you, man, andthis is a sign of divine love,
you know, because you know theProphet said that if Allah loves
someone, he's going to testthem right.
So you know, subhanallah.

(14:06):
So, okay, so you had self-hateand you had disgust.
So when did you start torealize that there was a
distinction between having thedesire and actually manifesting
it, practicing it?
Because it looks like you'vemixed everything together.
That's right.
Yes, and that's the trick ofshaitan, isn't it?

(14:26):
Yes, to actually, you know,dismantle you and make you feel,
you know, disgusting and tomake you feel that you're
unworthy and to make you feel,you know, that you hate, that
you should loathe yourself.
Yeah, when?
When was the moment and I'massuming it's after those 11
years that you actually reachedout to people or you started to?

(14:48):
You know you had enough and youwere to express yourself or
connect with, maybe, brotherhoodor someone who was learned, or
whatever the case may be?
Yeah, what was the?
The outlet?

Speaker 1 (14:57):
yes, uh, very good question and alhamdulillah,
great that.
I think a lot of us relate tothat, puberty years being an
identity crisis for a lot of us.
For me it was.
I was in the middle year of myuniversity, so we had like a,
you know, like a sandwich yearwhere you do a placement and I

(15:18):
was studying engineering andengineering maths, which is very
, very difficult.
I'm a good mathematician, butengineering maths, which is very
, very difficult.
I'm a good mathematician, butengineering maths another level.
So I had.
My upbringing was such thatbecause I was an academic,
because I needed a way forpeople to like me, because I

(15:41):
didn't like myself, so I becamean academic to say, okay, mommy
and daddy, like good grades, I'mgoing to be, you know, the
A-star student I'm going to.
I'm going to be like, uh, uh,people pleasing, basically, um,
so I reached this point where Iwent into university and I could
not perform as well as collegeas an A-star student and that

(16:08):
broke me down because it waslike, oh, I'm supposed to be the
clever one, right, that's myidentity.
I built that identity up.
That broke down.
So I had half a year, like halfyear credits, to reset.
I was doing my internship.
It was the first time I wasworking, so that was kind of

(16:30):
strenuous as well and I waslearning to drive at that time
as well, and also the first timeI was away from, like family
and stuff.
I was in Cheltenham at the timeand I remember driving and my
instructor was like this youknow those typical white men who

(16:52):
are like a bit angry and theyshout at you and you know like
when you're driving, and he'sreally specific.
So I was scared of him.
He was a bloke, he was a bloke,typical bloke.
He was a bloke, he was a bloke,typical bloke.
And he said to me Ali, I don'tknow what's happening, but

(17:14):
whatever I'm saying to you isn'tgoing to your head.
When he was trying to, you know, kind of teach me to drive.
And I recognized at that pointthat something was mentally
unstable in me, that I hadreached a crisis in my life at
that point where I was doing alot of things I had a lot of
like is my degree going to work?
What is going to happen to myfuture?
Because, remember, universityis also the time when you're
seeing couples.
Right, you're shielded from it.

(17:36):
From that age.
At university, you're seeing,oh, there's couples.
And then I was thinking what'sgoing to happen to me, what's
going to be my future?
Now I'm not the clever boybecause I'm flunking half of my
university degree.
And then I went into crisis andI did not know what to do.
And then the only thing Isearched on the university and

(17:57):
they had a counselor, and so Ibooked a session with that
counselor.
I could not get myself to writedown why I had put it, because
there was so much shame.
I could not say you know why Iwas seeing that counselor?
Because and that's probablypartly shame Maybe there was ego

(18:21):
.
Maybe there was ego in there aswell, where I was thinking oh
me checking in.
You know, and I think formyself and a lot of men it takes
a lot of courage to go intocounseling going to therapy, you
know it's like until things arereally bad, right.
But then I felt you know what Ineed to do it.
And I remember going in thatfirst session with that

(18:44):
counselor sitting down and justbreathing and thinking, oh my
God, I'm here, I'm in counseling, and I was like looking at her
and she was classic counselorpose, where she's kind of
sitting forward leaning andshe's trying to and she's saying

(19:04):
how can I help?
Because I put TBD in the thingwhere you're supposed to put why
you're here To be disgusted,yeah.
So it took me three minutes,and three minutes is long.
It took me a long, long time tojust open my mouth and say I

(19:25):
like men, because I wasdisgusted, I had said it for 11
years, I was disgusted, I hadsaid it for 11 years, I was
disgusted by it.
And as soon as I said I likemen, and then she was like okay,
this is what it is.
And then when she contained mein that moment, I felt like, oh
my God, like years of shame andyears of just keeping it to

(19:48):
myself and, oh my God, god's notjust, you know, sent a
lightning bolt and killed mebecause I'm sinful, right.
So all of this kind of years ofweight just came down and I just
started crying because you know, it was tears of joy in a sense
, to say I'm not this, this,this by myself.

(20:10):
There is somebody else, who,who now knows, and you know,
that was the um opening pointfor me to trust somebody else,
um, and, and yeah, so I, I, um,I imagine, and I understand the
weight that people now, whenthey come to me and they carry,

(20:32):
it was me.
Back then it just felt like, ohmy God, I've told someone, it's
no longer in my head anymore,it's out.
It was scary.
It was scary at the same timebecause the cat's out of the bag
, I can't put it back in, but itwas relieving at the same time,
because I felt rahmah of Allahsubhanahu wa ta'ala at that
moment that you know, you don't,you don't have to suffer alone.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah so you mentioned in your writings that Allah
opened the door to healing.
Yeah, dealing with thesituation.
So would that be?
Was that the first door thatwas open?

Speaker 1 (21:03):
that was the first door, definitely, because, um,
it was the first door was sayingyou know what?
This is me, this is who I am,and if Allah gave me same sex
attraction, you know, or developcircumstances where I would
develop same sex attraction,then I need to own it.
I need to say Hi, I'm Ali, Ihave same sex attraction.

(21:26):
I can't run away from myreality and I think that moment
of trust, of just saying it'sokay for me to be vulnerable,
it's okay for me to say thetruth, it's okay to bare my soul
in front of this person, Ithink that first step was very,
very healing, which is why now Ican, I'm speaking in front of

(21:48):
you, I'm speaking publicly, ofcourse, very brief uh, but it
was because I had realized that.
You know what it's in time, Irealized it.
It's not my fault just justbecause I have the attraction
isn't isn't my fault.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
So that was the first door.
So if you can explain now whatthe healing journey looks like
now.
So you cry the cat's out thebag, yes, you're owning your
circumstances, your same-sexattraction, and then now you

(22:25):
start moving towards in yourwritings kind of a taqwa-centric
approach.
Yes, being God approach.
Yes, being God-conscious.
Yes, and making a distinctionbetween the desire and
identifying with it.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
And how to navigate that space from a Allah-centric
perspective.
So that's the first door.
Open the other doors for us now.
What's the journey like?

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, us now.
What was?
What's the journey like?
Yeah, so I mean, I started.
So I was 23 when I, you know,kind of sought help from the
counselor and then I startedresearching on homosexuality.

(23:08):
I came across this book byjoseph nicolosi which is called
reparative therapy for the malehomosexuality.
I read it and I was like, oh,my God, this is me.
This guy is describing me likeI like covering up, I, uh, I
have, uh, an overbearing motherand a distant father, you know.
And uh, I was just reading itand I was like, oh, this, this
describes me to the T?
Uh, in terms of um, of distantfather, finding shame in having

(23:35):
the attraction and then usingsexual enablement as a way to
get out of it, that circle whereI'm like, okay, I'm shamed, oh,
what's pornography?
So I feel better.
And then I'm stuck in thatcycle, that shame, or I'm
thinking that the pornography isgoing to make me feel better,
because that's how I've learnedto connect with vulnerability.

(23:57):
I want to see men as vulnerable.
I'm not seeing, I'm seeingthese as macho men and they
don't have hearts right.
So when I read that and I waslike, oh, there's a science to
it.
Before that it was like all theworld saying you're born this
way or you go.
I went to the GP here and theysaid there's not much we can do.

(24:22):
This is you, and I refused tobecause I always had faith in
Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala.
So I refused to believe thatGod would give me something and
then punish me for it, with menot having any control over it.

(24:44):
You know it wasn't something.
Yes, I watched a pornography.
Yes, that was sinful, but thedesires themselves, they were
not sinful.
I did not choose to have theupbringing or whatever situation
that I grew up in.
So part of me was challengingAllah, challenging my faith, and

(25:07):
saying you know what.
You need to help me in this,god.
You need to help me because Idon't know, and at that time
there wasn't a lot of supportfrom Muslims, there was nothing
right.
I had the understanding I sawthe lectures that it was okay.
There's a difference between thefeeling and the identity.

(25:28):
Right, which is really reallygood, which is a fantastic
concept, which is saying, justbecause I feel something isn't,
I am something right, and whatyou mentioned earlier with the
West it has.
We use the word gay and thatmeans feeling, behavior and
identity.
So all three of these thingsare jam-packed into one word and

(25:51):
in Islam, and the Quranspecifically, only talks about
act, right?
It says لتتون الرجال you aregoing.
It's explicit.
It never, ever mentions thefeeling, right, even when it
says this is something you'veمَا سَبَكُمْ أَهْدٍ مِنْ عَالَم.

(26:11):
When it says this is somethingyou've ما سبقكم أحد من العالمين.
This is something that none haddone.
It was the act.
They might have been people whofelt attracted that way, but
the Quran says that act ofلِوَات anal penetration
basically that's what it'ssaying that was only done at
that time, right?
So what happened at Lut's timewas an attraction.

(26:33):
They used a behavior to enactthat attraction.
That attraction could have beenthere before, right?
And at the time I didn't knowArabic, so I used to read it and
used to just think God hatesgay people, right?
So it took me a while that Iread the verses and my whole

(26:54):
approach now is the Quran.
The Quran has such beauty, suchhidden messages and, inshallah,
I hope to write about this oneday.
There's so much you know.
I could discuss about the Quran, how the Quran had really
practical steps, but it wasexactly that the door to healing
was when I realized that Godhad made it a different identity

(27:19):
.
Okay, so I can still be Muslimand have same-sex attraction,
but there was a room for me inIslam.
But then the next question washow do I get married?
I have the attraction, how do Imanage it?
Fine, I know that this is atest.
How do I manage it?
And there was where it wassilence, yes, so explain that.

(27:40):
So I used to go to Sheikh andhe used to say what should I do?
And they had different you knowkind of techniques.
So why don't you?
Why don't you try?
You know, kind of havingspeaking to women, I'm going to
say my problem isn't really withwomen, it's more with men.
And I couldn't find a placewhich could understand.

(28:03):
You know what's the practicalway for me to get out of
same-sex attraction, way for meto get out of same-sex
attraction.
I attended this workshop.
This was done by called PeopleCan Change at the Nine.
They're a faith-firmingorganization.
It was called Journey intoManhood and subhanAllah.
I was in Bristol at the timeand this is an American company.

(28:26):
And they said their nextworkshop is in southwest England
.
And I'm thinking hang on, thisis an American company, how are
they here?
And this was recommended byJoseph Nicolosi, the guy, the
book who I had read.
So it was an ishara, right.
So it was a clear ishara.
You need to go there and yeah.
So I said, ok, I'm going toregister to this.

(28:50):
And I did that workshop and forthe first time in my life I saw
people who had same-sexattraction.
Now they were married, they hadchildren and they had gone
through it right, and this wasmostly Christians who were doing
the work right, and I was likesubhanAllah, you know, allah has
blessed the Christian communityin the work that they're doing.

(29:12):
And what was the healing inthat?
The healing part was oh, I canhave the attraction, but I can
still have the brotherhood and Ican learn to be with the women.
It's not like the attraction isgoing to come like this.
You know, we're a verydesire-centric world.
So we say Learn to be with awoman.

(29:32):
It's not like the attraction isgoing to come like this.
We're a very desire-centricworld.
So we say, okay, I'm same-sexattracted, but I need to grow
opposite-sex attraction becausewe're looking at it from a frame
of reference of desire.
But when we look at it from aframe of reference of God
instead of a frame of referenceof desire, we say well, god's
going to hold my hand in this.
If I have same-sex attraction,he's going to hold my hand to

(29:54):
show me and bring me.
We say Ahdina Saratul Mustaqeem, every time in prayer.
What does that mean?
That means he is going to holdmy hand, he's going to take me
out of it.
So I had to have tawakkul, and Ihad tawakkul in Allah from a
very, very young age, because Iwas like you know what?
This is haqq?
You know, I know this is haqq.
If somebody shows me a haqqbetter than Islam, I will follow

(30:17):
it.
I had a surety.
You know, I had my.
I came from a very religiousfamily, right?
So I was assured.
But God tested me with mysexuality.
He was going to say is he goingto come to me?
I'm going to give him something.
Is he going to come to me?
So I said you know what theseChristians?
They're onto something, right,they're onto something.

(30:38):
And when I saw the work and Iwas like you know what?
This doesn't exist in theMuslim community I was so angry,
so angry.
It's like we have the best ofcreation, we have Prophet
Muhammad.
You know what are we doing?
What are we doing?
Why aren't we doing this work?
Why aren't we vulnerable andsaying you know what I have this

(31:02):
sin?
Why aren't we going up?
And so I just felt that youknow, well, let's do this work,
let's just work on myself.
But I had a calling from thatday to do something for the
Muslim community, because I waslike I'm in the West, I'm in the
UK, I have all these facilities, you know, and I'm finding it

(31:25):
difficult.
If I'm finding it difficult,what about the other people?
You know I'd left Pakistan, I'dleft that culture where it was
really difficult to get help.
I was in England now.
So I'm thinking, okay, I'm in amore educated place, maybe I
can get help.
I was so angry at the communityright.
The doors for healing thatopened up for me was just

(31:46):
because I've sexualizedsomething doesn't make me any
less masculine, right?
Just because an attachment hasbecome sexualized, it doesn't
mean I'm not a man anymore,right?
Just means I've found a copingmechanism.
God showed to me I didn't havementorship when I was growing up
.
I really needed male mentorship.

(32:07):
So after that workshop, I joinedBritish Military Fitness and
this is like ex-army people whotrain you.
And I threw up on the firstlesson and the guy was like I
put money that this guy is notgoing to come back.
And I came back and he was like, oh my God, you've come back.
And I was like you don't knowhow determined I'm going to be.

(32:28):
And I discovered I was good atrunning because, again, I had
never done it.
Nobody pushed me towards it.
I had never challenged my body.
I didn't have a coach who wassaying, no, your body's fine,
you'll be able to do it.
So I needed to hold myself andsay it's okay, the approach that

(32:49):
I take is a self-compassionapproach.
I needed to have a lot ofcompassion on myself.
I hated myself.
I, like I said before, I didn'tlike myself.
A lot of it was self-compassion.
It's okay, I have theattraction.
Yeah, I'm not perfect.
You know, I slip up sometimes.
It's's okay, keep getting backup.

(33:09):
You know, in the story of Lutthey say don't look back.
It's a great metaphor Don'tlook back, just keep going.
So I said, ya, allah, just keep, hold my hand, we keep going.
So the doors of healing wasmentorship.
I needed to have a safecontainer, a brotherhood, and

(33:29):
there was only one person that Ineeded to worry about and that
was Allah, because he would takemy affairs in his hand, if I
trusted him blindly and I saidyou know what?
I don't know what the next wayis if someone's gonna marry me
or something, but you gave methis, you're gonna get me out of
it, right?
Um?
So I had that, that trust inallah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and

(33:53):
that is what lute says.
Lute alayhi salam, he says, hesay he never mentions, even when
he says right or um, the wholeconcept is purity, it's taqwa,
it's not heterosexuality, thathe's pulling them towards the
women.
He's saying what is somethingwhich is pure, something which

(34:17):
is god-centric?
Right, he calls them towardstaqwa.
He doesn't call them towardsbeing straight.
This is really really important, right?
So I was understanding.
Ah, okay, so the whole point ofus is to have taqwa, and this
is one of my journeys towardstaqwa.
Lut alayhi salam is a journeytowards taqwa and that's what's
wanted.

(34:37):
So God doesn't care about mysame-sex attraction.
He doesn't care.
He's saying I've given you thesame-sex attraction as a test,
but will you still obey me whileyou still have that attraction?
That is what he's testing me.
He's not saying I'm disgustingbecause I have the same sex
attraction.
He's saying look, there was anattachment and you've sexualized

(34:57):
that attachment and that's allthat's happened.
It doesn't mean I'm any less ofa man.
It doesn't mean that I'mdifferent.
It just means that in my wayfor taqwa, god will test me with
my sexuality.
In Surah Al-Ankabut, where theysay Do we really think that we

(35:21):
can have the covenant with Allahand that Allah is not going to
test us?
No, he is going to test us andminju and poverty and things.
No, he is going to test us andMinju and you know, with poverty
and things.
Well, I was tested by mysexuality and then, once I had
that realization that the SSAwasn't the problem.
The problem was how do I starttrusting Allah?

(35:45):
And then Allah started puttingthe things ahead of me.
Allah, and then Allah startedputting the things ahead of me.
There's so many miracles.
I can just tell you where.
I would just pray and God wouldanswer it, or God would bring
somebody in my life, or you know, I think the biggest test was
for me was understanding thatGod wanted to speak to me, you

(36:07):
know, and he wanted me tostruggle with this.
And then, at some point, Iwanted to speak to me, you know,
and he wanted me to strugglewith this.
And then at some point I wantedto go public because I just
felt nobody else in thecommunity was doing it I, you
know.
You can Google my name now andmy story comes up.
I don't think that's what Iwould have chosen when I was
younger.
And it's like oh, what do youwant to grow up when you're

(36:28):
older?
Oh, I want to be the personwho's known for same-sex
attraction.
I don't think I had that in mymind, but I was like you know
what, if God wants me to do thisand I'm getting a clear message
that God wants me to do it, doit.
You know who am I?
I'm nothing.
You know I'm nothing.

(36:52):
Then do it.
And I did a podcast similar tothis, where I outed myself to
the community and, alhamdulillah, things have been things have
built on since then.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Wow, it's interesting .
You said that Allah is notreally judging the fact that you
have the same sex attraction.
The desire, yes, and what cameto my mind was, if Allah judged
us on our internal desires, we'dall be finished.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Oh yeah, we'd all be finished, bro, yes yeah, on
guard is more than media.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's dawah, defense and duty.
In an age of confusion, wespeak truth for the sake of
Allah.
If you believe this is a causeworthy of reward in this life
and the next, then become aGuardian, stand with us and be
written among those who strove.
Click below to find out moreand subscribe to On Guard
wherever you get your podcasts.

(37:38):
And now back to the episode yes, yeah.
So this is great.
So what I want to do is let'sfocus on the brotherhood aspect.
What role did brotherhood andmaybe new masculine role models
have to play in your healingprocess?

Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yes, very fantastic question.
Again, I love the Quran becausethe Quran says وَأَخُوَهُمْ
لُوتُ.
It's so important, all thesecrets there, it's all in the
Quran.
It says, says and their brother, loot in me like an Rasul.
And Amin, right, trust me, I'myour bro, trust me, wow.
So then he's saying oh, I'm,I'm your brother.

(38:21):
Why is he saying that?
Because same-sex attraction isbuilt on the concept that this
man, he's, he's better some wayfor me.
Either he has muscles, he hasconfidence, something you cannot
have attraction withoutdifferential right.
There needs to be a difference.

(38:41):
So if I'm like, oh, I reallywant to be that man, or actually
, with same-sex attraction, Iwant to be affirmed by that man,
I want that man to recognize me.
Now, men with opposite same-sexattraction, they have the same
thing.
If there's somebody who'sattractive or good, they want to
get you know, they want thatperson to notice them.
The only difference with menwith same-sex attraction is

(39:04):
they've sexualized it, sothey're like I want his
attention, but I want the sexualrelease as well.
So the Prophet had the Day ofBrotherhood, you know, between
the Ansar and Muhajirun, and theconcept of brotherhood in Islam

(39:24):
is so deep, you know, even YomAl-Jum jumah, in getting your
brothers together.
Our whole religion is built onthe concept of, of brotherhood,
you know.
And that's because we we aren'tcreators which are meant to be
alone.
We're meant to be, uh, in aunit.

(39:44):
We're meant to be in acongregation, we're meant to be
an ummah, right, we're meant tohave this.
What you said, sense ofbelonging.
Sense of belonging is so, soimportant.
Where do I belong, you know?
Who do I?
When we say إِنَّا لِلَّهِوَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ,
okay, I know I'm from Allah, butI'm back to him, but while I'm

(40:05):
identity, when we say, callyourself Muslim, well, what does
that mean?
What does that identity mean?
And for me, I understood thatthat meant a brotherhood.
Now, for me, when I did thejourney into manhood, I had a
circle of brotherhood men whohad same-sex attraction, who I

(40:26):
could share with.
Right, it's the same with theLGBTQ community.
They say, oh, these people aregay, they share with us, they
have something common, they havea brotherhood.
So I had to first work on thebrotherhood with men with
same-sex attraction.
Then one of my works was thenokay, I now need to tell people
who are not same-sex attracted,right, need to tell somebody

(40:48):
who's opposite-sex attracted andsay you know I have this, are
you still going to be friendswith me?
And I did that with my friends.
I had friends.
I had Muslim friends, I hadfriends from other faiths.
And I said you know, this iswhat I'm struggling with.
So I opened up with thatbrotherhood and then once I did
workshops where I told men whoweren't same-sex attracted.
That helped me to say you know,I don't need to be in this

(41:11):
cocoon of recovery.
You know, it's very easy inrecovery to just be in that
cocoon of recovery.
So I said, no, I'm gonna, I'mgonna step out and I'm gonna say
I'm gonna tell my reality to toother people.
So it's important to havefriends who have same-sex
attraction, but also friends whodon't have same-sex attraction,
so that you feel like we're notexcluded, which is what the

(41:36):
West does.
The West says you're straight,you're LGBTQ or you don't have
opposite-sex attraction.
Go away, right, or you're thisidentity.
Islam isn't like that.
Islam says come, don't care.
Don't care If you're same-sexattracted, whatever attracted.
Come, you're a brother.
Yeah, you have that concept ofbrotherhood.
So when I found, when I spoke tomy friends and they were like,

(41:59):
oh, ali, that's fine, you couldhave told my best friend of 20
years, he said why didn't youtell me earlier?
And I was like I'm so sorry,right, and I had shame.
I could not tell him.
Right, it took trust for me tolike myself.
Once I was able to like myself,then I could tell my friends,
then I could trust other people,once I was not disgusted with

(42:21):
myself, I could then open myselfup to brotherhood.
And now the brotherhood is so,so important, because that's
what carries me.
I have my whenever I'mstruggling, whenever, you know,
shaitaan comes to me orsomething.
I have people who I can contactand say I'm having a difficult
time, I can lean on on mybrothers.

(42:42):
What I realized behind theattraction was I just needed
connection.
It wasn't the sex I was lookingfor, it was the connection.
Alhamdulillah, I never reachedthat state where I actually did
the amal, but I could have.
I reached some places where Icould have, but each time that I
acted out or I'd run apps orI'd be speaking to someone, I

(43:05):
just wanted a friend.
I didn't really want the sex,that wasn't why I was doing it.
I just wanted a friend.
I didn't really want the sex,that wasn't why I was doing it.
I just wanted someone to say,oh, he has same-sex attraction,
I have same-sex attraction aswell.
I just wanted brotherhood,someone that would sit with me,
someone who wouldn't bedisgusted by me ties back to the

(43:33):
Islamic concept of in yourmosque inviting other people.
Right, having that broadersense of brotherhood.
Whereas the Western concept ofLGBTQ is very divisive because
it's like everybody oh, you're aminority there, you know, and
they've combined this minority,which are different LGB is
sexual and T is gender.
So they say, oh, you're free,but you're not free.
Islam gives you freedom,because Islam says you know what

(43:56):
the desire doesn't matter, it'swhat you do with it.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
You're not shackled, you're not enslaved by your
desires.
I mean, even Allah makes thisclear.
Have you not seen the one whotakes his own desires as his
Lord?
And I wrote an essay on thefive false kind of theological
philosophical assumptions of theLGBTQ plus movement, and one of

(44:23):
them is that they have a falseassumption that you should
identify with your desire.
Yes, but Islam says we shouldidentify I mean, you've
mentioned it by extension aswell you identify with the fact
that you're an Abid, that you'rea worshipper of Allah SWT, you
want to be a person of Taqwa,and that is facilitated by your
environment of brotherhood.
Yes, that is actually quite key.
Yes, because that the wholekind of you know this is the

(44:44):
homosexual group or the LGBTgroup or whatever the case may
be.
That is a construct thatthey're creating absolutely,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
Yeah, my identity is within God.
I'm an uh, you know, maybe I'man abd, I don't know, because
you know abd is uh, we sayMuhammad Abdullah, right.
So we say the highest stationis abd, so maybe I can be, be an
ab to some of the already abswhich are, which are there.
But you're absolutely right, itis, you know, kind of having

(45:15):
the sense that I'm nothing,getting rid of the ana and
saying that actually I'm nothing.
If God uses me as a vessel, asa medium, as a bridge for people
, then you're lucky.
You're very, very lucky thatGod has chosen you as a bridge
for this.

(45:35):
But the glory is to Allah,subhanahu wa ta'ala.
Right, and it took me a whilefor that ana to kill that ana,
right?
So, like, when I went intocounseling, it was killing that
ana because it's like, no, I candeal with it that sense of I
that sense of ego, that sense ofabsolutely.
Yeah, and coming to thatidentity where I'm realizing,

(45:57):
yes, I have control over somethings, but some things I don't
have control over and I have tosurrender that to Allah
subhanahu wa ta'ala.
There'll be things which Ican't control in my life and I
think you know, when you plansomething and things don't
happen the way that you want itto, and then you realize there's
a creator right that there is.

(46:19):
You wanted things to go acertain way.
No, there's a creator.
You need to align yourself, youneed to listen to that voice.
What, what is he wanting withme?
That was the biggest question.
I said allah, what do you wantfrom me?
Do you want me to be celibate?
Maybe that's what you want fromme.
Do you want me to get married?
What do you want?
But I had, I had a very clearindication that god said no,

(46:41):
speak up.
Because whenever I used to go,the topic of ssa used to come.
Like I was in the manchestercommunity, alhamdulillah, I've
been in different Muslimorganizations.
I've been in the executivecommittee of organizations and I
felt so bad that I wasn'tspeaking about this.
I had a lot of healing thatAllah had done.

(47:03):
I'm not the best.
My story isn't the best story.
I'm not a know-it-all right I'mnot, but I felt that nobody is
doing it, nobody is speaking upagainst this.
You know, and credit to theChristian community where it's
due.
They have like umpteenorganizations which are doing
this, looked at our ummah, saidwhat are we doing?

(47:24):
I was so ashamed, so ashamed.
Nothing's happening.
So I said you know what, let'sdo it.
You know like, let's do it,let's start.
We started and I knew that Ihave to share my story.
First.
I knew I had.
I did the podcast, one of thefirst podcasts I did.

(47:44):
It was only audio and I said novideo.
And they said why.
I said you know what I wantpeople to see.
I want people to see that thereare people like this in the
ummah.
We, we don't want it.
I didn't want my same sexattraction, but I understood
that God gave it to me so that Iwould understand my nafs.
I would understand that it wasa sexualized attachment and that

(48:08):
other people have sexualizedattachment as well.
You know opposite sex attractedpeople have sexualized
attachment as well.
And then I'm part of.
You know, I'm not different.
And I had to deliver thismessage to people because this
world, it says you're gay,you're inherently different.
You're inherently differentfrom everybody else.

(48:30):
And I had to break thisidentity paradigm because it's
so corrosive.
It's so corrosive because Iused to say how am I going to
get married?
I'm gay, you know, I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna get aroused
.
How is that gonna happen?
I didn't know that in mymarriage it takes time to love
someone, right, it takes timefor that thing to happen.
But I was told no, you'd neverbe able to have arousal because,

(48:53):
because you're that I was fedlies, right.
So I said no, this is lieswhich are destroying people's
lives, this is destroyinglegacies of people to saying you
, you can't get married, youwon't have children, you know.
So I felt that, you know, theShaitaan is very strong on this
one and I needed to speak up andsay no.

(49:14):
Throw this paradigm which saysoh, because I have an attraction
now, I will have thatattraction for the rest of my
life.
No, allah brings change, allahchanges.
Allah brings people in yourlife.
Which says you know what?
What I'll work with you, it'sokay, I like you, I don't care
about your same-sex attraction,allah.

(49:42):
In the Surah Ash-Shura, he saysand do you go above all people,
you go to men above all of thewords وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلْقَكُمْ
مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ.
This is so beautiful, this ayah.
It says and you leave,تَذَرُونَ, you leave what God
created for you.

(50:03):
Who is he addressing?
He's not addressing thestraight people here.
He's saying you, you knowpeople of loot, you're going to
them, above all people you'regoing.
And what God created for you.
So he's saying, at least for me, it's like saying you, same-sex
attracted people.

(50:23):
God has already created spousesfor you.
God has already created peoplewho are going to understand that
, who are going to understandthat there's, you know,
understand your reality.
Why do you think that God isheedless of what you're
experiencing?
Wow, and when I and this wasonly after like, there's so much
like this.
I want to write a book aboutthis, about the Quran and how

(50:45):
practical it is right, and, andso I said, oh, if God is going
to promise me a spouse, then whyshould I worry, right?
And so I just gave, Isurrendered, I surrendered to
Allah and I said when that pointcomes and I was looking, of
course I was looking, I wasdoing the.
You know, وَالْأَصَرِ, إِنَّلاالذين آمنوا وآمنوا الصالحات.

(51:07):
And it says وَتَوَاسُوابِالْحَقِّ, وَتَوَاسُوا
بِالصَّبَرِ.
It means I need to do the amal,but I need to have sabr because
50% is me, 50% is God.
Right, وَتَوَاسُوا, act out.
But I know that's going to be atemporary.
Yes, even now I have the samesex attraction.

(51:30):
It would feel amazing to actout.
But is that a long-term answer?
No, it's not a long-term answer.
Do I feel that I'd be happyafter it?
I won't.
I also think that even if theQuran wasn't there and Allah
hadn't said it, I just feelthere's a difference between
love and lust.
Right, I?
I experience it as lust.

(51:52):
I don't experience it as love.
I don't love that man.
I know some, some men withsame-sex attraction do have a
romantic attraction, but for meit was lustful, it was, and I
could differentiate betweenshahwa and hub, right.
So it was very clear for methat if I went to the LGBTQ
route, I'd be promiscuous, Iwouldn't be happy, because it's

(52:14):
lustful and that's what the wordQuran uses.
It says you go to men atatunamin shahwa.
So, again, the Quran is amazing.
When I dig deeper into it,there were so many answers.
Okay, it's shahwa then.
If it's shahwa, then allah isgoing to help me build the love

(52:38):
with my spouse.
Because it says alif, alif,baynakum or baynakum, muwadda
right, the word is muwadda, forexample.
So I said you know, god's goingto take me from shahwa to
muwaddah and alif, so that he'sgoing to help me in that process
.
And that's why what Lut alayhisalam says is taqwa right,
because he says you know what,hold on to Allah, subhanahu wa

(53:01):
ta'ala, he will take you out.
And I think the way that wehave understood same-sex
attraction is, and the way I hadit was oh God, give me
everything, just don't give methat right.
That's what everybody says.
Right, give me everything,don't give me same-sex
attraction, because it's soshameful.
Right, but that's a constructthat we've created for ourselves

(53:24):
right.
So when I said, okay, thesociety is ashamed, but Allah is
not shamed, you know, there's averse in Surah Al-Ahzab where
God says, okay, they might beafraid, but Allah is not shy of

(53:44):
the truth.
So I was like you know what?
If Allah doesn't have a problemwith my same-sex attraction,
I'm going to be loud and I'mgoing to speak up about it
Because you know it's going tohelp people to say other people
who have same-sex attraction tosay, oh, I don't need to be
ashamed anymore, I don't need tobe a minority anymore, I don't
need to call myself a minority,I'm just like everybody else and

(54:11):
just because I have a differentdesire doesn't make me
inherently different.
So I think this whole conceptof dividing people, you know,
this whole concept of identityhas we've lost generations which
thought I can, never, I wouldnever be able to have a
relationship, or nobody willever marry me, or nobody will
ever do this.

(54:31):
This is all shaitan, nobodywill marry you, and so on.
This is very powerful.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
And the point about having that shahwa, having that
blameworthy desire we all haveblameworthy desires.
The test is if you're going toact upon them or not.
Yes, and when you talked aboutbrotherhood, we should have this
type of brotherhood thateveryone's, you know.
It's not a caravan of despair,as Rumi says.
Right, yeah, like you inviteeveryone in and you, you

(55:01):
optimize them and you and youelevate them.
Look at the young man who wentto the Prophet, who had a
blameworthy desire.
He said let me allow me to dozina.
Yes, right.
And the Prophet there's a lotto unpack from a
psycho-spiritual perspective.
The young man was comfortableto speak to the Prophet.
Yeah, and we need to create abrotherhood where brothers with

(55:22):
same-sex attraction can becomfortable to speak to brothers
.
Right, and the Prophet didn'tjust use abstract knowledge and
threw it at the young man.
No, it's haram, full stop.
No, what did he do?
He empathized.
He understood the context, hewanted.
He had an Allah-centric goalfor that human being.
He wanted to optimize him.
So he used the knowledge andapplied it in a perfect way to

(55:45):
optimize the individual and hesaid well, what about your
mother and your sister?
And so on and so forth?
Create that empathy.
Then after what do you do?
He put his hand on his heart.
He made dua for him.
Right, yeah, beautiful,profound right.
We need to be like this.
It reminds me of a story.
It's a personal experienceactually.
I mean, I was very young, Ijust became muslim, like two or
three years, and there was somewith the same sex attraction.

(56:07):
I think he liked me, not inthat sense, but in the sense of
Hamza's easy going.
Yeah.
He's not judging me right, he'sgiving me space and we used to
sit in his car and just discussthis particular issue.
He was actually Someone whoactually Practised, he did the
amal, yeah, and we just unpackedand I was just there for him.
I was like, well, let's get Getthe best out of your situation.
To cut a long story short, hegot married.

(56:28):
He's got kids, subhanallah.
Now I didn't even say much, bythe way, I'm not even qualified.
I'm not saying that I didsomething special, but I think
what was important and thelessons I'm learning here is
just to be there for yourbrother.
Be there for your brother andhe's got a blameworthy desire
he's acted upon.
Have I acted on my blameworthydesires before?

(56:51):
Absolutely, have most Muslims.
Absolutely.
It's the human condition.
Our job is to elevate eachother and to use the correct
language and brotherhood andsocial grouping to actually
optimize each other.
Now what I want to unpack ismaybe two final questions.
So I'm assuming you said youhad children, right, yes?

(57:11):
And you're, you have, you're,you're married, right, yes, okay
.
So how's that?
How's it going?
I, yes, do you have well-being?
Because a lot of, a lot ofpeople's the secular, lgbtq plus
ideologues would say he'sharming himself, he's not happy,
he doesn't have well-being,this, that and the other.
So explain, if you can.
You know, obviously you don'thave to say too much if you

(57:33):
don't want to say much, butwhat's your state now?
What's your situation?
How's life?

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yes, absolutely, and what you mentioned was so
beautiful.
I want to start with that wherethe story where you've helped
your person in university, beingthat, listening
alhamdulillahillah, he foundthat he could speak to you,
which is amazing.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't university.
He was someone who was actuallyconnected to an Islamic dawah
group.
He was a writer, very goodwriter as well but he had this
side to his life as well, and Ithink he recognized in me that
we were able to have thatconversation make him feel
comfortable.
Which I forgot to mention isinteresting because Lut alayhi
salam technically offers hisdaughters to the people of Lut.
Yes, people miss this.

(58:15):
Yes, because people miss thepsychological, spiritual element
of these stories.
Yes, because the Anbiya they'relike Ya Qawmi O my people.
It's a very intimate, intimate,very kind of loving approach to
his people, like I'm concernedfor you, to the point where he
offered the women, folk whichcould include his daughters yes

(58:38):
how powerful is that?
Yeah, I'm willing to give myown yes, which we need in our
communities, right?

Speaker 1 (58:45):
anyway, sorry, go talk to me about your situation
so I think you you dropped somany golden nuggets there where
the prophet was a counselor.
I was trying to catch up withyou you've thrown this little
gold here yeah we'remulti-millionaires now yes,
exactly yeah intellectual levelso, uh, I mean touch.
You mentioned touch.

(59:05):
The prophet touched him right,and touch is a healing part in
the journey, right?
So, especially men withsame-sex attraction, they need
healthy touch, they need thought.
So one of the big doors for mein my healing was healthy male
touch, because when I grew up Idid not have, or I don't have,

(59:27):
recollections, and even thoughmy father did hug me many times,
but I don't have recollectionsof it.
So I needed someone to say, ohhey, you, your body is okay,
just touch you.
And we have.
The prophet was used to kissHassan and Hussain and Arabs
would be like, oh, this isdisgusting, what are you doing?
And he's teaching you.

(59:47):
No, that physical touch thatyou're going to give your child
is going to preventsexualization later on where
they're trying to get that touchfrom somewhere else.
So big healing part was megetting hugs.
Or how do we get healthyfatherly touch, brotherlyly

(01:00:08):
touch, right in this work?
So just wanted to, you know,kind of point that out from the
Hadith that you mentioned.
Where am I now?
Marriage was you know, I thinkthe biggest thing that people
fear in marriage is what'shappened on the first night,

(01:00:28):
right, I'm not going to get itup's, the arousal's not going to
happen, right?
So, and what I?
What?
I had already spoken to my wifebefore the marriage.
I had told her and I given her,and we have this.
Um, there's steps in revealingit, which I help people into how
to reveal to your spouse beforemarriage.

(01:00:49):
Because if someone had told meafter marriage they had
something like SSA, I would havefelt that it was too much,
right, why didn't you tell mebefore?
So I had told her before.
I had told her that I wouldprobably go public at this point
as well.
So I want to give a shout-outto her, to my family.
If it wasn't for their support,I wouldn't be able to do this.

(01:01:11):
It is through their trust andthrough their support that I
made, because it's not just me,it's my family.
When you publicize yourself,then you're going to get eyes.
So I told her before gettingmarried that, look, I'm in a

(01:01:33):
better place now, the attractionI need to work on.
So in the first year I'll needto go slow, I'll need to see.
You know, I would say mostconservative Muslims have never
had a sexual experience beforemarriage, right?
So for all of us, it's like wedon't know what's going on right
.
So I had, you know, took itstep by step, took it slow, and

(01:01:58):
there was a journey where Iunderstood what she liked, what
I liked, you know, and it took ayear.
It took me a year for me to becomfortable in that.
And I think that, again, thistype of knowledge, this type of
talk, my elder brother actuallyhe gave that to me so he was
like, make sure you do this andthat.
Again, this type of preparingsomebody who's getting married,

(01:02:23):
preparing it's very, veryimportant so they know what
intimacy is, and kind of thesediscussions.
Alhamdulillah, we have a lot ofgood courses now which repair
youth for marriage.
And the first year was difficult.
It was difficult.
There was arguments.
She's come from Pakistan, right, I never initially thought I'd

(01:02:46):
marry someone from Pakistan justbecause I didn't want them to
leave their family and come here, even though I'm Pakistani.
But God had chosen.
Like, the first time I told herabout the same-sex attraction,
her response was I wantedsomeone special and you're
special.
And I was like hang on, hang on, you've not listened to what

(01:03:07):
I've said.
And I was like subhanAllah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
That is so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
And I said to her later on like why did you say
that?
And she said you know what Godhad just put peace.
He put Sakina in my heart atthat time where I was thinking
because the time that I hadchosen was she was sharing
something deep about her.
So she was sharing her trauma.
She was sharing.
So I was like you know what?
This is the right time she'ssharing about herself.

(01:03:32):
Let me share about myself.
It wasn't in our first meeting.
It was our third face-to-facemeeting because she was in
Pakistan and I was in UK andused to video call.
So I'd set an intentional timeand intentional space.
I had said I didn't say I wasgay, I said I had.
I developed these feelings whenI was younger and this led to

(01:03:54):
me feeling different than I wasattracted.
You know it's very importantwhen you share the SSA, you
don't say I'm gay.
You know that's not how you doit.
You build that up to the story,to why the attractions there.
I gave her the opportunity totell others because I didn't
want her to hold it.
Oh, my God, my potential spousehas said me I didn't want her

(01:04:16):
to hold it.
She didn't decide to tellpeople, but I gave her the
opportunity to do that.
So she knew 100% what wascoming into me.
And we both are veryGod-centric, right?
That's what kind of I when I,the first thing I look for is
taqwa, right, and taqwa I lookat, not.

(01:04:39):
Is he not?
Just?
Is she praying?
Of course you know praying,fasting, but is she able to
contain me If I share somethingwith her?
How is her response?
Is she judgmental?
Does she have empathy?
Does she have rahmah?
You know?
And she did right.
So then I was like this is aclear.
I know she fasted, I know shecomes from a good family.

(01:04:59):
But when she had that rahmahand she said, no, you know, like
this is this, this is okay.
I just said you don't know whatyou're doing, do istikhara
right.
Because I was like you don'tknow what you're saying.
And she did the istikhara.
And the istikhara came out, theverse said and we have given
you the best of things, it wassomething very, very good verse.
So she said I have no doubts, Ihave no shak, let's go ahead.

(01:05:20):
Wow and um, from from that dayon, because she trusted in me,
um, when we had our first child,when we were doing our we, we
in the first attempt right andwe want our second child.
First attempt because god hadmade it so easy.
There are other things in lifewhich have been difficult for us

(01:05:41):
and things, but whenever thethings which have to do with
this work s SSA, or somethingGod has made it so easy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Bro, this is so inspirational it's unbelievable.
Honestly, I nearly broke down,especially your wife's response
about you being special.
Now I'm going to try to reframeit slightly, because we have a
very kind of toxic masculinespace on the online world.
I don't mean it from a liberal,feminist perspective, I mean it
from generally.
We don't know how to navigatethe space as muslims.

(01:06:13):
What she probably saw in you wasa real man, bro, because a real
man deals with his nafs.
Yeah, now we have so-calledrole models.
They can't deal with their nafs.
They're not real men.
Yeah, you are the masculinerole model, bro.
I'm not saying that's toplacate you.
Yeah, sure, I actually meanthat.
I mean this echoes a lot ofthings that I say elsewhere.

(01:06:34):
Anyway, a real man is the onewho could bench press his ego,
right.
A real man is the one who coulddeal with his desires, and she
probably saw that in you, bro,right, and she saw where that
may lead her in terms of yourfamily, because you know, know,
she saw that great potentialbecause you're able to deal with
your nafs, your, your, yourshahawat, your blameworthy

(01:06:56):
desires.
Most men heterosexual men, ifyou want to use that term still
don't know how to deal with theblameworthy desires, bro.
This is why it's quite heroicthis.
This is like a heroic hero.
Heroic, yeah, this is quitebrave and it's very manly.
This is a Manly conversation.
You're telling the world howyou deal with your Blame, with

(01:07:18):
your desires.
Most men still don't know how todo that.
Jazakallah.
I mean, wow, allah has blessedyou.
Allah has blessed you, man, andI know it's.
You know there's ups and downsin life and there's going to be
Continued tests, but it lookslike you have A very kind of
mature framing and you have agreat family Behind you, man.
Allah bless your family.
So final question, if that'sokay, yes, just for ease.

(01:07:43):
So we want to.
What I mean by ease Is just,you know, concluding it really
well.
So if someone has same-sexattraction, they know some kind
of key steps they can take andwe could give them hope.
So the question here is imaginesomeone comes to you with
same-sex attraction.
What would be the key thingsyou would tell them and maybe
you could end with a statementof hope for them?

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Absolutely so.
We had, you know, peoplelistening and people saying, oh,
this is my story or thisrelates to me.
I think the biggest thing tojust know is you're not alone
and there is a differentnarrative.
So at the moment, what societygives you is two options Be

(01:08:26):
miserable, right, don't tellanyone.
Get married and don't work onit.
Just get married, nobody willknow.
Right.
That's option A, right, andthere's some religiosity to it.
Some people say, oh, allah issatar al-ayyub.
Right, wrong type ofunderstanding of religion, right
.
And then the second option iswell, allah made me this way.

(01:08:49):
You know um, and I didn'tchoose it.
Like I was saying, I didn'tchoose it.
So if I didn't choose it, thenthere's something wrong in
scripture right there'ssomething wrong it.
And when the prophet said, inthe end of times, people would
put their desires over the quranrather than quran over the
desires.
That's the second, second path,right?
So this is the two paths thatpeople see at the moment.

(01:09:11):
I want to say no, there's athird path.
There's a third path which saysyou know what?
I'm out and proud.
I say I have SSA.
Alhamdulillah, I have SSA.
I'm not ashamed about my SSA,because I know that God gave it
to me.
Why would I run away fromsomething that God gave it to me
?
And because of the blessing ofmy SSA, I was able to peak

(01:09:36):
myself, probably in a way whichI you know, because I hated
myself so much.
It allowed me to really go tothe depths of my soul.
You know, and I know, it'sreally difficult for people.
A lot of people have suicidalideation.
They're like oh, anything.
But let be known that I havesame-sex attraction.
But I said, no, the story ofloot is scattered in the Quran,

(01:10:03):
probably like in six chapters,or so why?
Because God is still saying hey, you same-sex attracted person,
we have a home for you, youhave a home for you.
You have a home for you inIslam.
Islam's not going to judge you.
Allah's not going to judge you.
Come, come right and thehealing journey looks with a

(01:10:25):
final decision to trust.
Trust your same-sex brothers.
Whatever has happened, whatevertrauma has happened, whatever
has happened in the past whereyou've disconnected, you've
detached from the same-sex,let's work on that, let's work
on those wounds, let's work onthat trauma, that emotional, you
know.
So when people come to us, thefirst thing that we do is we say

(01:10:49):
firstly, the courage.
You know, it took me 11 years,it took me a long, long time to
go in front of that person andtell us all.
So we honor their courage incoming forward.
The second thing we do is weconnect them to a community.
You know, like what you saidbrotherhood.
So we have a brotherhood whichis interfaith.

(01:11:12):
We have Brothers Roadorganization.
They're interfaith.
We have our strong support,which is the Muslim for us that
we've created.
So you're going to be connectedto group work, where you have
other people who are just likeyou.
There's fantastic initiative byStraight Struggle.
They have a discord group.
There's a podcast now, a WayBeyond the Rainbow.

(01:11:34):
There's so many materials now,alhamdulillah, and they weren't
when I started.
We're doing this so that people, muslims, now, to say you have
a home, we have material for you, you have a community, you want
a one-to-one session, we haveit for you.
And this was my dream.
This was my dream for someonewho was struggling like me can

(01:11:57):
now go in and say oh okay, thisis the resource, this is the
material.
I have an understanding.
We still have work to do, westill have to create a model,
model, a Quranic model, on this,but just know that if you're
watching this and you need thesupport, then it's available and

(01:12:19):
you don't need to make adecision now.
You know a lot of people saywell, I don't know how Ali's
faking it.
You know he's not happy in thismarriage.
Oh, his marriage will end in 10years.
You know it's not.
Well, I could.
What I say to these people was Idid not need an external force
to tell me the differencebetween love and lust, right, I

(01:12:42):
think, as an insan, I can make adifference between lust and
love, and what I was having waslust, it was not love.
So then I said there must be ascientific way of understanding
this.
And there is a scientific way.
There's a psychology behindthis, right, biggest message.
There is a third way, you don'tneed to be ashamed of your

(01:13:05):
same-sex attraction.
It's a reality.
What's behind the attraction isimportant.
I couldn't connect with men Icouldn't connect with.
Let's help you work on that.
When you work on that materialwhich is below the attraction,
you'll find healing in otherplaces of your life.
You'll be assertive.
You'll be.
You said masculine, right.

(01:13:25):
People will say, oh, he'sconfident, he's talking about
his shahawat.
You'll get you'll.
You'll start lacking yourselfbecause everybody needs to look
at their nafs.
There is zulamat in our nafsthat we all need to look into.
You know, I have a lot ofzulamat.
Allah told me hey, you, youneed to talk about your zulamat.
Right, my darknesses.

(01:13:46):
So that's why I'm talking aboutit.
But we all have them.
Everybody has darkness.
Don't be afraid.
Come to Allah, come to him andjust trust that he will bring
you to people.
He will, he'll hold your hand,he'll take you through.
And and just trust.
It just starts with trust.
That's what I'm saying, becauseit's different in me, like an

(01:14:07):
Rasي لَكَنْ رَسُولًا, أَمِينًاأَخُوَهُمْ لُوتُ.
If Lut was not trustworthy, ifhe didn't present, then people
wouldn't have….
And the only reason, by the way, just to end, that the nation
was destroyed was because therewas not one single person that
wanted to change.
We have traditions that sayeven one single person, one

(01:14:28):
single person, would have goneto Lut and said help me, then
God would have not destroyedthat nation, right?
So when I read that, I was like, oh my God, this just reframes
the whole story for me.
So even if one person cameforward and that's why this
ummah is trialed by same-sexattraction because there will be
people from this ummah whichwill say you know what?

(01:14:48):
I'm not going to go that way,I'm going to do jihad and that's
why we're not destroyed,because there are people here
who are saying you know what?
I have the shahwat, but I'mgoing to follow the sunnah of
Lut alayhi salam, I'm going tohave the taqwa of Lut alayhi
salam and carry forward.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Wow, inspirational story, ro.
And carry forward.
Wow, inspirational story, bro.
May Allah bless you.
I think this is going to beimpactful and transformative for
many, many people Men, women,brothers, sisters, muslims,
non-muslims.
Very brave, very courageous andextremely masculine, real
rojula in terms of being able toshow to people how to make a

(01:15:30):
distinction Between the desireblame of the desire and the
action, and unpacking what'sbehind it and having a pathway
to real success, which is tryingto be a person of Taqwa.
Jazakallah Khairul, thank youfor having me Anytime.
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On guard is our stand For truth, for the ummah, for the next

(01:15:54):
generation.
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