Melanie guests on Crime of the Truest Kind podcast with Anngelle Wood to discuss updates in Andy Puglisi's case and new information learned since Have You Seen Andy? and Anngelle released two episodes about Andy's case...
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Based on the HBO Emmy award-winning documentary "Have You Seen Andy?" - haveyouseenandy.com | @haveyouseenandy
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hello everyone, it's Melanie Perkins-McLaughlin, your
host of Open Investigation.
We're so excited to be workinghard on season two.
A little more than a year or soago, Angele Wood, host of Crime
of the Truest Kind, released twoepisodes on her podcast, episode
43 and 44, about Andy Puglisi.
I listened to those episodes andwas so impressed with her work
(00:21):
that I reached out to her.
After season one, OpenInvestigation was released,
Angele said, let's have aninformal conversation about how
it went and any that we mightwant to talk about.
So we did.
And Angel has put that on herCrime of the Truest Kind podcast
and has allowed us to share themas bonus episodes.
This is part one of aconversation that I had with my
(00:42):
good friend, Angel Wood, host ofCrime of the Truest Kind and now
true friend.
Follow Open Investigation,download the show or follow us
on social media.
We really need your support.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
Well, hello.
My name is Angel Wood and thisis Crime of the Truest Kind.
(01:19):
Hello listeners, Angel here.
Earlier this week, I dropped areplay of the two episodes I
recorded back in June of 2023about missing little boy Angelo,
Andy Puglisi.
He vanished without a trace fromthe public pool in Lawrence,
Massachusetts on August 22nd,1976.
(01:41):
Everything was different then,including how the authorities
dealt with a missing child.
I went over a lot of that inthose two episodes, episode 43
and 44.
So please, if you have notlistened to the two prior
episodes about Andy Puglisi fromLawrence, Massachusetts, please
(02:02):
stop here and go back andlisten.
Andy Puglisi's story is not atall what it seems on the
surface.
Yes, he's a little boy.
Who disappeared from a swimmingpool.
He is a little boy who wasgrowing up in the projects.
(02:26):
If you didn't grow up spendingany time in like a housing
project or an apartment complex,there's something kind of
special about it.
There's a certain, I don't know,membership to this unspoken
club.
I did live in an apartmentcomplex for a couple of years.
(02:50):
A vast majority of the kids thatI met while I lived there, their
moms were single moms.
And in the 80s, we werefree-range children, out all the
time.
I say this for a couple ofreasons, not to judge.
Times were tough, moms had towork, kids stayed home, and we
kind of looked out for eachother.
(03:11):
I have a vivid memory of anafternoon.
at that pool where the cool kidlifeguard was playing the radio
each and every time I hear thehuman league don't you want me I
think about that pool there wasone pool for a lot of apartments
in that complex and it wasusually packed kids teenagers
(03:33):
some adults summers were roughand I don't remember having AC
there wasn't a lot of swimminggoing on There were so many kids
in the pool that it was justkind of floating in place and
splashing at each other andplaying games.
We didn't care because we werewith our friends.
These stories often have somepersonal connection.
(03:56):
I grew up in the MerrimackValley of Massachusetts, not far
away from where Andy Puglisilived with his family in the
summer of 1976.
His story is far morecomplicated than it appears.
on the surface.
It's a Pandora's box, a titlethat I borrow from Open
(04:18):
Investigation, one of theepisodes in Melanie Perkins
McLaughlin's eight-part podcastseries that was released this
past September.
I met Melanie through Andy.
You're saying, how did you meeta woman through a little boy
who's been missing for almost 50years?
(04:38):
I researched Andy's case and Iwatched the documentary that
Melanie put decades worth ofwork into to research and write
and direct and produce.
The documentary is called HaveYou Seen Andy?
It's streaming now on HBO Max.
I should add, Melanie won anEmmy for this documentary.
(05:00):
Melanie heard those podcasts,and I guess I did something
right because she reached out tome.
We spoke.
And then we met, and then wetalked about projects.
Melanie was working on a podcastand had been for a number of
years.
I wanted her to produce it, andI wanted her to release it, and
(05:21):
I wanted to help her do that.
And in speaking with Melanieabout Andy Puglisi's case, what
we were able to learn after thedocumentary, Have You Seen
Andy?, was released in 2007,much more information became
available.
Where did that information comefrom?
It came from Melanie digging andresearching.
(05:44):
In the podcast world, or maybemore appropriate to say true
crime world, these creators, airquotes, are often quick to jump
on stories.
A fair amount of them take otherpeople's hard work without
giving them any kind of credit.
They often just behave as thoughthey did all that work on their
own.
(06:06):
And we've seen some of thesesame kinds of creators take a
family story.
I'm saying, make shit up tocreate a sexier narrative.
No case has any proprietaryinformation.
Well, technically, that is true.
If the information is out there,it's free to whomever finds it.
(06:29):
But let me be clear.
The reason why any of us in thisquote-unquote true crime space
know anything about the daysleading up to and the days that
followed Andy Puglisi'sdisappearance, it's all because
of the work that Melanie PerkinsMcLaughlin did.
(06:50):
Andy was her friend.
She knew him.
She spent time with him on theday he disappeared.
Season one of her podcast, OpenInvestigation, is out now, an
eight-part series that startswith Andy Puglisi and his
disappearance and goes, well,way beyond that.
(07:11):
Doing this kind of work can behard.
If you really care about it, youwant to do the right thing.
You don't want to exploitfamilies, and you don't want
other creators to exploitfamilies.
And you don't want to cause anymore trauma than they've already
experienced.
Over time, you get to know thesefamilies.
And if you're anything like me,you get protective.
(07:32):
Andy Puglisi is still missing.
Someone took him.
Someone hurt him.
And he's out there somewhere.
And he needs to be found.
And in this advocacy slash truecrime space that I have found
myself in, I live with acondition I call hope.
That's how I operate, withcompassion and empathy and hope.
(07:56):
That these people who aremissing will come home.
That these families and willfind some kind of answers to
this ambiguous loss that theyface.
Some for decades.
I talk about this more and more.
You will hear how important itis for families to make sure
(08:19):
they have their DNA in theGEDmatch database.
Advancements in scientifictechnology, genetic genealogy,
DNA.
It is identifying Theunidentified.
It is giving names to thenameless.
It's solving crimes.
The amount of...
(08:40):
I don't have the data.
I don't know that it'squantifiable of how many
unidentified, unclaimed remainsof missing and murdered people
have been found and remainunidentified.
We will talk a lot about thisstuff.
(09:01):
It's all part of advocacy.
So Melanie and I, Melanie andme, sounds like a buddy comedy
where the dog lives.
Through Andy Puglisi, a10-year-old boy who has been
missing for almost 50 years,we've teamed up.
We've joined forces.
Power Twins activate form ofvictim advocates using true
(09:24):
crime for good for families likeAndy's.
Together, along with Dr.
Anne-Marie Myers, who is aforensic anthropologist who has
worked on a number of missingpersons cases and criminal
cases.
With the guidance of Shana atLight the Way and Julie Murray,
sister of missing woman MaraMurray, we have formed a
(09:47):
Massachusetts coalition.
It's called MPAC.
And it occurred to me veryrecently that it's like impact.
Massachusetts Missing andMurdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition, MMMPAC, MPAC.
In the new year, we have manyplans for outreach and events to
support families throughadvocacy and legislative
(10:11):
advocacy.
Open Investigation Season 1 isavailable now everywhere that
you listen to podcasts.
Open Investigation Season 2 iscoming! That's all I can say
about it.
Melanie has to tell you therest.
And I did want to talk to herwhen I did those initial
episodes about Andy's case backin 2023.
(10:31):
We didn't know each other yet.
Open Investigation picks upwhere Have You Seen Andy?
the documentary leaves off.
During this time, a lot of newinformation has been uncovered,
not only about Andy's case, buta number of other children, just
like Andy, who disappeared orwere found murdered in the 70s
and 80s around New England.
(10:52):
It was a dark time, and therewere forces working in concert.
Children went missing.
They were abducted off thestreet.
You saw Mystic River, right?
At Saturday night's show at Kodoand Lowell, it's about Merrimack
Valley crime stories, and Andy'sstory will definitely be
(11:13):
included in the evening.
Coming up, part one of myconversation with Melanie
Perkins McLaughlin, advocate,filmmaker, podcast creator and
host.
Oh, Emmy winner.
This is episode 77.
We will travel back to thatswimming pool in Lawrence,
Massachusetts on a hot summerday in August, 1976, where a
(11:37):
little girl named Melanie has afriend named Andy.
Coming up, part one of myconversation with Melanie
Perkins McLaughlin.
Please support Crime of theTruest Kind, and there are a
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(11:58):
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(12:21):
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Come to a live show.
(12:42):
Next one, Saturday, January 25that Kodo in Lowell in
Massachusetts, Merrimack Valley.
Don't forget to join the mailinglist.
All of this atCrimeOfTheChewestKind.com.
Thank you.
You got to catch your breath fora minute after season one.
(13:04):
Are you writing season two ofOpen Investigation right now?
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
It is gestating.
It has to swim in my mind for alittle bit before I can get it
out onto paper.
And so what I'm doing right nowis a lot of intake.
I'm doing a lot of reading,research, sorting, kind of like
in my mind.
I go to bed at night and thinkabout it.
I wake up in the morning andthink about it.
I'm thinking about the seriesarc.
(13:27):
What do I want to focus on?
And just like with everything inthis case, I think the story's
down and then more comes up.
You know what I mean?
So it's always the more I dig,the more I find.
So it does have to come to apoint where it's pen to paper or
(13:49):
keyboard to screen or howeveryou want to put it.
When it comes down to that,there does come a point where I
have to stop that thatgestating, that researching,
that what have you, but I couldjust keep going and
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
going.
You have to find where to end.
We have to then decipher like,what is really adding to the
story or what is just, you know,sort of coloring the scene that
we're, I do this in my writing.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
Yeah.
And I just also feel likethere's a million stories,
right?
Like there's a million storiesto tell.
And so what story am I going totell in this instance?
Like I have so many offshoots ofthe story to tell of the big
story, which is Andy, you know,there's a million other
offshoots of it.
And, you know, it wasinteresting, I ran into one of
our early, early researchassistants from the podcast when
(14:33):
we started back in 2017, and wedidn't publish until 2024.
So...
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Say that again.
You did the documentary.
It took a lot of time.
And then you had this podcastgestating in your mind seven
years before...
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Yeah.
And again, not just gestating inmy mind, I started recording
probably in 2017, but you know,again, other things would come
up or I'd record more, I'dresearch more, what have you.
But, you know, I tell people Istarted working on Andy's
disappearance in 1998 is 2024.
So it's been 20 or more than 25years that I've been working on
this.
However, in reality, this hasaffected me since I was nine
(15:11):
years old.
I'm 58.
It's been 50 years, really, 49years that this has infected me
in my life and, you know, waymore so Andy's family and his
life.
You know, it has really, theylive it every day.
They breathe it every day.
They miss him every minute.
obviously this has affected mylife and has changed the whole
(15:31):
course of my life in terms ofthe work that I do and why I do
what I do.
So yeah, just, you know, forpeople that are out there
listening about even like thepodcast or the book writing or
the documentary making or any ofit, you know, just keep going,
just keep doing it.
It can take a long time, youknow, but if it matters, if it
means something to you, justkeep doing it because truth
telling is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
That's a very important point to make about
what we do, people like you andI, we're different kinds of
creators.
I'll use that term that getstossed around so much.
We're different kinds ofcreators.
And, you know, we'll lean intomore of the advocacy
conversation that has been verymuch a part of our relationship,
you and I, Melanie.
Let's go back to those days.
(16:12):
You incredibly have a prettyvivid memory about being an
eight or nine-year-old littlegirl growing up in Lawrence,
Massachusetts.
I wish I had For better orworse, wish I had a better
memory of my childhood.
And obviously, it's driven bythe fact that that was a very
traumatic experience for you asa child to lose your friend in
(16:33):
this way.
Let's talk about in the summerof 1976, when you are friends
with this little boy, AndyPuglisi, who was almost 11, this
wonderful, joyful, agreeablesort of protector of all of his
siblings.
Let's talk about how you...
met him and how your friendshipdeveloped.
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
76, for those of you who were around will remember
this, but it was like the StarSpangled Banner threw up all
over the country.
I mean, you could not escapeparaphernalia from the
Bicentennial.
It was everywhere.
Pens, pencils, you know, we wereall dressing up in pilgrim
costumes and, you know, it wasjust nonstop.
(17:15):
We were being inundated with youknow, 1976 paraphernalia, Jimmy
Carter, who just died, waspresident at the time, you know,
it just was a whole differenttime.
And it was the end of fourthgrade and, um, I remember it was
in the spring of fourth gradeand I remember a lot of things
and it's been interestingbecause I've been doing some
memoir work and we remember alot of things based on like
(17:39):
events in time, right?
Like the bicentennial, forexample, right?
That was 1976.
We remember that, who yourteacher was, what grade you were
in, you know, so those sorts ofthings.
And you can backtrack times inyour life by looking at these
societal events.
So it was spring of 76, Andy hadmoved in and Yeah.
(18:17):
Later, you know, in middleschool and high school, we would
date each other's friends,right?
But I guess this was sort of theearly gestation of that, you
know?
Andy was Jeff's friend first,and I was the youngest and only
girl in a house of four, threeolder brothers, all about a year
apart.
And my brother was outsideplaying football with Andy.
(18:38):
And I came out of mygrandmother's house.
My grandmother lived a couple ofunits over, spent a lot of time
over there.
And I can still see them in mymind's eye, you know, out on
this little postage stamp ofgrass, really, you know,
playing, tossing a footballaround.
And I came out and I didn't knowwho this boy was.
He had long hair that sort ofcovered the front of his eyes.
And I I just saw that they wereplaying football and I was like,
(19:02):
hey, I want to play.
And my brother's first response,as always, was like, no, you
know, get lost.
And Andy stopped and he justlooked at me and he's like,
well, if she can't play, I'm notplaying either.
And I was like, oh, you know,who's that?
You know, who's that boy?
And so that caught my attention,his kindness.
(19:22):
Somewhere along the line, wejust, you know, we became
friends ourselves.
And so it wasn't, Jeff didn'tnecessarily have to be in the
picture, my brother.
And I remember we just startedto hang out on our own and I had
a crush on him.
I don't think I ever verbalizedthat I had a crush on him.
He didn't, you know, we weren'tlike, I like you, you know, we
were nine and 10 years old.
He was about to be 11.
(19:42):
Let me see.
He had Barry, Michael, Gina.
So he had three younger siblingsand his mother was pregnant and
he was the oldest.
And so he was very paternal.
He was typically the oldestbrother.
He was always taking care ofthem.
And I remember being afraid ofhis mother.
She always seemed like, youknow, and we were afraid a lot
of the project mothers.
(20:03):
Like you were like, oh, don't gonear that one.
She's going to tell you what todo.
And they were everyone's mother.
That was just the projects,right?
You had to listen to every, andit was the time, you know, kids
had to listen to any adult.
And so I would kind of, youknow, steer clear of Andy's
house if his mom was home.
But I have a couple of vividmemories.
one time he was babysitting hissiblings and his mom wasn't
home.
And I was sitting on the porchof his house and he was handing
(20:24):
out chocolate chip cookies tothem.
And, you know, he had passed thepackage around to everyone had
had one, including me.
It started with me.
And then when he was done, therewas an extra cookie or something
left.
And he came back to me andoffered me an additional one,
which again was another sort ofyou know, sealed the deals for
me.
He's like, you know, you canplay with me and I'm going to
stick up for you and I'll giveyou chocolate chip cookies and
(20:46):
I'm cute.
You know, he was cute.
He was tan, you know, he'sItalian descent.
So he had like a olive coloredskin and he just, the sun would
sort of pick it up and he'd gettan, you know, before everybody
else.
And he had a really nice smile.
His hair sort of covered hiseyes a little bit and he'd flip
his head to the side.
And I remember his eyes werebrown and I talk about this when
(21:08):
I write.
They sort of reminded me of likethe center of a Tootsie Pop,
right?
Like they were that sweet brown.
Yep, I had a crush, like I said.
But it was an innocent crush.
It was nothing more than like, Ilike him.
He likes me.
We like to spend time together.
He's nice to me.
But there were some, you know,like pivotal moments.
Like I remember he had a CBradio walkie-talkie that he had
(21:29):
gotten just before hedisappeared.
And he brought it outside and wewere playing with it and it was
heavy.
It was a heavy duty adult one.
It wasn't like a kid one thathad been refashioned.
It was a real CB radiowalkie-talkie.
And we were just such kids withit that we would literally just
go out of eyesight of eachother, like around the corner
where you could still, if wesaid hello without a walkie
(21:49):
talkie, you would still know wewere there.
But just being kids, we would goout of eyesight of each other
and use the walkie talkie andthink it was the best thing in
the world.
So he was super excited aboutthat.
I do remember, and I talk moreto law enforcement about this,
and I have talked to Andy'smother about this a little bit
too.
I do remember a couple of weeksbefore Andy disappeared, maybe
(22:10):
longer, you know, it's hard toknow in kid time, something had
changed and My brother Jeff andI talk about this.
It was just like there was ashadow over him.
I don't know how else to explainit.
He was a little bit more somber.
He was keeping me at arm'slength.
I mean, we had just met eachother in March anyway.
It was August now, so we hadn'tknown each other very long.
(22:33):
But initially, when you likesomebody, you want to spend all
your time with them, right?
And so maybe the bloom wascoming off the rose a little
bit.
I don't know.
Or maybe...
there was something more goingon with him.
I suspect there was somethingmore going on with him.
I don't know what that was.
But I do remember the day at thepool.
It was the dog days of summer.
(22:53):
We were tired and bored and hot.
We were getting ready for schoolto start again.
Fifth grade was starting in acouple of weeks.
We were excited, waiting tofigure out who our teachers
were, whose class we were goingto be in, all that excitement
around that.
But we did what we did every daypretty much in the summer.
was go to the state pool, whichhad been built right across the
(23:15):
street a few years earlier.
And it was such a gift.
It was like our vacation forkids didn't really get a
vacation.
It was there every single dayand you could go at any given
time.
So, you know, we woke up, Iremember it being one of the
hottest days of the summer.
It was so hot.
And we went to the pool shortlyafter we woke up, my brother,
Jeff and I, which was probablyaround 10 or 11.
(23:36):
Andy was there and a couple ofother kids from the projects,
mostly boys that I can remember.
And that was often the casebecause I had three older
brothers.
I was often hanging out withtheir friends.
And so it was mostly boysaround.
I think it was around twoo'clock or so in the afternoon.
Cause I remember it was afterlunch and I was hungry.
I was, you know, my stomach wasstarting to hurt cause I was
hungry and they had a snack barthere that would just like tease
(23:57):
you, right?
You could smell the pizzacooking and you know, you just
get really hungry.
And it was like, oh, I couldn'tput it off anymore.
Especially having expended allthat energy swimming.
Cause we would just be swimmingnonstop for hours.
So say we got there at 10, it'snow two, we've been swimming
hard, you know, for like fourhours with the exception of the
mandatory 10 minute breaks wherethey blow the whistle and
(24:18):
everybody has to get out andtake a breath, you know, so that
we're not just so overexertingourselves.
And I was hungry and I wanted togo home and it was hot.
And I remember there was alittle tiny overhang at the pool
where there's some shade and youwould, you know, fight for the
shade when it was hot like that.
And we, the boys were all underthe shade sort of lined up and
(24:38):
we were all sitting there and Istood up and I said, I'm going
home, you know, Andy, will youwalk me home?
And I didn't normally askanybody to walk me home as far
as I can remember.
I mean, I think we usually wentin groups and left in groups, so
I didn't have to ask anybody towalk me home.
But for this day in particular,I asked to be walked home, which
was a little unique, I think.
(25:00):
I think it was probably my ownintuition as a kid, you know, I
don't know, that I try to listento much more now as an adult.
Andy said no, he didn't want toleave yet.
And I was a little bummed andannoyed because he was the kid
that if you asked him to dosomething, he would generally do
it.
And so I said to my brother,Jeff, will you walk me home?
(25:20):
And Jeff said, no, I don't wantto go either.
And I said, I'm telling Ma.
And I turned on my heels andsort of storming out, annoyed.
And I guess from my brother'stelling, he thought twice about
it, didn't want to get introuble, jumped up and decided
he would walk me home.
So we went home and, you know,home was probably, I mean,
(25:40):
Andy's house was only a couplehundred feet.
You could see Andy's house fromthe pool parking lot.
So, and my house, my unit was,you know, just diagonal to
Andy's across a little bit of abasketball court.
So our house wasn't far.
It was probably not even aquarter mile to my house, to our
unit.
So we went home around two and Ithink we had every intention of
(26:00):
coming back.
I know we did because, you know,that's normally what we would
do, but I think it was justprobably so hot.
You get home, you eat, and thenyou're like, oh, I'm actually
tired.
You know, you start watching TVand we just never made it back
to the pool.
And I remember later in the day,my brother Jeff saying something
to me like, oh, Andy's mom'slooking for him.
And I was like, really?
You know, it was around dinnertime.
(26:21):
And I was like, oh, you know,and I thought he was going to
get in trouble, right?
I'm like, oh, he's in trouble,right?
We know that if we didn't showup for dinner, we're going to be
in trouble.
So that was about it.
And then, you know, didwhatever, you know, watched TV
that night, probably, you know,solid gold dancers and, you
know, happy days or somethinglike that, who knows, and went
to bed.
It was a Sunday night and wentto bed.
And at some time in the morning,you know, in the darkness, my
(26:44):
mother woke us up and brought usdownstairs to the kitchen table,
and there was a police officerthere, and he was asking us if
we had seen Andy, when was thelast time we were with him, what
had he been wearing, just sortof all of that.
And I remember being...
puzzled by it.
And it was so interestingbecause the next morning it was
still just before the, you know,the alarm really started to
(27:06):
ring.
And once that happened, thewhole projects changed and it
was like a cacophony of soundand, you know, helicopters and
low flying airplanes andnational guard and people
yelling Andy's name and justlike, you know, horror.
But just before that, thatquiet, just before that, I
remember my first thought being,Maybe he was taken by a rich
(27:30):
family, right?
Maybe he was taken by a richfamily and like the little
princess, right?
Like that he was going to belike, he's going to go to Disney
all the time, right?
Like it was just sort of thiskid's thing of like, maybe, you
know, and it was so, such a, youknow, strange thought to think,
but it was sort of the firstthought.
And then, and maybe it was a wayof comforting myself.
(27:52):
And then, you know, otherwise Ithought he was going to be in
trouble.
Like I didn't think somebody hadtaken him.
I thought he had done somethingwrong and he was going to get in
trouble and that was it.
And then we were off andrunning, you know, once the
search started, then it was awhole different, a whole
different ballgame.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Have you since made the connection with whatever
that odd feeling was for youthat day was maybe some kind of
foreboding about danger lurkingaround you?
I know it sounds very movie ofthe week, but it's legitimate.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
No, I don't think it sounds movie of the week.
I think the kids are way moresensitive to that stuff than the
rest of us are.
And I now as an adult,especially, you know, an adult
in my third act, if you will,I'm trying to pay a lot more
attention to that intuition thatwe all have in that sense that
we all have of the connectivityand you know, what's around us
and what have you.
And yeah, in retrospect, I dothink that my alarm was going
(28:48):
off.
There was some inner knowing ofdanger around me because I'm,
didn't want to walk home alone.
And it's interesting because nowwhen I try to figure things out
about what was going on in theprojects and stuff like that, I
actually literally walk myselfthrough the projects mentally.
And I let my body feel where Iknew not to go, right?
(29:10):
Because the kids knew for themost part where not to go,
right?
Or where, you know, there wassuspicious activity or where,
you know what I mean?
Like we sort of, you have asense of that.
And so as I look at what washappening in the projects and
sort of considering the biggerpicture.
I do go back to that childintuition a lot and think, well,
you know, who made youuncomfortable or, you know,
(29:31):
where did you send sort of anyof these things?
And, and in retrospect, I alsothink that was probably part of
what was going on with Andy.
When I say there's a shadowabout him, right.
I think that there was somethinggoing on with him that maybe he
was protecting other kids from,it would be very like him to be
doing that.
in terms of protecting kids.
(29:53):
So I don't really know, butyeah, I do.
And I also really, I do thinkthat, you know, now as I'm
older, I think about sort of,again, Carl Jung and the
collective unconscious, right?
That's a famous psychoanalystwho was a student of Freud.
And I always was reallyinterested in his theories and
sort of the way that we're allconnected and how we're all sort
(30:15):
of part of the universe, if youwill.
And today I think that it's nota coincidence that I do this
work.
You know, I think that when Andydisappeared after that horror
show of a search and, you know,witnessing it as a nine-year-old
little girl being really likeone of the most stark memories I
(30:36):
have is standing underneath thistree outside of my bedroom that
was friend to me.
I love that tree.
I brought my kids to meet thetree.
It's so funny.
I'm so corny now as an adult.
But this tree meant a lot to me.
It sounds corny, but I'd be inmy room and it would make
shadows on my wall.
And I just liked it.
I liked nature.
There wasn't a lot of it in theprojects.
Now I use it to heal myself whenI'm out in the community walking
(30:59):
and all that stuff.
Nature is really healing.
And it was sort of this littlepiece of nature in my bedroom
window, if you will.
And so I liked this tree.
It sounds corny, but, and Iwould never say it to any of the
project kids and anybody outthere listening, that's a
project kid.
Don't make fun of me.
I don't care.
It was my tree layoff.
You know, I was standing underthe, this tree and I was looking
(31:19):
over at Andy's unit, which as Isaid, was diagonal to me.
And I just could not wrap mymind around the fact that they
had stopped looking for him.
Like, how do you stop lookingfor somebody?
And how does somebody, he didn'tjust disappear.
Like people don't just vanish.
I mean, I knew that, like youcouldn't just disappear.
So I didn't get it.
(31:41):
I just didn't get it.
And I, and I said to myself andto my tree with really firm,
Like when I grow up, I'm goingto find him, you know, and I
meant it.
And I didn't think that it wouldturn into this, right?
Like I didn't think I, you know,but I love that little girl now.
(32:01):
You know, now I've grown to lovethat little girl through a lot
of trauma therapy and through alot of other stuff.
I've grown to love that littlegirl.
And I think the conviction ofthat nine-year-old little girl,
you know, and that turned intowhat it is today, you know,
looking for this friend becauseknowing that it was wrong, that
it was wrong that the search hadbeen called off, that it was
wrong that he hadn't been found,that it was wrong that kids in
(32:23):
the project were treated as lessthan.
And, you know, that all of thatwas wrong.
And so today I can do somethingabout it.
And I am.
You were the
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
one who discovered his actual date of disappearance
was not Saturday the 21st.
It was, in fact, Sunday the22nd, which, as we know, all of
that is very pertinent to aninvestigation.
It has to do with alibis andwhere people were.
And how did that happen?
It
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
has to do with a million different things,
really.
Alibis where people were, whattime the pool closed, a whole
bunch of things.
So it's really interesting.
And it's actually a bone ofcontention because some of
Andy's family members don't wantto believe this at this point.
And so I'm actually working onjust getting them the evidence
to prove it because I havephysical evidence to prove it.
Trauma does a lot to our brains,right?
(33:12):
But also they don't trust thepolice.
So they're like, just becausethis police dispatch report says
it doesn't mean that the policecould have changed it.
And she's right.
There was some funky stuff goingon with the police.
It's not just the police report.
I have more than that.
I have a news story from anindependent news station that
talks about the datespecifically.
And then we have an eyewitness.
When I first started researchingAndy's disappearance, which was
(33:33):
in 1998, I...
had the experience ofresearching because I had been a
researcher on documentary filmsfor 15 years at that point.
So I had done a lot of research,a lot of archival research, a
lot of documentary research,going to the National Archives.
(33:53):
I mean, I knew how to doresearch.
And so I started researching hisdisappearance and building files
and categorizing things and whathave you.
And I was noticing a discrepancyin some of the material.
Like some of the newspaperarticles would say Andy's
disappearance was on August22nd.
(34:16):
And some of them would say itwas on August 21st or, you know,
police reports would say August22nd and some of them would say
24.
It was just like that.
It was.
And so after a while, I rememberasking Andy, Andy's mother,
Faith, what date was it?
And the National Center forMissing and Exploded Children
had the date of Andy'sdisappearance as August 21st,
(34:39):
1976, on all of their material.
But remember, the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploded
Children was not created until1982.
So that was six years after Andyhad disappeared.
And it wasn't until the late80s, really, that police were
encouraged, if not required, toenter missing children
information into the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploited
(35:02):
Children.
So they were adding kidsretrospectively in terms of the
early, the 70s.
And so it could very well bethat whoever added Andy's
information in to the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploited
Children either just read anewspaper article to get the
date or was looking at somethingto get the date and just, you
(35:23):
know, got the wrong date bymistake, or it could be that
somebody gave them the wrongdate on purpose.
It's hard to know.
Late 1990s, early in theproject, I asked Faith if she
knew the date and she said itwas the 21st.
And I said, are you sure?
And she said, of course, I know.
I'm sure.
You know, I know the date my sonwent missing.
(35:43):
And I said, yes, of course.
I'm sorry.
I even asked.
And that was the end of it.
Yeah.
(36:09):
By this time, the world hadchanged from analog editing to
digital editing, which wasfairly new in 2005, 2006.
So it was a big differencethough, because you could take
audio and scrub it and listen toevery teeny tiny little bit of
it.
Whereas before, if you werelistening to it, you would have
(36:29):
to use an audio tape, you know,get it converted.
It would just slip.
There was tape slippage.
You would never get right on thebreath, right?
Like it didn't work that way, asyou know, from working in radio.
So there were these tapes fromWayne Chapman that we had
secured that were audio tapeswhen they were initially taken
from him when he was arrested in1977.
(36:50):
And Wayne W.
Chapman was one of the mainsuspects in Andy Puglisi's
disappearance.
So there were audio tapes of himrecording himself and of an
interrogation of him shortlyafter he was arrested in upstate
New York.
And in the interrogation, he istalking about taking a child
from a pool.
And I always thought that hesaid, I took the child from a
(37:15):
pool with a towel.
And we had sent out these tapesto transcriptionists, right?
But they couldn't, Chapman has alittle bit of an accent.
The tapes were not the bestquality, you know?
So there would be times whenthey would just have
unintelligible written in thetranscript.
And this was one of those times.
So we assumed it said, I tookthe boy from the pool with a
towel.
(37:35):
And it wasn't until my editorwas editing this audio into the
fine cut of the film that Iremember, like it was yesterday,
I was downstairs making lunchfor us and she came downstairs.
Now she didn't know that I wasworking on this angle.
I was researching somethingwhere a boy had told me he had
been with Andy when he wasabducted and he had witnessed
(37:57):
his abduction.
Wow.
(38:21):
which was huge because the boythat said he had witnessed
Andy's abduction was six yearsyounger than him.
He was a four-year-old at thetime.
He's a grown man, obviously,today.
And his story has not changed inall those years.
In all the 30-plus years, he'shad the same story.
I can tell you more about thestory if you want, but I won't
get into it now.
(38:42):
People can also watch the film,what have you.
But essentially, the boy said hehad witnessed Andy's abduction,
and he had been with him, and hehad details of his abduction.
And he said, at the end of himwitnessing the abduction, he
said, Andy saved his life.
He was pushing him up this hillto get away from these men that
were chasing them.
The boy gets to the top of thehill, and nobody's there.
(39:05):
He wants to cry for help, and hesays, nobody's there.
And I think, I don't know if Ibelieve this kid, because I knew
at this point that August 21stwas a Saturday.
Yeah.
(39:35):
As I went out and interviewedthis person and talked with him
more and believed more of hisstory because he is so
convincing and he's neverchanged his story and he had
some data.
He had a nervous breakdown inseventh grade telling people the
same story.
All of it was the same that Idecided to just sort of check
the discrepancy again.
What is going on?
(39:55):
Was this a Saturday or a Sunday?
And I think I looked at one ofthe police reports and I noticed
that it said a Sunday.
August 22nd.
And so I called Faith back and Isaid, is there any chance this
was August 22nd, a Sunday?
And at that point, she was like,you know what?
I don't even know.
So much time has passed.
I don't know.
I always thought it was August21st, but maybe that's just
(40:18):
because of what I was told andwhat I saw.
I don't really know.
And I said, okay, well, it's areally important piece of
information because if thisoccurred on a Sunday, then this
kid's story would be moreBecause coming up from, you
know, behind the pool at 5.30 or6, the pool would have been
empty on a Sunday.
It closed at like 5.
So it was substantially validatehis story in my eyes.
(40:41):
And so...
I chose to move forward with hisstory and include him in the
film because he is so believableand because he also identified
Wayne Chapman as the man whoapproached them initially.
And Wayne Chapman wasapproaching a number of people
at the pool that day, accordingto a number of eyewitnesses.
So I included his story in thedocumentary and that was that
(41:03):
pretty much.
And then more recently when Iwas working on the podcast, I
have been spending some timedoing some additional research
because this story is such thatthe research is never done.
Like the more you dig, the moreyou find.
And like I keep trying to get tothe end of this research, this
(41:24):
story, if you will, and it'snever going to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
There's no end to these stories.
SPEAKER_02 (41:28):
There is no end to these stories.
There's no end to these storiesand there's no end to–
unfortunately what I believeAndy became a part of and was
involved in, not involved in, inthe sense that he was, you know,
doing things himself, but thathe became part of this organized
human trafficking of children, Ibelieve.
And so I started to do some moreresearch around that theory
(41:50):
because, you know, it had poppedup so many times since the time
the film was released in 2007,there was so much, even at the
end of the film, you can tellthat I am uncovering more.
And, you know, I talk about the,child sex trafficking ring in
Revere, Massachusetts, that wasbroken up in 1977 and formed the
North American Man-Boy LoveAssociation.
(42:12):
That's the end of the film.
That's the last part of the filmwhere I say there's all these
unidentified children's remainsand so on and so forth.
So I knew the story wasn'tending.
And I started to really diveinto this organized nature.
And again, you can listen to thepodcast and understand more
about how I came to the point ofthe historical trafficking of
(42:36):
children in Massachusetts and,you know, where that all derived
from, but suffices to say it wasdecades of research, decades of
research, very intensive.
And the podcast really bringsthat research to you.
Open investigation really sharesthe data.
It was important for me to sharethe data and the facts.
I wanted people to know thatthis is not just, you know, It's
(42:59):
not just sort of an idea.
It's proven, in fact, in so manydifferent ways that there was,
for sure, trafficking ofchildren in Massachusetts in the
1970s, without a doubt.
And for sure, there are at least27 unsolved missing and murdered
children cases in Massachusetts.
And for sure, there are at least27 unsolved missing and murdered
(43:20):
children's cases fromMassachusetts in the 1970s.
Going back before Andydisappeared.
before Andy disappeared.
And, you know, that's just theseventies.
And that's just what I was ableto uncover.
I'm sure that there are ones, asI say, in the podcast, there's
information that slips throughthe database and falls to the
cracks for any number of reasonsto the dataset and falls to the
cracks for any number of reasonslike Denise Cochran, who
(43:43):
continues to haunt me.
Right.
So, um, and that's only theseventies.
We're not talking about thesixties and the fifties, you
know, we're not talking aboutall those, you know, earlier
times, but, um, You know, humantrafficking was a billion-dollar
industry in the 1970s inAmerica, and people just don't
realize that.
And so the podcast really getsinto the deep dive of that.
And as I'm researching for thepodcast, this organized nature,
(44:06):
I really start looking throughold records that I hadn't had
access to before.
And I became really interestedin finding out whether this was
the 21st or 22nd.
And so I ended up finding apolice log, a dispatch log, has
the time of dispatch at 1140time of police dispatch to talk
(44:27):
to faith about her child whowent missing that day at 3 30 PM
was the last time they werereported seeing him.
The dispatch log has the policedispatch to faith that around,
you know, I don't have it infront of me.
I read it from the podcast, butit's 1130, 1140 PM that night,
the police go to faith and Andthen they say, right on the log,
(44:52):
no report filed at this time.
So they take the information,but they don't even file a
report.
And interestingly, one of thepolice, one of the people that
took that report on that sameday at 1130 p.m.
on that Sunday, August 22nd.
was a police officer who wassubsequently found to be in a
compromising position with ateenage boy from the project.
(45:14):
So a police officer who is saidto be a pedophile took the
report that Andy was missing anddecided not to file the
information the evening theytook the report.
And that police dispatch logclearly says Sunday, August
22nd.
So I was like, okay, there'sthat piece of information, but
like with any good journalist,you need a second source, right?
(45:34):
What's another piece ofinformation?
And then I ended up finding thisstory, this old news story from
a local news station.
And it's a reporter shot onfilm.
It's interesting because it'sout of sync, right?
You have to record the audio andfilm differently back in the
day.
And it's out of sync andeverything else.
And I got this news report fromthe day after Andy disappeared.
(45:56):
And it is so incredible.
Faith looks like she's about 12years old.
She's really very much affectedby her trauma.
You can see she's just like likethe child who witnessed Andy's
abduction.
In his interview, you see himvery sort of stoically looking
at the camera with his eyes.
He barely blinks as he's tellingthe story.
And that's how Faith is in thisinterview with this reporter.
(46:19):
She's barely blinking.
She's just very matter-of-facttrying to tell the story, which
is, again, very much a traumaresponse.
And the reporter clearly saysit's Monday, the day after Andy
disappeared from the swimmingpool.
Monday, August 23rd, the dayafter Andy Puglisi disappeared
from the swimming pool inLawrence.
So that was my second question.
(46:39):
piece of corroboratinginformation.
But interestingly, since then,you know, so then the National
Center for Missing and ExploitedChildren got this information
from the police department, fromthe state police saying, you
know, this date was wrong andthey fixed it with NCMEC, with
the National Center for Missingand Exploited Children.
But interestingly, since then,you know, Andy's mom and dad
(47:01):
have not agreed with that.
They now feel like Saturday the21st was the day he disappeared.
And his dad says something abouthe was working that Saturday.
And so he was at work at thattime.
So he remembers that.
And, you know, the police gotinformation wrong.
So they probably got this wrong.
And so I understand that.
And, you know, the family isentitled to their opinions of
(47:22):
everything.
And they were there and theylived it.
It's not, you know, just theiropinion.
But we also know that traumamemory can be faulty, right?
And it can have All kinds ofissues.
So I would never want to saythat Andy's parents are
incorrect in the information.
All I can say is that these arethe two documents that I found
that say that it was Sunday,August 22nd.
(47:43):
And also, you know, the youngman, Ray, who says he was with
Andy the day he disappeared.
His story is also sort ofcorroborating that it was Sunday
because there was no one at thepool when he says he came back
from Witnessing that abductionwhere Andy saved his life.
So it's a strange set ofcircumstances and it leads to
all kinds of questions becausethat little mistake, whether it
(48:05):
was an accidental mistake or apurposeful mistake, at this
point, it doesn't really matter.
It's lost to the years, but itcaused a lot of issue because
people's alibis, right?
Like where were you on Saturdayversus where were you on Sunday
is a whole different question,right?
And so there's all of that.
And at this point, do I thinkwe're going to find the person
(48:28):
that abducted Andy and be ableto hold him responsible or her
responsible?
I don't.
But what I do believe is thatwe'll find more answers to what
happened to Andy and along theselines of what we've talked about
in the podcast, I believe.
And also, I still very much holdout hope that we will bring
Andy's remains home for his lifeto be celebrated and for him to
(48:53):
be put to rest and for hisfamily to be able to have a
place to go to be with him.
And, you know, every family hasa right to be able to put their
loved one to rest.
SPEAKER_00 (49:04):
And
SPEAKER_02 (49:05):
I believe that that will still happen for Andy and I
always
SPEAKER_01 (49:08):
have.
There are many important thingsto bring up when it comes to
cases like Andy's and childrenlike Andy's and family members
that have gone through thingslike the Puglisi's have.
One of the things that we'refinding more recently due to DNA
and the technology, astechnology continues to grow,
and I know that you've said thisa number of times, and you have
(49:30):
impressed this upon the Puglisifamily to make sure that they
have information, that they haveDNA in the database.
So as we continue to find, youknow, there are remains of
people found all the time.
It may not be highly publicized,but we're seeing more and more
of these cases be brought to aclose because of DNA evidence.
SPEAKER_02 (49:53):
Right, and part of the issue with unidentified
remains or remains that havebeen found is that there isn't,
like we say in the film and evenin the podcast, there isn't a
system in place really for howto deal with these unidentified
remains, which is a biggerissue, right?
And so if remains are found,there are literally, like we
talked with a forensicanthropologist out of another
(50:14):
state not Massachusetts.
And they were sharing with usthat there are literally, you
know, remains in laboratoriesand funeral homes at the
national center for missing andsplit children in police
officers, desk drawers.
I mean, literally unclaimed,unrecorded, you know, and these
all need to be in a system likename us where the information is
put into the system.
(50:35):
And so that families who are, Ithink it's 23andMe.com.
(51:00):
you can check off that you wantthem to go ahead and send that
profile to GEDmatch.
And that's what we recently didwith Andy's mom, because over a
decade ago, we begged police totake a DNA sample from Andy's
mom and put it into CODIS, whichis the criminal offender
database information system.
And so, or crime offender, Idon't know exactly the acronym,
(51:22):
but CODIS is the national lawenforcement database system.
So CODIS, They did.
They had state police come outwhere she lives in the state
that she lives in and take herDNA.
And, you know, they processed itand put it into CODIS.
And I thought that meant that,oh, okay, every time there's an
unidentified remains, you know,put into CODIS, it checks to see
(51:43):
if it matches Andy's mom.
And then, nope, it doesn't, youknow, okay.
And that's not true.
That's not what happens.
You have to have someone fromlaw enforcement actively say,
oh, run this remain, you know,this bone that was found in
Tennessee against FaithPuglisi's DNA, from what I
(52:03):
understand, to see if itpotentially is this kid.
Now, they say there are some Youknow, there are some ways that
they run it, and I'm hoping withartificial intelligence that
will happen more and more, but Ijust don't think it's a system
that exists today.
So the best bet today is, youknow, getting the remains into a
NEMA system, which is alsoattached to, you know, GEDmatch
(52:25):
and searches GEDmatch and havingfamily members' DNA in the
GEDmatch so that unidentifiedremains can be compared to
missing persons' DNA.
And if folks don't know how todo that and they're listening,
they can contact their localpolice department.
Right.
(52:59):
there are sites that do that.
And even now, you know, the coldcase unit has started to have
events where they're hostingevents that families can attend,
where they can give their DNAsample to help with these
unidentified remains.
And so I think there's a lot, alot, a lot of remains that have
been found over the years thathave not been identified.
And I think we'll see more ofthat over the, you know, the
next decades.
(53:21):
We see it all the time, 50 yearold, you know, crime solved.
And every time I see that I postit on our, on our social media,
because it just gives me that,bit of hope.
And I'm sure, you know, givesAndy's family that bit of hope
that it doesn't matter how longhas passed, you know, he's
coming home and we'll stilladvocate and continue to
advocate for that and believethat.
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
It is completely possible for these cases, cases
like Andy's.
We've seen it.
The longest unsolved cold case,unidentified persons in the The
state of Massachusetts was theLady of the Dunes, who now has
an identity, Ruth Marie Terry.
And we now know the cause of herdeath, the person she was
(54:02):
married to, closed case, whosubsequently we found out is
dead.
So they face no repercussions.
But that person who'sresponsible for Ruth Marie
Terry's death is probablyresponsible for others' deaths.
You know, another case veryclose to home for us is the Bear
Brook murders.
We know the identity of three ofthe four people.
(54:24):
There's one child we still don'tknow, but I believe very soon we
will know.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
I believe that too.
And I mean, there's no reasonthat we shouldn't now with
family, you know, geneticgenealogy and family, you know,
familial DNA.
I think there's no reason thatwe should know that.
But, you know, the other thingis that the advocacy piece is
really important because thereare costs involved.
Money, you know, is an issue.
It comes down to money too,right?
So, you know, if a bone isfound, for example, you know,
(54:51):
there was a priest, if youremember in the podcast, there
was a priest that told me thatAndy was dead and that we would
never find him unless someonehappened upon his bones while
they were walking their dog inthe woods.
And I said, what woods?
And he was like, I don't know.
That's specific.
I was like, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (55:07):
That's oddly specific.
It was
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
oddly specific, frankly.
And also very full ofconviction.
Like when I said, how do youknow?
When he's dead, he said, I know.
And I said, how do you know?
He said, I know.
And I said, but I understandyou're saying I know.
I said, but tell me, how do youknow?
And he got firm and he said, Iknow.
And then he kind of smirked.
Somebody could be in the woodsand come across...
(55:29):
A bone and wonder if it's humanremains or not.
If that ever happens, please,you know, err on the side of
caution and get the bone to thepolice.
They can get an expert todetermine whether it is human or
not.
I encourage you very much ifyou're going to do that, though,
keep a picture of the bone, youknow, keep a documentation of
(55:50):
the police in the meeting
SPEAKER_01 (55:52):
so that you found it.
SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
where you found it, of course, and also having given
it to the police and asked themto make a record of that so that
it's all documented and you havethat information.
But then it's in the hands oflaw enforcement to decide what
they're going to do with thatbone.
And it depends on whose budgetis going to pay for that
unidentified remains to betested.
(56:14):
And people don't have unlimitedbudgets, right?
And so that's another piece ofadvocacy we could be doing
legislative advocacy level wherewe require that any remains
found are tested, right?
That they have to be tested.
I don't know that that's thecase today.
I mean, one would think thatthey would be, but again, you
know, there are other pressingbudget items and it all depends.
(56:35):
It's at the discretion, I wouldassume, of the district
attorney, whether they want todo that.
So these are all issues that wehave to face when we're
advocating for missing persons.
And Angel, we've worked togetherand with Dr.
Anne-Marie Myers and other folksto enlight the way and other
folks to create the Mass Missingand Murdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition, MPAC.
(56:56):
And we really just sort ofidentified it last year and sort
of have branded it and arewanting to move forward with it.
And the whole purpose is to beable to empower families to get
legislation to move their casesforward and to understand
legislative advocacy and whyit's important and you know, how
to change systems.
And we really want to teachfolks that.
(57:17):
And we really encourage folksif, you know, you're interested
in MPAC, please reach out to useither, you know, Angel's email
website oropeninvestigationpodcast.com.
You can email me or Angel andwe'll give you information and
we're collecting folks who areinterested in advocating with us
through MPAC.
And also, Thank you so much.
(57:54):
Parents directly are no longeraround, but maybe the siblings
are.
And I don't think these peopleunderstand the power of their
voice and the power of theirstory.
If you come to the statehouse orvideotape talking about your
story and people understand theimpact that this has had on you
all of these years and why theselaws need to happen, it really
can make a difference.
And we really do want to make adifference for everyone's child
(58:17):
and everyone's missing personout there.
SPEAKER_01 (58:24):
Thank you, Melanie.
OpenInvestigationPodcast.comHaveYouSeenAndy.com To learn
more about MPAC,MassMissingAndMurdered.org We
will be hosting a MissingPersons Day this spring.
We will also be in attendancefor any and hopefully all of the
(58:48):
Massachusetts State PoliceFamily Days.
where we invite families ofmissing and murdered loved ones
to come.
The first of its kind happenedin November, and I submitted my
own DNA.
I met a woman from GEDmatch, andwe talked about much of this
technology and the work thatthey're doing and bringing
(59:12):
answers to families who've beenlanguishing, some for decades.
My name is Angel Wood.
Thank you for listening.
This is Crime of the TruestKinds, Massachusetts and New
England crime stories.
I talk about historical kinds ofthings.
And advocacy.
A-B-A.
Always be advocating.
(59:36):
Follow the show at Crime of theTruest Kinds on all the places.
Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky,TikTok, YouTube.
Thank you to Patreon supporters.
I am revamping some things hereon the show.
Special shouts to superstar LisaMcColgan.
I have some revamps in thePatreon department coming your
(59:58):
way.
And a new look for the show.
That is all planned for thisfirst quarter-ish of 2025.
And I will be going toAdvocacyCon, the first
conference of its kind,happening in Indianapolis at the
(01:00:19):
end of March.
It is exactly what it soundslike.
It's an advocacy conferenceabout people who advocate in
this crime space for families.
I will be taking Crime of theTruest Kind and MPAC,
Massachusetts Missing andMurdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition.
It is advocacy in action.
(01:00:41):
All right.
Thank you for listening.
I'll be back next week with parttwo of my conversation with
Melanie Perkins McLaughlin.
host and creator of OpenInvestigation.
All right, take care ofyourself.
It is okay to shut everythingdown if you need it.
It's okay to close the computer,shut down the social media, give
(01:01:05):
yourself a breather.
There is a lot going on in theworld.
Okay, I must be going.
Lock your goddamn doors.
Hello everyone, it's Melanie Perkins-McLaughlin, your
host of Open Investigation.
We're so excited to be workinghard on season two.
A little more than a year or soago, Angele Wood, host of Crime
of the Truest Kind, released twoepisodes on her podcast, episode
43 and 44, about Andy Puglisi.
I listened to those episodes andwas so impressed with her work
(00:21):
that I reached out to her.
After season one, OpenInvestigation was released,
Angele said, let's have aninformal conversation about how
it went and any that we mightwant to talk about.
So we did.
And Angel has put that on herCrime of the Truest Kind podcast
and has allowed us to share themas bonus episodes.
This is part one of aconversation that I had with my
(00:42):
good friend, Angel Wood, host ofCrime of the Truest Kind and now
true friend.
Follow Open Investigation,download the show or follow us
on social media.
We really need your support.
Thanks.
SPEAKER_01 (00:54):
Well, hello.
My name is Angel Wood and thisis Crime of the Truest Kind.
(01:19):
Hello listeners, Angel here.
Earlier this week, I dropped areplay of the two episodes I
recorded back in June of 2023about missing little boy Angelo,
Andy Puglisi.
He vanished without a trace fromthe public pool in Lawrence,
Massachusetts on August 22nd,1976.
(01:41):
Everything was different then,including how the authorities
dealt with a missing child.
I went over a lot of that inthose two episodes, episode 43
and 44.
So please, if you have notlistened to the two prior
episodes about Andy Puglisi fromLawrence, Massachusetts, please
(02:02):
stop here and go back andlisten.
Andy Puglisi's story is not atall what it seems on the
surface.
Yes, he's a little boy.
Who disappeared from a swimmingpool.
He is a little boy who wasgrowing up in the projects.
(02:26):
If you didn't grow up spendingany time in like a housing
project or an apartment complex,there's something kind of
special about it.
There's a certain, I don't know,membership to this unspoken
club.
I did live in an apartmentcomplex for a couple of years.
(02:50):
A vast majority of the kids thatI met while I lived there, their
moms were single moms.
And in the 80s, we werefree-range children, out all the
time.
I say this for a couple ofreasons, not to judge.
Times were tough, moms had towork, kids stayed home, and we
kind of looked out for eachother.
(03:11):
I have a vivid memory of anafternoon.
at that pool where the cool kidlifeguard was playing the radio
each and every time I hear thehuman league don't you want me I
think about that pool there wasone pool for a lot of apartments
in that complex and it wasusually packed kids teenagers
(03:33):
some adults summers were roughand I don't remember having AC
there wasn't a lot of swimminggoing on There were so many kids
in the pool that it was justkind of floating in place and
splashing at each other andplaying games.
We didn't care because we werewith our friends.
These stories often have somepersonal connection.
(03:56):
I grew up in the MerrimackValley of Massachusetts, not far
away from where Andy Puglisilived with his family in the
summer of 1976.
His story is far morecomplicated than it appears.
on the surface.
It's a Pandora's box, a titlethat I borrow from Open
(04:18):
Investigation, one of theepisodes in Melanie Perkins
McLaughlin's eight-part podcastseries that was released this
past September.
I met Melanie through Andy.
You're saying, how did you meeta woman through a little boy
who's been missing for almost 50years?
(04:38):
I researched Andy's case and Iwatched the documentary that
Melanie put decades worth ofwork into to research and write
and direct and produce.
The documentary is called HaveYou Seen Andy?
It's streaming now on HBO Max.
I should add, Melanie won anEmmy for this documentary.
(05:00):
Melanie heard those podcasts,and I guess I did something
right because she reached out tome.
We spoke.
And then we met, and then wetalked about projects.
Melanie was working on a podcastand had been for a number of
years.
I wanted her to produce it, andI wanted her to release it, and
(05:21):
I wanted to help her do that.
And in speaking with Melanieabout Andy Puglisi's case, what
we were able to learn after thedocumentary, Have You Seen
Andy?, was released in 2007,much more information became
available.
Where did that information comefrom?
It came from Melanie digging andresearching.
(05:44):
In the podcast world, or maybemore appropriate to say true
crime world, these creators, airquotes, are often quick to jump
on stories.
A fair amount of them take otherpeople's hard work without
giving them any kind of credit.
They often just behave as thoughthey did all that work on their
own.
(06:06):
And we've seen some of thesesame kinds of creators take a
family story.
I'm saying, make shit up tocreate a sexier narrative.
No case has any proprietaryinformation.
Well, technically, that is true.
If the information is out there,it's free to whomever finds it.
(06:29):
But let me be clear.
The reason why any of us in thisquote-unquote true crime space
know anything about the daysleading up to and the days that
followed Andy Puglisi'sdisappearance, it's all because
of the work that Melanie PerkinsMcLaughlin did.
(06:50):
Andy was her friend.
She knew him.
She spent time with him on theday he disappeared.
Season one of her podcast, OpenInvestigation, is out now, an
eight-part series that startswith Andy Puglisi and his
disappearance and goes, well,way beyond that.
(07:11):
Doing this kind of work can behard.
If you really care about it, youwant to do the right thing.
You don't want to exploitfamilies, and you don't want
other creators to exploitfamilies.
And you don't want to cause anymore trauma than they've already
experienced.
Over time, you get to know thesefamilies.
And if you're anything like me,you get protective.
(07:32):
Andy Puglisi is still missing.
Someone took him.
Someone hurt him.
And he's out there somewhere.
And he needs to be found.
And in this advocacy slash truecrime space that I have found
myself in, I live with acondition I call hope.
That's how I operate, withcompassion and empathy and hope.
(07:56):
That these people who aremissing will come home.
That these families and willfind some kind of answers to
this ambiguous loss that theyface.
Some for decades.
I talk about this more and more.
You will hear how important itis for families to make sure
(08:19):
they have their DNA in theGEDmatch database.
Advancements in scientifictechnology, genetic genealogy,
DNA.
It is identifying Theunidentified.
It is giving names to thenameless.
It's solving crimes.
The amount of...
(08:40):
I don't have the data.
I don't know that it'squantifiable of how many
unidentified, unclaimed remainsof missing and murdered people
have been found and remainunidentified.
We will talk a lot about thisstuff.
(09:01):
It's all part of advocacy.
So Melanie and I, Melanie andme, sounds like a buddy comedy
where the dog lives.
Through Andy Puglisi, a10-year-old boy who has been
missing for almost 50 years,we've teamed up.
We've joined forces.
Power Twins activate form ofvictim advocates using true
(09:24):
crime for good for families likeAndy's.
Together, along with Dr.
Anne-Marie Myers, who is aforensic anthropologist who has
worked on a number of missingpersons cases and criminal
cases.
With the guidance of Shana atLight the Way and Julie Murray,
sister of missing woman MaraMurray, we have formed a
(09:47):
Massachusetts coalition.
It's called MPAC.
And it occurred to me veryrecently that it's like impact.
Massachusetts Missing andMurdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition, MMMPAC, MPAC.
In the new year, we have manyplans for outreach and events to
support families throughadvocacy and legislative
(10:11):
advocacy.
Open Investigation Season 1 isavailable now everywhere that
you listen to podcasts.
Open Investigation Season 2 iscoming! That's all I can say
about it.
Melanie has to tell you therest.
And I did want to talk to herwhen I did those initial
episodes about Andy's case backin 2023.
(10:31):
We didn't know each other yet.
Open Investigation picks upwhere Have You Seen Andy?
the documentary leaves off.
During this time, a lot of newinformation has been uncovered,
not only about Andy's case, buta number of other children, just
like Andy, who disappeared orwere found murdered in the 70s
and 80s around New England.
(10:52):
It was a dark time, and therewere forces working in concert.
Children went missing.
They were abducted off thestreet.
You saw Mystic River, right?
At Saturday night's show at Kodoand Lowell, it's about Merrimack
Valley crime stories, and Andy'sstory will definitely be
(11:13):
included in the evening.
Coming up, part one of myconversation with Melanie
Perkins McLaughlin, advocate,filmmaker, podcast creator and
host.
Oh, Emmy winner.
This is episode 77.
We will travel back to thatswimming pool in Lawrence,
Massachusetts on a hot summerday in August, 1976, where a
(11:37):
little girl named Melanie has afriend named Andy.
Coming up, part one of myconversation with Melanie
Perkins McLaughlin.
Please support Crime of theTruest Kind, and there are a
number of ways that you can dothat.
Tell your friends about theshow.
Share it on social media.
Post about it online.
Are you on Reddit?
(11:58):
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Follow the show on social mediaat Crime of the Truest Kind
everywhere.
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Tell your friends about it.
Drop a tip in the jar.
You will be giving my dogs abone.
(12:21):
There's five of them.
Dogs.
So, we need a couple bones.
Become a patron on Patreon.
There are currently four tiersstarting at just one dollar.
You can help support the showand help get me to AdvocacyCon
that happens in March inIndianapolis.
You could buy some merch.
Come to a live show.
(12:42):
Next one, Saturday, January 25that Kodo in Lowell in
Massachusetts, Merrimack Valley.
Don't forget to join the mailinglist.
All of this atCrimeOfTheChewestKind.com.
Thank you.
You got to catch your breath fora minute after season one.
(13:04):
Are you writing season two ofOpen Investigation right now?
SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
It is gestating.
It has to swim in my mind for alittle bit before I can get it
out onto paper.
And so what I'm doing right nowis a lot of intake.
I'm doing a lot of reading,research, sorting, kind of like
in my mind.
I go to bed at night and thinkabout it.
I wake up in the morning andthink about it.
I'm thinking about the seriesarc.
(13:27):
What do I want to focus on?
And just like with everything inthis case, I think the story's
down and then more comes up.
You know what I mean?
So it's always the more I dig,the more I find.
So it does have to come to apoint where it's pen to paper or
(13:49):
keyboard to screen or howeveryou want to put it.
When it comes down to that,there does come a point where I
have to stop that thatgestating, that researching,
that what have you, but I couldjust keep going and
SPEAKER_01 (14:01):
going.
You have to find where to end.
We have to then decipher like,what is really adding to the
story or what is just, you know,sort of coloring the scene that
we're, I do this in my writing.
SPEAKER_02 (14:13):
Yeah.
And I just also feel likethere's a million stories,
right?
Like there's a million storiesto tell.
And so what story am I going totell in this instance?
Like I have so many offshoots ofthe story to tell of the big
story, which is Andy, you know,there's a million other
offshoots of it.
And, you know, it wasinteresting, I ran into one of
our early, early researchassistants from the podcast when
(14:33):
we started back in 2017, and wedidn't publish until 2024.
So...
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
Say that again.
You did the documentary.
It took a lot of time.
And then you had this podcastgestating in your mind seven
years before...
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Yeah.
And again, not just gestating inmy mind, I started recording
probably in 2017, but you know,again, other things would come
up or I'd record more, I'dresearch more, what have you.
But, you know, I tell people Istarted working on Andy's
disappearance in 1998 is 2024.
So it's been 20 or more than 25years that I've been working on
this.
However, in reality, this hasaffected me since I was nine
(15:11):
years old.
I'm 58.
It's been 50 years, really, 49years that this has infected me
in my life and, you know, waymore so Andy's family and his
life.
You know, it has really, theylive it every day.
They breathe it every day.
They miss him every minute.
obviously this has affected mylife and has changed the whole
(15:31):
course of my life in terms ofthe work that I do and why I do
what I do.
So yeah, just, you know, forpeople that are out there
listening about even like thepodcast or the book writing or
the documentary making or any ofit, you know, just keep going,
just keep doing it.
It can take a long time, youknow, but if it matters, if it
means something to you, justkeep doing it because truth
telling is so important.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
That's a very important point to make about
what we do, people like you andI, we're different kinds of
creators.
I'll use that term that getstossed around so much.
We're different kinds ofcreators.
And, you know, we'll lean intomore of the advocacy
conversation that has been verymuch a part of our relationship,
you and I, Melanie.
Let's go back to those days.
(16:12):
You incredibly have a prettyvivid memory about being an
eight or nine-year-old littlegirl growing up in Lawrence,
Massachusetts.
I wish I had For better orworse, wish I had a better
memory of my childhood.
And obviously, it's driven bythe fact that that was a very
traumatic experience for you asa child to lose your friend in
(16:33):
this way.
Let's talk about in the summerof 1976, when you are friends
with this little boy, AndyPuglisi, who was almost 11, this
wonderful, joyful, agreeablesort of protector of all of his
siblings.
Let's talk about how you...
met him and how your friendshipdeveloped.
SPEAKER_02 (16:54):
76, for those of you who were around will remember
this, but it was like the StarSpangled Banner threw up all
over the country.
I mean, you could not escapeparaphernalia from the
Bicentennial.
It was everywhere.
Pens, pencils, you know, we wereall dressing up in pilgrim
costumes and, you know, it wasjust nonstop.
(17:15):
We were being inundated with youknow, 1976 paraphernalia, Jimmy
Carter, who just died, waspresident at the time, you know,
it just was a whole differenttime.
And it was the end of fourthgrade and, um, I remember it was
in the spring of fourth gradeand I remember a lot of things
and it's been interestingbecause I've been doing some
memoir work and we remember alot of things based on like
(17:39):
events in time, right?
Like the bicentennial, forexample, right?
That was 1976.
We remember that, who yourteacher was, what grade you were
in, you know, so those sorts ofthings.
And you can backtrack times inyour life by looking at these
societal events.
So it was spring of 76, Andy hadmoved in and Yeah.
(18:17):
Later, you know, in middleschool and high school, we would
date each other's friends,right?
But I guess this was sort of theearly gestation of that, you
know?
Andy was Jeff's friend first,and I was the youngest and only
girl in a house of four, threeolder brothers, all about a year
apart.
And my brother was outsideplaying football with Andy.
(18:38):
And I came out of mygrandmother's house.
My grandmother lived a couple ofunits over, spent a lot of time
over there.
And I can still see them in mymind's eye, you know, out on
this little postage stamp ofgrass, really, you know,
playing, tossing a footballaround.
And I came out and I didn't knowwho this boy was.
He had long hair that sort ofcovered the front of his eyes.
And I I just saw that they wereplaying football and I was like,
(19:02):
hey, I want to play.
And my brother's first response,as always, was like, no, you
know, get lost.
And Andy stopped and he justlooked at me and he's like,
well, if she can't play, I'm notplaying either.
And I was like, oh, you know,who's that?
You know, who's that boy?
And so that caught my attention,his kindness.
(19:22):
Somewhere along the line, wejust, you know, we became
friends ourselves.
And so it wasn't, Jeff didn'tnecessarily have to be in the
picture, my brother.
And I remember we just startedto hang out on our own and I had
a crush on him.
I don't think I ever verbalizedthat I had a crush on him.
He didn't, you know, we weren'tlike, I like you, you know, we
were nine and 10 years old.
He was about to be 11.
(19:42):
Let me see.
He had Barry, Michael, Gina.
So he had three younger siblingsand his mother was pregnant and
he was the oldest.
And so he was very paternal.
He was typically the oldestbrother.
He was always taking care ofthem.
And I remember being afraid ofhis mother.
She always seemed like, youknow, and we were afraid a lot
of the project mothers.
(20:03):
Like you were like, oh, don't gonear that one.
She's going to tell you what todo.
And they were everyone's mother.
That was just the projects,right?
You had to listen to every, andit was the time, you know, kids
had to listen to any adult.
And so I would kind of, youknow, steer clear of Andy's
house if his mom was home.
But I have a couple of vividmemories.
one time he was babysitting hissiblings and his mom wasn't
home.
And I was sitting on the porchof his house and he was handing
(20:24):
out chocolate chip cookies tothem.
And, you know, he had passed thepackage around to everyone had
had one, including me.
It started with me.
And then when he was done, therewas an extra cookie or something
left.
And he came back to me andoffered me an additional one,
which again was another sort ofyou know, sealed the deals for
me.
He's like, you know, you canplay with me and I'm going to
stick up for you and I'll giveyou chocolate chip cookies and
(20:46):
I'm cute.
You know, he was cute.
He was tan, you know, he'sItalian descent.
So he had like a olive coloredskin and he just, the sun would
sort of pick it up and he'd gettan, you know, before everybody
else.
And he had a really nice smile.
His hair sort of covered hiseyes a little bit and he'd flip
his head to the side.
And I remember his eyes werebrown and I talk about this when
(21:08):
I write.
They sort of reminded me of likethe center of a Tootsie Pop,
right?
Like they were that sweet brown.
Yep, I had a crush, like I said.
But it was an innocent crush.
It was nothing more than like, Ilike him.
He likes me.
We like to spend time together.
He's nice to me.
But there were some, you know,like pivotal moments.
Like I remember he had a CBradio walkie-talkie that he had
(21:29):
gotten just before hedisappeared.
And he brought it outside and wewere playing with it and it was
heavy.
It was a heavy duty adult one.
It wasn't like a kid one thathad been refashioned.
It was a real CB radiowalkie-talkie.
And we were just such kids withit that we would literally just
go out of eyesight of eachother, like around the corner
where you could still, if wesaid hello without a walkie
(21:49):
talkie, you would still know wewere there.
But just being kids, we would goout of eyesight of each other
and use the walkie talkie andthink it was the best thing in
the world.
So he was super excited aboutthat.
I do remember, and I talk moreto law enforcement about this,
and I have talked to Andy'smother about this a little bit
too.
I do remember a couple of weeksbefore Andy disappeared, maybe
(22:10):
longer, you know, it's hard toknow in kid time, something had
changed and My brother Jeff andI talk about this.
It was just like there was ashadow over him.
I don't know how else to explainit.
He was a little bit more somber.
He was keeping me at arm'slength.
I mean, we had just met eachother in March anyway.
It was August now, so we hadn'tknown each other very long.
(22:33):
But initially, when you likesomebody, you want to spend all
your time with them, right?
And so maybe the bloom wascoming off the rose a little
bit.
I don't know.
Or maybe...
there was something more goingon with him.
I suspect there was somethingmore going on with him.
I don't know what that was.
But I do remember the day at thepool.
It was the dog days of summer.
(22:53):
We were tired and bored and hot.
We were getting ready for schoolto start again.
Fifth grade was starting in acouple of weeks.
We were excited, waiting tofigure out who our teachers
were, whose class we were goingto be in, all that excitement
around that.
But we did what we did every daypretty much in the summer.
was go to the state pool, whichhad been built right across the
(23:15):
street a few years earlier.
And it was such a gift.
It was like our vacation forkids didn't really get a
vacation.
It was there every single dayand you could go at any given
time.
So, you know, we woke up, Iremember it being one of the
hottest days of the summer.
It was so hot.
And we went to the pool shortlyafter we woke up, my brother,
Jeff and I, which was probablyaround 10 or 11.
(23:36):
Andy was there and a couple ofother kids from the projects,
mostly boys that I can remember.
And that was often the casebecause I had three older
brothers.
I was often hanging out withtheir friends.
And so it was mostly boysaround.
I think it was around twoo'clock or so in the afternoon.
Cause I remember it was afterlunch and I was hungry.
I was, you know, my stomach wasstarting to hurt cause I was
hungry and they had a snack barthere that would just like tease
(23:57):
you, right?
You could smell the pizzacooking and you know, you just
get really hungry.
And it was like, oh, I couldn'tput it off anymore.
Especially having expended allthat energy swimming.
Cause we would just be swimmingnonstop for hours.
So say we got there at 10, it'snow two, we've been swimming
hard, you know, for like fourhours with the exception of the
mandatory 10 minute breaks wherethey blow the whistle and
(24:18):
everybody has to get out andtake a breath, you know, so that
we're not just so overexertingourselves.
And I was hungry and I wanted togo home and it was hot.
And I remember there was alittle tiny overhang at the pool
where there's some shade and youwould, you know, fight for the
shade when it was hot like that.
And we, the boys were all underthe shade sort of lined up and
(24:38):
we were all sitting there and Istood up and I said, I'm going
home, you know, Andy, will youwalk me home?
And I didn't normally askanybody to walk me home as far
as I can remember.
I mean, I think we usually wentin groups and left in groups, so
I didn't have to ask anybody towalk me home.
But for this day in particular,I asked to be walked home, which
was a little unique, I think.
(25:00):
I think it was probably my ownintuition as a kid, you know, I
don't know, that I try to listento much more now as an adult.
Andy said no, he didn't want toleave yet.
And I was a little bummed andannoyed because he was the kid
that if you asked him to dosomething, he would generally do
it.
And so I said to my brother,Jeff, will you walk me home?
(25:20):
And Jeff said, no, I don't wantto go either.
And I said, I'm telling Ma.
And I turned on my heels andsort of storming out, annoyed.
And I guess from my brother'stelling, he thought twice about
it, didn't want to get introuble, jumped up and decided
he would walk me home.
So we went home and, you know,home was probably, I mean,
(25:40):
Andy's house was only a couplehundred feet.
You could see Andy's house fromthe pool parking lot.
So, and my house, my unit was,you know, just diagonal to
Andy's across a little bit of abasketball court.
So our house wasn't far.
It was probably not even aquarter mile to my house, to our
unit.
So we went home around two and Ithink we had every intention of
(26:00):
coming back.
I know we did because, you know,that's normally what we would
do, but I think it was justprobably so hot.
You get home, you eat, and thenyou're like, oh, I'm actually
tired.
You know, you start watching TVand we just never made it back
to the pool.
And I remember later in the day,my brother Jeff saying something
to me like, oh, Andy's mom'slooking for him.
And I was like, really?
You know, it was around dinnertime.
(26:21):
And I was like, oh, you know,and I thought he was going to
get in trouble, right?
I'm like, oh, he's in trouble,right?
We know that if we didn't showup for dinner, we're going to be
in trouble.
So that was about it.
And then, you know, didwhatever, you know, watched TV
that night, probably, you know,solid gold dancers and, you
know, happy days or somethinglike that, who knows, and went
to bed.
It was a Sunday night and wentto bed.
And at some time in the morning,you know, in the darkness, my
(26:44):
mother woke us up and brought usdownstairs to the kitchen table,
and there was a police officerthere, and he was asking us if
we had seen Andy, when was thelast time we were with him, what
had he been wearing, just sortof all of that.
And I remember being...
puzzled by it.
And it was so interestingbecause the next morning it was
still just before the, you know,the alarm really started to
(27:06):
ring.
And once that happened, thewhole projects changed and it
was like a cacophony of soundand, you know, helicopters and
low flying airplanes andnational guard and people
yelling Andy's name and justlike, you know, horror.
But just before that, thatquiet, just before that, I
remember my first thought being,Maybe he was taken by a rich
(27:30):
family, right?
Maybe he was taken by a richfamily and like the little
princess, right?
Like that he was going to belike, he's going to go to Disney
all the time, right?
Like it was just sort of thiskid's thing of like, maybe, you
know, and it was so, such a, youknow, strange thought to think,
but it was sort of the firstthought.
And then, and maybe it was a wayof comforting myself.
(27:52):
And then, you know, otherwise Ithought he was going to be in
trouble.
Like I didn't think somebody hadtaken him.
I thought he had done somethingwrong and he was going to get in
trouble and that was it.
And then we were off andrunning, you know, once the
search started, then it was awhole different, a whole
different ballgame.
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Have you since made the connection with whatever
that odd feeling was for youthat day was maybe some kind of
foreboding about danger lurkingaround you?
I know it sounds very movie ofthe week, but it's legitimate.
SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
No, I don't think it sounds movie of the week.
I think the kids are way moresensitive to that stuff than the
rest of us are.
And I now as an adult,especially, you know, an adult
in my third act, if you will,I'm trying to pay a lot more
attention to that intuition thatwe all have in that sense that
we all have of the connectivityand you know, what's around us
and what have you.
And yeah, in retrospect, I dothink that my alarm was going
(28:48):
off.
There was some inner knowing ofdanger around me because I'm,
didn't want to walk home alone.
And it's interesting because nowwhen I try to figure things out
about what was going on in theprojects and stuff like that, I
actually literally walk myselfthrough the projects mentally.
And I let my body feel where Iknew not to go, right?
(29:10):
Because the kids knew for themost part where not to go,
right?
Or where, you know, there wassuspicious activity or where,
you know what I mean?
Like we sort of, you have asense of that.
And so as I look at what washappening in the projects and
sort of considering the biggerpicture.
I do go back to that childintuition a lot and think, well,
you know, who made youuncomfortable or, you know,
(29:31):
where did you send sort of anyof these things?
And, and in retrospect, I alsothink that was probably part of
what was going on with Andy.
When I say there's a shadowabout him, right.
I think that there was somethinggoing on with him that maybe he
was protecting other kids from,it would be very like him to be
doing that.
in terms of protecting kids.
(29:53):
So I don't really know, butyeah, I do.
And I also really, I do thinkthat, you know, now as I'm
older, I think about sort of,again, Carl Jung and the
collective unconscious, right?
That's a famous psychoanalystwho was a student of Freud.
And I always was reallyinterested in his theories and
sort of the way that we're allconnected and how we're all sort
(30:15):
of part of the universe, if youwill.
And today I think that it's nota coincidence that I do this
work.
You know, I think that when Andydisappeared after that horror
show of a search and, you know,witnessing it as a nine-year-old
little girl being really likeone of the most stark memories I
(30:36):
have is standing underneath thistree outside of my bedroom that
was friend to me.
I love that tree.
I brought my kids to meet thetree.
It's so funny.
I'm so corny now as an adult.
But this tree meant a lot to me.
It sounds corny, but I'd be inmy room and it would make
shadows on my wall.
And I just liked it.
I liked nature.
There wasn't a lot of it in theprojects.
Now I use it to heal myself whenI'm out in the community walking
(30:59):
and all that stuff.
Nature is really healing.
And it was sort of this littlepiece of nature in my bedroom
window, if you will.
And so I liked this tree.
It sounds corny, but, and Iwould never say it to any of the
project kids and anybody outthere listening, that's a
project kid.
Don't make fun of me.
I don't care.
It was my tree layoff.
You know, I was standing underthe, this tree and I was looking
(31:19):
over at Andy's unit, which as Isaid, was diagonal to me.
And I just could not wrap mymind around the fact that they
had stopped looking for him.
Like, how do you stop lookingfor somebody?
And how does somebody, he didn'tjust disappear.
Like people don't just vanish.
I mean, I knew that, like youcouldn't just disappear.
So I didn't get it.
(31:41):
I just didn't get it.
And I, and I said to myself andto my tree with really firm,
Like when I grow up, I'm goingto find him, you know, and I
meant it.
And I didn't think that it wouldturn into this, right?
Like I didn't think I, you know,but I love that little girl now.
(32:01):
You know, now I've grown to lovethat little girl through a lot
of trauma therapy and through alot of other stuff.
I've grown to love that littlegirl.
And I think the conviction ofthat nine-year-old little girl,
you know, and that turned intowhat it is today, you know,
looking for this friend becauseknowing that it was wrong, that
it was wrong that the search hadbeen called off, that it was
wrong that he hadn't been found,that it was wrong that kids in
(32:23):
the project were treated as lessthan.
And, you know, that all of thatwas wrong.
And so today I can do somethingabout it.
And I am.
You were the
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
one who discovered his actual date of disappearance
was not Saturday the 21st.
It was, in fact, Sunday the22nd, which, as we know, all of
that is very pertinent to aninvestigation.
It has to do with alibis andwhere people were.
And how did that happen?
It
SPEAKER_02 (32:51):
has to do with a million different things,
really.
Alibis where people were, whattime the pool closed, a whole
bunch of things.
So it's really interesting.
And it's actually a bone ofcontention because some of
Andy's family members don't wantto believe this at this point.
And so I'm actually working onjust getting them the evidence
to prove it because I havephysical evidence to prove it.
Trauma does a lot to our brains,right?
(33:12):
But also they don't trust thepolice.
So they're like, just becausethis police dispatch report says
it doesn't mean that the policecould have changed it.
And she's right.
There was some funky stuff goingon with the police.
It's not just the police report.
I have more than that.
I have a news story from anindependent news station that
talks about the datespecifically.
And then we have an eyewitness.
When I first started researchingAndy's disappearance, which was
(33:33):
in 1998, I...
had the experience ofresearching because I had been a
researcher on documentary filmsfor 15 years at that point.
So I had done a lot of research,a lot of archival research, a
lot of documentary research,going to the National Archives.
(33:53):
I mean, I knew how to doresearch.
And so I started researching hisdisappearance and building files
and categorizing things and whathave you.
And I was noticing a discrepancyin some of the material.
Like some of the newspaperarticles would say Andy's
disappearance was on August22nd.
(34:16):
And some of them would say itwas on August 21st or, you know,
police reports would say August22nd and some of them would say
24.
It was just like that.
It was.
And so after a while, I rememberasking Andy, Andy's mother,
Faith, what date was it?
And the National Center forMissing and Exploded Children
had the date of Andy'sdisappearance as August 21st,
(34:39):
1976, on all of their material.
But remember, the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploded
Children was not created until1982.
So that was six years after Andyhad disappeared.
And it wasn't until the late80s, really, that police were
encouraged, if not required, toenter missing children
information into the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploited
(35:02):
Children.
So they were adding kidsretrospectively in terms of the
early, the 70s.
And so it could very well bethat whoever added Andy's
information in to the NationalCenter for Missing and Exploited
Children either just read anewspaper article to get the
date or was looking at somethingto get the date and just, you
(35:23):
know, got the wrong date bymistake, or it could be that
somebody gave them the wrongdate on purpose.
It's hard to know.
Late 1990s, early in theproject, I asked Faith if she
knew the date and she said itwas the 21st.
And I said, are you sure?
And she said, of course, I know.
I'm sure.
You know, I know the date my sonwent missing.
(35:43):
And I said, yes, of course.
I'm sorry.
I even asked.
And that was the end of it.
Yeah.
(36:09):
By this time, the world hadchanged from analog editing to
digital editing, which wasfairly new in 2005, 2006.
So it was a big differencethough, because you could take
audio and scrub it and listen toevery teeny tiny little bit of
it.
Whereas before, if you werelistening to it, you would have
(36:29):
to use an audio tape, you know,get it converted.
It would just slip.
There was tape slippage.
You would never get right on thebreath, right?
Like it didn't work that way, asyou know, from working in radio.
So there were these tapes fromWayne Chapman that we had
secured that were audio tapeswhen they were initially taken
from him when he was arrested in1977.
(36:50):
And Wayne W.
Chapman was one of the mainsuspects in Andy Puglisi's
disappearance.
So there were audio tapes of himrecording himself and of an
interrogation of him shortlyafter he was arrested in upstate
New York.
And in the interrogation, he istalking about taking a child
from a pool.
And I always thought that hesaid, I took the child from a
(37:15):
pool with a towel.
And we had sent out these tapesto transcriptionists, right?
But they couldn't, Chapman has alittle bit of an accent.
The tapes were not the bestquality, you know?
So there would be times whenthey would just have
unintelligible written in thetranscript.
And this was one of those times.
So we assumed it said, I tookthe boy from the pool with a
towel.
(37:35):
And it wasn't until my editorwas editing this audio into the
fine cut of the film that Iremember, like it was yesterday,
I was downstairs making lunchfor us and she came downstairs.
Now she didn't know that I wasworking on this angle.
I was researching somethingwhere a boy had told me he had
been with Andy when he wasabducted and he had witnessed
(37:57):
his abduction.
Wow.
(38:21):
which was huge because the boythat said he had witnessed
Andy's abduction was six yearsyounger than him.
He was a four-year-old at thetime.
He's a grown man, obviously,today.
And his story has not changed inall those years.
In all the 30-plus years, he'shad the same story.
I can tell you more about thestory if you want, but I won't
get into it now.
(38:42):
People can also watch the film,what have you.
But essentially, the boy said hehad witnessed Andy's abduction,
and he had been with him, and hehad details of his abduction.
And he said, at the end of himwitnessing the abduction, he
said, Andy saved his life.
He was pushing him up this hillto get away from these men that
were chasing them.
The boy gets to the top of thehill, and nobody's there.
(39:05):
He wants to cry for help, and hesays, nobody's there.
And I think, I don't know if Ibelieve this kid, because I knew
at this point that August 21stwas a Saturday.
Yeah.
(39:35):
As I went out and interviewedthis person and talked with him
more and believed more of hisstory because he is so
convincing and he's neverchanged his story and he had
some data.
He had a nervous breakdown inseventh grade telling people the
same story.
All of it was the same that Idecided to just sort of check
the discrepancy again.
What is going on?
(39:55):
Was this a Saturday or a Sunday?
And I think I looked at one ofthe police reports and I noticed
that it said a Sunday.
August 22nd.
And so I called Faith back and Isaid, is there any chance this
was August 22nd, a Sunday?
And at that point, she was like,you know what?
I don't even know.
So much time has passed.
I don't know.
I always thought it was August21st, but maybe that's just
(40:18):
because of what I was told andwhat I saw.
I don't really know.
And I said, okay, well, it's areally important piece of
information because if thisoccurred on a Sunday, then this
kid's story would be moreBecause coming up from, you
know, behind the pool at 5.30 or6, the pool would have been
empty on a Sunday.
It closed at like 5.
So it was substantially validatehis story in my eyes.
(40:41):
And so...
I chose to move forward with hisstory and include him in the
film because he is so believableand because he also identified
Wayne Chapman as the man whoapproached them initially.
And Wayne Chapman wasapproaching a number of people
at the pool that day, accordingto a number of eyewitnesses.
So I included his story in thedocumentary and that was that
(41:03):
pretty much.
And then more recently when Iwas working on the podcast, I
have been spending some timedoing some additional research
because this story is such thatthe research is never done.
Like the more you dig, the moreyou find.
And like I keep trying to get tothe end of this research, this
(41:24):
story, if you will, and it'snever going to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (41:26):
There's no end to these stories.
SPEAKER_02 (41:28):
There is no end to these stories.
There's no end to these storiesand there's no end to–
unfortunately what I believeAndy became a part of and was
involved in, not involved in, inthe sense that he was, you know,
doing things himself, but thathe became part of this organized
human trafficking of children, Ibelieve.
And so I started to do some moreresearch around that theory
(41:50):
because, you know, it had poppedup so many times since the time
the film was released in 2007,there was so much, even at the
end of the film, you can tellthat I am uncovering more.
And, you know, I talk about the,child sex trafficking ring in
Revere, Massachusetts, that wasbroken up in 1977 and formed the
North American Man-Boy LoveAssociation.
(42:12):
That's the end of the film.
That's the last part of the filmwhere I say there's all these
unidentified children's remainsand so on and so forth.
So I knew the story wasn'tending.
And I started to really diveinto this organized nature.
And again, you can listen to thepodcast and understand more
about how I came to the point ofthe historical trafficking of
(42:36):
children in Massachusetts and,you know, where that all derived
from, but suffices to say it wasdecades of research, decades of
research, very intensive.
And the podcast really bringsthat research to you.
Open investigation really sharesthe data.
It was important for me to sharethe data and the facts.
I wanted people to know thatthis is not just, you know, It's
(42:59):
not just sort of an idea.
It's proven, in fact, in so manydifferent ways that there was,
for sure, trafficking ofchildren in Massachusetts in the
1970s, without a doubt.
And for sure, there are at least27 unsolved missing and murdered
children cases in Massachusetts.
And for sure, there are at least27 unsolved missing and murdered
(43:20):
children's cases fromMassachusetts in the 1970s.
Going back before Andydisappeared.
before Andy disappeared.
And, you know, that's just theseventies.
And that's just what I was ableto uncover.
I'm sure that there are ones, asI say, in the podcast, there's
information that slips throughthe database and falls to the
cracks for any number of reasonsto the dataset and falls to the
cracks for any number of reasonslike Denise Cochran, who
(43:43):
continues to haunt me.
Right.
So, um, and that's only theseventies.
We're not talking about thesixties and the fifties, you
know, we're not talking aboutall those, you know, earlier
times, but, um, You know, humantrafficking was a billion-dollar
industry in the 1970s inAmerica, and people just don't
realize that.
And so the podcast really getsinto the deep dive of that.
And as I'm researching for thepodcast, this organized nature,
(44:06):
I really start looking throughold records that I hadn't had
access to before.
And I became really interestedin finding out whether this was
the 21st or 22nd.
And so I ended up finding apolice log, a dispatch log, has
the time of dispatch at 1140time of police dispatch to talk
(44:27):
to faith about her child whowent missing that day at 3 30 PM
was the last time they werereported seeing him.
The dispatch log has the policedispatch to faith that around,
you know, I don't have it infront of me.
I read it from the podcast, butit's 1130, 1140 PM that night,
the police go to faith and Andthen they say, right on the log,
(44:52):
no report filed at this time.
So they take the information,but they don't even file a
report.
And interestingly, one of thepolice, one of the people that
took that report on that sameday at 1130 p.m.
on that Sunday, August 22nd.
was a police officer who wassubsequently found to be in a
compromising position with ateenage boy from the project.
(45:14):
So a police officer who is saidto be a pedophile took the
report that Andy was missing anddecided not to file the
information the evening theytook the report.
And that police dispatch logclearly says Sunday, August
22nd.
So I was like, okay, there'sthat piece of information, but
like with any good journalist,you need a second source, right?
(45:34):
What's another piece ofinformation?
And then I ended up finding thisstory, this old news story from
a local news station.
And it's a reporter shot onfilm.
It's interesting because it'sout of sync, right?
You have to record the audio andfilm differently back in the
day.
And it's out of sync andeverything else.
And I got this news report fromthe day after Andy disappeared.
(45:56):
And it is so incredible.
Faith looks like she's about 12years old.
She's really very much affectedby her trauma.
You can see she's just like likethe child who witnessed Andy's
abduction.
In his interview, you see himvery sort of stoically looking
at the camera with his eyes.
He barely blinks as he's tellingthe story.
And that's how Faith is in thisinterview with this reporter.
(46:19):
She's barely blinking.
She's just very matter-of-facttrying to tell the story, which
is, again, very much a traumaresponse.
And the reporter clearly saysit's Monday, the day after Andy
disappeared from the swimmingpool.
Monday, August 23rd, the dayafter Andy Puglisi disappeared
from the swimming pool inLawrence.
So that was my second question.
(46:39):
piece of corroboratinginformation.
But interestingly, since then,you know, so then the National
Center for Missing and ExploitedChildren got this information
from the police department, fromthe state police saying, you
know, this date was wrong andthey fixed it with NCMEC, with
the National Center for Missingand Exploited Children.
But interestingly, since then,you know, Andy's mom and dad
(47:01):
have not agreed with that.
They now feel like Saturday the21st was the day he disappeared.
And his dad says something abouthe was working that Saturday.
And so he was at work at thattime.
So he remembers that.
And, you know, the police gotinformation wrong.
So they probably got this wrong.
And so I understand that.
And, you know, the family isentitled to their opinions of
(47:22):
everything.
And they were there and theylived it.
It's not, you know, just theiropinion.
But we also know that traumamemory can be faulty, right?
And it can have All kinds ofissues.
So I would never want to saythat Andy's parents are
incorrect in the information.
All I can say is that these arethe two documents that I found
that say that it was Sunday,August 22nd.
(47:43):
And also, you know, the youngman, Ray, who says he was with
Andy the day he disappeared.
His story is also sort ofcorroborating that it was Sunday
because there was no one at thepool when he says he came back
from Witnessing that abductionwhere Andy saved his life.
So it's a strange set ofcircumstances and it leads to
all kinds of questions becausethat little mistake, whether it
(48:05):
was an accidental mistake or apurposeful mistake, at this
point, it doesn't really matter.
It's lost to the years, but itcaused a lot of issue because
people's alibis, right?
Like where were you on Saturdayversus where were you on Sunday
is a whole different question,right?
And so there's all of that.
And at this point, do I thinkwe're going to find the person
(48:28):
that abducted Andy and be ableto hold him responsible or her
responsible?
I don't.
But what I do believe is thatwe'll find more answers to what
happened to Andy and along theselines of what we've talked about
in the podcast, I believe.
And also, I still very much holdout hope that we will bring
Andy's remains home for his lifeto be celebrated and for him to
(48:53):
be put to rest and for hisfamily to be able to have a
place to go to be with him.
And, you know, every family hasa right to be able to put their
loved one to rest.
SPEAKER_00 (49:04):
And
SPEAKER_02 (49:05):
I believe that that will still happen for Andy and I
always
SPEAKER_01 (49:08):
have.
There are many important thingsto bring up when it comes to
cases like Andy's and childrenlike Andy's and family members
that have gone through thingslike the Puglisi's have.
One of the things that we'refinding more recently due to DNA
and the technology, astechnology continues to grow,
and I know that you've said thisa number of times, and you have
(49:30):
impressed this upon the Puglisifamily to make sure that they
have information, that they haveDNA in the database.
So as we continue to find, youknow, there are remains of
people found all the time.
It may not be highly publicized,but we're seeing more and more
of these cases be brought to aclose because of DNA evidence.
SPEAKER_02 (49:53):
Right, and part of the issue with unidentified
remains or remains that havebeen found is that there isn't,
like we say in the film and evenin the podcast, there isn't a
system in place really for howto deal with these unidentified
remains, which is a biggerissue, right?
And so if remains are found,there are literally, like we
talked with a forensicanthropologist out of another
(50:14):
state not Massachusetts.
And they were sharing with usthat there are literally, you
know, remains in laboratoriesand funeral homes at the
national center for missing andsplit children in police
officers, desk drawers.
I mean, literally unclaimed,unrecorded, you know, and these
all need to be in a system likename us where the information is
put into the system.
(50:35):
And so that families who are, Ithink it's 23andMe.com.
(51:00):
you can check off that you wantthem to go ahead and send that
profile to GEDmatch.
And that's what we recently didwith Andy's mom, because over a
decade ago, we begged police totake a DNA sample from Andy's
mom and put it into CODIS, whichis the criminal offender
database information system.
And so, or crime offender, Idon't know exactly the acronym,
(51:22):
but CODIS is the national lawenforcement database system.
So CODIS, They did.
They had state police come outwhere she lives in the state
that she lives in and take herDNA.
And, you know, they processed itand put it into CODIS.
And I thought that meant that,oh, okay, every time there's an
unidentified remains, you know,put into CODIS, it checks to see
(51:43):
if it matches Andy's mom.
And then, nope, it doesn't, youknow, okay.
And that's not true.
That's not what happens.
You have to have someone fromlaw enforcement actively say,
oh, run this remain, you know,this bone that was found in
Tennessee against FaithPuglisi's DNA, from what I
(52:03):
understand, to see if itpotentially is this kid.
Now, they say there are some Youknow, there are some ways that
they run it, and I'm hoping withartificial intelligence that
will happen more and more, but Ijust don't think it's a system
that exists today.
So the best bet today is, youknow, getting the remains into a
NEMA system, which is alsoattached to, you know, GEDmatch
(52:25):
and searches GEDmatch and havingfamily members' DNA in the
GEDmatch so that unidentifiedremains can be compared to
missing persons' DNA.
And if folks don't know how todo that and they're listening,
they can contact their localpolice department.
Right.
(52:59):
there are sites that do that.
And even now, you know, the coldcase unit has started to have
events where they're hostingevents that families can attend,
where they can give their DNAsample to help with these
unidentified remains.
And so I think there's a lot, alot, a lot of remains that have
been found over the years thathave not been identified.
And I think we'll see more ofthat over the, you know, the
next decades.
(53:21):
We see it all the time, 50 yearold, you know, crime solved.
And every time I see that I postit on our, on our social media,
because it just gives me that,bit of hope.
And I'm sure, you know, givesAndy's family that bit of hope
that it doesn't matter how longhas passed, you know, he's
coming home and we'll stilladvocate and continue to
advocate for that and believethat.
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
It is completely possible for these cases, cases
like Andy's.
We've seen it.
The longest unsolved cold case,unidentified persons in the The
state of Massachusetts was theLady of the Dunes, who now has
an identity, Ruth Marie Terry.
And we now know the cause of herdeath, the person she was
(54:02):
married to, closed case, whosubsequently we found out is
dead.
So they face no repercussions.
But that person who'sresponsible for Ruth Marie
Terry's death is probablyresponsible for others' deaths.
You know, another case veryclose to home for us is the Bear
Brook murders.
We know the identity of three ofthe four people.
(54:24):
There's one child we still don'tknow, but I believe very soon we
will know.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
I believe that too.
And I mean, there's no reasonthat we shouldn't now with
family, you know, geneticgenealogy and family, you know,
familial DNA.
I think there's no reason thatwe should know that.
But, you know, the other thingis that the advocacy piece is
really important because thereare costs involved.
Money, you know, is an issue.
It comes down to money too,right?
So, you know, if a bone isfound, for example, you know,
(54:51):
there was a priest, if youremember in the podcast, there
was a priest that told me thatAndy was dead and that we would
never find him unless someonehappened upon his bones while
they were walking their dog inthe woods.
And I said, what woods?
And he was like, I don't know.
That's specific.
I was like, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (55:07):
That's oddly specific.
It was
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
oddly specific, frankly.
And also very full ofconviction.
Like when I said, how do youknow?
When he's dead, he said, I know.
And I said, how do you know?
He said, I know.
And I said, but I understandyou're saying I know.
I said, but tell me, how do youknow?
And he got firm and he said, Iknow.
And then he kind of smirked.
Somebody could be in the woodsand come across...
(55:29):
A bone and wonder if it's humanremains or not.
If that ever happens, please,you know, err on the side of
caution and get the bone to thepolice.
They can get an expert todetermine whether it is human or
not.
I encourage you very much ifyou're going to do that, though,
keep a picture of the bone, youknow, keep a documentation of
(55:50):
the police in the meeting
SPEAKER_01 (55:52):
so that you found it.
SPEAKER_02 (55:53):
where you found it, of course, and also having given
it to the police and asked themto make a record of that so that
it's all documented and you havethat information.
But then it's in the hands oflaw enforcement to decide what
they're going to do with thatbone.
And it depends on whose budgetis going to pay for that
unidentified remains to betested.
(56:14):
And people don't have unlimitedbudgets, right?
And so that's another piece ofadvocacy we could be doing
legislative advocacy level wherewe require that any remains
found are tested, right?
That they have to be tested.
I don't know that that's thecase today.
I mean, one would think thatthey would be, but again, you
know, there are other pressingbudget items and it all depends.
(56:35):
It's at the discretion, I wouldassume, of the district
attorney, whether they want todo that.
So these are all issues that wehave to face when we're
advocating for missing persons.
And Angel, we've worked togetherand with Dr.
Anne-Marie Myers and other folksto enlight the way and other
folks to create the Mass Missingand Murdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition, MPAC.
(56:56):
And we really just sort ofidentified it last year and sort
of have branded it and arewanting to move forward with it.
And the whole purpose is to beable to empower families to get
legislation to move their casesforward and to understand
legislative advocacy and whyit's important and you know, how
to change systems.
And we really want to teachfolks that.
(57:17):
And we really encourage folksif, you know, you're interested
in MPAC, please reach out to useither, you know, Angel's email
website oropeninvestigationpodcast.com.
You can email me or Angel andwe'll give you information and
we're collecting folks who areinterested in advocating with us
through MPAC.
And also, Thank you so much.
(57:54):
Parents directly are no longeraround, but maybe the siblings
are.
And I don't think these peopleunderstand the power of their
voice and the power of theirstory.
If you come to the statehouse orvideotape talking about your
story and people understand theimpact that this has had on you
all of these years and why theselaws need to happen, it really
can make a difference.
And we really do want to make adifference for everyone's child
(58:17):
and everyone's missing personout there.
SPEAKER_01 (58:24):
Thank you, Melanie.
OpenInvestigationPodcast.comHaveYouSeenAndy.com To learn
more about MPAC,MassMissingAndMurdered.org We
will be hosting a MissingPersons Day this spring.
We will also be in attendancefor any and hopefully all of the
(58:48):
Massachusetts State PoliceFamily Days.
where we invite families ofmissing and murdered loved ones
to come.
The first of its kind happenedin November, and I submitted my
own DNA.
I met a woman from GEDmatch, andwe talked about much of this
technology and the work thatthey're doing and bringing
(59:12):
answers to families who've beenlanguishing, some for decades.
My name is Angel Wood.
Thank you for listening.
This is Crime of the TruestKinds, Massachusetts and New
England crime stories.
I talk about historical kinds ofthings.
And advocacy.
A-B-A.
Always be advocating.
(59:36):
Follow the show at Crime of theTruest Kinds on all the places.
Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky,TikTok, YouTube.
Thank you to Patreon supporters.
I am revamping some things hereon the show.
Special shouts to superstar LisaMcColgan.
I have some revamps in thePatreon department coming your
(59:58):
way.
And a new look for the show.
That is all planned for thisfirst quarter-ish of 2025.
And I will be going toAdvocacyCon, the first
conference of its kind,happening in Indianapolis at the
(01:00:19):
end of March.
It is exactly what it soundslike.
It's an advocacy conferenceabout people who advocate in
this crime space for families.
I will be taking Crime of theTruest Kind and MPAC,
Massachusetts Missing andMurdered Persons Advocacy
Coalition.
It is advocacy in action.
(01:00:41):
All right.
Thank you for listening.
I'll be back next week with parttwo of my conversation with
Melanie Perkins McLaughlin.
host and creator of OpenInvestigation.
All right, take care ofyourself.
It is okay to shut everythingdown if you need it.
It's okay to close the computer,shut down the social media, give
(01:01:05):
yourself a breather.
There is a lot going on in theworld.
Okay, I must be going.
Lock your goddamn doors.
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