February 7, 2025 • 26 mins
In this episode, Sam talks with Dr. Kate Oswald Wilkins, Dean of General Education, Common Learning, and Academic Support, and Professor of Communication, about parasocial relationships in the context of the field of communication!
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Speaker 1 (00:23):
Welcome to the third episode of Parasocial Paradigm, the podcast
we explore how parasocial relationships shape our realities and our
perceptions of the world around us. I'm your host, Sam Ericson.
In today's episode, we have a special guest with us.
You know, I say special, but actually you are like
the best, I think, the best person to be talking
(00:45):
with about this, doctor Kate Oswald Wilkins. Actually should I
let you introduce yourself instead of just me talking?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I mean, you're the boss, Sam, that's your show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
All right, all right, okay, Well, doctor Wilkins is fantastic.
She's the dean of General Education, Common Learning, and academic
support here Messiah, as well as being a professor of communication.
I had her for both semesters last year and I'm
just thrilled that you're here today. So thank you for
being here. And just for some context, I think people
(01:18):
the you know, two people that listen to this, or
you know, my mom and my dad, you know, just
to get just to give some context, you know. I
I learned about parasocial relationships in your class as a
theoretical concept, and at first I was just like, well,
this is this is kind of cool. Like, you know,
(01:40):
I could see the patterns of it in my own life.
And then last semester, you know, I did I did
my own research as part of my senior capstone project
on what it was. It was kind of like a
case study on Taylor Swift. But it was all because
of you. So thank you. I I have this podcast,
my research all because of you, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And parasocial relationship theories.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's right, right, Yeah, which is which is the best?
Which is the best? So in this episode, it'll be
a little bit different than previous previous episodes. If you've
been listening, you know where I've just talked for ten
to fifteen minutes. But this will be kind of a
Q and A. Okay, so I'll just ask you a
few questions and yeah, we'll go from there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
With that said, let's get into the episode. So my
first question is about the reality of parasocial relationships because
they feel real to the person that's engaging, you know,
with the media figure or influencer. So why do you
think parasocial interactions feel so real to us even when
(02:48):
they are one sided because they're not interpersonal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So I think one key to the real feeling of
parasocial relations chips is their media richness. To use another
media term, camera angles that are used in film, for example,
help us imagine the scene through the eyes of the character,
(03:12):
so we identify with them closely because we see what
they're seeing. We see characters or you know, if we're
if we're looking at you know, someone's YouTube videos that
they shoot in their bedroom, we're seeing them in their
private environments, and so psychologically we associate that with intimacy
(03:33):
and closeness. Typically we're taking those things in in our
own personal environments too, and I think it tricks our
brain a little bit that that we feel that sense
of closeness because we associate intimate environments and seeing things
from a person's eyes with interpersonal closeness. So psychologically it
(03:53):
just feels very similar. So we're kind of tricked.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, I like, I like the East said, we're tricked
because that's exactly what it is. And I've talked about
this in previous episodes where it's kind of this illusion,
but that's what it is. It's an illusion of relationship
as opposed to a real tangible like you know, you
and I are sitting across from each other right now.
This is an interpersonal interaction, you know, whereas I'm gonna
(04:19):
use I know, I've used Taylor Swift again and again
and again and people are probably sick of it. But
she's the best. I mean, she's one of the best
examples of this, where Like, people see her online and
they're going, you know, they're they're basing this relationship off of, oh,
Taylor's in her home, you know, showing this behind the
scenes video of like here's a day in my life.
(04:40):
But it's not the same. It's not it's not. It's
not the same as you know, you and I sitting
together here having a genuine conversation where you're interested, I hope,
and what I have to say, and you know, and
I'm interested in what you have to say, whereas like, again,
please Swifty fans are whenever you're called. Don't come at
(05:01):
me for saying this. But most of the time, like
Taylor Swift and these other influencers or celebrities don't really
care about, you know, what's happening in our daily lives.
They don't care to hear about what happened in our day.
I mean, and even if they.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Did, they don't have access, oh, no, to us, And
that's the point.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
No, thank you, is that is important. I don't know
if I've touched about that. Yeah, they don't have We
have access to them, but they don't. They don't have
the same access to us unless you happen to be
friends with the celebrity, and that's not even a parasoxical relationship.
Then that's just a interpersonal relationship. My next question is
a little bit more in depth, kind of going off
(05:40):
the first, but what role do you think that our
innate need as humans for connection and belonging play in
the development of parasocial relationships?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, I think in a way you kind of answer
your own question in the form of the question. We're
wired for connection and belonging. It's just part of being human.
So I think our brains are motivated by those feelings
that we get when we are getting to know someone,
(06:14):
because it feels like intimacy, it feels like closeness, it
feels like belonging, even if those feelings are one sided
and simulated, so maybe less so than important in important
relationships in our lives, Like we don't get the same
feeling as we do from an interpersonal interaction. But at
(06:36):
the same time, parasocial interactions. One sided interactions also don't
have the consequences and pitfalls of face to face interaction,
right because face to face interactions can be awkward, we
can face rejection, but parasocial connection has none of that.
Get we just get an albeit small hit of the
(07:00):
good part of closeness and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah. Yeah, I talked a little about this on the Yeah,
I think in previous episodes or you know, do it
to do a little bit of foreshadowing. I'll talk about
this in future episodes. But that there, there is there
is this sense of you know, when we give a
(07:24):
lot to a celebrity, we give our attention, our time,
our energy, and then we don't receive that back. Mm hmm.
Then that's that's sometimes crushing because we think like, oh,
you know, they care about me what not? Really not,
not in the same way that we wish they would.
So it's it's an interesting an interesting line to walk
(07:47):
or tight rope to walk. I'm trying to do a
cool analogy and I but you know, that's the idea
that you know, we we don't we don't want to
cross that line and make a mistake, something that's not
a real genuine relationship. For a real genuine relationship.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Well, and maybe that's why you hear about like stalking situations. Yeah, yeah,
because it feels so real that you want to make
it real, and so people when they're not healthy sometimes
pursue it in inappropriate ways.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Exactly. Celebrities exactly. And that's that's perfect for my for
my next question. We're just cooking right along here, I mean,
we're rolling, We're we're a couple of minutes into this. Well,
oh man, eight minutes. We've already been talking for eight minutes.
That's crazy. This, this is what happens. So doctor Wilkins
and I I think, I think we get along well.
And we we always, you know, every day, every time
(08:43):
we talk. I feel like it's just like we're so
focused in the conversation. And I just look down at
my running time and we're eight minutes and thirty seconds
into the podcast. I'm just this is crazy. This is
just great. I'm glad that we're having this conversation effect.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, hopefully for the audience as.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, Yes, yeah, hopefully hopefully you haven't tuned out by now. Actually,
I think this is probably the most entertaining episode yet,
I'd argue because people are probably tired of just listening
to me. So this is good. Going along with what
you were talking about with stalking, you know, I've I've
(09:18):
talked about fans feeling entitled to access of information for influencers,
private life, a celebrity and whatever I want to call it,
a media figure that and that I think that's kind
of the basis for stalking, Like they feel like they
have this, you know, this right to know everything what's
going on. So why do you think there is this
(09:39):
sense of entitlement And do you think it has something
to do with the personal vulnerable nature of social media
seeing like a celebrity in you know that when they
do show like some glimpse of their actual life that's
not glossed over or perfect, and then they think, oh,
like I know this person that I can go to
their house and you know, not necessarily in a vibe way,
(10:00):
you know, because then there are those that break in,
break into homes, but just for just just for the
sake of, you know, wanting to know things about about
an artists and they feel entitled to know that. So
why aren't you telling me it's it's that kind of thing.
How do you think that plays into it?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, I have been thinking about your idea of of entitled,
and I think maybe more neutrally, we're acting on needs
and desires that we have when we when we seek
out information about uh celebrities that are people that we
don't know through through social media or through whatever media
(10:39):
we're engaging them with.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
And I'm gonna mention a communication theory here.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
So social penetration theory is an interpersonal theory, and it
suggests that the process whereby people form inner personal closeness
happens through disclosure. So, for social penetration theory, disclosure of
personal information equals interpersonal closeness. If I know more information
(11:06):
about you, I feel closer to you. So I can
see where you know, if you want to feel close
to a celebrity through even if it's through parasocial interaction,
you're going to be motivated to get more information. What
do they think about this? What are they doing today?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
What you know? What does their closet look like? Whatever?
That got weird? So I think.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Sometimes it is cool to know, like what do their
houses actually look like? Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Exactly? So we had that curiosity.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
My closet probably doesn't look like a celebrity's closet.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It definitely doesn't mind doesn't either.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
So you know, I think at this basic level, humans
seek out information as a means toward interpersonal closeness.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That's how it happens.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So maybe fans feel entitled to this personal information because
they've come to expect to receive that kind of information.
We've been primed to receive that, and so then we
just want more of it. And certainly when we want
and are driven to get this information.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
To give us that closeness that we seek to feel.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, And you know, closeness has been really warped
with social media, you know, rising in the last whatever
I mean, I don't know, like ten ten years, I
guess is that fair to say like fifteen years where
social media has become this huge part of our lives
(12:31):
and it takes you know, the quiet, intimate moments that
you had to like, you know, however, like two decades ago,
you had to be with the person to know these
things about like you know, what does their closet look like?
What does their kitchen look like? You know, unless unless
they like sent you a picture or something. But now
(12:52):
social media you can post literally anything, whether it's photos, videos,
you know, whatever, right, and people don't.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Know forever seeing your closet or your cat or your
cry face or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
That's right. And do you think that amplifies the intensity
of parasocial relationships?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
You mean, just our ubiquitous use of social media.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yes, yeah, and the access that that gives us.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I think, of course, access to personal information through social
media and the norms we have for revealing all sorts
of information about ourselves. I mean, I think gen z
is much more comfortable and it's just much more normal
to reveal more personal information on socials. You might remember,
(13:39):
since I know you've done research on this, the Pennington
two thousand and eight article Will You Be My Friend,
which is an early study of social media and its
effect on relationship development through the lens of social penetration theory.
And so it argues that social media has evolved the
social penetration process because multiple layers of a person's life,
(14:04):
or according to the theory, you know, layers of your
metaphorical onion are displayed for public consumption. So I can
like peel off these layers that I would have had
to do through interpersonal conversation, right, But so the first
time I actually see you in person, I already know
all of these things about you. So Pennington is arguing
(14:26):
that that's actually changing the social penetration, that changing the
interpersonal closeness process that we even experienced because of this
ubiquity of social media. So you can see why this
could enhance that parasocial relationship effect even with people that
we have the potential to meet in person, not just celebrities.
(14:48):
But I also think it could be a little bit
more complex than that. So one of my brilliant rhetorical
theory students raised this question in class the other day.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, there you go, free plug forever this.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Student, Yeah, and she was talking about the role of
social media in creating we're talking about mystification as a
form of rhetorical power. Is this like distancing effect that
actually creates power with an audience. So we have access
to see celebrities or our crush from biology class or
(15:21):
whatever on socials, but we're also distanced from them, which
creates this kind of allure and attraction and they have.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
This power over us.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So I've wondered kind of which effect is stronger or
what is the interaction effect of those things? So like,
when you get to know someone online and then you
meet them, does the mystification power make you more equipped
for that social interaction or does it make you really
bomb that social interaction because you've you have all of
(15:53):
this like mystification, and then you try to talk to
them and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Stumbling over my words.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I guess you know how much mystification power the person
has over you. But I think both of those could
be at.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Play, No exactly. I mean I think about my own life.
You know, when when I came to Messiah, it was
you know, after the after the pandemic twenty twenty one
was my my first year here, and how I got
to know people was through Instagram, right, And I would
I would tell I would tell people like not to
(16:26):
be creepy, but I know you like, and I would
I would know there, you know, whenever they're tagged.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
You start the statement this way, not to.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Be creepy, and then they're like, they're like, oh great,
it's this guy. Then not to be creepy guy. But
it's it's strange because I don't know it could it
could be. It could be the case. Now, I don't know.
We're a couple of years out of the you know,
quote unquote pandemic time. But for for me, and I
(16:56):
think a lot of a lot of my people my
age and and and like the people that were you know,
either graduating from high school during the pandemic, graduating from college.
We we all have we were entering into this next
part of our lives. We got to know people over
you know, social media, whether it be like whatever platform
(17:17):
you want to you want to use, but it is.
It is crazy because you build up these expectations of
how people are supposed to be based on what you've seen,
and then like there's there's some people that you know,
I I met that I'm like, oh, you know you're
like this in real life, or oh you haven't you
have this inner you have you have this relationship with
(17:39):
this person, Oh you know you're related to this person.
And it's all these things that you can't find out
over a screen, which which I think is is unique
about about gen Z. Now, I'll be honest, I'm not
proud a lot of the time to be part of
gen Z because we get we get a lot of slack,
and I guess all generations do. All generations do.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And I think it's important to remember that that criticism
is usually coming from other generations who may not understand
or identify with that generation.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So I'm I'm.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Really reticent to be like, oh, gen Z, is this
that or the other thing? Like how does gen Z
define themselves? As were my my the question I think
other generations should be asking.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, well, to be honest, I
look at Gen Alpha sometimes and I'm like, I want
to like bleach my eyeballs.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Out now right now you get why these boomers.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's how it feels.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, Like I won't go into it, but like think
skibbety s gibbity this and s gibbitty that, and I'm
just like, oh, my words, I know what does that mean?
And I ask I ask, like, you know, I'll shout
out my cousin who's in East Gen Alpha ten years
younger than I am, and sometimes I'll ask him this
is a little bit of we're getting on a tangent here,
(19:02):
that's okay, but I'll ask him like what what what
is this? What does this mean?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Okay? Now, now, now let's I'll take it back to
to our topic for for gen alpha and for for
generations where things like AI and virtual influencers. I see
this on Instagram. I don't know if you've seen this,
where in the direct messages you have these like AI
(19:32):
characters that like you can make your own character and
talk with them like they're a real person. That just
seems a little bit, I don't know, not frightening, but
kind of strange because you know, we're yeah, exactly exactly
because some someday I hope not, but it has the
potential to take over, you know, for for interpersonal interactions,
(19:56):
But how do you see relationships like parasocial of course first,
but then also even if you want to throw an
interpersonal how do you see like this evolving further as
AI and these virtual influencers become just a part of
our daily life. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
So I think a larger question is or kind of
a larger reality to be aware of, is that anytime
a new media or technology is disseminated into society, everybody
freaks out. Parents, schools, the government, researchers freak out and
want to know what's going to do to people because
(20:38):
they just imagine that it's going to be the end
of civilization and it's going to be off. And but
my point is, like we've thought this before. What are
video games going to do to young people? What are
movies going to do to young people? What is the
telephone going to do? And people we're not going to
see each other face to face, right, So this is
kind of a longer it's an older question than just AI.
(21:03):
So I think that helps me have a little bit
of perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Because humans figure it out.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
And what's interesting to me about AI is is always
the question that raises about what it means to be human.
So rather than focus on that question of like what's it,
what's it going to do to our interpersonal interaction? Is
what does it mean to be human in the age
of AI? And you know, recently I heard on an
(21:29):
episode of a podcast that I listened to called Think Fast,
Talk Smart. It's hosted by Matt Abrahams of Stanford University,
and the interviewer the interview we was talking about how
virtual connection just lacks some important benefits that increase our
(21:50):
sense of interpersonal just well being. So the example was
we don't get the oxytocin boost that positive hormone boost
from a zoom call that we do from coffee or
a hug from a friend, So we still have that need.
And my point is we learn that we can't get
our innerpersonal needs met by virtual relationships based on their
(22:13):
effects on us, we won't be happy and fulfilled in
life unless we have authentic engagement with human beings, both
like both close relationships and just casual interaction with people
throughout the day. And if you, you know, have monitored
how you feel if you have interacted with more people
during the day versus days that you've kind of like,
(22:34):
you know, like stayed at home and didn't interact with anyone.
You know what I'm talking about, So nothing takes its place.
So in that sense, I'm not worried about AI. I'm
worried about AI for other reasons, which I just did
an interview for The Swinging Bridge with Bethany Petric, So
if you want to hear more about that, you can
read that article.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And I at the end of the day, I believe, as.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
A good optimist would, which I am, that human drive
for authentic connection will ultimately prevail. I think my biggest
concern is that I worry about the many unhappy, depressed, anxious,
lonely people out there that lack face to face human
(23:18):
connection and maybe don't realize the extent to which their
use of virtual social band aid is contributing to their loneliness.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. That's a great point.
I mean tying it because it is. We're talking about
pro social relationships here, but really what I want to
talk about is what does it mean to be in
relationship with each other? And then that's really what I'm
getting at, like for this podcast. I know this isn't
the last episode. We still have, you know, two more
to go, but we're a couple more. I don't really know.
(23:51):
I'm tired. It's the last week we're recording this, in
the last week in January. It's Friday, and I saw
something this morning on social media that said January has
been the longest month ever, and it was it was
a picture of Michael Scott from the episode of The
Office where he goes to he goes to the park
(24:12):
by himself, and that's exactly how I feel right now. Anyway, Sorry,
what was what was I talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Oh? Yeah, you're interested in human connection, real human connection,
because I think humans are wired for like picking up
on authenticity exactly. So if we need and we want
and we crave like authentic human connections, like we know
this is fake, so it's not gonna give us at.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
The end of the day what we want.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, yeah, it'll never fulfill us in the same way.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Look, let's just end the podcast there, because that's that's
just that's that's it. That's really all I mean. You
got relationships that that's that's the core. That's the core
of it. We can't survive without being in relationship with
one another. Well we we we can for like like
the times that we need to be apart, because that's important,
(24:59):
but we can't spend our whole entire lives without having
some sort of real connection. So thank you, thank you
for that, Doctor Wilkins. Thank you for this conversation. This
has been lovely. Yes well, thank you listeners also for
joining doctor Wilkins at myself on this episode of Paris
Social Paradigm. Sadly, Doctor Wilkins will not be back next week,
(25:23):
but if you everyone want to talk, we could just
talk and make it into a podcast, or or just
talk if you'd like to get coffee or that's right,
that's right, face to face. Yeah, not over email, not
over any of that. But yeah, thank you very much.
This has been this has been lovely. Thank you, so
thank you. Yeah, be sure to join me next week.
(25:44):
I promise that I'll try and make it as good
as I can. We'll be talking about the dark side
of parasocial relationships, so you know, a little bit more unsettling,
if you will. We talked a little bit about this
in today's episode, like stalking, obsession, emotion a dependencies that
you can you can brace yourself for that or whatever
whatever you want to do. You know, just think of,
(26:07):
you know, some classic examples we'll be talking about, like
mentioning John Lennon, Taylor Swift. I know, I know Taylor Swift,
we're mentioning her again, and a couple a couple other
you know, famous people where they've had like the dark
side of parasocial relationships become their reality. I think John
Lennon is probably the most famous example of that. In
nineteen eighty. Oh great, now I'm dating myself. I promise.
(26:29):
I'm only I'm almost twenty two, so I wasn't alive
in nineteen eighty but man, all right, I'm just done.
I'm done, all right see yah. Until then, thanks for
listening and have a great week.
Welcome to the third episode of Parasocial Paradigm, the podcast
we explore how parasocial relationships shape our realities and our
perceptions of the world around us. I'm your host, Sam Ericson.
In today's episode, we have a special guest with us.
You know, I say special, but actually you are like
the best, I think, the best person to be talking
(00:45):
with about this, doctor Kate Oswald Wilkins. Actually should I
let you introduce yourself instead of just me talking?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I mean, you're the boss, Sam, that's your show.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
All right, all right, okay, Well, doctor Wilkins is fantastic.
She's the dean of General Education, Common Learning, and academic
support here Messiah, as well as being a professor of communication.
I had her for both semesters last year and I'm
just thrilled that you're here today. So thank you for
being here. And just for some context, I think people
(01:18):
the you know, two people that listen to this, or
you know, my mom and my dad, you know, just
to get just to give some context, you know. I
I learned about parasocial relationships in your class as a
theoretical concept, and at first I was just like, well,
this is this is kind of cool. Like, you know,
(01:40):
I could see the patterns of it in my own life.
And then last semester, you know, I did I did
my own research as part of my senior capstone project
on what it was. It was kind of like a
case study on Taylor Swift. But it was all because
of you. So thank you. I I have this podcast,
my research all because of you, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
And parasocial relationship theories.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
That's right, right, Yeah, which is which is the best?
Which is the best? So in this episode, it'll be
a little bit different than previous previous episodes. If you've
been listening, you know where I've just talked for ten
to fifteen minutes. But this will be kind of a
Q and A. Okay, so I'll just ask you a
few questions and yeah, we'll go from there.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
With that said, let's get into the episode. So my
first question is about the reality of parasocial relationships because
they feel real to the person that's engaging, you know,
with the media figure or influencer. So why do you
think parasocial interactions feel so real to us even when
(02:48):
they are one sided because they're not interpersonal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
So I think one key to the real feeling of
parasocial relations chips is their media richness. To use another
media term, camera angles that are used in film, for example,
help us imagine the scene through the eyes of the character,
(03:12):
so we identify with them closely because we see what
they're seeing. We see characters or you know, if we're
if we're looking at you know, someone's YouTube videos that
they shoot in their bedroom, we're seeing them in their
private environments, and so psychologically we associate that with intimacy
(03:33):
and closeness. Typically we're taking those things in in our
own personal environments too, and I think it tricks our
brain a little bit that that we feel that sense
of closeness because we associate intimate environments and seeing things
from a person's eyes with interpersonal closeness. So psychologically it
(03:53):
just feels very similar. So we're kind of tricked.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, I like, I like the East said, we're tricked
because that's exactly what it is. And I've talked about
this in previous episodes where it's kind of this illusion,
but that's what it is. It's an illusion of relationship
as opposed to a real tangible like you know, you
and I are sitting across from each other right now.
This is an interpersonal interaction, you know, whereas I'm gonna
(04:19):
use I know, I've used Taylor Swift again and again
and again and people are probably sick of it. But
she's the best. I mean, she's one of the best
examples of this, where Like, people see her online and
they're going, you know, they're they're basing this relationship off of, oh,
Taylor's in her home, you know, showing this behind the
scenes video of like here's a day in my life.
(04:40):
But it's not the same. It's not it's not. It's
not the same as you know, you and I sitting
together here having a genuine conversation where you're interested, I hope,
and what I have to say, and you know, and
I'm interested in what you have to say, whereas like, again,
please Swifty fans are whenever you're called. Don't come at
(05:01):
me for saying this. But most of the time, like
Taylor Swift and these other influencers or celebrities don't really
care about, you know, what's happening in our daily lives.
They don't care to hear about what happened in our day.
I mean, and even if they.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Did, they don't have access, oh, no, to us, And
that's the point.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
No, thank you, is that is important. I don't know
if I've touched about that. Yeah, they don't have We
have access to them, but they don't. They don't have
the same access to us unless you happen to be
friends with the celebrity, and that's not even a parasoxical relationship.
Then that's just a interpersonal relationship. My next question is
a little bit more in depth, kind of going off
(05:40):
the first, but what role do you think that our
innate need as humans for connection and belonging play in
the development of parasocial relationships?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Yeah, I think in a way you kind of answer
your own question in the form of the question. We're
wired for connection and belonging. It's just part of being human.
So I think our brains are motivated by those feelings
that we get when we are getting to know someone,
(06:14):
because it feels like intimacy, it feels like closeness, it
feels like belonging, even if those feelings are one sided
and simulated, so maybe less so than important in important
relationships in our lives, Like we don't get the same
feeling as we do from an interpersonal interaction. But at
(06:36):
the same time, parasocial interactions. One sided interactions also don't
have the consequences and pitfalls of face to face interaction,
right because face to face interactions can be awkward, we
can face rejection, but parasocial connection has none of that.
Get we just get an albeit small hit of the
(07:00):
good part of closeness and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah. Yeah, I talked a little about this on the Yeah,
I think in previous episodes or you know, do it
to do a little bit of foreshadowing. I'll talk about
this in future episodes. But that there, there is there
is this sense of you know, when we give a
(07:24):
lot to a celebrity, we give our attention, our time,
our energy, and then we don't receive that back. Mm hmm.
Then that's that's sometimes crushing because we think like, oh,
you know, they care about me what not? Really not,
not in the same way that we wish they would.
So it's it's an interesting an interesting line to walk
(07:47):
or tight rope to walk. I'm trying to do a
cool analogy and I but you know, that's the idea
that you know, we we don't we don't want to
cross that line and make a mistake, something that's not
a real genuine relationship. For a real genuine relationship.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Well, and maybe that's why you hear about like stalking situations. Yeah, yeah,
because it feels so real that you want to make
it real, and so people when they're not healthy sometimes
pursue it in inappropriate ways.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Exactly. Celebrities exactly. And that's that's perfect for my for
my next question. We're just cooking right along here, I mean,
we're rolling, We're we're a couple of minutes into this. Well,
oh man, eight minutes. We've already been talking for eight minutes.
That's crazy. This, this is what happens. So doctor Wilkins
and I I think, I think we get along well.
And we we always, you know, every day, every time
(08:43):
we talk. I feel like it's just like we're so
focused in the conversation. And I just look down at
my running time and we're eight minutes and thirty seconds
into the podcast. I'm just this is crazy. This is
just great. I'm glad that we're having this conversation effect.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, hopefully for the audience as.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, Yes, yeah, hopefully hopefully you haven't tuned out by now. Actually,
I think this is probably the most entertaining episode yet,
I'd argue because people are probably tired of just listening
to me. So this is good. Going along with what
you were talking about with stalking, you know, I've I've
(09:18):
talked about fans feeling entitled to access of information for influencers,
private life, a celebrity and whatever I want to call it,
a media figure that and that I think that's kind
of the basis for stalking, Like they feel like they
have this, you know, this right to know everything what's
going on. So why do you think there is this
(09:39):
sense of entitlement And do you think it has something
to do with the personal vulnerable nature of social media
seeing like a celebrity in you know that when they
do show like some glimpse of their actual life that's
not glossed over or perfect, and then they think, oh,
like I know this person that I can go to
their house and you know, not necessarily in a vibe way,
(10:00):
you know, because then there are those that break in,
break into homes, but just for just just for the
sake of, you know, wanting to know things about about
an artists and they feel entitled to know that. So
why aren't you telling me it's it's that kind of thing.
How do you think that plays into it?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, I have been thinking about your idea of of entitled,
and I think maybe more neutrally, we're acting on needs
and desires that we have when we when we seek
out information about uh celebrities that are people that we
don't know through through social media or through whatever media
(10:39):
we're engaging them with.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
And I'm gonna mention a communication theory here.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
So social penetration theory is an interpersonal theory, and it
suggests that the process whereby people form inner personal closeness
happens through disclosure. So, for social penetration theory, disclosure of
personal information equals interpersonal closeness. If I know more information
(11:06):
about you, I feel closer to you. So I can
see where you know, if you want to feel close
to a celebrity through even if it's through parasocial interaction,
you're going to be motivated to get more information. What
do they think about this? What are they doing today?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
What you know? What does their closet look like? Whatever?
That got weird? So I think.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Sometimes it is cool to know, like what do their
houses actually look like? Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Exactly? So we had that curiosity.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
My closet probably doesn't look like a celebrity's closet.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It definitely doesn't mind doesn't either.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
So you know, I think at this basic level, humans
seek out information as a means toward interpersonal closeness.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That's how it happens.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So maybe fans feel entitled to this personal information because
they've come to expect to receive that kind of information.
We've been primed to receive that, and so then we
just want more of it. And certainly when we want
and are driven to get this information.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
To give us that closeness that we seek to feel.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, And you know, closeness has been really warped
with social media, you know, rising in the last whatever
I mean, I don't know, like ten ten years, I
guess is that fair to say like fifteen years where
social media has become this huge part of our lives
(12:31):
and it takes you know, the quiet, intimate moments that
you had to like, you know, however, like two decades ago,
you had to be with the person to know these
things about like you know, what does their closet look like?
What does their kitchen look like? You know, unless unless
they like sent you a picture or something. But now
(12:52):
social media you can post literally anything, whether it's photos, videos,
you know, whatever, right, and people don't.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Know forever seeing your closet or your cat or your
cry face or whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
That's right. And do you think that amplifies the intensity
of parasocial relationships?
Speaker 3 (13:09):
You mean, just our ubiquitous use of social media.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yes, yeah, and the access that that gives us.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
I think, of course, access to personal information through social
media and the norms we have for revealing all sorts
of information about ourselves. I mean, I think gen z
is much more comfortable and it's just much more normal
to reveal more personal information on socials. You might remember,
(13:39):
since I know you've done research on this, the Pennington
two thousand and eight article Will You Be My Friend,
which is an early study of social media and its
effect on relationship development through the lens of social penetration theory.
And so it argues that social media has evolved the
social penetration process because multiple layers of a person's life,
(14:04):
or according to the theory, you know, layers of your
metaphorical onion are displayed for public consumption. So I can
like peel off these layers that I would have had
to do through interpersonal conversation, right, But so the first
time I actually see you in person, I already know
all of these things about you. So Pennington is arguing
(14:26):
that that's actually changing the social penetration, that changing the
interpersonal closeness process that we even experienced because of this
ubiquity of social media. So you can see why this
could enhance that parasocial relationship effect even with people that
we have the potential to meet in person, not just celebrities.
(14:48):
But I also think it could be a little bit
more complex than that. So one of my brilliant rhetorical
theory students raised this question in class the other day.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, there you go, free plug forever this.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Student, Yeah, and she was talking about the role of
social media in creating we're talking about mystification as a
form of rhetorical power. Is this like distancing effect that
actually creates power with an audience. So we have access
to see celebrities or our crush from biology class or
(15:21):
whatever on socials, but we're also distanced from them, which
creates this kind of allure and attraction and they have.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
This power over us.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
So I've wondered kind of which effect is stronger or
what is the interaction effect of those things? So like,
when you get to know someone online and then you
meet them, does the mystification power make you more equipped
for that social interaction or does it make you really
bomb that social interaction because you've you have all of
(15:53):
this like mystification, and then you try to talk to
them and it's like, oh my gosh, I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Stumbling over my words.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I guess you know how much mystification power the person
has over you. But I think both of those could
be at.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Play, No exactly. I mean I think about my own life.
You know, when when I came to Messiah, it was
you know, after the after the pandemic twenty twenty one
was my my first year here, and how I got
to know people was through Instagram, right, And I would
I would tell I would tell people like not to
(16:26):
be creepy, but I know you like, and I would
I would know there, you know, whenever they're tagged.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
You start the statement this way, not to.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Be creepy, and then they're like, they're like, oh great,
it's this guy. Then not to be creepy guy. But
it's it's strange because I don't know it could it
could be. It could be the case. Now, I don't know.
We're a couple of years out of the you know,
quote unquote pandemic time. But for for me, and I
(16:56):
think a lot of a lot of my people my
age and and and like the people that were you know,
either graduating from high school during the pandemic, graduating from college.
We we all have we were entering into this next
part of our lives. We got to know people over
you know, social media, whether it be like whatever platform
(17:17):
you want to you want to use, but it is.
It is crazy because you build up these expectations of
how people are supposed to be based on what you've seen,
and then like there's there's some people that you know,
I I met that I'm like, oh, you know you're
like this in real life, or oh you haven't you
have this inner you have you have this relationship with
(17:39):
this person, Oh you know you're related to this person.
And it's all these things that you can't find out
over a screen, which which I think is is unique
about about gen Z. Now, I'll be honest, I'm not
proud a lot of the time to be part of
gen Z because we get we get a lot of slack,
and I guess all generations do. All generations do.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And I think it's important to remember that that criticism
is usually coming from other generations who may not understand
or identify with that generation.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So I'm I'm.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Really reticent to be like, oh, gen Z, is this
that or the other thing? Like how does gen Z
define themselves? As were my my the question I think
other generations should be asking.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, well, to be honest, I
look at Gen Alpha sometimes and I'm like, I want
to like bleach my eyeballs.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Out now right now you get why these boomers.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
That's how it feels.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, Like I won't go into it, but like think
skibbety s gibbity this and s gibbitty that, and I'm
just like, oh, my words, I know what does that mean?
And I ask I ask, like, you know, I'll shout
out my cousin who's in East Gen Alpha ten years
younger than I am, and sometimes I'll ask him this
is a little bit of we're getting on a tangent here,
(19:02):
that's okay, but I'll ask him like what what what
is this? What does this mean?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
You know?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Okay? Now, now, now let's I'll take it back to
to our topic for for gen alpha and for for
generations where things like AI and virtual influencers. I see
this on Instagram. I don't know if you've seen this,
where in the direct messages you have these like AI
(19:32):
characters that like you can make your own character and
talk with them like they're a real person. That just
seems a little bit, I don't know, not frightening, but
kind of strange because you know, we're yeah, exactly exactly
because some someday I hope not, but it has the
potential to take over, you know, for for interpersonal interactions,
(19:56):
But how do you see relationships like parasocial of course first,
but then also even if you want to throw an
interpersonal how do you see like this evolving further as
AI and these virtual influencers become just a part of
our daily life. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
So I think a larger question is or kind of
a larger reality to be aware of, is that anytime
a new media or technology is disseminated into society, everybody
freaks out. Parents, schools, the government, researchers freak out and
want to know what's going to do to people because
(20:38):
they just imagine that it's going to be the end
of civilization and it's going to be off. And but
my point is, like we've thought this before. What are
video games going to do to young people? What are
movies going to do to young people? What is the
telephone going to do? And people we're not going to
see each other face to face, right, So this is
kind of a longer it's an older question than just AI.
(21:03):
So I think that helps me have a little bit
of perspective.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Because humans figure it out.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
And what's interesting to me about AI is is always
the question that raises about what it means to be human.
So rather than focus on that question of like what's it,
what's it going to do to our interpersonal interaction? Is
what does it mean to be human in the age
of AI? And you know, recently I heard on an
(21:29):
episode of a podcast that I listened to called Think Fast,
Talk Smart. It's hosted by Matt Abrahams of Stanford University,
and the interviewer the interview we was talking about how
virtual connection just lacks some important benefits that increase our
(21:50):
sense of interpersonal just well being. So the example was
we don't get the oxytocin boost that positive hormone boost
from a zoom call that we do from coffee or
a hug from a friend, So we still have that need.
And my point is we learn that we can't get
our innerpersonal needs met by virtual relationships based on their
(22:13):
effects on us, we won't be happy and fulfilled in
life unless we have authentic engagement with human beings, both
like both close relationships and just casual interaction with people
throughout the day. And if you, you know, have monitored
how you feel if you have interacted with more people
during the day versus days that you've kind of like,
(22:34):
you know, like stayed at home and didn't interact with anyone.
You know what I'm talking about, So nothing takes its place.
So in that sense, I'm not worried about AI. I'm
worried about AI for other reasons, which I just did
an interview for The Swinging Bridge with Bethany Petric, So
if you want to hear more about that, you can
read that article.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And I at the end of the day, I believe, as.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
A good optimist would, which I am, that human drive
for authentic connection will ultimately prevail. I think my biggest
concern is that I worry about the many unhappy, depressed, anxious,
lonely people out there that lack face to face human
(23:18):
connection and maybe don't realize the extent to which their
use of virtual social band aid is contributing to their loneliness.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. That's a great point.
I mean tying it because it is. We're talking about
pro social relationships here, but really what I want to
talk about is what does it mean to be in
relationship with each other? And then that's really what I'm
getting at, like for this podcast. I know this isn't
the last episode. We still have, you know, two more
to go, but we're a couple more. I don't really know.
(23:51):
I'm tired. It's the last week we're recording this, in
the last week in January. It's Friday, and I saw
something this morning on social media that said January has
been the longest month ever, and it was it was
a picture of Michael Scott from the episode of The
Office where he goes to he goes to the park
(24:12):
by himself, and that's exactly how I feel right now. Anyway, Sorry,
what was what was I talking about?
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Oh? Yeah, you're interested in human connection, real human connection,
because I think humans are wired for like picking up
on authenticity exactly. So if we need and we want
and we crave like authentic human connections, like we know
this is fake, so it's not gonna give us at.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
The end of the day what we want.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, yeah, it'll never fulfill us in the same way.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Look, let's just end the podcast there, because that's that's
just that's that's it. That's really all I mean. You
got relationships that that's that's the core. That's the core
of it. We can't survive without being in relationship with
one another. Well we we we can for like like
the times that we need to be apart, because that's important,
(24:59):
but we can't spend our whole entire lives without having
some sort of real connection. So thank you, thank you
for that, Doctor Wilkins. Thank you for this conversation. This
has been lovely. Yes well, thank you listeners also for
joining doctor Wilkins at myself on this episode of Paris
Social Paradigm. Sadly, Doctor Wilkins will not be back next week,
(25:23):
but if you everyone want to talk, we could just
talk and make it into a podcast, or or just
talk if you'd like to get coffee or that's right,
that's right, face to face. Yeah, not over email, not
over any of that. But yeah, thank you very much.
This has been this has been lovely. Thank you, so
thank you. Yeah, be sure to join me next week.
(25:44):
I promise that I'll try and make it as good
as I can. We'll be talking about the dark side
of parasocial relationships, so you know, a little bit more unsettling,
if you will. We talked a little bit about this
in today's episode, like stalking, obsession, emotion a dependencies that
you can you can brace yourself for that or whatever
whatever you want to do. You know, just think of,
(26:07):
you know, some classic examples we'll be talking about, like
mentioning John Lennon, Taylor Swift. I know, I know Taylor Swift,
we're mentioning her again, and a couple a couple other
you know, famous people where they've had like the dark
side of parasocial relationships become their reality. I think John
Lennon is probably the most famous example of that. In
nineteen eighty. Oh great, now I'm dating myself. I promise.
(26:29):
I'm only I'm almost twenty two, so I wasn't alive
in nineteen eighty but man, all right, I'm just done.
I'm done, all right see yah. Until then, thanks for
listening and have a great week.
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