#40: Finding Enchantment: Lessons on Childhood, Identity & Letting Go, ft. Samina Mishra

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
And watching a film together, that kind of thing, that kind of
like, you know, there's a comfort, like comfort food,
comfort scenario. Yeah.
Hello, beautiful people, and welcome back to another episode
of Parenthood. I'm your host, Neha Garth, and
this is a space where we slow down and listen to the real,

(00:22):
laid and often beautiful, messy stories of parenting.
This week's guest is someone I have long admired for her work,
her voice, and the quiet conviction with which she holds
space for everyone, but more so for children and their worlds.
Joining me today is Sameena Mishra, a documentary filmmaker,

(00:46):
writer, teacher and curator whose work explores childhood,
identity and education in contemporary India.
Among many, many things that shedoes, she also teaches films and
runs the Magic Key Centre for the Arts and Childhood, a
virtual space brimming with resources for those working with

(01:09):
and for children. She's also a mother to Imran and
Co parents him in a post separation arrangement with his
father, someone she's known since her adolescence.
I'm so excited to dive into her journey today, not only as a
parent and a creator, but also as someone who spent years
attuning herself to the inner lives of children.

(01:31):
So, Samina, welcome to Parenthood, and thank you so
much for joining us today. Thank you.
Thank you so much for that generous, generous introduction
and I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
So am I to get us started, Samina, tell us, if your life
were a book, what would its title be and which chapter are

(01:52):
you on currently? Oh my God the title.
Looking for wonder finding enchantment?
OK, for those who don't know, that's her Instagram handle
finding enchantment, Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, it would be
looking for wonder and finding enchantment.

(02:13):
I do. I think it's really important to
because we are living through very difficult times.
So I feel it's really important that we hold on to things that
can give us the energy to go through with that.
So looking for wonder and enchantment and joy is
important, I think, in life because the difficult stuff is

(02:35):
the structural stuff is not always something that we can fix
in a hurry. And we need to go the distance.
So we have to keep our resourcesinside, you know, replenished.
So yeah. And what chapter would I be on?
So, you know, when I was young, I used to think like by 40, if I

(02:56):
haven't done it by 40, then it'sover, you know.
But of course, I'm 56 now and I feel I still have a lot to do.
So yeah, I mean, I do feel the kind of little bit, the creeping
in of age in the physical body alittle bit.
But for the rest, I don't actually.

(03:16):
And I hope, I mean, of course 1 is, you know, you do get tired
and sometimes you're sort of kind of fighting against the
same thing again and again. But I do hope that I still have
things to contribute and to to Ireally want to be able to create
more. So I don't know if I'm like

(03:39):
coming to the end we. Hope not and and let's talk
about your family now. Can you tell us a little bit
about Imran? What's he like and just just
what sort of a person is he? So, you know, I had to get
Imran's consent, all this this kind of stuff.

(04:00):
I have to always get his consent.
And so, yeah, although I'm sure he will be like, he'll have
something to say this like that's oversharing or that's
clear mind. So yeah, he's that kind of kid.
He's very, he lives a lot. Like he has a very strong sense
of his self, I think. And he's very comfortable

(04:25):
spending time on his own. And that means also like working
and being to his own timetable, which can be a problem like in
the world when you're like engaging with the structure of
the world. And it does become a problem for
him, I think sometimes. But I think overall, I think
it's a good quality to be able to feel comfortable doing it at

(04:49):
your own pace. I think he has that.
He has that. He's, he talks, argues, he is a
reader. He was a very traditional type
of reader as a child when he wasgrowing up.
He loved fiction. He read a lot.
He was always like, he was a bitlike me as a kid in that he

(05:12):
always had a book like when you would travel and things like
that. I think now he reads in less
traditional ways a lot online. And I'm not so sure if he reads
as much fiction now, which I hope he will go come back to
because I think fiction is really important to keep, you

(05:32):
know, nurturing the imagination.He's an imaginative kid, Not a
kid anymore. He's 23.
Wow. Yeah.
He's just finished his. So he.
He's finished. His age when?
No, you were not his age when? I was.
I got my math wrong. I thought you were 46.

(05:52):
I'm 56, Yeah. So he's finished graduation, his
graduation. He's done his graduation
International relations, but he he was lucky enough to get a
year in Paris. His last year of graduation, he
got a year in Paris to just do arts related courses and French

(06:12):
and things, which he's kind of pretty good at.
And he's very interested in the art.
So it was a very, I think wonderful experience for him to
get that year. And so he's just back and we
wait and see what he does with it.
And and you've also shared that you Co parent with Imran's
father and that you've known himsince you were six.

(06:36):
Yes. What what is what was it like to
navigate a transition from an intimate partnership to a Co
parenting relationship, both emotionally and logistically?
Challenging, yeah. So actually I think what

(06:57):
happened is that sort of, I mean, we separated and Imran, he
had applied for this, you know, there are these schools called
the United World Colleges, yes, and he had applied for that.
So he went away for his +2. So in some ways, he was not with
us, you know, through this period that we've been

(07:18):
separated. So we have been doing it at a
distance and now he's back. But now he's an adult.
And I don't know what it's goingto be like.
But in these years, I do think that I was kind of like the
primary parent in terms of, you know, logistical things and, you

(07:38):
know, coming to me with various like issues and things or
whatever needed to be signed andall of that kind of thing.
But Imran has a good very like good emotional relationship with
his father. He, he feels that both of us
have, like, I think he accepts that parents are flawed

(07:59):
individuals. He accepts it great.
And so he's very open with all the time like critiquing us and
telling us what we are doing wrong with him, with each other,
that sort of thing. He's very open and quite
enthusiastic about that. So in that sense, I would say

(08:23):
the Co parenting journey has been like a tripartite 1, you
know, and because he's been awayand it's been at a time like
where he's really been growing into adulthood.
So, so much of that has been like, I think we've been in a

(08:43):
kind of backseat position and he's been doing a lot of the
navigating of his own life. Yeah.
And I must say that I, I feel, you know, like he was home
during that one COVID year. But otherwise, I mean, if you
don't count that, it's been 7 years since he actually left
home and he's back now. And I feel like he's really

(09:06):
grown into a person, into an adult, and I'm excited to see
what he does with it, as I thinkis his father.
Yeah. Yeah.
And how would you describe the dynamic in your home now that he
is back? What does the regular?
Is there a regular day, weekday or a weekend?

(09:29):
How does it look like? It's, I think too soon.
He's just back like just over 2 weeks.
So it's too soon, too soon at this point.
He's still like, you know, like when he used to come home for
holidays, basically he would be on some Ulta sleep cycle and I
just had to make sure there was food in the fridge.

(09:50):
So it's still a little bit like that, but there is, I mean, I
because, you know, he's been away in these years he's been,
he's learned to cook and, you know, like take care of a
kitchen and things and, you know, host his friends.
So it's he's very participative in that part of it.
So yeah, I had some friends overand all that, you know, and he

(10:12):
was like making like sure that they had something to drink.
He helped me with, you know, like all things.
So he's he's good with that. But he's in that right now
holiday type of where he's like mostly in his room locked up
watching things, playing something.
It's like that. So we haven't quite arrived at a
typical yet. And, and I want to go back in

(10:36):
the moment for a bit. Samina, how did your journey
into the journey into parenthoodbegin?
Was there a pivotal moment or shift when you felt that?
My God, I'm a parent now. Yeah, I don't know.
I think, I don't know if there was a pivotal moment.

(10:57):
I I must say that the minute that he was born, I fell in
love. Or maybe I was already in love
with him. You know, I'm having goosebumps.
Yeah, so I didn't. I mean, it was, I mean there
were all those challenges of, you know, sort of managing and

(11:19):
wanting to do things on the outside and all of that.
But I actually, I loved every stage with him.
I think for me, it was like, youknow, I think parenting is that
time for me. Working with children actually
is about that, where you kind oflike rediscover the world.

(11:40):
You're discovering it along withsomebody who is looking at it
for the first time. And I really, I think I've felt
nurtured by that process. You know, suddenly you're like
looking at things and the possibilities that the world
holds, the desire to share the things that you love with

(12:06):
someone and kind of pass it on, which is very, I think, natural
part of parenting. And it can also be a negative
thing, I think, for the child. And, you know, I don't think I
was always very careful or reflective enough about that.
I'm sure there are many mistakes, but I liked, for me,

(12:28):
those things were the things that really made the whole
journey kind of special. And I don't think that there was
a pivotal moment that I felt, oh, my God, you know, I have to
deal with this like that. That's what it means.
I think I. Yeah, I just enjoyed it.
Like from that first second, I was just so happy that I had

(12:51):
him. Yeah.
And I think that also it's been like, you know, this you, you
kind of, there are ideas that you sort of think that you
believe in and you kind of like try to live by and all that.
And of course, once you have a child, so many of those things
go out of the window because you're like seeing this other

(13:12):
part of you and you're getting irritated and you're, you know,
wanting things to be in a certain way and then you just
want them in your way. So those things are also, I
don't think they're easy going through at that moment, but now
I can look back and see like howthey're also like important
learning experiences. No, and you kind of like, I

(13:35):
think also it's important to have people around you who can
point that out that, you know, those things are surfacing you.
It's not easy always. And I mean, I've done also all,
but, I mean, that's life. No messy and muddled.

(13:55):
And yeah, like you said in your introduction, the messiness of
parents. No, it's that.
So All in all, I feel that. Yeah, it's been very imperfect,
but I think I've enjoyed it. Yeah.
And I guess that's like the mostimportant thing.
Like it has never really felt like a burden to me.

(14:16):
There have been challenging moments where, you know, like we
have fought and, you know, thoseemotional kind of challenges,
material challenges. But overall, it's never felt
like a burden to me. You know, it's like I'm enriched
by it. Yeah, how beautiful.
How beautiful. And you know, I'm also

(14:37):
intrigued. Was your work with children also
like a kind of a parallel to your parenting journey?
Was was it related or it just was something?
So I was already working on things related to children and
and childhood from my college days, like when I was studying

(15:00):
at Jam Yard and CRC. I mean, many of my projects were
with and about children and creating things for them.
So I was interested in that in his face.
But of course, the articulation has grown sharper.
The work has developed much more.
That's a function also of the fact that, you know, I had him

(15:22):
in my 30s and you know, those are also your years of like
really figuring out like work and what, what is it that you
want to do, the opportunities that you get also at that time.
So in that sense, it's been parallel, but I can't say that,
you know, it's because I had himthat I, I did, though.

(15:44):
No, no, it's, it's before. Yeah.
But I do think that, you know, the things kind of overlap.
No, like, I think all creative work and people who are in the
arts, you know what, what's happening in our lives and
what's happening in our work, they're so intertwined.
Also. No, there are overlaps.
So that of course is there, you know, and that sometimes has

(16:05):
been really helpful for me with him and sometimes conversations
with him have like like very often when I was writing when he
was a child, you know, it was like I could run it by him
because I have that, you know, potential reader there or you
know, potential audience there. So that's, I mean, in those ways

(16:28):
also like very logistically speaking those ways.
But I think in terms of ideas also, you know, that the overlap
comes from like, you know, some experience that you have with
your child and it throws up some, you know, and that makes
you think about something in a different way, right?
So those kinds of overlaps, I mean it's interfined.

(16:51):
Yeah, yeah. And what other than that, what
drives your work? Because it's so, it's so rooted
in so many things, but also justin itself rooted.
So what drives you? I think so.
I came to, like I said, I was working on things related to

(17:11):
childhood and children even during college, and many of my
projects were about those things.
And then I was working in the documentary space.
I mean, I hope, I like to think that I'm still working in the
documentary space, though it's been some years since I made a
film, Four years. But I think those two things,
you know, like working in the real world, working with ideas

(17:35):
of representing the real world, and also my interest in
children, children's lived experiences.
I think the two sort of came together and I think that's what
drives the work, which is that making place for children's
lived experiences and children'svoice and the fact that, you

(17:56):
know, there is a kind of conventionally one idea of
childhood. And I don't believe that.
And I I mean, I think the world actually belies that, but it's a
stereotype that really needs still working.
I mean, you would think it it shouldn't be, but that is the
case. You know, people think of
childhood and policy making is done.

(18:17):
Also, I think there's just this one notion of what it means to
be a child, whereas actually childhood is of many kinds, you
know, And so to be able to kind of talk about that multiplicity
of childhood, the many diverse lived experiences the children
have, and what does it like fromthat?

(18:40):
How do how we can learn as adults what it means to be able
to live together? Because that is the challenge of
our times, that we don't know how to live together.
Yeah. So yeah, I think that's what
drives it. And you said that, you know,
with Imran you don't have a typical day.
But I'm also interested to know like individually as a person,

(19:01):
do you have a typical day? Yeah.
In some ways there's like a broad kind of typical, but it
depends so much on what is the what I'm working on.
Yeah. Because you're working on SO.
Many and you know, it's different from like project to
project kind of thing. So my typical day, like I, I'm a

(19:21):
so do I wake up generally early and you know, I like that
morning time to myself. I'm a big tea drinker, so I
drink at least 2 cups of tea, large cups of tea in the
morning. Wow, I have a conversation with
my cats. My, my, now I have one cat, but
with my cat. So I have that.

(19:44):
That's also because it's a quiettime and cats also like quiet
time, you know. So that's a very good time for
us together. And I, I live, you know, my
parents are on the ground floor.I'm on the 2nd floor and my
parents are now like my father is.
Sort of. He has all the mobility issues.

(20:04):
He's old and like many age-related things and all that.
So his breakfast time is his best time of day.
So if I don't have to go out of the house and I'm working at
home, then I always go down around 9:00 when he's having
breakfast and I have a cup of coffee with him.
Wow. And then I come up and I'm
working, which can mean different things.

(20:26):
Like now I'm dressed and showered because I'm doing this
with you, but sometimes I'm working in my pyjamas till
12:00. So depending on what's going on
and so I work and then again, ifI'm not going out, if I don't
have meetings outside and I'm orI'm not doing anything that
takes me outside, then I will godown again around 4:35 to be

(20:51):
with my parents for a little bit.
And then I come up. At that point it depends on
whether I'm feeling energetic enough to work more or I'm not
or, you know, it really depends that sense.
I don't have a very typical and I'm not one of those like I
write, you know, but I'm not like a discipline writer.
My writing always comes like, you know, in bursts.

(21:13):
And I'm writing like other things like if I'm working on
project, there are other types of things that I have to write.
So that kind of thing I do, but you know, like the creative
writing part, I'm not disciplined about it at all.
I'm a disciplined person and like, you know, sleep and food
and exercise and also I'm very good with that.
Like in the summer I swim. So these days I swim in the

(21:34):
evening. I'll go off in the evening to
swim three times a day, three times a week.
I try to do yoga. So in those ways I'm
disciplined, but this is like, you know, in bursts and things
like that. Yeah, but seriously, thank you
for saying that. Because for people like me, I
mean, I am like that, you know, I also create in bursts, whether

(21:55):
it's writing or whether it's anything.
And it just, it just is OK, I think.
No, it's just the way it is, youknow?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Also tell me, Samina, you're doing so many things.
You know, you have so many. I mean, identities, if I were to

(22:15):
use that word, you know, you're a teacher, a film maker, a
writer, a curator and a mother. How do you how do you move
between these identities withoutor not without losing your sense
of self? I want to say but but you know
what I mean? Like what?
Is that something that holds youtogether, anchors you while you

(22:39):
move between? You know, I don't see them as
like separate boxes. Yeah, for me, it's all my
practice. No, and it's all connected.
And it's about like the thing that I'm doing.
What is the best form of doing that?
You know, So I don't see that a separation for me.
My practice is like when they say, you know, hybrid and multi

(23:03):
and all that, feel it like that.So, you know, and and and and
some of the curation stuff, likeI kind of like drifted into it
because of other practice, you know, so like when I was
curating for mommy, they came tome because of the work that I
had done in childhood. So, you know, and because I was

(23:23):
a film maker and I was also teaching film, so and I went
into the classroom teaching filmbecause I was a film maker.
So I don't see them as all beingseparate and they in fact feed
into each other. My personal practice, I think
the articulation gets better because I have taught that has
like working with young people, trying to teach them makes me

(23:44):
articulate in a sharper, clearerway.
The same thing with curation. Curation is not just putting a
bunch of films together or you know, like when we create
curated sound files here, my friend Iram and I, it's not just
like you have to think through ideas, right?
Like you could think like, what is the frame?
What is your gaze? What, how are you putting this

(24:06):
together? You're right.
So if that is, again, pushing you to articulate clearer, and
that is going to feed into anything that I write or
anything that I make, you know, that ability to be able to see
that. Yeah.
Because in the end, art is aboutlike, you know, otherwise we
are, we're constantly like, art is about talking about things

(24:27):
that have been spoken about for centuries.
Yeah. There's always a new way of
sharing that. No, be through a new experience,
through maybe something that feels new because the context
has changed. Yeah.
We need to be able to see that. No.
Yeah. So that to be able to look at
both content and form in a kind of clear way.

(24:50):
Yeah. I feel all of these things
helped are helping. Me, yeah, and present continuous
yeah. And tell me someone you know who
creates, Where do you go for, for replenishing yourself?
What feeds your inner life? Lots of things.

(25:12):
I mean, I read, I watch movies, I watch bad TV shows sitting in
my pyjamas. I swim.
I like, I love to walk in good weather, you know, between
trees. And I mean, I love the natural
world like that. I love to travel.
And most of all, I think my friends, they really like, are a

(25:35):
very important part of my life. Yeah, I think having a a sense
of community, having a communityis, I think, really important.
Yeah. And I'm lucky.
I'm really fortunate I have that.
I have that. So lots of things.
And I'm also very interested while you said that, you know,

(25:56):
your parenting journey and your work journey has been kind of a
parallel thing. But tell me, has Imran ever
inspired a project directly or indirectly?
Like, has there something been in your work that has been like,
OK, this is because Imran is. No, I don't think so.

(26:23):
I don't think so, though. He's there in some of the work.
Some things are. Yeah.
One of my books, which has just come out this year, called Where
Does It Hurt? Yes.
So where does it? It's just a poem and it has many
different characters in it, and most of the characters are
children that I know and I've met.
And the Imran in that is that incident is actually it happened

(26:47):
to him. So in that way, yes, he has
crept into my work in like many ways, but I don't know if I've
done a project that has been inspired by him.
No, I'm not the kind of parent Ithink you know, No.
OK. Yeah.
But I think you also work with so many children because I think

(27:09):
that also, you know, kind of assimilative nature of that
experience also gets into, you know, everything that you do.
So, you know, the James Baldwin code, the children are always
ours. Yeah, that.
I mean, I'm, I'm forgetting the other part of it, but you know,
that, that idea. And for me, I think it's that

(27:32):
that of course, you know, Imran is really important to me, but
my work is not about him and it has not emerged from him.
And it's end with him, you know,Like for me, it is about I, I
work with children and about childhood because I think
there's something that we need to think about there.

(27:54):
We need to kind of make place for because it can contribute to
the way that we understand the world and that we can imagine
the world we want to live in. Yeah.
Imran is one child in that, but he's not central.
Yeah, no, I do. I mean, I know that in the space

(28:16):
of writing for children and a lot of like, people who work
with children, you know, often, first of all, there are a lot of
women. And that's part of the whole,
you know, why we have had, you know, what is called the
feminization of education, right?
So it's part of that that, you know, things about children and
childhood are seen in this way that, you know, it's instinctive

(28:40):
when it comes to women because we are, like, maternal and all
of that, right? And that actually we don't need
to think about these things. So actually, I have a big
problem with that. Yeah, yeah.
And I think that we need to study and understand childhood
in the same way as we would understand any other idea, any
other social phenomena. And we have to give a place for,

(29:06):
you know, people like scholarly work, people who have spent time
thinking about these things. We must, we have to read and we
have to learn from that. And it's definitely not
something that is comes naturally to women.
Yes. You know, because if that was
the case, we would not have all these kinds of problems that we

(29:27):
have. Yeah.
And and that it's in itself is such a gendered problem that you
think of it in that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think, I don't think that, yeah, Iran is sent to my.
Work but okay and vice versa. Has your work impacted the way
you have brought him up or you know, are you parenting because

(29:50):
you work with, I mean, your workis such a central part of your
life. It's kind of enmeshed, if I can
say so, but it has that impactedhow your parenting has been with
Imran? So again, it's, it's hard to

(30:12):
kind of say which came first andyou know how that happens, but
definitely that you, one can seesome kind of overlaps, like for
example, you know, when he was growing up, the many things
that, you know, I took him to see, to experience, they did

(30:32):
come also out of my work. They're things that I, I, I came
to know because of my work spaces that I came to know
because of my work. And then I wanted to share it
with him. So those kinds of overlaps
definitely. I, I mean, I, I don't know that,
you know, it was like anything really very conscious that, you

(30:57):
know, I work on childhood and therefore my child, you know, in
that conscious kind of way, but conscious in this, in the larger
way that I wanted him very much to understand, you know, like
structural inequality in the world, a way that you can with,
with children. And for me, that just meant that
I have to be able to take him tomany different types of places

(31:21):
and, you know, let him see different kinds of ways of being
and living. So that was a conscious thing,
but I don't know that the childhood and the work of
childhood part of it was, you know, like.
Yeah, yeah. And tell me because you've said
that, you know, your journey wasa journey.

(31:42):
It has been like more or less enjoyable in that sense and you
feel so it's. Been some very hard work.
Yes, that's. My question?
Tell me about the hard moments. Tell me about the moments that
knocked the wind out of you as aparent.

(32:02):
Well, I mean, of course the teenyears are hard.
I think they were hard for me also, and also because that was
around the time that Kunal and Iwere starting to kind of like,
you know, separate. And so it was hard.
And it was hard for him to go through that in those years, I
think. And I think his, his, the kind

(32:29):
of way of dealing with it for a while was to somehow, because
I'm a doer, you know, I do, although I'm, I'm trying very
hard as I grow older to like just be, but I am like
instinctively, you know, I feel I can fix like if there's a
problem, I can do this to fix, right?

(32:49):
And sometimes you can't and you have to accept that.
And that I think has been like difficult, like between us also.
So, you know, his way of I thinkthen coping with it was to like
lay it all out. Like, you know, you have not
been in you're, you're doing this or you're not being able to
do that or whatever, you know, and me feeling like, oh, but I'm

(33:12):
doing and he can't see that doing so much, you know, that
kind of thing. And I think it was, it was hard
particularly like, you know, when he was going away to UWC
those years also, that was a time, you know, so he's got
ADDADHD. It's not like, you know, he

(33:35):
never needed some medication andit was never so pronounced.
Most of it came in like this executive functioning kind of
thing of not being deadlines andthat kind of thing.
And when, when he left home suddenly, like, I think I'd like
what how they explained to me was that, you know, very often
this shows up late when people they leave home because

(33:55):
particularly in Indian household, I think they're
always they don't get up go now you have to do this whatever.
So I think some of it. I mean, the signs were there and
I didn't know I didn't make the connections.
And then when he went to hostel in UWC, then suddenly like it
showed up and all that, you know, so this that's a lot of

(34:16):
things going on at the same time, you know, his parents have
separated. This thing is like, you know,
come into the foreground. He's a way in a new country.
But I think the thing that happened, like, I think because
we laid some foundation in his childhood of being able to like

(34:37):
talk, talk, talk. So even when they, we were not
like talking verbally in those moments, we were able to talk in
other ways and just like be there to kind of go get past
that. And I, I, I must say that I
would credit him a lot for that,for the persistence and also me

(35:01):
that there was no question of like there being a breakdown
ever. There was like always, like
there could be those momentary challenges the, and the moment
could extend over some days, butthere was never that we will
like get not get past that, I think.

(35:23):
But I must say, I credit him a lot for being able to see, you
know, that human beings are complicated.
Yeah. And to see how.
And I, I, I think much of it also because of the experience
that he had going away to UWC, the things that he did there he

(35:45):
was, you know, they have this thing called pure listening and
all. And he became a pure listener.
So it opened up, you know, ways of being for him.
And. Yeah, yeah, You know, I come
from a family also like, you know, where there's a lot of
talking, you know, like my nephew used to say that when he

(36:05):
was a child, you know, there's too much talking in this.
So like when we fight, you know,yeah, there's a lot of talking.
Like, you know, if I've had fights with my parents and all
that, it just goes off. So in that sense.
So we like I was I was already like that.
And I think he also has got someof that plus from all of those

(36:29):
experiences. But I must say that maybe the
like the yeah, the last of his teen years were difficult
because of so many challenges coming together.
Yes. And it was hard on many fronts
for me. I was like trying to figure out
things how how things will be. Yeah, and I, I think I made also

(36:53):
mistakes in how I was with him, you know, like sometimes
expecting too much understanding.
And also I think I did, and that's not fair.
But at that moment it felt unfair to me.
So that kind of thing, you know.Yeah.

(37:14):
And talking about talking. You said, you know, there is a
lot of talking and but I'm struck by something that you
said. You said that even when we were
not talking verbally, there was a lot of talking in other ways.
What tell us about the other ways?
What are the talking? Yeah, watching movies together.

(37:37):
So, I mean, one of the things that we used we have not done
for, but every holiday we used to do that it's like eating
Chinese food and watching a filmtogether, that kind of thing,
that kind of like, you know, there's a comfort, like comfort
food, comfort scenario. Yeah.
That and I think hugs, we have given hugs, a lot of hugs.

(38:04):
Yeah. Yeah.
And also like also talking via SMS and stuff, but he was away,
for example, if we had somethingon the phone, then continuing to
do that. No.
And it's been like sometimes we are in the middle.
He's been away and we have had an argument and something and he
has blocked me for a couple of days.

(38:27):
That has also happened. Oh.
God I. Am already You may be far better
at it than I was. We'll see when the time comes.
But but very interesting. And sometimes I feel that, you
know, the smallest moment like you talk about eating Chinese

(38:51):
together and watching movies. Moments like these end up
leaving the deepest kind of impressions is are there, and
I'm not going to restrict it to 1 moment, but are there
seemingly small, perhaps even mundane moments with Imran that
have stayed with you that absolutely Tell us about that.

(39:13):
With him, I think, you know, he I think he's he spends a lot of
time trying to make sense of stuff from his childhood and all
that. Like he, I mean, he's a creative
type of boy and I think he wantsto be able to create things
also. So I think he draws a lot on
that. And in that process, I think

(39:34):
he's tries to kind of make senseof it.
And so I know that there are moments which he remembers, you
know, and I remember we'll be watching something or something,
something we'll see. And I'll say, do you remember
that time? And he remembers it, you know,
so there are very like, I think where we've like, like they'll

(39:54):
be. And also because he has grown up
in a time of hyper documentation.
Yeah, lots of pictures and videos and all.
So there are key moments, you know, like there's there's a
video which he has saved, you know, some 2-3 videos, which,
you know, like in some moment when he's been far away and he's
missing me or something, he willsend that.

(40:14):
And, you know, like, I know whatit what is going on, you know,
video of us or video with something without cat.
We, you know, we just lost our cat, who was almost. 17 years
old and he's kind of Imran his entire childhood in a sense, you
know, pirate has kind of seen him through and that moment
actually brought up many of those people that have like, you

(40:37):
know, in a like they are tied together, you know, those
specific things, you know, that day that I brought pirate home,
for example, you know, and I I surprised him, you know, pirate
was at my friends. You know, I think his mother has
probably died in a accident or something.
So my friend had found these twokitchens outside her home.

(40:57):
And she'd called me and said she'd because I was living in a
ground floor house at that time.And I was like, you know, I was
7. And I thought, you know, it's
time to like, I'd had a cat before and then she had died.
And so I thought, OK, you know, it's time, we should get
something. And so she called me and I was
editing that day. So I said, I'll come at the end

(41:18):
of the day after I finish. And by the time I got there,
the, the runt of the litter had done, they were like really
tiny. They were just few days old.
And I brought pirate home and I didn't tell him.
Ronnie was in a cardboard box. And I remember.
So I, I, I kept it outside therein the garden and I went and I
called him and I said, I have something for you.

(41:38):
And so he thought, oh, there's abox with a toy or something.
And he opened it and there was asmall little black pirate.
And he remembered for him also, you know, that I like.
I remember that moment. He remembers it, you know, just
the first time something, you know, walking somewhere like,

(42:00):
you know, and he's little sentimental type boy.
Yeah. He would like me to say it.
Now. Talk of pictures and you know
things. And, like, when it's telling me,
like this year in Paris, you know, all the new friends that
he made and all that he's telling me about it, it's always
like showing me this picture. And this is when we did this.

(42:20):
And this is my last day of this and my first day of this.
So there's a lot of last first. Yeah, yeah, there are those
moments. Yeah, lovely.
Lovely. And tell me, Samina, if you
could sit across from the version of you that existed
before becoming a mother and youcould tell her anything, what
would you tell her? Chill, it's going to be okay.

(42:43):
Yeah, it's going to be hard, butit's going to be okay.
And you know, the the anxiety that you feel that will you pass
on something, your child that you hold dear, it will happen
and be relaxed about it and don't be anxious about it.
I saw that, you know, like, like, and I told him this and
you know, and so this, he, he went to Paris in August and then

(43:06):
I had gone for work to the USS when I was coming back home in
October, it was October, I thinkI stay.
I stopped in Paris and I spent aweek with him and it was like,
you know, I mean, I've been to Paris before, but this time it
was like he was showing me his Paris.
Although he had spent not in that much, like there have been

(43:28):
two months, but in those two months he had some whatever.
And did he like the first day? Where did he take me to
bookstore, library, you know, like his key, these things, you
know, this like kebab shop, someTurkish guy.
You know that that's so I I saidto him, it's like I'm seeing the

(43:51):
stuff that I wanted to expose you to in your childhood and
hope that, you know, it would gosome way in how you become.
I can see that it is there. Yeah, you're obviously.
But I saw that. No.
So I feel that if I could have told myself and my don't be

(44:14):
anxious about it, it will happen.
Yeah, yeah. And also be anxious about it
because it will happen in. My case.
You just scared me now. That was not my intention, OK.

(44:35):
We'll get. Over it, yeah, I think that.
So I think I would tell that person to just be who you are
and just like, do the things that come naturally and not know
like it will, you know, that anxiety or wanting to like pass
on. And for me, because I grew up
with a mixed name, Imran has also mixed background.

(44:56):
For me, those things were also important given the context of
the country and the world that, you know, I didn't, I'm not a,
I'm not a religious person, but it was important to me that, you
know, I'm able to pass on that part of my identity that it
doesn't get lost, you know, and there is of course, anxiety also

(45:17):
about that, particularly if you're not a practicing person.
No, like your child is not seeing you do those things.
And yet you're like, I do want you to hold on to some part of
that. And that's the reason why we
gave the name that we did, you know?
But those things, I feel that I could, I mean, I, if I, if I

(45:40):
would go back in time, I would say that it'll happen because
that's the fabric of your life. That's the texture and it comes
through. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's that's what I would tell her.
And, and if you could tell your future version something that
you're sitting here and you can see how Imran is turning up and

(46:02):
you know, he's 23 now. So he's, he's more than an
adult. So he's been an adult for a lot
of years now. Five years, yes.
What what would you like to tellyourself now?
A future self, yes. Well, that's a difficult one

(46:23):
because I don't know what what Iwill also be like, how I am
going to be. I don't know that.
But I do feel now, you know, like I have a sense that he's
taken charge of his life, like he will find his way to do
whatever he wants to. And my role now is just to kind

(46:45):
of be the silent supporter on the side and just watch, you
know, I don't know what I'm going to be like in another 20
years, what kind of old woman I'm going to be.
But I, I, I think what I would, yeah, I would like is because I,
I think I will need energy. He's that kind of boy that if I

(47:08):
want to keep up with him, I willneed energy.
Oh, that's the only thing that Ifeel I, I don't, I don't want to
be. Yeah, I don't want to.
I want to be like a fit person. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I think about like in the future.
Yeah, yeah. Nice.

(47:30):
Yeah. And and we are coming to a close
of this conversations. Amina, my last question to you.
If there's one message, one insight, one piece of wisdom
that you would like to, you know, leave our listeners with
something that encapsulates who you are and your parenting
philosophy, how you view the world, what would it be?

(47:56):
So, you know, like I said to youwhen you approach me that I'm
very wary of like parenting advice because I mean, I don't
think that I have it sorted and I doubt that anybody has it.
So I'm like, I shy away from that.

(48:17):
But in my work with different kinds of kids and combining that
with my experiences with Imran, I think the one thing that I
think is really important is as as adults, being able to be kind

(48:40):
of self reflexive and to see howchildren are part of like the
largest structures of the world and how structural inequalities
actually are things that we needto.
They're not just some abstract things out there, but they are
in our homes, in our neighborhoods, in our schools.

(49:02):
And that we need to think about that and to be able to think
about that by actually listeningto children.
I think we need to do that. And instead of thinking that we
understand structural inequalityand we can tell them how to be,
I think instead of that we need to listen to the children's lift

(49:23):
experiences and from that understand those inequalities in
the world. So I feel that that's the one
thing that I would say is important, that we do make place
to listen to children, to different kinds of children that
you know, your child is 1 tiny little drop and does not
represent everything in the world.

(49:46):
And your child is important, butyour child needs to know that
there are many other kinds of childhoods and that you can
bring those childhoods into thatchild's world in many different
ways. Sometimes we can't have that in
a, you know, person to person interaction.
But there are other ways to do that, right?

(50:07):
In stories that we share and films that we watch and the art
that we see. There are many ways of doing
that. So that's that's, I feel really
important. It should be now all ours.
Yeah, yeah, someone has said. In a much better way.
But but you know, I have a sorryfor taking more time, but I have

(50:31):
a follow up question to that. You know, Samina, to what you
said, you, you know, in in a lotof families now that I'm seeing,
you know, my contemporaries, there is, I think, very little
time and very little awareness. I would say not inclination, but
awareness do bring those diversestories into the life of the

(50:58):
child, especially through experiences like we can buy them
books, you know, but that's that's kind of the end of it.
So what do you what do you suggest for parents who are
pressed for time? What can they do?

(51:18):
So, you know, I mean, this is it's it's, it's the new liberal
world that we live in, that it'sparenting, like you said, has
become a lonely journey. It's become a lonely journey
because these are the times thatwe live in, you know, where
everything seems to be the responsibility of the
individual. And as if the larger structures

(51:40):
of the world don't impinge on those individual lives.
Of course they do. But the way that it is now
talked about is always, you know, like how to be a good
parent, but it's not about how to be a good parent, actually
like how to be a good world, a good society, you know, like
which is able to kind of form community.
And I think one of the the things that you are talking

(52:03):
about 1 can do that if there is a community, you know, however
small, so that only one parent doesn't have to do that and
there is a sharing of that. So, you know, one of the easiest
ways is that if there's a community library near your
home, which is open to all kindsof children, that's a place
where you can your child can go once a week.

(52:25):
And we all kinds of children. You know, that's one simple way
to do that. I think the other is to form
those. You know, when Imran was growing
up, I and I, I wanted very much like, you know, I would take him
for like some this festival or that festival somewhere where
there was some odd thing. But in my car, always there were

(52:47):
more than two children. There was always like 345
depending, you know, there were other kids who were going along.
So I feel that that, you know, if there is a group of people
and then there is a sharing of things, somebody's interested in
one thing and somebody's interested in another, someone
knows something else, and there's a way of opening the
world out. Children are not just the

(53:08):
responsibility of the pet. Of course, we are the parents.
But I think this idea of, you know, it takes a village means,
what does it actually mean? Yeah.
We have to think a little bit about applying that.
Yeah, you know, and when we livekind of like closed lives, we
are closing the borders for the child, right?

(53:31):
Actually need to do the opposite.
We need to open that. So it's a it's actually about
the adults in that child life tothink about their lives, you
know, like what is the life you want to live?
And if you lead that kind of life, then your child will see
those people in your life know those different kinds of people.
For me, I think for Imran that because my friends are such a

(53:53):
big part of my life, he saw and you know, I'm different types of
friends. Not not all my friends are like,
you know, married and living some coupled up life and going
for couple holidays and like that, you know, I mean, so he
saw there are many ways of beingin the world.
And that is just something that you absorb, you know?

(54:13):
So I feel it's for adults to think, like, examine your own
life and see, like, what is thatlife you want for yourself?
Yeah. How does that life connect with
the larger? World.
Yeah, yeah. How beautiful.
How beautiful Kamina thank you so much for this conversation.

(54:35):
I particularly I'm in awe of theclams spaciousness that you know
with which you reflect on parenting, identity and
creativity. I'm I've learned so much just by
listening to you. Thank you.
Thank you so. Much.
You're very, very generous. My I'm, you know you deserve it

(54:56):
all and more I I have to say. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you.
Thank you, thank you. And to everyone tuning in, thank
you for joining us on Parenthood.
If this episode resonated with you, please take a moment to
subscribe. Share it with your fellow
parents and caregivers and leaveus a review.

(55:17):
Your stories, your shares and your voices help this community
grow stronger. Until next time, this is Neha
signing off. Take care and bye bye.

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