October 9, 2024 • 9 mins
What if starting first grade a year later could change the trajectory of a child's entire educational journey? Join us as we explore this bold idea with John Chavez, author of "17, 18, 19, Redshirting Education." Discover how delaying school entry might enhance social development, maturity, and even high school graduation rates. We dig into the crucial role of mastering multiplication by third grade and its surprising link to long-term academic success. This episode offers a fresh perspective on the often overlooked benefits of taking the road less traveled in education.
Our discussion also touches on the stormy seas of middle school, where social upheavals and puberty challenge students' confidence and risk-taking. Chavez shares strategies from resources like the What Works Clearinghouse that can help close educational gaps when they arise. We also ponder the broader implications of teenagers obtaining their driver's licenses—it's about more than just getting behind the wheel. Embrace a new way of thinking about education as we advocate for personalized learning paths and community support tailored to each child's unique needs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, so are you ready to dive into something
interesting?
Today we're tacklingredshirting in education.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
But we're not just talking about the whole
kindergarten thing.
All right, We've got JohnChavez's book.
17, 18, 19, RedshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And he kind of throws a curveball.
Yeah, he's all about delayingfirst grade.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
It's interesting.
What do you think about that?
Yeah, it's fascinating.
You see, chavez.
He argues that repeatingkindergarten, but at a new
school, can actually make for amuch smoother social transition.
Kids get that extra year, butthey're not, like you know,
labeled as being held back withtheir like same classmates.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, that's a really interesting distinction I
hadn't really considered before.
Yeah, he actually aimed for hissons to graduate high school at
19.
Right Like, can you imagine?
Your kid is 19, they'renavigating college applications
or maybe even job interviews.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
How do you think that extra year, just like even
maturity, wise and lifeexperience, how do you think
that might give them an edgecompared to their peers?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's not even just about, like, being a year older,
which in and of itself is, youknow, something to consider, but
it's about their decisionmaking, their confidence, even
their resilience when, like,things get tough.
And Chavez really highlightsthose extra years, how impactful
they can be, especially whenteens are going through these
big milestones going to college,entering the workforce.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Right, yeah, it makes you wonder if sometimes we
underestimate the impact ofthose developmental differences.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And he's not just fixated on senior year.
Chavez pinpoints third grade aslike this pivotal year.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Particularly when it comes to mastering
multiplication.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, Particularly when it comes to mastering
multiplication.
He found this connectionbetween, like really nailing
those multiplication tables inthird grade and higher high
school graduation rates.
Wow, it seems.
You know, at first you thinkreally that's so specific.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, but there is research to back this up.
So, like a child who struggleswith multiplication in early
elementary, they might actuallybe at a higher risk of dropping
out of high school later on ofmultiplication in early
elementary they might actuallybe at a higher risk of dropping
out of high school later on.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, yeah, it's not about like scaring people, but
it's one of those things whereyou see that connection and it
does raise a flag.
It's like, okay, early mathproficiency, that's really
important.
It lays the groundwork forfuture academic success.
You know the NationalMathematics Advisory Panel.
They've done a lot of work onthis and it's really critical
those early building blocks.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So it's not even just about memorizing times tables.
It's about building that solidbase for all the complex math
that's coming later.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Exactly, and you know there's research from Duncan
and others that show that whenkids struggle early on with math
it can kind of snowball.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You know they get discouraged, they check out and
that impacts their wholeacademic trajectory.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And this idea of cumulative disadvantage and the
Annenberg Institute for SchoolReform has highlighted this like
when those early challengesaren't addressed, they kind of
have this ripple effect.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And it just like impacts them academically, even
socially and emotionally impactsthem academically, even
socially and emotionally.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Wow, that's a powerful way to put it the
ripple effect.
So what can parents do?
Say their child is past thirdgrade and struggling.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Is it too late?
No, not at all.
There's good news here the whatWorks Clearinghouse.
They have a ton of researchshowing that targeted
interventions, even later on,they can help.
It's about finding those gapsand getting the right support.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay, that is really good to hear for parents.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And it kind of speaks to that, like you know, early
intervention thing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Catching it before those, like ripples, become,
like you know, tidal waves.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But Chavez doesn't stop at academics.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
He goes into this whole other world.
That I feel like a lot ofpeople don't really talk about
middle school.
Oh yeah, and how puberty justlike throws everything up in the
air.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's amazing.
It's like those few years.
It's credible, like they're notjust, you know suddenly taller.
It's like their sense of whothey are is changing where they
fit in socially.
It's all happening at once.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
While their bodies are like changing.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's like their brains are trying to do algebra
and figure out like their firstcrush, all at the same time.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And like, with all that change those early gaps
academically, like we talkedabout with multiplication, like
those can become even moreobvious in middle school right.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh, absolutely, because middle school is where
you know academics get moreintense.
Yeah, the subjects are morecomplex.
Right, there are higherexpectations, and so those
little gaps they had, say inmath, suddenly impact their
confidence, makes them lesslikely to take risks, which is
so important at that age.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Totally so.
It's like we were talking aboutbuilding a tower.
Now it's like you're adding onthose middle floors and if that
base isn't strong, it's like thewhole structure is.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Exactly Compromised, and what's so interesting is how
Chavez ties this to another bigmilestone for teens.
Getting your driver's license.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Oh, ok, yeah, let's talk about that.
Yeah, because, like driving forteenagers, I mean, come on,
that's like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right, right, but he's saying it's way more than
just driving, that's like theultimate freedom, right, right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
But he's saying it's way more than just driving.
It's so much more than justdriving.
He argues that the age when ateam gets their license, it can
really have these hugeimplications and not just like
getting from here to there.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
But navigating the world and all the real
consequences that come with it.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so it's less about can you like nail that
parallel park?
And more about decision making,responsibility, absolutely All
those things you know as parents, like we want our kids to have,
but it's also terrifying to letthem actually practice.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Oh, I know Right Like .
Imagine this your team'sdriving.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Split?
Second decision Do they followthe rules, Even if their friends
are like, come on, let's go,let's do this, or you know that
urge to text while they'redriving.
They know it's dangerous, Right, but like these are high stakes
decisions they have to make.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And it really shows their maturity level.
That's a heavy responsibility,Not just for the teenager, but
for the parent too.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
It's like we're literally handing over, you know
, the keys to a powerful machine.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and just hoping we've given them what they need
to handle it.
It's that balance of letting gobut also still being there.
You know, guiding, settingexpectations.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Having those hard conversations about risk peer
pressure.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
What are the consequences of their actions,
good and bad?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, it's like driving.
It's almost like this, liketraining ground.
You don't really expect forthose like bigger life skills.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Responsibility Thinking ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Good judgment, all that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Exactly, and it really highlights what Chavez is
getting at here.
We've got to think bigger thanjust these traditional
milestones.
Yeah, it's about the wholepicture, right?
How kids develop.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's recognizing that , like kids, they mature
differently.
What one kid's ready for at 16,another kid might need until
they're 17 or 18.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Absolutely.
And this whole idea of liketailoring things to the kid to
their own timeline, it'sinteresting timeline it's
interesting because education iskind of shifting this way.
Anyway, okay, away from thatrigid everybody's the same model
.
Yeah, it's getting morepersonalized.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's like meeting kidswhere they're at developmentally
.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And like giving them the support to succeed, not just
in school but, you know,emotionally, socially, the whole
thing.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Absolutely.
And you know, chavez, hefocuses on those very specific
things First grade driver'slicense but it makes you think
right yeah, what else plays intoa child's readiness?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Right, what else beyond those, like markers on
the calendar, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What makes a child truly ready for those next steps
?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's a big question .
It is and I think it's one forall of us right.
Whether you're a parent, ateacher, anyone who works with
young people, it's aconversation to keep having and
there's no easy answer.
No, but it starts with seeingeach child as an individual.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Their strengths, their challenges, their own pace
it all matters.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
This has been such an interesting deep dive John
Chavez's 17, 18, 19.
Redshirting education Everyoneshould check it out.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It really makes you think.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It does.
It's a fresh take on thosemilestones we think we know and
just that reminder thatsometimes you know maybe a
detour from the usual path mightbe the best thing for a child.
Absolutely, Help them thrive,Exactly might be the best thing
for a child.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Absolutely Help them thrive.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Exactly and for everyone listening, as you're
figuring these things out inyour own families, your
communities.
Remember there's no one rightanswer.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's about what works for that child.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That's what it comes down to.
Well, thank you for joining usfor this deep dive, and we'll
see you next time.
Keep those minds curious.
Okay, so are you ready to dive into something
interesting?
Today we're tacklingredshirting in education.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
But we're not just talking about the whole
kindergarten thing.
All right, We've got JohnChavez's book.
17, 18, 19, RedshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
And he kind of throws a curveball.
Yeah, he's all about delayingfirst grade.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
It's interesting.
What do you think about that?
Yeah, it's fascinating.
You see, chavez.
He argues that repeatingkindergarten, but at a new
school, can actually make for amuch smoother social transition.
Kids get that extra year, butthey're not, like you know,
labeled as being held back withtheir like same classmates.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, that's a really interesting distinction I
hadn't really considered before.
Yeah, he actually aimed for hissons to graduate high school at
19.
Right Like, can you imagine?
Your kid is 19, they'renavigating college applications
or maybe even job interviews.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
How do you think that extra year, just like even
maturity, wise and lifeexperience, how do you think
that might give them an edgecompared to their peers?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It's not even just about, like, being a year older,
which in and of itself is, youknow, something to consider, but
it's about their decisionmaking, their confidence, even
their resilience when, like,things get tough.
And Chavez really highlightsthose extra years, how impactful
they can be, especially whenteens are going through these
big milestones going to college,entering the workforce.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Right, yeah, it makes you wonder if sometimes we
underestimate the impact ofthose developmental differences.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
And he's not just fixated on senior year.
Chavez pinpoints third grade aslike this pivotal year.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Particularly when it comes to mastering
multiplication.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, Particularly when it comes to mastering
multiplication.
He found this connectionbetween, like really nailing
those multiplication tables inthird grade and higher high
school graduation rates.
Wow, it seems.
You know, at first you thinkreally that's so specific.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah, but there is research to back this up.
So, like a child who struggleswith multiplication in early
elementary, they might actuallybe at a higher risk of dropping
out of high school later on ofmultiplication in early
elementary they might actuallybe at a higher risk of dropping
out of high school later on.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, yeah, it's not about like scaring people, but
it's one of those things whereyou see that connection and it
does raise a flag.
It's like, okay, early mathproficiency, that's really
important.
It lays the groundwork forfuture academic success.
You know the NationalMathematics Advisory Panel.
They've done a lot of work onthis and it's really critical
those early building blocks.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So it's not even just about memorizing times tables.
It's about building that solidbase for all the complex math
that's coming later.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Exactly, and you know there's research from Duncan
and others that show that whenkids struggle early on with math
it can kind of snowball.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
You know they get discouraged, they check out and
that impacts their wholeacademic trajectory.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
And this idea of cumulative disadvantage and the
Annenberg Institute for SchoolReform has highlighted this like
when those early challengesaren't addressed, they kind of
have this ripple effect.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And it just like impacts them academically, even
socially and emotionally impactsthem academically, even
socially and emotionally.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Wow, that's a powerful way to put it the
ripple effect.
So what can parents do?
Say their child is past thirdgrade and struggling.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Is it too late?
No, not at all.
There's good news here the whatWorks Clearinghouse.
They have a ton of researchshowing that targeted
interventions, even later on,they can help.
It's about finding those gapsand getting the right support.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay, that is really good to hear for parents.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And it kind of speaks to that, like you know, early
intervention thing.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Catching it before those, like ripples, become,
like you know, tidal waves.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
But Chavez doesn't stop at academics.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
He goes into this whole other world.
That I feel like a lot ofpeople don't really talk about
middle school.
Oh yeah, and how puberty justlike throws everything up in the
air.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
It's amazing.
It's like those few years.
It's credible, like they're notjust, you know suddenly taller.
It's like their sense of whothey are is changing where they
fit in socially.
It's all happening at once.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
While their bodies are like changing.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, it's like their brains are trying to do algebra
and figure out like their firstcrush, all at the same time.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And like, with all that change those early gaps
academically, like we talkedabout with multiplication, like
those can become even moreobvious in middle school right.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Oh, absolutely, because middle school is where
you know academics get moreintense.
Yeah, the subjects are morecomplex.
Right, there are higherexpectations, and so those
little gaps they had, say inmath, suddenly impact their
confidence, makes them lesslikely to take risks, which is
so important at that age.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Totally so.
It's like we were talking aboutbuilding a tower.
Now it's like you're adding onthose middle floors and if that
base isn't strong, it's like thewhole structure is.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Exactly Compromised, and what's so interesting is how
Chavez ties this to another bigmilestone for teens.
Getting your driver's license.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Oh, ok, yeah, let's talk about that.
Yeah, because, like driving forteenagers, I mean, come on,
that's like the ultimate freedom.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Right, right, but he's saying it's way more than
just driving, that's like theultimate freedom, right, right.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
But he's saying it's way more than just driving.
It's so much more than justdriving.
He argues that the age when ateam gets their license, it can
really have these hugeimplications and not just like
getting from here to there.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
But navigating the world and all the real
consequences that come with it.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, so it's less about can you like nail that
parallel park?
And more about decision making,responsibility, absolutely All
those things you know as parents, like we want our kids to have,
but it's also terrifying to letthem actually practice.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Oh, I know Right Like .
Imagine this your team'sdriving.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Split?
Second decision Do they followthe rules, Even if their friends
are like, come on, let's go,let's do this, or you know that
urge to text while they'redriving.
They know it's dangerous, Right, but like these are high stakes
decisions they have to make.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And it really shows their maturity level.
That's a heavy responsibility,Not just for the teenager, but
for the parent too.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
It's like we're literally handing over, you know
, the keys to a powerful machine.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, and just hoping we've given them what they need
to handle it.
It's that balance of letting gobut also still being there.
You know, guiding, settingexpectations.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Having those hard conversations about risk peer
pressure.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
What are the consequences of their actions,
good and bad?
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, it's like driving.
It's almost like this, liketraining ground.
You don't really expect forthose like bigger life skills.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Responsibility Thinking ahead.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Good judgment, all that.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Exactly, and it really highlights what Chavez is
getting at here.
We've got to think bigger thanjust these traditional
milestones.
Yeah, it's about the wholepicture, right?
How kids develop.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
It's recognizing that , like kids, they mature
differently.
What one kid's ready for at 16,another kid might need until
they're 17 or 18.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Absolutely.
And this whole idea of liketailoring things to the kid to
their own timeline, it'sinteresting timeline it's
interesting because education iskind of shifting this way.
Anyway, okay, away from thatrigid everybody's the same model
.
Yeah, it's getting morepersonalized.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, it's like meeting kidswhere they're at developmentally
.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And like giving them the support to succeed, not just
in school but, you know,emotionally, socially, the whole
thing.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Absolutely.
And you know, chavez, hefocuses on those very specific
things First grade driver'slicense but it makes you think
right yeah, what else plays intoa child's readiness?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Right, what else beyond those, like markers on
the calendar, you know.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What makes a child truly ready for those next steps
?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's a big question .
It is and I think it's one forall of us right.
Whether you're a parent, ateacher, anyone who works with
young people, it's aconversation to keep having and
there's no easy answer.
No, but it starts with seeingeach child as an individual.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Their strengths, their challenges, their own pace
it all matters.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
This has been such an interesting deep dive John
Chavez's 17, 18, 19.
Redshirting education Everyoneshould check it out.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
It really makes you think.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
It does.
It's a fresh take on thosemilestones we think we know and
just that reminder thatsometimes you know maybe a
detour from the usual path mightbe the best thing for a child.
Absolutely, Help them thrive,Exactly might be the best thing
for a child.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Absolutely Help them thrive.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Exactly and for everyone listening, as you're
figuring these things out inyour own families, your
communities.
Remember there's no one rightanswer.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
It's about what works for that child.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
That's what it comes down to.
Well, thank you for joining usfor this deep dive, and we'll
see you next time.
Keep those minds curious.
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