Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're all trying to figure out the best path for our
kids, aren't we?
It's complex.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Definitely, and one of those really early decisions
a big fork in the road is oftenabout kindergarten.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Right.
When exactly should they start?
You've likely heard the termredshirting.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mm-hmm Holding a child back a year.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, and it's often framed as giving them a bit of
an edge, a stronger start forschool.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's a huge decision for families of an edge, a
stronger start for school.
It's a huge decision forfamilies, lots of hope tied up
in it, but maybe some worry tooabout keeping up Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So today we're doing a deep dive into John Chavez's
book 17, 18, 19, redshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, we want to really get under the skin of
this practice, kind of unpackall the different angles he
presents.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Exactly.
Our goal isn't to sayredshirting is simply good or
bad.
That's too simple.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Right, it's about offering you, the listener, a
more balanced picture.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Using Chavez's insights to look at the
potential upsides, but also,importantly, the drawbacks, the
stuff that's maybe less obvious.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So where should we begin?
The potential benefits Chavezidentifies Sounds good, let's
start there.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
What does he see as the positives of waiting that
extra year?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, a really central idea in the book is what
he calls enhanced readiness.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, readiness yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That extra year.
It can be really crucial fordeveloping those foundational
skills.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Like what specifically?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Think about things like paying attention,
controlling impulses, managingemotions.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Ah, the self-regulation piece.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Exactly A child who's a bit older might just be
better equipped developmentallyfor the structure of school.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Right for the demands of a classroom.
It's about giving them well astronger foundation for learning
.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's the idea Chavez puts forward setting them
up for that stronger start.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Intuitively.
You can see how a little morematurity there can really smooth
out that initial schoolexperience.
And Chavez also talks about howthis might ripple out affecting
the whole classroom, doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
He does.
He suggests that if you havemore kids in the class who are
developmentally ready, well, itcan make for a better learning
environment for everyone.
How?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
so.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You might see fewer disruptions, you know, which
means teachers can spend moretime actually teaching.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Less time on classroom management related to
kids just not being quite readyfor the structure.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Precisely More focus on instruction.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay so a calmer, more focused classroom, that's
definitely appealing.
What about more concrete stuff?
Academics, maybe Focus oninstruction.
Okay so a calmer, more focusedclassroom, that's definitely
appealing.
What about more concrete?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
stuff, Academics maybe.
Yeah, Chavez looks at that too.
He discusses researchsuggesting potential initial
advantages academically and evenathletically.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Athletically too Interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The thinking is, you know, greater cognitive maturity
might mean better scores ontests, better class performance,
at least early on.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And the athletic side .
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, that extra year can mean a real difference in
size, strength, coordination.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Ah, ok, which could open up more opportunities in
sports, especially early sports.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Potentially.
Yes, that's part of theargument.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You can see why parents would find those
potential boosts attractive andI guess also just wanting to
reduce stress for their child.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Absolutely.
Chavez really emphasizes thatGiving them that extra year
might ease the pressure,especially for younger kids who
might struggle to keep up withpeers, maybe 6, 12 months older.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So they don't feel like they're behind right from
the start.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, helping foster more positive attitude towards
school.
You know, building confidenceinstead of early frustration
start.
Yeah, helping foster morepositive attitude towards school
.
You know, building confidenceinstead of early frustration.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
OK, so we've laid out some of the potential positives
.
Chavez discusses enhancedreadiness, classroom dynamics,
academic or athletic edge,reduced stress.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
But like any big choice, you absolutely have to
look at the other side of thecoin.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Right, the potential downside, yeah.
What does Chavez highlightthere?
Things maybe people don't thinkabout as much.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, one of the biggest points and it's a really
critical one is equity.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Equity how so?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Redshirting just isn't an option for everyone.
Think about the cost an extrayear of child care or preschool.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Right, that can be a massive financial burden.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Exactly, especially for families relying on public
schools starting as soon aspossible.
So redshirting could actuallywiden the gap between advantaged
kids and disadvantaged kids.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Creating a kind of disparity right from day one of
kindergarten.
That's a really seriousconsideration.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It really is.
It's not an equal choice forall families.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And you mentioned earlier that readiness could
improve classroom dynamics.
But Chavez also points outpotential challenges there too.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He does.
It's sort of the flip side Ifredshirting becomes more common,
you get classrooms with a muchwider age range.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And that makes things harder for teachers.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It can.
Yeah, you've got kids at verydifferent developmental stages,
different skills, coming in.
It demands more complexteaching, more differentiation,
more sophisticated classroommanagement.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So potentially more work for teachers who are
already juggling so much.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It could certainly add to the complexity of their
job.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
What about the social side for the kids themselves,
the ones who are redshirted?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's another nuanced point Chavez raises.
While some kids might thrivebeing a bit older, others might
actually feel well a bit out ofsync with their yeah, when that
age difference becomes morenoticeable socially and there's
also a risk maybe of unintendedsocial stuff happening because
of the age gap.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Maybe older, more developed kids inadvertently
making younger ones feelexcluded, or maybe some
resentment.
It's subtle.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Those less obvious social dynamics are important,
and Chavez also flags a concernabout delayed intervention.
That sounds serious.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
It is Think about kids who might have, say,
developmental delays or learningdisabilities.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
If you delay kindergarten, you might also
delay identifying those issues,and that means delaying access
to early support services.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Services that can make a huge difference if
started earlier.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Exactly so that delay could be a real negative
consequence for some children.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And one last potential downside Chavez
mentions this idea of pressurePressure to redshirt.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right If it starts becoming the norm or seen as the
better thing to do.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And parents might feel like they have to do it
even if it's not right for theirspecific child.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Precisely, and that could gradually push the average
kindergarten entry age higherfor everyone.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Which could mess with the system and expectations
around early childhood overall.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, potentially placing unintended strain on the
whole education system.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Wow, ok, so it's a really tangled web of potential
pluses and minuses for theindividual child and the
classroom.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And Chavez takes it even further, looking at the
bigger picture implications forthe education system itself.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What are some of those broader effects he talks
about?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, he discusses how expectations might shift,
Like what's considered normalfor a kindergartner's skills.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
If the average kid starting is older.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Then schools might, maybe without meaning, to, start
gearing their curriculumtowards those slightly older,
more mature kids.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Which could put younger kids the ones who aren't
redshirted but are technicallythe right age at a disadvantage.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Exactly.
Even if they meet thetraditional age cutoff, the
goalposts might have subtlymoved.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That could really change the feel of early
elementary education.
What about longer term, beyondthose first few years?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Chavez points out something interesting there.
While you might see those earlyacademic bumps, the ones we
talked about.
Yeah, research often suggeststhose advantages tend to well
level off by middle school orhigh school.
The red-shirted kids don'tnecessarily outperform anymore,
huh.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So the initial advantage fades.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It often seems to, and then, being older when you
finish high school, that couldhave other effects down the line
.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Potentially delaying college entry or starting a
career a bit later.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So it's almost like a trade-off, a possible early
boost for maybe a slightly laterstart on other things.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
That's one way to look at the potential long-term
arc.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And does Chavez mention teachers again, in terms
of how they're prepared?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
He does, if classrooms become more diverse
developmentally because ofredshirting.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Then teacher training might need to change.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It might need to adapt.
Yeah, making sure new teachersreally know how to handle that
wider range of learnerseffectively.
More focus on differentiatedinstruction, maybe a deeper dive
into child development across abroader age span.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That makes sense and, policy-wise, what should
districts or policymakers bethinking about?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
according to Chavez, he suggests they might need to
look again at their kindergartenentry rules.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Because of rising redshirting rates.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, maybe consider more standard age requirements
or perhaps provide much clearerguidance to parents, laying out
all the pros and cons we'vediscussed.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Or maybe alternatives .
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right Things like transitional kindergarten
programs, an extra year ofdevelopment, but without
formally delaying entry into theK-12 sequence.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So we've really covered the potential benefits,
the drawbacks, the system-wideeffects.
It's a lot to weigh, it reallyis.
You've really covered thepotential benefits, the
drawbacks, the system-wideeffects.
It's a lot to weigh.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
But you know, what really struck me reading
Chavez's book was when he sharedhis own family's story, his
son's.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh, absolutely.
That part adds such a crucialhuman layer, doesn't it?
It moves beyond the statistics.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It really does, because his sons had such
different paths and it wasn'talways predictable, based on
when they started school.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
It shows how much else goesinto a child's journey.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So let's touch on those stories.
His oldest son he wasredshirted right.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, graduated high school at 19.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And seemed successful by many metrics.
Good GPA engineering degreecareer.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, 4.1.
Gpa played football, got anelectrical engineering degree.
Has a career now.
Looks like a success story onpaper.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But Chavez mentioned struggles too.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He did.
He shared that his son dealtwith self-confidence issues,
sometimes so redshirting wasn'tlike a magic wand.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Right doesn't erase all potential challenges.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Then the middle son started school on time.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Seems so Star athlete early on middle school.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But things changed.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, high school football dreams kind of got
derailed by injuries.
Academics apparently sufferedafter a move.
Grades weren't as strong.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And his path after school.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
He got a film degree but, chavez notes, the career
path wasn't clear, ended up in ablue-collar job.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So that early athletic promise didn't
translate into a specific kindof quote unquote success later.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Exactly.
It really highlights how thingschange, interests shift.
Life throws curveballs.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And the youngest son also seems like he started on
time.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, described as a brilliant athlete, varsity
quarterback for four years andacademically stellar to like a
four point, five, five GPA.
Wow but a major injury.
His senior year Ended hisseason.
Maybe his football prospects.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And, despite having college football offers, he
decided not to pursue them.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Really After all that .
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and apparently there was some strain in the
relationship with his dad withChavez.
After the injury, the son movedin with his mother.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
That sounds tough.
What's he doing now?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Studying electrical engineering like his oldest
brother.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So another path that took a really unexpected turn,
despite all the early talent andachievement.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's such a powerful illustration, isn't it?
Parenting kids' lives.
They're messy, imperfect, fullof challenges.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And Chavez seems to reflect on that directly that
growth comes through thosechallenges.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yes, that's kind of the core reflection.
We try to make the bestdecisions, like whether to
redshirt, but ultimately thejourney is complex.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Then maybe those struggles are actually essential
parts of development.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That seems to be his takeaway, which brings us right
back to the redshirting decision.
It's just one piece of a huge,unpredictable puzzle.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It really puts it in perspective.
It's not just a simple pro-conlist.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Not when you look at real lives.
No, Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So, as we wrap up this deep dive drawing heavily
on John Chavez's book and hisreflections, what's the main
thing you're taking away?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
For me it really boils down to just how
multifaceted this is.
Red shirting, yes, there arepotential upsides maybe short
term boosts for a child, maybefor the classroom but there are
significant potential downsides,too big ones like equity and
the fact that those long termbenefits aren't guaranteed.
They might fade.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
And, like Shaveh's own family, shows so many other
things shape a child's lifebeyond just their kindergarten
start date.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Absolutely.
It's clearly not aone-size-fits-all situation.
There's no single right answer.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
The diversity of experiences, even within one
family, as Shabba has sharedhammers that home.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It really does and it leaves you thinking, doesn't it
?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
About what.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Well, how is all this conversation around readiness
and the fact that more peopleare redshirting?
How is that changing how weeven define readiness?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Are we shifting the goalposts societally?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Maybe, and what are the knock-on effects of that for
kids' development long term andfor fairness, for equity in our
education system?
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That's definitely something to chew on, a lot to
think about in our own context,based on what we see around us.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
For sure it warrants some real personal reflection.
We're all trying to figure out the best path for our
kids, aren't we?
It's complex.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Definitely, and one of those really early decisions
a big fork in the road is oftenabout kindergarten.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Right.
When exactly should they start?
You've likely heard the termredshirting.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mm-hmm Holding a child back a year.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Yeah, and it's often framed as giving them a bit of
an edge, a stronger start forschool.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
It's a huge decision for families of an edge, a
stronger start for school.
It's a huge decision forfamilies, lots of hope tied up
in it, but maybe some worry tooabout keeping up Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So today we're doing a deep dive into John Chavez's
book 17, 18, 19, redshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, we want to really get under the skin of
this practice, kind of unpackall the different angles he
presents.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Exactly.
Our goal isn't to sayredshirting is simply good or
bad.
That's too simple.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Right, it's about offering you, the listener, a
more balanced picture.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Using Chavez's insights to look at the
potential upsides, but also,importantly, the drawbacks, the
stuff that's maybe less obvious.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So where should we begin?
The potential benefits Chavezidentifies Sounds good, let's
start there.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
What does he see as the positives of waiting that
extra year?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, a really central idea in the book is what
he calls enhanced readiness.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Okay, readiness yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
That extra year.
It can be really crucial fordeveloping those foundational
skills.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Like what specifically?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Think about things like paying attention,
controlling impulses, managingemotions.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Ah, the self-regulation piece.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Exactly A child who's a bit older might just be
better equipped developmentallyfor the structure of school.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Right for the demands of a classroom.
It's about giving them well astronger foundation for learning
.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's the idea Chavez puts forward setting them
up for that stronger start.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That makes a lot of sense.
Intuitively.
You can see how a little morematurity there can really smooth
out that initial schoolexperience.
And Chavez also talks about howthis might ripple out affecting
the whole classroom, doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
He does.
He suggests that if you havemore kids in the class who are
developmentally ready, well, itcan make for a better learning
environment for everyone.
How?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
so.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
You might see fewer disruptions, you know, which
means teachers can spend moretime actually teaching.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Less time on classroom management related to
kids just not being quite readyfor the structure.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Precisely More focus on instruction.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay so a calmer, more focused classroom, that's
definitely appealing.
What about more concrete stuff?
Academics, maybe Focus oninstruction.
Okay so a calmer, more focusedclassroom, that's definitely
appealing.
What about more concrete?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
stuff, Academics maybe.
Yeah, Chavez looks at that too.
He discusses researchsuggesting potential initial
advantages academically and evenathletically.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Athletically too Interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The thinking is, you know, greater cognitive maturity
might mean better scores ontests, better class performance,
at least early on.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
And the athletic side .
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, that extra year can mean a real difference in
size, strength, coordination.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Ah, ok, which could open up more opportunities in
sports, especially early sports.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Potentially.
Yes, that's part of theargument.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You can see why parents would find those
potential boosts attractive andI guess also just wanting to
reduce stress for their child.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Absolutely.
Chavez really emphasizes thatGiving them that extra year
might ease the pressure,especially for younger kids who
might struggle to keep up withpeers, maybe 6, 12 months older.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So they don't feel like they're behind right from
the start.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, helping foster more positive attitude towards
school.
You know, building confidenceinstead of early frustration
start.
Yeah, helping foster morepositive attitude towards school
.
You know, building confidenceinstead of early frustration.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
OK, so we've laid out some of the potential positives
.
Chavez discusses enhancedreadiness, classroom dynamics,
academic or athletic edge,reduced stress.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
But like any big choice, you absolutely have to
look at the other side of thecoin.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Right, the potential downside, yeah.
What does Chavez highlightthere?
Things maybe people don't thinkabout as much.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Well, one of the biggest points and it's a really
critical one is equity.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Equity how so?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Redshirting just isn't an option for everyone.
Think about the cost an extrayear of child care or preschool.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Right, that can be a massive financial burden.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Exactly, especially for families relying on public
schools starting as soon aspossible.
So redshirting could actuallywiden the gap between advantaged
kids and disadvantaged kids.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Creating a kind of disparity right from day one of
kindergarten.
That's a really seriousconsideration.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It really is.
It's not an equal choice forall families.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And you mentioned earlier that readiness could
improve classroom dynamics.
But Chavez also points outpotential challenges there too.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
He does.
It's sort of the flip side Ifredshirting becomes more common,
you get classrooms with a muchwider age range.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And that makes things harder for teachers.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It can.
Yeah, you've got kids at verydifferent developmental stages,
different skills, coming in.
It demands more complexteaching, more differentiation,
more sophisticated classroommanagement.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
So potentially more work for teachers who are
already juggling so much.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It could certainly add to the complexity of their
job.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
What about the social side for the kids themselves,
the ones who are redshirted?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
That's another nuanced point Chavez raises.
While some kids might thrivebeing a bit older, others might
actually feel well a bit out ofsync with their yeah, when that
age difference becomes morenoticeable socially and there's
also a risk maybe of unintendedsocial stuff happening because
of the age gap.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Maybe older, more developed kids inadvertently
making younger ones feelexcluded, or maybe some
resentment.
It's subtle.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Those less obvious social dynamics are important,
and Chavez also flags a concernabout delayed intervention.
That sounds serious.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
It is Think about kids who might have, say,
developmental delays or learningdisabilities.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
If you delay kindergarten, you might also
delay identifying those issues,and that means delaying access
to early support services.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Services that can make a huge difference if
started earlier.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Exactly so that delay could be a real negative
consequence for some children.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
And one last potential downside Chavez
mentions this idea of pressurePressure to redshirt.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right If it starts becoming the norm or seen as the
better thing to do.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And parents might feel like they have to do it
even if it's not right for theirspecific child.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Precisely, and that could gradually push the average
kindergarten entry age higherfor everyone.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Which could mess with the system and expectations
around early childhood overall.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, potentially placing unintended strain on the
whole education system.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Wow, ok, so it's a really tangled web of potential
pluses and minuses for theindividual child and the
classroom.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And Chavez takes it even further, looking at the
bigger picture implications forthe education system itself.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What are some of those broader effects he talks
about?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, he discusses how expectations might shift,
Like what's considered normalfor a kindergartner's skills.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
If the average kid starting is older.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Then schools might, maybe without meaning, to, start
gearing their curriculumtowards those slightly older,
more mature kids.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Which could put younger kids the ones who aren't
redshirted but are technicallythe right age at a disadvantage.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Exactly.
Even if they meet thetraditional age cutoff, the
goalposts might have subtlymoved.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
That could really change the feel of early
elementary education.
What about longer term, beyondthose first few years?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Chavez points out something interesting there.
While you might see those earlyacademic bumps, the ones we
talked about.
Yeah, research often suggeststhose advantages tend to well
level off by middle school orhigh school.
The red-shirted kids don'tnecessarily outperform anymore,
huh.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So the initial advantage fades.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It often seems to, and then, being older when you
finish high school, that couldhave other effects down the line
.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Like what.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Potentially delaying college entry or starting a
career a bit later.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So it's almost like a trade-off, a possible early
boost for maybe a slightly laterstart on other things.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
That's one way to look at the potential long-term
arc.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
And does Chavez mention teachers again, in terms
of how they're prepared?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
He does, if classrooms become more diverse
developmentally because ofredshirting.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Then teacher training might need to change.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It might need to adapt.
Yeah, making sure new teachersreally know how to handle that
wider range of learnerseffectively.
More focus on differentiatedinstruction, maybe a deeper dive
into child development across abroader age span.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
That makes sense and, policy-wise, what should
districts or policymakers bethinking about?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
according to Chavez, he suggests they might need to
look again at their kindergartenentry rules.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Because of rising redshirting rates.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, maybe consider more standard age requirements
or perhaps provide much clearerguidance to parents, laying out
all the pros and cons we'vediscussed.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Or maybe alternatives .
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right Things like transitional kindergarten
programs, an extra year ofdevelopment, but without
formally delaying entry into theK-12 sequence.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
So we've really covered the potential benefits,
the drawbacks, the system-wideeffects.
It's a lot to weigh, it reallyis.
You've really covered thepotential benefits, the
drawbacks, the system-wideeffects.
It's a lot to weigh.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
But you know, what really struck me reading
Chavez's book was when he sharedhis own family's story, his
son's.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh, absolutely.
That part adds such a crucialhuman layer, doesn't it?
It moves beyond the statistics.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
It really does, because his sons had such
different paths and it wasn'talways predictable, based on
when they started school.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Exactly.
It shows how much else goesinto a child's journey.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So let's touch on those stories.
His oldest son he wasredshirted right.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yes, graduated high school at 19.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And seemed successful by many metrics.
Good GPA engineering degreecareer.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, 4.1.
Gpa played football, got anelectrical engineering degree.
Has a career now.
Looks like a success story onpaper.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But Chavez mentioned struggles too.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He did.
He shared that his son dealtwith self-confidence issues,
sometimes so redshirting wasn'tlike a magic wand.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Right doesn't erase all potential challenges.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Then the middle son started school on time.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Seems so Star athlete early on middle school.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But things changed.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yeah, high school football dreams kind of got
derailed by injuries.
Academics apparently sufferedafter a move.
Grades weren't as strong.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
And his path after school.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
He got a film degree but, chavez notes, the career
path wasn't clear, ended up in ablue-collar job.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So that early athletic promise didn't
translate into a specific kindof quote unquote success later.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Exactly.
It really highlights how thingschange, interests shift.
Life throws curveballs.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And the youngest son also seems like he started on
time.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, described as a brilliant athlete, varsity
quarterback for four years andacademically stellar to like a
four point, five, five GPA.
Wow but a major injury.
His senior year Ended hisseason.
Maybe his football prospects.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And, despite having college football offers, he
decided not to pursue them.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Really After all that .
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, and apparently there was some strain in the
relationship with his dad withChavez.
After the injury, the son movedin with his mother.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
That sounds tough.
What's he doing now?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Studying electrical engineering like his oldest
brother.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So another path that took a really unexpected turn,
despite all the early talent andachievement.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
It's such a powerful illustration, isn't it?
Parenting kids' lives.
They're messy, imperfect, fullof challenges.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And Chavez seems to reflect on that directly that
growth comes through thosechallenges.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yes, that's kind of the core reflection.
We try to make the bestdecisions, like whether to
redshirt, but ultimately thejourney is complex.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Then maybe those struggles are actually essential
parts of development.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
That seems to be his takeaway, which brings us right
back to the redshirting decision.
It's just one piece of a huge,unpredictable puzzle.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It really puts it in perspective.
It's not just a simple pro-conlist.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Not when you look at real lives.
No, Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So, as we wrap up this deep dive drawing heavily
on John Chavez's book and hisreflections, what's the main
thing you're taking away?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
For me it really boils down to just how
multifaceted this is.
Red shirting, yes, there arepotential upsides maybe short
term boosts for a child, maybefor the classroom but there are
significant potential downsides,too big ones like equity and
the fact that those long termbenefits aren't guaranteed.
They might fade.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
And, like Shaveh's own family, shows so many other
things shape a child's lifebeyond just their kindergarten
start date.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Absolutely.
It's clearly not aone-size-fits-all situation.
There's no single right answer.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
The diversity of experiences, even within one
family, as Shabba has sharedhammers that home.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It really does and it leaves you thinking, doesn't it
?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
About what.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Well, how is all this conversation around readiness
and the fact that more peopleare redshirting?
How is that changing how weeven define readiness?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Are we shifting the goalposts societally?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Maybe, and what are the knock-on effects of that for
kids' development long term andfor fairness, for equity in our
education system?
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That's definitely something to chew on, a lot to
think about in our own context,based on what we see around us.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
For sure it warrants some real personal reflection.
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