Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Deep Dive.
So we got some reallyinteresting material sent over,
particularly that book by JohnChavez.
17, 18, 19, redshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And it really got us thinking.
You know, beyond the usualsuspects, the grades, the test
scores, what really sets youngpeople up for well college and
careers.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, we spend so much time on those measurable
things, the GPAs, the SATs.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Exactly, but Chavez, he points to something else,
something quieter maybe.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's a good way to put it.
Less tangible, definitely, buthe argues it's incredibly
powerful for where kids end up.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So okay, let's dig into that.
If we push aside thetranscripts for a second, what
is this skill, this quietlypowerful factor, he's talking
about?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, that's our mission for this deep dive,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It is.
We're focusing on what Chavezcalls likability and trying to
unpack why he sees it as socritical for being ready for
well everything that comes afterhigh school.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And it's really important right off the bat to
clarify what he means bylikability.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Good point, because it's not about being the life of
the party.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Or just trying to please everyone?
Not at all.
He defines it in a much deeperway.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it seems rooted in genuine connection, like how
do people actually feel whenthey interact with you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Exactly, and he breaks that down into things
like empathy, emotionalintelligence.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Authenticity, humility.
It's about the real substance,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Totally, and he outlines some core traits that
make up this kind of authenticlikability.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Okay, let's take through those.
What's first?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Empathy, so really being able to tune in to what
others are feeling and, you know, respond thoughtfully, not just
notice it, but get it.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Right, and then self-awareness, which is well,
it's knowing how you land withpeople, right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Precisely Understanding your impact and
being mature enough to adjust.
You know, without losing, whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Makes sense.
He also mentions humor.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, but the inclusive kind, the kind that
brings people together, doesn'tpush anyone out.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay and straightforward.
Kindness, just being decent.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Pretty much Genuine good wits, no hidden agenda.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And the last one he highlights is confidence, but
without the arrogance.
That's a tricky balancesometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It really is.
It's that quiet self-assurance,knowing your worth without
needing to like broadcast it orput others down that draws
people in.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so that's the what Empathy, self-awareness,
humor, kindness, confidenthumility.
Now the why why does Chavezargue this is so vital, starting
with, say, college?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, think about the college environment.
Likeability, as he defined it,sort of lubricates relationships
.
How so Take professors oradvisors?
If a student is engaging seemsgenuinely curious.
It's just easy to connect with.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That professor is probably more likely to invest
in them.
Right Offer guidance, maybementorship.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Exactly.
It moves beyond just atransaction and you feel more
comfortable asking for help.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Makes perfect sense.
And it's not just professors, Iassume.
What about peers?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh, absolutely critical.
College is so collaborativeGroup projects, study groups,
just navigating campus life yeah, you need to be able to get
along, find people to work with,get help when you're stuck.
Being likable just makes allthat easier.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It helps you build that support network and
contribute positively.
Okay, so it smooths the path incollege.
Now, looking further ahead,chavez calls it a career
accelerator.
That sounds significant.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It does, doesn't it?
His point is think about jobinterviews.
Right, you could have all thequalifications on paper, perfect
resume, but in that interview,they're also thinking do I want
to work with this person everyday?
Exactly, it's the fit factor.
Being competent is essential,obviously yeah, but being
someone people genuinely connectwith, that can be the
(03:41):
tiebreaker Big time.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, you can be brilliant, but if you're
difficult to work with, thataffects the whole team Totally.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And Chavez points out , leadership often isn't just
about being the smartest personin the room.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
It's about trust, isn't it?
People following someone theyactually want to follow.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Precisely Likeability builds that trust.
It makes people want tocollaborate with you and when
you look at promotions, it's notjust about your individual
output.
Rarely.
It's also about how well youbuild relationships, navigate
different personalities, managethe social dynamics of the
workplace.
That's huge for moving up.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So it impacts getting the job and advancing in it.
He lists quite a few specificareas affected by this, doesn't
he?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
He does?
He talks about internships.
How often those come throughconnections or recommendations?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Which ties into letters of recommendation
themselves.
A professor you've actuallyconnected with will write a much
stronger letter.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No question, they genuinely like you.
They advocate harder.
Then there's things likeroommate situations in college.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh yeah, that can make or break an experience.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Totally, and campus involvement, getting into clubs,
taking on roles it all relieson those interpersonal skills.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And then circling back to the career stuff job
offers, promotions and,crucially, long-term networking.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right.
People help people they likeand remember positively.
It just opens doors down theline.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
He uses his own kids as examples too, which is quite
interesting.
The different ways thislikability edge played out.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, those anecdotes really bring it to life.
His oldest son, who wasredshirted.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right, given that extra year before starting
school?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Chavez describes him developing this quiet charisma.
He wasn't loud, but teachers,coaches, they trusted him.
He learned to disagreerespectfully, connect
authentically, became a naturalleader.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And the youngest also redshirted.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Similar outcome, maybe slightly different flavor
calm confidence.
When he spoke, people listened,not because he demanded it, but
because he seemed focused ongenuinely connecting.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
That's subtle but powerful, and the contrast is
with the middle son.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Who graduated early.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Chavez observed his relationships with adults were
maybe a bit more transactional,still capable, of course, right,
but he had to consciously workon those relational skills later
, skills the others developedmore naturally with that extra
time.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Which really drives home the point that this isn't
just innate, it can be developed.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Exactly, which leads to the next question how do you
teach it?
How do you nurture likability?
Chavez has thoughts on that too.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, practical stuff like modeling.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Huge Kids watch everything.
So showing them how to listen,actively, disagree without
attacking, give genuinecompliments that sets the
standard.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And he mentions praising empathy when you see it
like actively pointing it out.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, reinforcing that behavior.
That was really kind how younoticed Sarah was upset, that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
He also pushes for group activities right Sports
clubs Right, because those arenatural environments for
learning, collaboration,patience, even leadership.
You have to figure out how towork with others.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And, on the flip side , giving gentle feedback when
things go wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, direct, but kind correction.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like if a kid constantly interrupts or avoids
eye contact.
Not shaming them, but guidingthem towards better habits.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
He even gets into small things like remembering
names.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Which seems small, but it makes a big difference in
how people feel, seen, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Definitely, and role-playing, like practicing
handshakes, small talk, thankyou notes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, actually practicing those real-world
scenarios builds confidence and,frankly, competence in those
basic social interactions.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Okay, let's loop back to redshirting specifically.
How does Chavez tie that extrayear directly to developing this
likability factor?
His?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
argument is basically that older students often just
have more emotional bandwidth,more maturity.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
They've maybe seen a bit more handled, more social
situations, maybe failed a fewtimes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Exactly More experience with complexity
resilience.
That extra year gives theirsocial skills and self-awareness
more time to develop beforethey hit those really high
stakes environments like collegeor first jobs.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So they arrive with maybe deeper social roots,
stronger self-esteem.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
That's the idea, and he's careful to say it's not
about manipulation, it's aboutgenuine maturity and social
intelligence being moredeveloped.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So, bringing it all together, what's the core
takeaway from Chavez onlikability?
Why hammer this point home?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think his final point is that likability defined
this way is actual influence.
It's not just nice to have.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It opens doors.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It opens doors, invites collaboration, builds
trust.
In a world overflowing withtalent, that ability to connect,
to be trusted, to be someonepeople want to work with.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
That becomes a serious advantage.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
He basically frames it as a crucial soft skill that
functions like a very powerfulhard skill in the real world.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Right.
So, wrapping up this deep dive,the message seems clear
Academics matter, activitiesmatter, but don't underestimate
this power of authenticconnection, the empathy, the
self-awareness, the kindness.
Chavez makes a strong case thatcultivating this likability is
a really significant piece ofthe college and career readiness
puzzle.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It really is.
It's about the impact you haveon others and how that ripples
outwards.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Which leaves us with a question for you, the listener
, to maybe chew on for you, thelistener, to maybe chew on.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, thinking about all the empathy, awareness
connection.
How might intentionally workingon your own likability traits
actually shift your interactions, your opportunities?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's interesting to consider, isn't it that subtle
but potentially huge influenceof how we genuinely connect with
people.
Something to think about.
Welcome back to the Deep Dive.
So we got some reallyinteresting material sent over,
particularly that book by JohnChavez.
17, 18, 19, redshirtingEducation.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And it really got us thinking.
You know, beyond the usualsuspects, the grades, the test
scores, what really sets youngpeople up for well college and
careers.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, we spend so much time on those measurable
things, the GPAs, the SATs.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Exactly, but Chavez, he points to something else,
something quieter maybe.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's a good way to put it.
Less tangible, definitely, buthe argues it's incredibly
powerful for where kids end up.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So okay, let's dig into that.
If we push aside thetranscripts for a second, what
is this skill, this quietlypowerful factor, he's talking
about?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Well, that's our mission for this deep dive,
isn't it?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It is.
We're focusing on what Chavezcalls likability and trying to
unpack why he sees it as socritical for being ready for
well everything that comes afterhigh school.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And it's really important right off the bat to
clarify what he means bylikability.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Good point, because it's not about being the life of
the party.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Or just trying to please everyone?
Not at all.
He defines it in a much deeperway.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, it seems rooted in genuine connection, like how
do people actually feel whenthey interact with you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Exactly, and he breaks that down into things
like empathy, emotionalintelligence.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Authenticity, humility.
It's about the real substance,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Totally, and he outlines some core traits that
make up this kind of authenticlikability.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Okay, let's take through those.
What's first?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Empathy, so really being able to tune in to what
others are feeling and, you know, respond thoughtfully, not just
notice it, but get it.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Right, and then self-awareness, which is well,
it's knowing how you land withpeople, right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Precisely Understanding your impact and
being mature enough to adjust.
You know, without losing, whoyou are.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Makes sense.
He also mentions humor.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, but the inclusive kind, the kind that
brings people together, doesn'tpush anyone out.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay and straightforward.
Kindness, just being decent.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Pretty much Genuine good wits, no hidden agenda.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And the last one he highlights is confidence, but
without the arrogance.
That's a tricky balancesometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It really is.
It's that quiet self-assurance,knowing your worth without
needing to like broadcast it orput others down that draws
people in.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so that's the what Empathy, self-awareness,
humor, kindness, confidenthumility.
Now the why why does Chavezargue this is so vital, starting
with, say, college?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, think about the college environment.
Likeability, as he defined it,sort of lubricates relationships
.
How so Take professors oradvisors?
If a student is engaging seemsgenuinely curious.
It's just easy to connect with.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That professor is probably more likely to invest
in them.
Right Offer guidance, maybementorship.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Exactly.
It moves beyond just atransaction and you feel more
comfortable asking for help.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Makes perfect sense.
And it's not just professors, Iassume.
What about peers?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh, absolutely critical.
College is so collaborativeGroup projects, study groups,
just navigating campus life yeah, you need to be able to get
along, find people to work with,get help when you're stuck.
Being likable just makes allthat easier.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It helps you build that support network and
contribute positively.
Okay, so it smooths the path incollege.
Now, looking further ahead,chavez calls it a career
accelerator.
That sounds significant.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
It does, doesn't it?
His point is think about jobinterviews.
Right, you could have all thequalifications on paper, perfect
resume, but in that interview,they're also thinking do I want
to work with this person everyday?
Exactly, it's the fit factor.
Being competent is essential,obviously yeah, but being
someone people genuinely connectwith, that can be the
(03:41):
tiebreaker Big time.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, you can be brilliant, but if you're
difficult to work with, thataffects the whole team Totally.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And Chavez points out , leadership often isn't just
about being the smartest personin the room.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
It's about trust, isn't it?
People following someone theyactually want to follow.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Precisely Likeability builds that trust.
It makes people want tocollaborate with you and when
you look at promotions, it's notjust about your individual
output.
Rarely.
It's also about how well youbuild relationships, navigate
different personalities, managethe social dynamics of the
workplace.
That's huge for moving up.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So it impacts getting the job and advancing in it.
He lists quite a few specificareas affected by this, doesn't
he?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
He does?
He talks about internships.
How often those come throughconnections or recommendations?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Which ties into letters of recommendation
themselves.
A professor you've actuallyconnected with will write a much
stronger letter.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No question, they genuinely like you.
They advocate harder.
Then there's things likeroommate situations in college.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh yeah, that can make or break an experience.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Totally, and campus involvement, getting into clubs,
taking on roles it all relieson those interpersonal skills.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And then circling back to the career stuff job
offers, promotions and,crucially, long-term networking.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right.
People help people they likeand remember positively.
It just opens doors down theline.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
He uses his own kids as examples too, which is quite
interesting.
The different ways thislikability edge played out.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Yeah, those anecdotes really bring it to life.
His oldest son, who wasredshirted.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right, given that extra year before starting
school?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Chavez describes him developing this quiet charisma.
He wasn't loud, but teachers,coaches, they trusted him.
He learned to disagreerespectfully, connect
authentically, became a naturalleader.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And the youngest also redshirted.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Similar outcome, maybe slightly different flavor
calm confidence.
When he spoke, people listened,not because he demanded it, but
because he seemed focused ongenuinely connecting.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
That's subtle but powerful, and the contrast is
with the middle son.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Who graduated early.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Chavez observed his relationships with adults were
maybe a bit more transactional,still capable, of course, right,
but he had to consciously workon those relational skills later
, skills the others developedmore naturally with that extra
time.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Which really drives home the point that this isn't
just innate, it can be developed.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Exactly, which leads to the next question how do you
teach it?
How do you nurture likability?
Chavez has thoughts on that too.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, practical stuff like modeling.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Huge Kids watch everything.
So showing them how to listen,actively, disagree without
attacking, give genuinecompliments that sets the
standard.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And he mentions praising empathy when you see it
like actively pointing it out.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, reinforcing that behavior.
That was really kind how younoticed Sarah was upset, that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
He also pushes for group activities right Sports
clubs Right, because those arenatural environments for
learning, collaboration,patience, even leadership.
You have to figure out how towork with others.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And, on the flip side , giving gentle feedback when
things go wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, direct, but kind correction.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Like if a kid constantly interrupts or avoids
eye contact.
Not shaming them, but guidingthem towards better habits.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
He even gets into small things like remembering
names.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Which seems small, but it makes a big difference in
how people feel, seen, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Definitely, and role-playing, like practicing
handshakes, small talk, thankyou notes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, actually practicing those real-world
scenarios builds confidence and,frankly, competence in those
basic social interactions.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Okay, let's loop back to redshirting specifically.
How does Chavez tie that extrayear directly to developing this
likability factor?
His?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
argument is basically that older students often just
have more emotional bandwidth,more maturity.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
They've maybe seen a bit more handled, more social
situations, maybe failed a fewtimes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Exactly More experience with complexity
resilience.
That extra year gives theirsocial skills and self-awareness
more time to develop beforethey hit those really high
stakes environments like collegeor first jobs.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So they arrive with maybe deeper social roots,
stronger self-esteem.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
That's the idea, and he's careful to say it's not
about manipulation, it's aboutgenuine maturity and social
intelligence being moredeveloped.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
So, bringing it all together, what's the core
takeaway from Chavez onlikability?
Why hammer this point home?
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I think his final point is that likability defined
this way is actual influence.
It's not just nice to have.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
It opens doors.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It opens doors, invites collaboration, builds
trust.
In a world overflowing withtalent, that ability to connect,
to be trusted, to be someonepeople want to work with.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
That becomes a serious advantage.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
He basically frames it as a crucial soft skill that
functions like a very powerfulhard skill in the real world.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Right.
So, wrapping up this deep dive,the message seems clear
Academics matter, activitiesmatter, but don't underestimate
this power of authenticconnection, the empathy, the
self-awareness, the kindness.
Chavez makes a strong case thatcultivating this likability is
a really significant piece ofthe college and career readiness
puzzle.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It really is.
It's about the impact you haveon others and how that ripples
outwards.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Which leaves us with a question for you, the listener
, to maybe chew on for you, thelistener, to maybe chew on.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, thinking about all the empathy, awareness
connection.
How might intentionally workingon your own likability traits
actually shift your interactions, your opportunities?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's interesting to consider, isn't it that subtle
but potentially huge influenceof how we genuinely connect with
people.
Something to think about.
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