May 22, 2025 • 53 mins
Episode 4: The only thing stopping 80,000 pounds from crashing into you and your family on our highways are the brakes on commercial vehicles. Commercial fleets must balance safety for the public and their drivers with the economics of operating a commercial trucking fleet in Canada. The stakes have never been higher and one bad decision on brakes can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Key Topics Covered
- Brake Safety Week in Canada found 12.6% of inspections led to brake-related out-of-service violations
- Investing 8-10% more in quality brake components can significantly reduce total operating costs
- One fleet saved nearly $100,000 by upgrading to higher quality friction materials
- Air disc brakes now account for 50% of North American Class 8 trucks, expected to reach 75% by 2030
- Proper brake identification requires understanding differences between manufacturers and models
- Quality friction materials contain better lubricants, abrasives, and undergo more precise manufacturing
- Thorough brake inspections must check component wear, air system integrity, and proper adjustment
- Technicians must verify brake geometry and stroke measurements during installation and adjustment
Guest Bios
- Jay Kay: Joe has been with the Brake engineering team for 30 years. Joe started when the company was Rockwell International, then it became Meritor and now is part of Cummins.
- Robert Goodwin: Robert has 53 years of experience in heavy-duty parts and has been with PFT for 38 years, he is now serving as our Manager, Customer Care Help Desk in Eastern Canada.
- Phil Hutton: Service Manager in our Dartmouth. Phil leads his team as they service our customers equipment.
Connect with Us: This podcast is available on PartsForTrucks.com/podcast, YouTube, and all major podcast platforms.
Disclaimer: The Parts For Trucks podcast is produced by Parts for Trucks, Inc for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content, opinions, and views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views, policies, or positions of Parts For Trucks, Inc. Read more...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Robert Goodwin (00:00):
And he said to me.
He said the saving in thatparticular fleet of about 50
tractors and 90 odd trailers wasin almost $100,000.
By investing 8 and 10% more inthat brake job he saved all that
money that money.
Jamie Irvine (00:23):
In each episode of the Parts for Trucks podcast,
you will walk away with tools,strategies and knowledge to make
your job easier, cut costs andelevate your performance in the
heavy-duty trucking industry.
In this episode, we are goingto talk about the only thing
stopping 80,000 pounds fromcrashing into you and your
(00:46):
family.
That's right, we're talkingabout brakes on commercial
trucks and trailers.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Welcome to the Parts for Trucks podcast, where we
explore the latest trends,technologies and strategies in
the heavy-duty trucking industry.
Each episode you'll hear fromindustry experts to help keep
your trucks on the road and yourbusiness thriving.
Now let's get into gear.
Here's your host, jamie Urban.
Jamie Irvine (01:18):
Now let me give you a little background on the
subject of brakes as it relatesto commercial vehicles here in
Canada.
According to Transport Canada,there are approximately 3
million commercial vehicles onthe road.
Of those 3 million, 553,905 ofthem are in the class 7 and 8
(01:41):
category, meaning they weigh11,794 kilograms or more, and
this is according to the mostup-to-date statistics that we
have, which brings us up to 2023.
So those numbers get us intothe ballpark of what the
condition is today on ourCanadian roads.
(02:02):
Today on our Canadian roads,brake Safety Week will be
conducted this year betweenAugust 24th and 30th 2025.
Last year, the CVSA, those1,926 inspections 243 of those
(02:29):
inspections led to brake-relatedout-of-service violations.
That means that 12.6% of theinspections done here in Canada
ended with a brake-relatedout-of-service violation.
So there's obviously room forimprovement.
I'm sure you've got somequestions about brakes.
(02:50):
I've got some questions aboutbrakes.
Things that I want to know arewhat's the best brakes for
trucks that are going to be inthe Canadian market, that are
going to travel on Canadianroads, dealing with the kind of
unique Canadian conditions thatwe often experience?
Another question is how do youfigure out what the break you
(03:11):
just chose for your commercialtruck or trailer is going to
cost you in total, not just thepurchase price but the total
cost.
And what's happening when itcomes to the types of brakes
that we're seeing on commercialtrucks and trailers?
The S-cam, or foundation brakeshave been very consistent for
many decades, but we also haveseen the emergence of air disc
(03:35):
brake technology, which isadvancing quite rapidly.
So what's the story there?
It's these kinds of questionsthat we're going to answer in
today's episode, which leads meto our first guest.
Our first guest is Joe Kay.
It's these kinds of questionsthat we're going to answer in
today's episode which leads meto our first guest.
Our first guest is Joe Kay.
He's the director of brakeengineering North America for
Cummins Meritor.
Now Joe has been with the brakeengineering team for 30 years.
(03:58):
Joe started when the companywas Rockwell International.
He has been with the companythrough several changes when
they became Meritor and nowthey're part of Cummins.
He has expertise in everythingrelated to both foundation
brakes and air disc brakes andall of the components, and as
the director of brakeengineering, he works with both
(04:20):
the original equipment andaftermarket team.
So this is someone who we canreally really benefit from his
knowledge.
Joe, welcome to the Parts forTrucks podcast.
Jay Kay (04:35):
So glad to have you here.
Yeah, thanks a lot.
I'm kind of excited to do this.
I always like to share some ofmy knowledge that I've gained
over the last 30 years in brakesystems, so hopefully we can get
some good answers for you today.
Jamie Irvine (04:44):
Well, and brakes are kind of important, right?
Because when you're talkingabout stopping 80,000 pounds
from smashing into you and yourfamily or careening off one of
our highways, brakes are kind ofimportant.
So let me ask you something.
If you're operating acommercial truck and trailer
trailer with air brakes whattypically are the top one or two
(05:05):
problems involved in makingsure that you are getting the
best performance out of yourbrakes and that everything is
going well?
Jay Kay (05:15):
We always recommend do your service intervals, make
sure operators are going aroundlooking at your vehicle.
Just from your CDL operationlicense.
We always recommend that, andso brake health is a big piece
of it as far as, when it comesdown to, you know like what kind
of things you know aretypically seen happening.
You know your brake pad lifeand drum or rotor life,
(05:39):
depending if you're running discor drum, but that's usually
some of the bigger things thatyou know there happen.
You know brakes they use whatwe call a wearable friction
material.
You know so.
You know we haven't come upwith anything, you know, earth
shattering or magical, so youknow the brake pads will still
wear.
You know there's a energyexchange that we want to make
sure happens correctly in orderfor that vehicle to stop.
(06:02):
You know, in the distance thatit needs to.
You know so.
Then the other thing is likeyour drum or your rotor, making
sure that that's, you know, veryfunctional, in good shape, no
cracks, no missing pieces,things like that.
And these are some of the basicthings that the Department of
Transportation will look at.
You know, if they're stoppingyour vehicle and taking a look
at it too, they kind of startwith those pieces Then they'll.
(06:24):
Then they'll kind of go throughthe brake system and you know,
make sure the slack adjuster ifyou have a drum brake it's
really easy to check to see ifyour your brake is functioning.
They'll have you apply thebrake and you know like if your
your brake stroke is too longmay indicate that you got a
slack adjuster issue and you'dhave to change that component.
Jamie Irvine (06:43):
Well, that brings me to selecting the right
friction material for yourvocation and making sure that
you're matching up the frictionmaterial that you're buying, the
components that you're buying,matching that up to the actual
needs of the environment thatyou're operating in.
It's a little more complex thanI think a lot of people realize
(07:05):
and certainly when we get achance to talk to people with
your level of experience, it'spretty quickly we can understand
why this is such a complexanswer and obviously it's
important for distributors likeus to be able to have this
information to guide ourcustomers to make good decisions
when we're recommending yourproducts as the manufacturer.
(07:25):
So let me ask you let's startright at the beginning 101, how
does friction material actuallywork?
Jay Kay (07:33):
In order to retard the vehicle or stop the vehicle, we
have to apply a very large forceto the brake shoe or the brake
pad and then that brake pad rubsup against the drum or the
rotor.
That interaction causesfriction.
It causes heat, you know, andthat heat is what we call.
It's a thermal exchange.
(07:53):
That's how the energy exchangehappens.
You probably heard it, you know, kind of at high levels.
But the function of that brakefriction material is to do just
that it.
It's to rub against the drumand, you know, create that
energy exchange.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent elements that actually
get used in friction materialsand you know kind of a theory
(08:14):
you get what you pay for, right,you know, with all materials
and everything, and so, and itkind of goes into, you know,
like what the fleet's objectiveis and what they're trying to
get out of it too.
If, if you got a fleet that'srunning lots of miles and you
know they they don't really usethe brakes very often or not,
you know very lightly, you knowthey're they might be looking at
(08:37):
just like doing one brakechange, you know for the life of
their vehicle, you know at somepoint, whereas otherets, you
know, you know, the other end ofthe scale is like a transit or,
um, maybe a refuse vehicle thatdoes a lot of stops, you know
every, you know every quartermile or so they're just hitting
the brakes really hard and sothey'll wear a different
temperature, wear at differentrates, they'll wear at different
(08:59):
temperatures.
I always recommend you know,talking to you know distributors
like yourself trying to, youknow, get, you know, get a match
that that they, like you know,there could be.
You know, talking to you know,distributors like yourself
trying to, you know, get, youknow, get a match that they,
like you know, there could be,you know, a good combinations
for sure.
Jamie Irvine (09:10):
So this is one of the reasons why we encourage our
outside salespeople and ourcounter people, our branches, to
work closely with our suppliers, because you have the expertise
on the product, we have theknowledge of the customer's
specific needs and we can bringthat together into a solution.
You said something a moment agothat caught my attention.
(09:30):
You alluded to the fact thatyou rarely get more than you pay
for.
So when somebody puts togethera cheap or low-cost friction,
they have to take something outof the material.
What do they typically take outof the material to bring the
cost down on the frictionmaterial, and what is the result
(09:52):
of taking those things out?
Jay Kay (09:54):
It's usually like in those lubricants and in the
abrasives the size of theabrasive materials some of the
cost is even in you know howpure it is has an effect, and so
you know it's just likeanything the more processing you
do to get you know somethingpure, the cost is going to go up
(10:16):
right.
And so these are some of thetrade-offs that you can do and
you know, in some cases it worksfine.
You know we always, you know,recommend, I think no-transcript
(10:56):
it.
Jamie Irvine (10:56):
If you're in Canada, you have to meet the
minimum braking distances setout in the Canadian motor
vehicle safety standards.
So when a supplier sells brakesto the Canadian market, they
have to meet that standard, justlike they do in the United
States.
And so that means that even ifyou do buy a lower quality or,
(11:16):
let's say, a lower pricedfriction material, your vehicle
will stop in that distance andwill meet that requirement.
But I think you said the keything how long will that break
last?
Right, because that's what endsup happening when you take out
all of this high qualitymaterial, you end up impacting
(11:38):
the performance.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout that.
Jay Kay (11:40):
You can kind of think of it like a chocolate chip
cookie, right.
That you can kind of think ofit like a chocolate chip cookie,
right?
If we both made up a batch ofcookies and if you use a little
bit more baking soda and I use alittle bit more flour, that
formula could be.
It'll be different, right?
The cookie will look different,it'll taste different,
everything will be different.
So what we want to do withfriction material is make sure
(12:02):
the total package including youknow, like the quality and how
how well everything um getsmeasured and then how well it
gets, you know, mixed togetherand then um and it goes into a
like a mold where it's, you know, put in, you got to put it in
at the right amounts and and itgets pressed into the right
(12:23):
shape so we get the rightdensity of the material.
Then it goes from there to gointo a curing oven and you want
to make sure that you know it'scured in the oven, you know, for
the right amount of time and atthe right, at the right
temperature to get a pure cure.
So you know it's kind of acombination of all these things
I'm saying it makes a reallygood quality type of friction
(12:43):
material.
You know from the elements thatwe put in all the way through,
you know, taking it out of theoven and labeling it at the end
of the day as well yeah, soyou're buying a cheap stale
chocolate chip cookie with threechocolate chips in it, or
you're buying some really goodchocolate chunk cookies filled
with all the good stuff, right?
so it's a good.
It's a good illustration.
(13:05):
It'll fall apart on you and ifit's baked just right, so it's a
good illustration.
It'll fall apart on you and ifit's baked just right it'll
taste good and yeah, so.
Jamie Irvine (13:09):
Exactly, yeah, well, chocolate chip cookies are
my favorite cookies.
So I wasn't expecting to talkabout that today.
Okay, so again, just toreiterate this point if you are
trying to save money by buyinglower quality friction that
sacrifices performance when youneed it, it's going to drive up
your total cost.
(13:30):
Later in the episode we aregoing to supply you with a
couple use cases from some ofour customers who experienced
this firsthand.
It increased their purchaseprice a little bit, but it
dramatically decreased theirtotal cost of operation.
So stay with us for that littlebit, but it dramatically
decreased their total cost ofoperation.
So stay with us for that.
Now I want to shift gears alittle bit and talk about a
couple other subjects related tobrakes.
(13:50):
Okay, so to our audience onYouTube.
I want you to put in thecomments right now what
percentage of commercial truckson North American roads have air
disc brakes.
So we're just talking abouttrucks here.
Is it 12 to 15%, 18 to 25%, 26to 30% or is it closer to 50%?
(14:13):
Put it in the comments andwe're going to answer that
question in just a minute.
So let's talk about how brakeswere very consistent for many
decades.
Early in my career it was allS-cam brakes, pretty consistent,
same products.
There was some changes to thefriction material.
There was some changes todesign, but this was slow and
(14:34):
over a number of years.
And then we had theintroduction of air disc brake,
which really promised a lot butadoption of it was very slow.
There's been several iterationsof AirDisc breaks and it seems
to now be catching on.
So tell me a little bit fromyour perspective, like let's
talk about the history ofAirDisc break, and why was it so
(14:56):
slow to come on and for peopleto adopt it and why now is it
becoming more popular?
Jay Kay (15:02):
30 years ago I got hired into it was Rockwell at
the time and I got hired in towork on the new disc breaking
mode because it was coming on.
It was going to be.
You know, take on the.
You know everything in theworld.
I would say the biggest issuewith it is like acquisition cost
.
You know was really slow totake off and that's probably
(15:24):
been one of the bigger driversyou know with delaying the
implementation of it.
We've done a really good jobwith that.
Getting that piece down.
It was another element thatkind of it was hurting.
The disc brake piece was andyou're probably familiar with
this getting service parts outthere.
That problem is I don't thinkit's completely solved, but it's
(15:48):
way, way better than it everhas.
It does bring a niceperformance.
You know, and anybody that'sdriving their passenger car
right now, they're all discbrakes.
They stop very consistently,know, consistently, very evenly.
Disc brakes has kind of helped,you know.
You know, bring that that feelto them where you know like I'm
sure you know, like some peoplethat have driven like even older
(16:11):
drum brakes, right, you gottamake sure you're holding on to
that wheel with both hands andum, you know they do very well.
But you know, in emergencysituations and things like that,
I think you know overall theperformance of a disc brake will
just give a smoother, you know,more consistent um stop yeah,
between amt uh transmissions anddisc brakes, uh, trucks have
(16:32):
come a long way, uh, compared tothose old days, for sure.
Jamie Irvine (16:36):
so let's get to uh , what percentage of commercial
vehicles have S-cam?
What percentage of vehicleshave air disc brakes?
So we asked that question alittle earlier.
What's the answer?
How many trucks and trailers inNorth America are running air
disc brake right now?
Jay Kay (16:50):
Our data has shown we're about 50-50 with disc
brakes and drum brakes.
Okay, on trailers were about 15, uh, one five on disc brakes
for trailers and the remainderdrum brakes on, um, like medium
duty trucks.
Uh, you know that kind of uhcombination were a similar,
(17:13):
about about 15 disc brakes ontrucks.
You know market hasn't quiteseen the big benefits to go
after the disc brakes.
We see a trend to keep going upoverall in disc brakes.
In fact by 2030, we'reprojecting somewhere around 75%.
Jamie Irvine (17:34):
So 50%, that's actually a higher number than I
actually thought originally.
I personally thought it wascloser to like 30%.
So on North American Class 8trucks, we're talking about 50%
now being on air disc brake, andthat's going to grow.
So what did you put in thecomments?
Were you right?
Let me know if you were right.
Thank you so much, Joe, forcoming on and sharing with us
(17:56):
your extensive knowledge.
I really appreciate you beingon the Parts for Trucks podcast.
Jay Kay (18:00):
Yep Anytime I can share it.
I enjoy these kinds of things.
Jamie Irvine (18:05):
What a great interview.
Joe has such a wealth ofexperience and it's this kind of
partnership with our vendorsthat Parts for Trucks is working
really hard to bring you thesubject matter experts who can
talk about the products that arein the market with such a
authority and with so much greatinformation to help us out.
(18:26):
Now our next guest is a Partsfor Trucks legend and in this
discussion we're going to godeep into the financial impact
of what you choose when you'rebuying brakes for your
commercial trucks and trailers.
We're going to talk about howto identify the brakes and give
(18:46):
you almost like a little minimasterclass, and it's really my
pleasure to introduce our nextguest.
Robert Goodwin is the managerof Customer Care Help Desk in
Eastern Canada for Parts forTrucks.
Robert has 53 years ofexperience in heavy-duty parts.
Of that 53 years, he spent thelast 38 years with Parts for
(19:09):
Trucks.
Robert, welcome to the Partsfor Trucks podcast.
Very happy to have you here.
Robert Goodwin (19:16):
Thank you very much, Jamie.
Jamie Irvine (19:17):
I appreciate the invite how much does it cost
when you use cheap breaks thatneed to be changed more
regularly?
So when you think about breaks,people often just look at the
purchase price.
Right, but how much does itactually cost somebody if they
use a cheap break that's notmatched to their vocation or
(19:38):
their application and they endup having to change the brakes
more regularly?
Robert Goodwin (19:47):
From my experience from years past and
up until now, I've seen peoplemake big mistakes, buying the
wrong friction material.
I've seen them have to do brakework over.
That's double double the workand it's double the time and it
gobbles up shop time and it'sjust a bad scene.
Jamie Irvine (20:00):
Yeah.
So let's break it down.
You make a good point.
So first of all you look at thepurchase price of the original
friction material and you seethat invoice.
So your head can kind ofcapture okay, what does that
cost me?
But what so many people fail tothink about to your point is if
I have to change this frictionmaterial again in, let's say,
(20:22):
six or eight months, what doesthat cost me?
But what so many people fail tothink about to your point is if
I have to change this frictionmaterial again in, let's say,
six or eight months.
So you've got labor, you've gothaving to purchase more product
, but what about downtime?
Robert Goodwin (20:35):
How expensive is that to a fleet?
Well, that can be huge.
It depends on how dedicated theunit is.
You can't go to Ryder and rentjust whatever you want.
If it's a refuse truck, whatare you going to do?
You're down until the wheelsare moving again.
So it's very important to tryto pick the right product for
the job.
The first time, if you can doit and that's what we're here
for is to try to help peopleguide them through and around
(20:58):
some of the potholes that aremade off.
And you are right, jamie.
Very often friction material ispicked based on price.
What's the flyer price fromcompetitor A?
Can you meet it?
Is it the same?
And a lot of the mistake ismade that if it's 20,000-pound
rated brake lining, well,they're all the same.
If it's 23,000 pound rate atbreaklining, that segment is all
(21:22):
the same.
But it couldn't be further fromthe truth.
It's very important to pick theright material for the
application.
Jamie Irvine (21:29):
And that's where it really stops right there.
It's absolutely true.
So let's talk about the otherside of that coin.
What happens to your total costof operation?
Because really that's whatwe're talking about.
We're talking about shiftingfrom looking at our purchase
price to looking at our totalcost of operation.
So what happens to our totalcost of operation when we do the
following One, we invest in ahigh quality friction material
(21:53):
and, two, we match that up toour vocation so that it lasts
longer we match that up to ourvocation so that it lasts longer
.
Robert Goodwin (22:04):
Well, it's going to certainly keep the unit out
of the shop and that allows theshop all the time in the world
to do other things.
And the shop is cleaner.
There is no question about it,and that goes along with
occupation, health and safetyand the mechanics and the techs
that work around and shop labor.
They're happier, and theturnover amongst that staff.
It just improves everything foreverybody Less turnover,
(22:25):
happier staff, cleaner shop andthe work gets done better.
When you're in a well-lit,clean shop, safety rises and the
quality of the work comes rightalong with it.
So that just throws the truckon the road for way more
kilometers.
And when you start looking atshop maintenance you can't beat
that.
To utilize all the timepossible to do all that you can
(22:48):
without going out and buying anylabor if it's necessary.
It's huge and sometimes it'sonly found by trial and error
and a few mistakes, and we'vehelped people over the years
eliminate some of those mistakes.
Jamie Irvine (23:00):
Yeah, and I have seen what you are talking about,
which is there is a alignmentbetween moving off of a purchase
price mindset to a total costof operation mindset.
When you do that at the fleetlevel, there's a connection
between making that shift in howyou approach purchasing and,
(23:22):
for example, buying brakes andall these other aspects of
operating a efficient fleet,operating an efficient shop.
That correlation is definitelythere and that has been proven
time and time again from fleetsall over the country, proven
time and time again from fleetsall over the country.
We're really talking to ourcounter people now, as well as
(23:43):
our people in sales.
They're discussing frictionmaterial with our customers on a
daily basis.
Can you walk us through how ourpeople on the counter, our
outside salespeople, should helpa customer to specify the right
friction material for theirvocation or application?
Walk us through that process.
Robert Goodwin (24:03):
Well, you kind of have to divide the question
into two.
Number one do we know thecustomer?
Do we know the fleet?
How well do we know the fleet?
What have been the pitfalls inthe past and what can be
corrected through getting thecorrect friction material?
And the other side is thatperson that comes in for the
first time.
He has his old cores with himand he's just looking to buy
(24:26):
some brakes and get out the door, and we don't know much about
him or his fleet.
So, knowing the fleet operationlike is it a low-bed fleet?
We may approach a12-and-a-quarter inch brake
quite different than a 16 and ahalf inch brake.
So that is one thing.
And then, whether is it atritum, is it a tandem fleet, is
it a tritum fleet or is it aquad fleet?
(24:48):
And the more axles there are,the more they have to work the
same and be in unison.
So we have to be careful andpick a piece of brake lining
that's tolerant of some of theseinconsistencies.
Is the fleet a tractor-operatedfleet or are they leasehold
tractor operation that canaffect the operation of the
(25:09):
brakes on the trailer orwhichever, immensely?
Sometimes there's a costthreshold.
When you go to buy milk in agrocery store, you think about
how much it is.
You sort of go, wow, that'sgone up in price.
You pass the threshold, thatlittle moment that's there.
Don't get caught by that.
Sometimes we really have to findthe right product to go, the
(25:33):
right cost per mile.
And then does the fleet havehigh horsepower engines?
You give a driver horsepower,they're going to use it.
We better give him good brakehorsepower because he's going to
use it too.
It just goes hand in hand.
And then we have to have just alittle bit of understanding of
(25:56):
what season we're going into.
You get into some of the moresouthern parts of the provinces
here in Canada and understandingthat trucks are going to run US
.
There's a lot of gear that runsFlorida, california.
What kind of heat are theygoing to get into?
So we got to manage that heat,remember.
So all of this kind of comesinto play and it can be very
(26:20):
stressful for a counter personto show he knows what he's
talking, what are she, and getthese questions in their mind
figured out before they approachthe price and the product
that's going to be sold to thecustomer.
Jamie Irvine (26:33):
so there's a lot to it, jamie robert, you did a
great job of summarizing variousways that we need to think
about the customer, their needs,and you brought up so many good
points.
I think that it's just importantfor all of our people on the
counter, in sales, when they aretalking to our customers, to
(26:53):
have that conversation.
Sometimes, when time is of theessence and they just need parts
and in and out, you don't thinkthat's not necessarily the time
to have that completeconversation, but you need to
get to know your customers, needto have these conversations on
a regular basis with themBecause, at the end of the day,
the more education we can bring,the more we can help them to
(27:15):
make good decisions when itcomes to things like friction
material, the more that trustbetween us and the customer is
developed.
And if you're listening rightnow and you are one of our
customers, we want you tounderstand that we really care
about giving you not just theproduct that you ask for,
necessarily, but the productthat you actually need, because
we want you to be successful.
(27:36):
The more successful you are,the more successful, ultimately,
we are, and it really helps usto fulfill our mission to
support the trucking industry.
Okay, so can you go through thebasics of how to identify our
SCAM brakes.
Walk us through the processthat you go through when you're
teaching people how to do this.
Robert Goodwin (27:56):
Okay, jamie, if we were to look at drive axle
brakes, 16 and a half by sevenas a standard size, just to keep
it simple for the sake of thepodcast here, in the dual anchor
pin style brake that Meritor orRockwell in the early days was
known as, came into being.
(28:16):
In the early days it was twoanchor pins or one, sir, that
was the question.
And if it was one, we knew ithad to be an Eaton brake, which
I'll get into in a second.
But if it was two anchor pinsthat held these shoes in place
inside that wheel envelope, ithad to be a Meritor brake.
So in the early days it wasthree quarter inch thick block,
(28:37):
piece of cake.
Along comes design change andthey decide to make this Q plus
break.
How are we going todifferentiate it?
Well, we're going to take thehump that was in the web of the
Q shoe, the three quarter inchthick block.
We're going to take it away.
So there'll be no hump.
If that is gone, it's going tobe a Q plus break which has
(29:00):
seven, eight inch thick blockand for the short time it got
mixed up, like you wouldn'tbelieve.
So it becomes very confusing.
So the second way to check.
It is the spacing between therivet holes at either end of
that brake shoe because theyhave a friction material
standards Institute have astandard for all these drill
(29:21):
holes.
So the spacing on a Q plusbreak will be wider between the
rivet holes than a standard 45,15, three quarter block.
So that's a way to check it.
The other way is take a look atthe S cam, the S cam head, and
if it's an inch andthree-eighths across the neck of
(29:42):
the cam it's the old Q stylebrake.
Do not try to put a Q plus on.
If it's one and one-eighth inchyou can put both a Q and a Q
plus on.
But you just have to rotate thecam shaft just that little more
so that the rise of the S's ona Q plus cam are longer than on
a Q plus on.
But you just have to rotate thecamshaft just that little more
so that the rise of the S's on aQ plus camera longer than on a
(30:03):
Q by its machining.
So that kind of tucks, theRockwell or the Meritor brake
and all the other brands thatrun on that same platform, which
could be Hendrickson, theBendix, spicer style dual anchor
pin brakes, are all on thatsame dimensional characteristic
(30:24):
of that dual anchor pin.
When we go over to the Eatonbrake, which utilizes a big
single anchor pin, the shoe sitson either side of that one big
pin.
Either side of that one big pin.
It's easier.
The webbing on the old style orthe early 4311, or the early
(30:45):
style Eaton brake had a web thatwas not straight from the
anchor pin to the roller.
It came in narrower towards theroller and the rollers were two
piece.
So if you had an Eaton brakethat had that design with a
two-piece roller, you had to putthat Eaton standard 4311 brake
(31:06):
back on.
When the ES2 come along, theywent to a one-piece roller and
went to a 7.8 thick blockthemselves, went to a 7-8 thick
block themselves and that brakeshoe, brand spanking new out of
the box, is a non-tapered brakeblock.
The cam and the anchor end lookthe same.
(31:26):
In fact they're easily mixed upin a remand shop.
If you're not careful it'sbecause the taper's built into
the shoe.
So that allows you to get the7-8 thick block in where you
took the old 3-quarter inch oneoff.
But the same camshaft rulesapply.
If it's 1-3-8 across the neckyou have to put a 45-15 back on
(31:47):
or the old standard Eaton style.
If you convert that over to aninch and an eighth camshaft you
can convert it to either an ES-1or an ES ES2.
And that presents anotherlittle differentiation.
The early conversion to an ESstyle or 7-8 thick block for an
Eaton had tabs on the end of theshoe table.
(32:08):
The ES2 had the return springholes or the anchor pin.
Retainer holes were a part ofthe actual shoe table.
The table was just a littlelonger to allow them to have the
holes there.
But either way a much greaterimprovement in brake life when
we found that extra littleone-eighth of an inch.
(32:30):
That one-eighth of an inch hadso many more miles.
So it's obviously very wise toget that on whenever it's
possible.
Jamie Irvine (32:39):
The reason I ask you that question is because I
just wanted people to get asense of how much goes into
proper identification offriction material.
And we just talked about our 16and a half by seven brakes.
We didn't talk about a drive orsteer axle.
We didn't talk about otherdimensions.
So it's very important for youto understand these different
(32:59):
characteristics of the brakesand to learn how to identify
them, how to take propermeasurements, how to both
visually but then to doublecheck that your initial visual
identification is actuallyaccurate and it's going to meet
the needs of the customer.
Now, when we shift to air discbrake, it's a completely
(33:20):
different scenario.
So could you give us some bestpractices for helping parts
people identify air disc brakes?
Robert Goodwin (33:28):
Well, the first is a visual.
If you were to stand at theback of the trailer if it's a
trailer or even a truck you'llnotice that the brake chambers
are fast and perpendicular tothe wheel.
Once you get the wheels off,they kind of look all the same.
So careful identification ofthe caliper is probably one of
(33:49):
the quicker ways.
Bendix is very good aboutidentifying their caliper.
In fact, on NorthAmerican-built trailers that
have Bendix air disc brakes on,it's either an ADB22 or, in
recent years, adb22lts.
But some other manufacturerswill use other versions of that
(34:11):
Norbrems or Bendix as we knowthem in North America caliper,
and could use an ST7 or an SK7caliper, as SAF Holland has done
.
Those two calipers will havetags, a blue tag or a green tag,
and each one will say whichstyle that it is.
And SAF Holland have a very,very good wall chart that we can
(34:34):
provide anybody that would liketo have one that, almost model
by model, as they havetransitioned through design
changes into different spindleconfigurations and other things
that they've tried to makeimprovements on, it'll take you
right through it.
It's probably one of the moreconfusing ones.
(34:56):
Believe me, jamie, this is oneof the biggest challenges we
have as a parts distributoraftermarket parts distributor is
to identify air dish brakedesigns, because there are so
many trailer builders that maybein one model year they lean
towards Haldex or SAF Hollandand then the first thing you
(35:18):
know, there's a wobco underwhatever this wheel is.
It can be really, really tricky.
You really got to pull that padoff.
The pad will tell us exactlywhat is on that unit for air to
spray.
Jamie Irvine (35:32):
When I was learning the parts business and
we were focused more on theS-cam style brakes.
When we were identifying drumsyou were looking at the bolt
hole pattern, the number ofstuds, and we would take
measurements and then we had ourcharts and we could compare
them.
Is there something similar forthe actual disc in the air disc
(35:52):
brake system?
Robert Goodwin (35:54):
Yes, there is.
But air dish brakes are a wholedifferent animal.
The hub has to be pulled inevery case to change the rotor.
There is a hat style, there's aflat style, there's a spline
style to these rotors anddepending on the brand of the
(36:14):
air dish brake system, they willemploy one or another or
whatever.
There is no rule of thumbreally.
That is reliable.
He didn't know what he's intountil that trailer's in and the
wheels are off.
Oh my God, what's in it?
What's this?
Where am I going to go for this?
So it's in our best interest tobe right up on the right
(36:39):
questions to ask is a hat styleis a fine style?
How many studs are there?
Is there a number on the hub?
That steel or aluminum hubshould have a number on it.
That usually is designed tomarry up only with a certain
style rotor.
So if we can find one or theother we can get the guy going.
(37:00):
We keep a wide variety of airto spray components, especially
hubs and rotors.
Jamie Irvine (37:07):
Robert, thank you so much for going through that
in such detail.
I really appreciate it.
I'd like to shift theconversation now back to that
conversation that we had earlierwhere we were talking about
resisting the urge to look atjust purchase price to really
invest in high quality frictionmaterial that is going to lower
(37:29):
your total cost of operation.
Could you share with me anexample of a customer that we
had who overcame the urge to buycheap brakes, made the
investment, and what was thesituation and what ended up
happening?
Robert Goodwin (37:44):
So we get a call from an outside salesman, have
this fleet that began buyingbrakes from us by the skid, and
here in Atlantic Canada ithappens, but it's more unusual
than eight or ten boxes ofbrakes at a time, Whole skid.
Wow, what's going on?
And then it shifts from wow,I'm spending a lot of money.
(38:08):
I got to try to get the costdown on all this product.
And then the question comesthrough you've got to have
something cheaper.
Well, we take the box out ofthe picture, we take the
hardware kit out to make theprice look better.
It does, but you're not gettinga hardware kit, you need it.
And after a while we got to aspot where there's no more room
(38:30):
to go.
There's no more cost savings tobe had.
Finally, the outside salesmanfor this customer said when you
come?
When can you come visit with meto visit this customer?
He's going through breaks on apretty regular basis.
Got to help him.
So we sit down with thecustomer.
The first thing comes up you'vegot to lower my cost per mile.
(38:52):
I said okay, we need to talkabout you buying a more
expensive, higher quality brake.
And he just sat back in hischair.
What makes you think I'm goingto go for that.
I'm already spending too much.
So we went through the processof talking about cost per mile.
Produce this little form.
We talk about it with thecustomer.
(39:13):
And I said to the customer it'sgoing to be a year's worth of
commitment.
Your fleet is large enough.
We're going to have to gothrough all your trucks and all
your trailers and upgrade themto this better product.
If you've got the stomach forthat in your budget, you're
gonna be the winner.
Well, fast forward, a year goesand actually it was like 14
(39:36):
months go by.
We have another meeting and allalong we had phone
conversations how we doinglittle updates and all this and
that we sit down and he said tome he said the saving in that
particular fleet of about 50tractors and 90 odd trailers was
in almost $100,000.
(39:58):
And it was a big enough number.
They didn't believe it, but itwas.
By investing 8% and 10% more inthat brake job he saved all
that money.
So the proof is in the pudding,jamie, but you have to have the
stomach to see it through.
There is better product outthere and it will do what we say
(40:19):
it will do.
Jamie Irvine (40:20):
Robert, thank you so much for being on the podcast
.
Robert Goodwin is our managerof Customer Care Help Desk in
Eastern Canada.
He has 53 years' in heavy dutyparts and we were so glad to
have you on the podcast where wecould get a little bit of that
experience from you.
Thanks, Robert.
Robert Goodwin (40:37):
Thank you very much, Jamie, for the invitation.
Really enjoyed the opportunity.
Jamie Irvine (40:41):
Thank you.
I told you Robert was a legend.
He didn't disappoint.
You can really hear his yearsof experience when he's talking
about the subject of brakes.
Now, it's one thing to selectthe correct brake parts for your
application and making a goodpurchase decision.
It's another to make sure thatthe service work on your vehicle
(41:02):
, especially when it comes toyour brakes, is done correctly.
And this episode wouldn't becomplete without a discussion
about the fundamentals of bothinspecting and repairing your
brakes.
To help us with that, I haveinvited Phil Hutton, service
manager in our Dartmouthlocation, to the podcast to talk
to us about the service side ofbrakes.
(41:25):
Phil, welcome to the podcast.
Phil Hutton (41:27):
Hi, jamie, nice to be here.
Jamie Irvine (41:29):
Glad to have you here And've been talking about
brakes in this episode, and Iwanted to conclude this episode
with a discussion about justexactly what's involved, to kind
of give people an idea.
Maybe drivers or parts peoplethey're involved in the process
but they don't really know whatthe technicians do to make sure
that brakes are inspectedcorrectly and make sure that
(41:50):
when they do that inspection,you know we're able to catch
things before they become aproblem.
So let's go through the stepstogether.
What is the first step that atechnician should do when
preparing to do a brakeinspection?
Phil Hutton (42:07):
Well, firstly, jamie, obviously we've got to
talk about the safety aspects.
We've got to make sure that thetruck is in the right position,
secured with wheel chocks andall the usual safety stuff.
If we're going to be liftingthe truck up, we've got to make
sure that the jacks and the axlestands are the right rating and
that everything is correct.
Let's just get that one out ofthe way because obviously it's
(42:29):
paramount to us.
You know safety.
So firstly, with a brake check,you know we want to look in
generally from outside.
We want to look at all thecomponents are in the right
place, you know the brakechambers where they should be,
and securely fastened, you know.
So we're just looking atgeneral security to start with
before we start getting into thenitty-gritty of it.
(42:49):
So that's what generally we'relooking at Wheels are in place,
nuts, that sort of thing,because all these are going to
have a factor on the brakingsystem as a whole in general, so
what I'm hearing is properpreparation prevents poor
performance, exactly Right, okay.
Jamie Irvine (43:05):
So from the safety perspective, when we have the
vehicle safely secured, we'reconfident now that we can move
forward.
Is there anything on thetooling side that usually you
like to get ready ahead of timeor you like to have your
technicians prepare?
Walk me through just what theydo there and what is the first
step of the inspection what isthe first step of the inspection
(43:28):
In a wheel-off inspection?
Phil Hutton (43:29):
obviously we're going to be having the wheels
off.
They're going to need a wheelgun, sockets and all that stuff.
Probably a hammer Tape measureis going to be key in this
situation.
Nothing too technical regardstooling, but those are some of
the few things that will beneeded as we move through this.
Jamie Irvine (43:47):
Okay, so now I've got the safety, I've got my
tools ready.
Let's get into the actualinspection.
Talk to me about that initialvisual inspection.
What is the technician lookingfor?
Phil Hutton (43:59):
Again, we're looking.
Obviously we're looking forobvious signs of breakage.
You know brake linings that areeither cracked, broken or
missing.
You know bent steel work Thingsare in the right place.
Springs there's two or threesprings involved inside the
brakes, making sure thateverything is in place and where
(44:21):
it should be.
You know rollers there's anchorpins, rollers there's various
items that need to be in place.
We're going to look at thingslike are we lubricated properly?
You know the generalization.
We're going to look at thingslike are the chambers correct?
From one side to the other,things happen in the field.
(44:41):
Things get changed becausethere isn't one available and
they need to get out of a tightspot.
So we've got to make sure thatchambers are correct.
Slack adjusters are the samefrom side to side, because it's
good practice to have the sameitems and makes and models on
the same vehicle.
So those are the sorts of thingsthat we're going to as we start
(45:02):
getting deeper into it.
Those are the key points thatwe need to take care of before
we move further.
Jamie Irvine (45:08):
Yeah, it's a good point about things being the
same both sides of the axle.
You're absolutely right, thosethings do happen.
So let's just go on anassumption here that we haven't
found anything obviously broken,but we still need to assess
whether or not a brake job isneeded.
(45:30):
So these are wear items.
So walk me through the processof establishing okay, do I need
to change the drums?
Do I need to change thefriction material?
How do we get there?
Phil Hutton (45:41):
There's a fair bit of measuring there is, you know,
from the linings there is acertain thickness requirement
that's needed.
Good signs From the liningsthere is a certain thickness
requirement.
That's needed.
Good signs.
On a larger truck we haverivets.
Obviously if they're protrudingor wearing then we're obviously
needed changing things.
But there are other shoesavailable where they're bonded,
so rivets are not clear.
So there are minimumrequirements for certain shoe
(46:15):
thicknesses and linings thathave to be met for MVI or safety
standards.
Drums likewise.
They come at a certain size andthey have to meet those
requirements.
So on a 16.5-inch drum, as anexample, although they can
change, you're allowed 120,000oversize.
So that goes from 16.5 to16.620.
Those are your maximum figuresor you've got to fall in between
(46:39):
those.
So those are the nuts and boltsof brakes, so to speak, the
shoes and the drums.
There's a lot more surroundingthem.
You know when you're measuringthings.
You know a big complaint of alot of customers is, you know,
they got 300,000 out of theirfirst brake job and the next
brake job only lasted 150,000 or200,000.
(47:01):
Why is that?
You know, they think we sellsubstandard parts or a lot of
those loads, substandard partsor those lines.
What they've got to realize ifthey're changing their own parts
, they have to make sure thatcamshaft, bushings, all the
things, fall within spec,because any wear on these is
going to add extra wear furtherdown the line, you know.
So spending a little bit ofmoney bringing those cams back
(47:24):
up to specifications would payoff dividends down the line in
longevity of the job that you'redoing.
Jamie Irvine (47:32):
In addition to all of the foundation brake
components, what about thegeneral air brake system that
this is all connected to?
What do you do there to makesure that you're not missing
anything?
Phil Hutton (47:45):
So, specifically, you know the technicians
bringing it in and and I wouldadvise that any technician does
this you know it's a brakeproblem.
Well, let's get back to thething that's activating and
that's doing that the air system, right.
So when we're checking brakesand you're doing adjustments, so
to speak, you know, make sure,when we're checking stroke
length, that that has to bebetween 90 and 100 psi.
(48:07):
Firstly, can the truck achievethat?
You know you're going to makesure that it can get up to the
air pressure required.
You also want to check thatwe're not leaking.
So, putting your foot on thebrake, building up to pressure
first, let's stop two minutes.
Does that pressure drop?
Put your foot on the brake,same procedure again.
Do we get any pressure droppage?
You know you don't want to seemuch more than five PSI drop
(48:30):
over those two items whereyou're just checking.
That means you know your airsystem is in good standing and
you know you make a reasonableassumption that you can move
forward with the rest of therepair.
Jamie Irvine (48:41):
Yeah.
So now you've done all of thiswork, you've replaced the
necessary parts, you're puttingit all back together again.
When we're at that point, whatdo we have to think about in
terms of making sure the brakesare properly adjusted and
functionally testing them tomake sure that everything is
good?
Phil Hutton (48:59):
We're going to.
We're going to check the brokebrake stroke now.
So we're going to adjust theslack adjusters and we're going
to check for free play first.
So we adjust the slackadjusters and we're going to
check for free play first.
So we adjust the slack adjusterto where we think it should be
and then we're going to checkfree play, that's the distance
between the brake shoe and thedrum before it makes contact.
How we do that as a technician,we'll take a lever and pry on
(49:24):
that slack adjuster and we'relooking for a measurement
between somewhere around 5-8 to7-8 of an inch.
And how we measure that is fromthe base of the chamber to
normally, the center pin of theslack adjuster, the clevis pin.
So that's the free play you'rekind of looking for.
Remember, that is just aguideline at this stage.
(49:47):
You know what I mean.
Next, what you'll have to do ismaking sure the air is up to
pressure, apply the brakes witha, you know, between a 90 and
100 psi air pressure.
This should give you a fullbrake stroke application.
And again, you have to measurethe brake strokes.
Now, depending on the chambers,the position of the chambers,
(50:09):
the size of the chambers, thatstroke does change, um, so I'm
not going to tell you.
You know it's going to be a, aninch and a half or two inches
or whatever it is, but there isspecifications out there.
So whether you've got somebodyto help you, you know, press the
brake, brake, the brake pedal,or you've got something that
enables you to do that, um, sothat's where you go from.
(50:29):
Also, what I would check and nota lot of people do.
Again, those things are changedout in the field.
Were they done correctly?
Checking brake geometry is isimportant as well.
You know, when the brakes arefully, uh, you know depressed,
and you've got a full brakestroke application, the push rod
of the chamber and the slackadjuster should be at 90 degrees
(50:51):
.
This will give you your maximum, you know, uh, force available
to you.
You know what I mean.
Not a lot of that is checkedvery often, you know.
We make a lot of assumptions,you know.
Jamie Irvine (51:00):
So that's important to check that too so,
as you can tell, there's quite abit to this.
Now the brake job.
Brake job is done to the partsfor trucks standard and we're
ready now to give the vehicleback to our customer.
What can they expect in the wayof documentation?
What do we do internally tomake sure that we've done things
correctly?
(51:21):
What do we communicate to thecustomer?
Phil Hutton (51:33):
Normally within the work order we will explain what
we do and explaining that thevehicle is now within
specification to the OEMstandards and we also internally
monitor those and log thosemeasurements for future
reference and any issues,obviously that do happen in the
future.
We also make recommendationsfor the customer of any other
repairs that may be needed oralong the lines of you know,
future problems that might occurfor those guys and hopefully we
(51:55):
give the customers as muchinformation as we can to keep
them happy.
Jamie Irvine (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, phil, thank you so muchfor walking us through this
process.
It gives people insight intowhat is involved.
It's one thing to buy the rightparts.
It's another thing to also havethem installed correctly and
have it all come together with avehicle that keeps cost of
operation down and operatessafely.
Safety is a big concern foreveryone involved.
(52:23):
If you'd like to have one ofour many service centers across
the country work on one of yourvehicles, head over to
partsfortruckscom forward slashservice and you'll be able to
get in contact with one of ourservice managers and go from
there.
Phil, thank you so much fortaking time.
I know you're busy in the shop.
Really appreciate you being onthe podcast.
Phil Hutton (52:42):
No problem, Thanks.
Jamie Irvine (52:43):
Jamie.
These three interviews havebeen just packed with great
information.
The years of experience ofthese three individuals really
shone through and it was a realprivilege to be able to put this
together for you.
You've been listening to theParts for Trucks podcast.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin.
In this episode we got thismasterclass in brakes, but we're
(53:06):
going to cover a lot more onthe podcast than just breaks.
So if you like the content thatyou're hearing, head over to
partsfortruckscom slash podcastor go to wherever you get your
podcasts.
Make sure you follow the showfor free so you don't miss out
on any of the upcoming deepdives that we're going to do on
everything related to heavy dutyparts service.
(53:27):
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of the Parts for Trucks
podcast and, as always, I wantto thank you for being heavy
duty.
And he said to me.
He said the saving in thatparticular fleet of about 50
tractors and 90 odd trailers wasin almost $100,000.
By investing 8 and 10% more inthat brake job he saved all that
money that money.
Jamie Irvine (00:23):
In each episode of the Parts for Trucks podcast,
you will walk away with tools,strategies and knowledge to make
your job easier, cut costs andelevate your performance in the
heavy-duty trucking industry.
In this episode, we are goingto talk about the only thing
stopping 80,000 pounds fromcrashing into you and your
(00:46):
family.
That's right, we're talkingabout brakes on commercial
trucks and trailers.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Welcome to the Parts for Trucks podcast, where we
explore the latest trends,technologies and strategies in
the heavy-duty trucking industry.
Each episode you'll hear fromindustry experts to help keep
your trucks on the road and yourbusiness thriving.
Now let's get into gear.
Here's your host, jamie Urban.
Jamie Irvine (01:18):
Now let me give you a little background on the
subject of brakes as it relatesto commercial vehicles here in
Canada.
According to Transport Canada,there are approximately 3
million commercial vehicles onthe road.
Of those 3 million, 553,905 ofthem are in the class 7 and 8
(01:41):
category, meaning they weigh11,794 kilograms or more, and
this is according to the mostup-to-date statistics that we
have, which brings us up to 2023.
So those numbers get us intothe ballpark of what the
condition is today on ourCanadian roads.
(02:02):
Today on our Canadian roads,brake Safety Week will be
conducted this year betweenAugust 24th and 30th 2025.
Last year, the CVSA, those1,926 inspections 243 of those
(02:29):
inspections led to brake-relatedout-of-service violations.
That means that 12.6% of theinspections done here in Canada
ended with a brake-relatedout-of-service violation.
So there's obviously room forimprovement.
I'm sure you've got somequestions about brakes.
(02:50):
I've got some questions aboutbrakes.
Things that I want to know arewhat's the best brakes for
trucks that are going to be inthe Canadian market, that are
going to travel on Canadianroads, dealing with the kind of
unique Canadian conditions thatwe often experience?
Another question is how do youfigure out what the break you
(03:11):
just chose for your commercialtruck or trailer is going to
cost you in total, not just thepurchase price but the total
cost.
And what's happening when itcomes to the types of brakes
that we're seeing on commercialtrucks and trailers?
The S-cam, or foundation brakeshave been very consistent for
many decades, but we also haveseen the emergence of air disc
(03:35):
brake technology, which isadvancing quite rapidly.
So what's the story there?
It's these kinds of questionsthat we're going to answer in
today's episode, which leads meto our first guest.
Our first guest is Joe Kay.
It's these kinds of questionsthat we're going to answer in
today's episode which leads meto our first guest.
Our first guest is Joe Kay.
He's the director of brakeengineering North America for
Cummins Meritor.
Now Joe has been with the brakeengineering team for 30 years.
(03:58):
Joe started when the companywas Rockwell International.
He has been with the companythrough several changes when
they became Meritor and nowthey're part of Cummins.
He has expertise in everythingrelated to both foundation
brakes and air disc brakes andall of the components, and as
the director of brakeengineering, he works with both
(04:20):
the original equipment andaftermarket team.
So this is someone who we canreally really benefit from his
knowledge.
Joe, welcome to the Parts forTrucks podcast.
Jay Kay (04:35):
So glad to have you here.
Yeah, thanks a lot.
I'm kind of excited to do this.
I always like to share some ofmy knowledge that I've gained
over the last 30 years in brakesystems, so hopefully we can get
some good answers for you today.
Jamie Irvine (04:44):
Well, and brakes are kind of important, right?
Because when you're talkingabout stopping 80,000 pounds
from smashing into you and yourfamily or careening off one of
our highways, brakes are kind ofimportant.
So let me ask you something.
If you're operating acommercial truck and trailer
trailer with air brakes whattypically are the top one or two
(05:05):
problems involved in makingsure that you are getting the
best performance out of yourbrakes and that everything is
going well?
Jay Kay (05:15):
We always recommend do your service intervals, make
sure operators are going aroundlooking at your vehicle.
Just from your CDL operationlicense.
We always recommend that, andso brake health is a big piece
of it as far as, when it comesdown to, you know like what kind
of things you know aretypically seen happening.
You know your brake pad lifeand drum or rotor life,
(05:39):
depending if you're running discor drum, but that's usually
some of the bigger things thatyou know there happen.
You know brakes they use whatwe call a wearable friction
material.
You know so.
You know we haven't come upwith anything, you know, earth
shattering or magical, so youknow the brake pads will still
wear.
You know there's a energyexchange that we want to make
sure happens correctly in orderfor that vehicle to stop.
(06:02):
You know, in the distance thatit needs to.
You know so.
Then the other thing is likeyour drum or your rotor, making
sure that that's, you know, veryfunctional, in good shape, no
cracks, no missing pieces,things like that.
And these are some of the basicthings that the Department of
Transportation will look at.
You know, if they're stoppingyour vehicle and taking a look
at it too, they kind of startwith those pieces Then they'll.
(06:24):
Then they'll kind of go throughthe brake system and you know,
make sure the slack adjuster ifyou have a drum brake it's
really easy to check to see ifyour your brake is functioning.
They'll have you apply thebrake and you know like if your
your brake stroke is too longmay indicate that you got a
slack adjuster issue and you'dhave to change that component.
Jamie Irvine (06:43):
Well, that brings me to selecting the right
friction material for yourvocation and making sure that
you're matching up the frictionmaterial that you're buying, the
components that you're buying,matching that up to the actual
needs of the environment thatyou're operating in.
It's a little more complex thanI think a lot of people realize
(07:05):
and certainly when we get achance to talk to people with
your level of experience, it'spretty quickly we can understand
why this is such a complexanswer and obviously it's
important for distributors likeus to be able to have this
information to guide ourcustomers to make good decisions
when we're recommending yourproducts as the manufacturer.
(07:25):
So let me ask you let's startright at the beginning 101, how
does friction material actuallywork?
Jay Kay (07:33):
In order to retard the vehicle or stop the vehicle, we
have to apply a very large forceto the brake shoe or the brake
pad and then that brake pad rubsup against the drum or the
rotor.
That interaction causesfriction.
It causes heat, you know, andthat heat is what we call.
It's a thermal exchange.
(07:53):
That's how the energy exchangehappens.
You probably heard it, you know, kind of at high levels.
But the function of that brakefriction material is to do just
that it.
It's to rub against the drumand, you know, create that
energy exchange.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent elements that actually
get used in friction materialsand you know kind of a theory
(08:14):
you get what you pay for, right,you know, with all materials
and everything, and so, and itkind of goes into, you know,
like what the fleet's objectiveis and what they're trying to
get out of it too.
If, if you got a fleet that'srunning lots of miles and you
know they they don't really usethe brakes very often or not,
you know very lightly, you knowthey're they might be looking at
(08:37):
just like doing one brakechange, you know for the life of
their vehicle, you know at somepoint, whereas otherets, you
know, you know, the other end ofthe scale is like a transit or,
um, maybe a refuse vehicle thatdoes a lot of stops, you know
every, you know every quartermile or so they're just hitting
the brakes really hard and sothey'll wear a different
temperature, wear at differentrates, they'll wear at different
(08:59):
temperatures.
I always recommend you know,talking to you know distributors
like yourself trying to, youknow, get, you know, get a match
that that they, like you know,there could be.
You know, talking to you know,distributors like yourself
trying to, you know, get, youknow, get a match that they,
like you know, there could be,you know, a good combinations
for sure.
Jamie Irvine (09:10):
So this is one of the reasons why we encourage our
outside salespeople and ourcounter people, our branches, to
work closely with our suppliers, because you have the expertise
on the product, we have theknowledge of the customer's
specific needs and we can bringthat together into a solution.
You said something a moment agothat caught my attention.
(09:30):
You alluded to the fact thatyou rarely get more than you pay
for.
So when somebody puts togethera cheap or low-cost friction,
they have to take something outof the material.
What do they typically take outof the material to bring the
cost down on the frictionmaterial, and what is the result
(09:52):
of taking those things out?
Jay Kay (09:54):
It's usually like in those lubricants and in the
abrasives the size of theabrasive materials some of the
cost is even in you know howpure it is has an effect, and so
you know it's just likeanything the more processing you
do to get you know somethingpure, the cost is going to go up
(10:16):
right.
And so these are some of thetrade-offs that you can do and
you know, in some cases it worksfine.
You know we always, you know,recommend, I think no-transcript
(10:56):
it.
Jamie Irvine (10:56):
If you're in Canada, you have to meet the
minimum braking distances setout in the Canadian motor
vehicle safety standards.
So when a supplier sells brakesto the Canadian market, they
have to meet that standard, justlike they do in the United
States.
And so that means that even ifyou do buy a lower quality or,
(11:16):
let's say, a lower pricedfriction material, your vehicle
will stop in that distance andwill meet that requirement.
But I think you said the keything how long will that break
last?
Right, because that's what endsup happening when you take out
all of this high qualitymaterial, you end up impacting
(11:38):
the performance.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout that.
Jay Kay (11:40):
You can kind of think of it like a chocolate chip
cookie, right.
That you can kind of think ofit like a chocolate chip cookie,
right?
If we both made up a batch ofcookies and if you use a little
bit more baking soda and I use alittle bit more flour, that
formula could be.
It'll be different, right?
The cookie will look different,it'll taste different,
everything will be different.
So what we want to do withfriction material is make sure
(12:02):
the total package including youknow, like the quality and how
how well everything um getsmeasured and then how well it
gets, you know, mixed togetherand then um and it goes into a
like a mold where it's, you know, put in, you got to put it in
at the right amounts and and itgets pressed into the right
(12:23):
shape so we get the rightdensity of the material.
Then it goes from there to gointo a curing oven and you want
to make sure that you know it'scured in the oven, you know, for
the right amount of time and atthe right, at the right
temperature to get a pure cure.
So you know it's kind of acombination of all these things
I'm saying it makes a reallygood quality type of friction
(12:43):
material.
You know from the elements thatwe put in all the way through,
you know, taking it out of theoven and labeling it at the end
of the day as well yeah, soyou're buying a cheap stale
chocolate chip cookie with threechocolate chips in it, or
you're buying some really goodchocolate chunk cookies filled
with all the good stuff, right?
so it's a good.
It's a good illustration.
(13:05):
It'll fall apart on you and ifit's baked just right, so it's a
good illustration.
It'll fall apart on you and ifit's baked just right it'll
taste good and yeah, so.
Jamie Irvine (13:09):
Exactly, yeah, well, chocolate chip cookies are
my favorite cookies.
So I wasn't expecting to talkabout that today.
Okay, so again, just toreiterate this point if you are
trying to save money by buyinglower quality friction that
sacrifices performance when youneed it, it's going to drive up
your total cost.
(13:30):
Later in the episode we aregoing to supply you with a
couple use cases from some ofour customers who experienced
this firsthand.
It increased their purchaseprice a little bit, but it
dramatically decreased theirtotal cost of operation.
So stay with us for that littlebit, but it dramatically
decreased their total cost ofoperation.
So stay with us for that.
Now I want to shift gears alittle bit and talk about a
couple other subjects related tobrakes.
(13:50):
Okay, so to our audience onYouTube.
I want you to put in thecomments right now what
percentage of commercial truckson North American roads have air
disc brakes.
So we're just talking abouttrucks here.
Is it 12 to 15%, 18 to 25%, 26to 30% or is it closer to 50%?
(14:13):
Put it in the comments andwe're going to answer that
question in just a minute.
So let's talk about how brakeswere very consistent for many
decades.
Early in my career it was allS-cam brakes, pretty consistent,
same products.
There was some changes to thefriction material.
There was some changes todesign, but this was slow and
(14:34):
over a number of years.
And then we had theintroduction of air disc brake,
which really promised a lot butadoption of it was very slow.
There's been several iterationsof AirDisc breaks and it seems
to now be catching on.
So tell me a little bit fromyour perspective, like let's
talk about the history ofAirDisc break, and why was it so
(14:56):
slow to come on and for peopleto adopt it and why now is it
becoming more popular?
Jay Kay (15:02):
30 years ago I got hired into it was Rockwell at
the time and I got hired in towork on the new disc breaking
mode because it was coming on.
It was going to be.
You know, take on the.
You know everything in theworld.
I would say the biggest issuewith it is like acquisition cost
.
You know was really slow totake off and that's probably
(15:24):
been one of the bigger driversyou know with delaying the
implementation of it.
We've done a really good jobwith that.
Getting that piece down.
It was another element thatkind of it was hurting.
The disc brake piece was andyou're probably familiar with
this getting service parts outthere.
That problem is I don't thinkit's completely solved, but it's
(15:48):
way, way better than it everhas.
It does bring a niceperformance.
You know, and anybody that'sdriving their passenger car
right now, they're all discbrakes.
They stop very consistently,know, consistently, very evenly.
Disc brakes has kind of helped,you know.
You know, bring that that feelto them where you know like I'm
sure you know, like some peoplethat have driven like even older
(16:11):
drum brakes, right, you gottamake sure you're holding on to
that wheel with both hands andum, you know they do very well.
But you know, in emergencysituations and things like that,
I think you know overall theperformance of a disc brake will
just give a smoother, you know,more consistent um stop yeah,
between amt uh transmissions anddisc brakes, uh, trucks have
(16:32):
come a long way, uh, compared tothose old days, for sure.
Jamie Irvine (16:36):
so let's get to uh , what percentage of commercial
vehicles have S-cam?
What percentage of vehicleshave air disc brakes?
So we asked that question alittle earlier.
What's the answer?
How many trucks and trailers inNorth America are running air
disc brake right now?
Jay Kay (16:50):
Our data has shown we're about 50-50 with disc
brakes and drum brakes.
Okay, on trailers were about 15, uh, one five on disc brakes
for trailers and the remainderdrum brakes on, um, like medium
duty trucks.
Uh, you know that kind of uhcombination were a similar,
(17:13):
about about 15 disc brakes ontrucks.
You know market hasn't quiteseen the big benefits to go
after the disc brakes.
We see a trend to keep going upoverall in disc brakes.
In fact by 2030, we'reprojecting somewhere around 75%.
Jamie Irvine (17:34):
So 50%, that's actually a higher number than I
actually thought originally.
I personally thought it wascloser to like 30%.
So on North American Class 8trucks, we're talking about 50%
now being on air disc brake, andthat's going to grow.
So what did you put in thecomments?
Were you right?
Let me know if you were right.
Thank you so much, Joe, forcoming on and sharing with us
(17:56):
your extensive knowledge.
I really appreciate you beingon the Parts for Trucks podcast.
Jay Kay (18:00):
Yep Anytime I can share it.
I enjoy these kinds of things.
Jamie Irvine (18:05):
What a great interview.
Joe has such a wealth ofexperience and it's this kind of
partnership with our vendorsthat Parts for Trucks is working
really hard to bring you thesubject matter experts who can
talk about the products that arein the market with such a
authority and with so much greatinformation to help us out.
(18:26):
Now our next guest is a Partsfor Trucks legend and in this
discussion we're going to godeep into the financial impact
of what you choose when you'rebuying brakes for your
commercial trucks and trailers.
We're going to talk about howto identify the brakes and give
(18:46):
you almost like a little minimasterclass, and it's really my
pleasure to introduce our nextguest.
Robert Goodwin is the managerof Customer Care Help Desk in
Eastern Canada for Parts forTrucks.
Robert has 53 years ofexperience in heavy-duty parts.
Of that 53 years, he spent thelast 38 years with Parts for
(19:09):
Trucks.
Robert, welcome to the Partsfor Trucks podcast.
Very happy to have you here.
Robert Goodwin (19:16):
Thank you very much, Jamie.
Jamie Irvine (19:17):
I appreciate the invite how much does it cost
when you use cheap breaks thatneed to be changed more
regularly?
So when you think about breaks,people often just look at the
purchase price.
Right, but how much does itactually cost somebody if they
use a cheap break that's notmatched to their vocation or
(19:38):
their application and they endup having to change the brakes
more regularly?
Robert Goodwin (19:47):
From my experience from years past and
up until now, I've seen peoplemake big mistakes, buying the
wrong friction material.
I've seen them have to do brakework over.
That's double double the workand it's double the time and it
gobbles up shop time and it'sjust a bad scene.
Jamie Irvine (20:00):
Yeah.
So let's break it down.
You make a good point.
So first of all you look at thepurchase price of the original
friction material and you seethat invoice.
So your head can kind ofcapture okay, what does that
cost me?
But what so many people fail tothink about to your point is if
I have to change this frictionmaterial again in, let's say,
(20:22):
six or eight months, what doesthat cost me?
But what so many people fail tothink about to your point is if
I have to change this frictionmaterial again in, let's say,
six or eight months.
So you've got labor, you've gothaving to purchase more product
, but what about downtime?
Robert Goodwin (20:35):
How expensive is that to a fleet?
Well, that can be huge.
It depends on how dedicated theunit is.
You can't go to Ryder and rentjust whatever you want.
If it's a refuse truck, whatare you going to do?
You're down until the wheelsare moving again.
So it's very important to tryto pick the right product for
the job.
The first time, if you can doit and that's what we're here
for is to try to help peopleguide them through and around
(20:58):
some of the potholes that aremade off.
And you are right, jamie.
Very often friction material ispicked based on price.
What's the flyer price fromcompetitor A?
Can you meet it?
Is it the same?
And a lot of the mistake ismade that if it's 20,000-pound
rated brake lining, well,they're all the same.
If it's 23,000 pound rate atbreaklining, that segment is all
(21:22):
the same.
But it couldn't be further fromthe truth.
It's very important to pick theright material for the
application.
Jamie Irvine (21:29):
And that's where it really stops right there.
It's absolutely true.
So let's talk about the otherside of that coin.
What happens to your total costof operation?
Because really that's whatwe're talking about.
We're talking about shiftingfrom looking at our purchase
price to looking at our totalcost of operation.
So what happens to our totalcost of operation when we do the
following One, we invest in ahigh quality friction material
(21:53):
and, two, we match that up toour vocation so that it lasts
longer we match that up to ourvocation so that it lasts longer
.
Robert Goodwin (22:04):
Well, it's going to certainly keep the unit out
of the shop and that allows theshop all the time in the world
to do other things.
And the shop is cleaner.
There is no question about it,and that goes along with
occupation, health and safetyand the mechanics and the techs
that work around and shop labor.
They're happier, and theturnover amongst that staff.
It just improves everything foreverybody Less turnover,
(22:25):
happier staff, cleaner shop andthe work gets done better.
When you're in a well-lit,clean shop, safety rises and the
quality of the work comes rightalong with it.
So that just throws the truckon the road for way more
kilometers.
And when you start looking atshop maintenance you can't beat
that.
To utilize all the timepossible to do all that you can
(22:48):
without going out and buying anylabor if it's necessary.
It's huge and sometimes it'sonly found by trial and error
and a few mistakes, and we'vehelped people over the years
eliminate some of those mistakes.
Jamie Irvine (23:00):
Yeah, and I have seen what you are talking about,
which is there is a alignmentbetween moving off of a purchase
price mindset to a total costof operation mindset.
When you do that at the fleetlevel, there's a connection
between making that shift in howyou approach purchasing and,
(23:22):
for example, buying brakes andall these other aspects of
operating a efficient fleet,operating an efficient shop.
That correlation is definitelythere and that has been proven
time and time again from fleetsall over the country, proven
time and time again from fleetsall over the country.
We're really talking to ourcounter people now, as well as
(23:43):
our people in sales.
They're discussing frictionmaterial with our customers on a
daily basis.
Can you walk us through how ourpeople on the counter, our
outside salespeople, should helpa customer to specify the right
friction material for theirvocation or application?
Walk us through that process.
Robert Goodwin (24:03):
Well, you kind of have to divide the question
into two.
Number one do we know thecustomer?
Do we know the fleet?
How well do we know the fleet?
What have been the pitfalls inthe past and what can be
corrected through getting thecorrect friction material?
And the other side is thatperson that comes in for the
first time.
He has his old cores with himand he's just looking to buy
(24:26):
some brakes and get out the door, and we don't know much about
him or his fleet.
So, knowing the fleet operationlike is it a low-bed fleet?
We may approach a12-and-a-quarter inch brake
quite different than a 16 and ahalf inch brake.
So that is one thing.
And then, whether is it atritum, is it a tandem fleet, is
it a tritum fleet or is it aquad fleet?
(24:48):
And the more axles there are,the more they have to work the
same and be in unison.
So we have to be careful andpick a piece of brake lining
that's tolerant of some of theseinconsistencies.
Is the fleet a tractor-operatedfleet or are they leasehold
tractor operation that canaffect the operation of the
(25:09):
brakes on the trailer orwhichever, immensely?
Sometimes there's a costthreshold.
When you go to buy milk in agrocery store, you think about
how much it is.
You sort of go, wow, that'sgone up in price.
You pass the threshold, thatlittle moment that's there.
Don't get caught by that.
Sometimes we really have to findthe right product to go, the
(25:33):
right cost per mile.
And then does the fleet havehigh horsepower engines?
You give a driver horsepower,they're going to use it.
We better give him good brakehorsepower because he's going to
use it too.
It just goes hand in hand.
And then we have to have just alittle bit of understanding of
(25:56):
what season we're going into.
You get into some of the moresouthern parts of the provinces
here in Canada and understandingthat trucks are going to run US
.
There's a lot of gear that runsFlorida, california.
What kind of heat are theygoing to get into?
So we got to manage that heat,remember.
So all of this kind of comesinto play and it can be very
(26:20):
stressful for a counter personto show he knows what he's
talking, what are she, and getthese questions in their mind
figured out before they approachthe price and the product
that's going to be sold to thecustomer.
Jamie Irvine (26:33):
so there's a lot to it, jamie robert, you did a
great job of summarizing variousways that we need to think
about the customer, their needs,and you brought up so many good
points.
I think that it's just importantfor all of our people on the
counter, in sales, when they aretalking to our customers, to
(26:53):
have that conversation.
Sometimes, when time is of theessence and they just need parts
and in and out, you don't thinkthat's not necessarily the time
to have that completeconversation, but you need to
get to know your customers, needto have these conversations on
a regular basis with themBecause, at the end of the day,
the more education we can bring,the more we can help them to
(27:15):
make good decisions when itcomes to things like friction
material, the more that trustbetween us and the customer is
developed.
And if you're listening rightnow and you are one of our
customers, we want you tounderstand that we really care
about giving you not just theproduct that you ask for,
necessarily, but the productthat you actually need, because
we want you to be successful.
(27:36):
The more successful you are,the more successful, ultimately,
we are, and it really helps usto fulfill our mission to
support the trucking industry.
Okay, so can you go through thebasics of how to identify our
SCAM brakes.
Walk us through the processthat you go through when you're
teaching people how to do this.
Robert Goodwin (27:56):
Okay, jamie, if we were to look at drive axle
brakes, 16 and a half by sevenas a standard size, just to keep
it simple for the sake of thepodcast here, in the dual anchor
pin style brake that Meritor orRockwell in the early days was
known as, came into being.
(28:16):
In the early days it was twoanchor pins or one, sir, that
was the question.
And if it was one, we knew ithad to be an Eaton brake, which
I'll get into in a second.
But if it was two anchor pinsthat held these shoes in place
inside that wheel envelope, ithad to be a Meritor brake.
So in the early days it wasthree quarter inch thick block,
(28:37):
piece of cake.
Along comes design change andthey decide to make this Q plus
break.
How are we going todifferentiate it?
Well, we're going to take thehump that was in the web of the
Q shoe, the three quarter inchthick block.
We're going to take it away.
So there'll be no hump.
If that is gone, it's going tobe a Q plus break which has
(29:00):
seven, eight inch thick blockand for the short time it got
mixed up, like you wouldn'tbelieve.
So it becomes very confusing.
So the second way to check.
It is the spacing between therivet holes at either end of
that brake shoe because theyhave a friction material
standards Institute have astandard for all these drill
(29:21):
holes.
So the spacing on a Q plusbreak will be wider between the
rivet holes than a standard 45,15, three quarter block.
So that's a way to check it.
The other way is take a look atthe S cam, the S cam head, and
if it's an inch andthree-eighths across the neck of
(29:42):
the cam it's the old Q stylebrake.
Do not try to put a Q plus on.
If it's one and one-eighth inchyou can put both a Q and a Q
plus on.
But you just have to rotate thecam shaft just that little more
so that the rise of the S's ona Q plus cam are longer than on
a Q plus on.
But you just have to rotate thecamshaft just that little more
so that the rise of the S's on aQ plus camera longer than on a
(30:03):
Q by its machining.
So that kind of tucks, theRockwell or the Meritor brake
and all the other brands thatrun on that same platform, which
could be Hendrickson, theBendix, spicer style dual anchor
pin brakes, are all on thatsame dimensional characteristic
(30:24):
of that dual anchor pin.
When we go over to the Eatonbrake, which utilizes a big
single anchor pin, the shoe sitson either side of that one big
pin.
Either side of that one big pin.
It's easier.
The webbing on the old style orthe early 4311, or the early
(30:45):
style Eaton brake had a web thatwas not straight from the
anchor pin to the roller.
It came in narrower towards theroller and the rollers were two
piece.
So if you had an Eaton brakethat had that design with a
two-piece roller, you had to putthat Eaton standard 4311 brake
(31:06):
back on.
When the ES2 come along, theywent to a one-piece roller and
went to a 7.8 thick blockthemselves, went to a 7-8 thick
block themselves and that brakeshoe, brand spanking new out of
the box, is a non-tapered brakeblock.
The cam and the anchor end lookthe same.
(31:26):
In fact they're easily mixed upin a remand shop.
If you're not careful it'sbecause the taper's built into
the shoe.
So that allows you to get the7-8 thick block in where you
took the old 3-quarter inch oneoff.
But the same camshaft rulesapply.
If it's 1-3-8 across the neckyou have to put a 45-15 back on
(31:47):
or the old standard Eaton style.
If you convert that over to aninch and an eighth camshaft you
can convert it to either an ES-1or an ES ES2.
And that presents anotherlittle differentiation.
The early conversion to an ESstyle or 7-8 thick block for an
Eaton had tabs on the end of theshoe table.
(32:08):
The ES2 had the return springholes or the anchor pin.
Retainer holes were a part ofthe actual shoe table.
The table was just a littlelonger to allow them to have the
holes there.
But either way a much greaterimprovement in brake life when
we found that extra littleone-eighth of an inch.
(32:30):
That one-eighth of an inch hadso many more miles.
So it's obviously very wise toget that on whenever it's
possible.
Jamie Irvine (32:39):
The reason I ask you that question is because I
just wanted people to get asense of how much goes into
proper identification offriction material.
And we just talked about our 16and a half by seven brakes.
We didn't talk about a drive orsteer axle.
We didn't talk about otherdimensions.
So it's very important for youto understand these different
(32:59):
characteristics of the brakesand to learn how to identify
them, how to take propermeasurements, how to both
visually but then to doublecheck that your initial visual
identification is actuallyaccurate and it's going to meet
the needs of the customer.
Now, when we shift to air discbrake, it's a completely
(33:20):
different scenario.
So could you give us some bestpractices for helping parts
people identify air disc brakes?
Robert Goodwin (33:28):
Well, the first is a visual.
If you were to stand at theback of the trailer if it's a
trailer or even a truck you'llnotice that the brake chambers
are fast and perpendicular tothe wheel.
Once you get the wheels off,they kind of look all the same.
So careful identification ofthe caliper is probably one of
(33:49):
the quicker ways.
Bendix is very good aboutidentifying their caliper.
In fact, on NorthAmerican-built trailers that
have Bendix air disc brakes on,it's either an ADB22 or, in
recent years, adb22lts.
But some other manufacturerswill use other versions of that
(34:11):
Norbrems or Bendix as we knowthem in North America caliper,
and could use an ST7 or an SK7caliper, as SAF Holland has done
.
Those two calipers will havetags, a blue tag or a green tag,
and each one will say whichstyle that it is.
And SAF Holland have a very,very good wall chart that we can
(34:34):
provide anybody that would liketo have one that, almost model
by model, as they havetransitioned through design
changes into different spindleconfigurations and other things
that they've tried to makeimprovements on, it'll take you
right through it.
It's probably one of the moreconfusing ones.
(34:56):
Believe me, jamie, this is oneof the biggest challenges we
have as a parts distributoraftermarket parts distributor is
to identify air dish brakedesigns, because there are so
many trailer builders that maybein one model year they lean
towards Haldex or SAF Hollandand then the first thing you
(35:18):
know, there's a wobco underwhatever this wheel is.
It can be really, really tricky.
You really got to pull that padoff.
The pad will tell us exactlywhat is on that unit for air to
spray.
Jamie Irvine (35:32):
When I was learning the parts business and
we were focused more on theS-cam style brakes.
When we were identifying drumsyou were looking at the bolt
hole pattern, the number ofstuds, and we would take
measurements and then we had ourcharts and we could compare
them.
Is there something similar forthe actual disc in the air disc
(35:52):
brake system?
Robert Goodwin (35:54):
Yes, there is.
But air dish brakes are a wholedifferent animal.
The hub has to be pulled inevery case to change the rotor.
There is a hat style, there's aflat style, there's a spline
style to these rotors anddepending on the brand of the
(36:14):
air dish brake system, they willemploy one or another or
whatever.
There is no rule of thumbreally.
That is reliable.
He didn't know what he's intountil that trailer's in and the
wheels are off.
Oh my God, what's in it?
What's this?
Where am I going to go for this?
So it's in our best interest tobe right up on the right
(36:39):
questions to ask is a hat styleis a fine style?
How many studs are there?
Is there a number on the hub?
That steel or aluminum hubshould have a number on it.
That usually is designed tomarry up only with a certain
style rotor.
So if we can find one or theother we can get the guy going.
(37:00):
We keep a wide variety of airto spray components, especially
hubs and rotors.
Jamie Irvine (37:07):
Robert, thank you so much for going through that
in such detail.
I really appreciate it.
I'd like to shift theconversation now back to that
conversation that we had earlierwhere we were talking about
resisting the urge to look atjust purchase price to really
invest in high quality frictionmaterial that is going to lower
(37:29):
your total cost of operation.
Could you share with me anexample of a customer that we
had who overcame the urge to buycheap brakes, made the
investment, and what was thesituation and what ended up
happening?
Robert Goodwin (37:44):
So we get a call from an outside salesman, have
this fleet that began buyingbrakes from us by the skid, and
here in Atlantic Canada ithappens, but it's more unusual
than eight or ten boxes ofbrakes at a time, Whole skid.
Wow, what's going on?
And then it shifts from wow,I'm spending a lot of money.
(38:08):
I got to try to get the costdown on all this product.
And then the question comesthrough you've got to have
something cheaper.
Well, we take the box out ofthe picture, we take the
hardware kit out to make theprice look better.
It does, but you're not gettinga hardware kit, you need it.
And after a while we got to aspot where there's no more room
(38:30):
to go.
There's no more cost savings tobe had.
Finally, the outside salesmanfor this customer said when you
come?
When can you come visit with meto visit this customer?
He's going through breaks on apretty regular basis.
Got to help him.
So we sit down with thecustomer.
The first thing comes up you'vegot to lower my cost per mile.
(38:52):
I said okay, we need to talkabout you buying a more
expensive, higher quality brake.
And he just sat back in hischair.
What makes you think I'm goingto go for that.
I'm already spending too much.
So we went through the processof talking about cost per mile.
Produce this little form.
We talk about it with thecustomer.
(39:13):
And I said to the customer it'sgoing to be a year's worth of
commitment.
Your fleet is large enough.
We're going to have to gothrough all your trucks and all
your trailers and upgrade themto this better product.
If you've got the stomach forthat in your budget, you're
gonna be the winner.
Well, fast forward, a year goesand actually it was like 14
(39:36):
months go by.
We have another meeting and allalong we had phone
conversations how we doinglittle updates and all this and
that we sit down and he said tome he said the saving in that
particular fleet of about 50tractors and 90 odd trailers was
in almost $100,000.
(39:58):
And it was a big enough number.
They didn't believe it, but itwas.
By investing 8% and 10% more inthat brake job he saved all
that money.
So the proof is in the pudding,jamie, but you have to have the
stomach to see it through.
There is better product outthere and it will do what we say
(40:19):
it will do.
Jamie Irvine (40:20):
Robert, thank you so much for being on the podcast
.
Robert Goodwin is our managerof Customer Care Help Desk in
Eastern Canada.
He has 53 years' in heavy dutyparts and we were so glad to
have you on the podcast where wecould get a little bit of that
experience from you.
Thanks, Robert.
Robert Goodwin (40:37):
Thank you very much, Jamie, for the invitation.
Really enjoyed the opportunity.
Jamie Irvine (40:41):
Thank you.
I told you Robert was a legend.
He didn't disappoint.
You can really hear his yearsof experience when he's talking
about the subject of brakes.
Now, it's one thing to selectthe correct brake parts for your
application and making a goodpurchase decision.
It's another to make sure thatthe service work on your vehicle
(41:02):
, especially when it comes toyour brakes, is done correctly.
And this episode wouldn't becomplete without a discussion
about the fundamentals of bothinspecting and repairing your
brakes.
To help us with that, I haveinvited Phil Hutton, service
manager in our Dartmouthlocation, to the podcast to talk
to us about the service side ofbrakes.
(41:25):
Phil, welcome to the podcast.
Phil Hutton (41:27):
Hi, jamie, nice to be here.
Jamie Irvine (41:29):
Glad to have you here And've been talking about
brakes in this episode, and Iwanted to conclude this episode
with a discussion about justexactly what's involved, to kind
of give people an idea.
Maybe drivers or parts peoplethey're involved in the process
but they don't really know whatthe technicians do to make sure
that brakes are inspectedcorrectly and make sure that
(41:50):
when they do that inspection,you know we're able to catch
things before they become aproblem.
So let's go through the stepstogether.
What is the first step that atechnician should do when
preparing to do a brakeinspection?
Phil Hutton (42:07):
Well, firstly, jamie, obviously we've got to
talk about the safety aspects.
We've got to make sure that thetruck is in the right position,
secured with wheel chocks andall the usual safety stuff.
If we're going to be liftingthe truck up, we've got to make
sure that the jacks and the axlestands are the right rating and
that everything is correct.
Let's just get that one out ofthe way because obviously it's
(42:29):
paramount to us.
You know safety.
So firstly, with a brake check,you know we want to look in
generally from outside.
We want to look at all thecomponents are in the right
place, you know the brakechambers where they should be,
and securely fastened, you know.
So we're just looking atgeneral security to start with
before we start getting into thenitty-gritty of it.
(42:49):
So that's what generally we'relooking at Wheels are in place,
nuts, that sort of thing,because all these are going to
have a factor on the brakingsystem as a whole in general, so
what I'm hearing is properpreparation prevents poor
performance, exactly Right, okay.
Jamie Irvine (43:05):
So from the safety perspective, when we have the
vehicle safely secured, we'reconfident now that we can move
forward.
Is there anything on thetooling side that usually you
like to get ready ahead of timeor you like to have your
technicians prepare?
Walk me through just what theydo there and what is the first
step of the inspection what isthe first step of the inspection
(43:28):
In a wheel-off inspection?
Phil Hutton (43:29):
obviously we're going to be having the wheels
off.
They're going to need a wheelgun, sockets and all that stuff.
Probably a hammer Tape measureis going to be key in this
situation.
Nothing too technical regardstooling, but those are some of
the few things that will beneeded as we move through this.
Jamie Irvine (43:47):
Okay, so now I've got the safety, I've got my
tools ready.
Let's get into the actualinspection.
Talk to me about that initialvisual inspection.
What is the technician lookingfor?
Phil Hutton (43:59):
Again, we're looking.
Obviously we're looking forobvious signs of breakage.
You know brake linings that areeither cracked, broken or
missing.
You know bent steel work Thingsare in the right place.
Springs there's two or threesprings involved inside the
brakes, making sure thateverything is in place and where
(44:21):
it should be.
You know rollers there's anchorpins, rollers there's various
items that need to be in place.
We're going to look at thingslike are we lubricated properly?
You know the generalization.
We're going to look at thingslike are the chambers correct?
From one side to the other,things happen in the field.
(44:41):
Things get changed becausethere isn't one available and
they need to get out of a tightspot.
So we've got to make sure thatchambers are correct.
Slack adjusters are the samefrom side to side, because it's
good practice to have the sameitems and makes and models on
the same vehicle.
So those are the sorts of thingsthat we're going to as we start
(45:02):
getting deeper into it.
Those are the key points thatwe need to take care of before
we move further.
Jamie Irvine (45:08):
Yeah, it's a good point about things being the
same both sides of the axle.
You're absolutely right, thosethings do happen.
So let's just go on anassumption here that we haven't
found anything obviously broken,but we still need to assess
whether or not a brake job isneeded.
(45:30):
So these are wear items.
So walk me through the processof establishing okay, do I need
to change the drums?
Do I need to change thefriction material?
How do we get there?
Phil Hutton (45:41):
There's a fair bit of measuring there is, you know,
from the linings there is acertain thickness requirement
that's needed.
Good signs From the liningsthere is a certain thickness
requirement.
That's needed.
Good signs.
On a larger truck we haverivets.
Obviously if they're protrudingor wearing then we're obviously
needed changing things.
But there are other shoesavailable where they're bonded,
so rivets are not clear.
So there are minimumrequirements for certain shoe
(46:15):
thicknesses and linings thathave to be met for MVI or safety
standards.
Drums likewise.
They come at a certain size andthey have to meet those
requirements.
So on a 16.5-inch drum, as anexample, although they can
change, you're allowed 120,000oversize.
So that goes from 16.5 to16.620.
Those are your maximum figuresor you've got to fall in between
(46:39):
those.
So those are the nuts and boltsof brakes, so to speak, the
shoes and the drums.
There's a lot more surroundingthem.
You know when you're measuringthings.
You know a big complaint of alot of customers is, you know,
they got 300,000 out of theirfirst brake job and the next
brake job only lasted 150,000 or200,000.
(47:01):
Why is that?
You know, they think we sellsubstandard parts or a lot of
those loads, substandard partsor those lines.
What they've got to realize ifthey're changing their own parts
, they have to make sure thatcamshaft, bushings, all the
things, fall within spec,because any wear on these is
going to add extra wear furtherdown the line, you know.
So spending a little bit ofmoney bringing those cams back
(47:24):
up to specifications would payoff dividends down the line in
longevity of the job that you'redoing.
Jamie Irvine (47:32):
In addition to all of the foundation brake
components, what about thegeneral air brake system that
this is all connected to?
What do you do there to makesure that you're not missing
anything?
Phil Hutton (47:45):
So, specifically, you know the technicians
bringing it in and and I wouldadvise that any technician does
this you know it's a brakeproblem.
Well, let's get back to thething that's activating and
that's doing that the air system, right.
So when we're checking brakesand you're doing adjustments, so
to speak, you know, make sure,when we're checking stroke
length, that that has to bebetween 90 and 100 psi.
(48:07):
Firstly, can the truck achievethat?
You know you're going to makesure that it can get up to the
air pressure required.
You also want to check thatwe're not leaking.
So, putting your foot on thebrake, building up to pressure
first, let's stop two minutes.
Does that pressure drop?
Put your foot on the brake,same procedure again.
Do we get any pressure droppage?
You know you don't want to seemuch more than five PSI drop
(48:30):
over those two items whereyou're just checking.
That means you know your airsystem is in good standing and
you know you make a reasonableassumption that you can move
forward with the rest of therepair.
Jamie Irvine (48:41):
Yeah.
So now you've done all of thiswork, you've replaced the
necessary parts, you're puttingit all back together again.
When we're at that point, whatdo we have to think about in
terms of making sure the brakesare properly adjusted and
functionally testing them tomake sure that everything is
good?
Phil Hutton (48:59):
We're going to.
We're going to check the brokebrake stroke now.
So we're going to adjust theslack adjusters and we're going
to check for free play first.
So we adjust the slackadjusters and we're going to
check for free play first.
So we adjust the slack adjusterto where we think it should be
and then we're going to checkfree play, that's the distance
between the brake shoe and thedrum before it makes contact.
How we do that as a technician,we'll take a lever and pry on
(49:24):
that slack adjuster and we'relooking for a measurement
between somewhere around 5-8 to7-8 of an inch.
And how we measure that is fromthe base of the chamber to
normally, the center pin of theslack adjuster, the clevis pin.
So that's the free play you'rekind of looking for.
Remember, that is just aguideline at this stage.
(49:47):
You know what I mean.
Next, what you'll have to do ismaking sure the air is up to
pressure, apply the brakes witha, you know, between a 90 and
100 psi air pressure.
This should give you a fullbrake stroke application.
And again, you have to measurethe brake strokes.
Now, depending on the chambers,the position of the chambers,
(50:09):
the size of the chambers, thatstroke does change, um, so I'm
not going to tell you.
You know it's going to be a, aninch and a half or two inches
or whatever it is, but there isspecifications out there.
So whether you've got somebodyto help you, you know, press the
brake, brake, the brake pedal,or you've got something that
enables you to do that, um, sothat's where you go from.
(50:29):
Also, what I would check and nota lot of people do.
Again, those things are changedout in the field.
Were they done correctly?
Checking brake geometry is isimportant as well.
You know, when the brakes arefully, uh, you know depressed,
and you've got a full brakestroke application, the push rod
of the chamber and the slackadjuster should be at 90 degrees
(50:51):
.
This will give you your maximum, you know, uh, force available
to you.
You know what I mean.
Not a lot of that is checkedvery often, you know.
We make a lot of assumptions,you know.
Jamie Irvine (51:00):
So that's important to check that too so,
as you can tell, there's quite abit to this.
Now the brake job.
Brake job is done to the partsfor trucks standard and we're
ready now to give the vehicleback to our customer.
What can they expect in the wayof documentation?
What do we do internally tomake sure that we've done things
correctly?
(51:21):
What do we communicate to thecustomer?
Phil Hutton (51:33):
Normally within the work order we will explain what
we do and explaining that thevehicle is now within
specification to the OEMstandards and we also internally
monitor those and log thosemeasurements for future
reference and any issues,obviously that do happen in the
future.
We also make recommendationsfor the customer of any other
repairs that may be needed oralong the lines of you know,
future problems that might occurfor those guys and hopefully we
(51:55):
give the customers as muchinformation as we can to keep
them happy.
Jamie Irvine (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, phil, thank you so muchfor walking us through this
process.
It gives people insight intowhat is involved.
It's one thing to buy the rightparts.
It's another thing to also havethem installed correctly and
have it all come together with avehicle that keeps cost of
operation down and operatessafely.
Safety is a big concern foreveryone involved.
(52:23):
If you'd like to have one ofour many service centers across
the country work on one of yourvehicles, head over to
partsfortruckscom forward slashservice and you'll be able to
get in contact with one of ourservice managers and go from
there.
Phil, thank you so much fortaking time.
I know you're busy in the shop.
Really appreciate you being onthe podcast.
Phil Hutton (52:42):
No problem, Thanks.
Jamie Irvine (52:43):
Jamie.
These three interviews havebeen just packed with great
information.
The years of experience ofthese three individuals really
shone through and it was a realprivilege to be able to put this
together for you.
You've been listening to theParts for Trucks podcast.
I'm your host, jamie Irvin.
In this episode we got thismasterclass in brakes, but we're
(53:06):
going to cover a lot more onthe podcast than just breaks.
So if you like the content thatyou're hearing, head over to
partsfortruckscom slash podcastor go to wherever you get your
podcasts.
Make sure you follow the showfor free so you don't miss out
on any of the upcoming deepdives that we're going to do on
everything related to heavy dutyparts service.
(53:27):
Thank you for tuning in to thisepisode of the Parts for Trucks
podcast and, as always, I wantto thank you for being heavy
duty.
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