February 14, 2025 • 42 mins
Ever wondered about the driving force behind psychiatric mental health nursing? Join us as the remarkable Dr. Kathleen Kitty Buckwalter unravels her starstruck encounter with the legendary Hildegard Peplau. Dr. Buckwalter, alongside esteemed guests Dr. Sean Convoy from Duke University and Dr. Melissa Chapman, share their personal stories and insights, painting a vivid picture of Peplau's influential journey. Listen closely as Dr. Buckwalter reflects on her own impressive career in geropsychiatry and the parallels between her experiences and those of Peplau, offering a heartfelt tribute to the mother of psychiatric nursing.
Explore the lasting impact of Dr. Peplau's work and how her insightful blend of theory and practice continues to shape psychiatric nursing today. Despite her concerns about modern mental health care's limitations, Peplau's pioneering spirit and dedication shine through. Our guests share memories of a memorable conference at Rush University, revealing Peplau as a commanding yet approachable figure devoted to integrating psychiatry, medicine, and nursing seamlessly. Discover how her collaboration on a significant paper about duly certified nurse practitioners still resonates and influences current practices.
Celebrate the lighter moments in Peplau's life, from playful conference antics with her colleague Grace to her anonymous advocacy efforts in stroke care education. These stories not only highlight Peplau's generosity but also her unwavering commitment to advancing nursing. We delve into her innovative ideas, like the exhausting effect of vigilance, and how they remain relevant today. This episode is a heartfelt homage to Peplau's enduring legacy and a testament to how her teachings continue to inspire nurses to rise to the challenges of contemporary healthcare.
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
yeah, just my take on things.
My answer number two welcomeback everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Uh, thank you so much for tuning in to Peplow's Ghost
.
This is going to be aninteresting episode.
I'm glad you tuned in.
I'm really excited about ourguest that I'm going to get into
introducing.
It's going to be a very funride to kind of learn a little
bit of history about Geropsych,the American Psychiatric Nurse
Association, and actually meet.
(00:45):
You have to talk to somebodywho's met Hildegard Peplau.
So, looking forward to thisepisode and really appreciate Dr
Kitty Buckwalter here sharingher experience.
I'm also joined, thankfully, byDr Sean Convoy from Duke
University and Dr MelissaChapman who's continuously
bringing in the non-nursing sowe don't get too jargony in our
(01:06):
conversation.
So thank you so much and again,thank you all for listening.
Tuning in, subscribing Haven'tgotten any comments, so please
feel free to leave comments forthe episode.
If you want to hear from someoneelse.
We're making out a list ofepisodes coming up for the rest
of the year, so let us know ifyou want to hear from somebody
else.
But let's get it to our honoredguest, dr Kathleen Kitty
(01:28):
Buckwalter.
She wanted a very short bio butI'm trying to do it.
But there's a lot to say aboutDr Buckwalter here.
So first off I'll say she gother master's degree in psych,
mental health nursing from theUniversity of Iowa.
I think last night when we weretalking you actually mentioned
that you had gone to school withsomeone here kind of locally
and we had her on the podcastlast week Chris McCormick-Pree.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Isn't that right?
Yes, I couldn't remember.
We were talking about VeraFrench.
Yes, and she's been at, yeah,yep.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So Chris was on the podcast last week and had a
great time.
You also got your PhD innursing from the University of
Illinois in Chicago.
Had a great time.
You also got your PhD innursing from the University of
Illinois in Chicago.
I'm not mentioning years, butthat was the time when there
wasn't many PhD programs innursing around, right?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
There were 10 in the whole country 10 in the whole
country.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, geez.
This may be out of date, butbest guess is you've written
extensively, obviously mostly ingeropsychiatry.
I got 250 articles, 80 bookchapters and eight edited books.
Very humbling to kind of readthat number.
It's very impressive.
2001, you were named theAmerican Psychiatric Nurse
(02:35):
Association's Excellent inResearch Award winner.
You were also named at theUniversity of Iowa as
Distinguished Alumni Award.
You are a fellow in theAmerican Academy of Nursing and
in 2020, were actually electedas a living legend, and that's
kind of a weird saying.
I always think it's like you'realive.
(02:58):
Congrats Always one of thosemorbid type of awards, but but
again, well deserved.
Only five, only five electedeach year for that.
So that's amazing.
So again, as I like to start thepodcast, usually since Kitty,
I've known you for a long time.
I think you were one of thepeople who wrote my
recommendations for my master'sprogram in psych, and so do you
(03:21):
remember the first time that wemet no in psych?
And so do you remember thefirst time that we met no?
So that's okay.
I, I, you know it's one ofthose things that it was
probably more impactful for me.
I, what I remember, and and thisis something that I want to
probably maybe apologize for,because I was.
I will say I was just a bitstarstruck, but we were.
What I remember is we were in aelevator in the college of
nursing at at Iowa, riding upand you were asking me about
(03:44):
things I was doing and kind ofyou know.
I think at that time you werewriting the recommendation for
my MSN program and things and so.
But I remember just kind of notkind of you know, not saying
much, just kind of averting myeyes, just kind of again a
little starstruck, and so I hopeI wasn't off-putting in any way
.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But no, and I'll tell you, dan.
That's exactly my reaction thefirst time I met Hilda.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Oh well, there's a good transition then, so why
don't we take it right there andthere it says that's the real
cool thing I think here is thatyou know our podcast.
Obviously Pep Lau's Ghost isnamed after Hildegard Pep Lau,
who's the mother of Psych,mental Health Nursing, and so to
(04:28):
have somebody on the podcastwho's actually seen her, talked
to her, I think that's what wewant to kind of hear from you.
So what was your experiencelike meeting her and getting to
know her?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, I'd like to use this opportunity to reflect on
the interactions I had with I'llcall her Hilda because that's
what we called her over manydecades and in many forms, and
the first was via letters, thenin person at meetings and
conferences, and then in somelittle-known literature where
(04:54):
her voice as an advocate andteacher came through.
And I say little-known becauseshe was anonymous, but the
author of the literature is afriend of mine, so I knew about
it.
I just want to share somepersonal anecdotes of maybe a
different side of Hilda, and notto negate but to amplify, I
(05:20):
think, the esteemed theorist and, as you said, mother of
psychiatric nursing.
But I want to present somedifferent sides of her, I think.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
The human side.
Yeah, human and fun, fun, yeah,you remember.
I mean you were mentioning shewas kind of an anonymous figure
there, especially in thebeginning, like probably all of
us at our inner infancyprofessionally gear there,
especially in the beginning,like probably all of us at our
inner infancy professionally.
What was something that drewyou to her?
Or was it just letter writing,like you said?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Well, yeah, I'll start with when I was a doctoral
student at the University ofIllinois, as you mentioned, so
this would have been the late70s, and by way of background.
So I was commuting by Greyhoundbus for four years from Iowa
because we couldn't afford asecond car and paying out of
state tuition in Illinois.
I couldn't afford an apartmentfor sure, and so Illinois was on
(06:18):
the quarter system and therewere 10 people in my class and
so every week for four years Ilived with a different classmate
, and one of those classmateswas Olga Church.
Olga Church became a nursehistorian.
She was on the faculty at theUniversity of Connecticut for
many years and I always lovedstaying at her house because she
lived in Evanston.
(06:39):
Her husband at the time was aprofessor at Northwestern, so it
was a little upscale from someof the other places with my
fellow doctoral students where Istayed.
But when it was my turn to stayat Olga's house and I would
take the 2 am bus in to get intoChicago by 8 and start classes
(07:01):
all day, so I was there Monday,tuesday, wednesday and then
Thursday after class I'd leaveand come back to Iowa City and
work 11 to 7 shifts at old psychhospital over the weekend.
Anyway, olga and I were towardsthe end of our coursework and
struggling to get ourdissertations off the ground and
(07:23):
when we were stuck, when we hadessentially writer's block, we
decided that we would writepapers about history of
psychiatric nursing, becausethat was her interest and her
dissertation actually was calledthe Noble Reform the emergence
of psychiatric nursing in the USfrom 1880 to 1963.
(07:48):
We were taking a course fromTeresa Christie, who was also on
the faculty at Iowa but came toIllinois to teach a nursing
history course, core course inour doctoral program.
So it was part of ourcoursework and we identified two
psychiatric nurses and this wasactually the first paper I ever
(08:11):
published.
The first and third papers Iever published were with Olga,
and the first one was Buckwalderand Church Euphemia, jane
Taylor, an uncommon psychiatricnurse.
You may not know Effie.
She was known as Effie Taylor,but she was the first nurse to
integrate psych nursing into thecurriculum, both at Johns
(08:36):
Hopkins and later at Yale, whereshe served as dean from 1934 to
1944.
1934 to 1944.
She was probably best known,however, for her presidency of
the International Council ofNurses from 1937 to 1947.
But she did some reallypioneering things in psych
nursing.
So we started out wanting tofind out about her and to write
(09:01):
about her.
So that was the very firstpaper we published in
Perspectives in PsychiatricNursing and that was, oh, 1979,
we published that.
The second paper was Church andBuckwaller, 1980, harriet
Bailey, a psychiatric nurse,pioneer also in Perspectives in
Psychiatric Care, and she wasthe nurse who wrote the first
(09:24):
psychiatric nursing textbookcalled Nursing Mental Disease in
1920.
And I want to read to you from apaper that Olga published in
2000 in Japna, the Journal ofthe Psychiatric Nurses
Association, and the title ofthe paper is Hildegard E
(09:47):
Peplau's Leadership andAchievements in the Advance of
Psychiatric Nursing the RightPerson in the Right Time and
Place.
So she's describing our effortsto develop these papers, to
develop these papers.
And the second paragraph inthis paper is called
(10:08):
Explorations into theDevelopment of Psychiatric
Nursing and I'm quoting here.
Now, 20 years ago, two eagerand enthusiastic doctoral
students that was, olga andmyself gathered their courage
together to write a letter ofinquiry to Dr Peplau in search
of information for an article.
They together to write a letterof inquiry to Dr Peplau in
search of information for anarticle they hoped to write
(10:28):
Within days.
We received it was actually six, because it was three pages,
both sides handwritten pages,full of suggestions, a list of
nine different sources andresources, complete with names
and addresses.
She ended this encouragingresponse with the comment wish I
could be more helpful.
(10:49):
And then Olga, being ahistorian, has cited that as
personal communication.
October 12th 1979, letter toBuckwalder in church from HE
Peplow, found in the author'scollection.
Because I gave the letter toOlga, knowing her career sites,
I wish now I'd kept a copy formyself, but I didn't.
(11:11):
And then Olga's comment and Iwould echo this is I have since
found that was a typicalresponse from this wise, wise
and generous, scholarly andcomplex woman.
And so that is really how Olgagot her start on a lifelong
career as a nurse.
(11:31):
Historian focused a lot onpeplau and he birds as a
psychiatric nursing.
But also it was my firstencounter with Peplau.
We wrote a lot of others and Iwant to other famous people at
the time who had interacted witheither Harriet Bailey or Effie
(11:55):
Taylor on the East CoastTeachers College, rutgers really
the bastions of psychiatricnursing at the time Phipps
Clinic, johns Hopkins and Yalethe biggest and best response we
got was Peplau and it shaped mein many ways.
(12:15):
First of all it started mylifelong kind of awe of her as a
person, because here she wasreally at the peak of her career
in the 70s and taking the timeto not just write back a letter
but to send resources and thenames and the addresses so we
(12:36):
could.
It would be easiest for us togo on and do our research.
So that had a professionalimpression on me, but also a
personal impression that overthe years I've heard from
students lots of times, some ofthem ridiculous, like send me
everything you've ever writtenabout dementia or that sort of
(12:58):
thing.
But I've tried to be kind andgenerous and to emulate Dr
Peplau in being responsive tostudents because you you never
know what kind of impact good orbad that may have.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's awesome.
So now.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I just want to read a little bit from the first pages
of our article on HarrietBailey, which we published in
Perspectives in 1980.
So we were having a terribletime finding out any information
about Harriet Bailey.
We went to the Maine NursesAssociation because she had
(13:38):
practiced in Maine.
No record of her existence.
We looked in the New York Timesand her obituary.
We consulted people, includingTeresa Christie, who gave us
access to proceedings of theNational League for Nursing
Education, and we just hit onedead end after another, in which
(14:02):
you know you've got enough ofthose as a doctoral student
anyway.
But undaunted and I'm startingto quote here now, and this is
written by Olga and myself,despite the constraints of time
and money to which we weresubject as doctoral candidates,
our search was underway.
Olga actually traveled to theEast Coast, to the National
(14:27):
Nursing Archives of BostonUniversity, as I said, the Maine
State Nurses Association.
All kind of dead ends.
Then we launched thiscomprehensive letter writing
campaign to early leaders inpsychiatric nursing and nursing
education, as well as tolibrarians and activists.
(14:47):
And here's the key part At thesuggestion of Dr Hildegard E
Peplau and this was that lettershe wrote to us that I talked
about earlier we submittedrequests for information to
various nursing journals.
Together, some 20 individualsand institutions were queried,
and it was based on thosesuggestions from PEPLOW that we
(15:08):
were able to gather sufficientinformation to be able to
publish those two early articles.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
You know, and this is great.
I mean I hate to kind ofdisrupt your flow right now, but
you know, as you were, as youwere describing that article
about how she described Hilda,you know, as complex.
That's an interesting term Iguess I hadn't thought of and
maybe you're going to get tothat.
But I'm wondering, melissa orSean, do you have any questions
(15:40):
at this time at this?
Maybe kind of take a little.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Dan, you go to your question.
I like the direction you'retaking in terms of complexity
and I've got one to follow upafterwards.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Okay, I can respond to why I think she used the word
complex.
It's because she was, on theone hand, a brilliant
theoretician, but she was verypragmatic in terms of her
application.
It was a theory that you could,as a psychiatric nurse, you
(16:11):
could relate to, you could use.
It made sense, and so there wasa complexity in that, also in
her personality.
She had a very commandingpresence.
I mean, like I said, I wasawestruck for a while, but she
also could be goofy and I'llrelate some incidents of that
(16:35):
are not really goofy, but shecould have fun and laugh and she
was generous and kind, but shecould put you down.
She was generous and kind butshe could put you down.
If you and I observed this inconferences and stuff and if you
ask a question that she feltwas irrelevant or inappropriate,
(17:00):
she would say you know you'renot thinking right here, You're
not reflecting on what thepatient said to you as a nurse
or that sort of thing.
So she was kind and generous,but she also had very high
standards, so she didn't sufferany fools.
That's exactly right, yeah, Iadmire that quality.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I mean that's yeah, that's not bad.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Complexity comes in.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Thank you for that perspective.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah, kitty, I'll ask .
I'm fascinated.
You're going to call her Hilda,but I'm still going to call her
Dr Feplow.
I'm trying to get you toperhaps read her mind a little
bit.
What do you think she'd sayLike, do you think she's
satisfied with the current stateof both psychiatric nursing as
well as advanced practicepsychiatric mental health
nursing at present?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
the psychiatric, mental health person in the
present, I say no, it's too muchon.
Um, okay, you're depressed?
Uh, what's the bestantidepressant we can prescribe
for you?
There's not enough of thetherapeutic interpersonal work
that she uh championed going ontoday.
Part of that is reimbursementissues, time constraints for
(18:17):
doing therapy.
But I think she would say, guys, you're missing the boat.
And one of the things I'm goingto talk about at the very end
is how she still influenced myprofessional life in a paper
that Tess Judge Ellis and Ipublished in November of 2024.
(18:37):
It was really on duly certifiednurse practitioners, primary
care and psych, and it was in acase study with substance use in
a housing first environment,and what we did was to talk
about the combination ofpsychiatry and medicine and
(18:59):
nursing and how, in this casestudy, yes, there were physical
things, stranger roles and inher theory and how blending the
two, I believe, leads to optimaloutcomes Excellent.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Yeah, so you're telling me that Pep Lau's ghost
is not happy right now, right?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I would think not, and she would probably be the
first if she were able to tellus.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
So thank you very much for that.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, so I didn't want to get in your flow.
I think you're getting intomore kind of anecdotes and kind
of describing her a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Quick anecdotes here.
So my next in-person encounterwith her was at Rush and this
was in the late 1980s.
So I had finished my master'sin psych mental health nursing
at Iowa, got my doctorate in1980 at Illinois, in 1980 at
(20:20):
Illinois and then from 83 to 86,I did a career development
award at a ward at NIMH ingeropsychiatric nursing and it
was following that that I and itwas a budding, as you heard
last night subspecialty but nota whole lot going on.
But at Rush Karen Babbage wasthere.
You know that name from history.
Oh she, she along with GraceSills, one of the big founders
(20:43):
of APNA, and she was head ofpsych nursing at Rush at the at
the time and she and I becamefast friends at the time.
And she and I became fastfriends and I also went to Rush
a lot because they had a settingcalled JR Bowman Healthcare
(21:06):
Center for the Elderly, so itwas a geropsych mini hospital
within the Rush complex andthere I could practice and do
research in my subspecialty andKaren facilitated that and I,
and so I was at Rush a lot andLuther Crispin was the head of
the program at Rush himself,kind of one of those godlike
(21:27):
figures who did so much fordiversity within the nursing
profession.
But he hosted at Rush apsychiatric nursing conference
and Hilda was one of theinvitees who spoke and that sort
of thing, and it was not astand at the podium speak to a
(21:52):
crowd of thousands.
It was a fairly intimatesetting.
It was a select invitee listand we were around a table and
then some chairs in a room.
So it was intimate actually.
And the anecdote I want toshare with you is I always found
Hilda to be very poised in hercomportment and demeanor, but at
(22:19):
lunch she and Luther sat nextto each other and we're telling
stories about their early yearsof being psychiatric nurses,
like in the 1930s and stuff, andtalking about the horrible
things that we visited uponpatients and hypoglycemic shock,
(22:47):
insulin therapy, hydrotherapy,electric shock and psychosurgery
were their discussion and theywere absolutely laughing out
loud, just almost kind of likehooting, about what we used to
do to people and how long youknow we've come a long way, baby
(23:08):
, sort of thing, and brought itback to the conference and the
ladies and what we were doingnow.
Back to the conference and theladies and what we were doing
now.
But I had never seen her withan esteemed colleague, the two
of them just laughing andreminiscing about their early
days.
And I tell you I would haveabsolutely killed to have had a
(23:31):
tape recorder hidden in myblouse or something so I could
have recorded their conversation.
I took a few notes and that'swhere I it was just what they
were talking about.
So I'm confident in theveracity of hypoglycemic shock
and insulin therapy and all thatsort of stuff that they were
talking about.
But it was the first time I'dreally seen a different side of
(23:55):
her and I wanted to share thatwith you.
So she could really let herhair down, so to speak, and she
was comfortable with her closecolleagues.
And that leads me to theincident with Grace Grace Sills,
who was head of psych nursingat Ohio State University and one
(24:16):
of the founders of APNAFabulous person, psych nurse
herself, just I don't know, justso pleasant and enjoyable a
person to be around.
So she and Hilda were fastfriends and they had been both
of them.
Of course Hilda was influentialin both the ANA American Nurses
(24:40):
Association and APNA, but Gracewas primarily focused on APNA
and in the early years.
I was very involved in my earlyyears in APNA and I was I think
I was head of the researchcommittee.
I was certainly on the newlyestablished research committee
(25:01):
and we were, you know,struggling.
We wanted to raise money for agrants.
You know that.
Not, I'm not talking hundredsof thousands, I'm talking 3000
or, you know, three, maybe tofive, to get something going in
terms of nursing research.
I also started the firstgeropsychiatric interest group
(25:25):
within APNA many, many years ago, but anyway, hilda and Grace
had been gambling in Las Vegason vacation.
Grace had been gambling in LasVegas on vacation and I'm not
sure which one, but I think itwas.
Hilda hit the jackpot and I'mtalking big bucks here, like
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I don't know the exact amount.
(25:51):
But again, this gets back tothat characterization of her as
a generous person.
One of the things that they didat like a plenary session of
the next APNA was to say we'regoing to match, dollar for
dollar, everyone who contributesto ANA and in particular the
research fund, and so.
But they did it with likecostumes and music and streamers
(26:13):
and confetti and it made it ajoyous occasion.
Another anecdote I guess thatreflects the not so serious side
of both of them, but theadvocacy do good inside for
nursing of both Grayson andHildegard.
So if you they say, whateveryou want to contribute, hold it
(26:35):
up and we'll come around andwe'll match.
So if you'd hold up a $20 bill,they'd come around, take your
$20 bill and they had like a bagor something, they'd put
another 20 with it and that wentin the APNA fund.
So that was something that wasreally memorable.
I don't know how many peopleeven remember that conference.
I can't tell you the exact date, but I sure remember that event
(26:57):
because they made it thatmemorable.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Did you?
You said, was Hildegard dressedup?
Do you remember the costume shewas wearing?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I remember Grace's big hat on and that sort of
thing.
I don't remember hers.
OK and that sort of thing.
I don't remember hers Okay, butit was.
I wish I had paid betterattention, but at the time I
wasn't thinking about that.
Good question though.
(27:32):
So the next thing I wanted tosay about Hilda reflects that
even in later life and I'mtalking, oh, 90s, 1990s, so
within 10 years of her deaththat she remained an advocate
(27:52):
and a teacher.
She remained an advocate and ateacher, and to support that, I
want to share with you notdetails, because Hilda wished to
remain anonymous in this, butshe shared with a colleague of
(28:13):
mine who is a neuroscience nurseher experiences of having a
stroke in the early 90s and theauthor, my friend.
The author wrote thesereflections chronicle the
experience of a retired nurseeducator.
That was Hilda, who had astroke and shared her
(28:35):
experiences with the author.
And then she talks about.
The format of this paperalternates between the first
person remembrances of the nursewho had a stroke and the
author's analysis of the nurse'sexperience, and so, although
she was never named here, it isher, and she gives a critique of
(28:59):
her care, not all of itflattering in her first-person
narrative, in fact, in somecases highly critical, as she
was initially.
So this was 1990, 91, aroundthere about eight or nine years
(29:19):
before she died.
She was angry.
She was angry about having astroke and she sought to
understand what happened to herand she felt she wasn't
well-informed and she didn'tthink that nursing played a
large enough role in hereducation as a stroke patient
and in helping to create a pathfor her recovery.
(29:42):
She did a lot of reading on herown and what exercises to do
and that sort of thing, so shewas critical of that.
Probably the most importantthing she said in this article
was recounting her feelings thather perceptions were not
considered important.
And you know where that comesfrom Always listen to the
(30:05):
patient and what they have tosay.
So it was like well, sheexpounded this theoretical
framework early on.
Now she was living it personally, but as a patient who's and as
a knowledgeable patient whoseexperiences weren't being
(30:27):
listened to or considered.
She also used this experienceto develop a concept called I
(30:53):
don't know if you was her leftside or right side that was
affected was doing and how wasshe able to clasp her hands
together, and what apsychologically exhausting
experience this was for patientsand how the nurses weren't even
aware of this.
They didn't ask about it.
Nurses and physicians both theydidn't ask about it nurses and
(31:15):
physicians both and how thataffected the recovery process of
people who'd had a stroke.
So I think she essentially andthe author just confirms that
she came up with what we wouldcall now a new nursing diagnosis
.
If you believe in Nanda, nickand Knock, then the exhausting
(31:38):
effect of vigilance would be anursing diagnosis and I think
one that is perhaps translatableto a lot of chronic illnesses
to people who have.
I mean you look at long COVIDnow the exhausting effects of
that.
So it's a remarkable paper.
(31:58):
I think it's little read.
It wasn't published in apopular journal that even in her
later years, in her eighthdecade of life, that she was
(32:19):
still observing nurse-patientinteractions, still commenting
upon them, still teaching andstill being an advocate for
patients.
So that's why I wanted to bringup this article, because I don't
think it's well-known.
Have any of you heard of it?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
No, no, yeah, so.
So, Kenny, thank you again.
I mean I think this shows agreat arc of our person that
again we we try to honor withthis podcast.
And yeah, I just anymore, ifit's OK, maybe we can kind of.
Sean, do you have have any?
Speaker 3 (32:53):
or, unless you got any questions before we get time
, uh, can I just wrap up withone thing after you give give
your question, go ahead, seansure I don't have a question,
but I just have a comment.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I'm so grateful that you shared the story about dr
peplau's gambling exploits.
Yeah, we're telling the story.
Yeah, it's kind of fitting tohighlight it, because we hit the
lottery through her advocacyand stewardship of our yes,
absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
And and she, she shared her bounty in so many
ways.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Yeah, um, you know, as someone, external, as someone
external to the field, and justthinking about my own field,
hearing the power, power of likethese stories and anecdotes and
how like these professionalorganizations came to be, it's
just mind blowing because ithappens so often and then we
forget our histories, eventhough it's really not that long
(33:45):
of a history.
So thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh, you're welcome.
It was my pleasure and I justif I can have a concluding
comment is there time, dan, forthat?
I guess my point would beHildegard Peplau.
Dr Peplau has influenced myprofessional life for decades,
starting in the 70s.
(34:08):
Judge Ellis was the first authoron I was her co-author.
That was published just lastNovember in the Journal of Nurse
Practitioners and it wasentitled A Duly Certified Nurse
(34:30):
Practitioner in a Housing FirstLocation.
Nurse practitioner in a housingfirst location, where we give
examples of PEPLAW's nursingroles in a housing first clinic.
So how did the case studythat's presented exemplify the
stranger role or the teachingrole or that sort of thing?
So for me she has been aprofessional presence in my life
(34:54):
since I was a doctoral studentwhen she wrote back to us and
supplied such wonderfulinformation that really helped
us get our first publicationsuntil the present of her seminal
(35:21):
theory to the work that's beingdone today in really unique
settings by psychiatric nursesand different populations.
And she probably, I mean,wasn't thinking about housing
first because it didn't existthen for homeless and substance
using chronically mentally illpeople, homeless and substance
using chronically mentally illpeople.
But it's still relevant todayand that's just amazing to me,
(35:50):
and so I feel so grateful tohave met her, to have learned
from her and to be able to applythat learning in my own career.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, kitty, so much forsharing your experiences.
I, you know the the.
The phrase that kept rollingthrough my head is you never
know.
When you create a memory, it'syou know, these, these
interactions that you have, andagain, with you and Hildegard
Peplau, I mean, there's probablyhundreds, if not thousands, of
other types of things that thetentacles of her influence you
know continue to.
There's types of things thatthe tentacles of her influence
you know continue to, um,perservate throughout our
(36:16):
profession, which is, again, asyou said, I, I, you know I think
we're all probably in agreementhere that she would be a little
bit ashamed of where ourprofession is going right now as
psych, mental health nurses, um, and it's kind of draw towards
medical model and uh, and it'soveremphasis, but uh, hopefully
she won't be or she would not beupset about this podcast and
how we try to pay homage to it.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Maybe we should all get sweatshirts that say bring
back.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Peplow Well we're working on an article.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Maybe that's the title too.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
What would Peplow say ?
Yeah, we get little wristbands.
That's what we need too, soawesome.
Well, thank you again for thoselistening and please stay tuned
.
We've got uh future episodescoming ahead when uh exciting
new people um get to learn abouttheir practice and such.
But again, thank you very muchfor uh dr kitty buck walter for
joining us and uh tune in nexttime.
(37:05):
We'll have another episode soon, take care I'm honored to have
been invited.
Thanks, after dark withpeplow's ghost for me or for
yeah, yeah for everybody.
Just yeah.
What was that experience?
Like you, uh, you press,repress record I know I was
trying to be sneaky, I so wewere trying to do this kind of
you know, after the podcast typeof thing to kind of debrief.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
No, you're good well, I will say for me this is one
of one of the best experiencesI've had in a long time because
it helped me reflect back on awonderful time when I was just,
you know, really growing as apsychiatric nurse, to have known
(37:48):
these wonderful leaders, tohave had classmates like Olga,
and it just brought back so manywonderful memories and I feel
so grateful to have had that inmy life.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I know it's the selfishness of me whenever I
start the podcast, asking a lotof people if they remember the
first time, because I think youknow, obviously we focus a lot
on the last time we see somebody, unfortunately, when they pass
or they transition and so orthey just kind of leave our
lives.
But you know that first time.
And again, I you know you seethis in movies called meet cutes
.
You know how people could?
We meet people all the time,but some people were drawn to,
(38:29):
some people we connect with andand we form lifelong
relationships with and with, andwe form lifelong relationships
with, and it's still a mysteryto me why we do that for some
people and other people.
You know, yeah, it was good tomeet you, but, moving on to
other things, so but thank youfor being one of those people,
kitty, that you continue to be apart of my life, and Sean and
Melissa too.
It's been a privilege to get tocontinue doing this type of
(38:51):
work, even though we still can'tget funding for it.
Maybe, who knows, in the future, but we'll get some ads, Maybe
we'll get Prozac to sponsor us,not after my comment I don't
think, but we'll see.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And you're absolutely right.
So much about the history islost, you know, because people
took it to the grave, and sopart of doing this has just
really triggered in me I need,we need to write.
(39:30):
We, being my colleagues whohelped to develop subspecialty
of geropsychiatric nursing, needto write down that history and
the early leaders and the peoplewhose shoulders we stood on,
because it'll be lost.
And I did have a similarexperience with does anybody
know Irene Burnside?
(39:50):
She was the grandmother of she.
She championed group therapyfor older adults who are
institutionalized, if you canbelieve that.
And she spoke at Iowa and I wasteaching a course in our
doctoral program at Iowa calledgeriatric mental health research
, and none of my students.
She came to the Knoxville VA totalk and none of my students
(40:13):
had even heard of her.
Came to the Knoxville VA totalk and none of my students had
even heard of her and I waslike horrified because she was
like she was like right up therewith peplum to me as a
gerostatic nurse and um, so uh,I ended up with one of my
doctoral students doing an oralhistory with her and writing, uh
, publishing about her manycontributions to nursing which I
(40:36):
don't know, if there's any.
I know her papers she gave toTexas Women's University, where
she got her doctorate at age 67,just having been recovered from
breast cancer.
Amazing woman.
But she was the one who saidthe elderly, even those in the
back wards of our psychiatricinstitutions, the asylums
(41:00):
essentially of the day, havesomething to say and we need to
let them say it.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Queen of agency.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Huh.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
The queen of agency.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
The queen of agency.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right, Dan.
You're talking about gettingProzac or Eli Lilly to sponsor
us.
If that happens, the day thathappens, the title of that
podcast needs to be called IronyDeficiency, irony Defined.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, I know Right, can you imagine?
All right, well, thanks,everybody Appreciate this time.
And yeah, we've got future.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I'll, I'll let you know, kitty when it's true, work
hard until those thoughts arefinally leaving so you can be
you.
They feel it.
Therefore, it's true Work harduntil those thoughts are finally
leaving so you can be you, godof discovery, identifying,
(42:04):
challenging your beliefs,reframing your mind.
yeah, just my take on things.
My answer number two welcomeback everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Uh, thank you so much for tuning in to Peplow's Ghost
.
This is going to be aninteresting episode.
I'm glad you tuned in.
I'm really excited about ourguest that I'm going to get into
introducing.
It's going to be a very funride to kind of learn a little
bit of history about Geropsych,the American Psychiatric Nurse
Association, and actually meet.
(00:45):
You have to talk to somebodywho's met Hildegard Peplau.
So, looking forward to thisepisode and really appreciate Dr
Kitty Buckwalter here sharingher experience.
I'm also joined, thankfully, byDr Sean Convoy from Duke
University and Dr MelissaChapman who's continuously
bringing in the non-nursing sowe don't get too jargony in our
(01:06):
conversation.
So thank you so much and again,thank you all for listening.
Tuning in, subscribing Haven'tgotten any comments, so please
feel free to leave comments forthe episode.
If you want to hear from someoneelse.
We're making out a list ofepisodes coming up for the rest
of the year, so let us know ifyou want to hear from somebody
else.
But let's get it to our honoredguest, dr Kathleen Kitty
(01:28):
Buckwalter.
She wanted a very short bio butI'm trying to do it.
But there's a lot to say aboutDr Buckwalter here.
So first off I'll say she gother master's degree in psych,
mental health nursing from theUniversity of Iowa.
I think last night when we weretalking you actually mentioned
that you had gone to school withsomeone here kind of locally
and we had her on the podcastlast week Chris McCormick-Pree.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Isn't that right?
Yes, I couldn't remember.
We were talking about VeraFrench.
Yes, and she's been at, yeah,yep.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So Chris was on the podcast last week and had a
great time.
You also got your PhD innursing from the University of
Illinois in Chicago.
Had a great time.
You also got your PhD innursing from the University of
Illinois in Chicago.
I'm not mentioning years, butthat was the time when there
wasn't many PhD programs innursing around, right?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
There were 10 in the whole country 10 in the whole
country.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, geez.
This may be out of date, butbest guess is you've written
extensively, obviously mostly ingeropsychiatry.
I got 250 articles, 80 bookchapters and eight edited books.
Very humbling to kind of readthat number.
It's very impressive.
2001, you were named theAmerican Psychiatric Nurse
(02:35):
Association's Excellent inResearch Award winner.
You were also named at theUniversity of Iowa as
Distinguished Alumni Award.
You are a fellow in theAmerican Academy of Nursing and
in 2020, were actually electedas a living legend, and that's
kind of a weird saying.
I always think it's like you'realive.
(02:58):
Congrats Always one of thosemorbid type of awards, but but
again, well deserved.
Only five, only five electedeach year for that.
So that's amazing.
So again, as I like to start thepodcast, usually since Kitty,
I've known you for a long time.
I think you were one of thepeople who wrote my
recommendations for my master'sprogram in psych, and so do you
(03:21):
remember the first time that wemet no in psych?
And so do you remember thefirst time that we met no?
So that's okay.
I, I, you know it's one ofthose things that it was
probably more impactful for me.
I, what I remember, and and thisis something that I want to
probably maybe apologize for,because I was.
I will say I was just a bitstarstruck, but we were.
What I remember is we were in aelevator in the college of
nursing at at Iowa, riding upand you were asking me about
(03:44):
things I was doing and kind ofyou know.
I think at that time you werewriting the recommendation for
my MSN program and things and so.
But I remember just kind of notkind of you know, not saying
much, just kind of averting myeyes, just kind of again a
little starstruck, and so I hopeI wasn't off-putting in any way
.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But no, and I'll tell you, dan.
That's exactly my reaction thefirst time I met Hilda.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Oh well, there's a good transition then, so why
don't we take it right there andthere it says that's the real
cool thing I think here is thatyou know our podcast.
Obviously Pep Lau's Ghost isnamed after Hildegard Pep Lau,
who's the mother of Psych,mental Health Nursing, and so to
(04:28):
have somebody on the podcastwho's actually seen her, talked
to her, I think that's what wewant to kind of hear from you.
So what was your experiencelike meeting her and getting to
know her?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, I'd like to use this opportunity to reflect on
the interactions I had with I'llcall her Hilda because that's
what we called her over manydecades and in many forms, and
the first was via letters, thenin person at meetings and
conferences, and then in somelittle-known literature where
(04:54):
her voice as an advocate andteacher came through.
And I say little-known becauseshe was anonymous, but the
author of the literature is afriend of mine, so I knew about
it.
I just want to share somepersonal anecdotes of maybe a
different side of Hilda, and notto negate but to amplify, I
(05:20):
think, the esteemed theorist and, as you said, mother of
psychiatric nursing.
But I want to present somedifferent sides of her, I think.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
The human side.
Yeah, human and fun, fun, yeah,you remember.
I mean you were mentioning shewas kind of an anonymous figure
there, especially in thebeginning, like probably all of
us at our inner infancyprofessionally gear there,
especially in the beginning,like probably all of us at our
inner infancy professionally.
What was something that drewyou to her?
Or was it just letter writing,like you said?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Well, yeah, I'll start with when I was a doctoral
student at the University ofIllinois, as you mentioned, so
this would have been the late70s, and by way of background.
So I was commuting by Greyhoundbus for four years from Iowa
because we couldn't afford asecond car and paying out of
state tuition in Illinois.
I couldn't afford an apartmentfor sure, and so Illinois was on
(06:18):
the quarter system and therewere 10 people in my class and
so every week for four years Ilived with a different classmate
, and one of those classmateswas Olga Church.
Olga Church became a nursehistorian.
She was on the faculty at theUniversity of Connecticut for
many years and I always lovedstaying at her house because she
lived in Evanston.
(06:39):
Her husband at the time was aprofessor at Northwestern, so it
was a little upscale from someof the other places with my
fellow doctoral students where Istayed.
But when it was my turn to stayat Olga's house and I would
take the 2 am bus in to get intoChicago by 8 and start classes
(07:01):
all day, so I was there Monday,tuesday, wednesday and then
Thursday after class I'd leaveand come back to Iowa City and
work 11 to 7 shifts at old psychhospital over the weekend.
Anyway, olga and I were towardsthe end of our coursework and
struggling to get ourdissertations off the ground and
(07:23):
when we were stuck, when we hadessentially writer's block, we
decided that we would writepapers about history of
psychiatric nursing, becausethat was her interest and her
dissertation actually was calledthe Noble Reform the emergence
of psychiatric nursing in the USfrom 1880 to 1963.
(07:48):
We were taking a course fromTeresa Christie, who was also on
the faculty at Iowa but came toIllinois to teach a nursing
history course, core course inour doctoral program.
So it was part of ourcoursework and we identified two
psychiatric nurses and this wasactually the first paper I ever
(08:11):
published.
The first and third papers Iever published were with Olga,
and the first one was Buckwalderand Church Euphemia, jane
Taylor, an uncommon psychiatricnurse.
You may not know Effie.
She was known as Effie Taylor,but she was the first nurse to
integrate psych nursing into thecurriculum, both at Johns
(08:36):
Hopkins and later at Yale, whereshe served as dean from 1934 to
1944.
1934 to 1944.
She was probably best known,however, for her presidency of
the International Council ofNurses from 1937 to 1947.
But she did some reallypioneering things in psych
nursing.
So we started out wanting tofind out about her and to write
(09:01):
about her.
So that was the very firstpaper we published in
Perspectives in PsychiatricNursing and that was, oh, 1979,
we published that.
The second paper was Church andBuckwaller, 1980, harriet
Bailey, a psychiatric nurse,pioneer also in Perspectives in
Psychiatric Care, and she wasthe nurse who wrote the first
(09:24):
psychiatric nursing textbookcalled Nursing Mental Disease in
1920.
And I want to read to you from apaper that Olga published in
2000 in Japna, the Journal ofthe Psychiatric Nurses
Association, and the title ofthe paper is Hildegard E
(09:47):
Peplau's Leadership andAchievements in the Advance of
Psychiatric Nursing the RightPerson in the Right Time and
Place.
So she's describing our effortsto develop these papers, to
develop these papers.
And the second paragraph inthis paper is called
(10:08):
Explorations into theDevelopment of Psychiatric
Nursing and I'm quoting here.
Now, 20 years ago, two eagerand enthusiastic doctoral
students that was, olga andmyself gathered their courage
together to write a letter ofinquiry to Dr Peplau in search
of information for an article.
They together to write a letterof inquiry to Dr Peplau in
search of information for anarticle they hoped to write
(10:28):
Within days.
We received it was actually six, because it was three pages,
both sides handwritten pages,full of suggestions, a list of
nine different sources andresources, complete with names
and addresses.
She ended this encouragingresponse with the comment wish I
could be more helpful.
(10:49):
And then Olga, being ahistorian, has cited that as
personal communication.
October 12th 1979, letter toBuckwalder in church from HE
Peplow, found in the author'scollection.
Because I gave the letter toOlga, knowing her career sites,
I wish now I'd kept a copy formyself, but I didn't.
(11:11):
And then Olga's comment and Iwould echo this is I have since
found that was a typicalresponse from this wise, wise
and generous, scholarly andcomplex woman.
And so that is really how Olgagot her start on a lifelong
career as a nurse.
(11:31):
Historian focused a lot onpeplau and he birds as a
psychiatric nursing.
But also it was my firstencounter with Peplau.
We wrote a lot of others and Iwant to other famous people at
the time who had interacted witheither Harriet Bailey or Effie
(11:55):
Taylor on the East CoastTeachers College, rutgers really
the bastions of psychiatricnursing at the time Phipps
Clinic, johns Hopkins and Yalethe biggest and best response we
got was Peplau and it shaped mein many ways.
(12:15):
First of all it started mylifelong kind of awe of her as a
person, because here she wasreally at the peak of her career
in the 70s and taking the timeto not just write back a letter
but to send resources and thenames and the addresses so we
(12:36):
could.
It would be easiest for us togo on and do our research.
So that had a professionalimpression on me, but also a
personal impression that overthe years I've heard from
students lots of times, some ofthem ridiculous, like send me
everything you've ever writtenabout dementia or that sort of
(12:58):
thing.
But I've tried to be kind andgenerous and to emulate Dr
Peplau in being responsive tostudents because you you never
know what kind of impact good orbad that may have.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
That's awesome.
So now.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I just want to read a little bit from the first pages
of our article on HarrietBailey, which we published in
Perspectives in 1980.
So we were having a terribletime finding out any information
about Harriet Bailey.
We went to the Maine NursesAssociation because she had
(13:38):
practiced in Maine.
No record of her existence.
We looked in the New York Timesand her obituary.
We consulted people, includingTeresa Christie, who gave us
access to proceedings of theNational League for Nursing
Education, and we just hit onedead end after another, in which
(14:02):
you know you've got enough ofthose as a doctoral student
anyway.
But undaunted and I'm startingto quote here now, and this is
written by Olga and myself,despite the constraints of time
and money to which we weresubject as doctoral candidates,
our search was underway.
Olga actually traveled to theEast Coast, to the National
(14:27):
Nursing Archives of BostonUniversity, as I said, the Maine
State Nurses Association.
All kind of dead ends.
Then we launched thiscomprehensive letter writing
campaign to early leaders inpsychiatric nursing and nursing
education, as well as tolibrarians and activists.
(14:47):
And here's the key part At thesuggestion of Dr Hildegard E
Peplau and this was that lettershe wrote to us that I talked
about earlier we submittedrequests for information to
various nursing journals.
Together, some 20 individualsand institutions were queried,
and it was based on thosesuggestions from PEPLOW that we
(15:08):
were able to gather sufficientinformation to be able to
publish those two early articles.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
You know, and this is great.
I mean I hate to kind ofdisrupt your flow right now, but
you know, as you were, as youwere describing that article
about how she described Hilda,you know, as complex.
That's an interesting term Iguess I hadn't thought of and
maybe you're going to get tothat.
But I'm wondering, melissa orSean, do you have any questions
(15:40):
at this time at this?
Maybe kind of take a little.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Dan, you go to your question.
I like the direction you'retaking in terms of complexity
and I've got one to follow upafterwards.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Okay, I can respond to why I think she used the word
complex.
It's because she was, on theone hand, a brilliant
theoretician, but she was verypragmatic in terms of her
application.
It was a theory that you could,as a psychiatric nurse, you
(16:11):
could relate to, you could use.
It made sense, and so there wasa complexity in that, also in
her personality.
She had a very commandingpresence.
I mean, like I said, I wasawestruck for a while, but she
also could be goofy and I'llrelate some incidents of that
(16:35):
are not really goofy, but shecould have fun and laugh and she
was generous and kind, but shecould put you down.
She was generous and kind butshe could put you down.
If you and I observed this inconferences and stuff and if you
ask a question that she feltwas irrelevant or inappropriate,
(17:00):
she would say you know you'renot thinking right here, You're
not reflecting on what thepatient said to you as a nurse
or that sort of thing.
So she was kind and generous,but she also had very high
standards, so she didn't sufferany fools.
That's exactly right, yeah, Iadmire that quality.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I mean that's yeah, that's not bad.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Complexity comes in.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Thank you for that perspective.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Yeah, kitty, I'll ask .
I'm fascinated.
You're going to call her Hilda,but I'm still going to call her
Dr Feplow.
I'm trying to get you toperhaps read her mind a little
bit.
What do you think she'd sayLike, do you think she's
satisfied with the current stateof both psychiatric nursing as
well as advanced practicepsychiatric mental health
nursing at present?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
the psychiatric, mental health person in the
present, I say no, it's too muchon.
Um, okay, you're depressed?
Uh, what's the bestantidepressant we can prescribe
for you?
There's not enough of thetherapeutic interpersonal work
that she uh championed going ontoday.
Part of that is reimbursementissues, time constraints for
(18:17):
doing therapy.
But I think she would say, guys, you're missing the boat.
And one of the things I'm goingto talk about at the very end
is how she still influenced myprofessional life in a paper
that Tess Judge Ellis and Ipublished in November of 2024.
(18:37):
It was really on duly certifiednurse practitioners, primary
care and psych, and it was in acase study with substance use in
a housing first environment,and what we did was to talk
about the combination ofpsychiatry and medicine and
(18:59):
nursing and how, in this casestudy, yes, there were physical
things, stranger roles and inher theory and how blending the
two, I believe, leads to optimaloutcomes Excellent.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
Yeah, so you're telling me that Pep Lau's ghost
is not happy right now, right?
Speaker 3 (19:38):
I would think not, and she would probably be the
first if she were able to tellus.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
So thank you very much for that.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, so I didn't want to get in your flow.
I think you're getting intomore kind of anecdotes and kind
of describing her a little bit.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Quick anecdotes here.
So my next in-person encounterwith her was at Rush and this
was in the late 1980s.
So I had finished my master'sin psych mental health nursing
at Iowa, got my doctorate in1980 at Illinois, in 1980 at
(20:20):
Illinois and then from 83 to 86,I did a career development
award at a ward at NIMH ingeropsychiatric nursing and it
was following that that I and itwas a budding, as you heard
last night subspecialty but nota whole lot going on.
But at Rush Karen Babbage wasthere.
You know that name from history.
Oh she, she along with GraceSills, one of the big founders
(20:43):
of APNA, and she was head ofpsych nursing at Rush at the at
the time and she and I becamefast friends at the time.
And she and I became fastfriends and I also went to Rush
a lot because they had a settingcalled JR Bowman Healthcare
(21:06):
Center for the Elderly, so itwas a geropsych mini hospital
within the Rush complex andthere I could practice and do
research in my subspecialty andKaren facilitated that and I,
and so I was at Rush a lot andLuther Crispin was the head of
the program at Rush himself,kind of one of those godlike
(21:27):
figures who did so much fordiversity within the nursing
profession.
But he hosted at Rush apsychiatric nursing conference
and Hilda was one of theinvitees who spoke and that sort
of thing, and it was not astand at the podium speak to a
(21:52):
crowd of thousands.
It was a fairly intimatesetting.
It was a select invitee listand we were around a table and
then some chairs in a room.
So it was intimate actually.
And the anecdote I want toshare with you is I always found
Hilda to be very poised in hercomportment and demeanor, but at
(22:19):
lunch she and Luther sat nextto each other and we're telling
stories about their early yearsof being psychiatric nurses,
like in the 1930s and stuff, andtalking about the horrible
things that we visited uponpatients and hypoglycemic shock,
(22:47):
insulin therapy, hydrotherapy,electric shock and psychosurgery
were their discussion and theywere absolutely laughing out
loud, just almost kind of likehooting, about what we used to
do to people and how long youknow we've come a long way, baby
(23:08):
, sort of thing, and brought itback to the conference and the
ladies and what we were doingnow.
Back to the conference and theladies and what we were doing
now.
But I had never seen her withan esteemed colleague, the two
of them just laughing andreminiscing about their early
days.
And I tell you I would haveabsolutely killed to have had a
(23:31):
tape recorder hidden in myblouse or something so I could
have recorded their conversation.
I took a few notes and that'swhere I it was just what they
were talking about.
So I'm confident in theveracity of hypoglycemic shock
and insulin therapy and all thatsort of stuff that they were
talking about.
But it was the first time I'dreally seen a different side of
(23:55):
her and I wanted to share thatwith you.
So she could really let herhair down, so to speak, and she
was comfortable with her closecolleagues.
And that leads me to theincident with Grace Grace Sills,
who was head of psych nursingat Ohio State University and one
(24:16):
of the founders of APNAFabulous person, psych nurse
herself, just I don't know, justso pleasant and enjoyable a
person to be around.
So she and Hilda were fastfriends and they had been both
of them.
Of course Hilda was influentialin both the ANA American Nurses
(24:40):
Association and APNA, but Gracewas primarily focused on APNA
and in the early years.
I was very involved in my earlyyears in APNA and I was I think
I was head of the researchcommittee.
I was certainly on the newlyestablished research committee
(25:01):
and we were, you know,struggling.
We wanted to raise money for agrants.
You know that.
Not, I'm not talking hundredsof thousands, I'm talking 3000
or, you know, three, maybe tofive, to get something going in
terms of nursing research.
I also started the firstgeropsychiatric interest group
(25:25):
within APNA many, many years ago, but anyway, hilda and Grace
had been gambling in Las Vegason vacation.
Grace had been gambling in LasVegas on vacation and I'm not
sure which one, but I think itwas.
Hilda hit the jackpot and I'mtalking big bucks here, like
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I don't know the exact amount.
(25:51):
But again, this gets back tothat characterization of her as
a generous person.
One of the things that they didat like a plenary session of
the next APNA was to say we'regoing to match, dollar for
dollar, everyone who contributesto ANA and in particular the
research fund, and so.
But they did it with likecostumes and music and streamers
(26:13):
and confetti and it made it ajoyous occasion.
Another anecdote I guess thatreflects the not so serious side
of both of them, but theadvocacy do good inside for
nursing of both Grayson andHildegard.
So if you they say, whateveryou want to contribute, hold it
(26:35):
up and we'll come around andwe'll match.
So if you'd hold up a $20 bill,they'd come around, take your
$20 bill and they had like a bagor something, they'd put
another 20 with it and that wentin the APNA fund.
So that was something that wasreally memorable.
I don't know how many peopleeven remember that conference.
I can't tell you the exact date, but I sure remember that event
(26:57):
because they made it thatmemorable.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Did you?
You said, was Hildegard dressedup?
Do you remember the costume shewas wearing?
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I remember Grace's big hat on and that sort of
thing.
I don't remember hers.
OK and that sort of thing.
I don't remember hers Okay, butit was.
I wish I had paid betterattention, but at the time I
wasn't thinking about that.
Good question though.
(27:32):
So the next thing I wanted tosay about Hilda reflects that
even in later life and I'mtalking, oh, 90s, 1990s, so
within 10 years of her deaththat she remained an advocate
(27:52):
and a teacher.
She remained an advocate and ateacher, and to support that, I
want to share with you notdetails, because Hilda wished to
remain anonymous in this, butshe shared with a colleague of
(28:13):
mine who is a neuroscience nurseher experiences of having a
stroke in the early 90s and theauthor, my friend.
The author wrote thesereflections chronicle the
experience of a retired nurseeducator.
That was Hilda, who had astroke and shared her
(28:35):
experiences with the author.
And then she talks about.
The format of this paperalternates between the first
person remembrances of the nursewho had a stroke and the
author's analysis of the nurse'sexperience, and so, although
she was never named here, it isher, and she gives a critique of
(28:59):
her care, not all of itflattering in her first-person
narrative, in fact, in somecases highly critical, as she
was initially.
So this was 1990, 91, aroundthere about eight or nine years
(29:19):
before she died.
She was angry.
She was angry about having astroke and she sought to
understand what happened to herand she felt she wasn't
well-informed and she didn'tthink that nursing played a
large enough role in hereducation as a stroke patient
and in helping to create a pathfor her recovery.
(29:42):
She did a lot of reading on herown and what exercises to do
and that sort of thing, so shewas critical of that.
Probably the most importantthing she said in this article
was recounting her feelings thather perceptions were not
considered important.
And you know where that comesfrom Always listen to the
(30:05):
patient and what they have tosay.
So it was like well, sheexpounded this theoretical
framework early on.
Now she was living it personally, but as a patient who's and as
a knowledgeable patient whoseexperiences weren't being
(30:27):
listened to or considered.
She also used this experienceto develop a concept called I
(30:53):
don't know if you was her leftside or right side that was
affected was doing and how wasshe able to clasp her hands
together, and what apsychologically exhausting
experience this was for patientsand how the nurses weren't even
aware of this.
They didn't ask about it.
Nurses and physicians both theydidn't ask about it nurses and
(31:15):
physicians both and how thataffected the recovery process of
people who'd had a stroke.
So I think she essentially andthe author just confirms that
she came up with what we wouldcall now a new nursing diagnosis
.
If you believe in Nanda, nickand Knock, then the exhausting
(31:38):
effect of vigilance would be anursing diagnosis and I think
one that is perhaps translatableto a lot of chronic illnesses
to people who have.
I mean you look at long COVIDnow the exhausting effects of
that.
So it's a remarkable paper.
(31:58):
I think it's little read.
It wasn't published in apopular journal that even in her
later years, in her eighthdecade of life, that she was
(32:19):
still observing nurse-patientinteractions, still commenting
upon them, still teaching andstill being an advocate for
patients.
So that's why I wanted to bringup this article, because I don't
think it's well-known.
Have any of you heard of it?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
No, no, yeah, so.
So, Kenny, thank you again.
I mean I think this shows agreat arc of our person that
again we we try to honor withthis podcast.
And yeah, I just anymore, ifit's OK, maybe we can kind of.
Sean, do you have have any?
Speaker 3 (32:53):
or, unless you got any questions before we get time
, uh, can I just wrap up withone thing after you give give
your question, go ahead, seansure I don't have a question,
but I just have a comment.
Speaker 4 (33:04):
I'm so grateful that you shared the story about dr
peplau's gambling exploits.
Yeah, we're telling the story.
Yeah, it's kind of fitting tohighlight it, because we hit the
lottery through her advocacyand stewardship of our yes,
absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
And and she, she shared her bounty in so many
ways.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Yeah, um, you know, as someone, external, as someone
external to the field, and justthinking about my own field,
hearing the power, power of likethese stories and anecdotes and
how like these professionalorganizations came to be, it's
just mind blowing because ithappens so often and then we
forget our histories, eventhough it's really not that long
(33:45):
of a history.
So thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh, you're welcome.
It was my pleasure and I justif I can have a concluding
comment is there time, dan, forthat?
I guess my point would beHildegard Peplau.
Dr Peplau has influenced myprofessional life for decades,
starting in the 70s.
(34:08):
Judge Ellis was the first authoron I was her co-author.
That was published just lastNovember in the Journal of Nurse
Practitioners and it wasentitled A Duly Certified Nurse
(34:30):
Practitioner in a Housing FirstLocation.
Nurse practitioner in a housingfirst location, where we give
examples of PEPLAW's nursingroles in a housing first clinic.
So how did the case studythat's presented exemplify the
stranger role or the teachingrole or that sort of thing?
So for me she has been aprofessional presence in my life
(34:54):
since I was a doctoral studentwhen she wrote back to us and
supplied such wonderfulinformation that really helped
us get our first publicationsuntil the present of her seminal
(35:21):
theory to the work that's beingdone today in really unique
settings by psychiatric nursesand different populations.
And she probably, I mean,wasn't thinking about housing
first because it didn't existthen for homeless and substance
using chronically mentally illpeople, homeless and substance
using chronically mentally illpeople.
But it's still relevant todayand that's just amazing to me,
(35:50):
and so I feel so grateful tohave met her, to have learned
from her and to be able to applythat learning in my own career.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, kitty, so much forsharing your experiences.
I, you know the the.
The phrase that kept rollingthrough my head is you never
know.
When you create a memory, it'syou know, these, these
interactions that you have, andagain, with you and Hildegard
Peplau, I mean, there's probablyhundreds, if not thousands, of
other types of things that thetentacles of her influence you
know continue to.
There's types of things thatthe tentacles of her influence
you know continue to, um,perservate throughout our
(36:16):
profession, which is, again, asyou said, I, I, you know I think
we're all probably in agreementhere that she would be a little
bit ashamed of where ourprofession is going right now as
psych, mental health nurses, um, and it's kind of draw towards
medical model and uh, and it'soveremphasis, but uh, hopefully
she won't be or she would not beupset about this podcast and
how we try to pay homage to it.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Maybe we should all get sweatshirts that say bring
back.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Peplow Well we're working on an article.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Maybe that's the title too.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
What would Peplow say ?
Yeah, we get little wristbands.
That's what we need too, soawesome.
Well, thank you again for thoselistening and please stay tuned
.
We've got uh future episodescoming ahead when uh exciting
new people um get to learn abouttheir practice and such.
But again, thank you very muchfor uh dr kitty buck walter for
joining us and uh tune in nexttime.
(37:05):
We'll have another episode soon, take care I'm honored to have
been invited.
Thanks, after dark withpeplow's ghost for me or for
yeah, yeah for everybody.
Just yeah.
What was that experience?
Like you, uh, you press,repress record I know I was
trying to be sneaky, I so wewere trying to do this kind of
you know, after the podcast typeof thing to kind of debrief.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
No, you're good well, I will say for me this is one
of one of the best experiencesI've had in a long time because
it helped me reflect back on awonderful time when I was just,
you know, really growing as apsychiatric nurse, to have known
(37:48):
these wonderful leaders, tohave had classmates like Olga,
and it just brought back so manywonderful memories and I feel
so grateful to have had that inmy life.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I know it's the selfishness of me whenever I
start the podcast, asking a lotof people if they remember the
first time, because I think youknow, obviously we focus a lot
on the last time we see somebody, unfortunately, when they pass
or they transition and so orthey just kind of leave our
lives.
But you know that first time.
And again, I you know you seethis in movies called meet cutes
.
You know how people could?
We meet people all the time,but some people were drawn to,
(38:29):
some people we connect with andand we form lifelong
relationships with and with, andwe form lifelong relationships
with, and it's still a mysteryto me why we do that for some
people and other people.
You know, yeah, it was good tomeet you, but, moving on to
other things, so but thank youfor being one of those people,
kitty, that you continue to be apart of my life, and Sean and
Melissa too.
It's been a privilege to get tocontinue doing this type of
(38:51):
work, even though we still can'tget funding for it.
Maybe, who knows, in the future, but we'll get some ads, Maybe
we'll get Prozac to sponsor us,not after my comment I don't
think, but we'll see.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And you're absolutely right.
So much about the history islost, you know, because people
took it to the grave, and sopart of doing this has just
really triggered in me I need,we need to write.
(39:30):
We, being my colleagues whohelped to develop subspecialty
of geropsychiatric nursing, needto write down that history and
the early leaders and the peoplewhose shoulders we stood on,
because it'll be lost.
And I did have a similarexperience with does anybody
know Irene Burnside?
(39:50):
She was the grandmother of she.
She championed group therapyfor older adults who are
institutionalized, if you canbelieve that.
And she spoke at Iowa and I wasteaching a course in our
doctoral program at Iowa calledgeriatric mental health research
, and none of my students.
She came to the Knoxville VA totalk and none of my students
(40:13):
had even heard of her.
Came to the Knoxville VA totalk and none of my students had
even heard of her and I waslike horrified because she was
like she was like right up therewith peplum to me as a
gerostatic nurse and um, so uh,I ended up with one of my
doctoral students doing an oralhistory with her and writing, uh
, publishing about her manycontributions to nursing which I
(40:36):
don't know, if there's any.
I know her papers she gave toTexas Women's University, where
she got her doctorate at age 67,just having been recovered from
breast cancer.
Amazing woman.
But she was the one who saidthe elderly, even those in the
back wards of our psychiatricinstitutions, the asylums
(41:00):
essentially of the day, havesomething to say and we need to
let them say it.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
Queen of agency.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Huh.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
The queen of agency.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
The queen of agency.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right, Dan.
You're talking about gettingProzac or Eli Lilly to sponsor
us.
If that happens, the day thathappens, the title of that
podcast needs to be called IronyDeficiency, irony Defined.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, I know Right, can you imagine?
All right, well, thanks,everybody Appreciate this time.
And yeah, we've got future.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I'll, I'll let you know, kitty when it's true, work
hard until those thoughts arefinally leaving so you can be
you.
They feel it.
Therefore, it's true Work harduntil those thoughts are finally
leaving so you can be you, godof discovery, identifying,
(42:04):
challenging your beliefs,reframing your mind.
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