January 10, 2025 • 28 mins
This episode focuses on the necessity of integrating psychotherapy into mental health treatment, as highlighted by Dr. Allyson Neal. Through real-life experiences, she advocates for the vital role therapy plays in effective patient care and encourages nurses to lead the way in this essential domain.
• Dr. Neal's journey from pediatric nursing to psychotherapy
• The misconception that psychotherapy is secondary to medications
• Importance of addressing root causes of mental distress
• Case study highlighting successful therapeutic intervention
• Challenges faced by mental health providers in therapy delivery
• Encouragement for nurses to advocate for therapy training
• Vision for future collaboration among mental health professionals
• Empowering patients to demand needed therapy services
Dr. Allyson Neal
aneal7@utk.edu
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, so I think we're recording.
Welcome, welcome, welcomeeveryone, good to see you back
in 2025 to Pep Lau's Ghost, thepodcast that really highlights
the use of psychotherapy, andagain, really appreciate those
of you who continue to tune in.
I was just looking at the stats.
We have people from all acrossthe world, mostly United States,
(00:24):
but it's great to kind of getthat reach out there for other
countries as well.
But I am joined with myesteemed colleagues and
definitely have a wonderfulguest, dr Allison Neal, who I'll
get into real quick.
But just to kind of introducewho's here Dr Sean Convoy from
Duke, dr Kendra Delaney fromVanderbilt and then Melissa
(00:45):
Chapman, who is our non-expert,who keeps us kind of on track
basically.
So she is a program evaluatorfrom Minnesota and always great
to have her.
So let me get into a quickintroduction with Dr Allison
Neal.
She is a clinical associateprofessor and assistant dean to
the graduate program at theUniversity of Tennessee, so very
(01:09):
impressive to have a dean here.
I don't know about you guys,but whenever I say the word dean
a little, you know, cold goesup my back a little bit, like
you have to go to theprincipal's office type of thing
.
So it's great to have a dean onour side, right, that's always
good to kind of be on that sideof things, but that's very
impressive.
And she's also the PMHNPcoordinator.
I should have definitely saidthat too.
So you have a lot of hats atUniversity of Tennessee.
(01:30):
So very, very accomplished, sovery impressed.
I also see that she has aprobably a part-time practice
still at Helen Ross McNabbCommunity Mental Health Clinic
in Tennessee as well, and sostill seeing patients, which is
kind of what we all do, kind ofpractice, what we preach in a
lot of ways.
So but, dr Neal, you have yourDNP from the University of
(01:51):
Tennessee, msn from EmoryUniversity, bsn from University
of Tennessee, chattanooga, andthen an ADN from East Tennessee
State University, and you areboth certified as a psych mental
health nurse practitioner aswell as a psych mental health
certified nurse specialist.
So again, thank you very muchfor being here.
You have a lot of differentroles and leadership
(02:14):
opportunities as well.
You're the American PsychiatricNurse Association
representative to the NationalTask Force, as well as on the
LACE Committee.
So again, very impressed withthat.
And then, big news out of thegate.
We just talked about thisbefore we started recording, but
you are officially thepresident-elect of the American
Psychiatric Nurse Association.
So welcome, welcome, welcome tothe pod, and I get the
(02:39):
privilege of asking kind of thefirst question when did you
first get interested inpsychotherapy, kind of what drew
you to psychotherapy and doingit professionally.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, dan, thank you for that.
Even before I became apsychiatric nurse practitioner,
I found a huge interest inpsychotherapy.
I started out as an advancedpractice nurse, as a pediatric
nurse practitioner.
My master's is from EmoryUniversity, was well-educated
and trained.
I worked in pediatric primarycare for about six years and
(03:08):
what I saw was I would see likean ear infection, a strep throat
, and then my child's gettingthrown out of school or ADHD is
not under control.
And so I started my journeywith just mental health in being
a pediatric nurse practitioner.
Then I moved into pediatricneurology where I would see
(03:29):
children that had seizures butalso had ADHD, or who had a
traumatic brain injury ormigraines, that suffered from
anxiety and depression, and Iknew as a PMP I could start some
low-level medicines, but Ineeded to refer children on for
psychotherapy.
I have always known that.
(03:52):
You know, medicines have theirpart to play, but therapy,
psychotherapy is healing.
And so from that journey Idecided I needed to go back to
school to become a psychiatricmental health MP.
I decided I needed to go backto school to become a
psychiatric mental health MP.
So my education for my DNP ledme to UT Health Science Center,
which is in Memphis and thatprogram was just extremely
(04:14):
strong on yes, here's how youassess, yes, here's how you
diagnose.
These are medicines and therapy.
Psychotherapy is just asimportant.
We had rotations inpsychotherapy, we had to do
simulation with psychotherapyand that's when it really became
ingrained with me, all of myprofessors in that program.
(04:35):
It was never you could domedications or therapy, it was
always therapy.
And then if you needed to domedications, that's okay also,
but you needed psychotherapy.
You know, we know fromneuroscience that therapy is
healing.
So that was my.
My first was as a pediatricnurse practitioner, but it was
(04:55):
really ingrained in me in mydoctoral program.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I loved how you said that that psychotherapy is
healing and it's such a thingthat doesn't get enough emphasis
and yeah, I mean we talk aboutthis a lot too.
Unfortunately, it getsrelegated to a complimentary or
alternative.
I constantly say with mystudents it's not complimentary,
it's like you just said yeah,it should be primary.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sean, you're on mute, sorry.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Thank you very much.
I had a dog barking behind me,dr Neal I.
You know, dan, I asked you aquestion kind of more generally
I'm going to ask you a littlebit more refined focus question
that really thinks about afoundational experience with
psychotherapy that you know.
When you did it you said, oh myGod, this works, and it just
got you more excited.
(05:46):
So was there a certainexperience or set of experiences
that kind of served as both ananchor and a lighthouse for your
current practice as apsychotherapist?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Sure Thanks, sean.
Probably the time in realpractice after I'd gotten out of
school, passed my certificationexam and was working with real
patients.
I remember having a family thatthis child had significant ADHD
, was on pretty good dose ofmedicine and had tried many
(06:18):
different medicines, but therewere just things that were still
missing and the family was veryfrustrated, the school was
frustrated, the kid wasfrustrated, and so my first
really aha moment was workingwith this family and this child
about how he felt about school.
(06:40):
He felt like it was such aburden, so we started just
unpacking what that felt like itwas such a burden.
So we started just unpackingwhat that felt like.
When we really got to thebottom of that he, he absolutely
had adhd, but he had a comorbiddiagnosis of anxiety as well
that no one had recognized me aswell.
Um, of course you know medicinescan help that, but what we
(07:00):
really worked on was somesomatic-based therapies to help
him overcome his feelings ofanxiety before he went to school
, when something didn't go rightduring school and when he was
at home working on homework.
So I started just talking tothe family about some things we
could do and I probably evenmyself thought, oh gosh, I'm not
(07:24):
sure this is going to work.
This family is really at atipping point and they need
something.
But they hung in there.
I gave the kids some cognitivebehavioral therapy worksheets to
take home to work on, told themthis was not homework, this was
fun stuff.
We worked on a pause button andwe worked on some real somatic
(07:45):
based therapy of when yourstomach feels like that or when
you feel heavy in your chestwhat can we do about that?
Because he had been justrunning, he felt like he needed
to escape.
So you know that landed him inthe principal's office and the
guidance counselor's officeeverywhere but the classroom,
which is where he needed to be.
So we worked on some cognitivebased therapy.
So we worked on somecognitive-based therapy.
(08:05):
We also worked on somesomatic-based therapy.
Together had them come back ina month.
Of course, things were notperfect, but things had improved
to the point where the familysaid we need more of this.
And that was my.
It worked.
It worked this time we canbuild on this.
And that was when I said I'mstarting there from here on out.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So, dr Neal, that's absolutely awesome and I want to
kind of bring some attention towhat you said to the novice and
advanced beginners in ourprofession that are listening to
this podcast right now, whichis that psychotherapy sometimes
can provide psychodiagnosticclarification.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
I've seen it over and over andover.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Cool Kendra.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think
really stood out about what youwere just saying to me as well
is that, you know, I think whenwe get to the point sometimes
with our patients, when we'reworking with them, that it's
just like we're feelingdesperate, the patient's feeling
desperate, their supportsystems are feeling desperate
and I think that, unfortunately,what's what can happen
sometimes is that's when peoplejust start throwing medications
(09:15):
and adding and polypharmacybecomes worse and worse and
we're and we're not reallygetting anywhere.
We're just increasing the riskof our prescribing and therapy
sometimes I think gets lost isbecause it's quote unquote
slower, when really it's.
Sometimes what we do need isthat pause button.
So I'd be curious, you know, ifyou could talk a little bit
(09:36):
more about in your experiencewhen you're noticing, hey, I'm
feeling the energy of thepatient and their support
systems is getting moreescalated and more elevated and
they're wanting the quick fix.
But what I know is really goingto help is that pause and is
really circling back to the youknow, the foundations of therapy
.
How do you communicate thatwith your patients and their
(09:58):
families to help them get onboard?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And Kendra.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
I attempt to be really honestand transparent with any client
patient I'm working with, fordiagnosing, for if we're going
to do further testing,medications, therapy, whatever
we're doing.
So I always try to start outwith.
You know, this is not a problemthat happened yesterday.
(10:23):
You've been dealing with thisfor a while.
Quick fixes never work.
We need to talk about the brainand what's going on in the
brain and the role thatpsychotherapy can play.
And, yes, we're in this for thelong haul.
I'm willing to hang in therewith you if you'll hang in there
with me and we will work tohave a positive outcome.
(10:45):
But it's not going to be quick.
So I usually ask them so howlong have you you've been
dealing with this?
I've never had somebody say oh,it's been a week or it's been
two weeks, it's been six months,three years, my entire life.
So a problem of that magnitudeis going to take a little bit of
time to fix.
So we all know, as providers,really working with
(11:08):
psychotherapy for three monthsmakes all the difference in the
world and I rarely see someonewho's not been dealing with
their what they would considertheir major problems for less
than three months.
So I really try to talk aboutit's a journey.
We're going to make small steps, we're going to make positive
steps and I guarantee that wewill get some positive outcome.
(11:31):
And I really talk a lot aboutthe brain and what happens in
the brain and how we can havenew connections that are made
and that for people who've beendealing with things for a long
time, I try to instill hope thatjust because this has been your
past doesn't mean that it'syour future.
We can change your path, butit's going to take some work.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I love that.
I think you know I find thatwhen I'm working with patients,
I take a similar approach ofjust saying hey, I know it's
really hard and it makes a lotof sense that you want to feel
better quickly, because whowouldn't?
And you're human and sufferingis, you know, our human, as
humans were designed to, to tryto move out of suffering and it
(12:15):
didn't take us forever to gethere, so it's not, it's your.
It took us a long time to gethere, so it's going to take some
time to get out.
So thank you so much.
I think that's such animportant thing, especially for
novices, to be reminded of,because as providers again as
humans we we so desperately wantto support our patients, but I
think I'm always reminding mystudents that we don't want to
get wrapped up in our patient'senergy.
(12:36):
It's our job to be the ones whoare remaining calm and looking
at the bigger picture in thelong-term trajectory.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Oh, kendra, I agree 100%.
I think another thing thathelps is setting goals.
Always try to set a couple ofshort-term goals and a couple of
long-term goals, and I startevery session with checking in
on how we're doing on ourshort-term goals, how we're
doing toward our short termgoals, how we're doing toward
our long term goals, and it'sjust, you can almost feel the
energy lift in the room when youagree that you've met a short
(13:07):
term goal, and I think thatpositive builds on positive, and
so I think setting of goals isvery important as well.
And if you set a goal thatneeds to be changed, I mean I
tell my patients all the timethat's life, life changes on a
dime.
If that's this goal that wesaid, if that's not what you
needed this time and it'ssomething is changing something
(13:29):
different, let's change the goal.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, I love that there's.
I think one of my favoritethings in practice is being able
to say to my patients hey,let's pause and look at all of
the things that you'veaccomplished since we've been
working together and the amountof times that you just see the
light bulb going off in thepatient's mind because they're
already looking to the nextthing, the next place they want
to be, the next accomplishment,what they want to have, and then
(13:53):
for them to say, wow, I reallyreally have done a lot.
I just had a patient I wasworking with where we just
started doing trauma worktogether in January of 2024.
And as we were wrapping up theyear, you know a very complex
childhood attachment trauma andhas really done unbelievable
work to unburden a lot of thisand, you know, was kind of just
(14:18):
okay, well, I still need to dothat, I still need to that.
I said let's pause and look atthat and you know, to see her
have this moment, she just hadthis huge beaming smile and it's
so rewarding to say, likeyou're the one who did that,
like we get to be the, you know,a, a container to help navigate
that, but to really be able tosay, hey, like, let's reflect on
(14:38):
what you did is so cool.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That is great.
I love to hear that you'redoing that.
That's such an important thingto do.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
I'm going to jump in here next.
Everyone on this call, exceptfor myself, as Dan had noted, is
a nurse, and so I'mparticularly curious how you see
nursing being a leader inperforming psychotherapy, since
there are certainly otherprofessionals that engage in
psychotherapy.
Like how does nursing lead?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
That's a very important question because we're
seeing more and more providersof mental health who are trying
to slip into that shorter visits, medication management only,
and are not having good outcomes.
We all know that you cannothave good outcomes if you do
(15:33):
mental health that way, andthere's a lot of pressure for
psychiatric mental health nursepractitioners who work in large
organizations that do not getmuch say-so over how their
patients are scheduled.
I think this is a wonderfulplatform that we all need to be
(15:55):
talking about more, stickingtogether more on bringing it to
our legislators, bringing it tothose who educate insurance
companies to pay for theservices that are important.
So nurses have a very, veryimportant part to play in that,
and nurses are often morepolitical savvy than some other
(16:19):
professional groups with usingtheir voices.
I've been told by legislatorsover and over is it's the
personal stories that matter tous.
So I think any time that anurse can sit in front of your
legislator, you know that youare their constituent and they
represent you, know that you aretheir constituent and they
represent you.
(16:39):
I recommend you bring forthpersonal stories of your clients
, your patients, and why this isimportant.
And then the other thing I thinknurses need to do as leaders is
for our accrediting bodies thataccredit schools and colleges
of nurses.
(16:59):
They need to hold programsaccountable for psychotherapy.
There is a small little box onthe form that we all have to
check that says, yes, thisstudent has been exposed to two
types of therapy.
It's important that they'reheld accountable to that, and if
there are any students outthere or future students
listening, I would suggestbefore you decide to go to a
(17:21):
school to get your degree andbecome a psych, mental health
nurse practitioner, you look tosee if they cover all the points
they should cover, andpsychotherapy is one of them.
If you are going to go to aschool that does not put your
teeth into psychotherapy, that'snot the school you need to go
to.
You're doing yourself adisservice and the profession
and every client that you willever serve from here on out.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Thank you, allison, that was great.
Since this is an audio podcast,I'll just share that.
Sean was doing Raise the Roofso, yes, he was keeping it very
young.
Hopefully we're attracting someof those 20 millennials, you
know, kind of into the podcastwith that, but but that was so
awesome.
Yeah, thank you.
Well said, alice, and I thinkit's yeah, it's, it's, yeah.
It needs to be said, it needsto be said over and over again.
It reminds me that.
(18:06):
You know, I think through thispodcast and through our
conversations we've had, youknow, I've kind of I've got a
psychotherapy course I'm havingthis spring and one of my
assignments is to go out andfind a podcast that PMHNPs talk
about psychotherapy.
Obviously I give them thispodcast, but I'm really curious
to have the students go out andsee if there are any others.
I mean, it's anybody elsetalking about psychotherapy and
(18:28):
how nursing is involved withthat?
Because we do have such a richhistory with that, you know,
going back to at least the 1950s.
So I mean, yeah, we need tokeep that fire burning, like we
talked about.
So so my next question takes alittle bit of a negative turn,
but that's, that's okay.
We need to kind of look on theother side of the coin right so
do you, do you have any concernsabout psych, mental health
(18:48):
nurses using psychotherapy?
do you does anything kind ofcome to mind when you know,
thinking about that, anyconcerns come up to mind?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I guess concerns would be that the schools or
colleges of nursing that are notreally holding their students
accountable for psychotherapy.
That is a concern.
I don't have any concerns withnurses out there providing
psychotherapy.
I think all the qualityprograms say to students as we
(19:17):
do, this is your baseline, it'sup to you to go get more
training and certifications.
So I don't have any concernsthere.
And I think the other bigconcern are organizations that
have really leaned into thesemedication management visits
(19:39):
only.
I think that's perfectly fineif you've got enough therapists
in your organization thatpatients can have a therapist as
well.
But most organizations do not.
And when we have patientswaiting three, six, nine months
for a therapy appointment,that's not okay.
So my concern is don't becomplacent, don't say, yeah, I'm
just going to be a medmanagement provider.
(20:01):
Don't do that.
You have so much more to offerand the clients and patients of
the world need us.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Hey, dr Neal, I'm going to ask another question
and I'm going to follow it witha shameless plug.
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
I'm ready.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
So, as the president-elect for AP&A, what
do you see are some of thepossible barriers to fortifying
that psychotherapy skill setwithin the advanced practice
psychiatric mental healthnursing role?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
psychiatric mental health nursing role.
Well, the APNA is getting readyto come out with a statement on
the importance of psychotherapyand the importance of the
education and training forpsychotherapy.
So our organization is verybought into.
This is important.
I think sometimes some of ournewer providers that get out and
(20:56):
see that it sometimes isdifficult to get credentialed
for an insurance company toprovide psychotherapy.
I think that hurts.
But I think if there's enoughof us like us here that believe
in this, we'll come alongsidenewer providers and mentor them.
That this is worth your time.
(21:17):
It is worth the outcomes thatyou will have for your patients,
that you need to do this.
I only see ups from that.
I don't see any downsides, Ionly see upsides.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Great.
So here comes the shamelessplug.
Are you ready for?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
it, I'm ready.
I can't wait to hear this Sean.
So here comes the shamelessplug.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Are you ready for it?
I'm ready.
I can't wait to hear this.
Sean, wouldn't it be amazing ifwe had, like the opportunity,
to bring together the presidentof APNA and the president of
ISPN to perhaps have aconversation about how we would
combine our resources to have astronger message between the two
national leaders as it relatesto psychiatric nursing and
advanced practice psychiatricmental health nursing?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I think that's a wonderful idea.
I do not know why that cannothappen.
I think that can happen.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You heard it here first, everybody.
We're holding all fourpresidents accountable to that,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
We both, both organizations have.
Organizations have the samewants and needs for the people
we serve, and psychotherapy isat the top of that, and we're
both just could not be morepleased to be associated with
either organization, and I thinkwe'll make this happen.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right Pressure's on you too, dan Well, I was going
to say this is maybe a catch-upfor those of you who don't know,
and maybe just kind of jumpingin this episode.
I've mentioned that obviouslyDr Allison Neal is the president
elect of APNA, but I will.
I am the president elect ofInternational Society of Psych
Nurses.
So, yeah, I agree with you,allison.
I think you know we we do servethe same people, you know, and
(22:48):
our constituents in bothorganizations, I think, want
this.
So I think you know there ispower in numbers.
So, yeah, it's going to begreat and I know Sean will
definitely hold my feet to thefire, and you know, and so I'm
looking forward to kind of doingsomething that could benefit
both of organizations and, again, the professional community at
(23:09):
large.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Kendra, I think you're next.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
All right.
Well, you know, one questionthat I had.
You know, obviously we're bothin Tennessee and so this is
something I think we see as ayou know throughout Tennessee,
but I really we're seeing itnationally, as you know, in
rural communities.
One of the big you knowfeedback that are I often hear
is that the access to psychmental health nurse
practitioners is so limited, orany psychiatric specialist is so
(23:38):
limited, that to have a psychNP use their time doing therapy
is harmful to the communitybecause it limits the number of
patients who can access the careof a psych NP.
What would your response be tothat?
Who can access the care of apsych NP?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What would your response be to that?
It would be that if there aretherapists available and can
come alongside and practicetogether holistically, I think
that is a wonderful marriage andwould work.
But we both know that that'snot how it works in the real
world.
One of the biggest barrier forour state, kendra, like so many
(24:17):
other states, is full practiceauthority.
We practice under thecollaboration for us and other
states' supervision of aphysician, which really limits
our practice.
I am hopeful that one day we'llbecome one of those states
practice.
I am hopeful that one day we'llbecome one of those states I
think we're up to maybe what 26now that have full practice
(24:38):
authority, but that we will jointhose ranks and being able to
provide the care there that ourclients and patients in
Tennessee truly need.
So do we only need medmanagement?
No.
Do we need psychotherapy?
Yes.
Do we need them together?
Absolutely.
The research is very clear thattogether they provide the best
benefits for our patients and Iwould not agree with, if you can
(25:03):
only have one provider, thatthey're only going to provide
medications.
I don't think that's treatingour patients holistically like
we need to treat them.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I totally agree, so thank you.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
All right.
So kind of a summing it upquestion here what do you see as
the future of psychotherapy forPMHNP Dr Neal?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Well, melissa, I think that our patients, clients
, are becoming more vocal overthe last few years.
I am hopeful that they will beable to demand from their
insurance providers or MedicareMedicaid that this is important
(25:50):
service for them.
I think that that will helpelevate and the stories
obviously help elevate that.
This is how I received help andthis is how I got better.
The more and more that thathappens, the more that nurses
use their voices, the morenurses that we can get into
Congress, the more that ISPANand APNA work together, I think
(26:14):
that the future of psychotherapyis very bright.
I think we all have to push this.
I think it's difficult tosometimes to keep up the fight,
but I think there's enough of uslike-minded providers that
we're never going to let thisdie, and it is our basis.
This is how you know, psychCNSs were the first to do this
(26:40):
kind of thing and as we morphedinto that and an MP role doesn't
mean we should lose any of thethings that we can provide,
especially when they're sohelpful for our clients.
So I think the future is verybright.
I think we all have work to doto get there, but I think that
we can get it done.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Very well said.
Yeah, that's inspiring, I mean,it is one of those things.
It reminds me.
You do hear that every once ina while, right, you hear someone
coming in with a sore throat.
Sometimes people do ask fornurse practitioners
no-transcript their time alittle bit more and provide them
(27:22):
, you know, a little bit betterbedside manner or whatever you
want to call it.
But I think you know, to reallyhighlight what you said earlier
too is, I mean, I think this isan evidence-based approach but
it also feeds into ourassessment.
And that's kind of where youstarted talking about your
example of that person.
And we probably have all hadthat experience where we're
treating a kid as ADHD and youcan see it out in the waiting
(27:44):
room.
You don't need to make a fulldiagnostic assessment.
You can see the ADHD all overthem.
But there is somethingunderneath that sometimes and
that anxiety which can drivethat, and then treatments for
ADHD sometimes conflict withthat anxiety treatment.
So therapy is going to be thatchoice and those somatic
therapies you mentioned to youknow, helping address some of
their physical sensation whichcan be, you know, really
(28:05):
problematic with those anxietysymptoms.
So so thank you again, drAllison Neal, for joining us.
It's been a pleasure to kind ofget to know you a little bit
and share your inspiration andyour passion for psychotherapy.
Thank you all for listening tous.
Please make sure to like,subscribe and comment to the
podcast.
We are jam-packed in 2025.
(28:27):
We have a bunch of peoplecurrently scheduled to be here
on the podcast, so come backweekly catch up if you need to,
but and also reach out to us Letus know how we're doing.
We'd love to hear from you andget some feedback on what you
want to hear and what sort ofthings you want us to talk about
next.
So thank you so much and we'llsee you next time, in the next
episode.
All right, so I think we're recording.
Welcome, welcome, welcomeeveryone, good to see you back
in 2025 to Pep Lau's Ghost, thepodcast that really highlights
the use of psychotherapy, andagain, really appreciate those
of you who continue to tune in.
I was just looking at the stats.
We have people from all acrossthe world, mostly United States,
(00:24):
but it's great to kind of getthat reach out there for other
countries as well.
But I am joined with myesteemed colleagues and
definitely have a wonderfulguest, dr Allison Neal, who I'll
get into real quick.
But just to kind of introducewho's here Dr Sean Convoy from
Duke, dr Kendra Delaney fromVanderbilt and then Melissa
(00:45):
Chapman, who is our non-expert,who keeps us kind of on track
basically.
So she is a program evaluatorfrom Minnesota and always great
to have her.
So let me get into a quickintroduction with Dr Allison
Neal.
She is a clinical associateprofessor and assistant dean to
the graduate program at theUniversity of Tennessee, so very
(01:09):
impressive to have a dean here.
I don't know about you guys,but whenever I say the word dean
a little, you know, cold goesup my back a little bit, like
you have to go to theprincipal's office type of thing
.
So it's great to have a dean onour side, right, that's always
good to kind of be on that sideof things, but that's very
impressive.
And she's also the PMHNPcoordinator.
I should have definitely saidthat too.
So you have a lot of hats atUniversity of Tennessee.
(01:30):
So very, very accomplished, sovery impressed.
I also see that she has aprobably a part-time practice
still at Helen Ross McNabbCommunity Mental Health Clinic
in Tennessee as well, and sostill seeing patients, which is
kind of what we all do, kind ofpractice, what we preach in a
lot of ways.
So but, dr Neal, you have yourDNP from the University of
(01:51):
Tennessee, msn from EmoryUniversity, bsn from University
of Tennessee, chattanooga, andthen an ADN from East Tennessee
State University, and you areboth certified as a psych mental
health nurse practitioner aswell as a psych mental health
certified nurse specialist.
So again, thank you very muchfor being here.
You have a lot of differentroles and leadership
(02:14):
opportunities as well.
You're the American PsychiatricNurse Association
representative to the NationalTask Force, as well as on the
LACE Committee.
So again, very impressed withthat.
And then, big news out of thegate.
We just talked about thisbefore we started recording, but
you are officially thepresident-elect of the American
Psychiatric Nurse Association.
So welcome, welcome, welcome tothe pod, and I get the
(02:39):
privilege of asking kind of thefirst question when did you
first get interested inpsychotherapy, kind of what drew
you to psychotherapy and doingit professionally.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, dan, thank you for that.
Even before I became apsychiatric nurse practitioner,
I found a huge interest inpsychotherapy.
I started out as an advancedpractice nurse, as a pediatric
nurse practitioner.
My master's is from EmoryUniversity, was well-educated
and trained.
I worked in pediatric primarycare for about six years and
(03:08):
what I saw was I would see likean ear infection, a strep throat
, and then my child's gettingthrown out of school or ADHD is
not under control.
And so I started my journeywith just mental health in being
a pediatric nurse practitioner.
Then I moved into pediatricneurology where I would see
(03:29):
children that had seizures butalso had ADHD, or who had a
traumatic brain injury ormigraines, that suffered from
anxiety and depression, and Iknew as a PMP I could start some
low-level medicines, but Ineeded to refer children on for
psychotherapy.
I have always known that.
(03:52):
You know, medicines have theirpart to play, but therapy,
psychotherapy is healing.
And so from that journey Idecided I needed to go back to
school to become a psychiatricmental health MP.
I decided I needed to go backto school to become a
psychiatric mental health MP.
So my education for my DNP ledme to UT Health Science Center,
which is in Memphis and thatprogram was just extremely
(04:14):
strong on yes, here's how youassess, yes, here's how you
diagnose.
These are medicines and therapy.
Psychotherapy is just asimportant.
We had rotations inpsychotherapy, we had to do
simulation with psychotherapyand that's when it really became
ingrained with me, all of myprofessors in that program.
(04:35):
It was never you could domedications or therapy, it was
always therapy.
And then if you needed to domedications, that's okay also,
but you needed psychotherapy.
You know, we know fromneuroscience that therapy is
healing.
So that was my.
My first was as a pediatricnurse practitioner, but it was
(04:55):
really ingrained in me in mydoctoral program.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I loved how you said that that psychotherapy is
healing and it's such a thingthat doesn't get enough emphasis
and yeah, I mean we talk aboutthis a lot too.
Unfortunately, it getsrelegated to a complimentary or
alternative.
I constantly say with mystudents it's not complimentary,
it's like you just said yeah,it should be primary.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sean, you're on mute, sorry.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Thank you very much.
I had a dog barking behind me,dr Neal I.
You know, dan, I asked you aquestion kind of more generally
I'm going to ask you a littlebit more refined focus question
that really thinks about afoundational experience with
psychotherapy that you know.
When you did it you said, oh myGod, this works, and it just
got you more excited.
(05:46):
So was there a certainexperience or set of experiences
that kind of served as both ananchor and a lighthouse for your
current practice as apsychotherapist?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Sure Thanks, sean.
Probably the time in realpractice after I'd gotten out of
school, passed my certificationexam and was working with real
patients.
I remember having a family thatthis child had significant ADHD
, was on pretty good dose ofmedicine and had tried many
(06:18):
different medicines, but therewere just things that were still
missing and the family was veryfrustrated, the school was
frustrated, the kid wasfrustrated, and so my first
really aha moment was workingwith this family and this child
about how he felt about school.
(06:40):
He felt like it was such aburden, so we started just
unpacking what that felt like itwas such a burden.
So we started just unpackingwhat that felt like.
When we really got to thebottom of that he, he absolutely
had adhd, but he had a comorbiddiagnosis of anxiety as well
that no one had recognized me aswell.
Um, of course you know medicinescan help that, but what we
(07:00):
really worked on was somesomatic-based therapies to help
him overcome his feelings ofanxiety before he went to school
, when something didn't go rightduring school and when he was
at home working on homework.
So I started just talking tothe family about some things we
could do and I probably evenmyself thought, oh gosh, I'm not
(07:24):
sure this is going to work.
This family is really at atipping point and they need
something.
But they hung in there.
I gave the kids some cognitivebehavioral therapy worksheets to
take home to work on, told themthis was not homework, this was
fun stuff.
We worked on a pause button andwe worked on some real somatic
(07:45):
based therapy of when yourstomach feels like that or when
you feel heavy in your chestwhat can we do about that?
Because he had been justrunning, he felt like he needed
to escape.
So you know that landed him inthe principal's office and the
guidance counselor's officeeverywhere but the classroom,
which is where he needed to be.
So we worked on some cognitivebased therapy.
So we worked on somecognitive-based therapy.
(08:05):
We also worked on somesomatic-based therapy.
Together had them come back ina month.
Of course, things were notperfect, but things had improved
to the point where the familysaid we need more of this.
And that was my.
It worked.
It worked this time we canbuild on this.
And that was when I said I'mstarting there from here on out.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So, dr Neal, that's absolutely awesome and I want to
kind of bring some attention towhat you said to the novice and
advanced beginners in ourprofession that are listening to
this podcast right now, whichis that psychotherapy sometimes
can provide psychodiagnosticclarification.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Absolutely A hundred percent.
I've seen it over and over andover.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Cool Kendra.
Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I think
really stood out about what youwere just saying to me as well
is that, you know, I think whenwe get to the point sometimes
with our patients, when we'reworking with them, that it's
just like we're feelingdesperate, the patient's feeling
desperate, their supportsystems are feeling desperate
and I think that, unfortunately,what's what can happen
sometimes is that's when peoplejust start throwing medications
(09:15):
and adding and polypharmacybecomes worse and worse and
we're and we're not reallygetting anywhere.
We're just increasing the riskof our prescribing and therapy
sometimes I think gets lost isbecause it's quote unquote
slower, when really it's.
Sometimes what we do need isthat pause button.
So I'd be curious, you know, ifyou could talk a little bit
(09:36):
more about in your experiencewhen you're noticing, hey, I'm
feeling the energy of thepatient and their support
systems is getting moreescalated and more elevated and
they're wanting the quick fix.
But what I know is really goingto help is that pause and is
really circling back to the youknow, the foundations of therapy
.
How do you communicate thatwith your patients and their
(09:58):
families to help them get onboard?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And Kendra.
I think that's a very goodpoint.
I attempt to be really honestand transparent with any client
patient I'm working with, fordiagnosing, for if we're going
to do further testing,medications, therapy, whatever
we're doing.
So I always try to start outwith.
You know, this is not a problemthat happened yesterday.
(10:23):
You've been dealing with thisfor a while.
Quick fixes never work.
We need to talk about the brainand what's going on in the
brain and the role thatpsychotherapy can play.
And, yes, we're in this for thelong haul.
I'm willing to hang in therewith you if you'll hang in there
with me and we will work tohave a positive outcome.
(10:45):
But it's not going to be quick.
So I usually ask them so howlong have you you've been
dealing with this?
I've never had somebody say oh,it's been a week or it's been
two weeks, it's been six months,three years, my entire life.
So a problem of that magnitudeis going to take a little bit of
time to fix.
So we all know, as providers,really working with
(11:08):
psychotherapy for three monthsmakes all the difference in the
world and I rarely see someonewho's not been dealing with
their what they would considertheir major problems for less
than three months.
So I really try to talk aboutit's a journey.
We're going to make small steps, we're going to make positive
steps and I guarantee that wewill get some positive outcome.
(11:31):
And I really talk a lot aboutthe brain and what happens in
the brain and how we can havenew connections that are made
and that for people who've beendealing with things for a long
time, I try to instill hope thatjust because this has been your
past doesn't mean that it'syour future.
We can change your path, butit's going to take some work.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I love that.
I think you know I find thatwhen I'm working with patients,
I take a similar approach ofjust saying hey, I know it's
really hard and it makes a lotof sense that you want to feel
better quickly, because whowouldn't?
And you're human and sufferingis, you know, our human, as
humans were designed to, to tryto move out of suffering and it
(12:15):
didn't take us forever to gethere, so it's not, it's your.
It took us a long time to gethere, so it's going to take some
time to get out.
So thank you so much.
I think that's such animportant thing, especially for
novices, to be reminded of,because as providers again as
humans we we so desperately wantto support our patients, but I
think I'm always reminding mystudents that we don't want to
get wrapped up in our patient'senergy.
(12:36):
It's our job to be the ones whoare remaining calm and looking
at the bigger picture in thelong-term trajectory.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Oh, kendra, I agree 100%.
I think another thing thathelps is setting goals.
Always try to set a couple ofshort-term goals and a couple of
long-term goals, and I startevery session with checking in
on how we're doing on ourshort-term goals, how we're
doing toward our short termgoals, how we're doing toward
our long term goals, and it'sjust, you can almost feel the
energy lift in the room when youagree that you've met a short
(13:07):
term goal, and I think thatpositive builds on positive, and
so I think setting of goals isvery important as well.
And if you set a goal thatneeds to be changed, I mean I
tell my patients all the timethat's life, life changes on a
dime.
If that's this goal that wesaid, if that's not what you
needed this time and it'ssomething is changing something
(13:29):
different, let's change the goal.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, I love that there's.
I think one of my favoritethings in practice is being able
to say to my patients hey,let's pause and look at all of
the things that you'veaccomplished since we've been
working together and the amountof times that you just see the
light bulb going off in thepatient's mind because they're
already looking to the nextthing, the next place they want
to be, the next accomplishment,what they want to have, and then
(13:53):
for them to say, wow, I reallyreally have done a lot.
I just had a patient I wasworking with where we just
started doing trauma worktogether in January of 2024.
And as we were wrapping up theyear, you know a very complex
childhood attachment trauma andhas really done unbelievable
work to unburden a lot of thisand, you know, was kind of just
(14:18):
okay, well, I still need to dothat, I still need to that.
I said let's pause and look atthat and you know, to see her
have this moment, she just hadthis huge beaming smile and it's
so rewarding to say, likeyou're the one who did that,
like we get to be the, you know,a, a container to help navigate
that, but to really be able tosay, hey, like, let's reflect on
(14:38):
what you did is so cool.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That is great.
I love to hear that you'redoing that.
That's such an important thingto do.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
I'm going to jump in here next.
Everyone on this call, exceptfor myself, as Dan had noted, is
a nurse, and so I'mparticularly curious how you see
nursing being a leader inperforming psychotherapy, since
there are certainly otherprofessionals that engage in
psychotherapy.
Like how does nursing lead?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
That's a very important question because we're
seeing more and more providersof mental health who are trying
to slip into that shorter visits, medication management only,
and are not having good outcomes.
We all know that you cannothave good outcomes if you do
(15:33):
mental health that way, andthere's a lot of pressure for
psychiatric mental health nursepractitioners who work in large
organizations that do not getmuch say-so over how their
patients are scheduled.
I think this is a wonderfulplatform that we all need to be
(15:55):
talking about more, stickingtogether more on bringing it to
our legislators, bringing it tothose who educate insurance
companies to pay for theservices that are important.
So nurses have a very, veryimportant part to play in that,
and nurses are often morepolitical savvy than some other
(16:19):
professional groups with usingtheir voices.
I've been told by legislatorsover and over is it's the
personal stories that matter tous.
So I think any time that anurse can sit in front of your
legislator, you know that youare their constituent and they
represent you, know that you aretheir constituent and they
represent you.
(16:39):
I recommend you bring forthpersonal stories of your clients
, your patients, and why this isimportant.
And then the other thing I thinknurses need to do as leaders is
for our accrediting bodies thataccredit schools and colleges
of nurses.
(16:59):
They need to hold programsaccountable for psychotherapy.
There is a small little box onthe form that we all have to
check that says, yes, thisstudent has been exposed to two
types of therapy.
It's important that they'reheld accountable to that, and if
there are any students outthere or future students
listening, I would suggestbefore you decide to go to a
(17:21):
school to get your degree andbecome a psych, mental health
nurse practitioner, you look tosee if they cover all the points
they should cover, andpsychotherapy is one of them.
If you are going to go to aschool that does not put your
teeth into psychotherapy, that'snot the school you need to go
to.
You're doing yourself adisservice and the profession
and every client that you willever serve from here on out.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Thank you, allison, that was great.
Since this is an audio podcast,I'll just share that.
Sean was doing Raise the Roofso, yes, he was keeping it very
young.
Hopefully we're attracting someof those 20 millennials, you
know, kind of into the podcastwith that, but but that was so
awesome.
Yeah, thank you.
Well said, alice, and I thinkit's yeah, it's, it's, yeah.
It needs to be said, it needsto be said over and over again.
It reminds me that.
(18:06):
You know, I think through thispodcast and through our
conversations we've had, youknow, I've kind of I've got a
psychotherapy course I'm havingthis spring and one of my
assignments is to go out andfind a podcast that PMHNPs talk
about psychotherapy.
Obviously I give them thispodcast, but I'm really curious
to have the students go out andsee if there are any others.
I mean, it's anybody elsetalking about psychotherapy and
(18:28):
how nursing is involved withthat?
Because we do have such a richhistory with that, you know,
going back to at least the 1950s.
So I mean, yeah, we need tokeep that fire burning, like we
talked about.
So so my next question takes alittle bit of a negative turn,
but that's, that's okay.
We need to kind of look on theother side of the coin right so
do you, do you have any concernsabout psych, mental health
(18:48):
nurses using psychotherapy?
do you does anything kind ofcome to mind when you know,
thinking about that, anyconcerns come up to mind?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I guess concerns would be that the schools or
colleges of nursing that are notreally holding their students
accountable for psychotherapy.
That is a concern.
I don't have any concerns withnurses out there providing
psychotherapy.
I think all the qualityprograms say to students as we
(19:17):
do, this is your baseline, it'sup to you to go get more
training and certifications.
So I don't have any concernsthere.
And I think the other bigconcern are organizations that
have really leaned into thesemedication management visits
(19:39):
only.
I think that's perfectly fineif you've got enough therapists
in your organization thatpatients can have a therapist as
well.
But most organizations do not.
And when we have patientswaiting three, six, nine months
for a therapy appointment,that's not okay.
So my concern is don't becomplacent, don't say, yeah, I'm
just going to be a medmanagement provider.
(20:01):
Don't do that.
You have so much more to offerand the clients and patients of
the world need us.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Hey, dr Neal, I'm going to ask another question
and I'm going to follow it witha shameless plug.
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
I'm ready.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
So, as the president-elect for AP&A, what
do you see are some of thepossible barriers to fortifying
that psychotherapy skill setwithin the advanced practice
psychiatric mental healthnursing role?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
psychiatric mental health nursing role.
Well, the APNA is getting readyto come out with a statement on
the importance of psychotherapyand the importance of the
education and training forpsychotherapy.
So our organization is verybought into.
This is important.
I think sometimes some of ournewer providers that get out and
(20:56):
see that it sometimes isdifficult to get credentialed
for an insurance company toprovide psychotherapy.
I think that hurts.
But I think if there's enoughof us like us here that believe
in this, we'll come alongsidenewer providers and mentor them.
That this is worth your time.
(21:17):
It is worth the outcomes thatyou will have for your patients,
that you need to do this.
I only see ups from that.
I don't see any downsides, Ionly see upsides.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Great.
So here comes the shamelessplug.
Are you ready for?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
it, I'm ready.
I can't wait to hear this Sean.
So here comes the shamelessplug.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Are you ready for it?
I'm ready.
I can't wait to hear this.
Sean, wouldn't it be amazing ifwe had, like the opportunity,
to bring together the presidentof APNA and the president of
ISPN to perhaps have aconversation about how we would
combine our resources to have astronger message between the two
national leaders as it relatesto psychiatric nursing and
advanced practice psychiatricmental health nursing?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I think that's a wonderful idea.
I do not know why that cannothappen.
I think that can happen.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You heard it here first, everybody.
We're holding all fourpresidents accountable to that,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
We both, both organizations have.
Organizations have the samewants and needs for the people
we serve, and psychotherapy isat the top of that, and we're
both just could not be morepleased to be associated with
either organization, and I thinkwe'll make this happen.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Right Pressure's on you too, dan Well, I was going
to say this is maybe a catch-upfor those of you who don't know,
and maybe just kind of jumpingin this episode.
I've mentioned that obviouslyDr Allison Neal is the president
elect of APNA, but I will.
I am the president elect ofInternational Society of Psych
Nurses.
So, yeah, I agree with you,allison.
I think you know we we do servethe same people, you know, and
(22:48):
our constituents in bothorganizations, I think, want
this.
So I think you know there ispower in numbers.
So, yeah, it's going to begreat and I know Sean will
definitely hold my feet to thefire, and you know, and so I'm
looking forward to kind of doingsomething that could benefit
both of organizations and, again, the professional community at
(23:09):
large.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Kendra, I think you're next.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
All right.
Well, you know, one questionthat I had.
You know, obviously we're bothin Tennessee and so this is
something I think we see as ayou know throughout Tennessee,
but I really we're seeing itnationally, as you know, in
rural communities.
One of the big you knowfeedback that are I often hear
is that the access to psychmental health nurse
practitioners is so limited, orany psychiatric specialist is so
(23:38):
limited, that to have a psychNP use their time doing therapy
is harmful to the communitybecause it limits the number of
patients who can access the careof a psych NP.
What would your response be tothat?
Who can access the care of apsych NP?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What would your response be to that?
It would be that if there aretherapists available and can
come alongside and practicetogether holistically, I think
that is a wonderful marriage andwould work.
But we both know that that'snot how it works in the real
world.
One of the biggest barrier forour state, kendra, like so many
(24:17):
other states, is full practiceauthority.
We practice under thecollaboration for us and other
states' supervision of aphysician, which really limits
our practice.
I am hopeful that one day we'llbecome one of those states
practice.
I am hopeful that one day we'llbecome one of those states I
think we're up to maybe what 26now that have full practice
(24:38):
authority, but that we will jointhose ranks and being able to
provide the care there that ourclients and patients in
Tennessee truly need.
So do we only need medmanagement?
No.
Do we need psychotherapy?
Yes.
Do we need them together?
Absolutely.
The research is very clear thattogether they provide the best
benefits for our patients and Iwould not agree with, if you can
(25:03):
only have one provider, thatthey're only going to provide
medications.
I don't think that's treatingour patients holistically like
we need to treat them.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I totally agree, so thank you.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
All right.
So kind of a summing it upquestion here what do you see as
the future of psychotherapy forPMHNP Dr Neal?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Well, melissa, I think that our patients, clients
, are becoming more vocal overthe last few years.
I am hopeful that they will beable to demand from their
insurance providers or MedicareMedicaid that this is important
(25:50):
service for them.
I think that that will helpelevate and the stories
obviously help elevate that.
This is how I received help andthis is how I got better.
The more and more that thathappens, the more that nurses
use their voices, the morenurses that we can get into
Congress, the more that ISPANand APNA work together, I think
(26:14):
that the future of psychotherapyis very bright.
I think we all have to push this.
I think it's difficult tosometimes to keep up the fight,
but I think there's enough of uslike-minded providers that
we're never going to let thisdie, and it is our basis.
This is how you know, psychCNSs were the first to do this
(26:40):
kind of thing and as we morphedinto that and an MP role doesn't
mean we should lose any of thethings that we can provide,
especially when they're sohelpful for our clients.
So I think the future is verybright.
I think we all have work to doto get there, but I think that
we can get it done.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Very well said.
Yeah, that's inspiring, I mean,it is one of those things.
It reminds me.
You do hear that every once ina while, right, you hear someone
coming in with a sore throat.
Sometimes people do ask fornurse practitioners
no-transcript their time alittle bit more and provide them
(27:22):
, you know, a little bit betterbedside manner or whatever you
want to call it.
But I think you know, to reallyhighlight what you said earlier
too is, I mean, I think this isan evidence-based approach but
it also feeds into ourassessment.
And that's kind of where youstarted talking about your
example of that person.
And we probably have all hadthat experience where we're
treating a kid as ADHD and youcan see it out in the waiting
(27:44):
room.
You don't need to make a fulldiagnostic assessment.
You can see the ADHD all overthem.
But there is somethingunderneath that sometimes and
that anxiety which can drivethat, and then treatments for
ADHD sometimes conflict withthat anxiety treatment.
So therapy is going to be thatchoice and those somatic
therapies you mentioned to youknow, helping address some of
their physical sensation whichcan be, you know, really
(28:05):
problematic with those anxietysymptoms.
So so thank you again, drAllison Neal, for joining us.
It's been a pleasure to kind ofget to know you a little bit
and share your inspiration andyour passion for psychotherapy.
Thank you all for listening tous.
Please make sure to like,subscribe and comment to the
podcast.
We are jam-packed in 2025.
(28:27):
We have a bunch of peoplecurrently scheduled to be here
on the podcast, so come backweekly catch up if you need to,
but and also reach out to us Letus know how we're doing.
We'd love to hear from you andget some feedback on what you
want to hear and what sort ofthings you want us to talk about
next.
So thank you so much and we'llsee you next time, in the next
episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.