July 14, 2025 • 32 mins
Dr. Beth Phoenix, the 2023 APNA Psych Nurse of the Year and APNA past president, shares her insights on psychotherapy in nursing practice, challenging traditional views and advocating for a more flexible, pragmatic approach that extends beyond the conventional "50-minute hour" model.
• Group therapy empowers patients through connections with each other rather than solely through therapist interventions
• The impact of universality—discovering you're not alone with your problems—is profoundly therapeutic in group settings
• 69% of advanced practice nurses combine psychotherapy with medication management
• Nursing leads in flexible application of psychotherapeutic techniques across various healthcare settings
• Psychotherapy doesn't require a full 50-minute session—effective techniques can be integrated into briefer encounters
• The "fixer" mentality from acute care nursing must transition to a facilitator role in psychiatric practice
• Advanced practice psychiatric nurses should claim more ownership over their psychotherapy skills
• Evidence-based psychotherapies have a strong track record and should remain integral to psychiatric nursing practice
Subscribe to Peplau's Ghost for more conversations exploring the intersection of nursing practice and psychotherapy.
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Yeah, just my take on things.
My answer to number twodecrease until they cease.
It's not a discovery,identifying a challenge in your
(00:27):
beliefs or framing your mind.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I think we're recording.
Welcome everybody to Pep Lau'sGhost Another exciting episode
here.
As we move through the summer,hopefully you're enjoying some
warm weather wherever you may be, but really excited to have our
next guest here, dr BethPhoenix, who's going to be here
(00:52):
and sharing her views on usingpsychotherapy and kind of her
general experiences.
And such Really pleasure tohave Dr Beth Phoenix here on
this podcast.
She's, you know, one of thetrailblazers as I may hopefully
not offensive, but a livinglegend in my opinion within the
psych mental health nursingcommunity.
I took a couple notes before wegot going.
So she was the president of theAPNA, the American Psychiatric
Nurse Association.
(01:13):
That was back in 2012 to 2013.
So did some amazing thingsthere and has actually in 2023,
I forgotten, it's amazing, Ithought this was just last year,
but 2023, she was nominated andvoted for to be the APNA Psych
Nurse of the Year.
That's huge.
(01:33):
I mean just to kind of think ofall the psych nurses, you were
number one in 2023.
So great.
And again, hopefully.
If you don't know Dr BethPhoenix, maybe you can look up
her bio.
She's very well known aroundthe University of California,
san Francisco, where she did alot of her training, was a
program director there for awhile too.
So again, thank you very much,dr Beth Phoenix, for joining us,
(01:53):
and I'll just kind of get usgoing and talking about our
favorite subject, psychotherapy.
So when did you get interestedin psychotherapy as a concept or
as a skill?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
When did you start to notice that was something you
wanted to devote part of yourmost of your life to.
So, you know, my history was isa little different than a lot of
people you've interviewed onthis podcast, because when I was
in graduate school in the late80s, the director of my program
was, you know, I was in the CNSprogram and the director of my
(02:31):
program did not think thatpsychiatric CNSs should be
trained in psychotherapy.
She thought that, you know,nursing was focusing too much on
what she called the worriedwell.
You know, nursing was focusingtoo much on what she called the
(02:55):
worried well, and that shereally felt like we needed to
focus more on people with severeand persistent mental illness.
So the focus of our trainingwas really much more on
psychosocial rehabilitation forpeople with severe and
persistent mental illness mentalillness and so, you know, a big
part of that was, you know,group.
It delivered in groups.
So that's when I really firstgot really interested in groups
(03:16):
and, you know, started tounderstand how important it was
for nurses to have skills inleading groups.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Great.
Do you know what was aboutgroups that was so fascinating
or you know, or was just part ofthe program and you just got
kind of got the bug and it bityou.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, you know, what I really liked about, you know,
use of therapeutic groups wasthat you know, the therapist
didn't have to do everything.
I mean, a lot of thetherapeutic effect of groups is
from group members'relationships with each other
and what they learn from eachother and how they bond with
(04:01):
each other and how they bondwith each other, and I just
found that to be kind of a moreempowering, you know, form of
support for people, because as agroup leader, most of what
you're doing is facilitatingpeople's relationships with each
other.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So that was something that really appealed to me and
kind of helping people benefitfrom the wisdom of the group.
Yeah, no, that's great.
I don't know, and I forgot toagain to introduce my co, I
(04:43):
guess my co-facilitators as wellDr Sean Convoy from Duke and Dr
Kate Molino from alsoCalifornia, university of
California, san Francisco.
But yeah, you know, before Ibecame a nurse, I was a program
director for the partialhospital program, which was
primarily group based, and and Iagree that was that's always
been the relief of of doinggroup therapy is that you don't
have to have all the answers andprobably somebody within the
group is going to have a betteranswer and a better way of
(05:04):
saying it than ever I could.
So I just need to make sure Idon't get in the way of the
process and I really like theidea of not.
Always in my program I told mystudents you're not a group
leader, you're a groupfacilitator.
I like that idea.
You don't lead the group, youjust facilitate that
conversation and, like I said,just try to get out of the way
when you can.
So all right, I'll turn it overto Sean.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, great opportunity.
We were talking about thisbefore we went live about.
You know how we wouldnecessarily operationally define
psychotherapy.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I do, you know, because I think people have a
lot of assumptions aboutpsychotherapy.
I mean, I think people think 50minute hour, they tend to think
of individual therapy kind ofexclusively.
So I decided to do a little AIexperiment.
So I asked the Google AI thingto find like six definitions of
(05:59):
psychotherapy and then summarizethe common elements and this is
kind of consistent with myobservation.
So I don't think any of this ishallucinations.
But some of the things that youknow were common were, you know
, that it involves communication, interaction with a trained
professional, focus on thoughts,feelings and behaviors to
(06:22):
address a variety of mentalhealth and emotional challenges,
coping skills and problemsolving, value of therapeutic
relationships and a safe andconfidential environment.
And so none of that is a50-minute hour, none of it is a
particular, you know, type ofpsychotherapy.
(06:44):
So you know, I think often theway we think about psychotherapy
is a little bit too narrow and,as we'll get to later on in
this conversation, I think thisis important in thinking about
the ways in which advancedpractice psychiatric nurses are
leaders in psychotherapy.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah, it almost sounds like, if I understand you
correctly, you're kind ofsaying that psychotherapy is
consumed within the discourse ofthe therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Cool.
Yeah, I'm going to take youmore directly towards a
practical experience.
Was there one particularexperience that you had as an
advanced practice nurse thatkind of gave you the bug that,
wow, there is something magicalin this psychotherapeutic
process with a patient Can youidentify and share the story
with us.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Hmm, hmm you know, nothing's coming to mind.
I mean, I've had so many ofthose experiences throughout the
years.
I mean I think one of thethings that really struck me,
(07:59):
you know, because I've done alot of kind of psychoeducational
kind of groups, is the impactof universality, when people
find that they're not alone withtheir problems.
Because you know, I did many,many, you know kind of
psychoeducational groups ondepression and I can't tell you
(08:20):
how many times, you know, whenwe were kind of doing our
checkout and you know peoplewere talking about what they got
from this first session of thegroup, people would say I did
not realize there were so manypeople that had the same problem
as I do and I always thoughtdepressed people were kind of
downers.
But the people here seem prettycool, they have great senses of
(08:43):
humor and they seem prettysmart, and so you know that was
something that, that that reallyimpacted me.
That it's not, it's a kind of asimple thing, but it really
makes a big impact on people.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
That's awesome, I hear.
I hear tales of Yalom'scurative factors coming into
this conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Oh yeah, baby.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Hey, this is Peplow's ghost not Y.
Lau's ghost.
I think he's still alive too.
I shouldn't have put him in thegrave like that.
Sorry.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
So you know, Beth, I'm wondering you mentioned that
you've, you know, done a lot ofpsycho education groups and I'm
wondering for our listeners outthere if maybe you could
elaborate on, sort of, werethese groups focused on a
particular topic?
What types of settings did thegroups that you've run take
place in, like?
Give our listeners a little bitof an overview.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
You know, for a while I was doing them in a kind of
community-based residentialtreatment.
I've spent several years doingprimarily groups in a stimulant
(09:59):
drug treatment program.
I did many years ofpsychoeducational groups and a
big health maintenanceorganization.
So the focus of the groups Imean obviously in the substance
abuse treatment program thefocus was on substance use
recovery.
(10:19):
I did groups, a lot of groups,on depression, anxiety, adhd,
insomnia.
I think I did a couple on angermanagement.
So you know a lot of differentfoci but kind of, I think,
(10:41):
similar strategies or skillsthat these groups focused on.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, I think, going back to
what you said earlier about howsort of what I would term these
common factors in psychotherapyare so important you know so
much of, I think sometimes weget really bogged down in the
details of exactly what type oftechniques we're using.
But important to kind of pareit back and maybe going back a
little bit to Yala, you knowwhat are some sort of principles
(11:12):
or guiding lights that you haveused in your groups to
facilitate change.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, you know, I think a real important role of
the group therapist is to reallyhelp people in the group make
connections with each other,because I think that's where a
lot of the therapeutic benefitsof groups come from.
So kind of helping people seethings that they have in common
or things that they may have acommon problem, but kind of
(11:46):
different ways that manifest fordifferent people.
One of my colleagues kind oftalked about a big focus of
groups being able to identifydifferences within similarities
and similarities withindifferences.
You know universality, justpeople in a lot of contexts, you
(12:07):
know feeling that they're partof a group.
You know, for people who'vebeen socially isolated, that
value of group cohesion you knowI think can be very therapeutic
.
You know the way people learnfrom each other.
It's kind of like, oh, you knowthat person has struggled with
(12:28):
the same problem as me and theytried this and it worked for
them.
Maybe I should try that.
So, you know, I think a lot ofthose, a lot of those things you
know are very impactful.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, thanks, beth.
I mean I'll say thank you too.
I think you've come up with ourtitle for this episode.
I love that idea thesimilarities within the
differences and the differenceswithin the similarities.
That's yeah, that's very justsuccinct and kind of really
streamlining what we're doinghere in this kind of.
My next question, which I wantto get into, as as you're, you
(13:06):
know, one of the you know,stellar nurse leaders here, how
do you see nursing, being aleader in performing
psychotherapy or doing, you know, group psychotherapy and such?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well, you know, I think that nursing is a leader
in kind of flexible applicationof psychotherapeutic techniques,
often when we're kind of doingother things as well, like I.
Actually, I was on the APNAworkforce task force a few years
ago and I actually went backand looked this up, but 69% of
(13:42):
the advanced practice nursesthat were surveyed said that
they used psychotherapy incombination with prescribing.
You know, and I don't know whatthose statistics are like for
other prescribing professions,but I suspect that that's a lot
higher.
And you know I've heard peopleon this podcast like Kate talked
(14:05):
about kind of modifying.
You know I've heard people onthis podcast like Kate talked
about kind of modifying.
You know, the timeframe forpsychotherapy sessions based on
the needs of the population.
You know Chelsea Landolin wastalking about how you can kind
of incorporate cognitiverestructuring into a brief
medication visit.
You know, I think nursing is avery pragmatic profession.
(14:26):
You know, I think nursing is avery pragmatic profession.
We kind of, despite whatevercircumstances we're in, we kind
of figure out how to do whatworks people to receive
combination therapy, bothmedication and psychotherapy,
(14:48):
which much, much research hasdemonstrated is the most
effective for many differentkinds of mental health
conditions.
And also because, you know,nurses are kind of ubiquitous
across the health system, youknow.
It kind of allows us to bringpsychotherapy into settings
(15:13):
where it might not otherwise belike primary care.
So I think that's an area wherenurses are really taking
leadership and I think I thinkit's kind of a matter of framing
, because I think peoplesometimes kind of bemoan, oh, we
don't have enough time to doappropriate psychotherapy.
(15:35):
But I think I think you, youknow you can apply
psychotherapeutic techniquesacross a variety of types of
interactions and nursing is not,you know, we're not like real
dogmatic about you know anyparticular kind of psychotherapy
.
It's kind of like if it works,we use it, you know.
(15:59):
So I think that that'ssomething that we ought to be
tuning our own horn a bit moreabout.
You know our flexibility, ourpragmatism and our ability to
deliver effective treatment topeople with a variety of
different conditions acrosssettings.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Wow, let Dr Phoenix cook.
That was great, that wasamazing.
Yes, I love it Because I meanthere's so many things there
that you just said I that justkind of really resonated with me
.
You know, just this, this ideaof you know not having and you
said this earlier too about youknow, 50 minutes, you know
session is is not the, you know,it's not the framework that we
all need to be thinking aboutfor doing therapy.
And I know, when I really getkind of this prickly like no,
(16:46):
it's, you know it's got to be anhour, that's what this.
You know you only get goodtherapy one hour.
No, I disagree.
I mean I don't think it takesan hour to do therapy.
It's, you can do it in a halfhour.
I mean, I don't know if you cando it in 10 minutes, but I mean
there there is kind of nursingas a holistic science, very
caring science.
(17:06):
You're right, you know, if wefind something that works, we go
with it.
But I wanted to kind of maybefollow up and ask a little bit
of a question just to yourthoughts on it, because I had
this discussion just before westarted recording that a lot of
providers that I talked to youknow they're doing therapy
within their practice just likeyou mentioned that integrated,
you know, med management,therapy type of role but they
(17:28):
don't take credit for it, theydon't count it.
You know they don't counteither for billing or they just
don't say that they're atherapist and for something
about that.
And I think you mentioned thatmaybe they're scared to do
therapy.
But you know, is theresomething else that seems
limiting to you, that why peopledon't kind of take that
ownership that they are doingtherapy?
They just, you know, they justdon't own it in a sense.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, like I, like I kind of indicated before I think
the whole concept ofpsychotherapy has been mystified
a little bit.
That it's.
I mean, I think when peoplethink about that they tend to
think of more in-depthpsychotherapeutic approaches
that are, you know, that youkind of do need a little bit
more time for.
(18:09):
But there's certainly types ofpsychotherapy and I think these
are the types that tend to bemost used by nurses, that you
know that you can kind ofintegrate specific techniques
into a variety of interactionsdepending on the needs of the
patient.
(18:29):
I mean, for instance, you know,if you're seeing a patient for
med management and the patient'skind of ambivalent about taking
medication and their adherenceis not great, you can use a
motivational interviewingtechnique like a decisional
balance.
You know what are the thingsthat you like about taking
medication, what are the thingsthat you don't like.
(18:49):
Kind of explore that to improveadherence or maybe to kind of
figure out that you need tochange your prescribing regimen.
You know, and you know you canuse, you know, cognitive
behavioral techniques likecognitive restructuring.
You know, maybe you're seeing apatient with a medical disorder
(19:14):
like diabetes in primary careand some of their dysfunctional
and distorted beliefs aboutdiabetes are interfering with
their adherence to thatmedication regime.
So you know, I think there isthis idea that somehow that
(19:34):
there's kind of nothing betweennovice to expert and I just
don't think that's how peoplelearn psychotherapy.
I mean, I think you can.
I mean I'm really in a lot ofways kind of largely self-taught
in terms of what I know aboutpsychotherapy, because I didn't
learn it in graduate schoolbecause, you know, it was kind
(19:57):
of like the T word was, you knowkind of not what was on offer
there, but you know from, fromkind of using manualized
psychotherapy, I've I've kind ofused like, learned how to use
specific techniques.
You know, I've kind of beenable to refine that you know,
(20:18):
using supervision and that kindof thing.
So so I think I think havingyou know more of an idea of kind
of building blocks you knowwe're going to teach you some
techniques you can continue tolearn more techniques and how to
appropriately apply them afteryou get out of school, yeah, so
(20:41):
that's.
I think that's kind of one thing.
Is this people having this kindof overly restricted idea of
psychotherapy?
I think the other thing isthere's just there's not a real
clear border between our normaltherapeutic interactions with
(21:02):
patients and psychotherapy Imean, like some types of therapy
approaches, like supportivepsychotherapy are very similar
to kind of just the regularthings that we do in any
encounter with patients.
Some of those you knowtechniques like you know
(21:23):
encouragement.
You know techniques like youknow encouragement, advice,
giving those kind ofreality-based techniques.
So I think some of it is kindof a framing issue, but I do
definitely think that'ssomething that we need to start
claiming a little bit more.
You know being able to identify, know being able to identify.
(21:44):
Yes, I've established apsychotherapeutic relationship.
I have you know, I've kind ofdone an assessment, I have goals
involving psychotherapy.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And I'm doing it and I should get reimbursed for it.
I think, quite frankly, asyou're talking, I'm hearing a
manuscript come out aboutdeconstructing the historical
context, about how weoperationally divine
psychotherapy.
Yeah, great idea.
I agree with you, beth, thatmost of what I learned was
(22:20):
watching those old videos fromCarl Rogers and Aaron Beck in
the 1970s, most of which areblack and white.
I learned more from them than Ithink I have in any formal
classroom environment.
I'm going to ask a questionthat I ask all of you three of
you answer.
I'm going to start with Kate,then I'm going to go to Dan, I'm
going to finish with Beth.
I'm currently teachingpsychotherapy this semester in
my summer semester, and this iskind of the most enjoyable time
(22:42):
of the year for me because of it.
I see a common pattern workingwith students, and if there's
like one student in my cohort islistening right now, hello,
I'll share that.
One of the most commonchallenges that I encounter when
I try to teach individualpsychotherapy from the ground up
is that there is endemic in thenursing role.
(23:02):
Is this tendency to be thefixer in the nursing role?
Is this tendency to be thefixer?
And I'm constantly working withthem to shed loose the fixer
role, to transition to what Dansaid earlier, the facilitator
role, and that role is so wellentrenched for traditional
registered nurses and alsoprimary care nurse practitioners
that are interested ineverybody's thoughts about how I
(23:23):
can break through that fixingmentality, shifting to the
facilitating, and I'll startwith Kate.
What are your thoughts, frank?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Sean, what a great question.
I also am teachingpsychotherapy this quarter.
So, yeah, we're in week threeand this is one of their first
specialty classes actually.
So something I've been tryingout and of course we'll see how
it bears out over the term Um,something I've been trying out,
and of course we'll see how itbears out over the term.
But something I've been tryingout is, uh, trying to make an
analogy, I suppose, um, in termsof shifting the concept of what
(23:54):
they're doing from sort ofacute treatment to chronic
disease management, um, and socalibrating the notion of what
is success.
You know, how do we set goalsthat are realistic, thinking
over the long term, and I havefound with some of my students
that I can see the light bulbgoing on.
So, yeah, that's my, that's mythoughts on that.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
That helps, dan what you got Brent.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, no, that's, yeah.
Great question and great answer, Kate I.
What I will say is probably alittle more pragmatic.
You know, when we run intostudents that struggle with this
and want to fix everything, wejust tell them to shut up.
I mean not so bluntly, right,but it's really about you know,
(24:41):
bite your tongue, getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable of not sayingsomething Because, again, like
we talked earlier about thatfacilitator role of just kind of
being quiet and letting themcome up with their own solutions
.
Sometimes they do a fantasticjob of that.
So sometimes we don't have tohave that magic.
You know saying I sometimesblame a little bit about TV and
movie on this.
Right, you see psychotherapistsand you know famous, like you
(25:01):
know Freud or something, and hesays something that's just
amazing and it comes right offthe cuff and I'm just like, of
course they.
They spent like six months in ascript room trying to figure
out what this.
You know how to say this,exactly right, so, so you're not
going to come up with thatevery time, so, but that's
that's when you were talkingabout this, sean.
That's my initial thought is,you know, if they want to fix,
they want to kind of saysomething that's magical and,
(25:23):
you know, solves all their youknow 25 years of trauma that
they've been experiencing.
That's just not going to happen.
Let them.
Let them kind of be there andagain learn to get comfortable
with that uncomfortableness ofof biting your tongue and not
saying anything.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
So yeah, Great, I'm going to take it to our elder
stateswoman.
What do you got, beth?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Well, you know, I think I think you've really put
your finger on something,because I think nurses by nature
are action oriented and I thinkthat that a lot of since you
know, most nursing training atthe pre licensure level is in
(26:03):
acute care settings.
You know you're not there tokind of negotiate goals with the
patient, you're there to dostuff to get them better.
And a lot of what you're doingis you are acting upon patients.
But I think psych is, you know,except for people, when people
are at their most decompensated.
I mean a lot of what you'redoing is really more
motivational.
And I think you're doing isreally more motivational.
(26:28):
And I think, like Kate wassaying, that kind of gear shift
from you know acute managementto you know kind of long term,
you know helping people learnhow to manage their own
conditions, I mean I thinkthat's a real gear shift for
people.
Own conditions, I mean I thinkthat's a real gear shift for
(26:49):
people.
So I think that has to bereally called out, you know,
just in terms of what people'srole is in this kind of context.
There was something else I wasgoing to say.
You know, I think also,sometimes you just have to, you
just have to raise the issuewith people of kind of their own
(27:12):
need to fix people and that youknow, as nurses it is part of
our kind of ethicalresponsibility to you know kind
of respect people's own, youknow goals and desires.
So you know I think sometimespeople do have to kind of look
(27:36):
at what it is in them determinedto fix people, because that's a
recipe for burnout in the longterm because you can't fix
people, people need to fixthemselves and you can help, you
(27:58):
can support, you can cheer on,you can help people learn skills
.
But ultimately you know peopleare autonomous and they, you
know it's up to them.
So I think kind of, yeah, thatreadjustment of what you think
of that your role is is reallyimportant and that's why it
(28:23):
should.
I'm just going to throw anotherthing in here.
That's why this advice that youshould do your year of med
search before you go into psychis not good preparation for
going into psych, because psychis a different mentality.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Well said.
Before I pass it to Kate, I'lljust say I agree, I appreciate
everybody's feedback and Iparticularly connect with what
you said, beth, because Ipersonally think that carrying
this fix-it mentality intoadvanced practice psychiatric,
mental health nursing is anexample of our unchecked
countertransference.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Absolutely.
But as a former student ofBeth's and later on her
colleague, you know Beth wrotethe mission statement for the
PsychMP program at UCSF, ofwhich an important part is that
tolerance for uncertainty andambiguity is something you must
cultivate in your advancedpractice role, which I think is
so important, and I love thatshe would read that out loud at
(29:21):
the beginning of every year.
That she would read that outloud at the beginning of every
year.
So, Beth, I'll ask you ourfinal question for today, which
is you know, how do you see thefuture of psych MPs, advanced
practice psych nurses usingpsychotherapy?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, I think basically kind of continuing to
do what we're doing now buttaking more, claiming more
ownership over it.
I do think it's extremelyimportant for psychotherapy to
continue to be taught and forcertifying bodies to require
(29:59):
that psych and peace studentsget supervised clinical training
in psychotherapy.
Because students get supervisedclinical training in
psychotherapy, because you knowit's basically you know it's
basically part of the you knowkind of toolbox that you have
for working with people who havemental health conditions.
(30:20):
You know, I think you know kindof being more intentional in
terms of how we talk aboutpsychotherapy and are the types
of psychotherapy we use, how weuse it, the skills you know, the
skills we have, articulatingthat to the public, to payers.
You know whatever, you knowwhatever.
(30:48):
But you know, I think, kind ofdemystifying it for students.
You know, giving students moreconfidence that you know you
kind of start small, you learnsome techniques.
You know, you try them, yourefine them, then you learn more
techniques.
It's not like some big jumpfrom novice to expert.
You know, I think those aresome things that are important
for the future.
(31:08):
But because psychotherapyevidence-based psychotherapies
have such a strong track recordof helping people get better, it
is crucial that it continue tobe part of psych NP practice.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Love it Wonderful, thank you, thank you.
Thank you, dr DeBeth Phoenix,for being our guest here on Pep
Lau's Ghost.
Please look forward to otherepisodes that'll be coming soon.
And again thank you, dr Phoenix, for just really helping us
demystify this role ofpsychotherapy within the
practice.
So, all right, take careeveryone and we'll see you in
(31:57):
the next episode.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Like, subscribe and comment.
Please, bye-bye leaving, so youcan be.
You Got a discovery Identifyingchallenging your beliefs,
reframing your mind.
Negative thoughts.
Release these cognitivedistortions.
Decrease until they cease.
Yeah, got a discoveryIdentifying, challenging your
beliefs, reframing your mind.
(32:19):
Negative thoughts.
Release these cognitivedistortions.
Decrease until they cease.
Yeah, just my take on things.
My answer to number twodecrease until they cease.
It's not a discovery,identifying a challenge in your
(00:27):
beliefs or framing your mind.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I think we're recording.
Welcome everybody to Pep Lau'sGhost Another exciting episode
here.
As we move through the summer,hopefully you're enjoying some
warm weather wherever you may be, but really excited to have our
next guest here, dr BethPhoenix, who's going to be here
(00:52):
and sharing her views on usingpsychotherapy and kind of her
general experiences.
And such Really pleasure tohave Dr Beth Phoenix here on
this podcast.
She's, you know, one of thetrailblazers as I may hopefully
not offensive, but a livinglegend in my opinion within the
psych mental health nursingcommunity.
I took a couple notes before wegot going.
So she was the president of theAPNA, the American Psychiatric
Nurse Association.
(01:13):
That was back in 2012 to 2013.
So did some amazing thingsthere and has actually in 2023,
I forgotten, it's amazing, Ithought this was just last year,
but 2023, she was nominated andvoted for to be the APNA Psych
Nurse of the Year.
That's huge.
(01:33):
I mean just to kind of think ofall the psych nurses, you were
number one in 2023.
So great.
And again, hopefully.
If you don't know Dr BethPhoenix, maybe you can look up
her bio.
She's very well known aroundthe University of California,
san Francisco, where she did alot of her training, was a
program director there for awhile too.
So again, thank you very much,dr Beth Phoenix, for joining us,
(01:53):
and I'll just kind of get usgoing and talking about our
favorite subject, psychotherapy.
So when did you get interestedin psychotherapy as a concept or
as a skill?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
When did you start to notice that was something you
wanted to devote part of yourmost of your life to.
So, you know, my history was isa little different than a lot of
people you've interviewed onthis podcast, because when I was
in graduate school in the late80s, the director of my program
was, you know, I was in the CNSprogram and the director of my
(02:31):
program did not think thatpsychiatric CNSs should be
trained in psychotherapy.
She thought that, you know,nursing was focusing too much on
what she called the worriedwell.
You know, nursing was focusingtoo much on what she called the
(02:55):
worried well, and that shereally felt like we needed to
focus more on people with severeand persistent mental illness.
So the focus of our trainingwas really much more on
psychosocial rehabilitation forpeople with severe and
persistent mental illness mentalillness and so, you know, a big
part of that was, you know,group.
It delivered in groups.
So that's when I really firstgot really interested in groups
(03:16):
and, you know, started tounderstand how important it was
for nurses to have skills inleading groups.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Great.
Do you know what was aboutgroups that was so fascinating
or you know, or was just part ofthe program and you just got
kind of got the bug and it bityou.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, you know, what I really liked about, you know,
use of therapeutic groups wasthat you know, the therapist
didn't have to do everything.
I mean, a lot of thetherapeutic effect of groups is
from group members'relationships with each other
and what they learn from eachother and how they bond with
(04:01):
each other and how they bondwith each other, and I just
found that to be kind of a moreempowering, you know, form of
support for people, because as agroup leader, most of what
you're doing is facilitatingpeople's relationships with each
other.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
So that was something that really appealed to me and
kind of helping people benefitfrom the wisdom of the group.
Yeah, no, that's great.
I don't know, and I forgot toagain to introduce my co, I
(04:43):
guess my co-facilitators as wellDr Sean Convoy from Duke and Dr
Kate Molino from alsoCalifornia, university of
California, san Francisco.
But yeah, you know, before Ibecame a nurse, I was a program
director for the partialhospital program, which was
primarily group based, and and Iagree that was that's always
been the relief of of doinggroup therapy is that you don't
have to have all the answers andprobably somebody within the
group is going to have a betteranswer and a better way of
(05:04):
saying it than ever I could.
So I just need to make sure Idon't get in the way of the
process and I really like theidea of not.
Always in my program I told mystudents you're not a group
leader, you're a groupfacilitator.
I like that idea.
You don't lead the group, youjust facilitate that
conversation and, like I said,just try to get out of the way
when you can.
So all right, I'll turn it overto Sean.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, great opportunity.
We were talking about thisbefore we went live about.
You know how we wouldnecessarily operationally define
psychotherapy.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I do, you know, because I think people have a
lot of assumptions aboutpsychotherapy.
I mean, I think people think 50minute hour, they tend to think
of individual therapy kind ofexclusively.
So I decided to do a little AIexperiment.
So I asked the Google AI thingto find like six definitions of
(05:59):
psychotherapy and then summarizethe common elements and this is
kind of consistent with myobservation.
So I don't think any of this ishallucinations.
But some of the things that youknow were common were, you know
, that it involves communication, interaction with a trained
professional, focus on thoughts,feelings and behaviors to
(06:22):
address a variety of mentalhealth and emotional challenges,
coping skills and problemsolving, value of therapeutic
relationships and a safe andconfidential environment.
And so none of that is a50-minute hour, none of it is a
particular, you know, type ofpsychotherapy.
(06:44):
So you know, I think often theway we think about psychotherapy
is a little bit too narrow and,as we'll get to later on in
this conversation, I think thisis important in thinking about
the ways in which advancedpractice psychiatric nurses are
leaders in psychotherapy.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah, it almost sounds like, if I understand you
correctly, you're kind ofsaying that psychotherapy is
consumed within the discourse ofthe therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
Cool.
Yeah, I'm going to take youmore directly towards a
practical experience.
Was there one particularexperience that you had as an
advanced practice nurse thatkind of gave you the bug that,
wow, there is something magicalin this psychotherapeutic
process with a patient Can youidentify and share the story
with us.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Hmm, hmm you know, nothing's coming to mind.
I mean, I've had so many ofthose experiences throughout the
years.
I mean I think one of thethings that really struck me,
(07:59):
you know, because I've done alot of kind of psychoeducational
kind of groups, is the impactof universality, when people
find that they're not alone withtheir problems.
Because you know, I did many,many, you know kind of
psychoeducational groups ondepression and I can't tell you
(08:20):
how many times, you know, whenwe were kind of doing our
checkout and you know peoplewere talking about what they got
from this first session of thegroup, people would say I did
not realize there were so manypeople that had the same problem
as I do and I always thoughtdepressed people were kind of
downers.
But the people here seem prettycool, they have great senses of
(08:43):
humor and they seem prettysmart, and so you know that was
something that, that that reallyimpacted me.
That it's not, it's a kind of asimple thing, but it really
makes a big impact on people.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
That's awesome, I hear.
I hear tales of Yalom'scurative factors coming into
this conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Oh yeah, baby.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Hey, this is Peplow's ghost not Y.
Lau's ghost.
I think he's still alive too.
I shouldn't have put him in thegrave like that.
Sorry.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
So you know, Beth, I'm wondering you mentioned that
you've, you know, done a lot ofpsycho education groups and I'm
wondering for our listeners outthere if maybe you could
elaborate on, sort of, werethese groups focused on a
particular topic?
What types of settings did thegroups that you've run take
place in, like?
Give our listeners a little bitof an overview.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
You know, for a while I was doing them in a kind of
community-based residentialtreatment.
I've spent several years doingprimarily groups in a stimulant
(09:59):
drug treatment program.
I did many years ofpsychoeducational groups and a
big health maintenanceorganization.
So the focus of the groups Imean obviously in the substance
abuse treatment program thefocus was on substance use
recovery.
(10:19):
I did groups, a lot of groups,on depression, anxiety, adhd,
insomnia.
I think I did a couple on angermanagement.
So you know a lot of differentfoci but kind of, I think,
(10:41):
similar strategies or skillsthat these groups focused on.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, I think, going back to
what you said earlier about howsort of what I would term these
common factors in psychotherapyare so important you know so
much of, I think sometimes weget really bogged down in the
details of exactly what type oftechniques we're using.
But important to kind of pareit back and maybe going back a
little bit to Yala, you knowwhat are some sort of principles
(11:12):
or guiding lights that you haveused in your groups to
facilitate change.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, you know, I think a real important role of
the group therapist is to reallyhelp people in the group make
connections with each other,because I think that's where a
lot of the therapeutic benefitsof groups come from.
So kind of helping people seethings that they have in common
or things that they may have acommon problem, but kind of
(11:46):
different ways that manifest fordifferent people.
One of my colleagues kind oftalked about a big focus of
groups being able to identifydifferences within similarities
and similarities withindifferences.
You know universality, justpeople in a lot of contexts, you
(12:07):
know feeling that they're partof a group.
You know, for people who'vebeen socially isolated, that
value of group cohesion you knowI think can be very therapeutic
.
You know the way people learnfrom each other.
It's kind of like, oh, you knowthat person has struggled with
(12:28):
the same problem as me and theytried this and it worked for
them.
Maybe I should try that.
So, you know, I think a lot ofthose, a lot of those things you
know are very impactful.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, thanks, beth.
I mean I'll say thank you too.
I think you've come up with ourtitle for this episode.
I love that idea thesimilarities within the
differences and the differenceswithin the similarities.
That's yeah, that's very justsuccinct and kind of really
streamlining what we're doinghere in this kind of.
My next question, which I wantto get into, as as you're, you
(13:06):
know, one of the you know,stellar nurse leaders here, how
do you see nursing, being aleader in performing
psychotherapy or doing, you know, group psychotherapy and such?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Well, you know, I think that nursing is a leader
in kind of flexible applicationof psychotherapeutic techniques,
often when we're kind of doingother things as well, like I.
Actually, I was on the APNAworkforce task force a few years
ago and I actually went backand looked this up, but 69% of
(13:42):
the advanced practice nursesthat were surveyed said that
they used psychotherapy incombination with prescribing.
You know, and I don't know whatthose statistics are like for
other prescribing professions,but I suspect that that's a lot
higher.
And you know I've heard peopleon this podcast like Kate talked
(14:05):
about kind of modifying.
You know I've heard people onthis podcast like Kate talked
about kind of modifying.
You know, the timeframe forpsychotherapy sessions based on
the needs of the population.
You know Chelsea Landolin wastalking about how you can kind
of incorporate cognitiverestructuring into a brief
medication visit.
You know, I think nursing is avery pragmatic profession.
(14:26):
You know, I think nursing is avery pragmatic profession.
We kind of, despite whatevercircumstances we're in, we kind
of figure out how to do whatworks people to receive
combination therapy, bothmedication and psychotherapy,
(14:48):
which much, much research hasdemonstrated is the most
effective for many differentkinds of mental health
conditions.
And also because, you know,nurses are kind of ubiquitous
across the health system, youknow.
It kind of allows us to bringpsychotherapy into settings
(15:13):
where it might not otherwise belike primary care.
So I think that's an area wherenurses are really taking
leadership and I think I thinkit's kind of a matter of framing
, because I think peoplesometimes kind of bemoan, oh, we
don't have enough time to doappropriate psychotherapy.
(15:35):
But I think I think you, youknow you can apply
psychotherapeutic techniquesacross a variety of types of
interactions and nursing is not,you know, we're not like real
dogmatic about you know anyparticular kind of psychotherapy
.
It's kind of like if it works,we use it, you know.
(15:59):
So I think that that'ssomething that we ought to be
tuning our own horn a bit moreabout.
You know our flexibility, ourpragmatism and our ability to
deliver effective treatment topeople with a variety of
different conditions acrosssettings.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Wow, let Dr Phoenix cook.
That was great, that wasamazing.
Yes, I love it Because I meanthere's so many things there
that you just said I that justkind of really resonated with me
.
You know, just this, this ideaof you know not having and you
said this earlier too about youknow, 50 minutes, you know
session is is not the, you know,it's not the framework that we
all need to be thinking aboutfor doing therapy.
And I know, when I really getkind of this prickly like no,
(16:46):
it's, you know it's got to be anhour, that's what this.
You know you only get goodtherapy one hour.
No, I disagree.
I mean I don't think it takesan hour to do therapy.
It's, you can do it in a halfhour.
I mean, I don't know if you cando it in 10 minutes, but I mean
there there is kind of nursingas a holistic science, very
caring science.
(17:06):
You're right, you know, if wefind something that works, we go
with it.
But I wanted to kind of maybefollow up and ask a little bit
of a question just to yourthoughts on it, because I had
this discussion just before westarted recording that a lot of
providers that I talked to youknow they're doing therapy
within their practice just likeyou mentioned that integrated,
you know, med management,therapy type of role but they
(17:28):
don't take credit for it, theydon't count it.
You know they don't counteither for billing or they just
don't say that they're atherapist and for something
about that.
And I think you mentioned thatmaybe they're scared to do
therapy.
But you know, is theresomething else that seems
limiting to you, that why peopledon't kind of take that
ownership that they are doingtherapy?
They just, you know, they justdon't own it in a sense.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, like I, like I kind of indicated before I think
the whole concept ofpsychotherapy has been mystified
a little bit.
That it's.
I mean, I think when peoplethink about that they tend to
think of more in-depthpsychotherapeutic approaches
that are, you know, that youkind of do need a little bit
more time for.
(18:09):
But there's certainly types ofpsychotherapy and I think these
are the types that tend to bemost used by nurses, that you
know that you can kind ofintegrate specific techniques
into a variety of interactionsdepending on the needs of the
patient.
(18:29):
I mean, for instance, you know,if you're seeing a patient for
med management and the patient'skind of ambivalent about taking
medication and their adherenceis not great, you can use a
motivational interviewingtechnique like a decisional
balance.
You know what are the thingsthat you like about taking
medication, what are the thingsthat you don't like.
(18:49):
Kind of explore that to improveadherence or maybe to kind of
figure out that you need tochange your prescribing regimen.
You know, and you know you canuse, you know, cognitive
behavioral techniques likecognitive restructuring.
You know, maybe you're seeing apatient with a medical disorder
(19:14):
like diabetes in primary careand some of their dysfunctional
and distorted beliefs aboutdiabetes are interfering with
their adherence to thatmedication regime.
So you know, I think there isthis idea that somehow that
(19:34):
there's kind of nothing betweennovice to expert and I just
don't think that's how peoplelearn psychotherapy.
I mean, I think you can.
I mean I'm really in a lot ofways kind of largely self-taught
in terms of what I know aboutpsychotherapy, because I didn't
learn it in graduate schoolbecause, you know, it was kind
(19:57):
of like the T word was, you knowkind of not what was on offer
there, but you know from, fromkind of using manualized
psychotherapy, I've I've kind ofused like, learned how to use
specific techniques.
You know, I've kind of beenable to refine that you know,
(20:18):
using supervision and that kindof thing.
So so I think I think havingyou know more of an idea of kind
of building blocks you knowwe're going to teach you some
techniques you can continue tolearn more techniques and how to
appropriately apply them afteryou get out of school, yeah, so
(20:41):
that's.
I think that's kind of one thing.
Is this people having this kindof overly restricted idea of
psychotherapy?
I think the other thing isthere's just there's not a real
clear border between our normaltherapeutic interactions with
(21:02):
patients and psychotherapy Imean, like some types of therapy
approaches, like supportivepsychotherapy are very similar
to kind of just the regularthings that we do in any
encounter with patients.
Some of those you knowtechniques like you know
(21:23):
encouragement.
You know techniques like youknow encouragement, advice,
giving those kind ofreality-based techniques.
So I think some of it is kindof a framing issue, but I do
definitely think that'ssomething that we need to start
claiming a little bit more.
You know being able to identify, know being able to identify.
(21:44):
Yes, I've established apsychotherapeutic relationship.
I have you know, I've kind ofdone an assessment, I have goals
involving psychotherapy.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
And I'm doing it and I should get reimbursed for it.
I think, quite frankly, asyou're talking, I'm hearing a
manuscript come out aboutdeconstructing the historical
context, about how weoperationally divine
psychotherapy.
Yeah, great idea.
I agree with you, beth, thatmost of what I learned was
(22:20):
watching those old videos fromCarl Rogers and Aaron Beck in
the 1970s, most of which areblack and white.
I learned more from them than Ithink I have in any formal
classroom environment.
I'm going to ask a questionthat I ask all of you three of
you answer.
I'm going to start with Kate,then I'm going to go to Dan, I'm
going to finish with Beth.
I'm currently teachingpsychotherapy this semester in
my summer semester, and this iskind of the most enjoyable time
(22:42):
of the year for me because of it.
I see a common pattern workingwith students, and if there's
like one student in my cohort islistening right now, hello,
I'll share that.
One of the most commonchallenges that I encounter when
I try to teach individualpsychotherapy from the ground up
is that there is endemic in thenursing role.
(23:02):
Is this tendency to be thefixer in the nursing role?
Is this tendency to be thefixer?
And I'm constantly working withthem to shed loose the fixer
role, to transition to what Dansaid earlier, the facilitator
role, and that role is so wellentrenched for traditional
registered nurses and alsoprimary care nurse practitioners
that are interested ineverybody's thoughts about how I
(23:23):
can break through that fixingmentality, shifting to the
facilitating, and I'll startwith Kate.
What are your thoughts, frank?
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Sean, what a great question.
I also am teachingpsychotherapy this quarter.
So, yeah, we're in week threeand this is one of their first
specialty classes actually.
So something I've been tryingout and of course we'll see how
it bears out over the term Um,something I've been trying out,
and of course we'll see how itbears out over the term.
But something I've been tryingout is, uh, trying to make an
analogy, I suppose, um, in termsof shifting the concept of what
(23:54):
they're doing from sort ofacute treatment to chronic
disease management, um, and socalibrating the notion of what
is success.
You know, how do we set goalsthat are realistic, thinking
over the long term, and I havefound with some of my students
that I can see the light bulbgoing on.
So, yeah, that's my, that's mythoughts on that.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
That helps, dan what you got Brent.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, no, that's, yeah.
Great question and great answer, Kate I.
What I will say is probably alittle more pragmatic.
You know, when we run intostudents that struggle with this
and want to fix everything, wejust tell them to shut up.
I mean not so bluntly, right,but it's really about you know,
(24:41):
bite your tongue, getcomfortable with being
uncomfortable of not sayingsomething Because, again, like
we talked earlier about thatfacilitator role of just kind of
being quiet and letting themcome up with their own solutions
.
Sometimes they do a fantasticjob of that.
So sometimes we don't have tohave that magic.
You know saying I sometimesblame a little bit about TV and
movie on this.
Right, you see psychotherapistsand you know famous, like you
(25:01):
know Freud or something, and hesays something that's just
amazing and it comes right offthe cuff and I'm just like, of
course they.
They spent like six months in ascript room trying to figure
out what this.
You know how to say this,exactly right, so, so you're not
going to come up with thatevery time, so, but that's
that's when you were talkingabout this, sean.
That's my initial thought is,you know, if they want to fix,
they want to kind of saysomething that's magical and,
(25:23):
you know, solves all their youknow 25 years of trauma that
they've been experiencing.
That's just not going to happen.
Let them.
Let them kind of be there andagain learn to get comfortable
with that uncomfortableness ofof biting your tongue and not
saying anything.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
So yeah, Great, I'm going to take it to our elder
stateswoman.
What do you got, beth?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Well, you know, I think I think you've really put
your finger on something,because I think nurses by nature
are action oriented and I thinkthat that a lot of since you
know, most nursing training atthe pre licensure level is in
(26:03):
acute care settings.
You know you're not there tokind of negotiate goals with the
patient, you're there to dostuff to get them better.
And a lot of what you're doingis you are acting upon patients.
But I think psych is, you know,except for people, when people
are at their most decompensated.
I mean a lot of what you'redoing is really more
motivational.
And I think you're doing isreally more motivational.
(26:28):
And I think, like Kate wassaying, that kind of gear shift
from you know acute managementto you know kind of long term,
you know helping people learnhow to manage their own
conditions, I mean I thinkthat's a real gear shift for
people.
Own conditions, I mean I thinkthat's a real gear shift for
(26:49):
people.
So I think that has to bereally called out, you know,
just in terms of what people'srole is in this kind of context.
There was something else I wasgoing to say.
You know, I think also,sometimes you just have to, you
just have to raise the issuewith people of kind of their own
(27:12):
need to fix people and that youknow, as nurses it is part of
our kind of ethicalresponsibility to you know kind
of respect people's own, youknow goals and desires.
So you know I think sometimespeople do have to kind of look
(27:36):
at what it is in them determinedto fix people, because that's a
recipe for burnout in the longterm because you can't fix
people, people need to fixthemselves and you can help, you
(27:58):
can support, you can cheer on,you can help people learn skills
.
But ultimately you know peopleare autonomous and they, you
know it's up to them.
So I think kind of, yeah, thatreadjustment of what you think
of that your role is is reallyimportant and that's why it
(28:23):
should.
I'm just going to throw anotherthing in here.
That's why this advice that youshould do your year of med
search before you go into psychis not good preparation for
going into psych, because psychis a different mentality.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Well said.
Before I pass it to Kate, I'lljust say I agree, I appreciate
everybody's feedback and Iparticularly connect with what
you said, beth, because Ipersonally think that carrying
this fix-it mentality intoadvanced practice psychiatric,
mental health nursing is anexample of our unchecked
countertransference.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
Absolutely.
But as a former student ofBeth's and later on her
colleague, you know Beth wrotethe mission statement for the
PsychMP program at UCSF, ofwhich an important part is that
tolerance for uncertainty andambiguity is something you must
cultivate in your advancedpractice role, which I think is
so important, and I love thatshe would read that out loud at
(29:21):
the beginning of every year.
That she would read that outloud at the beginning of every
year.
So, Beth, I'll ask you ourfinal question for today, which
is you know, how do you see thefuture of psych MPs, advanced
practice psych nurses usingpsychotherapy?
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, I think basically kind of continuing to
do what we're doing now buttaking more, claiming more
ownership over it.
I do think it's extremelyimportant for psychotherapy to
continue to be taught and forcertifying bodies to require
(29:59):
that psych and peace studentsget supervised clinical training
in psychotherapy.
Because students get supervisedclinical training in
psychotherapy, because you knowit's basically you know it's
basically part of the you knowkind of toolbox that you have
for working with people who havemental health conditions.
(30:20):
You know, I think you know kindof being more intentional in
terms of how we talk aboutpsychotherapy and are the types
of psychotherapy we use, how weuse it, the skills you know, the
skills we have, articulatingthat to the public, to payers.
You know whatever, you knowwhatever.
(30:48):
But you know, I think, kind ofdemystifying it for students.
You know, giving students moreconfidence that you know you
kind of start small, you learnsome techniques.
You know, you try them, yourefine them, then you learn more
techniques.
It's not like some big jumpfrom novice to expert.
You know, I think those aresome things that are important
for the future.
(31:08):
But because psychotherapyevidence-based psychotherapies
have such a strong track recordof helping people get better, it
is crucial that it continue tobe part of psych NP practice.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Love it Wonderful, thank you, thank you.
Thank you, dr DeBeth Phoenix,for being our guest here on Pep
Lau's Ghost.
Please look forward to otherepisodes that'll be coming soon.
And again thank you, dr Phoenix, for just really helping us
demystify this role ofpsychotherapy within the
practice.
So, all right, take careeveryone and we'll see you in
(31:57):
the next episode.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Like, subscribe and comment.
Please, bye-bye leaving, so youcan be.
You Got a discovery Identifyingchallenging your beliefs,
reframing your mind.
Negative thoughts.
Release these cognitivedistortions.
Decrease until they cease.
Yeah, got a discoveryIdentifying, challenging your
beliefs, reframing your mind.
(32:19):
Negative thoughts.
Release these cognitivedistortions.
Decrease until they cease.
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