September 21, 2024 • 54 mins
Discover the complexities of local governance and the financial intricacies that shape our emergency services in Pflugerville. Join us as we sit down with tech sales engineer and community advocate Anthony Nguyen. Anthony sheds light on the controversial issue of abolishing sales tax revenue for the fire department and explains the complicated two-step process required by state law. With his deep involvement in local government, Anthony offers invaluable insights into how sales tax is allocated in Pflugerville compared to neighboring areas like Round Rock and Wells Branch.
Uncover the financial hurdles and political challenges that have shaped the Pflugerville Fire Department, Emergency Service District 2 (ESD2) over the past decade. From their reliance on property and sales taxes to the new property tax limits and the creation of ESD17 in Wells Branch, we explore the multi-layered funding and management of these critical services. We discuss the broader implications for emergency medical services and the community's response to potential cuts in ambulance services, emphasizing the pivotal role of community involvement in driving change.
Finally, learn about the tax allocation for public safety services and the substantial role that city staff on budget allocations. Learn how community advocacy can influence council decisions and bring about meaningful changes. We also delve into the potential consequences of eliminating sales tax and the challenges of transitioning emergency services. Don’t miss our upcoming guest, ESD2 Board of Commissioner Vice President April Griffin, as we continue to tackle these vital issues affecting Pflugerville.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Fox Alarm in ESD 2, Fox.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All right, anthony.
So, given everything that youknow and you definitely know a
lot about this from thisNovember, whether to abolish the
sales tax revenue for the firedepartment, how are you going to
vote, if you don't mind saying?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I'll vote for it.
You know I'm hoping that it's ashift right, but it's a
two-step process because of thelaws of the state.
We have to take it away fromone entity and then another
entity.
The city should pick it up, andthen the city can give it back
(00:45):
to ESD-2, and ESD-2 can continueresuming the same level of
service with ambulance transport, and everybody will be happy,
right?
So that's how I see it rightnow.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Welcome back to Pflugerville on Fire.
I'm your host, chris Wolfe.
In this episode, we'reinterviewing Anthony Wynn.
He moved to Pflugerville onFire.
I'm your host, chris Wolfe.
In this episode, we'reinterviewing Anthony Wynn.
He moved to Pflugerville in2008 from Flint, michigan.
He's an engineer by trade whocurrently does tech sales, and
he's been an outspoken critic ofnot just the fire department
but also the city ofPflugerville.
What's special about Anthony ishe doesn't just sit on his
(01:21):
couch, you know, typing thingsout.
He's gotten out and has gottenengaged in his government and
has done some things.
He served as the ISD on the ISDBond Oversight Committee, the
Travis County Appraisal Boardand the PCDC, which is the
Pflugerville CommunityDevelopment Corporation.
He's got a vast and broadexperience and I think that for
(01:45):
most of our listeners, you'reprobably with the fire
department going to vote no onthis, but even so, hopefully
there's some listeners out therethat want to vote yes.
Right, it's important that welisten to all of the
perspectives and I believe thatAnthony is someone who cares
about the community.
I know he's a rational personwho does a really good job
(02:07):
articulating his position.
Fair warning to our listenersthe show does run a little bit
long.
We're at the 50-minute mark andthere was just so much good
stuff in there I didn't reallywant to take it out.
I kind of just let Anthony talkand I learned a lot speaking
with him, and I'm sure you willas well.
All right, anthony Wynn,welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks so much for comingon.
(02:28):
So we decided we'd bring you on.
You were just saying that youdo tech sales and you can boil
down complicated things and makethem simple, and you and I had
a conversation earlier, I guesslast week, and I told my wife
Lacey that that was somethingthat was perfect, that you could
come on and kind of break someof this down for us.
So, anthony, one thing that I'dlike to ask you about can you
(02:49):
explain how the sales tax worksthat we pay right now in
Pflugerville?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah.
So in the state of Texasthere's a state sales tax of six
and a quarter percent.
So everybody pays six and aquarter.
The state allows localmunicipalities to add two cents
to it.
So that's where we get eightpoint two five percent.
So most places, if you live inthe urban area, pays eight point
(03:14):
two five percent because thattwo cents is going to local
municipalities.
So to get that two percent thelocal municipalities usually
have to have an election todecide where it goes.
So in here in Pflugerville 1% ofit goes right to the city of
(03:36):
Pflugerville.
It amounts to about $20 million.
A half cent of it goes to theEconomic Development Corporation
, pcdc $10 million and the otherhalf cent goes to ESD2.
So we've decided to give it tothe city and they can spend it
on whatever they want policeparks, roads, economic
(03:57):
development, new jobs at ESD foremergency management In Round
Rock.
A percent goes to the city, ahalf a cent goes to property tax
relief.
So they had a vote years agothat says whatever you collect
for that half cent, we want tolower property tax.
So instead of raising propertytaxes every year by 8% or 3.5%,
(04:20):
whatever that sales tax comes in, they have to apply that to
lower their tax rate.
So that's why they got like a 30, some odd, right, I think 31 or
33 and it might change with thenew budget year right, sales
tax.
So wells branch, they take ahalf cent.
They have a library, theywanted to build a library with
that half cent in the etj.
They have cap metro.
We want transit right, so thattwo percent is available for a
(04:48):
number of different things.
You can do for communitycolleges too, so.
But the people have to rise upand say do a petition and say,
hey, we want this half cent, onecent, right.
You can go down to an eighth ofa cent and delegate it.
In most places they're all attwo percent because everybody
figured out the rules andabsorbed it 10 years ago.
Nobody took that half cent inthe etj.
(05:09):
That's where esd2 came alongand said oh well, there's this
half cent in the etj.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Nobody has it right and so you grabbed it right and
there was a vote, and this isabout the 2010 to 2013, about
the 2010.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The 2013.
Oh, the latest one.
Yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, I got to ask you what prompted you to get
involved in your localgovernment the way you are.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, I moved into Pflugerville in 2010.
Well, I moved into the area in2008 and bought a house in 2010
in the ETJ Actually has a RoundRock mailing address.
Green Ridge is the subdivision,but it was Pflugerville.
Etj Actually has a Round Rockmailing address.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Green Ridge is the subdivision but it was
Pflugerville ETJ.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Extra territorial jurisdiction you got it, which
simply meant that someday, if wewere to be part of a city, it
would be Pflugerville and notRound Rock, and our schools were
Pflugerville.
But we were just in the countyright and didn't pay any city
taxes.
But they were in the process ofannexing us, which means we
would become part of the cityand we would start paying a city
(06:11):
tax.
And I said, well, how much isthat going to cost me?
And they said about a thousanddollars.
My house was around 215,000 atthe time and, yeah, back then
the city tax rate was in the 60,I want to say 63 cents and it
was about $1,200 more.
So I don't escrow my taxes.
I pay them once a year andthat's per year.
(06:31):
Yep.
So in January I wrote a check.
I remember the first year wasabout $4,000.
And then the next year it wentup to $4,200.
And I was like, well, what am Igetting for this extra $1,200
that I'm paying to the city?
And nobody could really answerthat question.
(06:51):
And so I started researching itand looking into it and they
said, well, you'd be part of thecity of Pflugerville, you get
Pflugerville services, and whatis that?
And it turns out it's oh,pflugerville police.
Right, when you call 911, youwant the police to come at your
door instead of the countysheriff coming at your door.
And the complaint was, whensomebody needed the police, it
(07:13):
was the county sheriff and itcould take 15, 20 minutes, where
the city of Pflugerville wouldbe a lot less time.
Well, I did test it the firstyear, really, and they were.
The knock on our door one nightcalled them.
They were there in 60 minutes,or, yeah, six minutes, wow.
And I was like, oh, wow, thisis great.
And it's like you must not havemuch to do, because I used to
(07:34):
live in michigan and I've had myhouse broken into and they
would never come out, and thiswas flint michigan, so it's not
the best part of town, but youpay for additional police, okay,
well, that sounds like that'sworth it for better police.
And so I just startedresearching the city and signed
up for city council meetings tolisten to them.
Just to know, you know, am Igetting my $1,200 a year more in
(07:57):
services to be part of the city, and I wanted to live in an
affordable place.
That's why I chose this ETJarea at the time, and my number
one thing was to try to keep itaffordable as much as possible,
and so whenever they would talkabout taxes property taxes if I
(08:22):
felt it was unjust, then I wouldstart speaking out at city
council meetings.
Actually, my first meeting Ispoke out at was in 2010, at a
school board meeting.
That school board meeting, itwas in the paper I read that the
school board wanted to raisethe debt service to the state
maximum, which is 50 cents, andI was like what the heck?
(08:42):
Why do they want to charge amaximum school debt rate?
And it turns out nobody else inthe area charged 50 cents.
And I was like what the heck?
Why do they want to charge themaximum school debt rate?
And it turns out nobody else inthe area charged 50 cents.
Austin I see what's much lower.
Round Rock I see what's muchlower.
And I remember going there andspeaking out and you know they
still ended up doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
But at least you were paying attention.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I was starting to pay attention, yeah yeah, I asked
the questions and so years later, 2016, I started going to city
council member meetings and cityof Pflugerville actually at the
time they were lowering theirtax rates.
So Jeff Coleman was the mayorand was at 60 cents and he ran
on a platform of, hey, we'regoing to lower the rate, and it
(09:20):
steadily.
For like eight years 2010 to2018, they kept on lowering the
rate.
It didn't mean we paid lesscity taxes because of our
valuation, but they startedlowering it.
But then, around 2016, 17, theystarted increasing the rate.
And then that's when I spoke upat city council meetings.
I got to know all the citycouncil members and I actually
(09:43):
got them to keep the rate thesame one year and I was the only
speaker.
I was like hey why are weraising the rate?
Our property values are risingand you're increasing the rate.
I don't see any need for that.
And since I was the only oneand it was like my first meeting
I was kind of in the honeymoonperiod they actually went the,
(10:04):
they actually went against staffand lowered it and I was like,
wow, this does work if you speakout and get involved.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But you have to educate yourself for that to
work and that takes.
So one great thing about you isyou've got a good demeanor and
you've got the experience acrossseveral avenues that you can
kind of explain this really well.
So for our listeners, can youbriefly run through?
How did we get to where we aretoday with the fire department?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, so that's a long drawn-out story over 10
years.
I'll try to be concise.
So 10 years ago, in 2013, wehad our ESD.
They had two primary revenuestreams a property tax of $0.10
and a sales tax of a half a cent.
(10:52):
We were growing at the time in2013, and felt like they needed
more money, and they actuallywent to the city council saying,
hey, you guys are growing, canyou give us some extra money to
help subsidize our service?
Well, the city council said no,their tax rate was very high
and they didn't want to pay anymore money.
(11:14):
They couldn't do it.
They're like we don't handleemergency services.
That's your role.
So ESD2 said, okay, the city'snot going to give us any money.
They actually tried to do anoverlay back then, but the
county commissioner said no,right, because, as it turns out,
the city council at times wereso against it that the county
(11:36):
commissioner said right, we'renot going to do an overlay.
Let's add another sales tax ofa half cent to the areas in
ESG-2 that wasn't charging asales tax.
And so that was the secondsales tax election that passed
by six votes, and I wasn'treally paying attention to the
(11:59):
time.
It was 2013.
And actually I was fightingAustin City Council for Uber.
I was in Uber trying to comearound and they I was fighting
Austin City Council for Uber.
Oh wow, uber was trying to comearound and they wanted to shut
it down, and I was kind of inthat battle in my political
career.
So, anyways, so ESD2 got thatsecond sales tax and they said
(12:21):
at the time and correct me ifI'm wrong that it was for ALS
Ambulance Life Support Systemand there's some debate whether
it included ambulance transportor not, but I think we can agree
that the amount of money theygot from that was a windfall.
I think in your previouspodcast you said it was a
blowout.
It turned into millions ofdollars and in 2017, they
(12:45):
decided to hey, we got all thismoney, we should do something
with it, which was let's add onsome ambulances and let's do
transport in addition to ALS.
So ESD2 started doing ambulancetransport in 2017, 18, 19, 20.
Transport in 2017, 18, 19, 20.
(13:11):
And in 2020, what happened wasand I've been thinking about
whose fault this is, and I'mgoing to say it's your
counselor's fault we passed SB2in 2019, the state legislature,
which lowered how much you canincrease property taxes by three
and a half percent.
And I think your counseladvised ESD2, hey, if we don't
do something right now, you'regoing to be running out of money
.
And they came up with theseforecasts and they asked again
(13:31):
the city hey, we need some money$2.7 million to continue to do
ambulance transport services,and if we don't get it we won't
be able to do it.
Well, city council at that timesaid no, won't be able to do it
.
Well, city council at that timesaid no, we don't think you
need it.
And so you guys, esd2, wentback to the county commission.
Let's do an overlay.
(13:52):
They did an overlay, but thecity had to give consent.
The city didn't give consent,so they only had a election in
the other areas outside the city.
It was created ESD17, primarilyin the areas outside the city.
It was created ESD 17,primarily in the Wells Branch
area.
Then ESD 2 used a loophole thatsaid, well, now that it's
(14:12):
created, we can just annexwithout city consent.
And so we had an election inthe city and it failed.
And then, after it failed, thatwas when the threats of losing
our ambulance transport serviceshappened.
Right, it wasn't, we'll say, itwasn't ESD-2, but it was
community members.
(14:32):
Firefighters outside of ESD-2threatened to stop the ambulance
service, which you know.
The board said that they wouldif they didn't, if it didn't
pass and the city didn't give asubsidy.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And to add some, context, once 17 passed right
and some people were paying forambulance service, the really
ESD 2 couldn't continue toprovide it.
Right, that was under thepurview of ESD 17.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
There's some debate in state law, but generally, yes
, if you have another districtthat is providing service, then
other districts couldn't.
But in actuality, esd-17 was afront, it was a board that met,
but they outsourced everythingto ESD-2.
Esd-2 was still providing theambulance transport service.
(15:20):
They're the first responders,they're providing basic life
support.
They just weren't taking themthe last mile right.
They weren't hitching a ride,even though they show up and
they do all the basic stuff,right.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They just weren't giving them the ride and so
right and to be fair that islike, uh, you know, you're
familiar with scope creep, youknow where, you know, okay, we
got called, call thefirefighters, all right, they
patch them up.
All right, they stabilize them,you know at what point, like
does the actual transport?
You know, does that comeoutside the scope of what a fire
department does, you know?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Well, probably A traditional fire department.
You just put out fire.
That's what you are for.
But I would say, legally, thelegal name is Travis County
Emergency Service District.
There's no fire in there,there's no ambulance in there,
there's no rescue, it'semergency services collect a tax
(16:26):
and the board decides do youspend it on fire, do you spend
it on rescue, do you spend it onambulance?
And it's totally at theirdiscretion.
Yeah, the initial intent manyyears ago was a fire department.
But I'm good, I'm glad that theboard saw the need for
ambulance, because medicalservices is.
You look at the previousnumbers, it's like four to one,
three to one.
There's many more medicalservice requests than fire,
(16:49):
which is great.
Buildings aren't burning downbut people are having health
issues.
So if I were on the board, whynot shift some of that funding
to more paramedics thanfirefighters?
Because that's where the needis, and I think some of the
board members are kind of stuck.
Well, we originally, wheneverit was 30 years ago, set up this
fire department.
(17:09):
But the need is in medical.
So you can adjust, you canchange right and and they should
have, and you guys, and theydid right you started providing.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
you know you had four ambulances right, and we talked
about it in the first podcast.
That's out.
But you know that's where thecounty came in and you were
talking about the differencebetween sheriff and municipal.
Just the time to get anambulance out here was an issue.
Do you recall anything aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Right, right.
Well, I hear that the countyhad two ambulance stations and
ESD-2 would supplement that.
I think that was the intent.
Yes, but I think the reality isit's Austin-Travis County EMS,
right, and most of the action isin Austin.
So if you have a shared pool ofambulances, I want to say they
(17:58):
have what?
30 or 40.
Right.
It's going to get sucked intoAustin, because that's where the
action is.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Just like if it was the Pflugerville.
Travis County, you could expectthem to get sucked into the
Pflugerville and this is kind oflike when I did my Uber days.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Same thing, right.
People need transport indowntown Austin.
You naturally get sucked intothat, and probably Pflugerville
is, you know.
There's 65,000, 70,000 people.
Austin is 800,000 now, so allof the action is always going to
be in the densely populatedareas.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
The more densely populated it is, the more
services you require, andthey'll suck away that.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
But if you want the best service, you want dedicated
, localized service as much aspossible, and I can see why
Austin Travis decided to pullthem.
But maybe they would argue andthis is a question for them is
were they really pulled away orwere they just pulled away
because there was not enoughaction?
In Pflugerville?
Our recent prime minister saidthe same thing.
(18:55):
You guys don't need three orfour ambulances, you only need
two.
Right, and if you want it free,then you only have two.
But the city decided to pay $1.3 million just to have one on
standby, just in case, right,and it won't be pulled because
it's just in the city ofpflugerville, right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
and that has to do with what we would call level
zero.
Like you know, however deepyour ambulances are, like you've
got three.
Once you want three calls popat the same time.
Now you've got none, so four isbetter, and I think really five
would even be better than that.
But it all has dollars andcents, right?
You've got to pay for every oneof those, right, right?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's a cost of doing it.
You don't want burnout, right,Austin Travis?
They're probably going from onecall to another because they
just have enough to meet thecurrent demand and nobody wants
burnout from their firstresponders.
So there needs to be somedowntime and you need some extra
capacity just waiting there.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Absolutely Well.
Anthony, let's say it's fastforward to November.
The sales tax if it getsrepealed and the voters vote yes
for Prop A, what do you thinkis going to happen with that
money?
Vote yes for Prop A.
What do you think is going?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
to happen with that money?
Well, if voters vote yes, thenit will free up a half cent in
the district for some otherentity to grab it.
Most likely the city hasexpressed interest to take it.
They would be a fool not totake it, but they can't just
take it.
They can call an election forit and then take it.
They would be a fool not totake it, but they can't just
take it.
They can call an election forit and then take it.
(20:28):
If it passes, then they'll getit.
And the intent of this drive, asI understand it, is that they
would take it for emergencyservices and I would hope that
they would take it and negotiatewith ESD2.
Nobody wants to set up theirown EMS system, fire department.
(20:52):
That doesn't make sense.
We've already made thatinvestment with Travis County
ESD2.
So you give it back to them,some portion of it.
But now the city will be in abetter negotiating standpoint
because they're collecting themoney and ESD2 will have to
itemize the cost and there'll bea little bit more control on
(21:14):
those costs because the city iscollecting it and it won't be
just a rate, a half cent rate orpercentage rate that you get
where there's no caps, it'll bemore defined and now that it's
in the hands of the city,they're elected leaders.
If we don't like them, you know?
(21:34):
I have all their phone numbers,I can talk to them.
I can go to city council membersand kick them out With the ESD2
board.
I can't really talk to them,right?
They're not elected, right?
They are appointed by thecounty commissioners and the
county commissioners.
They have a vested interest inmore ESDs because they're really
(21:55):
responsible for ambulanceservices, so, but they have many
demands for roads and safetyand so if they can have more.
Esd2s, then they don't have toworry about Invest so much in
the mess.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That's interesting.
I hadn't really thought aboutit like that Right.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
So if you're, you know, and I've been watching
their meetings, just like inmost of the ESD2 meetings, it's
like yes, it's like unanimous.
We all five agree.
We all five agree.
Right, they never have anydissension.
They don't really debate, atleast with city council.
There's a lot of four, threedecisions and they debate all
night long on issues.
So at least there's a propervetting of it.
(22:31):
And I don't get the sense thatESDs do that.
They're just there to you know,a stepping stone to the next,
you know next job.
Right, april, I think, ran forcity council.
Rico tried to run for houserepresentative.
Right, it's like a steppingstone and they're not really
doing it for the right reasons.
I sometimes feel.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Oh, I don't know, I don't know.
I mean I'll encourage listenersto go on and like, look at
their resumes, because there'spretty.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Have you looked?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
at the resumes of the .
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I meanthey're pretty impressive people
.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
No, no, yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, I'm not, you know,
I know rico, right, I was onthe travis didn't go to harvard.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, he's a harvard graduate so smart, smart guy,
smart guy and an ambitious guy,I would say so anthony, you said
so many good things that I haveto.
I don't want to run over ontime but I have to go back on um
.
So you said the city would keepa portion of that and then try
to negotiate with the firedepartment to provide the other
service.
I think.
What do you think about, likeas a taxpayer, if I pay part of
(23:34):
my taxes to esd?
I know that that money is goingtowards, you know, public
safety in my community.
Does it make you uncomfortablethat part of your tax dollars
would go to a city and then youwouldn't really know how many of
those would go back into yourpublic safety?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Definitely, yeah, I mean, I'm an equal opportunity
critic of all governmententities.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I know you are yes.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So it is a risk that the city would get it and they
would spend it on a water park,a city hall, a municipal center.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We don't have time to explain to the listeners, but
listeners, Google everythingthat Anthony just said.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
He's very on it.
Think that the council memberswant the best emergency services
as a whole and that they woulddo the right thing and spend it
on emergency services right,because that is the intent of
the petitioners is to put thecity in a better spot to
(24:41):
negotiate reasonable rates, andwe don't want Travis County ESD
2 to go away.
Put the city in a better spotto negotiate reasonable rates
and we don't want Travis CountyESD 2 to go away.
Right, they've been doing aphenomenal job up until they
stopped transporting and let'scontinue to have you guys do
that.
And this debate, when I look atit, is really about an opinion
(25:03):
Do we have enough money or not?
Right, right, and the board atESD2 is saying, no, we don't.
We need a subsidy $2.7 millionand the city and their
consultants say you got enoughmoney and why can't we get
(25:24):
together and go?
Well, maybe we do, and if youactually start going in the red,
then you ask for money.
But right now, when you look atthe books, when I look at, my
opinion is that it sure doesseem like you have enough money
and those forecasts from 2020said that you would be in the
red this year, next year, butthere's like 40 million in the
bank.
You increased your reservepolicy from you know I think it
(25:46):
was three months to six months,so you have a significant
reserve.
So 2.7 million that you'reasking for the city is chump
change.
So why not continue to officeservice?
And I don't think this wholeeffort would have happened if
ambulance services ceased toexist For sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, I think if they had kept running it we wouldn't
be talking about it.
What's the city's annualoperating budget?
Is it $80 or?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
$90 million, depending on how you look at it.
Right, they have utilities,which is yeah in the 80s and 90s
, but just for the property tax,for the city police parks, I
want to say it's 50 60 million.
It goes up every year and Istopped looking at it the last
couple of years, but yes thereason why I say that is I hear
(26:34):
people say like well why,doesn't the est just absorb it?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
but the city is such a bigger entity.
I don't understand why don'tthey meet halfway or why doesn't
the city absorb it.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well, the city has its own challenges.
Right, they were set up, theywould argue.
They're only set up for police,roads, parks, right those
things.
And fire and ambulance itwasn't in their purview.
It was the county forambulances and we had ESD2 for
fire.
So they never handled it before, they were never required to
(27:07):
handle it, they were nevermandated.
They were asked in 2013, 10years ago.
The city said no.
They were asked again in 2020.
The city said no Because youknow they were and this is some
you know they don't want tochange, just like you know.
Maybe the old timers at ESDTsaid we're a fire department, we
don't want to change and thecity's like we're a city yeah
we're just a city and so we allserve the community, and so
(27:37):
we've got to think what's thebest for the community and keep
that in mind.
And I think there's been a lotof bad blood on both sides over
the years, that I think egoshave gotten in the way of having
a solution that everybody canagree upon.
Everybody's just fixated onwhat they think is right.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Everybody's loved ones live here.
Everybody's got people theycare about.
Nobody wants bad first responsefor sure.
All right, so you're like yousaid.
You're an equal opportunitycritic.
In your opinion, who's thebetter steward of taxpayer
dollars, either city ofPflugerville or ESD2?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
In this case because I can unelect my city council
members.
I would say that the city,because I can talk to them and I
can vote them out.
I can't vote out the ESD2commissioners.
If I had it my way, there was abill that was working through.
If we had elected ESD2commissioners, then that
(28:42):
probably would work for me.
It'd be a good compromise.
Like they do in Houston andparts of the state, they
actually have elected ESD 2commissioners so that if we
don't like what they're doing,we can kick them out.
Right.
In this case it's taxationwithout representation.
Right, they're taxing us, butwe can't kick them out and the
county commissioners won't.
So it's just a quasi board thatgets together and just approves
(29:03):
everything.
They never reject anything,they hardly debate, and so in
the framework that we have rightnow, I would say I would take
my chances with the city, eventhough I don't like a lot of
decisions that they made.
I think there is a chance thatthey would take the money and
spend it on other things thataren't emergency services.
But at least I can go talk tothem and speak out, and because
(29:27):
I have been able to affectchange with them over the years,
I see my chances of affectingchange with them better than the
board at ESD2, which right theygenerally.
I've never seen them go againststaff recommendations and they
have public comment, but I feellike it's just a show.
I haven't ever seen them changetheir mind because of something
(29:50):
that somebody said a publiccomment but I have seen that
happen at city council membersand I have talked a number of
times and, yeah, over the yearsthey actually have lowered the
tax rate.
But has that ever happened at anESD2 meeting?
Probably not.
Has people talked at thosemeetings?
Probably not.
Well, they have lowered the taxrate, but has that ever
happened at an ESD2 meeting?
Probably not.
Have people talked at thosemeetings?
Probably not.
Well, they have lowered the taxrate Right, but lower it beyond
(30:11):
what staff recommended, right?
So in the city council meetings, right, staff would recommend
this and they would actually goagainst them.
And actually the first time Idid that, the city manager left
and went to Galveston and I kindof felt like he was pissed when
he went against his way.
But ESD2 have lowered the taxrate over the last three years
(30:34):
but it wasn't really because ofthe board saying hey, we want a
lower rate.
It was because city staffpresented a lower rate and they
just said okay and because ofthe laws SB3 that said they
couldn't raise it by 3.5%.
So they were just following thelaws and there's some
complexities in there why theyhad to lower it.
(30:55):
But yeah, if the current ratecollects more than 3.5%, then
they have to lower it and that'swhy they were lowering it,
because the law dictated thatthey had to.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Did you get a chance to look at the Perryman report
that asserted that ESDs weremore efficient model than
municipal?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I went over that quickly and the details were a
little bit lacking, but mysummary read of it was that ESDs
are more cost effective thanmunicipally run emergency
service district.
I would love to ask them howthey calculated the cost of a
(31:33):
municipal, because in amunicipal all you know is the
overall city tax rate, which ishigher, the overall city tax
rate which is higher, right?
So I don't think they break itout by tax rate that, oh, this
is.
They claim that it was 12 to 18cents for municipal, but they
didn't really explain how theydetermined that number, because
(31:55):
I've looked at others, likeRound Rock, and they don't say,
oh, we spent X amount.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I know Round Rock is in the 30 cent area for their
overall city budget, but that'sfor police, parks, roads and
they do fire, but how do you?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
know what is a percentage of the fire?
I guess you could look at thebudget.
Did they look at the budget,look at the cost and then
converted it to a tax rate?
But in general, let's say thatit's true that ESDs are more
efficiently run.
I would say instinctuallythat's probably correct because
(32:31):
you're focused.
You're focused on doinggenerally a limited set of
services emergency response,where the city can do a lot of
different things, includingemergency response, where the
city can do a lot of differentthings, including emergency
response.
And when you raise more money,you have to spend more money on
management and overhead, so thatcosts more money.
I do generally believe in morelocalized control of government.
(32:57):
Where you focus on one thingwill generally be more cost
effective than trying to do toomuch at one Right a broad scope.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
The broader it is, the less efficient it becomes
generally be more cost effectivethan trying to do too much at
once.
Right a broad scope.
The broader it is, the lessefficient it becomes.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Right, you just have to hire just way more overhead
to manage it and that costs alot more money and everybody's
covering their butt.
So they tend to spend moremoney and I see what has
happened to the city right.
The amount that they pay forthings is just ungodly in some
cases.
So in general, yes, the moreyou can focus, the more you can
get services down to the locallevels.
(33:29):
They're the same.
All politics is local.
I do believe in that and um andthat.
I'll say this one thing on thisI was on my hoa board and they
wanted to install a pool, foryou know, we had some extra
money and people wanted a pool.
When I looked at the cost oflike in my house at the time, it
(33:49):
was like $50,000.
So I looked at it for HOA andthey said, oh no, we can't do a
residential pool, it has to beADA compliant, all this stuff.
And it was like $180,000.
I'm like why he's like well,that's just what it is.
And so whenever you bring inpeople, government, entities,
with more money, they'll find away to spend it and make it cost
(34:12):
more, and you see that all thetime.
So, really efficient governmentis not too big, not too small,
but in the middle ground.
And trying to achieve thatmiddle ground where you get all
the services you want but it'snot exorbitant or less, is
really the point.
And so in my activism I alwaystry to find that middle ground
(34:35):
that we can have everything wewant, but not pay too much, but
not be too small.
Where we're ineffective and youknow, are we there now, right,
an argument could be said well,maybe ESD2 is too big, right,
they got, you know, they got allthis money and they found a
reason to spend it.
So maybe we should centralizeit to the city, right, but maybe
the city's too big right.
(34:56):
What is the optimal size?
And that's an art, that's, youknow, a delicate balancing act
that we're all trying to achieve, and you know it's an opinion
at the end of the day, I knowwith the fire department.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Everything you buy, if you put like rescue for fire
use, for some magical reasonit's twice the price.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, it's pretty wild, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I know you've gotten into the ESD2 budget.
That Perryman report said thatthe Pflugerville Fire Department
was the second most efficientfire department in the region.
What do you think about how theboard has spent the case?
I didn't see that in thatreport.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I remember a meeting where your chief talked about
that, and so I can't really givean opinion.
That report that you sent mewas just about overall ESDs
compared to municipalities.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Because I looked for that, because I wanted to see
how they arrived at that number,but that wasn't in that one
report.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
All right.
So I know you've looked at theESD2 budget.
What do you think about howthey've spent money in it?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
budget.
What do you think about howthey've spent money in it?
Well, as I said, I do thinkthat they have collected a lot
more sales tax than theyrealized, and you know they
found places to spend it righton additional ambulances, which
are, you know.
I don't know why they cost asmuch as they do.
It's like everything, butthey're like an F-150 truck
right which is under $100,000,but you put ambulance in, it's
(36:26):
$600, $800, even $1 million,right, I guess, to be fair, it's
an F-550, so I don't know whatthose go for, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
But I tell you you put a box on the back of that
thing, it gets very expensive,that's for, you know, I'd like
to think that they are trying tobe conservative, they're
looking at the future.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Maybe they're being too worrisome about the future
and have you know they have anumber of vacancies, right, I
think I heard a figure over 100.
If you include the cadets, it'seven more, and so if you don't
hire them, that's your biggestcost.
So you have a lot of savingsthey call it vacancy savings
(37:08):
that you pad the budget with butyou never really fill it.
So you have these reservesevery year, and so when you cry
wolf, that oh, we need moremoney you know that I don't like
that, because they do have themoney.
So just continue to do theservices for the fees and taxes
(37:33):
you're already collecting, and Ithink everyone would be happy.
And let bygones be bygones.
Whatever happened in the past,just let it go, and I think you
guys will be fiscally solventgoing forward.
Because when I looked at thenumbers and the city has looked
at the numbers you have thefunds to do it and you're
(37:53):
already showing up.
So why can't you just go?
You have to get the ambulanceback to your station.
Why can't you just take it tothe hospital?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Right, right.
Well, I mean to be fair.
The ambulance isn't going Ifthey're not transporting though.
It's just a fire apparatus, butright now.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Right now.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Right, right For sure .
All right, Anthony, let me askyou a question.
Given what you know from yourexperience on PCDC and
everything else, how much hasthe city staff impacted where we
are today?
How much has the city staff?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
impacted where we are today.
Well, I think staff iseverything right.
Staff recommendations to theseboards and city council members.
95% of2 board was asking thecity, which will ask staff hey,
(38:49):
can we afford $2.7 million?
They're going to be like no, Igot all these roadways, I got
all these things to fund and Idon't have $2.7 million when
they literally have over $500million in the bank.
You include all the bonds, buteven in the reserves it's you
know 2.7 million.
They could afford it if theywanted to, but it's you know.
(39:12):
They treat it like it's theirmoney, right, just like the esd2
says well, we're a firedepartment and that's all we're
supposed to be, right.
They're kind of dug in that andthe city should pay something,
right.
So when you ask our city staffcity manager you know, can I
have $2.7 million?
She's going to be like no, we'venever paid a subsidy, we've
(39:32):
never done it.
So they're going to recommendno, and that will sway heavily
on the council, right?
The city manager doesn't wantto do it, so we're going to say
no.
They'll say that they looked atthe numbers and they don't need
it, and so, generally, that'swhere I found you have to work
if you really want things done.
It's the administrators, thecity managers, the chief.
(39:54):
You got to convince them thateverything will be okay and
they'll go along, especially ifyou don't have a strong board,
if you don't have strong councilthat fights back, that pushes
back and challenges them.
Well then, 99% of theirrecommendations just get
approved.
So we have to convince them togive a little or push back at
(40:16):
council meetings.
But that's tough, right.
There's the old phrase you knownever fight city hall, and I
have done it, and it is not easy, right, you got to put yourself
out there.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Not too many people can say that, but you can.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
And it's not easy.
But yeah.
But you know I seldom ever talkto staff, but I realize that's
where the recommendations.
But I say, hey, you know, Ibelieve power to the people and
they call these public meetings,so that's your opportunity to
talk and everyone needs to usethat power to talk to them.
And I found at least my citycouncil will listen to me, not
(40:52):
all the time but generally.
You know over the years theyhave listened and they will do
the right thing Well that'sencouraging.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I think maybe if more people, you think, if more
people got involved, it wouldmake a difference Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Because those city council?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
meetings get pretty sparse in there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's tough and there is definitely a honeymoon period
, because I've seen them changetheir vote on this annexation on
Rowe Lane, where this lady saidI don't want this development.
She had never talked before.
So if it's your first timetalking, they'll give you a
honeymoon, they'll give youdeference and they'll side your
way.
And, yeah, they didn't approvethe zoning change.
(41:30):
Interesting, because she didn'twant it.
Because they do, they'reelected leaders.
They feel a little bit ofpolitical pressure and they will
change now over the years.
You know I spoke so much after awhile it's like oh, it's
anthony again, and so now Iprobably wore I've, you know,
worn out my welcome, if you will, and so you feel like you're
less effective now than you were10 years ago well, I've shifted
(41:53):
in in my approach right toadjust, so I don't speak out as
much on city council as I usedto, but I like to think, you
know, like doing this and otherthings, I still try to stay
involved where I can to make adifference, and there's many
ways to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It's not just coming on and explaining some of this
stuff makes a huge difference.
Yeah, and I've done a bunch ofthese podcasts online too.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
So I try to diversify , but use your voice and
especially if you've neverspoken right, if they see you,
they're like oh, I haven't seenthis point of view.
And with the esd, if they gotsome additional people right,
because you know, if it's alwaysthe same people talking, it's
just like, oh, it's, it's thatperson again and you do wear out
your welcome and I've been soinvolved so long that you know I
(42:45):
have worn out my welcome,unfortunately, but I'm still
trying to make it, still findingways to be impactful.
Yes, that's great.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
So one thing that I know that the county or the ESD2
Board of Commissioners has doneis allow the fire chief to talk
to the city manager about taxrevenue sharing.
Have you looked into or heardanything about that?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I have not heard anything about that.
I don't know how that wouldwork because the revenue, at
least for sales tax, is decidedby the state comptroller.
So whenever the last electionwas, it goes to that entity.
But if you're saying that theywould just agree to share it,
then I think that's fine If thishappens to go through and the
(43:34):
city gets it.
Well now, yeah, we'll behopefully.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
There definitely will be some sharing.
There'll be some sharing.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
I hope there's a meeting of the minds and they
come to an agreement.
Of course they'll disagree onthe number, but we definitely
don't want to lay off anybodyfrom ESD2.
And we want to continue ourservices and bring back
ambulance.
I don't think anybody is happywith the privates, although I
(44:01):
don't want to demean them.
I think they're adequatelytrained, just about everybody
else.
But they do have a differentincentive structure to reap
profits that ESD2 doesn't.
But the city was kind of forcedinto that situation when Travis
County ESD2 said they weren'tgoing to transport anymore so
they had to put somebody inthere.
(44:23):
But I don't think they wantedto do that.
And and you saw the last citycouncil members there was some
wavering right like the mayor hewas, you know he wanted a whole
yeah, we should give people.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
If you're listening, you got time, pull up the city
website.
It was, I believe.
The may 28th city councilmeeting is very interesting to
watch yeah, yeah, and and and.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
So we did have unexpected death.
I think you guys call it asentinel event with the privates
.
So you know, there's a point.
It probably could happen toanybody, but it happened on
their watch.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I gotta stop you there, it's never happened no,
it's never happened, where thecoroner says that the cause of
death was from improper ems oh,oh, okay, all right, all right.
Yeah, no, we have, but you lostlies right, yeah, but there's a
huge difference between uhtrying to save someone and not
being able to, and literallyokay that was a mistake, but
that person was let go.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
They're no longer working, for I forget.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
It's arcadia, or allegiance, yeah and yeah so
that was definitely bad Right.
We all agree that was bad and Ithink there's a lot of reasons
outside the scope of this show.
I yes it would be better, but Ithink no one's arguing that
Right, we just got to figure outhow to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Are you worried that there isn't a mechanism for the
fire department to expand withthe city If they're capped by
the House Bill 2 and lose thesales tax revenue?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
No, because if we get inflation back to where it was
before 2022, it was only one anda half two percent, and for
most of that time the cap was 8%, and so most ESDs raised their
property taxes by 8%, 10%, no,well, they could raise their
(46:15):
property taxes by a percent ofthe previous year, but yeah,
minus the cap.
So if you hit the 10 cent capthen you can raise even more.
So it went from 8 8 to 3.5,with the 3.5 only for the
largest esds in texas, which areonly like three, and esd2 was
(46:35):
one of them, because I think thelimit was 15 million.
I don't we can look it up, butif your revenue was more than 15
million some minimum numberthen you're subject to it all
the other ones they could stillgo to eight percent because
they're much smaller.
So that's how they bracketedthat law.
Even though that's cap rightand that's what your council
(46:56):
likes to focus on, sales taxesare not capped right.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Sales taxes sky's the limit and that's why it was
less than a million to now youknow, we're looking at like $10
million.
I think it's $17 million.
$17 million, right.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
It's significant and those have been rising
significantly and when I lookedat it it was huge.
Yeah, it was nothing, and nowit's in the millions of dollars
and it's far outpaced yourproperty tax revenue which, yeah
, now it's kept at 3.5%.
So if we're growing, if we'readding more home, those people
are paying property taxes,they're spending more money in
(47:34):
the community and that sales taxwill also increase and that
should be enough to sustain andmaintain.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
What if that sales tax is eliminated in November?
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well, that will be a hit.
Yeah, that will be a hit to howmuch you can generate, because
you'll only be getting a half acent in the areas outside of the
city.
But hopefully the city picks itup and then they'll be.
They should be more thanwilling to give a portion of
that back for emergency services, right?
(48:08):
Either that you know, the worstcase is they would set up their
own, but that doesn't make anysense.
To set up their own, right?
We already have theinfrastructure in place.
I'm sure they will do the rightthing and the ESD2 board will
agree to an amount that isagreeable by both sides and just
give that money back.
Right, that's the only thingthat makes sense.
Doesn't make any sense, right?
(48:29):
People are saying, oh well,yeah, there doesn't make it.
Yeah, you're right, it doesn'tmake any sense for the city to
establish their own.
We already have the buildings,the infrastructure, the people,
their trainees just utilize them.
If the worst case happens andthey don't agree on them out and
the city has to do it all,right you guys won't be laid off
(48:53):
because, all right, let's saysomehow they find the money well
, they'll have to pass a bond,they'll have to pass a bond and
buy it, but the people are laidoff in this theoretical
standpoint.
They'll just go there.
Right?
You got, I think you said inyour last podcast, and I agree
there is more vacancies andemergency service responders
than any other job besides,maybe teachers.
So you'll just go work for them, so nobody needs to be worried
(49:17):
about losing their job.
You just might be working at adifferent agency.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, I think if you, I gotta get you to ride along
because you're such, if you, Igot to get you to ride along
because you're such a smart guy,I need to get you to absorb
more with the fire department.
But it would take.
I think your scenario that youjust described would probably be
true, but would take three tofour years to make happen.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Yeah but it would be asinine if they actually tried
to set up their own.
It doesn't really make sense.
We have the infrastructurealready in place.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
And that's what they would have to do if the city and
the ESD2 board.
It could be possible but itwould cost more money.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I don't want anything that costs more money,
especially since we've alreadypaid for that infrastructure.
That's.
The other option is they canbuy it from ESD2.
All right, we'll buy this andthen take it over.
But why do we need to do that?
Just come to agreement and letthe current people that are
doing the work, that have done agreat job, continue to do it.
(50:21):
And you know, stop debatingover over.
We feel we need more money.
That's what it's kind of comedown to.
And everybody has plenty ofmoney, from what I've seen, more
money than they know what to dowith.
But if you're given the chance,they'll figure out a reason to
spend it.
And the city obviously hasfigured out a reason to spend it
(50:43):
and ESD too has.
But just live within your means,like we all have to right, we,
we all have a job and we have abudget and we live within our
means.
Yeah, we would like more.
There's always things that youknow we can wish, we would like,
but you know, everybody has tolive under constraints and I
(51:06):
think our governments need to dothe same.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
All right, Anthony.
So, given everything that youknow and you definitely know a
lot about this from thisNovember, whether to abolish the
sales tax revenue for the firedepartment, how are you going to
vote, If you don't mind sayingyeah, I'll vote for it.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You know I'm hoping that it's a shift right, but
it's a two-step process becauseof the laws of the state.
We have to take it away fromone entity and then another
entity in the city should pickit up, and then the city can
give it back to ESD2 and ESD2can continue resuming the same
(51:50):
level of service with ambulancetransport, and everybody will be
happy, right.
So that's how I see it rightnow.
Ideally, I wish there was ameasure that we voted on our
commissioners and then I couldmaybe run or put people that I
know and help them be on thatboard to more work cooperatively
(52:12):
.
Right now I don't feel likethey're listening, there's not a
lot of cooperation.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, and they don't listen to the people.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
At least the city council members are willing to
listen and I think they'll dothe right thing.
So, yes, I'll vote for it, withthe planning that the city will
take that and be able toestablish emergency services,
(52:39):
hopefully with Travis CountyESD2, and nobody loses their
jobs and we can get rid of theprivate ambulance companies.
Esd-2 can continue to do itlike it was.
What is it now?
Two years ago, three years ago,and I think everybody would be
happy.
That would be nice.
There would be a lot of ifs inthat scenario?
Well, anthony man, I just lovethe way that you explain things.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
I think I'd love to get you to do some write-outs,
or something Sure, On myapparatus and man thank you for
coming on the show.
Yeah, no problem If we get somefollow-up questions or
something would you be willingto come back Anytime?
Speaker 1 (53:18):
All right, cool.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
All right, well, thank you so much.
Great thank you.
So.
So that wraps up our episode.
Thank you so much to ourlisteners for tuning in and
thank you to Anthony for takingtime out to come on the show.
And you know, if we don't doanything else, I think that what
we've really done is educateour community and, hopefully,
inspire other people to getinvolved and take leadership
(53:42):
roles.
You know, if you don't like howthings are going, you can
complain about it or you can dosomething about it, and
hopefully you've learned alittle bit more of how you can
make that happen.
We talked about sales tax andhow that works.
We talked about the challengeswith the budget and the
forecasting for the ESD, and wealso learned that the vote needs
to be a two-part process if anyof that money is gonna end up
(54:06):
going to fund EMS.
We also learned that there's asentiment from people who want
the ESD Board of Commissionersto be in an elected position.
Tune in next week because we'regoing to be talking to ESD2
Board of Commissioner VicePresident, april Griffin.
Commissioner.
Vice President, april Griffin.
She's going to talk about herperspective as a commissioner
(54:29):
and as a Pflugerville residentand how she sees this topic from
her perspective.
So tune in next week forPflugerville on Fire.
Fox Alarm in ESD 2, Fox.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All right, anthony.
So, given everything that youknow and you definitely know a
lot about this from thisNovember, whether to abolish the
sales tax revenue for the firedepartment, how are you going to
vote, if you don't mind saying?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Yeah, I'll vote for it.
You know I'm hoping that it's ashift right, but it's a
two-step process because of thelaws of the state.
We have to take it away fromone entity and then another
entity.
The city should pick it up, andthen the city can give it back
(00:45):
to ESD-2, and ESD-2 can continueresuming the same level of
service with ambulance transport, and everybody will be happy,
right?
So that's how I see it rightnow.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Welcome back to Pflugerville on Fire.
I'm your host, chris Wolfe.
In this episode, we'reinterviewing Anthony Wynn.
He moved to Pflugerville onFire.
I'm your host, chris Wolfe.
In this episode, we'reinterviewing Anthony Wynn.
He moved to Pflugerville in2008 from Flint, michigan.
He's an engineer by trade whocurrently does tech sales, and
he's been an outspoken critic ofnot just the fire department
but also the city ofPflugerville.
What's special about Anthony ishe doesn't just sit on his
(01:21):
couch, you know, typing thingsout.
He's gotten out and has gottenengaged in his government and
has done some things.
He served as the ISD on the ISDBond Oversight Committee, the
Travis County Appraisal Boardand the PCDC, which is the
Pflugerville CommunityDevelopment Corporation.
He's got a vast and broadexperience and I think that for
(01:45):
most of our listeners, you'reprobably with the fire
department going to vote no onthis, but even so, hopefully
there's some listeners out therethat want to vote yes.
Right, it's important that welisten to all of the
perspectives and I believe thatAnthony is someone who cares
about the community.
I know he's a rational personwho does a really good job
(02:07):
articulating his position.
Fair warning to our listenersthe show does run a little bit
long.
We're at the 50-minute mark andthere was just so much good
stuff in there I didn't reallywant to take it out.
I kind of just let Anthony talkand I learned a lot speaking
with him, and I'm sure you willas well.
All right, anthony Wynn,welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks so much for comingon.
(02:28):
So we decided we'd bring you on.
You were just saying that youdo tech sales and you can boil
down complicated things and makethem simple, and you and I had
a conversation earlier, I guesslast week, and I told my wife
Lacey that that was somethingthat was perfect, that you could
come on and kind of break someof this down for us.
So, anthony, one thing that I'dlike to ask you about can you
(02:49):
explain how the sales tax worksthat we pay right now in
Pflugerville?
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah.
So in the state of Texasthere's a state sales tax of six
and a quarter percent.
So everybody pays six and aquarter.
The state allows localmunicipalities to add two cents
to it.
So that's where we get eightpoint two five percent.
So most places, if you live inthe urban area, pays eight point
(03:14):
two five percent because thattwo cents is going to local
municipalities.
So to get that two percent thelocal municipalities usually
have to have an election todecide where it goes.
So in here in Pflugerville 1% ofit goes right to the city of
(03:36):
Pflugerville.
It amounts to about $20 million.
A half cent of it goes to theEconomic Development Corporation
, pcdc $10 million and the otherhalf cent goes to ESD2.
So we've decided to give it tothe city and they can spend it
on whatever they want policeparks, roads, economic
(03:57):
development, new jobs at ESD foremergency management In Round
Rock.
A percent goes to the city, ahalf a cent goes to property tax
relief.
So they had a vote years agothat says whatever you collect
for that half cent, we want tolower property tax.
So instead of raising propertytaxes every year by 8% or 3.5%,
(04:20):
whatever that sales tax comes in, they have to apply that to
lower their tax rate.
So that's why they got like a 30, some odd, right, I think 31 or
33 and it might change with thenew budget year right, sales
tax.
So wells branch, they take ahalf cent.
They have a library, theywanted to build a library with
that half cent in the etj.
They have cap metro.
We want transit right, so thattwo percent is available for a
(04:48):
number of different things.
You can do for communitycolleges too, so.
But the people have to rise upand say do a petition and say,
hey, we want this half cent, onecent, right.
You can go down to an eighth ofa cent and delegate it.
In most places they're all attwo percent because everybody
figured out the rules andabsorbed it 10 years ago.
Nobody took that half cent inthe etj.
(05:09):
That's where esd2 came alongand said oh well, there's this
half cent in the etj.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Nobody has it right and so you grabbed it right and
there was a vote, and this isabout the 2010 to 2013, about
the 2010.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
The 2013.
Oh, the latest one.
Yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Well, I got to ask you what prompted you to get
involved in your localgovernment the way you are.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, I moved into Pflugerville in 2010.
Well, I moved into the area in2008 and bought a house in 2010
in the ETJ Actually has a RoundRock mailing address.
Green Ridge is the subdivision,but it was Pflugerville.
Etj Actually has a Round Rockmailing address.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Green Ridge is the subdivision but it was
Pflugerville ETJ.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Extra territorial jurisdiction you got it, which
simply meant that someday, if wewere to be part of a city, it
would be Pflugerville and notRound Rock, and our schools were
Pflugerville.
But we were just in the countyright and didn't pay any city
taxes.
But they were in the process ofannexing us, which means we
would become part of the cityand we would start paying a city
(06:11):
tax.
And I said, well, how much isthat going to cost me?
And they said about a thousanddollars.
My house was around 215,000 atthe time and, yeah, back then
the city tax rate was in the 60,I want to say 63 cents and it
was about $1,200 more.
So I don't escrow my taxes.
I pay them once a year andthat's per year.
(06:31):
Yep.
So in January I wrote a check.
I remember the first year wasabout $4,000.
And then the next year it wentup to $4,200.
And I was like, well, what am Igetting for this extra $1,200
that I'm paying to the city?
And nobody could really answerthat question.
(06:51):
And so I started researching itand looking into it and they
said, well, you'd be part of thecity of Pflugerville, you get
Pflugerville services, and whatis that?
And it turns out it's oh,pflugerville police.
Right, when you call 911, youwant the police to come at your
door instead of the countysheriff coming at your door.
And the complaint was, whensomebody needed the police, it
(07:13):
was the county sheriff and itcould take 15, 20 minutes, where
the city of Pflugerville wouldbe a lot less time.
Well, I did test it the firstyear, really, and they were.
The knock on our door one nightcalled them.
They were there in 60 minutes,or, yeah, six minutes, wow.
And I was like, oh, wow, thisis great.
And it's like you must not havemuch to do, because I used to
(07:34):
live in michigan and I've had myhouse broken into and they
would never come out, and thiswas flint michigan, so it's not
the best part of town, but youpay for additional police, okay,
well, that sounds like that'sworth it for better police.
And so I just startedresearching the city and signed
up for city council meetings tolisten to them.
Just to know, you know, am Igetting my $1,200 a year more in
(07:57):
services to be part of the city, and I wanted to live in an
affordable place.
That's why I chose this ETJarea at the time, and my number
one thing was to try to keep itaffordable as much as possible,
and so whenever they would talkabout taxes property taxes if I
(08:22):
felt it was unjust, then I wouldstart speaking out at city
council meetings.
Actually, my first meeting Ispoke out at was in 2010, at a
school board meeting.
That school board meeting, itwas in the paper I read that the
school board wanted to raisethe debt service to the state
maximum, which is 50 cents, andI was like what the heck?
(08:42):
Why do they want to charge amaximum school debt rate?
And it turns out nobody else inthe area charged 50 cents.
And I was like what the heck?
Why do they want to charge themaximum school debt rate?
And it turns out nobody else inthe area charged 50 cents.
Austin I see what's much lower.
Round Rock I see what's muchlower.
And I remember going there andspeaking out and you know they
still ended up doing it.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
But at least you were paying attention.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I was starting to pay attention, yeah yeah, I asked
the questions and so years later, 2016, I started going to city
council member meetings and cityof Pflugerville actually at the
time they were lowering theirtax rates.
So Jeff Coleman was the mayorand was at 60 cents and he ran
on a platform of, hey, we'regoing to lower the rate, and it
(09:20):
steadily.
For like eight years 2010 to2018, they kept on lowering the
rate.
It didn't mean we paid lesscity taxes because of our
valuation, but they startedlowering it.
But then, around 2016, 17, theystarted increasing the rate.
And then that's when I spoke upat city council meetings.
I got to know all the citycouncil members and I actually
(09:43):
got them to keep the rate thesame one year and I was the only
speaker.
I was like hey why are weraising the rate?
Our property values are risingand you're increasing the rate.
I don't see any need for that.
And since I was the only oneand it was like my first meeting
I was kind of in the honeymoonperiod they actually went the,
(10:04):
they actually went against staffand lowered it and I was like,
wow, this does work if you speakout and get involved.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But you have to educate yourself for that to
work and that takes.
So one great thing about you isyou've got a good demeanor and
you've got the experience acrossseveral avenues that you can
kind of explain this really well.
So for our listeners, can youbriefly run through?
How did we get to where we aretoday with the fire department?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yeah, so that's a long drawn-out story over 10
years.
I'll try to be concise.
So 10 years ago, in 2013, wehad our ESD.
They had two primary revenuestreams a property tax of $0.10
and a sales tax of a half a cent.
(10:52):
We were growing at the time in2013, and felt like they needed
more money, and they actuallywent to the city council saying,
hey, you guys are growing, canyou give us some extra money to
help subsidize our service?
Well, the city council said no,their tax rate was very high
and they didn't want to pay anymore money.
(11:14):
They couldn't do it.
They're like we don't handleemergency services.
That's your role.
So ESD2 said, okay, the city'snot going to give us any money.
They actually tried to do anoverlay back then, but the
county commissioner said no,right, because, as it turns out,
the city council at times wereso against it that the county
(11:36):
commissioner said right, we'renot going to do an overlay.
Let's add another sales tax ofa half cent to the areas in
ESG-2 that wasn't charging asales tax.
And so that was the secondsales tax election that passed
by six votes, and I wasn'treally paying attention to the
(11:59):
time.
It was 2013.
And actually I was fightingAustin City Council for Uber.
I was in Uber trying to comearound and they I was fighting
Austin City Council for Uber.
Oh wow, uber was trying to comearound and they wanted to shut
it down, and I was kind of inthat battle in my political
career.
So, anyways, so ESD2 got thatsecond sales tax and they said
(12:21):
at the time and correct me ifI'm wrong that it was for ALS
Ambulance Life Support Systemand there's some debate whether
it included ambulance transportor not, but I think we can agree
that the amount of money theygot from that was a windfall.
I think in your previouspodcast you said it was a
blowout.
It turned into millions ofdollars and in 2017, they
(12:45):
decided to hey, we got all thismoney, we should do something
with it, which was let's add onsome ambulances and let's do
transport in addition to ALS.
So ESD2 started doing ambulancetransport in 2017, 18, 19, 20.
Transport in 2017, 18, 19, 20.
(13:11):
And in 2020, what happened wasand I've been thinking about
whose fault this is, and I'mgoing to say it's your
counselor's fault we passed SB2in 2019, the state legislature,
which lowered how much you canincrease property taxes by three
and a half percent.
And I think your counseladvised ESD2, hey, if we don't
do something right now, you'regoing to be running out of money
.
And they came up with theseforecasts and they asked again
(13:31):
the city hey, we need some money$2.7 million to continue to do
ambulance transport services,and if we don't get it we won't
be able to do it.
Well, city council at that timesaid no, won't be able to do it
.
Well, city council at that timesaid no, we don't think you
need it.
And so you guys, esd2, wentback to the county commission.
Let's do an overlay.
(13:52):
They did an overlay, but thecity had to give consent.
The city didn't give consent,so they only had a election in
the other areas outside the city.
It was created ESD17, primarilyin the areas outside the city.
It was created ESD 17,primarily in the Wells Branch
area.
Then ESD 2 used a loophole thatsaid, well, now that it's
(14:12):
created, we can just annexwithout city consent.
And so we had an election inthe city and it failed.
And then, after it failed, thatwas when the threats of losing
our ambulance transport serviceshappened.
Right, it wasn't, we'll say, itwasn't ESD-2, but it was
community members.
(14:32):
Firefighters outside of ESD-2threatened to stop the ambulance
service, which you know.
The board said that they wouldif they didn't, if it didn't
pass and the city didn't give asubsidy.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
And to add some, context, once 17 passed right
and some people were paying forambulance service, the really
ESD 2 couldn't continue toprovide it.
Right, that was under thepurview of ESD 17.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
There's some debate in state law, but generally, yes
, if you have another districtthat is providing service, then
other districts couldn't.
But in actuality, esd-17 was afront, it was a board that met,
but they outsourced everythingto ESD-2.
Esd-2 was still providing theambulance transport service.
(15:20):
They're the first responders,they're providing basic life
support.
They just weren't taking themthe last mile right.
They weren't hitching a ride,even though they show up and
they do all the basic stuff,right.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They just weren't giving them the ride and so
right and to be fair that islike, uh, you know, you're
familiar with scope creep, youknow where, you know, okay, we
got called, call thefirefighters, all right, they
patch them up.
All right, they stabilize them,you know at what point, like
does the actual transport?
You know, does that comeoutside the scope of what a fire
department does, you know?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Well, probably A traditional fire department.
You just put out fire.
That's what you are for.
But I would say, legally, thelegal name is Travis County
Emergency Service District.
There's no fire in there,there's no ambulance in there,
there's no rescue, it'semergency services collect a tax
(16:26):
and the board decides do youspend it on fire, do you spend
it on rescue, do you spend it onambulance?
And it's totally at theirdiscretion.
Yeah, the initial intent manyyears ago was a fire department.
But I'm good, I'm glad that theboard saw the need for
ambulance, because medicalservices is.
You look at the previousnumbers, it's like four to one,
three to one.
There's many more medicalservice requests than fire,
(16:49):
which is great.
Buildings aren't burning downbut people are having health
issues.
So if I were on the board, whynot shift some of that funding
to more paramedics thanfirefighters?
Because that's where the needis, and I think some of the
board members are kind of stuck.
Well, we originally, wheneverit was 30 years ago, set up this
fire department.
(17:09):
But the need is in medical.
So you can adjust, you canchange right and and they should
have, and you guys, and theydid right you started providing.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
you know you had four ambulances right, and we talked
about it in the first podcast.
That's out.
But you know that's where thecounty came in and you were
talking about the differencebetween sheriff and municipal.
Just the time to get anambulance out here was an issue.
Do you recall anything aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Right, right.
Well, I hear that the countyhad two ambulance stations and
ESD-2 would supplement that.
I think that was the intent.
Yes, but I think the reality isit's Austin-Travis County EMS,
right, and most of the action isin Austin.
So if you have a shared pool ofambulances, I want to say they
(17:58):
have what?
30 or 40.
Right.
It's going to get sucked intoAustin, because that's where the
action is.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Just like if it was the Pflugerville.
Travis County, you could expectthem to get sucked into the
Pflugerville and this is kind oflike when I did my Uber days.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Same thing, right.
People need transport indowntown Austin.
You naturally get sucked intothat, and probably Pflugerville
is, you know.
There's 65,000, 70,000 people.
Austin is 800,000 now, so allof the action is always going to
be in the densely populatedareas.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
The more densely populated it is, the more
services you require, andthey'll suck away that.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
But if you want the best service, you want dedicated
, localized service as much aspossible, and I can see why
Austin Travis decided to pullthem.
But maybe they would argue andthis is a question for them is
were they really pulled away orwere they just pulled away
because there was not enoughaction?
In Pflugerville?
Our recent prime minister saidthe same thing.
(18:55):
You guys don't need three orfour ambulances, you only need
two.
Right, and if you want it free,then you only have two.
But the city decided to pay $1.3 million just to have one on
standby, just in case, right,and it won't be pulled because
it's just in the city ofpflugerville, right?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
and that has to do with what we would call level
zero.
Like you know, however deepyour ambulances are, like you've
got three.
Once you want three calls popat the same time.
Now you've got none, so four isbetter, and I think really five
would even be better than that.
But it all has dollars andcents, right?
You've got to pay for every oneof those, right, right?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
It's a cost of doing it.
You don't want burnout, right,Austin Travis?
They're probably going from onecall to another because they
just have enough to meet thecurrent demand and nobody wants
burnout from their firstresponders.
So there needs to be somedowntime and you need some extra
capacity just waiting there.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Absolutely Well.
Anthony, let's say it's fastforward to November.
The sales tax if it getsrepealed and the voters vote yes
for Prop A, what do you thinkis going to happen with that
money?
Vote yes for Prop A.
What do you think is going?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
to happen with that money?
Well, if voters vote yes, thenit will free up a half cent in
the district for some otherentity to grab it.
Most likely the city hasexpressed interest to take it.
They would be a fool not totake it, but they can't just
take it.
They can call an election forit and then take it.
They would be a fool not totake it, but they can't just
take it.
They can call an election forit and then take it.
(20:28):
If it passes, then they'll getit.
And the intent of this drive, asI understand it, is that they
would take it for emergencyservices and I would hope that
they would take it and negotiatewith ESD2.
Nobody wants to set up theirown EMS system, fire department.
(20:52):
That doesn't make sense.
We've already made thatinvestment with Travis County
ESD2.
So you give it back to them,some portion of it.
But now the city will be in abetter negotiating standpoint
because they're collecting themoney and ESD2 will have to
itemize the cost and there'll bea little bit more control on
(21:14):
those costs because the city iscollecting it and it won't be
just a rate, a half cent rate orpercentage rate that you get
where there's no caps, it'll bemore defined and now that it's
in the hands of the city,they're elected leaders.
If we don't like them, you know?
(21:34):
I have all their phone numbers,I can talk to them.
I can go to city council membersand kick them out With the ESD2
board.
I can't really talk to them,right?
They're not elected, right?
They are appointed by thecounty commissioners and the
county commissioners.
They have a vested interest inmore ESDs because they're really
(21:55):
responsible for ambulanceservices, so, but they have many
demands for roads and safetyand so if they can have more.
Esd2s, then they don't have toworry about Invest so much in
the mess.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
That's interesting.
I hadn't really thought aboutit like that Right.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
So if you're, you know, and I've been watching
their meetings, just like inmost of the ESD2 meetings, it's
like yes, it's like unanimous.
We all five agree.
We all five agree.
Right, they never have anydissension.
They don't really debate, atleast with city council.
There's a lot of four, threedecisions and they debate all
night long on issues.
So at least there's a propervetting of it.
(22:31):
And I don't get the sense thatESDs do that.
They're just there to you know,a stepping stone to the next,
you know next job.
Right, april, I think, ran forcity council.
Rico tried to run for houserepresentative.
Right, it's like a steppingstone and they're not really
doing it for the right reasons.
I sometimes feel.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Oh, I don't know, I don't know.
I mean I'll encourage listenersto go on and like, look at
their resumes, because there'spretty.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Have you looked?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
at the resumes of the .
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I meanthey're pretty impressive people
.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
No, no, yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, I'm not, you know,
I know rico, right, I was onthe travis didn't go to harvard.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, he's a harvard graduate so smart, smart guy,
smart guy and an ambitious guy,I would say so anthony, you said
so many good things that I haveto.
I don't want to run over ontime but I have to go back on um
.
So you said the city would keepa portion of that and then try
to negotiate with the firedepartment to provide the other
service.
I think.
What do you think about, likeas a taxpayer, if I pay part of
(23:34):
my taxes to esd?
I know that that money is goingtowards, you know, public
safety in my community.
Does it make you uncomfortablethat part of your tax dollars
would go to a city and then youwouldn't really know how many of
those would go back into yourpublic safety?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Definitely, yeah, I mean, I'm an equal opportunity
critic of all governmententities.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I know you are yes.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
So it is a risk that the city would get it and they
would spend it on a water park,a city hall, a municipal center.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We don't have time to explain to the listeners, but
listeners, Google everythingthat Anthony just said.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
He's very on it.
Think that the council memberswant the best emergency services
as a whole and that they woulddo the right thing and spend it
on emergency services right,because that is the intent of
the petitioners is to put thecity in a better spot to
(24:41):
negotiate reasonable rates, andwe don't want Travis County ESD
2 to go away.
Put the city in a better spotto negotiate reasonable rates
and we don't want Travis CountyESD 2 to go away.
Right, they've been doing aphenomenal job up until they
stopped transporting and let'scontinue to have you guys do
that.
And this debate, when I look atit, is really about an opinion
(25:03):
Do we have enough money or not?
Right, right, and the board atESD2 is saying, no, we don't.
We need a subsidy $2.7 millionand the city and their
consultants say you got enoughmoney and why can't we get
(25:24):
together and go?
Well, maybe we do, and if youactually start going in the red,
then you ask for money.
But right now, when you look atthe books, when I look at, my
opinion is that it sure doesseem like you have enough money
and those forecasts from 2020said that you would be in the
red this year, next year, butthere's like 40 million in the
bank.
You increased your reservepolicy from you know I think it
(25:46):
was three months to six months,so you have a significant
reserve.
So 2.7 million that you'reasking for the city is chump
change.
So why not continue to officeservice?
And I don't think this wholeeffort would have happened if
ambulance services ceased toexist For sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, I think if they had kept running it we wouldn't
be talking about it.
What's the city's annualoperating budget?
Is it $80 or?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
$90 million, depending on how you look at it.
Right, they have utilities,which is yeah in the 80s and 90s
, but just for the property tax,for the city police parks, I
want to say it's 50 60 million.
It goes up every year and Istopped looking at it the last
couple of years, but yes thereason why I say that is I hear
(26:34):
people say like well why,doesn't the est just absorb it?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
but the city is such a bigger entity.
I don't understand why don'tthey meet halfway or why doesn't
the city absorb it.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Well, the city has its own challenges.
Right, they were set up, theywould argue.
They're only set up for police,roads, parks, right those
things.
And fire and ambulance itwasn't in their purview.
It was the county forambulances and we had ESD2 for
fire.
So they never handled it before, they were never required to
(27:07):
handle it, they were nevermandated.
They were asked in 2013, 10years ago.
The city said no.
They were asked again in 2020.
The city said no Because youknow they were and this is some
you know they don't want tochange, just like you know.
Maybe the old timers at ESDTsaid we're a fire department, we
don't want to change and thecity's like we're a city yeah
we're just a city and so we allserve the community, and so
(27:37):
we've got to think what's thebest for the community and keep
that in mind.
And I think there's been a lotof bad blood on both sides over
the years, that I think egoshave gotten in the way of having
a solution that everybody canagree upon.
Everybody's just fixated onwhat they think is right.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Everybody's loved ones live here.
Everybody's got people theycare about.
Nobody wants bad first responsefor sure.
All right, so you're like yousaid.
You're an equal opportunitycritic.
In your opinion, who's thebetter steward of taxpayer
dollars, either city ofPflugerville or ESD2?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
In this case because I can unelect my city council
members.
I would say that the city,because I can talk to them and I
can vote them out.
I can't vote out the ESD2commissioners.
If I had it my way, there was abill that was working through.
If we had elected ESD2commissioners, then that
(28:42):
probably would work for me.
It'd be a good compromise.
Like they do in Houston andparts of the state, they
actually have elected ESD 2commissioners so that if we
don't like what they're doing,we can kick them out.
Right.
In this case it's taxationwithout representation.
Right, they're taxing us, butwe can't kick them out and the
county commissioners won't.
So it's just a quasi board thatgets together and just approves
(29:03):
everything.
They never reject anything,they hardly debate, and so in
the framework that we have rightnow, I would say I would take
my chances with the city, eventhough I don't like a lot of
decisions that they made.
I think there is a chance thatthey would take the money and
spend it on other things thataren't emergency services.
But at least I can go talk tothem and speak out, and because
(29:27):
I have been able to affectchange with them over the years,
I see my chances of affectingchange with them better than the
board at ESD2, which right theygenerally.
I've never seen them go againststaff recommendations and they
have public comment, but I feellike it's just a show.
I haven't ever seen them changetheir mind because of something
(29:50):
that somebody said a publiccomment but I have seen that
happen at city council membersand I have talked a number of
times and, yeah, over the yearsthey actually have lowered the
tax rate.
But has that ever happened at anESD2 meeting?
Probably not.
Has people talked at thosemeetings?
Probably not.
Well, they have lowered the taxrate, but has that ever
happened at an ESD2 meeting?
Probably not.
Have people talked at thosemeetings?
Probably not.
Well, they have lowered the taxrate Right, but lower it beyond
(30:11):
what staff recommended, right?
So in the city council meetings, right, staff would recommend
this and they would actually goagainst them.
And actually the first time Idid that, the city manager left
and went to Galveston and I kindof felt like he was pissed when
he went against his way.
But ESD2 have lowered the taxrate over the last three years
(30:34):
but it wasn't really because ofthe board saying hey, we want a
lower rate.
It was because city staffpresented a lower rate and they
just said okay and because ofthe laws SB3 that said they
couldn't raise it by 3.5%.
So they were just following thelaws and there's some
complexities in there why theyhad to lower it.
(30:55):
But yeah, if the current ratecollects more than 3.5%, then
they have to lower it and that'swhy they were lowering it,
because the law dictated thatthey had to.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Did you get a chance to look at the Perryman report
that asserted that ESDs weremore efficient model than
municipal?
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I went over that quickly and the details were a
little bit lacking, but mysummary read of it was that ESDs
are more cost effective thanmunicipally run emergency
service district.
I would love to ask them howthey calculated the cost of a
(31:33):
municipal, because in amunicipal all you know is the
overall city tax rate, which ishigher, the overall city tax
rate which is higher, right?
So I don't think they break itout by tax rate that, oh, this
is.
They claim that it was 12 to 18cents for municipal, but they
didn't really explain how theydetermined that number, because
(31:55):
I've looked at others, likeRound Rock, and they don't say,
oh, we spent X amount.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I know Round Rock is in the 30 cent area for their
overall city budget, but that'sfor police, parks, roads and
they do fire, but how do you?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
know what is a percentage of the fire?
I guess you could look at thebudget.
Did they look at the budget,look at the cost and then
converted it to a tax rate?
But in general, let's say thatit's true that ESDs are more
efficiently run.
I would say instinctuallythat's probably correct because
(32:31):
you're focused.
You're focused on doinggenerally a limited set of
services emergency response,where the city can do a lot of
different things, includingemergency response, where the
city can do a lot of differentthings, including emergency
response.
And when you raise more money,you have to spend more money on
management and overhead, so thatcosts more money.
I do generally believe in morelocalized control of government.
(32:57):
Where you focus on one thingwill generally be more cost
effective than trying to do toomuch at one Right a broad scope.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
The broader it is, the less efficient it becomes
generally be more cost effectivethan trying to do too much at
once.
Right a broad scope.
The broader it is, the lessefficient it becomes.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Right, you just have to hire just way more overhead
to manage it and that costs alot more money and everybody's
covering their butt.
So they tend to spend moremoney and I see what has
happened to the city right.
The amount that they pay forthings is just ungodly in some
cases.
So in general, yes, the moreyou can focus, the more you can
get services down to the locallevels.
(33:29):
They're the same.
All politics is local.
I do believe in that and um andthat.
I'll say this one thing on thisI was on my hoa board and they
wanted to install a pool, foryou know, we had some extra
money and people wanted a pool.
When I looked at the cost oflike in my house at the time, it
(33:49):
was like $50,000.
So I looked at it for HOA andthey said, oh no, we can't do a
residential pool, it has to beADA compliant, all this stuff.
And it was like $180,000.
I'm like why he's like well,that's just what it is.
And so whenever you bring inpeople, government, entities,
with more money, they'll find away to spend it and make it cost
(34:12):
more, and you see that all thetime.
So, really efficient governmentis not too big, not too small,
but in the middle ground.
And trying to achieve thatmiddle ground where you get all
the services you want but it'snot exorbitant or less, is
really the point.
And so in my activism I alwaystry to find that middle ground
(34:35):
that we can have everything wewant, but not pay too much, but
not be too small.
Where we're ineffective and youknow, are we there now, right,
an argument could be said well,maybe ESD2 is too big, right,
they got, you know, they got allthis money and they found a
reason to spend it.
So maybe we should centralizeit to the city, right, but maybe
the city's too big right.
(34:56):
What is the optimal size?
And that's an art, that's, youknow, a delicate balancing act
that we're all trying to achieve, and you know it's an opinion
at the end of the day, I knowwith the fire department.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Everything you buy, if you put like rescue for fire
use, for some magical reasonit's twice the price.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Yeah, it's pretty wild, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I know you've gotten into the ESD2 budget.
That Perryman report said thatthe Pflugerville Fire Department
was the second most efficientfire department in the region.
What do you think about how theboard has spent the case?
I didn't see that in thatreport.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
I remember a meeting where your chief talked about
that, and so I can't really givean opinion.
That report that you sent mewas just about overall ESDs
compared to municipalities.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Because I looked for that, because I wanted to see
how they arrived at that number,but that wasn't in that one
report.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
All right.
So I know you've looked at theESD2 budget.
What do you think about howthey've spent money in it?
Speaker 1 (36:05):
budget.
What do you think about howthey've spent money in it?
Well, as I said, I do thinkthat they have collected a lot
more sales tax than theyrealized, and you know they
found places to spend it righton additional ambulances, which
are, you know.
I don't know why they cost asmuch as they do.
It's like everything, butthey're like an F-150 truck
right which is under $100,000,but you put ambulance in, it's
(36:26):
$600, $800, even $1 million,right, I guess, to be fair, it's
an F-550, so I don't know whatthose go for, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
But I tell you you put a box on the back of that
thing, it gets very expensive,that's for, you know, I'd like
to think that they are trying tobe conservative, they're
looking at the future.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Maybe they're being too worrisome about the future
and have you know they have anumber of vacancies, right, I
think I heard a figure over 100.
If you include the cadets, it'seven more, and so if you don't
hire them, that's your biggestcost.
So you have a lot of savingsthey call it vacancy savings
(37:08):
that you pad the budget with butyou never really fill it.
So you have these reservesevery year, and so when you cry
wolf, that oh, we need moremoney you know that I don't like
that, because they do have themoney.
So just continue to do theservices for the fees and taxes
(37:33):
you're already collecting, and Ithink everyone would be happy.
And let bygones be bygones.
Whatever happened in the past,just let it go, and I think you
guys will be fiscally solventgoing forward.
Because when I looked at thenumbers and the city has looked
at the numbers you have thefunds to do it and you're
(37:53):
already showing up.
So why can't you just go?
You have to get the ambulanceback to your station.
Why can't you just take it tothe hospital?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Right, right.
Well, I mean to be fair.
The ambulance isn't going Ifthey're not transporting though.
It's just a fire apparatus, butright now.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Right now.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Right, right For sure .
All right, Anthony, let me askyou a question.
Given what you know from yourexperience on PCDC and
everything else, how much hasthe city staff impacted where we
are today?
How much has the city staff?
Speaker 1 (38:28):
impacted where we are today.
Well, I think staff iseverything right.
Staff recommendations to theseboards and city council members.
95% of2 board was asking thecity, which will ask staff hey,
(38:49):
can we afford $2.7 million?
They're going to be like no, Igot all these roadways, I got
all these things to fund and Idon't have $2.7 million when
they literally have over $500million in the bank.
You include all the bonds, buteven in the reserves it's you
know 2.7 million.
They could afford it if theywanted to, but it's you know.
(39:12):
They treat it like it's theirmoney, right, just like the esd2
says well, we're a firedepartment and that's all we're
supposed to be, right.
They're kind of dug in that andthe city should pay something,
right.
So when you ask our city staffcity manager you know, can I
have $2.7 million?
She's going to be like no, we'venever paid a subsidy, we've
(39:32):
never done it.
So they're going to recommendno, and that will sway heavily
on the council, right?
The city manager doesn't wantto do it, so we're going to say
no.
They'll say that they looked atthe numbers and they don't need
it, and so, generally, that'swhere I found you have to work
if you really want things done.
It's the administrators, thecity managers, the chief.
(39:54):
You got to convince them thateverything will be okay and
they'll go along, especially ifyou don't have a strong board,
if you don't have strong councilthat fights back, that pushes
back and challenges them.
Well then, 99% of theirrecommendations just get
approved.
So we have to convince them togive a little or push back at
(40:16):
council meetings.
But that's tough, right.
There's the old phrase you knownever fight city hall, and I
have done it, and it is not easy, right, you got to put yourself
out there.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Not too many people can say that, but you can.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
And it's not easy.
But yeah.
But you know I seldom ever talkto staff, but I realize that's
where the recommendations.
But I say, hey, you know, Ibelieve power to the people and
they call these public meetings,so that's your opportunity to
talk and everyone needs to usethat power to talk to them.
And I found at least my citycouncil will listen to me, not
(40:52):
all the time but generally.
You know over the years theyhave listened and they will do
the right thing Well that'sencouraging.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
I think maybe if more people, you think, if more
people got involved, it wouldmake a difference Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Because those city council?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
meetings get pretty sparse in there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It's tough and there is definitely a honeymoon period
, because I've seen them changetheir vote on this annexation on
Rowe Lane, where this lady saidI don't want this development.
She had never talked before.
So if it's your first timetalking, they'll give you a
honeymoon, they'll give youdeference and they'll side your
way.
And, yeah, they didn't approvethe zoning change.
(41:30):
Interesting, because she didn'twant it.
Because they do, they'reelected leaders.
They feel a little bit ofpolitical pressure and they will
change now over the years.
You know I spoke so much after awhile it's like oh, it's
anthony again, and so now Iprobably wore I've, you know,
worn out my welcome, if you will, and so you feel like you're
less effective now than you were10 years ago well, I've shifted
(41:53):
in in my approach right toadjust, so I don't speak out as
much on city council as I usedto, but I like to think, you
know, like doing this and otherthings, I still try to stay
involved where I can to make adifference, and there's many
ways to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It's not just coming on and explaining some of this
stuff makes a huge difference.
Yeah, and I've done a bunch ofthese podcasts online too.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
So I try to diversify , but use your voice and
especially if you've neverspoken right, if they see you,
they're like oh, I haven't seenthis point of view.
And with the esd, if they gotsome additional people right,
because you know, if it's alwaysthe same people talking, it's
just like, oh, it's, it's thatperson again and you do wear out
your welcome and I've been soinvolved so long that you know I
(42:45):
have worn out my welcome,unfortunately, but I'm still
trying to make it, still findingways to be impactful.
Yes, that's great.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
So one thing that I know that the county or the ESD2
Board of Commissioners has doneis allow the fire chief to talk
to the city manager about taxrevenue sharing.
Have you looked into or heardanything about that?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I have not heard anything about that.
I don't know how that wouldwork because the revenue, at
least for sales tax, is decidedby the state comptroller.
So whenever the last electionwas, it goes to that entity.
But if you're saying that theywould just agree to share it,
then I think that's fine If thishappens to go through and the
(43:34):
city gets it.
Well now, yeah, we'll behopefully.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
There definitely will be some sharing.
There'll be some sharing.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
I hope there's a meeting of the minds and they
come to an agreement.
Of course they'll disagree onthe number, but we definitely
don't want to lay off anybodyfrom ESD2.
And we want to continue ourservices and bring back
ambulance.
I don't think anybody is happywith the privates, although I
(44:01):
don't want to demean them.
I think they're adequatelytrained, just about everybody
else.
But they do have a differentincentive structure to reap
profits that ESD2 doesn't.
But the city was kind of forcedinto that situation when Travis
County ESD2 said they weren'tgoing to transport anymore so
they had to put somebody inthere.
(44:23):
But I don't think they wantedto do that.
And and you saw the last citycouncil members there was some
wavering right like the mayor hewas, you know he wanted a whole
yeah, we should give people.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
If you're listening, you got time, pull up the city
website.
It was, I believe.
The may 28th city councilmeeting is very interesting to
watch yeah, yeah, and and and.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
So we did have unexpected death.
I think you guys call it asentinel event with the privates
.
So you know, there's a point.
It probably could happen toanybody, but it happened on
their watch.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
I gotta stop you there, it's never happened no,
it's never happened, where thecoroner says that the cause of
death was from improper ems oh,oh, okay, all right, all right.
Yeah, no, we have, but you lostlies right, yeah, but there's a
huge difference between uhtrying to save someone and not
being able to, and literallyokay that was a mistake, but
that person was let go.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
They're no longer working, for I forget.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
It's arcadia, or allegiance, yeah and yeah so
that was definitely bad Right.
We all agree that was bad and Ithink there's a lot of reasons
outside the scope of this show.
I yes it would be better, but Ithink no one's arguing that
Right, we just got to figure outhow to make it happen.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Are you worried that there isn't a mechanism for the
fire department to expand withthe city If they're capped by
the House Bill 2 and lose thesales tax revenue?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
No, because if we get inflation back to where it was
before 2022, it was only one anda half two percent, and for
most of that time the cap was 8%, and so most ESDs raised their
property taxes by 8%, 10%, no,well, they could raise their
(46:15):
property taxes by a percent ofthe previous year, but yeah,
minus the cap.
So if you hit the 10 cent capthen you can raise even more.
So it went from 8 8 to 3.5,with the 3.5 only for the
largest esds in texas, which areonly like three, and esd2 was
(46:35):
one of them, because I think thelimit was 15 million.
I don't we can look it up, butif your revenue was more than 15
million some minimum numberthen you're subject to it all
the other ones they could stillgo to eight percent because
they're much smaller.
So that's how they bracketedthat law.
Even though that's cap rightand that's what your council
(46:56):
likes to focus on, sales taxesare not capped right.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Sales taxes sky's the limit and that's why it was
less than a million to now youknow, we're looking at like $10
million.
I think it's $17 million.
$17 million, right.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
It's significant and those have been rising
significantly and when I lookedat it it was huge.
Yeah, it was nothing, and nowit's in the millions of dollars
and it's far outpaced yourproperty tax revenue which, yeah
, now it's kept at 3.5%.
So if we're growing, if we'readding more home, those people
are paying property taxes,they're spending more money in
(47:34):
the community and that sales taxwill also increase and that
should be enough to sustain andmaintain.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
What if that sales tax is eliminated in November?
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Well, that will be a hit.
Yeah, that will be a hit to howmuch you can generate, because
you'll only be getting a half acent in the areas outside of the
city.
But hopefully the city picks itup and then they'll be.
They should be more thanwilling to give a portion of
that back for emergency services, right?
(48:08):
Either that you know, the worstcase is they would set up their
own, but that doesn't make anysense.
To set up their own, right?
We already have theinfrastructure in place.
I'm sure they will do the rightthing and the ESD2 board will
agree to an amount that isagreeable by both sides and just
give that money back.
Right, that's the only thingthat makes sense.
Doesn't make any sense, right?
(48:29):
People are saying, oh well,yeah, there doesn't make it.
Yeah, you're right, it doesn'tmake any sense for the city to
establish their own.
We already have the buildings,the infrastructure, the people,
their trainees just utilize them.
If the worst case happens andthey don't agree on them out and
the city has to do it all,right you guys won't be laid off
(48:53):
because, all right, let's saysomehow they find the money well
, they'll have to pass a bond,they'll have to pass a bond and
buy it, but the people are laidoff in this theoretical
standpoint.
They'll just go there.
Right?
You got, I think you said inyour last podcast, and I agree
there is more vacancies andemergency service responders
than any other job besides,maybe teachers.
So you'll just go work for them, so nobody needs to be worried
(49:17):
about losing their job.
You just might be working at adifferent agency.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, I think if you, I gotta get you to ride along
because you're such, if you, Igot to get you to ride along
because you're such a smart guy,I need to get you to absorb
more with the fire department.
But it would take.
I think your scenario that youjust described would probably be
true, but would take three tofour years to make happen.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Yeah but it would be asinine if they actually tried
to set up their own.
It doesn't really make sense.
We have the infrastructurealready in place.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
And that's what they would have to do if the city and
the ESD2 board.
It could be possible but itwould cost more money.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I don't want anything that costs more money,
especially since we've alreadypaid for that infrastructure.
That's.
The other option is they canbuy it from ESD2.
All right, we'll buy this andthen take it over.
But why do we need to do that?
Just come to agreement and letthe current people that are
doing the work, that have done agreat job, continue to do it.
(50:21):
And you know, stop debatingover over.
We feel we need more money.
That's what it's kind of comedown to.
And everybody has plenty ofmoney, from what I've seen, more
money than they know what to dowith.
But if you're given the chance,they'll figure out a reason to
spend it.
And the city obviously hasfigured out a reason to spend it
(50:43):
and ESD too has.
But just live within your means,like we all have to right, we,
we all have a job and we have abudget and we live within our
means.
Yeah, we would like more.
There's always things that youknow we can wish, we would like,
but you know, everybody has tolive under constraints and I
(51:06):
think our governments need to dothe same.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
All right, Anthony.
So, given everything that youknow and you definitely know a
lot about this from thisNovember, whether to abolish the
sales tax revenue for the firedepartment, how are you going to
vote, If you don't mind sayingyeah, I'll vote for it.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You know I'm hoping that it's a shift right, but
it's a two-step process becauseof the laws of the state.
We have to take it away fromone entity and then another
entity in the city should pickit up, and then the city can
give it back to ESD2 and ESD2can continue resuming the same
(51:50):
level of service with ambulancetransport, and everybody will be
happy, right.
So that's how I see it rightnow.
Ideally, I wish there was ameasure that we voted on our
commissioners and then I couldmaybe run or put people that I
know and help them be on thatboard to more work cooperatively
(52:12):
.
Right now I don't feel likethey're listening, there's not a
lot of cooperation.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, and they don't listen to the people.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
At least the city council members are willing to
listen and I think they'll dothe right thing.
So, yes, I'll vote for it, withthe planning that the city will
take that and be able toestablish emergency services,
(52:39):
hopefully with Travis CountyESD2, and nobody loses their
jobs and we can get rid of theprivate ambulance companies.
Esd-2 can continue to do itlike it was.
What is it now?
Two years ago, three years ago,and I think everybody would be
happy.
That would be nice.
There would be a lot of ifs inthat scenario?
Well, anthony man, I just lovethe way that you explain things.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
I think I'd love to get you to do some write-outs,
or something Sure, On myapparatus and man thank you for
coming on the show.
Yeah, no problem If we get somefollow-up questions or
something would you be willingto come back Anytime?
Speaker 1 (53:18):
All right, cool.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
All right, well, thank you so much.
Great thank you.
So.
So that wraps up our episode.
Thank you so much to ourlisteners for tuning in and
thank you to Anthony for takingtime out to come on the show.
And you know, if we don't doanything else, I think that what
we've really done is educateour community and, hopefully,
inspire other people to getinvolved and take leadership
(53:42):
roles.
You know, if you don't like howthings are going, you can
complain about it or you can dosomething about it, and
hopefully you've learned alittle bit more of how you can
make that happen.
We talked about sales tax andhow that works.
We talked about the challengeswith the budget and the
forecasting for the ESD, and wealso learned that the vote needs
to be a two-part process if anyof that money is gonna end up
(54:06):
going to fund EMS.
We also learned that there's asentiment from people who want
the ESD Board of Commissionersto be in an elected position.
Tune in next week because we'regoing to be talking to ESD2
Board of Commissioner VicePresident, april Griffin.
Commissioner.
Vice President, april Griffin.
She's going to talk about herperspective as a commissioner
(54:29):
and as a Pflugerville residentand how she sees this topic from
her perspective.
So tune in next week forPflugerville on Fire.
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