October 4, 2024 • 18 mins
How can Emergency Services Districts (ESDs) revolutionize public safety and economic development in growing communities? Join us on Pflugerville on Fire as we explore this vital question with Dr. Ray Perryman, an acclaimed economist. Discover the groundbreaking findings from the Perryman Group's study, which reveals that ESDs, like Travis County ESD 2, offer a remarkably cost-effective solution for emergency services compared to municipal fire departments. Through detailed comparisons and insightful analysis, Dr. Perryman demonstrates how well-managed resources and financial flexibility have transformed Pflugerville's fire department into a model of efficiency and taxpayer benefit.
In this episode, we also dive into the significant role of public safety in the economic growth of rapidly expanding areas such as Pflugerville and Central Texas. Learn about the major developments, including the new Samsung factory and Tesla facility, and their profound impact on the local economy. Dr. Perryman emphasizes the importance of maintaining robust financial reserves and strategic resource allocation to ensure effective fire protection in areas with varying population densities. This conversation underscores the critical link between public safety infrastructure and sustainable economic development, providing valuable insights for legislators and community stakeholders. Tune in to understand how ESDs could be the key to unlocking both safety and prosperity in your community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (00:08):
When we compared you to the cities who
try to do it themselves in thegeneral vicinity that are about
the same size, we're talking,you know, almost half the cost,
and we probably weren't evencapturing all the cost in the
other cities.
So that tells us that it's beena well-managed thing.
I know you had a chief that wassomewhat legendary in the area
for a number of years and youhave great leadership now, but
(00:29):
it shows a consistent pattern ofgood, strong management,
managing resources well, makingwise investments at the
appropriate time, having thefinancial flexibility to allow
you to do that.
Really, a lot of things playsinto this.
Chris Wolff (00:44):
Welcome back to this week's episode of
Pflugerville on Fire.
On the show today we have DrRay Perryman.
A proper introduction wouldtake way too long to do so.
Instead, I'm just going to saygo ahead and Google Ray Perryman
.
Basically, he's got a Bachelorof Science in Mathematics from
Baylor University, a PhD inEconomics from Rice.
He's got an honorary doctoratefrom the International Institute
(01:08):
of Advanced Studies.
He's a university professor ofeconomics.
He's authored books and over400 academic papers.
He's the president and CEO ofthe Perryman Group.
He's been called a genius bythe Wall Street Journal and the
most quoted man in Texas byTexas Monthly.
Basically, this guy talks topresidents, governors, senators,
(01:28):
state elected officials, buttoday he's talking to all of us
about economics, of emergencyservices, districts and your
Pflugerville Fire Department,right here on Pflugerville, on
Fire.
Enjoy the show, all right.
So on the show.
Dr Perryman, thank you so muchfor coming on.
We appreciate it,
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (01:48):
my pleasure.
Chris Wolff (01:49):
So you have some tremendous accolades, including
the 2012 Texan of the Year isgiven by the Texas Legislative
Conference, the BaylorDistinguished Service Medal, the
Cesar E Chavez Legacy Award forHumanitarian Efforts, and that
is literally just to name a few.
We're trying to keep it a shortpodcast, but one that was my
(02:10):
favorite is the state's premierbarbecue connoisseur.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:16):
Yeah, I was quite fortunate the Dallas
Morning News hung that one on mea few years ago.
Chris Wolff (02:21):
That's an impressive accomplishment,
especially in the great state ofTexas.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:25):
Well you're right, you're right there
in central Texas.
You're in barbecue heaven, man,we are.
I tell you what.
Chris Wolff (02:30):
Oh, my goodness, I don't.
I don't need it enough.
I need to get out there more.
All right, so, sir, I amwanting to bring you on the show
specifically to talk about thestudy that you guys did on the
ESD economic impacts oncommunities.
Do you recall that study thatyou guys published?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:51):
It's been a few years, but yes, I do
recall that very vividly.
It was a very interesting study.
We were able to match pairsbetween ESDs and nearby cities
with similar population andcompare things in terms of cost
and efficiency, and it was avery enlightening study.
I learned a lot myself while wewere doing it.
Chris Wolff (03:07):
Well, that's great.
That is the question on the tipof everyone's tongue over here
in the city of Pflugerville.
There's a question about thesales tax revenue, whether it
should go to the fire department, whether they have too much
money, are they overspending?
And so let me ask in that ESDstudy that you guys did, was
Travis County ESD 2 included inthat?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (03:29):
Yes, it was Absolutely.
We tried to find as many as wecould where we had to have a
couple of things to make it work.
We had to have the data for theESD and they were quite
agreeable all over the state togive it to us, and then we had
to have data from nearby citiesso we could make some
comparisons of basically whatthe efficiency is, the cost,
(03:50):
relative cost, that type ofthing, and then what the benefit
or cost to taxpayers would beof adopting an ESD, and we ended
up with a sample that includedabout 2.8 million Texas
residents, so we had a very goodsample there to work with.
Chris Wolff (04:00):
That's amazing.
So what made you come to studyESDs and who funded that
research and how did that cometo be?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (04:08):
Well, it was funded by a group called
SAFE-D, and I don't recallexactly what the acronym is.
I'm sure you know it.
Chris Wolff (04:13):
I do yes,
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (04:16):
it's the group that the organization that
most of the ESDs in Texas aremembers of.
I think there's over 300 ofthese in Texas.
It's a very useful aspect ofour overall infrastructure that
we have in the state, and thisgroup asked me to get involved
and take a look at these thingsand just make some comparisons
for them so they couldcommunicate with legislators and
other constituencies about theefficiency of the work that they
(04:38):
do Well and that study came outin the year 2020, I believe,
and that is.
Chris Wolff (04:46):
it's so great that they did that, because those are
the same questions that I and alot of our listeners have.
So thank you so much for doingthat work.
So what?
What did you?
What were you able to glean?
And, as specific about TravisCounty, ESD number two as
possible, when you're comparingESD, that's pretty simple to do,
but when you try to break out,you know what is the cost of a
(05:08):
municipal fire department.
How does one go about doingthat?
Because it's a lot more layeredthan an ESD is.
It really is.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (05:16):
And it's challenging, to say the least.
We basically are dependent uponthe public filings and, of
course, most cities do maketheir financial information
available, but it's available invery different formats and very
different degrees ofspecificity and that sort of
thing.
So we had to look for thosethat where we could find an ESD
that had financial information,then nearby we would try to find
(05:38):
cities of somewhat comparablesize that did give us enough
financial information that wecould look at their cost as well
.
We did this in both 2020 and2022.
We did a couple of studies and,as you mentioned, travis ESD
number two was a part of thatanalysis and what we found with
respect to your particularsituation is that it was much
(06:00):
more efficient than the citiesaround it and we compared.
It was much more efficient thanthe cities around it and we
compared.
We had a number in TravisCounty and Williamson County
nearby, where you are, and ESDnumber two was among the most
efficient of that group in termsof its cost per person that it
served Now for the cities, eventhough it turned out to be
considerably more efficient forESD number two, we probably
(06:21):
didn't do you justice, becausewhen you look at a city, even
those that break it out.
There's some of thatadministrative considerably more
efficient.
For ESD number two, we probablydidn't do you justice Because
when you look at a city, wheneven those that break it out,
there's some of thatadministrative cost that happens
above the line, so to speak.
You know the general operatingpayrolls, that type of thing
that just happens somewhere else, that don't show up in the
budget for the city, but yet inthe ESD every dollar is
(06:41):
accounted for.
That's right, everything iscaptured, yeah it's all captured
in one place, so we probablywere even somewhat generous to
the cities in this regard.
But what we found was again onaverage around the state, the
ESDs were about 18% moreefficient than the nearby cities
, but for yours in particular,it was more like about 80% or
90%.
(07:01):
It was very, very efficient 80%or 90% more efficient.
Chris Wolff (07:05):
That's amazing.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (07:06):
It really is.
It really is.
It speaks to the use of theresources that you've been given
and that sort of thing.
And I think it also speaks to Imean, I started forecasting the
Texas economy in 1980.
Pflugerville had about 700people in 1980.
And today it has 65,000 or more.
And that's just the city.
(07:27):
That's just the city, and theECD of course serves a larger
area.
But to see that growth andevolution and all that take
place and be able toconsistently provide the level
of resources and staff up as youneeded to and that type of
thing you know, shiftingliterally from an old fashioned
volunteer fire department, likemy dad was in over in Lindale
Texas many years ago, which wasa town of about a thousand
(07:49):
people at the time, up to whatyou've become, is really
remarkable.
Chris Wolff (07:53):
So, sir, was there anything specifically that you
were able to identify, or howare you able to determine that
ESD2, the Pflugerville FireDepartment, was as efficient as
they are?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (08:05):
Well, you know, what we basically looked
at was what's the cost perperson to operate and provide
the services that you provide?
Was what's the cost per personto operate and provide the
services that you provide, and alot comes into that.
The less density makes it moredifficult to achieve that type
of performance and the varyingpopulation makes it more
difficult.
The wide geographic area, inrelative terms, makes it more
(08:25):
difficult.
Yet, with all of those things,when we compared you to the
cities who try to do itthemselves in the general
vicinity that are about the samesize, we're talking almost half
the cost, and we probablyweren't even capturing all the
cost in the other cities.
So that tells us that it's beena well-managed thing.
I know you had a chief that wassomewhat legendary in the area
(08:46):
for a number of years and youhave great leadership now, but
it shows a consistent pattern ofgood, strong management,
managing resources well, makingwise investments at the
appropriate time, having thefinancial flexibility to allow
you to do that.
It really a lot of things playsinto this and, as I say, when
we started looking at thesethings and looking at what was
(09:08):
happening in other areas ofcomparable size, both right
around you and in other parts ofthe state.
The Travis ESD number two hasdone a remarkable job over an
extended period of time.
Chris Wolff (09:18):
Well, thank you, sir.
One thing that I keep remindingpeople is right up the street
in this central Texas, likenorth central Texas area, we've
got a Samsung factory that'scoming into Taylor, we've got
the Tesla and a lot of otherthings, and I don't really see a
lot of pause in the growth ofPflugerville or the surrounding
(09:38):
community.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (09:40):
Oh, I don't think so at all.
You've also got the large datacenter developments taking place
around the Hutto area.
I mean, on the US 79 quarterthere is a significant a lot of
suppliers to Samsung are alreadyannouncing that they're
planning to come in there.
There's a lot of others lookingat it.
There's data centers that havealready announced substantial
investments in the region.
And now I agree with you,pflugerville is likely to
(10:02):
continue to see growth for quitesome time because you're in one
of the premier growth corridorsanywhere in the country.
Chris Wolff (10:09):
Yes, sir and Dr Perriman, you've done economic
development all over the globe,and I know Texas is a hotspot
for that, and a lot of that hasto do with strong public safety
sentiment in the state.
What role does public safetyplay in economic development
like what we're seeing here?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (10:28):
Well, it's very important.
I mean, there's a number ofthings that people look at and
your workforce is important anda number of other things,
incentives that cities andcommunities sometimes provide
but there's sort of a bottomline that to even be on the list
, you have to reach certainlevels, and public safety is a
huge part of that, obviously,and you're dealing with in these
(10:49):
particular types of facilities.
You're dealing with some verysophisticated equipment, some
very sophisticated coolingsystems and heating systems and
a number of things that arequite challenging, and obviously
having the security of knowingthat you can get a rapid
response is critical for thistype of location.
Chris Wolff (11:07):
Yes, sir, and the research I did on you.
I know it's very difficult tocorrelate home insurance costs
with the fire department's ISOrating, but we were able to do
some on the side.
Have you looked into that atall?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (11:23):
We did and , as you say, it's very
difficult.
You don't find a definitivechart somewhere that says if A
then B.
But we looked at the ratingsacross areas that had it and
areas that didn't have it andthat sort of thing, and what we
found was that it's about a 3%or so insurance benefit if
you're in an area that hasadequate fire safety protection
(11:46):
versus one that doesn't.
In terms of how the insurancecompanies rate, now, that's not
exact.
It might be two and a half, itmight be three and a half, but
there is a notable functionthere and it is something that
the insurance companies payattention to, because obviously,
if you have solid protection,you're likely to have smaller
losses in the unfortunate eventthat something does happen.
Chris Wolff (12:05):
Yes, sir, our department that you stay runs
very efficiently gets a lot ofcriticism because it has
reserves of just millions ofdollars in the bank and our fire
chief said they're trying toget to 50 percent reserve rate
and that's pretty standard to onthe low side for ESDs.
(12:28):
What are your thoughts on thebenefits of emergency services
and government agencies ingeneral and their reserves?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (12:35):
Well, obviously reserves are important
because, again, you're in avery rapidly growing area.
You've had to add a lot ofequipment, you've had to add a
lot of personnel over time andthat's likely to continue.
I mentioned the data centersthat are coming in the area.
There's already been a big oneannounced in Pflugerville.
I mean there are.
You know, this type of thing ishappening in a significant way
right now with the CHIPS Act andall the investment that's
stimulated on the semiconductorside.
(12:57):
I mean there's development allaround you that is going to
bring in more people.
It's going to bring in morebusinesses that are sensitive to
police and fire protection andother types of public safety,
and those things are going to beimportant.
And reserves basically give youthe flexibility and the
nimbleness that you need torespond to that type of thing.
And when you look at a city, Imean I like to think I'm not
(13:17):
that old.
And if you look at a city thathad 700 people when I built the
first Texas model and has almost70,000 now, some flexibility,
some nimbleness, some ability torespond to rapid change is very
important.
Chris Wolff (13:30):
Absolutely no.
I wish I'll put a picture ofyou, but you're looking good,
You're looking really good youcaught me on a day I had to wear
a tie.
I was impressed.
I told Dr Perryman it was anaudio only, but he came looking
sharp.
I was like, oh no, no, we'renot even on video, but you have
another engagement after this.
I do indeed, yes.
Well, I just can't tell you howmuch I appreciate you coming on
(13:53):
.
I have a couple more questionsfor you if you've got the time.
Sure, you bet.
So one thing that's veryinteresting in your study of
ESDs is what did you find aspopulation density as it relates
to the amount of resourcesrequired for a fire department?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (14:11):
Well, obviously you have a situation
that becomes somewhat difficultIf you do have, as you do.
You know again, you have aconcentrated population.
In Pflugerville, you also havethis broader area that has not
as much population density, andthe issue with that is, if you
have something happen at thoseplaces, you've got to be able to
deploy to those areas in atimely manner, and sometimes
lives are at stake in doing that, and so it does create
(14:34):
additional challenges when youhave less density or when you
have variable density, becauseyou have to allocate resources
more in one place, less inothers, but make sure you're
covering those other areas.
It's very difficult to dosometimes, and again, that's a
real challenge, and the numbersI've looked at suggest that you
guys have handled it remarkablywell.
Chris Wolff (14:54):
Well, thank you, sir.
My last question for you andyou're quite a distinguished
fellow and I imagine that youhang out with CEOs and
executives, c-suite members,quite a bit I'd love to get your
thoughts on.
You know, with all the techgrowth and the development
coming into the Pflugervillecommunity, what do people like
(15:16):
that that are making decisionsand running these companies?
How do you think they feelabout public safety in their
neighborhoods for their familiesand for their kids?
Well, it's absolutely essential.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (15:27):
The currency of economic development
I mean again, what we talkabout is important.
Public safety is certainlyimportant, but one of the
reasons it is important is thecurrency of economic development
is people.
You need quality people, inthis case, very highly skilled
people.
They want to live in placesthat have good schools and good
health care and strong publicsafety, because they're looking
(15:49):
at raising their families inthese places, committing
themselves to them, investing inthese communities, and that's
one of the things that they lookat.
And then, beyond that,obviously, for the families and
the employees that thesecompanies want their employees
to be happy.
They want their employees towant to live where they are in
these areas and, as we said, alot of people coming into Austin
right now in that category.
(16:09):
And also, I can't emphasizeenough, these facilities are
extraordinarily expensive.
These folks will spend, youknow, a couple of thousand
dollars a square foot on thestuff they put in these
facilities, and it's sensitiveequipment and it's equipment
that is power intensive and hasthe kinds of things where
something could happen, and theywant to make sure that they're
(16:30):
thoroughly protected there.
And so you have a system that'sevolved over time.
For a long time it's beennimble.
It's responded when it neededto and done the things it needed
to.
If you tried to start fromscratch and build something else
like this in a reasonableamount of time, it would be very
inefficient.
You've shown yourselves to bean efficient operator.
Be very inefficient.
You've shown yourselves to bean efficient operator, and so I
(16:52):
think you're a real asset forthe area as it continues to take
advantage of this remarkablegrowth corridor that's been this
coalesced around what Austinhas always had in terms or at
least for the last 40 years, interms of being a tech center,
combined with the spreading outof that further out into the
county and even the countiesbeyond.
The recent emphasis by theUnited States on more chip
plants, the rise of data centersand things like artificial
(17:13):
intelligence, which all of thisis driving tremendous investment
in this area, and public safetyis really one of those things.
If you don't check that box,they're not coming.
It's that simple.
Chris Wolff (17:24):
Yes, sir.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Dr Perriman, it was quite anhonor for me to get to talk to
you and to get you tospecifically address a study
that you guys did involving thisfire department.
I feel very fortunate to haveyou on.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (17:39):
Thank you, my pleasure.
Chris Wolff (17:41):
Wow, hope you enjoyed that episode.
It's a rare privilege and oneof the things about being a host
of a podcast is you get to justcall people up and say, hey,
would you like to be on mypodcast?
And a lot of times they say yesand uh, dr ray perryman, it was
a.
It was a privilege to have himon and we sure appreciate the
time that he took out of hisbusy schedule to talk to us.
(18:03):
Uh and what, what a neat guy.
So tune in next week.
If you thought this week wasgood, you're going to be shocked
when you see our guest nextweek.
So make sure you tune in toPflugerville on Fire.
When we compared you to the cities who
try to do it themselves in thegeneral vicinity that are about
the same size, we're talking,you know, almost half the cost,
and we probably weren't evencapturing all the cost in the
other cities.
So that tells us that it's beena well-managed thing.
I know you had a chief that wassomewhat legendary in the area
for a number of years and youhave great leadership now, but
(00:29):
it shows a consistent pattern ofgood, strong management,
managing resources well, makingwise investments at the
appropriate time, having thefinancial flexibility to allow
you to do that.
Really, a lot of things playsinto this.
Chris Wolff (00:44):
Welcome back to this week's episode of
Pflugerville on Fire.
On the show today we have DrRay Perryman.
A proper introduction wouldtake way too long to do so.
Instead, I'm just going to saygo ahead and Google Ray Perryman
.
Basically, he's got a Bachelorof Science in Mathematics from
Baylor University, a PhD inEconomics from Rice.
He's got an honorary doctoratefrom the International Institute
(01:08):
of Advanced Studies.
He's a university professor ofeconomics.
He's authored books and over400 academic papers.
He's the president and CEO ofthe Perryman Group.
He's been called a genius bythe Wall Street Journal and the
most quoted man in Texas byTexas Monthly.
Basically, this guy talks topresidents, governors, senators,
(01:28):
state elected officials, buttoday he's talking to all of us
about economics, of emergencyservices, districts and your
Pflugerville Fire Department,right here on Pflugerville, on
Fire.
Enjoy the show, all right.
So on the show.
Dr Perryman, thank you so muchfor coming on.
We appreciate it,
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (01:48):
my pleasure.
Chris Wolff (01:49):
So you have some tremendous accolades, including
the 2012 Texan of the Year isgiven by the Texas Legislative
Conference, the BaylorDistinguished Service Medal, the
Cesar E Chavez Legacy Award forHumanitarian Efforts, and that
is literally just to name a few.
We're trying to keep it a shortpodcast, but one that was my
(02:10):
favorite is the state's premierbarbecue connoisseur.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:16):
Yeah, I was quite fortunate the Dallas
Morning News hung that one on mea few years ago.
Chris Wolff (02:21):
That's an impressive accomplishment,
especially in the great state ofTexas.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:25):
Well you're right, you're right there
in central Texas.
You're in barbecue heaven, man,we are.
I tell you what.
Chris Wolff (02:30):
Oh, my goodness, I don't.
I don't need it enough.
I need to get out there more.
All right, so, sir, I amwanting to bring you on the show
specifically to talk about thestudy that you guys did on the
ESD economic impacts oncommunities.
Do you recall that study thatyou guys published?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (02:51):
It's been a few years, but yes, I do
recall that very vividly.
It was a very interesting study.
We were able to match pairsbetween ESDs and nearby cities
with similar population andcompare things in terms of cost
and efficiency, and it was avery enlightening study.
I learned a lot myself while wewere doing it.
Chris Wolff (03:07):
Well, that's great.
That is the question on the tipof everyone's tongue over here
in the city of Pflugerville.
There's a question about thesales tax revenue, whether it
should go to the fire department, whether they have too much
money, are they overspending?
And so let me ask in that ESDstudy that you guys did, was
Travis County ESD 2 included inthat?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (03:29):
Yes, it was Absolutely.
We tried to find as many as wecould where we had to have a
couple of things to make it work.
We had to have the data for theESD and they were quite
agreeable all over the state togive it to us, and then we had
to have data from nearby citiesso we could make some
comparisons of basically whatthe efficiency is, the cost,
(03:50):
relative cost, that type ofthing, and then what the benefit
or cost to taxpayers would beof adopting an ESD, and we ended
up with a sample that includedabout 2.8 million Texas
residents, so we had a very goodsample there to work with.
Chris Wolff (04:00):
That's amazing.
So what made you come to studyESDs and who funded that
research and how did that cometo be?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (04:08):
Well, it was funded by a group called
SAFE-D, and I don't recallexactly what the acronym is.
I'm sure you know it.
Chris Wolff (04:13):
I do yes,
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (04:16):
it's the group that the organization that
most of the ESDs in Texas aremembers of.
I think there's over 300 ofthese in Texas.
It's a very useful aspect ofour overall infrastructure that
we have in the state, and thisgroup asked me to get involved
and take a look at these thingsand just make some comparisons
for them so they couldcommunicate with legislators and
other constituencies about theefficiency of the work that they
(04:38):
do Well and that study came outin the year 2020, I believe,
and that is.
Chris Wolff (04:46):
it's so great that they did that, because those are
the same questions that I and alot of our listeners have.
So thank you so much for doingthat work.
So what?
What did you?
What were you able to glean?
And, as specific about TravisCounty, ESD number two as
possible, when you're comparingESD, that's pretty simple to do,
but when you try to break out,you know what is the cost of a
(05:08):
municipal fire department.
How does one go about doingthat?
Because it's a lot more layeredthan an ESD is.
It really is.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (05:16):
And it's challenging, to say the least.
We basically are dependent uponthe public filings and, of
course, most cities do maketheir financial information
available, but it's available invery different formats and very
different degrees ofspecificity and that sort of
thing.
So we had to look for thosethat where we could find an ESD
that had financial information,then nearby we would try to find
(05:38):
cities of somewhat comparablesize that did give us enough
financial information that wecould look at their cost as well
.
We did this in both 2020 and2022.
We did a couple of studies and,as you mentioned, travis ESD
number two was a part of thatanalysis and what we found with
respect to your particularsituation is that it was much
(06:00):
more efficient than the citiesaround it and we compared.
It was much more efficient thanthe cities around it and we
compared.
We had a number in TravisCounty and Williamson County
nearby, where you are, and ESDnumber two was among the most
efficient of that group in termsof its cost per person that it
served Now for the cities, eventhough it turned out to be
considerably more efficient forESD number two, we probably
(06:21):
didn't do you justice, becausewhen you look at a city, even
those that break it out.
There's some of thatadministrative considerably more
efficient.
For ESD number two, we probablydidn't do you justice Because
when you look at a city, wheneven those that break it out,
there's some of thatadministrative cost that happens
above the line, so to speak.
You know the general operatingpayrolls, that type of thing
that just happens somewhere else, that don't show up in the
budget for the city, but yet inthe ESD every dollar is
(06:41):
accounted for.
That's right, everything iscaptured, yeah it's all captured
in one place, so we probablywere even somewhat generous to
the cities in this regard.
But what we found was again onaverage around the state, the
ESDs were about 18% moreefficient than the nearby cities
, but for yours in particular,it was more like about 80% or
90%.
(07:01):
It was very, very efficient 80%or 90% more efficient.
Chris Wolff (07:05):
That's amazing.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (07:06):
It really is.
It really is.
It speaks to the use of theresources that you've been given
and that sort of thing.
And I think it also speaks to Imean, I started forecasting the
Texas economy in 1980.
Pflugerville had about 700people in 1980.
And today it has 65,000 or more.
And that's just the city.
(07:27):
That's just the city, and theECD of course serves a larger
area.
But to see that growth andevolution and all that take
place and be able toconsistently provide the level
of resources and staff up as youneeded to and that type of
thing you know, shiftingliterally from an old fashioned
volunteer fire department, likemy dad was in over in Lindale
Texas many years ago, which wasa town of about a thousand
(07:49):
people at the time, up to whatyou've become, is really
remarkable.
Chris Wolff (07:53):
So, sir, was there anything specifically that you
were able to identify, or howare you able to determine that
ESD2, the Pflugerville FireDepartment, was as efficient as
they are?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (08:05):
Well, you know, what we basically looked
at was what's the cost perperson to operate and provide
the services that you provide?
Was what's the cost per personto operate and provide the
services that you provide, and alot comes into that.
The less density makes it moredifficult to achieve that type
of performance and the varyingpopulation makes it more
difficult.
The wide geographic area, inrelative terms, makes it more
(08:25):
difficult.
Yet, with all of those things,when we compared you to the
cities who try to do itthemselves in the general
vicinity that are about the samesize, we're talking almost half
the cost, and we probablyweren't even capturing all the
cost in the other cities.
So that tells us that it's beena well-managed thing.
I know you had a chief that wassomewhat legendary in the area
(08:46):
for a number of years and youhave great leadership now, but
it shows a consistent pattern ofgood, strong management,
managing resources well, makingwise investments at the
appropriate time, having thefinancial flexibility to allow
you to do that.
It really a lot of things playsinto this and, as I say, when
we started looking at thesethings and looking at what was
(09:08):
happening in other areas ofcomparable size, both right
around you and in other parts ofthe state.
The Travis ESD number two hasdone a remarkable job over an
extended period of time.
Chris Wolff (09:18):
Well, thank you, sir.
One thing that I keep remindingpeople is right up the street
in this central Texas, likenorth central Texas area, we've
got a Samsung factory that'scoming into Taylor, we've got
the Tesla and a lot of otherthings, and I don't really see a
lot of pause in the growth ofPflugerville or the surrounding
(09:38):
community.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (09:40):
Oh, I don't think so at all.
You've also got the large datacenter developments taking place
around the Hutto area.
I mean, on the US 79 quarterthere is a significant a lot of
suppliers to Samsung are alreadyannouncing that they're
planning to come in there.
There's a lot of others lookingat it.
There's data centers that havealready announced substantial
investments in the region.
And now I agree with you,pflugerville is likely to
(10:02):
continue to see growth for quitesome time because you're in one
of the premier growth corridorsanywhere in the country.
Chris Wolff (10:09):
Yes, sir and Dr Perriman, you've done economic
development all over the globe,and I know Texas is a hotspot
for that, and a lot of that hasto do with strong public safety
sentiment in the state.
What role does public safetyplay in economic development
like what we're seeing here?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (10:28):
Well, it's very important.
I mean, there's a number ofthings that people look at and
your workforce is important anda number of other things,
incentives that cities andcommunities sometimes provide
but there's sort of a bottomline that to even be on the list
, you have to reach certainlevels, and public safety is a
huge part of that, obviously,and you're dealing with in these
(10:49):
particular types of facilities.
You're dealing with some verysophisticated equipment, some
very sophisticated coolingsystems and heating systems and
a number of things that arequite challenging, and obviously
having the security of knowingthat you can get a rapid
response is critical for thistype of location.
Chris Wolff (11:07):
Yes, sir, and the research I did on you.
I know it's very difficult tocorrelate home insurance costs
with the fire department's ISOrating, but we were able to do
some on the side.
Have you looked into that atall?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (11:23):
We did and , as you say, it's very
difficult.
You don't find a definitivechart somewhere that says if A
then B.
But we looked at the ratingsacross areas that had it and
areas that didn't have it andthat sort of thing, and what we
found was that it's about a 3%or so insurance benefit if
you're in an area that hasadequate fire safety protection
(11:46):
versus one that doesn't.
In terms of how the insurancecompanies rate, now, that's not
exact.
It might be two and a half, itmight be three and a half, but
there is a notable functionthere and it is something that
the insurance companies payattention to, because obviously,
if you have solid protection,you're likely to have smaller
losses in the unfortunate eventthat something does happen.
Chris Wolff (12:05):
Yes, sir, our department that you stay runs
very efficiently gets a lot ofcriticism because it has
reserves of just millions ofdollars in the bank and our fire
chief said they're trying toget to 50 percent reserve rate
and that's pretty standard to onthe low side for ESDs.
(12:28):
What are your thoughts on thebenefits of emergency services
and government agencies ingeneral and their reserves?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (12:35):
Well, obviously reserves are important
because, again, you're in avery rapidly growing area.
You've had to add a lot ofequipment, you've had to add a
lot of personnel over time andthat's likely to continue.
I mentioned the data centersthat are coming in the area.
There's already been a big oneannounced in Pflugerville.
I mean there are.
You know, this type of thing ishappening in a significant way
right now with the CHIPS Act andall the investment that's
stimulated on the semiconductorside.
(12:57):
I mean there's development allaround you that is going to
bring in more people.
It's going to bring in morebusinesses that are sensitive to
police and fire protection andother types of public safety,
and those things are going to beimportant.
And reserves basically give youthe flexibility and the
nimbleness that you need torespond to that type of thing.
And when you look at a city, Imean I like to think I'm not
(13:17):
that old.
And if you look at a city thathad 700 people when I built the
first Texas model and has almost70,000 now, some flexibility,
some nimbleness, some ability torespond to rapid change is very
important.
Chris Wolff (13:30):
Absolutely no.
I wish I'll put a picture ofyou, but you're looking good,
You're looking really good youcaught me on a day I had to wear
a tie.
I was impressed.
I told Dr Perryman it was anaudio only, but he came looking
sharp.
I was like, oh no, no, we'renot even on video, but you have
another engagement after this.
I do indeed, yes.
Well, I just can't tell you howmuch I appreciate you coming on
(13:53):
.
I have a couple more questionsfor you if you've got the time.
Sure, you bet.
So one thing that's veryinteresting in your study of
ESDs is what did you find aspopulation density as it relates
to the amount of resourcesrequired for a fire department?
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (14:11):
Well, obviously you have a situation
that becomes somewhat difficultIf you do have, as you do.
You know again, you have aconcentrated population.
In Pflugerville, you also havethis broader area that has not
as much population density, andthe issue with that is, if you
have something happen at thoseplaces, you've got to be able to
deploy to those areas in atimely manner, and sometimes
lives are at stake in doing that, and so it does create
(14:34):
additional challenges when youhave less density or when you
have variable density, becauseyou have to allocate resources
more in one place, less inothers, but make sure you're
covering those other areas.
It's very difficult to dosometimes, and again, that's a
real challenge, and the numbersI've looked at suggest that you
guys have handled it remarkablywell.
Chris Wolff (14:54):
Well, thank you, sir.
My last question for you andyou're quite a distinguished
fellow and I imagine that youhang out with CEOs and
executives, c-suite members,quite a bit I'd love to get your
thoughts on.
You know, with all the techgrowth and the development
coming into the Pflugervillecommunity, what do people like
(15:16):
that that are making decisionsand running these companies?
How do you think they feelabout public safety in their
neighborhoods for their familiesand for their kids?
Well, it's absolutely essential.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (15:27):
The currency of economic development
I mean again, what we talkabout is important.
Public safety is certainlyimportant, but one of the
reasons it is important is thecurrency of economic development
is people.
You need quality people, inthis case, very highly skilled
people.
They want to live in placesthat have good schools and good
health care and strong publicsafety, because they're looking
(15:49):
at raising their families inthese places, committing
themselves to them, investing inthese communities, and that's
one of the things that they lookat.
And then, beyond that,obviously, for the families and
the employees that thesecompanies want their employees
to be happy.
They want their employees towant to live where they are in
these areas and, as we said, alot of people coming into Austin
right now in that category.
(16:09):
And also, I can't emphasizeenough, these facilities are
extraordinarily expensive.
These folks will spend, youknow, a couple of thousand
dollars a square foot on thestuff they put in these
facilities, and it's sensitiveequipment and it's equipment
that is power intensive and hasthe kinds of things where
something could happen, and theywant to make sure that they're
(16:30):
thoroughly protected there.
And so you have a system that'sevolved over time.
For a long time it's beennimble.
It's responded when it neededto and done the things it needed
to.
If you tried to start fromscratch and build something else
like this in a reasonableamount of time, it would be very
inefficient.
You've shown yourselves to bean efficient operator.
Be very inefficient.
You've shown yourselves to bean efficient operator, and so I
(16:52):
think you're a real asset forthe area as it continues to take
advantage of this remarkablegrowth corridor that's been this
coalesced around what Austinhas always had in terms or at
least for the last 40 years, interms of being a tech center,
combined with the spreading outof that further out into the
county and even the countiesbeyond.
The recent emphasis by theUnited States on more chip
plants, the rise of data centersand things like artificial
(17:13):
intelligence, which all of thisis driving tremendous investment
in this area, and public safetyis really one of those things.
If you don't check that box,they're not coming.
It's that simple.
Chris Wolff (17:24):
Yes, sir.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
Dr Perriman, it was quite anhonor for me to get to talk to
you and to get you tospecifically address a study
that you guys did involving thisfire department.
I feel very fortunate to haveyou on.
Ray Perryman, Ph.D. (17:39):
Thank you, my pleasure.
Chris Wolff (17:41):
Wow, hope you enjoyed that episode.
It's a rare privilege and oneof the things about being a host
of a podcast is you get to justcall people up and say, hey,
would you like to be on mypodcast?
And a lot of times they say yesand uh, dr ray perryman, it was
a.
It was a privilege to have himon and we sure appreciate the
time that he took out of hisbusy schedule to talk to us.
(18:03):
Uh and what, what a neat guy.
So tune in next week.
If you thought this week wasgood, you're going to be shocked
when you see our guest nextweek.
So make sure you tune in toPflugerville on Fire.
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