September 7, 2024 • 27 mins
How would you feel if your community’s fire department lost 40% of its funding overnight? On this episode of Pflugerville on Fire, we sit down with Chief Nick Perkins to discuss the dire consequences of abolishing the sales tax revenue that sustains the Pflugerville Fire Department. Chief Perkins shares his candid thoughts on how laying off 133 firefighters and closing multiple fire stations would drastically increase response times and compromise emergency services. This isn't just about numbers; it’s about lives and property at stake.
We also take a closer look at Travis County ESD 2's financial structure and why the 2014 sales tax measure is so critical. Through vivid accounts, including a recent brush fire, we illustrate how defunding would severely impact firefighter safety, training programs, and essential services like advanced life support and ambulance services. Chief Perkins clears up common misconceptions and highlights the cost-efficiency and transparency of the department compared to similar fire departments in central Texas.
Learn more about the department's ISO Rating that keeps commercial and some homeowner's insurance rates low.
Read the study published by the Perryman Group on the economic benefits & potential cost savings from Emergency Services Districts.
Learn the facts on the Pflugerville Fire Department's website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Wolff (00:04):
Box alarm in ESD2 box.
Chief Perkins (00:08):
And so what we know about fires.
It doubles in size about everyminute, and so the longer it
takes to get to a fire, thebigger it gets and the longer
it's gonna take for us to bringit under control, Poses more
risk to the residents, moreproperty damage and makes the
firefighters have to work in aless safe environment for a
longer period of time.
You know, during the winterstorm there were a lot of
(00:28):
government agencies that failed.
Chris Wolff (00:30):
Failed, dropped the ball.
Chief Perkins (00:31):
This agency did not.
We rose to an incredible crisisand the firefighters ran a
thousand calls in that weekIncredible.
And so that was because of alot of planning under the
thought processes and themechanisms that I'm describing
here.
Chris Wolff (00:50):
Welcome to Pflugerville on Fire.
I'm your host, Chris Wolff.
, We We've got a great episodewith Chief of the Pflugerville
Fire Department, Nick Perkins.
In this episode we're going toget into the impact to the fire
department and the responsetimes in the community if the
sales tax gets repealed.
We'll also talk about reserves,get deep into the budget and
how emergency services budgetsdiffer from other government
(01:13):
agencies.
Then we're going to compare thePflugerville Fire Department to
other departments in the regionand get a gauge on whether our
department is as efficient andas effective as people claim.
A little bit about Chief Perkins.
He joined the Pflugerville FireDepartment in 1998.
He moved up the ranks from afirefighter to a shift commander
, to the chief of the trainingdivision, became the assistant
(01:36):
chief and finally the chief ofthe department in 2021.
It was Nick Perkins' time inthe training division that
really set Pflugerville apart.
It was Nick Perkins' time inthe training division that
really set Pflugerville apart.
In his time there at thetraining division he instituted
a robust and progressivetraining program.
That was one of the big reasonsthat I joined the department.
He has a master's degree inpublic administration and he
(01:57):
teaches fire technology at thecollege level.
Having worked for Chief Perkins.
I can tell you a couple ofthings.
Number one he leads from thefront.
He's calm in chaos and he tellsit like it is, but probably
most importantly is that hecares.
He certainly has a respect tothe firefighters and is a voice
to be considered in this issue.
So enjoy this interview withChief of the Fire Department,
(02:20):
nick Perkins.
All right, welcome to thepodcast, chief Perkins.
Thanks so much for coming onthe show.
Chief Perkins (02:28):
Yeah, thanks, happy to be here.
Chris Wolff (02:30):
All right, we're going to dive right into it.
Our listeners are aware thatthere's an initiative on the
ballot to remove sales taxrevenue from the fire department
.
What can residents expect theirfire department to look like if
the sales tax is repealed?
Chief Perkins (02:43):
So if we were to lose roughly 40% of our revenue,
you would see a similarreduction in the resources and
the capability of the firedepartment.
So what that looks like isreducing 219 positions from the
fire department.
That takes into account plannedpositions for next year, but we
would be laying off at least133 people Wow.
(03:07):
So that would affect ourability to staff fire trucks and
to operate out of fire stations.
So we would be looking atclosing at least three fire
stations, one of the units atstation eight, so you know we
can count on at least four ofour fire stations not operating
the way they do today.
Chris Wolff (03:24):
Count on at least four of our fire stations not
operating the way they do today.
So personally I've seen.
You know, we've recently hadsome firefighters roll out and
I've heard kind of grumblingsfrom the guys.
As the chief of the department,are you aware of the impact
that struggles like this has onthe morale of your firefighters?
Chief Perkins (03:41):
Yeah, so we, you know we do exit interviews when
people leave and I think part ofbeing a firefighter.
One of the advantages thatattracts people to this job is
stability, Because firefightingand EMS are essential services
in a community and typicallyhave a lot of support.
And working in an environmentwhere we could lose half of our
funding and we'd be forced to dolayoffs, I don't think it's
(04:02):
helpful to recruiting andretention.
I don't think it's good forthat, my gosh.
Chris Wolff (04:07):
So what's that going to do then to the
department response timesrating-wise?
Chief Perkins (04:13):
Yeah, so currently we have a response
time in most areas that's under10 minutes eight minutes in most
areas and so cutting ourresources in half, closing fire
stations would bring responsetimes to 20 minutes, 40 minutes
to an hour in some areas, and soobviously that affects our
ability to respond toemergencies, to keep fire small,
(04:36):
to help people who are havinglife-threatening medical
situations, but also our ISOrating would be affected.
So currently we have an ISO 1,which is heavily rated on your
response time, and we would begoing to 10 in some areas, and
so that can be an insuranceincrease for some people of up
(04:57):
to 50%, 30% for commercialproperty owners and some
homeowners.
Wow.
Chris Wolff (05:03):
So, chief, when you came over here to the show, you
were actually all decked out.
Where had you just come from?
Chief Perkins (05:08):
Yeah, I just came from a brush fire we had out
east of town and so you know wehad about 10 acres burning out
there and so we had a prettygood fire.
We had, I think, five brushtrucks, four engines and several
command staff units and had atleast a unit from Austin Fire
Department and I think anotherunit from Mainer Fire Department
(05:31):
helping us.
Chris Wolff (05:32):
So that's a tremendous amount of resources
and this is a great example.
So, using that what justhappened as an example, what
will response look like if thismeasure passes and the defund
fire department gets defunded?
Chief Perkins (05:49):
Yeah, so, like on an incident like that where we
were able to send all of thoseresources very quickly, get on
that firewall.
It's smaller and allows us tobring it under control.
We really had that fire undercontrol in about an hour.
So what we would be forced withis fighting a fire like that
with half the resources andtaking longer time to get there.
And so what we know about fireis it doubles in size about
every minute, and so the longerit takes to get to a fire, the
(06:10):
bigger it gets and the longerit's going to take for us to
bring it under control, posesmore risk to the residents, more
property damage and makes thefirefighters have to work in a
less safe environment for alonger period of time.
Chris Wolff (06:21):
Wow, so a lot of our listeners may not be aware
that we actually run a highschool fire and EMS program.
We also run a cadet program andtrain.
The department trains its ownparamedics.
How would this impact thoseprograms?
Chief Perkins (06:38):
All of those programs would be impacted.
So most of them we would not beable to operate the way we do
today.
So we would not have theresources to support the high
school program, we would nothave the resources to support a
cadet program.
You know, really, at that pointour effort would be just
meeting our state-mandatedtraining requirements for the
firefighters that are out on thestreet.
Chris Wolff (07:01):
Wow, that's a scary thing to think about for
someone who joined thedepartment because of the
training.
That's wild.
So let's ask the question then.
All of this has to do withfunding.
How does Travis County ESD 2compare financially with other
fire departments that aresimilar size and scope?
Chief Perkins (07:17):
So remember Travis County ESD 2, also known
as the Pflugerville FireDepartment.
We are an ESD and so we collectfunding in a few areas.
We get property tax, which islimited at 10 cents per ad
valorem, so that's 10 cents per$100 of property valuation and
we're capped, can't go any morethan 10 cents.
Then we also collect a halfcent sales tax across the entire
(07:40):
district.
That was from an election in2001,.
The voters passed that.
And then we collect anadditional half cent in the
Pflugerville ETJ and areasoutside the Wells Branch Library
District.
That voters granted in 2014.
And so then we also have fees.
So we have fire marshal feesand we have EMS fees, and so you
combine all those together andthat's what makes up our budget.
(08:02):
And so we have about a $43million operating budget.
And when you compare us tomunicipal services and you look
at it from a property taxperspective, what we see is most
fire departments operatingbetween about 26 cents and 31
cents.
So Georgetown Fire Department,that's a comparable fire
department in terms of size andthe population they serve.
(08:23):
They also provide fire-basedEMS.
They're at 31 cents, and so youdon't have to take my word for
it.
An economist, ray Perryman,studied ESDs across the state,
and he found two things.
One he found that ESDscontribute to the local economic
environment.
In Texas ESDs protect about 10million people, about a third of
(08:44):
the state.
You can't have a thrivingeconomy if it's not safe, and so
that's why you need emergencyservice districts.
But the other thing he found ishe specifically studied ESD
operations and cost versusmunicipal fire departments cost
and operations and what he foundoverwhelmingly is that ESDs are
more efficient.
And so, specifically, one ofthe regions he studied was
(09:06):
Central Texas.
We were a part of that studyand included in that, and we
outperformed every municipalityin Central Texas.
Only one department was moreefficient than us, and that's
the Hutto Fire Department Greatfire department but they don't
provide ambulance or ALS service, wow.
Chris Wolff (09:21):
So I hear you say that the Pflugerville Fire
Department is efficient and youcompared it to Georgetown, and
so just to clarify for thelisteners at home Pflugerville
provides similar service forless money, correct?
Wow, all right, well, that's animportant thing to note.
When all of this is based ondollars and cents and listeners
(09:42):
and voters are going to hear alot, they're going to be told
that the initiative is a refund,not a defund, and this goes
back to that 2014 sales tax tofund advanced life support for
the department.
So my question is is advancedlife support or ALS and
ambulance transport the samething, and should residents be
refunded, since the departmentno longer provides transport in
(10:05):
the city?
Chief Perkins (10:06):
That's a good question.
So what this measure aims to dois to remove, abolish the half
cent we collect in the city.
That was passed in 2001.
So that had nothing to do withadvanced life support, so that
wouldn't make sense in terms ofthe refund, and the only reason
we've been able to be aneffective fire department is
(10:27):
because of sales tax On the 2014election.
That was collected outside thecity of Pflugerville and was
granted by those voters in 2014to fund training firefighters to
be paramedics, and we've donethat.
We've trained over 53paramedics since that time.
We, to this day, still provideadvanced life support services
(10:50):
to those areas and we provideambulance service to those areas
with the help of ESD-17 inTravis County.
And then the other thing thatwe've been able to do is because
we provide those resources outof ALS-equipped fire stations
Stations 5, stations 3, andreally Station 6.
Now, on about a fourth of thecalls in Pflugerville, there is
(11:12):
an ESD2 paramedic on those calls, and so we are delivering ALS
services to some capacity on,like I said, at least a quarter
of those calls in Pflugerville,and so that's significant
because if you're running acardiac arrest with the
for-profit provider, there'susually only one paramedic on
that ambulance, and so havinganother paramedic on scene to
(11:33):
help is a good thing.
And then we've also seen manycases where the ESD2 paramedic
is able to assist with aprocedure that the for-profit
provider can't do, it's not ascapable as doing, and so our
folks step in.
And then certainly we've seenwhere we don't have one of our
ALS providers on scene, where apatient has actually been killed
(11:55):
by the for-profit provider.
Chris Wolff (11:57):
Right, yeah, what a shame.
That's wild.
So voters will hear that youcould have run ambulances if you
had wanted to.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Chief Perkins (12:08):
Well, for that immediate year where COVID
happened and sales tax dippedand then we saw surplus.
We could have maybe done it foranother year, but what that
would have looked like is wewould have delayed building fire
stations, adding firefightersand addressing the gaps in the
(12:29):
upcoming fire mission needsWould have required us to run
our paramedics and ourambulances to the max, to the
extreme.
Currently, and even at thattime, we run more calls than any
ESD in Travis-Williamson orHayes County.
Chris Wolff (12:44):
Travis-Williamson or Hayes County Correct.
Pflugerville Fire Departmentruns the most of any ESD.
And Travis Williamson or HayesCounty Travis Williamson or
Hayes County Correct.
Pflugerville fire departmentruns the most of the ESDs
Correct, wow.
Chief Perkins (12:50):
And so my point in saying that and you know this
, we're already working you guysreally hard and you're human,
you guys are amazing and you'reyou're superhuman.
You did you guys have limitsand we run into safety problems,
we run into mental healthproblems when we don't manage
these things correctly.
And so, to answer your question, yeah, maybe we could have run
(13:12):
it for another year and puttingall those things on hold,
running you guys into overtime,but for sure, as we sit today,
we would not have been able todo all of that as we sit today,
having added all the resourcesand addressed the gaps that we
had and that we've been lookingat within the fire mission as
well.
Chris Wolff (13:29):
Yeah, it seems like .
Was that something that ESDsare required to do?
Provide ambulance transport?
Is that something that is anadd-on?
Chief Perkins (13:38):
Yeah, so it's not mandated that ESDs do that.
Again, we're a fire department.
You know, what we've beenseeing through the majority of
my career was the previousambulance model, which was a
rural kind of ambulance model.
It's typically a rural areathat contracts with a city to
provide the areas outside.
That no longer was sustainableand we began to see that system
(14:02):
get stressed, those responsetimes grow.
And we began to see that systemget stressed, those response
times grow.
And that's where we stepped in.
And the initial plan was tostep in to get paramedics on the
fire trucks.
That way we could get that care, that ALS care, delivered
quicker while we were waitingfor the ambulance.
Well, in the process of addingparamedics, you know, talking
with other partners the countyand the city at the time,
(14:24):
talking with other partners thecounty and the city at the time
is, like you know, we think wecan help with this problem by
staffing some ambulances tosupplement the existing service
and then, ultimately, once westarted running, ambulances we
were left by ourselves, and soyou know that was never the
original, that was never theoriginal plan and, at the end of
the day, the model and the waywe were operating, taking into
account the four fire stationsthat we've opened during that
(14:47):
time, the almost 150firefighters that we've hired in
that time, the additionalapparatus, fire trucks,
equipment, we would not havebeen able to do all that under
the current model.
Chris Wolff (14:58):
You're saying it was the right financial plan.
Chief Perkins (15:00):
We were at $0.10 when we were having this
discussion.
We were at our max rate.
Now, granted, a number ofthings happened.
We had a pandemic where we sawour sales tax have some of the
most underperforming months we'dever seen in the history of
sales tax collection.
And then we saw the federalgovernment introduce the
stimulus packages and conceptssomething I'd never seen in my
(15:21):
lifetime.
I don't know about y'all and sothen we saw overperformance from
sales tax.
And then, of course, we saw thefollowing inflation and kind of
those reactions.
So for us, that's fire trucksincreasing by 30%, ambulances
increasing by 40%, staff andlabor costs exceedingly costly.
(15:42):
And here we are today withproperty values beginning to
decline and level out, and weare in fact looking back at
those forecasts.
We are going to be back at 10cents in those forecasts, which
is where all this started.
And so did it happen in theexact minute and day when we
said it would no, and I don'tthink that's fair or realistic
(16:03):
to expect someone to be able topredict the future to that
degree of certainty.
But we are approaching what wethought we would approach At the
end of the day, what you did,what you're saying, was
necessary.
The decisions the board madewere the right calls.
And so here we are.
We now have ESD 17 assisting uswith funding, as is Travis
(16:25):
County, and we've identified amodel that allows us to deliver
on the services that we areresponsible for in the community
and also be able to compensateand take care of the
firefighters who are providingthe service.
Chris Wolff (16:41):
Chief, your department has some transparency
stars, meaning that people canlook on and see what it is, and
if anyone does a little bit ofhomework, they're going to see
millions of dollars sitting inyour bank.
Can you talk about that andthen can you compare that to
other departments?
Yeah, that's a good question.
Chief Perkins (16:58):
So that's correct .
We have three transparencystars from the Texas Comptroller
, and so when you look on ourwebsite, there is an
overwhelming amount ofinformation available on our
finances there, and I challengeyou to go to another government
with that level of transparencyand availability, with the
documents we provide, and that'swhy we've been recognized for
(17:19):
it.
And so to your question we dohave a reserve fund, and so I'll
talk a little bit aboutreserves.
You know, for us as an ESD, wehave limited abilities to offset
unplanned costs, and so what Imean by that is a disaster comes
in, say I don't know, apandemic, a winter storm, a
(17:41):
really rough wildfire season.
These are not hypothetical,right?
Chris Wolff (17:44):
These are things that have happened.
Chief Perkins (17:46):
These are things we've dealt with the last five
years, and so these things willbring extraordinary costs, and
it's typically an overtime andequipment costs to the operation
, and so we have to plan forthat.
The other thing is you couldhave a fire truck wrecked and
you've got to replace that, andit doesn't work the way you
think it works in insurance, andyou could be out having to buy
(18:08):
and put out significant moneyfor a fire truck, and we've had
that happen.
We've had a person crash into afire truck and total one of our
fire engines.
So you have to plan.
My point in all this is youhave to plan for disasters, and
so that's the purpose of havingyour reserve, and you also want
to plan for economic downturn,so again you could have a period
where your sales tax plummets.
Chris Wolff (18:29):
So yeah, you got this reserve.
Is it a lot?
Chief Perkins (18:33):
We do.
So what we try to do is operateat about six months of our
operating costs for the year.
And so with a $43 millionbudget, you're looking at about
$26 year.
And so you know, with a $43million budget, you know you're
looking at about $26 million.
And so when we compareourselves to other ESDs, because
we're aware of the scrutinythat can come upon having money
in the bank, you know peoplewould say, hey, just, you know,
(18:56):
spend that money.
But we're aware of thatscrutiny.
So we studied this prettyheavily and again, when you
compare us to other ESDs,proportionally we have one of
the lowest reserves byproportion.
Right, most ESDs are carryingabout 100% of their operating
costs for the year and a lot ofthat you see in federal.
You know that's kind of likesome real common in federal
(19:18):
programs.
And so for us we're at sixmonths programs and so for us
we're at six months.
And the other huge thing aboutreserves, outside of the ability
to looking at as a riskmanagement tool, the ability to
kind of navigate unplannedevents and disasters, is when we
go to the capital markets andwe go to do big loans, like when
we go to do a loan for a firestation and a training field,
(19:39):
like we're doing right now thebank looks.
One of the primary criteriathey look at is they look we're
doing right now the bank looks.
One of the primary criteriathey look at is they look at the
money you have in the bank andso by having an adequate amount
of reserves, you can capitalizeon a really good interest rate,
and that literally saves thecommunity hundreds of thousands
of dollars with loans, and sothat's another reason why you
(20:02):
need to have the reserve.
But I think you know the bestanalogy that when people say
well, you know, just use yourreserve, just spend your savings
account Right.
Chris Wolff (20:11):
Hey, you got millions sitting in there, just
tap into it, yeah.
Chief Perkins (20:13):
So what we like.
The analogy I like to use isit's kind of like with you and
your personal finances and yoursavings account and your
mortgage payment right, so thatmortgage payment comes every
month, and it will come everymonth for as long as you live in
that house and so, or for 30years and so, but you could use
your savings account to pay yourmortgage payment.
(20:34):
You could do that.
Eventually, you will not haveany money in the savings and you
will have to pay that mortgagepayment, and then what happens
when your air condition breaks?
What happens when the roof goesout?
You won't have a savingsaccount anymore, and so that's
just not good governance, that'snot responsible government and
that's not how we plan for thefuture to protect a community
(20:56):
with the responsibility that wehave.
Chris Wolff (20:58):
And your organization is a little bit
different than, say, like publicworks or parks and recs.
Chief Perkins (21:02):
Yeah, I think well, no disrespect to those
people, the work they do isamazing and they are absolutely
vital and critical.
But what you see in a city,some of the options they have to
kind of offset costs is theycan shut the library down.
They can tell the utility folkshey, we're not going to mow
Monday through Thursday, we'reonly going to mow on Fridays,
and again we can close the pools.
(21:23):
We don't have those options andtypically during disasters and
turning tough times, we actuallygo into overtime.
We have to work harder.
We have to spend more money tomitigate and bring disasters
under control.
So it's just not an apples toapples comparison.
When you look at a city andpertaining to ESD and again
going back to, we have limitedoptions.
(21:44):
A city can issue debt,sometimes non-voter approved
debt.
We've seen that here locally.
We can't do that, we don't havethe ability to do that.
So we have to be very carefuland we have to be very safe, and
that's why you see our board.
They make very conservativedecisions because what we don't
ever want to happen is we don'tever want to come up short.
(22:04):
We don't want to fail thecommunity.
During the winter storm, therewere a lot of government
agencies that failed.
This agency did not.
We rose to an incredible crisisand the firefighters ran a
thousand calls in that week, andso that was because of of a lot
of planning under the thoughtprocesses and the mechanisms
(22:28):
that I'm describing here.
That's, that's what it gets you.
Chris Wolff (22:31):
I personally was on an extra truck that we don't
normally run, that was equippedwith snow chains and all the
equipment that we needed in caseof something like that.
So, chief.
So, how much money, if any, canresidents save if they vote yes
to repeal the sales tax andtake it away to defund the fire
department?
Chief Perkins (22:49):
So that would temporarily remove the sales tax
that we collect.
I saw the city put on theiragenda last week to call an
election for the creation of amunicipal development district
that would seek to capture thatof a municipal development
district that would seek tocapture that.
So if we were to lose the salestax, it's reasonable that
another government would try tocapture that.
(23:10):
So the sales tax that you paywhen you go to buy something it
won't go away, so somebody willbe collecting that, so there's
no savings there.
And then, in terms of propertytax, again, remember, we're
capped at 10 cents.
We're currently just below 8cents and, as I was explaining
to you, with the decline inhouse values and everything that
property values and everythingthat we've got to keep up with,
(23:32):
we're going to be back at 10cents and so the property taxes
are going to increase.
If the city were, if thismeasure was successful and the
city were to gain this fundingand as the petitioners have put
on their website and thespokesperson said that they
would fund EMS and even a firedepartment well, they would have
infrastructure needs, they'dhave to build facilities, they'd
(23:53):
have to buy apparatus, they'dhave to hire people, and so that
would be a duplication ofexisting infrastructure that
already exists, and so thatwould be long-term cost to the
community.
Chris Wolff (24:05):
So you already said the ISO rating is going to
increase insurance prices and wedid some checking here on the
show.
We got one insurance company,Lloyd's, that said it would be
at least 33% for a residentialproperty.
I believe that's commercial.
Yeah, so all right, I'm sureit's going to hit residential as
well.
We just don't know exactly howmuch it's going.
Okay, yeah, so all right, I'msure it's going to hit
residential as well.
We just don't know exactly howmuch it's going to be.
(24:27):
And then you said that theproperty tax rate is going to go
up because you guys need torecoup that money somehow, and
then, finally, the city is goingto have to pull debt in order
to create the infrastructure tobackfill that program.
Chief Perkins (24:42):
Yeah, to build facilities and to buy trucks and
equipment, All of that.
We're talking millions andmillions of dollars.
Chris Wolff (24:51):
All this for money.
That is, sales tax, whereyou're paying no matter what.
Chief Perkins (24:55):
Correct, assuming another government goes after
it and is successful in gettingit.
Chris Wolff (25:00):
Wow, Well, that is wild stuff.
Chief, Thank you so much forcoming on the show.
I think you did a great jobexplaining that and breaking it
down.
Really appreciate your time.
Chief Perkins (25:11):
Yeah, thanks for having me on, and happy to do so
.
Chris Wolff (25:15):
Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
I really appreciate you doingyour part to get the information
.
In our country, both nationallyand locally.
There's so many divisive issuesthat bring us apart, and one of
the results of that is peoplehave less trust in their
governmental institutions.
One of those governmentalinstitutions that still
(25:35):
maintains a high level of trustwith people is the fire service
in this country, and in thatvein, I think it's very
important to hear from our fireservice leaders speaking
directly to you, the listener,so we can clear some of this
stuff up.
If you enjoyed the show, pleaselike and subscribe.
You can send us a message.
We'd love to hear from you.
Tell us if you liked it, tellus if you've got other questions
(25:57):
that you'd like us to check out, and then also in the show
notes we have a link to thePerryman study talking about the
ESDs.
Very good information there,and if you'd like to get
involved, please do us a favor.
Share this episode with yourfriends and neighbors so that
they can become more informed.
I think a lot of this mistrustcomes from misinformation and
(26:19):
misunderstanding.
The more we can clear this up,the better.
In the next episode we're goingto be talking to firefighter
paramedic Cody Smith.
Cody's life changeddramatically on the night of
January 6, 2023, in the back ofa for-profit ambulance, when
Cody witnessed as a for-profitparamedic was responsible for
(26:40):
the death of one of ourPflugerville citizens.
Obviously, this had a hugeimpact on Cody and really
changed the trajectory of hislife.
Cody attended the PflugervilleFire Department Paramedic School
with the commitment of neverseeing anything like that happen
again.
We'll get his perspective onwhat he saw that night, how it
impacted him, and we'll talkabout the paramedic program.
(27:02):
We'll discuss why it's receivedsome scrutiny from the
community and we'll talk aboutwhat makes it different, as well
as its tenuous future shouldthe sales tax become abolished.
All that and more so tune in tothe next episode of
Pflugerville on fire.
Box alarm in ESD2 box.
Chief Perkins (00:08):
And so what we know about fires.
It doubles in size about everyminute, and so the longer it
takes to get to a fire, thebigger it gets and the longer
it's gonna take for us to bringit under control, Poses more
risk to the residents, moreproperty damage and makes the
firefighters have to work in aless safe environment for a
longer period of time.
You know, during the winterstorm there were a lot of
(00:28):
government agencies that failed.
Chris Wolff (00:30):
Failed, dropped the ball.
Chief Perkins (00:31):
This agency did not.
We rose to an incredible crisisand the firefighters ran a
thousand calls in that weekIncredible.
And so that was because of alot of planning under the
thought processes and themechanisms that I'm describing
here.
Chris Wolff (00:50):
Welcome to Pflugerville on Fire.
I'm your host, Chris Wolff.
, We We've got a great episodewith Chief of the Pflugerville
Fire Department, Nick Perkins.
In this episode we're going toget into the impact to the fire
department and the responsetimes in the community if the
sales tax gets repealed.
We'll also talk about reserves,get deep into the budget and
how emergency services budgetsdiffer from other government
(01:13):
agencies.
Then we're going to compare thePflugerville Fire Department to
other departments in the regionand get a gauge on whether our
department is as efficient andas effective as people claim.
A little bit about Chief Perkins.
He joined the Pflugerville FireDepartment in 1998.
He moved up the ranks from afirefighter to a shift commander
, to the chief of the trainingdivision, became the assistant
(01:36):
chief and finally the chief ofthe department in 2021.
It was Nick Perkins' time inthe training division that
really set Pflugerville apart.
It was Nick Perkins' time inthe training division that
really set Pflugerville apart.
In his time there at thetraining division he instituted
a robust and progressivetraining program.
That was one of the big reasonsthat I joined the department.
He has a master's degree inpublic administration and he
(01:57):
teaches fire technology at thecollege level.
Having worked for Chief Perkins.
I can tell you a couple ofthings.
Number one he leads from thefront.
He's calm in chaos and he tellsit like it is, but probably
most importantly is that hecares.
He certainly has a respect tothe firefighters and is a voice
to be considered in this issue.
So enjoy this interview withChief of the Fire Department,
(02:20):
nick Perkins.
All right, welcome to thepodcast, chief Perkins.
Thanks so much for coming onthe show.
Chief Perkins (02:28):
Yeah, thanks, happy to be here.
Chris Wolff (02:30):
All right, we're going to dive right into it.
Our listeners are aware thatthere's an initiative on the
ballot to remove sales taxrevenue from the fire department
.
What can residents expect theirfire department to look like if
the sales tax is repealed?
Chief Perkins (02:43):
So if we were to lose roughly 40% of our revenue,
you would see a similarreduction in the resources and
the capability of the firedepartment.
So what that looks like isreducing 219 positions from the
fire department.
That takes into account plannedpositions for next year, but we
would be laying off at least133 people Wow.
(03:07):
So that would affect ourability to staff fire trucks and
to operate out of fire stations.
So we would be looking atclosing at least three fire
stations, one of the units atstation eight, so you know we
can count on at least four ofour fire stations not operating
the way they do today.
Chris Wolff (03:24):
Count on at least four of our fire stations not
operating the way they do today.
So personally I've seen.
You know, we've recently hadsome firefighters roll out and
I've heard kind of grumblingsfrom the guys.
As the chief of the department,are you aware of the impact
that struggles like this has onthe morale of your firefighters?
Chief Perkins (03:41):
Yeah, so we, you know we do exit interviews when
people leave and I think part ofbeing a firefighter.
One of the advantages thatattracts people to this job is
stability, Because firefightingand EMS are essential services
in a community and typicallyhave a lot of support.
And working in an environmentwhere we could lose half of our
funding and we'd be forced to dolayoffs, I don't think it's
(04:02):
helpful to recruiting andretention.
I don't think it's good forthat, my gosh.
Chris Wolff (04:07):
So what's that going to do then to the
department response timesrating-wise?
Chief Perkins (04:13):
Yeah, so currently we have a response
time in most areas that's under10 minutes eight minutes in most
areas and so cutting ourresources in half, closing fire
stations would bring responsetimes to 20 minutes, 40 minutes
to an hour in some areas, and soobviously that affects our
ability to respond toemergencies, to keep fire small,
(04:36):
to help people who are havinglife-threatening medical
situations, but also our ISOrating would be affected.
So currently we have an ISO 1,which is heavily rated on your
response time, and we would begoing to 10 in some areas, and
so that can be an insuranceincrease for some people of up
(04:57):
to 50%, 30% for commercialproperty owners and some
homeowners.
Wow.
Chris Wolff (05:03):
So, chief, when you came over here to the show, you
were actually all decked out.
Where had you just come from?
Chief Perkins (05:08):
Yeah, I just came from a brush fire we had out
east of town and so you know wehad about 10 acres burning out
there and so we had a prettygood fire.
We had, I think, five brushtrucks, four engines and several
command staff units and had atleast a unit from Austin Fire
Department and I think anotherunit from Mainer Fire Department
(05:31):
helping us.
Chris Wolff (05:32):
So that's a tremendous amount of resources
and this is a great example.
So, using that what justhappened as an example, what
will response look like if thismeasure passes and the defund
fire department gets defunded?
Chief Perkins (05:49):
Yeah, so, like on an incident like that where we
were able to send all of thoseresources very quickly, get on
that firewall.
It's smaller and allows us tobring it under control.
We really had that fire undercontrol in about an hour.
So what we would be forced withis fighting a fire like that
with half the resources andtaking longer time to get there.
And so what we know about fireis it doubles in size about
every minute, and so the longerit takes to get to a fire, the
(06:10):
bigger it gets and the longerit's going to take for us to
bring it under control, posesmore risk to the residents, more
property damage and makes thefirefighters have to work in a
less safe environment for alonger period of time.
Chris Wolff (06:21):
Wow, so a lot of our listeners may not be aware
that we actually run a highschool fire and EMS program.
We also run a cadet program andtrain.
The department trains its ownparamedics.
How would this impact thoseprograms?
Chief Perkins (06:38):
All of those programs would be impacted.
So most of them we would not beable to operate the way we do
today.
So we would not have theresources to support the high
school program, we would nothave the resources to support a
cadet program.
You know, really, at that pointour effort would be just
meeting our state-mandatedtraining requirements for the
firefighters that are out on thestreet.
Chris Wolff (07:01):
Wow, that's a scary thing to think about for
someone who joined thedepartment because of the
training.
That's wild.
So let's ask the question then.
All of this has to do withfunding.
How does Travis County ESD 2compare financially with other
fire departments that aresimilar size and scope?
Chief Perkins (07:17):
So remember Travis County ESD 2, also known
as the Pflugerville FireDepartment.
We are an ESD and so we collectfunding in a few areas.
We get property tax, which islimited at 10 cents per ad
valorem, so that's 10 cents per$100 of property valuation and
we're capped, can't go any morethan 10 cents.
Then we also collect a halfcent sales tax across the entire
(07:40):
district.
That was from an election in2001,.
The voters passed that.
And then we collect anadditional half cent in the
Pflugerville ETJ and areasoutside the Wells Branch Library
District.
That voters granted in 2014.
And so then we also have fees.
So we have fire marshal feesand we have EMS fees, and so you
combine all those together andthat's what makes up our budget.
(08:02):
And so we have about a $43million operating budget.
And when you compare us tomunicipal services and you look
at it from a property taxperspective, what we see is most
fire departments operatingbetween about 26 cents and 31
cents.
So Georgetown Fire Department,that's a comparable fire
department in terms of size andthe population they serve.
(08:23):
They also provide fire-basedEMS.
They're at 31 cents, and so youdon't have to take my word for
it.
An economist, ray Perryman,studied ESDs across the state,
and he found two things.
One he found that ESDscontribute to the local economic
environment.
In Texas ESDs protect about 10million people, about a third of
(08:44):
the state.
You can't have a thrivingeconomy if it's not safe, and so
that's why you need emergencyservice districts.
But the other thing he found ishe specifically studied ESD
operations and cost versusmunicipal fire departments cost
and operations and what he foundoverwhelmingly is that ESDs are
more efficient.
And so, specifically, one ofthe regions he studied was
(09:06):
Central Texas.
We were a part of that studyand included in that, and we
outperformed every municipalityin Central Texas.
Only one department was moreefficient than us, and that's
the Hutto Fire Department Greatfire department but they don't
provide ambulance or ALS service, wow.
Chris Wolff (09:21):
So I hear you say that the Pflugerville Fire
Department is efficient and youcompared it to Georgetown, and
so just to clarify for thelisteners at home Pflugerville
provides similar service forless money, correct?
Wow, all right, well, that's animportant thing to note.
When all of this is based ondollars and cents and listeners
(09:42):
and voters are going to hear alot, they're going to be told
that the initiative is a refund,not a defund, and this goes
back to that 2014 sales tax tofund advanced life support for
the department.
So my question is is advancedlife support or ALS and
ambulance transport the samething, and should residents be
refunded, since the departmentno longer provides transport in
(10:05):
the city?
Chief Perkins (10:06):
That's a good question.
So what this measure aims to dois to remove, abolish the half
cent we collect in the city.
That was passed in 2001.
So that had nothing to do withadvanced life support, so that
wouldn't make sense in terms ofthe refund, and the only reason
we've been able to be aneffective fire department is
(10:27):
because of sales tax On the 2014election.
That was collected outside thecity of Pflugerville and was
granted by those voters in 2014to fund training firefighters to
be paramedics, and we've donethat.
We've trained over 53paramedics since that time.
We, to this day, still provideadvanced life support services
(10:50):
to those areas and we provideambulance service to those areas
with the help of ESD-17 inTravis County.
And then the other thing thatwe've been able to do is because
we provide those resources outof ALS-equipped fire stations
Stations 5, stations 3, andreally Station 6.
Now, on about a fourth of thecalls in Pflugerville, there is
(11:12):
an ESD2 paramedic on those calls, and so we are delivering ALS
services to some capacity on,like I said, at least a quarter
of those calls in Pflugerville,and so that's significant
because if you're running acardiac arrest with the
for-profit provider, there'susually only one paramedic on
that ambulance, and so havinganother paramedic on scene to
(11:33):
help is a good thing.
And then we've also seen manycases where the ESD2 paramedic
is able to assist with aprocedure that the for-profit
provider can't do, it's not ascapable as doing, and so our
folks step in.
And then certainly we've seenwhere we don't have one of our
ALS providers on scene, where apatient has actually been killed
(11:55):
by the for-profit provider.
Chris Wolff (11:57):
Right, yeah, what a shame.
That's wild.
So voters will hear that youcould have run ambulances if you
had wanted to.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Chief Perkins (12:08):
Well, for that immediate year where COVID
happened and sales tax dippedand then we saw surplus.
We could have maybe done it foranother year, but what that
would have looked like is wewould have delayed building fire
stations, adding firefightersand addressing the gaps in the
(12:29):
upcoming fire mission needsWould have required us to run
our paramedics and ourambulances to the max, to the
extreme.
Currently, and even at thattime, we run more calls than any
ESD in Travis-Williamson orHayes County.
Chris Wolff (12:44):
Travis-Williamson or Hayes County Correct.
Pflugerville Fire Departmentruns the most of any ESD.
And Travis Williamson or HayesCounty Travis Williamson or
Hayes County Correct.
Pflugerville fire departmentruns the most of the ESDs
Correct, wow.
Chief Perkins (12:50):
And so my point in saying that and you know this
, we're already working you guysreally hard and you're human,
you guys are amazing and you'reyou're superhuman.
You did you guys have limitsand we run into safety problems,
we run into mental healthproblems when we don't manage
these things correctly.
And so, to answer your question, yeah, maybe we could have run
(13:12):
it for another year and puttingall those things on hold,
running you guys into overtime,but for sure, as we sit today,
we would not have been able todo all of that as we sit today,
having added all the resourcesand addressed the gaps that we
had and that we've been lookingat within the fire mission as
well.
Chris Wolff (13:29):
Yeah, it seems like .
Was that something that ESDsare required to do?
Provide ambulance transport?
Is that something that is anadd-on?
Chief Perkins (13:38):
Yeah, so it's not mandated that ESDs do that.
Again, we're a fire department.
You know, what we've beenseeing through the majority of
my career was the previousambulance model, which was a
rural kind of ambulance model.
It's typically a rural areathat contracts with a city to
provide the areas outside.
That no longer was sustainableand we began to see that system
(14:02):
get stressed, those responsetimes grow.
And we began to see that systemget stressed, those response
times grow.
And that's where we stepped in.
And the initial plan was tostep in to get paramedics on the
fire trucks.
That way we could get that care, that ALS care, delivered
quicker while we were waitingfor the ambulance.
Well, in the process of addingparamedics, you know, talking
with other partners the countyand the city at the time,
(14:24):
talking with other partners thecounty and the city at the time
is, like you know, we think wecan help with this problem by
staffing some ambulances tosupplement the existing service
and then, ultimately, once westarted running, ambulances we
were left by ourselves, and soyou know that was never the
original, that was never theoriginal plan and, at the end of
the day, the model and the waywe were operating, taking into
account the four fire stationsthat we've opened during that
(14:47):
time, the almost 150firefighters that we've hired in
that time, the additionalapparatus, fire trucks,
equipment, we would not havebeen able to do all that under
the current model.
Chris Wolff (14:58):
You're saying it was the right financial plan.
Chief Perkins (15:00):
We were at $0.10 when we were having this
discussion.
We were at our max rate.
Now, granted, a number ofthings happened.
We had a pandemic where we sawour sales tax have some of the
most underperforming months we'dever seen in the history of
sales tax collection.
And then we saw the federalgovernment introduce the
stimulus packages and conceptssomething I'd never seen in my
(15:21):
lifetime.
I don't know about y'all and sothen we saw overperformance from
sales tax.
And then, of course, we saw thefollowing inflation and kind of
those reactions.
So for us, that's fire trucksincreasing by 30%, ambulances
increasing by 40%, staff andlabor costs exceedingly costly.
(15:42):
And here we are today withproperty values beginning to
decline and level out, and weare in fact looking back at
those forecasts.
We are going to be back at 10cents in those forecasts, which
is where all this started.
And so did it happen in theexact minute and day when we
said it would no, and I don'tthink that's fair or realistic
(16:03):
to expect someone to be able topredict the future to that
degree of certainty.
But we are approaching what wethought we would approach At the
end of the day, what you did,what you're saying, was
necessary.
The decisions the board madewere the right calls.
And so here we are.
We now have ESD 17 assisting uswith funding, as is Travis
(16:25):
County, and we've identified amodel that allows us to deliver
on the services that we areresponsible for in the community
and also be able to compensateand take care of the
firefighters who are providingthe service.
Chris Wolff (16:41):
Chief, your department has some transparency
stars, meaning that people canlook on and see what it is, and
if anyone does a little bit ofhomework, they're going to see
millions of dollars sitting inyour bank.
Can you talk about that andthen can you compare that to
other departments?
Yeah, that's a good question.
Chief Perkins (16:58):
So that's correct .
We have three transparencystars from the Texas Comptroller
, and so when you look on ourwebsite, there is an
overwhelming amount ofinformation available on our
finances there, and I challengeyou to go to another government
with that level of transparencyand availability, with the
documents we provide, and that'swhy we've been recognized for
(17:19):
it.
And so to your question we dohave a reserve fund, and so I'll
talk a little bit aboutreserves.
You know, for us as an ESD, wehave limited abilities to offset
unplanned costs, and so what Imean by that is a disaster comes
in, say I don't know, apandemic, a winter storm, a
(17:41):
really rough wildfire season.
These are not hypothetical,right?
Chris Wolff (17:44):
These are things that have happened.
Chief Perkins (17:46):
These are things we've dealt with the last five
years, and so these things willbring extraordinary costs, and
it's typically an overtime andequipment costs to the operation
, and so we have to plan forthat.
The other thing is you couldhave a fire truck wrecked and
you've got to replace that, andit doesn't work the way you
think it works in insurance, andyou could be out having to buy
(18:08):
and put out significant moneyfor a fire truck, and we've had
that happen.
We've had a person crash into afire truck and total one of our
fire engines.
So you have to plan.
My point in all this is youhave to plan for disasters, and
so that's the purpose of havingyour reserve, and you also want
to plan for economic downturn,so again you could have a period
where your sales tax plummets.
Chris Wolff (18:29):
So yeah, you got this reserve.
Is it a lot?
Chief Perkins (18:33):
We do.
So what we try to do is operateat about six months of our
operating costs for the year.
And so with a $43 millionbudget, you're looking at about
$26 year.
And so you know, with a $43million budget, you know you're
looking at about $26 million.
And so when we compareourselves to other ESDs, because
we're aware of the scrutinythat can come upon having money
in the bank, you know peoplewould say, hey, just, you know,
(18:56):
spend that money.
But we're aware of thatscrutiny.
So we studied this prettyheavily and again, when you
compare us to other ESDs,proportionally we have one of
the lowest reserves byproportion.
Right, most ESDs are carryingabout 100% of their operating
costs for the year and a lot ofthat you see in federal.
You know that's kind of likesome real common in federal
(19:18):
programs.
And so for us we're at sixmonths programs and so for us
we're at six months.
And the other huge thing aboutreserves, outside of the ability
to looking at as a riskmanagement tool, the ability to
kind of navigate unplannedevents and disasters, is when we
go to the capital markets andwe go to do big loans, like when
we go to do a loan for a firestation and a training field,
(19:39):
like we're doing right now thebank looks.
One of the primary criteriathey look at is they look we're
doing right now the bank looks.
One of the primary criteriathey look at is they look at the
money you have in the bank andso by having an adequate amount
of reserves, you can capitalizeon a really good interest rate,
and that literally saves thecommunity hundreds of thousands
of dollars with loans, and sothat's another reason why you
(20:02):
need to have the reserve.
But I think you know the bestanalogy that when people say
well, you know, just use yourreserve, just spend your savings
account Right.
Chris Wolff (20:11):
Hey, you got millions sitting in there, just
tap into it, yeah.
Chief Perkins (20:13):
So what we like.
The analogy I like to use isit's kind of like with you and
your personal finances and yoursavings account and your
mortgage payment right, so thatmortgage payment comes every
month, and it will come everymonth for as long as you live in
that house and so, or for 30years and so, but you could use
your savings account to pay yourmortgage payment.
(20:34):
You could do that.
Eventually, you will not haveany money in the savings and you
will have to pay that mortgagepayment, and then what happens
when your air condition breaks?
What happens when the roof goesout?
You won't have a savingsaccount anymore, and so that's
just not good governance, that'snot responsible government and
that's not how we plan for thefuture to protect a community
(20:56):
with the responsibility that wehave.
Chris Wolff (20:58):
And your organization is a little bit
different than, say, like publicworks or parks and recs.
Chief Perkins (21:02):
Yeah, I think well, no disrespect to those
people, the work they do isamazing and they are absolutely
vital and critical.
But what you see in a city,some of the options they have to
kind of offset costs is theycan shut the library down.
They can tell the utility folkshey, we're not going to mow
Monday through Thursday, we'reonly going to mow on Fridays,
and again we can close the pools.
(21:23):
We don't have those options andtypically during disasters and
turning tough times, we actuallygo into overtime.
We have to work harder.
We have to spend more money tomitigate and bring disasters
under control.
So it's just not an apples toapples comparison.
When you look at a city andpertaining to ESD and again
going back to, we have limitedoptions.
(21:44):
A city can issue debt,sometimes non-voter approved
debt.
We've seen that here locally.
We can't do that, we don't havethe ability to do that.
So we have to be very carefuland we have to be very safe, and
that's why you see our board.
They make very conservativedecisions because what we don't
ever want to happen is we don'tever want to come up short.
(22:04):
We don't want to fail thecommunity.
During the winter storm, therewere a lot of government
agencies that failed.
This agency did not.
We rose to an incredible crisisand the firefighters ran a
thousand calls in that week, andso that was because of of a lot
of planning under the thoughtprocesses and the mechanisms
(22:28):
that I'm describing here.
That's, that's what it gets you.
Chris Wolff (22:31):
I personally was on an extra truck that we don't
normally run, that was equippedwith snow chains and all the
equipment that we needed in caseof something like that.
So, chief.
So, how much money, if any, canresidents save if they vote yes
to repeal the sales tax andtake it away to defund the fire
department?
Chief Perkins (22:49):
So that would temporarily remove the sales tax
that we collect.
I saw the city put on theiragenda last week to call an
election for the creation of amunicipal development district
that would seek to capture thatof a municipal development
district that would seek tocapture that.
So if we were to lose the salestax, it's reasonable that
another government would try tocapture that.
(23:10):
So the sales tax that you paywhen you go to buy something it
won't go away, so somebody willbe collecting that, so there's
no savings there.
And then, in terms of propertytax, again, remember, we're
capped at 10 cents.
We're currently just below 8cents and, as I was explaining
to you, with the decline inhouse values and everything that
property values and everythingthat we've got to keep up with,
(23:32):
we're going to be back at 10cents and so the property taxes
are going to increase.
If the city were, if thismeasure was successful and the
city were to gain this fundingand as the petitioners have put
on their website and thespokesperson said that they
would fund EMS and even a firedepartment well, they would have
infrastructure needs, they'dhave to build facilities, they'd
(23:53):
have to buy apparatus, they'dhave to hire people, and so that
would be a duplication ofexisting infrastructure that
already exists, and so thatwould be long-term cost to the
community.
Chris Wolff (24:05):
So you already said the ISO rating is going to
increase insurance prices and wedid some checking here on the
show.
We got one insurance company,Lloyd's, that said it would be
at least 33% for a residentialproperty.
I believe that's commercial.
Yeah, so all right, I'm sureit's going to hit residential as
well.
We just don't know exactly howmuch it's going.
Okay, yeah, so all right, I'msure it's going to hit
residential as well.
We just don't know exactly howmuch it's going to be.
(24:27):
And then you said that theproperty tax rate is going to go
up because you guys need torecoup that money somehow, and
then, finally, the city is goingto have to pull debt in order
to create the infrastructure tobackfill that program.
Chief Perkins (24:42):
Yeah, to build facilities and to buy trucks and
equipment, All of that.
We're talking millions andmillions of dollars.
Chris Wolff (24:51):
All this for money.
That is, sales tax, whereyou're paying no matter what.
Chief Perkins (24:55):
Correct, assuming another government goes after
it and is successful in gettingit.
Chris Wolff (25:00):
Wow, Well, that is wild stuff.
Chief, Thank you so much forcoming on the show.
I think you did a great jobexplaining that and breaking it
down.
Really appreciate your time.
Chief Perkins (25:11):
Yeah, thanks for having me on, and happy to do so
.
Chris Wolff (25:15):
Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
I really appreciate you doingyour part to get the information
.
In our country, both nationallyand locally.
There's so many divisive issuesthat bring us apart, and one of
the results of that is peoplehave less trust in their
governmental institutions.
One of those governmentalinstitutions that still
(25:35):
maintains a high level of trustwith people is the fire service
in this country, and in thatvein, I think it's very
important to hear from our fireservice leaders speaking
directly to you, the listener,so we can clear some of this
stuff up.
If you enjoyed the show, pleaselike and subscribe.
You can send us a message.
We'd love to hear from you.
Tell us if you liked it, tellus if you've got other questions
(25:57):
that you'd like us to check out, and then also in the show
notes we have a link to thePerryman study talking about the
ESDs.
Very good information there,and if you'd like to get
involved, please do us a favor.
Share this episode with yourfriends and neighbors so that
they can become more informed.
I think a lot of this mistrustcomes from misinformation and
(26:19):
misunderstanding.
The more we can clear this up,the better.
In the next episode we're goingto be talking to firefighter
paramedic Cody Smith.
Cody's life changeddramatically on the night of
January 6, 2023, in the back ofa for-profit ambulance, when
Cody witnessed as a for-profitparamedic was responsible for
(26:40):
the death of one of ourPflugerville citizens.
Obviously, this had a hugeimpact on Cody and really
changed the trajectory of hislife.
Cody attended the PflugervilleFire Department Paramedic School
with the commitment of neverseeing anything like that happen
again.
We'll get his perspective onwhat he saw that night, how it
impacted him, and we'll talkabout the paramedic program.
(27:02):
We'll discuss why it's receivedsome scrutiny from the
community and we'll talk aboutwhat makes it different, as well
as its tenuous future shouldthe sales tax become abolished.
All that and more so tune in tothe next episode of
Pflugerville on fire.
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