May 20, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of The Pickleball and Partnership Podcast, host Charlotte Jukes invites Carrie Sans, a Licensed Marriage Therapist and Relationship Mentor, to discuss how pickleball can enhance your relationship. With nearly 20 years of experience, Carrie shares insights on effective communication, the importance of introducing novelty into relationships, and practical steps for addressing conflicts. The conversation explores the concept of relational intelligence and emphasizes the value of self-awareness and self-soothing in maintaining a thriving partnership. Discover how engaging in activities like pickleball can foster connection and growth within your relationships.
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
00:44 Meet Carrie Sans: Expert in Relationships
02:21 Carrie's Journey and Passion for Relationships
04:37 Pickleball Memories and Family Fun
08:56 The Importance of Novelty in Relationships
13:23 Effective Communication in Relationships
20:14 Navigating Conflict and Repair
21:31 Repairing After Conflict
22:13 Changing Your Environment
24:01 Practical Steps to Avoid Reactivity
30:44 Understanding Relational Intelligence
34:47 The Love Reset Guide
36:58 Final Thoughts and Resources
Cari Sans is a licensed marriage therapist and relationship mentor with nearly 20 years of experience helping individuals and couples create connected, thriving partnerships. Her approach is rooted in systems therapy and attachment theory, and she blends that with practical coaching tools to help clients break free from stuck patterns and create real, lasting change. Cari also leads women’s healing circles and teaches relational intelligence as a path to deeper self-awareness, stronger relationships, and a more heart-centered life.
Where To Find Carrie Sans:
https://www.facebook.com/cari.sanslmft
https://www.instagram.com/cari.sanslmft/
https://mailchi.mp/d5dcfc3f68a6/love-reset
Pickleball & Partnership Facebook Page
Please jump on over and say "Hi" - we would love to hear from you...
https://www.facebook.com/conejukes
https://www.facebook.com/groups/848118700833703
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pickleball-partnership/id1775742795
Pickleball & Partnership Email cejukes@gmail.com
Music: Purple Planet Music
Thanks to Purple Planet Music for Pickleball & Partnership Intro and Outro music Purple Planet Music is a collection of music written and performed by Chris Martyn and Geoff Harvey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charlotte Jukes (00:10):
This the pickleball and partnership
podcast, the place to talk.
Talk about building betterconnections with your partner.
Learning how to communicate witheach other and how to inject
fun.
Into your relationship allthrough the game of pickleball.
If that sounds like your cup oftea.
Pull up a chair grab your paddleand join me.
(00:32):
Your host, Charlotte Jukes.
For pickleball and partnership.
Charlotte J (00:44):
Welcome.
Today I am joined by CarrieSans, who is a licensed marriage
therapist and relationshipmentor.
With nearly 20 years ofexperience helping individuals
and couples create connected,thriving partnerships.
Her approach is rooted insystems therapy and attachment
(01:04):
theory, and she blends that withpractical coaching tools to help
clients break free from stuckpatterns and create real lasting
change.
Carrie also leads women'shealing circles and teaches
relational intelligence as apath to deeper self-awareness,
(01:25):
stronger relationships, and amore heart-centered life.
Welcome, Carrie.
Speaker 2 (2) (01:31):
Thanks, Charlotte.
Charlotte J (01:32):
It's so lovely to have you on here.
I really appreciate you jumpingon.
I just know you're going to haveso many nuggets of wisdom for us
that many people will be able totake away, whether they're
pickleball players or not,whether they're in a
relationship or not, because Ialways say, even if we are not
(01:53):
in a relationship with someoneelse.
We're always in a relationshipwith ourselves, right?
Speaker 2 (2) (01:59):
Absolutely.
Carrie (02:00):
With ourselves and we're in constant relationships.
We are in relationship to thatperson that's checking you out
at the register even, right?
Like how we interact withpeople.
It's all relational.
I.
Everything I talk about with myclients, I've said it can relate
to any relationship.
'cause it's all relational.
Charlotte J (02:19):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So I don't know too much aboutyou, Carrie.
I know that you have playedpickleball at some point and we
will get to that.
But maybe would you mind sharingwith listeners, like who is
Carrie and what would you likeus to know about you?
Carrie (02:38):
Oh, geez.
So, you read my bio so you getan idea of what, like I kinda do
in terms of working as atherapist.
So I work a lot withrelationship issues.
I navigate lots of relationshipsevery day and, I have three
children, so I am also a mom andthe work that I do is all
(03:00):
relational work.
It's.
I guess it's a sort of anobsession.
Just I just get very curiousabout, I grew up in a high
conflict divorce and I wasalways curious about the impact
of relationships.
I remember being in my undergradwork in as a psychology major
and my senior year we had thisproject and we were talking
(03:23):
about in psychology, it's veryindividually focused, like
what's happening in the innerpsyche.
And I was like, what about.
How that informs like therelationships inform a person's
life.
So I got really curious aboutthat.
And while I was doing that, Icame across this program called
Marriage and Family Therapy andI was like, oh yes, this is
(03:44):
where I want to be working.
And initially wanted to workwith divorced families because I
wanted other people to maybe notgo through the process in the
same way that I had grown up in.
And, while I was in grad school,didn't quite move in that
direction.
However, after grad school, Ikind of just landed in this
position where I was seeingcouples all the time.
(04:06):
Like that's who I was workingwith.
So it became sort of a niche forme.
I just.
Became very comfortable workingwith couples.
I do work with individuals aswell, but everybody that comes
in to see me focuses onrelationships.
So we do relational work.
It's not like they typicallycome to a therapist for anxiety
or depression.
(04:27):
Some of that may be there, butalways working on some sort of
relationship issue.
So I love talking about it andand working with the clients
that I do get to work with.
I do have an experience ofplaying pickleball, but uh, it's
funny because when you asked meabout coming on, I had been
(04:48):
talking about it with my kidsrecently about doing this so
many years ago, we had created acourt in our driveway.
So we had a pretty long drivewayand we had heard about it, so we
set up a net and we actuallychalk lined the driveway and
stuff, and we were playing.
And then somehow the net.
(05:08):
Got torn and we put it away andwe never went back to it.
But we've been talking about it,especially as the weather's
getting nice and where I live inNew York and let's start going
to some of the outdoor courtsand just getting into it again.
And then you popped into my lifeand I was like, this is so fun.
And listening to your story, Iwas like, oh, I can't wait to
(05:32):
play pickleball.
Charlotte J (05:33):
Isn't that funny How Yeah.
Divine timing, right?
Thinking about pickleball andthen there I was.
I showed up.
So you said you played with yourthree children.
Were they a young age then?
Yeah,
Carrie (05:46):
they, at the time they were young, so this was many
years ago.
So they were probably all at thetime, under 10.
And it was just fun'cause we allcould play it and and I liked it
'cause I've always been.
A badminton fan, not so much atennis fan.
So I felt like this wassomething that I could do, that
I had enough athletic ability toplay pickleball, but after
(06:08):
listening to your stories, I'mlike, oh, I have a lot to learn.
Charlotte J (06:11):
Oh I still have a lot to learn, but it's
interesting, isn't it?
And I think this is somethingthat I try and stress to people
all the time.
That pickleball is so accessibleand it is fun and it's so easy
to pick up a paddle and startplaying, and here you are.
You pick up paddles with yourchildren under the age of 10,
(06:34):
and you can all get out thereand have some real fun together.
Yeah.
Carrie (06:38):
So I'm looking forward to next week starting, hopefully
the rain has stopped and we'regonna get out there and start
playing.
So, yeah.
Perfect timing.
Charlotte J (06:48):
And are your children excited to do that too?
Carrie (06:51):
Yes.
They've been waiting and we'vehad about 10 consecutive days of
rain here, even so we haven'tbeen able to start.
So I'm really hoping that nextweek we can actually get out
there and I can start watchingsome videos and learning
Charlotte J (07:05):
that's a great idea.
And there are lots of videos outthere for sure.
I know my husband Neil, is alittle bit upset.
Obsessed with finding the latestvideos on YouTube or TikTok or
wherever that is.
But there is so much informationand advice and little pieces of
strategy that you can bring intoyour game.
(07:27):
I just love getting out thereand having fun and feeling like
I'm exercising yeah, it soundslike you have some courts.
Near you that you can go andplay?
Yeah, there are some courts andI actually was talking about it
with a friend last night.
We went to dinner and we talkedabout playing together as well,
and I know the colleges havesome indoor courts and there's
(07:48):
another one around here that I'mfamiliar with.
So yeah, we could play.
Even when it's not so nice.
Yeah, that's great.
And you're right.
You can play with anyone.
You can play with your partner,your husband, you can play with
a girlfriend, you can play withthe neighbor down the street.
Yeah.
You can just show up at a courtwith your paddle and a ball.
(08:08):
And there's always somebodythere, there's always somebody
there that you can jump in with.
Yeah.
Carrie (08:13):
Yeah.
I was seeing it also as anopportunity and I was listening
to, your story about it too, asan opportunity to meet people as
well.
I love the exercise part of it.
So I like be active, but just
Charlotte J (08:25):
to meet people.
Absolutely.
It's a great place to meetlike-minded people who want to
get out there and not sit athome scrolling on their phones.
And I think, you mentioned youplayed pickleball years ago, the
net broke, you put it away, lifegets busy and I think a lot of
people can relate to that.
(08:46):
We all have good intentions.
And then life happens.
Things get in the way of usreconnecting with each other.
How do we start again whenthings feel broken or out of
alignment?
Carrie (09:02):
Yeah.
I think when you know thatthat's what's going on, right?
Something doesn't feel right Oryou feel that disconnect that I
like to look at those asopportunities, right?
We can go spiral down and thinknegatively about it, or I.
Feel defeated by that idea thatmaybe that is coming up for you
(09:27):
for a reason, that okay, theremay have been some disconnect or
life has gotten so busy becausethat happens, especially, for
couples, couples that havefamilies, like a lot of things
can get lost right When you'retrying to.
Adult, I like to say, right?
Parent.
And that becomes such a bigfocus and you lose that ways of
(09:48):
connecting with each other.
So knowing when that happenswhat are some things that we can
do to reconnect?
One of the things that I likedabout what you're sharing, in
this idea of.
Pickleball being an opportunityfor a connection is that it
could introduce this novelty tothe relationship that is so
(10:09):
important for sustainable likeattraction in the relationship
when you.
Have been together for, so longover time we've become so much
alike in ways or so familiar.
I think people tend to take oneanother for granted or the
(10:30):
relationship, or not make it somuch a priority.
So I think that inserting somesort of novelty will bring new
energy to the relationship.
So I love this idea of.
Playing pickleball.
I know you even shared a storyabout doing a home renovation.
To me, even that, right?
That's a project you guys get tofocus on in a, and it gives you
(10:51):
different kind of energy.
I think the pickleball sounds alot more fun.
Charlotte J (10:57):
I would agree with you.
Hundred percent.
Carrie (11:00):
Right.
You know, and and there's, so Ifeel like there's just so many
good things about it, that canenhance a relationship.
Charlotte J (11:09):
And I think, you bring up a very good point
because in a relationship, Ithink we're all familiar with
the honeymoon phase, and thenthat's over and we get into that
humdrum of life.
And it's very easy to feelseparated from your partner as
though you're both just goingabout life and not really
(11:32):
connecting.
And I love that you use the wordnovelty.
Because I think that's whatpickleball brought to our
marriage.
We've known each other for over30 years.
We've been married for 28 ofthose.
But I think it's a consistentlooking for ways to bring
(11:53):
novelty into the relationship.
Right.
Carrie (11:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, to me it sounded like, youknow, again, listening to your
story, like this was a new focusfor, you brought in some of that
novelty, it gave the two of yousomething to work together
around like you both werelearning and, getting curious
about you both were growing.
I think that's really importantin a relationship too.
When you have one person youknow that's focused on their
(12:17):
growth and the other person isnot, that certainly can create a
block because what do you dowhen you're growing?
Do I fall back because they'renot growing.
The other person has to kind ofgrow to me.
So if you're doing thattogether, I think that's so
beautiful that shifts therelationship
Charlotte J (12:36):
And I think there often is that divide there.
And I think I talk to manywomen, my friends, people I come
across who feel as though theyare growing and they are
motivated to.
Feel more empowered and putthemselves out there, and they
want more for themselves inlife, but they feel as though
(12:59):
their partner is not quite inthe same place, and that's
tricky to navigate.
So yes, it's great if you canboth say.
Okay, let's go play pickleballtogether, or whatever that is.
Let's go and take dance lessonstogether, right?
Or let's just go and take a walkafter dinner every night.
(13:21):
It can be as simple as that.
But what would you say then tothose couples where one person
is really wanting to moveforward and their partner won't
get off the couch?
Carrie (13:33):
Yeah.
I think that's a great questionThey have to talk about that.
And I don't mean to make it sosimple, but because sometimes
just talking about it is wherethey get tripped up.
Because when I bring it up,maybe it's the way you bring it
up or maybe it's just that ahabitual pattern that the two of
you are in that.
What is being said is not what'sbeing heard we can get into
(13:57):
these patterns and relationshipswhere we react versus respond,
and when we're reacting.
I see that as like us in our,we're more in our armored state
or protective state.
And we're not in a relationalstate at that point.
So if we're not in a relationalstate, then are we really
(14:19):
listening to what the otherperson needs?
You know, we're listening maybeenough to know how am I gonna
respond?
Respond to this or we'reactivated, something has come up
for us.
We feel a need that we have toprotect ourselves, and then we,
we react with some form ofprotection like explaining,
justifying, shutting down,defending or attacking back
(14:41):
even, right?
These are ways we can react tosituations.
And then the issue that, I amfeeling maybe alone or
disconnected, that wasoriginally there.
It gets lost and then they nevercome back to this piece of, oh,
okay, so you're feelingdisconnected.
Let's talk about that.
(15:02):
What's making you feel that way?
And when I work with couples, Itake them through a process of
walking through a conversationbecause we're not having that
conversation.
If you're not talking to yourpartner about.
Hey, I'm feeling disconnected.
I would like to do this thing.
I really like to play pickleballtogether as a way for us to
(15:22):
connect, and they're not hearingany of that.
Maybe becoming defensive andthen they just stop, right?
So then the partner that wantsto express this or needs this,
doesn't continue to show up andhave that conversation or hold a
position of, this is reallyimportant, we need to talk about
it.
(15:43):
And I say in a, like a lovingfirm way, because if you
collapse and then say, well, Iguess this is just not what he
or she wants, and then gives upright?
Collapse in it, well now you'renever gonna get there with it.
So I say keep on coming back,but you know, paying attention
to your own reaction if theyreact and then you react in
(16:04):
response to that.
You are essentially moving awayfrom the core issue too.
You're allowing it to move away,so not react to that and come
back to, okay, in a way I seethat you, have your own thoughts
and feelings about this and I'mopen to hearing that.
Can we take turns?
Even like when I teach coupleshow to move through like a
(16:27):
conscious dialogue, I say thisis a framework just to even in
your own head, okay, I wanna beheard.
So I wanna make sure thatthey're hearing everything I'm
saying.
I wanna feel validated when I'msaying I want them to get it
understand me, empathize withme, and then I want support with
this.
So I, I help them use thatframework to just even ask for
(16:48):
what you need.
To have a dialogue about it, butI think a lot of people don't
have the dialogue right.
Charlotte J (16:55):
And we are not taught that.
We are not modeled thatnecessarily.
Exactly.
Maybe a few of us are lucky inthat we are, our parents are
able to do that, but I don'tthink many of us have that
dialogue model to us, and thenwe are not taught it.
It's not taught in school, it'snot taught at home.
And then we find ourselves inthese relationships.
(17:18):
And I think a lot of us feellike, we are drowning.
We are trying to keep our headabove water and we don't know
how to be heard.
And I think.
And I can only speak for womenbecause I, I'm a woman.
And it may be the same for menbut I think we also don't know
how to ask for what we want.
Carrie (17:41):
Oh, I know.
There is like a piece in theframework that I walk them
through where because once youget out of needing to go into
that self protection mode orarmor up.
So when you do that, you'rebypassing what it is that you
really need.
'cause you're just like, I gottasurvive.
I have to protect myself.
So you never really get to whatis it that I need.
(18:02):
So if you stop going right tothat protective armored place,
now you have to meet yourselfhere what is it that I really
need?
Right?
And if your partner's reallyhearing you actively listening
and reflecting back what you'resaying and you get to hear it,
you get to get more clear aboutwhat it is that you're trying to
say too.
(18:23):
Is that really what I'm tryingto say?
Because maybe it didn't reallycome out in the way that you
intended it to come out.
But if they can hold a containerfor you versus reacting, then
you get to hear back what you'resaying.
You're like that's it, butthat's not all of it.
And then you give them more.
And again, if they're notreactive to that and they can
just hear it and take it in andthey reflect it back and you're
(18:45):
like, oh yeah that, yeah, that'swhat I mean.
Oh, okay.
And now you can talk about whatthat's like for you, your
experience of it, and if theycan still hold that, you can get
to what is it that I'm needingas a result of that.
And I find, clients will be sochallenged, couples will be
like.
I don't know what I need.
And I'm like if you don't knowwhat you need, then how is your
(19:06):
partner gonna meet that need?
And I do have people, I'll tellmy clients like, I want you to
focus on meeting that need foryourself first, but sometimes
meeting your need.
Let's say it's the need forlove.
The most loving thing that youcan do for yourself is to
communicate your need, so itmight be part of that, but what
(19:29):
would be the thing if you needto feel reassurance at the
moment I.
What would help you to feel thatway?
What could you do?
But while you're there, theideas will come up and then that
gives you a better way tocommunicate it if you have more
clarity around it, but if youjust get activated and you go
here to, put your armor on, youtotally miss the opportunity to
(19:52):
get clear on what your needsare.
And then the relationshipdoesn't get to hold that.
Charlotte J (19:58):
Because then you're just, you're reacting and your
nervous system is just shuttingyou down.
Yeah.
And protecting you.
Like you say, putting the armoron and a conversation, an open
dialogue can't happen from thatplace.
Yeah.
Carrie (20:14):
Yeah.
When I was thinking about thisidea of bringing in pickleball
and partnership or like focusingon this, like even the act of
doing like something active,like playing pickleball
together.
And I'm just recalling'cause Ihad just listened to a story
that you and Neil weredescribing about you know, maybe
there was this tension before, Ithink it was a tournament or
(20:35):
something, but afterwards thetwo of you were able to come
back to repair.
So I feel like even being inthis like experience of doing
something active different, I.
You're you kind of takeyourselves outta your typical
pattern of relating and you'replaying this game and you're
moving and the energy'sdifferent.
(20:57):
Like you are showing updifferently in that moment too.
And so now I, when you come backto an issue afterwards, I think
it will be different.
You're gonna have a totallydifferent perspective on what
was going on and even be in adifferent place to actually come
back to repair.
(21:17):
There's going to be conflict.
I don't think any couples don'thave conflict.
I.
I know people want to avoidconflict, especially if the
message is that conflict is bad,but conflict is not bad.
It's the inability to repairafter the conflict that is
really the issue.
So whether the issue startswhile you're playing or just
(21:40):
something that's happening athome before, being in that place
of playing together and changingthat whole pattern of, I think
will allow for the two of you,or even if you're playing like
together, what if you were towork out an issue?
While you're playing.
Charlotte J (21:58):
Oh, I love that idea.
So each of you are either sideof the net just knocking the
ball to each other.
Yes.
Then your body is in a differentenvironment, so your mind is in
a different environment.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
And I'm also wondering perhaps,'cause I love this idea of
changing your environment, thatseems like a very simple and
(22:21):
perhaps effective thing thatcouples could do.
So if one person wanted toperhaps have an open discussion
about something.
I wonder then perhaps, would itbe helpful if you went and did
that on a walk rather thansitting in the house?
Carrie (22:39):
Absolutely.
I think so.
If you think about it in termsof the state of your emotional
state.
If you are in it at home andsomething starts up between the
two of you again, what state areyou in?
If you guys are sitting, on thesofa or maybe at the dinner
table or in bed at night?
(22:59):
If you shift your state like ifby just simply going out on a
walk, that's gonna change whatyou're bringing to the
situation.
But I do like this idea ofcouples.
Bringing it to the court andworking it out.
And just like, let's playtogether and talk about this
thing while we're moving inthis,
Charlotte J (23:20):
yeah.
And I always say that aboutpickleball is, it's so social
because the court is so small.
And we have this great drillingsession actually and it's called
the Kitchen Game.
So for people who playpickleball, and for those that
don't, there is the area eitherside of the net is called the
kitchen.
(23:42):
And you're not supposed to standin the kitchen, but you could
actually stand with your partneracross the net, hit the ball
back and forth, and have aconversation at the same time.
I love that, Carrie.
Okay.
Neil and I are going to try thatnext time we are on the court.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so if for anybodythinking, that sounds silly, I'm
(24:04):
not going to do that.
Are there any sort of simple,practical steps that people can
take?
To, help their own armor notcome up?
To help them not be so reactive,but also how do they start a
conversation with their partnerwho's perhaps not as willing as
(24:27):
them?
Carrie (24:28):
Well, I think one of the things I always say is don't
take it personally.
I think this is a good rule tofollow because if you're
reacting to it, you've taken iton, you've made it, you know
your issue too.
I always say maybe you were finea second ago.
(24:50):
Enjoying yourself, and all of asudden your partner shows up and
they have this issue.
If you react to it now you'vetaken some ownership of it and
you've taken the issue away fromyour partner because now.
You've made it your issue aswell.
You're not really holding themin, whatever's coming up for
them and listening to theirexperience and trying to
(25:11):
understand it.
Connect with them around it.
And if you don't have thosepieces, how are you really going
to repair or support them, oraddress the issue.
I think we have a tendency tojust wanna fix things and, as
women, we don't want ourpartners to fix things for us.
Right.
But women like, we'll do thattoo.
(25:32):
Something comes up and we justwanna fix the problem.
And I'm like, I get that.
And there's a place for that ina way.
But before you can even fix it.
Let's start at the beginning.
What is it you were even tryingto fix?
What is going on for thatperson?
So, if you're struggling in therelationship to have these
(25:53):
conversations, you might wannalook at just the history do you
provide that space?
Like you can start with justmodeling that kind of
conversation.
And that might not be thesolution to it, because
oftentimes women are the onesthat will bring up the issues
more than, men will.
Not all the time, but we like totalk about things, right?
(26:17):
And bring things up and get allthe details and the information.
So that might be the case, Butyou can ask your partner for
that kind of container to havethe conversation and I guess
just notice or pay attention towhether you're reacting to
something they said and try tocome back to.
(26:37):
I just need you to hear what'scoming up for me.
I.
I understand you have somethingcoming up for you right now, you
have your own thoughts,feelings, opinions about this
and I'm open to hearing that andright now, I don't wanna go back
and forth with it, just take amoment to hear what's coming up
for me.
Can you reflect back what you'rehearing?
(26:58):
So just slowing it down andpaying attention.
So one, don't take itpersonally.
'cause if you do, you're gonnareact to it so if you cannot
take that personally, then justhear what they have to say, and
then just reflect it back.
Or you feel this way when thishappened?
Okay, tell me more about that.
What happened, that made youbelieve that to be true about
(27:20):
the situation.
You're not making it yourproblem, it's their problem.
Charlotte J (27:26):
That's great advice.
'Cause I think we're all guiltyof that at times.
Is attaching a story to it thatmakes it about us?
Yeah.
And I found this myself.
If I can keep in my mind, in myconsciousness that when Neil is
talking, it's all about him andwhat he needs.
(27:49):
And his feelings, and it's notabout me at all.
I think it feels a lot safer tohold space for the other person.
Carrie (27:59):
Yeah.
If you are reacting Charlotte,then you're now holding that
space.
Right.
Let's say Neil comes in with anissue.
And even if he doesn't bring itup in a way that's like the most
effective way, like an Istatement, like, I feel this
way.
If he says, you did this and I'mmad, or I'm okay.
(28:19):
It's a you statement.
It might trigger something inyou and then you react to it.
But as soon as you react to it,now you've made it your problem
and the likely.
Thing that will happen is thatyour partner's gonna react to
your reaction and then you'regonna react to that reaction.
And then, so now you're in thislike vicious, loop with each
(28:41):
other.
And this core issue of likemaybe under that you pissed me
off when you did this thing, isI'm hurt by this action.
We might hear you did this, butit, so it's not about what you
did.
It's oh, when I did that thing,you felt hurt.
(29:02):
Okay.
Let me understand that likethrough your lens, through your
eyes your life experiences,right?
Your training, the messages youreceive from as a little kid,
like through your lens.
I can see how you would.
Feel that way.
And that doesn't mean you agreewith it necessarily.
Validation is not agreement.
Right.
It's not agreement.
(29:24):
But that's what we think we needso then if we react to it like.
I didn't mean that, or I didn'tdo that, or that was my
intention.
Now we've taken ownership of it.
We are trying to defendourselves or, and then we're so
far away we're not holding thatcontainer anymore.
And so that core issue of I'mhurt I need, to be seen in that.
(29:45):
Is missed.
It's such a missed opportunityfor connection.
And then when we're in thatvicious cycle, or that dance or
that pattern, we getdisconnected and the more it
keeps on happening, the moredisconnected, so we wanna break
that pattern.
So if you don't take thingspersonally, then you're less
likely to do that.
And then, if you can hold thatcontainer for your partner be
(30:09):
like, this is just what's comingup for them.
Let me try to understand it.
Let me hear it.
Let me validate it.
Let me empathize and then let mesupport and at that point, if
you have something that youwanna share, then ask them to
hold that.
Container for you so that youcan also move through whatever's
coming up for you.
And I think it's great ifcouples can do that and take
(30:30):
turns, but now you're not inthat power struggle, right?
You're both in a place whereyou're being seen and heard, and
you're building safety and trustand relational skills.
Charlotte J (30:43):
That sounds amazing.
And a great place for people tostart if they do want to have a,
a conversation with theirpartner and this must relate
then to relational intelligencethat you talk about, and for
couples who don't know aboutthat, can you just simplify what
relational intelligence isabout?
Carrie (31:04):
So, I think about like just a relational iq, like what
you were saying before, like wedon't really get taught how to
be relational in school.
We go to school, we take math,we take science, right?
We but we don't get a course onhow to communicate, handle
relationships and things likethat.
So it's learning how to be thatway.
(31:24):
So when we are in our reactiveplace, when our insecurity
buttons get activated.
Like the switch is turned on.
Our biological instinct likereaction is to go into survival
mode to protect ourselves.
And when we're in that place,we're not being relational.
Being relational, knowingourselves, like self-awareness,
(31:48):
communicating boundaries.
I see those kind of fallingunder this relational,
intelligent, a relational IQumbrella of learning how to
become that way.
And I think when we can, I.
Start to self-soothe ourselvesand not react to these
situations.
To gain greater self-awarenessin these situations and what our
(32:10):
buttons are and where wetypically go when our buttons
are, hit and not doing thosethings and coming back to this
more grounded, aligned place of,okay, this is what's coming up
for me.
This is what I need, this is howI'm gonna take care of myself.
WI think we just step into thiswiser state and relational
(32:31):
state.
I think we know how to be thatway,'cause I think that just
comes from a place of love.
And when we can be open to it,we're, when we're trying to
survive, we're not in, we're notin a place of love really.
We're just in survival.
We're not even in a place oflove for ourselves because we're
not even addressing.
What it is that we need.
Like we're in a way abandoningourselves and we're out of love,
(32:55):
even with ourselves.
At least that's the way I seeit.
Charlotte J (32:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Absolutely.
And I think, a first great stepwould really be to reconnect
with ourselves and loveourselves.
And like you mentioned earlier,model.
What we want for the otherperson.
If we want love from ourpartner, then we need to model
(33:19):
that to our partner and we needto model that to ourselves as
well.
Carrie (33:24):
Yeah.
Well, when we're in it, I knowit's easier said than done, like
when you're in it and somethingis coming up for you.
So that's why I said if you canpractice this rule of not taking
things so personally, you knowthat we are going to push each
other's buttons, it's verydifferent when you have these
emotions attached torelationships, like in an
(33:45):
intimate relationship, like amarriage or partnership,
committed partnership.
That's gonna be very different,than dealing with somebody at
work or while you're making asale.
So, okay, this is going tohappen.
What are my buttons?
How do I react when my buttonsare, activated?
Where does this come from?
(34:06):
What do I need?
How can I meet that need?
So then you're doing this selfsoothing.
You're actually addressingwhatever wound is there versus
just putting out a bandaid.
Let's take care of it.
And that doesn't mean it's gonnago away, or it won't be
activated another time.
But with time, you're not gonnabe activated as easily.
Charlotte J (34:29):
We are just more aware of it and able to self
soothe in the moment.
Oh my gosh.
Carrie, I have millions ofquestions.
I could talk to you all day.
It's amazing.
I think that's a great start.
I love those questions that yousuggest that each of us asks our
ourself.
I know you have a love resetguide where you offer people
(34:52):
quick practical shifts.
Can you speak to that a littlebit, yes.
One small change that a couplecould try this week.
Carrie (35:01):
it's a guide.
Three shifts that I wouldsuggest that a person, start
with to make sustainable changesin the relationship.
And one of'em is actuallyaround, raising your standards.
In a relationship.
And that's why I really likedthe pickleball too, because I
feel like raising yourstandards, oftentimes we think
(35:22):
about raising our standards.
The standards are about like whowe choose, in a relationship.
But it's also about what weallow in the relationship too,
and I think how we show up.
Thinking about like, where is mypart in this relationship?
How am I showing up?
What am I tolerating?
In this relationship.
So raising your standards like Iwas thinking about in terms of
(35:45):
just health do I feel healthy,if I'm sitting at home'cause I'm
depressed or down because mymarriage is disconnected and
scrolling on my phone, I'm notreally in a great place.
If I'm showing up like thatevery day in the relationship,
how is that contributing?
To the dynamic.
But if I'm out on the pickleballcourt and showing up in this way
(36:10):
and taking care of my health andmy energies in a different
place, like I'm raising myvibration and there my energy
and what I bring to therelationship that might be
something individually you do,but I think couples can do
things like that, whether it'sgoing out and playing pickleball
together or, I have all theseideas about let's go to sound
(36:30):
healing session together.
Raise your vibration together,raise your standard for how each
of you shows up and thenlearning how to show up
differently, breaking the oldpattern, and then, learning new
skills and showing up in adifferent way.
The Love Reset Guide is really athree shift, framework to use to
(36:53):
guide you to moving back to lovewith each
Charlotte J (36:56):
other.
Carrie (36:57):
Mm,
Charlotte J (36:58):
What I'm really hearing and taking from this is
we cannot expect other people tochange.
We cannot expect external thingsoutside of us to be different.
It really starts with us.
It really starts within and whenwe can change our mindset, our
(37:19):
behaviors.
The way that we react, we raiseour vibration, and that's what
we put out into the world.
And I am a firm believer in whatyou put out is what you attract
and what you receive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carrie (37:34):
And the blocks that come up in your relationship, those
are just opportunities for youto look at.
Learn something about yourselfin, in relation to that person.
They reflect back to you whereyou might, need to grow.
Or set a boundary To reframeconflict and challenges and or
(37:57):
blocks in the relationships asreally just why is this here for
me right now?
What is this calling me to lookat mm-hmm.
Charlotte J (38:04):
I love that and I'm so excited for you to go back
onto the pickleball court andyeah, I'm excited pickleball
again, it's a great time of yearbecause everything's moving
outdoors.
All the outdoor courts areopening up.
I know, I always look forward toplaying outside.
It's a little bit morechallenging with the weather,
(38:24):
but it's.
So nice to be outside withfriends, with strangers meeting
new friends and being active.
I'm excited.
You got me all pumped up
Carrie (38:36):
for it, Charlotte.
I cannot wait today.
I am going to get my newpaddles.
I'm gonna get the boys out therenext.
Week and I'm just excited tojust get out and play and one,
be outdoors right during thistime, but also just to have this
time to connect with my kids,with some new people.
And so thank you for, being thatlittle like nudge for me.
Charlotte J (38:56):
We all need those little nudges and I think.
I get excited when I realizethere are nudges.
Ooh, I can go and do this, that,or, try something new.
So, you're welcome.
And oh, it's been a delighttalking to you.
I could literally talk to youall day.
I would love for you to comeback on again at a future date
(39:19):
and you can tell us more aboutyour pickleball experience this
summer.
Yeah.
But Carrie, where can peoplefind you?
Carrie (39:27):
So my website is carriesans.com, I'm on Instagram
and Facebook and it'sCarrie.sans, LMFT for licensed
Marriage and Family Therapist.
Yeah.
Charlotte J (39:41):
And we'll put all those details in the show notes
as well.
Carrie (39:44):
Sounds great.
Thanks C Charlotte for ourconversation today.
I enjoyed it.
Charlotte J (39:48):
Thank you so much, Carrie.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation as much as I did.
Anything mentioned, includinglinks, notes, and a full episode
list, will be over on ourwebsite at
pickleballandpartnership.
buzzsprout.
com.
Com.
(40:08):
If you got something outta thisepisode, be sure to follow or
subscribe to Pickleball andPartnership on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, or wherever you listenso that you are notified of new
and upcoming episodes.
And if you're finding value inthis podcast, a free way to
(40:29):
support us is to leave a fivestar review, It truly means the
world to us.
This will help more peopleaccess these real conversations.
And if you haven't connectedwith myself or Neil personally,
we would love to meet you andsay hi over on our Facebook
page.
Thanks again for listening.
(40:50):
Please tune in next week foranother exciting episode of
Pickleball and partnership.
Remember, we're all learning,growing, and showing up in our
own ways.
And that's what matters most.
This the pickleball and partnership
podcast, the place to talk.
Talk about building betterconnections with your partner.
Learning how to communicate witheach other and how to inject
fun.
Into your relationship allthrough the game of pickleball.
If that sounds like your cup oftea.
Pull up a chair grab your paddleand join me.
(00:32):
Your host, Charlotte Jukes.
For pickleball and partnership.
Charlotte J (00:44):
Welcome.
Today I am joined by CarrieSans, who is a licensed marriage
therapist and relationshipmentor.
With nearly 20 years ofexperience helping individuals
and couples create connected,thriving partnerships.
Her approach is rooted insystems therapy and attachment
(01:04):
theory, and she blends that withpractical coaching tools to help
clients break free from stuckpatterns and create real lasting
change.
Carrie also leads women'shealing circles and teaches
relational intelligence as apath to deeper self-awareness,
(01:25):
stronger relationships, and amore heart-centered life.
Welcome, Carrie.
Speaker 2 (2) (01:31):
Thanks, Charlotte.
Charlotte J (01:32):
It's so lovely to have you on here.
I really appreciate you jumpingon.
I just know you're going to haveso many nuggets of wisdom for us
that many people will be able totake away, whether they're
pickleball players or not,whether they're in a
relationship or not, because Ialways say, even if we are not
(01:53):
in a relationship with someoneelse.
We're always in a relationshipwith ourselves, right?
Speaker 2 (2) (01:59):
Absolutely.
Carrie (02:00):
With ourselves and we're in constant relationships.
We are in relationship to thatperson that's checking you out
at the register even, right?
Like how we interact withpeople.
It's all relational.
I.
Everything I talk about with myclients, I've said it can relate
to any relationship.
'cause it's all relational.
Charlotte J (02:19):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So I don't know too much aboutyou, Carrie.
I know that you have playedpickleball at some point and we
will get to that.
But maybe would you mind sharingwith listeners, like who is
Carrie and what would you likeus to know about you?
Carrie (02:38):
Oh, geez.
So, you read my bio so you getan idea of what, like I kinda do
in terms of working as atherapist.
So I work a lot withrelationship issues.
I navigate lots of relationshipsevery day and, I have three
children, so I am also a mom andthe work that I do is all
(03:00):
relational work.
It's.
I guess it's a sort of anobsession.
Just I just get very curiousabout, I grew up in a high
conflict divorce and I wasalways curious about the impact
of relationships.
I remember being in my undergradwork in as a psychology major
and my senior year we had thisproject and we were talking
(03:23):
about in psychology, it's veryindividually focused, like
what's happening in the innerpsyche.
And I was like, what about.
How that informs like therelationships inform a person's
life.
So I got really curious aboutthat.
And while I was doing that, Icame across this program called
Marriage and Family Therapy andI was like, oh yes, this is
(03:44):
where I want to be working.
And initially wanted to workwith divorced families because I
wanted other people to maybe notgo through the process in the
same way that I had grown up in.
And, while I was in grad school,didn't quite move in that
direction.
However, after grad school, Ikind of just landed in this
position where I was seeingcouples all the time.
(04:06):
Like that's who I was workingwith.
So it became sort of a niche forme.
I just.
Became very comfortable workingwith couples.
I do work with individuals aswell, but everybody that comes
in to see me focuses onrelationships.
So we do relational work.
It's not like they typicallycome to a therapist for anxiety
or depression.
(04:27):
Some of that may be there, butalways working on some sort of
relationship issue.
So I love talking about it andand working with the clients
that I do get to work with.
I do have an experience ofplaying pickleball, but uh, it's
funny because when you asked meabout coming on, I had been
(04:48):
talking about it with my kidsrecently about doing this so
many years ago, we had created acourt in our driveway.
So we had a pretty long drivewayand we had heard about it, so we
set up a net and we actuallychalk lined the driveway and
stuff, and we were playing.
And then somehow the net.
(05:08):
Got torn and we put it away andwe never went back to it.
But we've been talking about it,especially as the weather's
getting nice and where I live inNew York and let's start going
to some of the outdoor courtsand just getting into it again.
And then you popped into my lifeand I was like, this is so fun.
And listening to your story, Iwas like, oh, I can't wait to
(05:32):
play pickleball.
Charlotte J (05:33):
Isn't that funny How Yeah.
Divine timing, right?
Thinking about pickleball andthen there I was.
I showed up.
So you said you played with yourthree children.
Were they a young age then?
Yeah,
Carrie (05:46):
they, at the time they were young, so this was many
years ago.
So they were probably all at thetime, under 10.
And it was just fun'cause we allcould play it and and I liked it
'cause I've always been.
A badminton fan, not so much atennis fan.
So I felt like this wassomething that I could do, that
I had enough athletic ability toplay pickleball, but after
(06:08):
listening to your stories, I'mlike, oh, I have a lot to learn.
Charlotte J (06:11):
Oh I still have a lot to learn, but it's
interesting, isn't it?
And I think this is somethingthat I try and stress to people
all the time.
That pickleball is so accessibleand it is fun and it's so easy
to pick up a paddle and startplaying, and here you are.
You pick up paddles with yourchildren under the age of 10,
(06:34):
and you can all get out thereand have some real fun together.
Yeah.
Carrie (06:38):
So I'm looking forward to next week starting, hopefully
the rain has stopped and we'regonna get out there and start
playing.
So, yeah.
Perfect timing.
Charlotte J (06:48):
And are your children excited to do that too?
Carrie (06:51):
Yes.
They've been waiting and we'vehad about 10 consecutive days of
rain here, even so we haven'tbeen able to start.
So I'm really hoping that nextweek we can actually get out
there and I can start watchingsome videos and learning
Charlotte J (07:05):
that's a great idea.
And there are lots of videos outthere for sure.
I know my husband Neil, is alittle bit upset.
Obsessed with finding the latestvideos on YouTube or TikTok or
wherever that is.
But there is so much informationand advice and little pieces of
strategy that you can bring intoyour game.
(07:27):
I just love getting out thereand having fun and feeling like
I'm exercising yeah, it soundslike you have some courts.
Near you that you can go andplay?
Yeah, there are some courts andI actually was talking about it
with a friend last night.
We went to dinner and we talkedabout playing together as well,
and I know the colleges havesome indoor courts and there's
(07:48):
another one around here that I'mfamiliar with.
So yeah, we could play.
Even when it's not so nice.
Yeah, that's great.
And you're right.
You can play with anyone.
You can play with your partner,your husband, you can play with
a girlfriend, you can play withthe neighbor down the street.
Yeah.
You can just show up at a courtwith your paddle and a ball.
(08:08):
And there's always somebodythere, there's always somebody
there that you can jump in with.
Yeah.
Carrie (08:13):
Yeah.
I was seeing it also as anopportunity and I was listening
to, your story about it too, asan opportunity to meet people as
well.
I love the exercise part of it.
So I like be active, but just
Charlotte J (08:25):
to meet people.
Absolutely.
It's a great place to meetlike-minded people who want to
get out there and not sit athome scrolling on their phones.
And I think, you mentioned youplayed pickleball years ago, the
net broke, you put it away, lifegets busy and I think a lot of
people can relate to that.
(08:46):
We all have good intentions.
And then life happens.
Things get in the way of usreconnecting with each other.
How do we start again whenthings feel broken or out of
alignment?
Carrie (09:02):
Yeah.
I think when you know thatthat's what's going on, right?
Something doesn't feel right Oryou feel that disconnect that I
like to look at those asopportunities, right?
We can go spiral down and thinknegatively about it, or I.
Feel defeated by that idea thatmaybe that is coming up for you
(09:27):
for a reason, that okay, theremay have been some disconnect or
life has gotten so busy becausethat happens, especially, for
couples, couples that havefamilies, like a lot of things
can get lost right When you'retrying to.
Adult, I like to say, right?
Parent.
And that becomes such a bigfocus and you lose that ways of
(09:48):
connecting with each other.
So knowing when that happenswhat are some things that we can
do to reconnect?
One of the things that I likedabout what you're sharing, in
this idea of.
Pickleball being an opportunityfor a connection is that it
could introduce this novelty tothe relationship that is so
(10:09):
important for sustainable likeattraction in the relationship
when you.
Have been together for, so longover time we've become so much
alike in ways or so familiar.
I think people tend to take oneanother for granted or the
(10:30):
relationship, or not make it somuch a priority.
So I think that inserting somesort of novelty will bring new
energy to the relationship.
So I love this idea of.
Playing pickleball.
I know you even shared a storyabout doing a home renovation.
To me, even that, right?
That's a project you guys get tofocus on in a, and it gives you
(10:51):
different kind of energy.
I think the pickleball sounds alot more fun.
Charlotte J (10:57):
I would agree with you.
Hundred percent.
Carrie (11:00):
Right.
You know, and and there's, so Ifeel like there's just so many
good things about it, that canenhance a relationship.
Charlotte J (11:09):
And I think, you bring up a very good point
because in a relationship, Ithink we're all familiar with
the honeymoon phase, and thenthat's over and we get into that
humdrum of life.
And it's very easy to feelseparated from your partner as
though you're both just goingabout life and not really
(11:32):
connecting.
And I love that you use the wordnovelty.
Because I think that's whatpickleball brought to our
marriage.
We've known each other for over30 years.
We've been married for 28 ofthose.
But I think it's a consistentlooking for ways to bring
(11:53):
novelty into the relationship.
Right.
Carrie (11:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, to me it sounded like, youknow, again, listening to your
story, like this was a new focusfor, you brought in some of that
novelty, it gave the two of yousomething to work together
around like you both werelearning and, getting curious
about you both were growing.
I think that's really importantin a relationship too.
When you have one person youknow that's focused on their
(12:17):
growth and the other person isnot, that certainly can create a
block because what do you dowhen you're growing?
Do I fall back because they'renot growing.
The other person has to kind ofgrow to me.
So if you're doing thattogether, I think that's so
beautiful that shifts therelationship
Charlotte J (12:36):
And I think there often is that divide there.
And I think I talk to manywomen, my friends, people I come
across who feel as though theyare growing and they are
motivated to.
Feel more empowered and putthemselves out there, and they
want more for themselves inlife, but they feel as though
(12:59):
their partner is not quite inthe same place, and that's
tricky to navigate.
So yes, it's great if you canboth say.
Okay, let's go play pickleballtogether, or whatever that is.
Let's go and take dance lessonstogether, right?
Or let's just go and take a walkafter dinner every night.
(13:21):
It can be as simple as that.
But what would you say then tothose couples where one person
is really wanting to moveforward and their partner won't
get off the couch?
Carrie (13:33):
Yeah.
I think that's a great questionThey have to talk about that.
And I don't mean to make it sosimple, but because sometimes
just talking about it is wherethey get tripped up.
Because when I bring it up,maybe it's the way you bring it
up or maybe it's just that ahabitual pattern that the two of
you are in that.
What is being said is not what'sbeing heard we can get into
(13:57):
these patterns and relationshipswhere we react versus respond,
and when we're reacting.
I see that as like us in our,we're more in our armored state
or protective state.
And we're not in a relationalstate at that point.
So if we're not in a relationalstate, then are we really
(14:19):
listening to what the otherperson needs?
You know, we're listening maybeenough to know how am I gonna
respond?
Respond to this or we'reactivated, something has come up
for us.
We feel a need that we have toprotect ourselves, and then we,
we react with some form ofprotection like explaining,
justifying, shutting down,defending or attacking back
(14:41):
even, right?
These are ways we can react tosituations.
And then the issue that, I amfeeling maybe alone or
disconnected, that wasoriginally there.
It gets lost and then they nevercome back to this piece of, oh,
okay, so you're feelingdisconnected.
Let's talk about that.
(15:02):
What's making you feel that way?
And when I work with couples, Itake them through a process of
walking through a conversationbecause we're not having that
conversation.
If you're not talking to yourpartner about.
Hey, I'm feeling disconnected.
I would like to do this thing.
I really like to play pickleballtogether as a way for us to
(15:22):
connect, and they're not hearingany of that.
Maybe becoming defensive andthen they just stop, right?
So then the partner that wantsto express this or needs this,
doesn't continue to show up andhave that conversation or hold a
position of, this is reallyimportant, we need to talk about
it.
(15:43):
And I say in a, like a lovingfirm way, because if you
collapse and then say, well, Iguess this is just not what he
or she wants, and then gives upright?
Collapse in it, well now you'renever gonna get there with it.
So I say keep on coming back,but you know, paying attention
to your own reaction if theyreact and then you react in
(16:04):
response to that.
You are essentially moving awayfrom the core issue too.
You're allowing it to move away,so not react to that and come
back to, okay, in a way I seethat you, have your own thoughts
and feelings about this and I'mopen to hearing that.
Can we take turns?
Even like when I teach coupleshow to move through like a
(16:27):
conscious dialogue, I say thisis a framework just to even in
your own head, okay, I wanna beheard.
So I wanna make sure thatthey're hearing everything I'm
saying.
I wanna feel validated when I'msaying I want them to get it
understand me, empathize withme, and then I want support with
this.
So I, I help them use thatframework to just even ask for
(16:48):
what you need.
To have a dialogue about it, butI think a lot of people don't
have the dialogue right.
Charlotte J (16:55):
And we are not taught that.
We are not modeled thatnecessarily.
Exactly.
Maybe a few of us are lucky inthat we are, our parents are
able to do that, but I don'tthink many of us have that
dialogue model to us, and thenwe are not taught it.
It's not taught in school, it'snot taught at home.
And then we find ourselves inthese relationships.
(17:18):
And I think a lot of us feellike, we are drowning.
We are trying to keep our headabove water and we don't know
how to be heard.
And I think.
And I can only speak for womenbecause I, I'm a woman.
And it may be the same for menbut I think we also don't know
how to ask for what we want.
Carrie (17:41):
Oh, I know.
There is like a piece in theframework that I walk them
through where because once youget out of needing to go into
that self protection mode orarmor up.
So when you do that, you'rebypassing what it is that you
really need.
'cause you're just like, I gottasurvive.
I have to protect myself.
So you never really get to whatis it that I need.
(18:02):
So if you stop going right tothat protective armored place,
now you have to meet yourselfhere what is it that I really
need?
Right?
And if your partner's reallyhearing you actively listening
and reflecting back what you'resaying and you get to hear it,
you get to get more clear aboutwhat it is that you're trying to
say too.
(18:23):
Is that really what I'm tryingto say?
Because maybe it didn't reallycome out in the way that you
intended it to come out.
But if they can hold a containerfor you versus reacting, then
you get to hear back what you'resaying.
You're like that's it, butthat's not all of it.
And then you give them more.
And again, if they're notreactive to that and they can
just hear it and take it in andthey reflect it back and you're
(18:45):
like, oh yeah that, yeah, that'swhat I mean.
Oh, okay.
And now you can talk about whatthat's like for you, your
experience of it, and if theycan still hold that, you can get
to what is it that I'm needingas a result of that.
And I find, clients will be sochallenged, couples will be
like.
I don't know what I need.
And I'm like if you don't knowwhat you need, then how is your
(19:06):
partner gonna meet that need?
And I do have people, I'll tellmy clients like, I want you to
focus on meeting that need foryourself first, but sometimes
meeting your need.
Let's say it's the need forlove.
The most loving thing that youcan do for yourself is to
communicate your need, so itmight be part of that, but what
(19:29):
would be the thing if you needto feel reassurance at the
moment I.
What would help you to feel thatway?
What could you do?
But while you're there, theideas will come up and then that
gives you a better way tocommunicate it if you have more
clarity around it, but if youjust get activated and you go
here to, put your armor on, youtotally miss the opportunity to
(19:52):
get clear on what your needsare.
And then the relationshipdoesn't get to hold that.
Charlotte J (19:58):
Because then you're just, you're reacting and your
nervous system is just shuttingyou down.
Yeah.
And protecting you.
Like you say, putting the armoron and a conversation, an open
dialogue can't happen from thatplace.
Yeah.
Carrie (20:14):
Yeah.
When I was thinking about thisidea of bringing in pickleball
and partnership or like focusingon this, like even the act of
doing like something active,like playing pickleball
together.
And I'm just recalling'cause Ihad just listened to a story
that you and Neil weredescribing about you know, maybe
there was this tension before, Ithink it was a tournament or
(20:35):
something, but afterwards thetwo of you were able to come
back to repair.
So I feel like even being inthis like experience of doing
something active different, I.
You're you kind of takeyourselves outta your typical
pattern of relating and you'replaying this game and you're
moving and the energy'sdifferent.
(20:57):
Like you are showing updifferently in that moment too.
And so now I, when you come backto an issue afterwards, I think
it will be different.
You're gonna have a totallydifferent perspective on what
was going on and even be in adifferent place to actually come
back to repair.
(21:17):
There's going to be conflict.
I don't think any couples don'thave conflict.
I.
I know people want to avoidconflict, especially if the
message is that conflict is bad,but conflict is not bad.
It's the inability to repairafter the conflict that is
really the issue.
So whether the issue startswhile you're playing or just
(21:40):
something that's happening athome before, being in that place
of playing together and changingthat whole pattern of, I think
will allow for the two of you,or even if you're playing like
together, what if you were towork out an issue?
While you're playing.
Charlotte J (21:58):
Oh, I love that idea.
So each of you are either sideof the net just knocking the
ball to each other.
Yes.
Then your body is in a differentenvironment, so your mind is in
a different environment.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
And I'm also wondering perhaps,'cause I love this idea of
changing your environment, thatseems like a very simple and
(22:21):
perhaps effective thing thatcouples could do.
So if one person wanted toperhaps have an open discussion
about something.
I wonder then perhaps, would itbe helpful if you went and did
that on a walk rather thansitting in the house?
Carrie (22:39):
Absolutely.
I think so.
If you think about it in termsof the state of your emotional
state.
If you are in it at home andsomething starts up between the
two of you again, what state areyou in?
If you guys are sitting, on thesofa or maybe at the dinner
table or in bed at night?
(22:59):
If you shift your state like ifby just simply going out on a
walk, that's gonna change whatyou're bringing to the
situation.
But I do like this idea ofcouples.
Bringing it to the court andworking it out.
And just like, let's playtogether and talk about this
thing while we're moving inthis,
Charlotte J (23:20):
yeah.
And I always say that aboutpickleball is, it's so social
because the court is so small.
And we have this great drillingsession actually and it's called
the Kitchen Game.
So for people who playpickleball, and for those that
don't, there is the area eitherside of the net is called the
kitchen.
(23:42):
And you're not supposed to standin the kitchen, but you could
actually stand with your partneracross the net, hit the ball
back and forth, and have aconversation at the same time.
I love that, Carrie.
Okay.
Neil and I are going to try thatnext time we are on the court.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so if for anybodythinking, that sounds silly, I'm
(24:04):
not going to do that.
Are there any sort of simple,practical steps that people can
take?
To, help their own armor notcome up?
To help them not be so reactive,but also how do they start a
conversation with their partnerwho's perhaps not as willing as
(24:27):
them?
Carrie (24:28):
Well, I think one of the things I always say is don't
take it personally.
I think this is a good rule tofollow because if you're
reacting to it, you've taken iton, you've made it, you know
your issue too.
I always say maybe you were finea second ago.
(24:50):
Enjoying yourself, and all of asudden your partner shows up and
they have this issue.
If you react to it now you'vetaken some ownership of it and
you've taken the issue away fromyour partner because now.
You've made it your issue aswell.
You're not really holding themin, whatever's coming up for
them and listening to theirexperience and trying to
(25:11):
understand it.
Connect with them around it.
And if you don't have thosepieces, how are you really going
to repair or support them, oraddress the issue.
I think we have a tendency tojust wanna fix things and, as
women, we don't want ourpartners to fix things for us.
Right.
But women like, we'll do thattoo.
(25:32):
Something comes up and we justwanna fix the problem.
And I'm like, I get that.
And there's a place for that ina way.
But before you can even fix it.
Let's start at the beginning.
What is it you were even tryingto fix?
What is going on for thatperson?
So, if you're struggling in therelationship to have these
(25:53):
conversations, you might wannalook at just the history do you
provide that space?
Like you can start with justmodeling that kind of
conversation.
And that might not be thesolution to it, because
oftentimes women are the onesthat will bring up the issues
more than, men will.
Not all the time, but we like totalk about things, right?
(26:17):
And bring things up and get allthe details and the information.
So that might be the case, Butyou can ask your partner for
that kind of container to havethe conversation and I guess
just notice or pay attention towhether you're reacting to
something they said and try tocome back to.
(26:37):
I just need you to hear what'scoming up for me.
I.
I understand you have somethingcoming up for you right now, you
have your own thoughts,feelings, opinions about this
and I'm open to hearing that andright now, I don't wanna go back
and forth with it, just take amoment to hear what's coming up
for me.
Can you reflect back what you'rehearing?
(26:58):
So just slowing it down andpaying attention.
So one, don't take itpersonally.
'cause if you do, you're gonnareact to it so if you cannot
take that personally, then justhear what they have to say, and
then just reflect it back.
Or you feel this way when thishappened?
Okay, tell me more about that.
What happened, that made youbelieve that to be true about
(27:20):
the situation.
You're not making it yourproblem, it's their problem.
Charlotte J (27:26):
That's great advice.
'Cause I think we're all guiltyof that at times.
Is attaching a story to it thatmakes it about us?
Yeah.
And I found this myself.
If I can keep in my mind, in myconsciousness that when Neil is
talking, it's all about him andwhat he needs.
(27:49):
And his feelings, and it's notabout me at all.
I think it feels a lot safer tohold space for the other person.
Carrie (27:59):
Yeah.
If you are reacting Charlotte,then you're now holding that
space.
Right.
Let's say Neil comes in with anissue.
And even if he doesn't bring itup in a way that's like the most
effective way, like an Istatement, like, I feel this
way.
If he says, you did this and I'mmad, or I'm okay.
(28:19):
It's a you statement.
It might trigger something inyou and then you react to it.
But as soon as you react to it,now you've made it your problem
and the likely.
Thing that will happen is thatyour partner's gonna react to
your reaction and then you'regonna react to that reaction.
And then, so now you're in thislike vicious, loop with each
(28:41):
other.
And this core issue of likemaybe under that you pissed me
off when you did this thing, isI'm hurt by this action.
We might hear you did this, butit, so it's not about what you
did.
It's oh, when I did that thing,you felt hurt.
(29:02):
Okay.
Let me understand that likethrough your lens, through your
eyes your life experiences,right?
Your training, the messages youreceive from as a little kid,
like through your lens.
I can see how you would.
Feel that way.
And that doesn't mean you agreewith it necessarily.
Validation is not agreement.
Right.
It's not agreement.
(29:24):
But that's what we think we needso then if we react to it like.
I didn't mean that, or I didn'tdo that, or that was my
intention.
Now we've taken ownership of it.
We are trying to defendourselves or, and then we're so
far away we're not holding thatcontainer anymore.
And so that core issue of I'mhurt I need, to be seen in that.
(29:45):
Is missed.
It's such a missed opportunityfor connection.
And then when we're in thatvicious cycle, or that dance or
that pattern, we getdisconnected and the more it
keeps on happening, the moredisconnected, so we wanna break
that pattern.
So if you don't take thingspersonally, then you're less
likely to do that.
And then, if you can hold thatcontainer for your partner be
(30:09):
like, this is just what's comingup for them.
Let me try to understand it.
Let me hear it.
Let me validate it.
Let me empathize and then let mesupport and at that point, if
you have something that youwanna share, then ask them to
hold that.
Container for you so that youcan also move through whatever's
coming up for you.
And I think it's great ifcouples can do that and take
(30:30):
turns, but now you're not inthat power struggle, right?
You're both in a place whereyou're being seen and heard, and
you're building safety and trustand relational skills.
Charlotte J (30:43):
That sounds amazing.
And a great place for people tostart if they do want to have a,
a conversation with theirpartner and this must relate
then to relational intelligencethat you talk about, and for
couples who don't know aboutthat, can you just simplify what
relational intelligence isabout?
Carrie (31:04):
So, I think about like just a relational iq, like what
you were saying before, like wedon't really get taught how to
be relational in school.
We go to school, we take math,we take science, right?
We but we don't get a course onhow to communicate, handle
relationships and things likethat.
So it's learning how to be thatway.
(31:24):
So when we are in our reactiveplace, when our insecurity
buttons get activated.
Like the switch is turned on.
Our biological instinct likereaction is to go into survival
mode to protect ourselves.
And when we're in that place,we're not being relational.
Being relational, knowingourselves, like self-awareness,
(31:48):
communicating boundaries.
I see those kind of fallingunder this relational,
intelligent, a relational IQumbrella of learning how to
become that way.
And I think when we can, I.
Start to self-soothe ourselvesand not react to these
situations.
To gain greater self-awarenessin these situations and what our
(32:10):
buttons are and where wetypically go when our buttons
are, hit and not doing thosethings and coming back to this
more grounded, aligned place of,okay, this is what's coming up
for me.
This is what I need, this is howI'm gonna take care of myself.
WI think we just step into thiswiser state and relational
(32:31):
state.
I think we know how to be thatway,'cause I think that just
comes from a place of love.
And when we can be open to it,we're, when we're trying to
survive, we're not in, we're notin a place of love really.
We're just in survival.
We're not even in a place oflove for ourselves because we're
not even addressing.
What it is that we need.
Like we're in a way abandoningourselves and we're out of love,
(32:55):
even with ourselves.
At least that's the way I seeit.
Charlotte J (32:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Absolutely.
And I think, a first great stepwould really be to reconnect
with ourselves and loveourselves.
And like you mentioned earlier,model.
What we want for the otherperson.
If we want love from ourpartner, then we need to model
(33:19):
that to our partner and we needto model that to ourselves as
well.
Carrie (33:24):
Yeah.
Well, when we're in it, I knowit's easier said than done, like
when you're in it and somethingis coming up for you.
So that's why I said if you canpractice this rule of not taking
things so personally, you knowthat we are going to push each
other's buttons, it's verydifferent when you have these
emotions attached torelationships, like in an
(33:45):
intimate relationship, like amarriage or partnership,
committed partnership.
That's gonna be very different,than dealing with somebody at
work or while you're making asale.
So, okay, this is going tohappen.
What are my buttons?
How do I react when my buttonsare, activated?
Where does this come from?
(34:06):
What do I need?
How can I meet that need?
So then you're doing this selfsoothing.
You're actually addressingwhatever wound is there versus
just putting out a bandaid.
Let's take care of it.
And that doesn't mean it's gonnago away, or it won't be
activated another time.
But with time, you're not gonnabe activated as easily.
Charlotte J (34:29):
We are just more aware of it and able to self
soothe in the moment.
Oh my gosh.
Carrie, I have millions ofquestions.
I could talk to you all day.
It's amazing.
I think that's a great start.
I love those questions that yousuggest that each of us asks our
ourself.
I know you have a love resetguide where you offer people
(34:52):
quick practical shifts.
Can you speak to that a littlebit, yes.
One small change that a couplecould try this week.
Carrie (35:01):
it's a guide.
Three shifts that I wouldsuggest that a person, start
with to make sustainable changesin the relationship.
And one of'em is actuallyaround, raising your standards.
In a relationship.
And that's why I really likedthe pickleball too, because I
feel like raising yourstandards, oftentimes we think
(35:22):
about raising our standards.
The standards are about like whowe choose, in a relationship.
But it's also about what weallow in the relationship too,
and I think how we show up.
Thinking about like, where is mypart in this relationship?
How am I showing up?
What am I tolerating?
In this relationship.
So raising your standards like Iwas thinking about in terms of
(35:45):
just health do I feel healthy,if I'm sitting at home'cause I'm
depressed or down because mymarriage is disconnected and
scrolling on my phone, I'm notreally in a great place.
If I'm showing up like thatevery day in the relationship,
how is that contributing?
To the dynamic.
But if I'm out on the pickleballcourt and showing up in this way
(36:10):
and taking care of my health andmy energies in a different
place, like I'm raising myvibration and there my energy
and what I bring to therelationship that might be
something individually you do,but I think couples can do
things like that, whether it'sgoing out and playing pickleball
together or, I have all theseideas about let's go to sound
(36:30):
healing session together.
Raise your vibration together,raise your standard for how each
of you shows up and thenlearning how to show up
differently, breaking the oldpattern, and then, learning new
skills and showing up in adifferent way.
The Love Reset Guide is really athree shift, framework to use to
(36:53):
guide you to moving back to lovewith each
Charlotte J (36:56):
other.
Carrie (36:57):
Mm,
Charlotte J (36:58):
What I'm really hearing and taking from this is
we cannot expect other people tochange.
We cannot expect external thingsoutside of us to be different.
It really starts with us.
It really starts within and whenwe can change our mindset, our
(37:19):
behaviors.
The way that we react, we raiseour vibration, and that's what
we put out into the world.
And I am a firm believer in whatyou put out is what you attract
and what you receive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carrie (37:34):
And the blocks that come up in your relationship, those
are just opportunities for youto look at.
Learn something about yourselfin, in relation to that person.
They reflect back to you whereyou might, need to grow.
Or set a boundary To reframeconflict and challenges and or
(37:57):
blocks in the relationships asreally just why is this here for
me right now?
What is this calling me to lookat mm-hmm.
Charlotte J (38:04):
I love that and I'm so excited for you to go back
onto the pickleball court andyeah, I'm excited pickleball
again, it's a great time of yearbecause everything's moving
outdoors.
All the outdoor courts areopening up.
I know, I always look forward toplaying outside.
It's a little bit morechallenging with the weather,
(38:24):
but it's.
So nice to be outside withfriends, with strangers meeting
new friends and being active.
I'm excited.
You got me all pumped up
Carrie (38:36):
for it, Charlotte.
I cannot wait today.
I am going to get my newpaddles.
I'm gonna get the boys out therenext.
Week and I'm just excited tojust get out and play and one,
be outdoors right during thistime, but also just to have this
time to connect with my kids,with some new people.
And so thank you for, being thatlittle like nudge for me.
Charlotte J (38:56):
We all need those little nudges and I think.
I get excited when I realizethere are nudges.
Ooh, I can go and do this, that,or, try something new.
So, you're welcome.
And oh, it's been a delighttalking to you.
I could literally talk to youall day.
I would love for you to comeback on again at a future date
(39:19):
and you can tell us more aboutyour pickleball experience this
summer.
Yeah.
But Carrie, where can peoplefind you?
Carrie (39:27):
So my website is carriesans.com, I'm on Instagram
and Facebook and it'sCarrie.sans, LMFT for licensed
Marriage and Family Therapist.
Yeah.
Charlotte J (39:41):
And we'll put all those details in the show notes
as well.
Carrie (39:44):
Sounds great.
Thanks C Charlotte for ourconversation today.
I enjoyed it.
Charlotte J (39:48):
Thank you so much, Carrie.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
I hope you enjoyed thatconversation as much as I did.
Anything mentioned, includinglinks, notes, and a full episode
list, will be over on ourwebsite at
pickleballandpartnership.
buzzsprout.
com.
Com.
(40:08):
If you got something outta thisepisode, be sure to follow or
subscribe to Pickleball andPartnership on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify, or wherever you listenso that you are notified of new
and upcoming episodes.
And if you're finding value inthis podcast, a free way to
(40:29):
support us is to leave a fivestar review, It truly means the
world to us.
This will help more peopleaccess these real conversations.
And if you haven't connectedwith myself or Neil personally,
we would love to meet you andsay hi over on our Facebook
page.
Thanks again for listening.
(40:50):
Please tune in next week foranother exciting episode of
Pickleball and partnership.
Remember, we're all learning,growing, and showing up in our
own ways.
And that's what matters most.
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