June 6, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, hosts Julie and Philippa explore how poverty affects children's ability to engage in play. They discuss the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, the definition of poverty, and the statistics concerning child poverty in the UK. They highlight the various barriers that impoverished families face, such as limited access to resources, social exclusion, and the inability to reciprocate playdates. They also share personal anecdotes that demonstrate how children and families still manage to find moments of playfulness amidst adversity. The episode ends on a hopeful note, emphasising the importance of connection and the resilience of the human spirit.
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Julie (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy.
With me, Julie,
Philippa (00:07):
and me Philippa.
And this week we're going to betalking about play and poverty
poverty has a big impact onchildren's play and as we talked
about in a previous episode,there are communities they live
in, and we just wanted to startby thinking about the rights
(00:30):
that children have.
So I don't know if listenerswill know, but there is
something called the UnitedNations convention of the Rights
of the Child, and that was in1990 and part of that is in
Article 31, which says the rightof the child to rest and leisure
and to engage in play andrecreational activities
(00:53):
appropriate to the age of thechild and to participate fully
in cultural life and arts.
We've talked about play in manyforms, but one of the things
that we wanted to think abouttoday was about how poverty can
impact on that play and also.
Then that impacts on children'sphysical, cognitive, social, and
(01:19):
emotional skills anddevelopment.
So yeah.
That's what we're gonna thinkabout today.
Poverty and play.
Julie (01:26):
In preparing for today's episode, we've had lots of, as
always, tussles disagreements,agreements and so on.
One thing that we're both fairlysure on is a sort of definition
of poverty, and of course we'rewe are speaking from the uk and
poverty here would be relativeto this country and the
(01:50):
communities that we exist in.
And poverty will have.
Although it will have the samedefinition, it will be measured
in different ways, in differentparts of the world.
So we recognize we live in afirst world country, but the
definition that we have, forinstance, from the Child Poverty
Action Group, that's acampaigning group and charity
(02:11):
within the uk.
They define poverty as whenindividuals, families.
Lack the resources to obtain thediet, the food, participate in
the activities and the livingconditions that are customary in
(02:33):
the society in which thosefamilies and individuals groups
belong.
So that your level of income,your housing situation, your
the.
The availability of food andother resources is lower than
most other people in yourlocality.
(02:55):
So in the UK the governmentmeasures poverty for a child.
So a child is said to be livingin poverty if they live in a
household where the income isbelow 60% of the national
income.
And so that, that's somethingI've really come to understand a
(03:18):
lot more in the last couple ofyears, partly through teaching
about play and therapy, butpartly just in my understanding
of the world and meeting friendsand families, is that poverty
isn't necessarily related tolack of work.
So a family or an individual orgroup could be working several
(03:40):
jobs.
But still be living in povertyso that connection between
income or wage and availabilityof work and poverty, it is not
as stark as it used to be.
If you were out of work, youwere in poverty.
If you are in work, you are notin poverty.
That's really gone and we knowabout that and in this country
(04:04):
and other developed countrieswhere.
The availability of work doesn'treduce the amount of poverty in.
Philippa (04:16):
There is a statistic that says the government
statistic that in April, 20244.5 million children, which is
31% of all children were inpoverty.
So that's one third, one thirdof children.
Yes.
(04:36):
In the uk I was just doing mathsthen.
Maths isn't my strong point orin poverty.
That's mind blowing, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Mind blowing.
Yeah.
So anything else that we'regonna talk about play, about the
impact on play?
The fact that 4.5 million justin the uk, which is a really
(04:57):
wealthy country.
Are living in poverty under thedepo.
The definite definition that youread out that don't have access
to these very basic needs.
Julie (05:11):
Yeah.
So in a class of 30 children,that would be about nine
children.
Philippa (05:17):
That's a lot of people, isn't it?
So
Julie (05:20):
teachers listening in.
Support staff in school.
As you look out over your class,the children that you are caring
for, nine out of that class,standard class of 30 would be
living in poverty, and that canbe very hidden.
You may not know that.
(05:40):
Yeah, not every child, not everyfamily will let others know
that's the situation they're in.
And so what we want to thinkabout, particularly today, is
for children who are living infamilies where they would meet
the definition of poverty, whatimpact, if any, might that have
(06:04):
on their capacity to play?
And if it is having adetrimental impact on.
Then that is also we know goingto impact their capacity to
learn their capacity, theirlanguage capacity, their social
interaction capacity.
So that's where we're going tobe today.
(06:26):
Actually, already I'm feeling,gosh, this is such a heavy
subject and yet I know alwaysthere isn't.
I suppose there's always hope,and I'm very aware.
I'm thinking today of familieswhere I know they are living in
extreme poverty and deprivationof housing, and yet their
(06:49):
capacity to play is still reallybuoyant.
And I'm curious about why somechildren living in situations of
poverty still access play andbecome very playful.
And others, it really curtailsthe capacity for play.
(07:10):
And I expect, I don't know theanswers to that.
And in years to come, when I'mwell dead and gone, people will
begin to understand why asituation such as poverty
affects some people in one wayand affects others in a
different way.
And I don't understand that justyet.
Philippa (07:28):
And I wonder if it's not just about.
I think it's just such a widetopic, isn't it?
So there's, there is the verybasic stuff of can, can we play?
Do we access play?
Is it there?
I would think about a kid whogoes to school who hasn't had
breakfast that morning becausemaybe there's no bread, there's
no milk, there's no, there's nofood for them to have breakfast.
(07:50):
Their ability to access play onthe playground is gonna be
lessened because you aretireder, your ball is hungry.
You are, you are in a verydifferent place than a kid who's
had a bowl of frosties andcroissants and, all these sorts
of things.
So there's that.
Kind of poverty.
There's the poverty of theenvironment that they're living
in, that maybe they're in, arented accommodation or social
(08:10):
housing where there's not verymuch space for them to play and
so they would, they could playand they may have playful
parents, they may have playfulsiblings, but they.
The space to play is verylimited.
So what they can play may be onscreens or, they may read a book
which is playful, but they don'thave the wide variety of play
(08:33):
that maybe somebody in adifferent accommodation,
different environment may have.
There is play, where you.
You might be able and have theskill.
So you might be at playfootball, you might play
football in the park with allyour friends, and you might be
very good at it, but then youdon't have the financial ability
(08:58):
to join the club.
But the person down the roaddoes, and their ability's the
same, but they join the club andshe then gets noticed by a
talent scout and then gets toplay in, in a football academy
or something like that.
But because you don't have thefinancial resources to do that,
you might play football, youmight do it all the time, but
(09:19):
the poverty limits youraccessibility, your.
To, to wider resources fromthat.
Does that make sense?
So you're still playing, you'restill having all that access,
but you can't join the footballclub or the, whatever it is.
Chess club, all those sorts ofthings.
Chess club was a bit like, I'mlike, who did I know that played
(09:41):
chess as a kid?
I'm sure people did, but Ididn't know anyone.
Yeah.
I was just being quitestereotypical there.
But, those, the rugby club orwhatever.
'cause you can't.
And you might be able to affordit when you are young because
you don't need a kit.
But once you get to having to doa kit or take the rotation turns
even, of washing the kit.
'cause that sometimes happens,doesn't it?
That each parent has to take aturn and washing everyone's kit,
(10:05):
but maybe you don't have awashing machine or you just
couldn't afford to, or youcouldn't dry them because it's
the middle of winter that limitsthe access.
It's not that you aren'tplaying, you are playing, but.
Poverty limits your access tothings.
Does that make sense?
Julie (10:22):
And of the access to be able to do that playfulness with
other people, because as weknow, a lot of play can happen
on our own, and many childrenand adults enjoy finding playful
things to do on our own.
But I think that's reallycrucial to think about the
social impact.
Poverty on play interactions, sonot having the financial
(10:47):
resources to get to the placewhere some social play is going
on.
So not being able to get on thebus, not being able to have a
car, put petrol in the car toget you to the place where other
children and young people mightbe doing some play but is
provided free.
(11:07):
So there are, I know aroundwhere I live, there are some
free activities that go on, butsome families don't have the
capacity to get their childthere to do it.
I happen to live in London andactually our children and young
people have free bus travel,which is amazing.
And I love the fact that up tothe age of 11, they don't even
(11:30):
need a card.
They can just walk on the busand sail on up the top, having
to do.
Philippa (11:37):
Say, Julie, the fact that you've got a boss is Yes.
For where I live I is veryluxurious.
I live in a place where there isa boss, but you cannot get
anywhere on that boss unless yougo in the middle of the day at
very specific town.
There's three, yeah, it comesthrough our village three times
and I am not very remote.
(11:58):
I am a little bit rural, but notthat far.
But you couldn't get anywhere ona bus for a certain time.
Yeah, you have to be, so busesis very luxurious from my thing.
Julie (12:09):
Absolutely.
And I appreciate that aboutliving in London.
I get really annoyed if the busis, gonna be in seven minutes, I
think.
Oh my goodness.
In London we have that hugeadvantage of being able to get
places.
But there are where you are.
You would need a car.
You would need somebody to comeand pick you up, to take you to
(12:31):
the place where the play thingmight happen.
And if your family is living inpoverty, that might not be an
option.
So there are, there could be thefees for, the club or the
membership of something.
As you say the resources thatyou need, the uniform, the kit
the art materials or whatever isneeded for that club.
(12:54):
And I know many, there are manyclubs and places that are able
to offer that for free or atreduced rates, but it puts that
child and that family always ina situation of having to ask
for, having to prove theirpoverty status by having to send
in their bank account detail ortheir, not their, statement
(13:17):
proving their universal creditstatus or whatever other
benefits they're receiving.
And I know of many families fromwhen I was teaching in a school
where they were eligible formany top-ups.
They were eligible for freeschool meals, eligible for free
places on a school trip, butdidn't want the shame of having
(13:42):
to provide all the paperworkthat proves that, didn't want to
declare that in the school,didn't want their child in any
way to feel.
The effects of poverty.
Now, that was 10 years ago.
I left that school and I'mwondering now if, because of the
crisis that we are in nowfinancially, is, I wonder if
(14:04):
that attitude has had to changefor many families where they
have to let people know we donot have enough and we do need
help.
Often the child is with theparent when those conversations
are happening at the schoolgate, or in going to the food
bank or in going to the swimmingpool to ask, have you got any
(14:27):
subsidized places?
And for the child to constantlybe aware of that, where does
that put that child's sense ofself?
Their parents noticing thevulnerability of their parents?
Philippa (14:41):
I think all, I think also on, on top of that, what we
should say, I think you, youtalked about it at the
beginning, this is often notparents who are not willing to
work.
There, there will be some peoplewho, you know.
For very legitimate reasons needto be, an income benefits to
(15:01):
support them.
But there are also of this fourand a half million people,
children, families that areworking and they're working two
or three jobs to, to providetheir rent and their food and
things like that.
And then at those times theycan't afford childcare.
So what happens to the children?
(15:22):
O often or at times, olderchildren will then be tasked of
looking after young children,won't they?
Because a parent legitimatelyhas to go to work in order to
work so that they can live andthey can have food.
But then if you are 13 and youare looking after your.
Two younger siblings.
Again, your play opportunitiesare significantly reduced,
(15:44):
aren't they?
'cause you can't go out withyour mates because you now have
to look after your siblings.
And that interaction, whilstthey may be very lovely 13 year
olds, they're not parents,they're not adults.
So those younger ones are alsolosing something.
They may be gaining things aswell, a close relationship but a
13-year-old.
(16:04):
Yes, can babysit.
Of course they can.
And watch your kids while you goto the shop for a little bit of
time.
But I guess their role in ourculture isn't about caring for
younger children, theirsiblings.
On a very regular basis forlonger periods of time.
(16:26):
But and I'm guessing for parentsthat's probably not what they
want their children to be doing,but they often don't have that
choice because it's a choicebetween, eating and you having
to rely on children, to support.
You in order to go to work ornot.
(16:48):
And those are really difficultchoices, I think.
Julie (16:51):
But I think that Philippa, we've talked a lot in
these episodes about do you needan adult?
In order for a child to be ableto play.
And I think you and I would say,no, not always, and you and I
growing up didn't have an adultwho played with us.
Might have played a board gameevery now in game and again with
(17:12):
us, but primarily, if I thinkabout my play experience as a
child, it was with siblings orvisiting another friend.
Philippa (17:21):
Yeah.
But I suppose.
Your siblings weren't thenresponsible for feeding you, for
putting you to bed to do.
You know what I mean?
It changes that dynamic I think.
It's not about that siblingsaren't there to play.
Yes, of course.
But when you are 13 andresponsible.
For your brother, your sister,or your other siblings, there's
(17:42):
a very different relationshipthen, and you're not there to
just play with them andentertain them.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's what I'm talking about,the, as an adult, we have the
capacity.
Hopefully to be able to cookdinner and watch our 4-year-old
draw and make comments around.
Yes.
(18:02):
But when you are 13 you justphysically and neurologically
don't have that capacity becauseyou aren't developed.
So yeah, it's not about siblingsplaying.
It's about.
Being in that role of an adultreally in, yes, I see that for
prolonged periods of time.
Again, yeah.
This is not, for a Saturdayafternoon or this is prolonged
(18:22):
periods where your parent is outbecause they have to go out,
they have to go to work.
This is not about being Iabsolutely say that this is what
families.
It ha have to do that.
There is no choice for them.
In some circumstances.
Julie (18:41):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking about asituation where a child, and so
I'm thinking about my ownexperiences, but also I know a
lot of experiences of otherchildren who have this
availability.
To be able to visit a friend andhave what is now called a play
(19:02):
date.
I don't think I ever called itthat as a child, but I just went
to Magda's house and we playedand that was very reciprocal.
I would visit one of my friendsup the road for a few hours and
another night in the week shecome, might come down and visit
me and we lived in identicalhouses.
The, these houses there weresort of seven or eight in a row.
(19:23):
They were all absolutelyidentical.
On the outside, but of courseinside very different.
I played at hers, she played atmine, and that was a lot of my
play development, I think up anddown the street playing at other
other friends' houses.
But if you are living in asituation of poverty, sorry, I'm
(19:44):
just, I'm I.
You'll have to cut this out, butI'm just laughing.
There's a little girl at my gatejust playing with my gate and
making it open and closing.
She's just having a lovely time.
But yeah, the capacity, when youare living in very small
accommodation or accommodation,that's not stable accommodation.
(20:05):
That's temporary accommodationthat is moldy.
That is badly ventilated, thatis poorly decorated, that is
damp.
Your capacity to reciprocatewith a play date is completely
shut down.
You are living in a hotel asyour family.
I'm connected with, have beendoing for 10 weeks, three
(20:28):
teenagers, mom and dad in ahotel room for 10 weeks.
And so they cannot go and visita friend in their house.
They haven't wanted to.
They've wanted to be able to getback to the hotel before dark,
and they've never been able,they're not allowed to have
(20:48):
other children come and visitand they can have adults come
and visit.
But in this hotel, you can'thave children come and visit who
are not living there, and yetcorridor.
It is full of children.
Every door is open and there arechildren in every room in this
hotel.
And these this is not asylumseekers or refugees.
(21:11):
This is British citizens livingin the country who the council
isn't able to find themaccommodation at the moment.
So that reciprocal peerrelationship that can go on with
developing play is really shutdown for many, but not all many
families that live in povertybecause you can't reciprocate
(21:34):
that visiting.
And I think that applies topart, parties, a party might be
in the house.
I think more often now a child'sbirthday party is at a place, at
an event, at a swimming pool, ata climbing wall, at a going out.
And this is an expensive thingto do, but if you are living in
(21:57):
poverty and your child isinvited to that, do you say yes
or no?
One, you've got to get yourchild there.
There might be an expectation ofa present.
There might be the expectationof a card.
Do you, what do you do with yourother children while you wait
around for that child?
You might need to contributetowards the cost of it, but then
(22:20):
when it's your child's birthday.
Have you got the two or 300pound that it might be to have
eight of your child's friendsback?
And so does your child politelysay, no, thank you.
We're already busy that weekendto every party.
And over time, does that thenshut down that child's, social
(22:43):
interaction within the class orwithin the social group?
Because they're not able toreciprocate.
And I see that happening overand over again in school.
And I know something that'shappened in some schools is
they've the school staff havemade not a rule, but an
expectation that every child isinvited to every party.
(23:07):
With the resources of manychildren, if we think nine out
of 30 children are living inpoverty, they can't invite 30
children to their birthdayparty.
Absolutely.
And I, yeah I do disagree withschools that make that
expectation.
I think it comes with, a lack ofunderstanding of the situations.
(23:30):
Many families are living in.
Philippa (23:32):
Absolutely.
It reminds me, I was justthinking about choices and how
we make choices.
And it reminds me, I was inManchester not long ago and I
was Manchester got quite.
Big homeless community.
I think partly because AndyBurnham there has really been
(23:53):
supportive of ho of the homelesscommunity and trying to find at
least sleeping accommodation andthings like that.
So it, I, this would be myuneducated view.
But then that's encouragedpeople to go because actually
there is more resources forhomeless.
People within there.
Within there.
So I was in Manchester and I wason my way back and I was just
(24:16):
gonna get a drink out ofSainsbury's in Manchester,
Piccadilly, which is the bigrailway station there.
And there was a young lad, hewas about 20, maybe I would say
he was younger than my child.
So 19, 20, I would've said.
Loitering outside Sainsbury'sand these two security guards
were watching him and he justsaid to me, excuse me, could you
(24:38):
buy me a pack of sweets?
I was like a pack of sweets.
What do you want me sweetss for?
He said, oh, I just, I want somesweets.
The sugar helps me.
So I was like, come on let's goin and we'll get a meal deal.
And some crisps.
And some sweetss and whateveryou need.
And this, I could see thissecurity guard, thankfully being
kind, following us around as we.
(25:00):
Find his meal deal and hischocolate and he is, and his
sweets and what, whatever it ishe is buying.
But I am saying, I'm talking tohim and he was saying, yeah.
Kay.
I was in foster care and infoster care all my life.
It was from Scotland, he said,and I had a relationship with a
girl and.
W she was from here, so I moveddown here and then that's ended
and now I don't have anywhere tolive.
(25:22):
And he said, I've got 11 pound,11 pound.
And he showed me this 11 poundin his hand.
He said I need 15 pound to beable to buy somewhere to sleep.
He said, so I can't buy any foodbecause I need 15 pound to
sleep.
And that was really his choice.
(25:42):
And he'd been in.
In the care of.
The corporate parents for mostof his life and his day, he was
a young, he was a young man.
I would say, like I say, 1920,who should be with his mates
doing stuff, having a career,and he was having to choose.
Between, did he eat that day ordid he sleep somewhere safe at
(26:06):
night And he still had fourpound to get to be able to have
somewhere to sleep.
And this was kind of seveno'clock at night.
I actually didn't have any cashotherwise I would've given him
the four quid.
But I did buy him his food so atleast he could eat.
But he still had to ask otherstrangers for four pound and his
choice was, where do I sleep?
Or can I eat?
(26:28):
Where is play in that?
Where do you find play withinthose?
That, that, that choice thatyour whole life your whole day
is about finding resources forthose two very basic needs.
One being safe.
(26:49):
Yeah, eating and that was reallywhat his choice was.
Julie (26:53):
And that's making me think of, Maslow's hierarchy of
needs triangle, which, manylisteners will know about.
And at the very bottom of thattriangle is the physical needs
for food, water, shelter.
The physical things that aregoing to keep us alive, the
things that are gonna keep ussafe.
(27:14):
Alive and it's much higher upthat triangle that the sort of
psychological needs, therelational needs can be thought
about.
And so for many families and notall families, and of course
this, there's a big spectrum ofpoverty, even within that 30%
for a number of families livingin poverty, their day is like
(27:37):
that young man that you met.
It's about has everyone gotsomewhere to sleep?
And I don't mean a bed at thisbottom of the hierarchy of
needs.
It's have we got a room?
Have we got four walls toshelter?
Is there food?
Is there water?
And then the next stage isthinking about is there a place
(27:58):
for everybody, a bed or amattress or a corner for
everybody within this space?
Have we got facilities to cook?
Have we got facilities to washand keep clean?
They would be on the next rug.
The energy and time that ittakes to just manage all those
physiological and safety needsmeans capacity or the
(28:20):
availability of the parent andthe capacity for the child to
even think about play is reallyreduced.
Although we all know and youwill know of families and
children who somehow, and I findthis, hugely admirable and
amazing and I don't understandhow playfulness can still be
(28:43):
built into that looking for thephysiological needs.
I'm thinking about a sort of, Isuppose he was about eight or
nine when I worked with thischild in a school.
He was a twin and can't rememberhis name, but I'll call him
Maurice.
(29:03):
I often use Maurice.
I like that name.
And Maurice was referred to mefor play therapy not his twin
brother, interestingly, and.
I knew this family were livingin poverty.
I knew they were living insmall, cramped accommodation,
(29:24):
and I had a beautiful playroom,and I set out my playroom as I
would for every child.
With, resources, cars, artmaterials nurture area, a sand
tray, a water tray.
And I'd recently got a new dollshouse.
It was one of those dolls housesthat folds up and has a handle
(29:48):
and you clip it together.
It's like a little suitcase.
And I'd inherited it from a playtherapist who had recently
retired.
She had given me some of herkit.
And I was so delighted to havethis little house, and Morris
came in.
I didn't know him, I hadn't methim before.
He came with his ta, histeaching assistant who sat
(30:11):
outside and Morris came in andhe was fuming.
He was so angry with me.
That I had provided what Ithought of as a beautiful room
with all these wonderfulresources, and here I was as the
play therapists going to helphim with all his angry feelings.
(30:33):
And here we go.
Maurice.
This is the time for you to sayand do just about anything you
like and I'll let you know ifthere's something you may not
do.
I did my normal spiel, sat down.
And I'll never forget, and Ihave no idea how he had the
strength to do this.
He opened this dolls house andstamped on it and put his foot
(30:58):
right through this very hardplastic, and then just kicked it
around the room before I had, Ijust didn't have the chance even
to call anybody or to say, oh,no.
I I just was in such shock thatthe power of this eight,
9-year-old boy's foot had beenable to smash through this
(31:19):
house, and he ran out and the TAwent and found him and
eventually, he was very brave.
He did come back in.
He was absolutely distraughtthat he had destroyed this and
he thought he was gonna be in somuch trouble.
And what he was able to say tome, and I think, what a brave
(31:40):
boy and thank you, Maurice,wherever you are now for
teaching me this.
He said, you showed me a roomwith all this amazing, wonderful
stuff in it.
And what you don't know is thatyesterday we moved into a hostel
and me and all my brothers andmy mom and my dad and my brother
(32:00):
are living in one room.
And we don't have any toys.
And then you've got thisbeautiful doll's house and I'll
never have a house like that.
And so he needed to destroy it.
And it's really made me thinkabout, as a play therapist, what
(32:21):
it is like for a child living indeprivation to come into a room
that is often very.
Very resourced and what thatsays to them.
And does that hamper theirtherapy?
Does it hamper thatrelationship?
(32:42):
And actually what I went on todo with Maurice is not have so
much stuff.
In fact, it's really changed mypractice.
I have a lot of stuff now inbags and in boxes, so it's not
all out there on display.
And I got to know the kitchenstaff at that school, and every
Wednesday they would save allthe boxes for me, the egg boxes,
(33:07):
the cartons, and there would bea big pile of these for Maurice
to stamp on and for Maurice andI to stamp on, he needed to be
joined in that huge anger he hadfor his situation.
And it does make me think about.
Over providing something for achild that might cause them more
(33:31):
distress and teasing that outwith the child.
'cause I also don't want to thendeprive them of something in the
therapy room.
But I was so pleased with myselffor this beautiful room in this
beautiful dolls house.
But actually for him, it said,you've not taken me into
account.
(33:51):
You don't know my life.
So thank you to Maurice and manyof the children who've helped me
think about that, and I'm sureI'm often still making lots of
mistakes with that.
Philippa (34:02):
It makes me think about the opposite, really.
So when I was doing my training,I worked in Luton again, it was
homelessness with teens who, andso it was a, an overnight stay.
You had to be referred from thehousing department to, to, to
where I was.
(34:22):
So it was a placement that Istayed.
And worked through the summer.
So I was paid work through thesummer and so these kids were 16
to 22, I think, something likethat.
And so they had to be referred.
It was three three beded, andyou'd get, get this list of
names of, and they would comewith this little printout that
(34:45):
they'd held up at a camera soyou could see who it was and and
then they would be allowed intothis little room where you
provided them with very basicfoods and a washing machine so
they could wash their clothes,and then they'd get a bed
overnight.
There was four beds, I think.
And.
And a room for us sleeping in.
When I think back now, I think,oh my God.
Do you know what I mean?
I was in this room.
(35:05):
But anyway'cause I was only inmy early twenties at the time.
I wasn't really very much olderthan the kids that were coming
in the door.
However, it was, look it was anice thing.
And I guess what.
What I was thinking about whenyou were playing, talking about
over providing was that theseyoung people used to come into
this overnight accommodation.
Like I said, they were allowedtwo or three nights so they
(35:27):
could leave the things there andit allowed them to then go and,
go and see if they could sortbenefits without having to take
everything with them.
Or, they could use the phone if.
They could, if you felt it wassafe to come through the other
side of the door, but they wouldoften play in there because
there was very limited stuff inthere because sometimes people
(35:49):
would get angry or they wouldtake things so there wasn't a
lot of things.
But so that there was not thetemptation to take it with them
or whatever it is, but theystill found ways to play and
often word games or ARDS orthings like that, that they
connected and sometimes theyknew one another and they'd gone
(36:10):
together and a couple of themhad got, sometimes there were
four strangers and me in there,but there was still.
Away, I think that they found toconnect, because you had to be
in the place by, I think it waseight 30, so that people
couldn't co turn up withalcohol.
The idea was, but of course, ifyou've got nothing to do all day
(36:31):
and that wasn't always the casebut they did come and yeah, you
would then have a couple ofhours before, before everybody
slowly drifted off to bed.
And people would be going andhaving showers and cooking a bit
of food for themselves orwhatever, but generally there
was a general area and yeah,they found ways I'd forgotten
about that.
(36:52):
It was a really nice summerwork, really, but they would be
playful with one another.
Sometimes it was like taking theMickey outta one another, but in
a really kind of playful way inthese, young people.
Yeah, they had got two nightsaccommodation and they didn't
know where they were gonna sleepafter two nights or if they'd
get any more.
Some of them were able, we wereable to find more permanent
(37:14):
accommodation.
Some of them they weren't, butthey could still find moments of
connection through play.
And that's what I think it was.
It was connecting with the otherpeople in that place, in that
same situation throughplayfulness.
And sometimes, we'd find a packof cards and have a game of
cards or, yeah.
(37:35):
So that was, those were reallynice.
And those are, really hard timesfor those young people, but they
still found playfulness withinthat.
Julie (37:47):
That's where the hope is.
And I'm going back to thinkingabout that Maslow's Triangle.
Which is quite stark in a sense.
I think it's got sort of fivelevels to it, and you move from
one to the other and play it.
Although it's not mentioned inthat, that triangle would be up
towards the top, the middle andtop end.
(38:07):
But what you are saying there isthat capacity for humans.
Those young people you wereworking with to bring
playfulness even into thatsituation at the very bottom of
Maslow's Triangle of gettingyour basic needs met.
But can that also be done withsome playfulness, word play,
(38:29):
mucking around together and it'smaking me think about charities
and government services andservices.
That are really looking after orat least looking out for those
physiological needs, those thensafety needs.
Whether there's capacity tobuild in some playfulness, not
(38:55):
just for the children, but toadd in even that sort of playful
connection while you're fillingin a benefits form while you're
filling in a.
Yet another form to move fromtemporary to permanent
accommodation if there can bethat respectful lightness and
(39:17):
playfulness.
Even within those interactions,if you go to the town hall here
and our town hall in Lambeth is,on the main street and every, it
has got a big glass window andeverybody can see everybody
who's waiting in the housingdepartment.
It's a really public space andit's right next to a bus stop,
which it is great to get to, butit means it's very public when
(39:42):
you are asking for accommodationin lamb.
And I look at the children andyoung people who are with their
families and their suitcasesoften in, in that building,
waiting to get their ticket andwaiting to go forward to a desk.
There's no play area.
There's no, as you say, pack ofcards.
(40:02):
There's no lightness on the,there's nothing that soft that.
I'm just thinking about thestarkness of that and yet that
capacity for many humans,children and adults and elders
to be able to do a littleplayful thing, even in the most
(40:23):
dire circumstances.
Philippa (40:26):
And I wonder how people's experience changes how
our body and nervous systemchanges with.
Just a change of environment tobe more playful.
So I've this week I've done a,an interview with a guy named
Joe Franks.
It'll be out in the middle of ofAugust, about.
(40:49):
Play and the justice system.
And one of the things that hewas talking about is very
recently they've started incustody suites.
So when people are arrested todesignate a child.
Sal Really?
He didn't call it a sal, hecalled it some something a bit
softer than that, but reallyit's a sal, isn't it?
(41:11):
Where somebody's being held witha door and they can't get out.
But what he was saying was,instead of having that very
plain.
Paint that's in there.
I don't think I've been in acell really, but that there's
more colorful and there's morelike murals on the wall and
there's some fidget toys andsome balls, and the recognition
(41:32):
that maybe younger children or,younger teenagers might need
something a little bit differentin order to make the experience
more bearable, less frightening.
We know.
But I wonder if, we did that foreverybody.
(41:53):
And that's not about saying thatwhen you go to prison, you
should have this really nicetime or when you're held in
custody because you've, you'vecommitted an offense or possibly
committed offense.
That, that we should, that itshould be all.
Sweetness and lights and fairydust and or whatever it is.
But I just wonder about if therewas just a way of connecting,
(42:15):
what difference would that make?
Do you know what I mean?
Rather than this disconnectionthat these things.
Create.
So the people standing in linewith a suitcase where there's
nothing soft around them, it'svery disconnecting from the
world and from what you aredoing, isn't it?
You've got to be insular andit's quite fearful.
(42:37):
And then, our body is in thatfear response.
And so then we're in the fight,flight, freeze stuff.
And again, if you are locked ina cell or something like that,
it.
You are invoking this fear, andI guess that's what it's
designed for, to make peoplescared so they don't want to
come back, but we completelyknow it's not working.
(42:57):
So I wonder if we triedconnection, what would that be
about?
And I'm not saying that we paintDisney, in people's cells or
stuff like that, but justsomething that kind of says,
we'll connect with you.
We don't like what you did, andwe, there's gonna, there's
gonna, I guess what we've talkedabout before and there might be
(43:20):
a consequence for that.
And there, there might be otherthings for that.
But actually, fundamentally, youare a human being and as another
human being I want to connectwith you.
Julie (43:33):
Yeah.
And thinking.
UN convention on the rights ofthe child.
The right to relax, play andtake part in cultural and
artistic activities.
That is the right for everychild.
And the definition is under 18.
At 18 and under for the UNConvention.
(43:54):
I.
That's, that right exists.
Whether you are in custody,whether you are in poverty,
whether you are living in apalace, whether you are living
in a beautiful apartmentoverlooking a river, whether you
are in school, whether you arein an afterschool club, whether
you are in the queue waiting forhousing that right to relax.
(44:18):
And I think I'm reallyinterested that they use that
word first to relax.
Play, I know you're talkingabout the sensory system, that
capacity to exhale and reduceyour regulation.
Come down from hyper intosomething that could be
(44:41):
relational.
And I just see so missed manymissed opportunities to just
have.
A playful interaction withsomebody in a waiting room, to,
to play peek boo with a child inthe waiting room at the gps or
(45:02):
in the food bank queue and I seewonderful people who both are in
the queue or other servers inthe queue who are able to just
engage everybody or a littleone.
In a bit of peekaboo or making alittle paper doll out a piece of
paper and just keepingconnection through play, even
(45:27):
though something really prettyawful is going on.
But for the child to havethemselves regulated by the
adults around them.
And I so often see this, and Iknow I do this myself on the
many buses that I get to go onPhilippa and I appreciate the
poverty of public transportwhere you are.
I'm forever on buses and trains,and I'm one of those people that
(45:53):
does interact with other peopleon the train and on the bus and
get conversations going.
And if there's a child or a pet,I'll often be quite playful with
them and I can see the relief.
The parent's face thatsomebody's liking their child.
Somebody's just lifting them for10 minutes, not physically
(46:15):
lifting them, but lifting theatmosphere.
Because often a parent and achild has got into a real tussle
and they're sitting thereseething each other on the train
or the bus, and I'll sometimesjust say, oh gosh, mom, that's a
really tough day.
You are both having, yeah.
And then the little one willlook up.
And then just playing something,you know in this, the mist on
(46:37):
the window or just beinginterested in their new trainers
that they've got or noticingtheir hair or something playful
about the child.
And I can see just the lightnessthat often comes then to the
parents if somebody else hasnoticed us.
And noticed us in a good way.
(46:57):
Yeah, I'm having a tough timeand I was shouting at my kid 10
minutes ago and it was all a bitawful because, I don't know
where I'm gonna get foodtonight, but just being another
person around that family, andI'll never see them again, but
just for that five or 10 minutessaying, I recognize you're in a
(47:17):
tough place.
Isn't your child just beautiful?
And noticing that with them.
And then you can see the gentlerway that they get off the bus
with their child.
And just because they've beenrecognized as somebody who's,
suffering or in pain or having atough day.
(47:38):
And I haven't rolled my eyes.
I haven't totted I've just triedto be with them in it.
Gently, and not everybodyaccepts that or wants that, but
just adding that playfulness inbecause I never know what
situation anybody is in, whatsort of tough day they're having
(47:58):
and somebody just offering thatkindness, I think can lift the
situation and make things a bitmore hopeful.
Philippa (48:05):
And I think it's that connection, isn't it?
I think this is probably a goodplace to start.
Start is that poverty definitelyhas an impact.
It has an impact on everything,on your day to day being on your
access to things, even on yourpotential.
You may.
(48:25):
Have the potential to be thebest footballer in, in, in the
UK or in a club.
But if you can't.
Access the club.
If you can't get spotted becauseyou don't have the money to
attend, it's gonna affect yourwhole life.
It, if, if you can't afford thefood to feed your child
(48:46):
breakfast, it is going to, thereis absolutely no doubt it is
going to impact their day atschool.
There is no doubt that povertyhas massive implications for
everybody living in it.
Some people have differentresiliences, different
(49:06):
structures, different supportsand it doesn't affect everybody
in the same way.
We, and I just think in a worldand in a time where there is so
much abundance, nobody should bein poverty.
And that's a whole politicalthing that we, this podcast is
not about.
But I guess to sum it up in a,in the positive is that even in
(49:31):
those moments, we can findconnection.
And play can offer thatconnection, whether it's with
the child on the boss, whereplay peekaboo or you stick your
tongue out or you just smile atthem.
So that they know that you haveseen them.
And like you say, you areinterested in to the young.
People who are homeless, whoplayed word games in a pack of
(49:53):
cards, or the kids who play,find a can and play kick the can
in the park or whatever it is.
There is connection available.
We need to do a whole lot more.
And we need to, in my view, theworld needs to just be softer
and play can help us be softerand kinder, but we can do it and
(50:14):
you can.
See it and we've bothexperienced it which gives us
that hope.
I think that we can togethermake a kinda more playful, more
connected world.
Julie (50:30):
Yeah.
And Philippa, thank you forsumming that up.
And what I'm really aware ofhaving had this conversation is.
How much my clients, my friends,people in my area, people I've
got to know through my work whoare experiencing or have
experienced poverty, how muchthey have shown me and taught me
(50:53):
about playfulness still existingin their lives, that they have
not disappeared as people.
Because they are living inpoverty.
They have not disappeared asplayful people because they're
living in poverty.
And I have had some of my bestnights or best social events
(51:15):
with a family I'm thinking ofwho are living in deep poverty,
but love a game of Ludo.
And I have never played suchcompetitive ludo as I have.
A hotel room with a familywho've been living in that hotel
room for many weeks and months.
But my goodness, on that hotelbed, could they play a great
(51:38):
game of voodoo?
And I have never laughed as muchas I did that night, and I'm
very grateful to that family andother families in my life who
teach me that you don't needmoney and a great number of
resources to be able to play andstill connect.
Philippa (51:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a great way to end.
So thank you for listening tothis episode of Pondering Play
and Therapy.
Hit the like button subscribe,and we'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
Welcome to this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy.
With me, Julie,
Philippa (00:07):
and me Philippa.
And this week we're going to betalking about play and poverty
poverty has a big impact onchildren's play and as we talked
about in a previous episode,there are communities they live
in, and we just wanted to startby thinking about the rights
(00:30):
that children have.
So I don't know if listenerswill know, but there is
something called the UnitedNations convention of the Rights
of the Child, and that was in1990 and part of that is in
Article 31, which says the rightof the child to rest and leisure
and to engage in play andrecreational activities
(00:53):
appropriate to the age of thechild and to participate fully
in cultural life and arts.
We've talked about play in manyforms, but one of the things
that we wanted to think abouttoday was about how poverty can
impact on that play and also.
Then that impacts on children'sphysical, cognitive, social, and
(01:19):
emotional skills anddevelopment.
So yeah.
That's what we're gonna thinkabout today.
Poverty and play.
Julie (01:26):
In preparing for today's episode, we've had lots of, as
always, tussles disagreements,agreements and so on.
One thing that we're both fairlysure on is a sort of definition
of poverty, and of course we'rewe are speaking from the uk and
poverty here would be relativeto this country and the
(01:50):
communities that we exist in.
And poverty will have.
Although it will have the samedefinition, it will be measured
in different ways, in differentparts of the world.
So we recognize we live in afirst world country, but the
definition that we have, forinstance, from the Child Poverty
Action Group, that's acampaigning group and charity
(02:11):
within the uk.
They define poverty as whenindividuals, families.
Lack the resources to obtain thediet, the food, participate in
the activities and the livingconditions that are customary in
(02:33):
the society in which thosefamilies and individuals groups
belong.
So that your level of income,your housing situation, your
the.
The availability of food andother resources is lower than
most other people in yourlocality.
(02:55):
So in the UK the governmentmeasures poverty for a child.
So a child is said to be livingin poverty if they live in a
household where the income isbelow 60% of the national
income.
And so that, that's somethingI've really come to understand a
(03:18):
lot more in the last couple ofyears, partly through teaching
about play and therapy, butpartly just in my understanding
of the world and meeting friendsand families, is that poverty
isn't necessarily related tolack of work.
So a family or an individual orgroup could be working several
(03:40):
jobs.
But still be living in povertyso that connection between
income or wage and availabilityof work and poverty, it is not
as stark as it used to be.
If you were out of work, youwere in poverty.
If you are in work, you are notin poverty.
That's really gone and we knowabout that and in this country
(04:04):
and other developed countrieswhere.
The availability of work doesn'treduce the amount of poverty in.
Philippa (04:16):
There is a statistic that says the government
statistic that in April, 20244.5 million children, which is
31% of all children were inpoverty.
So that's one third, one thirdof children.
Yes.
(04:36):
In the uk I was just doing mathsthen.
Maths isn't my strong point orin poverty.
That's mind blowing, isn't it?
Absolutely.
Mind blowing.
Yeah.
So anything else that we'regonna talk about play, about the
impact on play?
The fact that 4.5 million justin the uk, which is a really
(04:57):
wealthy country.
Are living in poverty under thedepo.
The definite definition that youread out that don't have access
to these very basic needs.
Julie (05:11):
Yeah.
So in a class of 30 children,that would be about nine
children.
Philippa (05:17):
That's a lot of people, isn't it?
So
Julie (05:20):
teachers listening in.
Support staff in school.
As you look out over your class,the children that you are caring
for, nine out of that class,standard class of 30 would be
living in poverty, and that canbe very hidden.
You may not know that.
(05:40):
Yeah, not every child, not everyfamily will let others know
that's the situation they're in.
And so what we want to thinkabout, particularly today, is
for children who are living infamilies where they would meet
the definition of poverty, whatimpact, if any, might that have
(06:04):
on their capacity to play?
And if it is having adetrimental impact on.
Then that is also we know goingto impact their capacity to
learn their capacity, theirlanguage capacity, their social
interaction capacity.
So that's where we're going tobe today.
(06:26):
Actually, already I'm feeling,gosh, this is such a heavy
subject and yet I know alwaysthere isn't.
I suppose there's always hope,and I'm very aware.
I'm thinking today of familieswhere I know they are living in
extreme poverty and deprivationof housing, and yet their
(06:49):
capacity to play is still reallybuoyant.
And I'm curious about why somechildren living in situations of
poverty still access play andbecome very playful.
And others, it really curtailsthe capacity for play.
(07:10):
And I expect, I don't know theanswers to that.
And in years to come, when I'mwell dead and gone, people will
begin to understand why asituation such as poverty
affects some people in one wayand affects others in a
different way.
And I don't understand that justyet.
Philippa (07:28):
And I wonder if it's not just about.
I think it's just such a widetopic, isn't it?
So there's, there is the verybasic stuff of can, can we play?
Do we access play?
Is it there?
I would think about a kid whogoes to school who hasn't had
breakfast that morning becausemaybe there's no bread, there's
no milk, there's no, there's nofood for them to have breakfast.
(07:50):
Their ability to access play onthe playground is gonna be
lessened because you aretireder, your ball is hungry.
You are, you are in a verydifferent place than a kid who's
had a bowl of frosties andcroissants and, all these sorts
of things.
So there's that.
Kind of poverty.
There's the poverty of theenvironment that they're living
in, that maybe they're in, arented accommodation or social
(08:10):
housing where there's not verymuch space for them to play and
so they would, they could playand they may have playful
parents, they may have playfulsiblings, but they.
The space to play is verylimited.
So what they can play may be onscreens or, they may read a book
which is playful, but they don'thave the wide variety of play
(08:33):
that maybe somebody in adifferent accommodation,
different environment may have.
There is play, where you.
You might be able and have theskill.
So you might be at playfootball, you might play
football in the park with allyour friends, and you might be
very good at it, but then youdon't have the financial ability
(08:58):
to join the club.
But the person down the roaddoes, and their ability's the
same, but they join the club andshe then gets noticed by a
talent scout and then gets toplay in, in a football academy
or something like that.
But because you don't have thefinancial resources to do that,
you might play football, youmight do it all the time, but
(09:19):
the poverty limits youraccessibility, your.
To, to wider resources fromthat.
Does that make sense?
So you're still playing, you'restill having all that access,
but you can't join the footballclub or the, whatever it is.
Chess club, all those sorts ofthings.
Chess club was a bit like, I'mlike, who did I know that played
(09:41):
chess as a kid?
I'm sure people did, but Ididn't know anyone.
Yeah.
I was just being quitestereotypical there.
But, those, the rugby club orwhatever.
'cause you can't.
And you might be able to affordit when you are young because
you don't need a kit.
But once you get to having to doa kit or take the rotation turns
even, of washing the kit.
'cause that sometimes happens,doesn't it?
That each parent has to take aturn and washing everyone's kit,
(10:05):
but maybe you don't have awashing machine or you just
couldn't afford to, or youcouldn't dry them because it's
the middle of winter that limitsthe access.
It's not that you aren'tplaying, you are playing, but.
Poverty limits your access tothings.
Does that make sense?
Julie (10:22):
And of the access to be able to do that playfulness with
other people, because as weknow, a lot of play can happen
on our own, and many childrenand adults enjoy finding playful
things to do on our own.
But I think that's reallycrucial to think about the
social impact.
Poverty on play interactions, sonot having the financial
(10:47):
resources to get to the placewhere some social play is going
on.
So not being able to get on thebus, not being able to have a
car, put petrol in the car toget you to the place where other
children and young people mightbe doing some play but is
provided free.
(11:07):
So there are, I know aroundwhere I live, there are some
free activities that go on, butsome families don't have the
capacity to get their childthere to do it.
I happen to live in London andactually our children and young
people have free bus travel,which is amazing.
And I love the fact that up tothe age of 11, they don't even
(11:30):
need a card.
They can just walk on the busand sail on up the top, having
to do.
Philippa (11:37):
Say, Julie, the fact that you've got a boss is Yes.
For where I live I is veryluxurious.
I live in a place where there isa boss, but you cannot get
anywhere on that boss unless yougo in the middle of the day at
very specific town.
There's three, yeah, it comesthrough our village three times
and I am not very remote.
(11:58):
I am a little bit rural, but notthat far.
But you couldn't get anywhere ona bus for a certain time.
Yeah, you have to be, so busesis very luxurious from my thing.
Julie (12:09):
Absolutely.
And I appreciate that aboutliving in London.
I get really annoyed if the busis, gonna be in seven minutes, I
think.
Oh my goodness.
In London we have that hugeadvantage of being able to get
places.
But there are where you are.
You would need a car.
You would need somebody to comeand pick you up, to take you to
(12:31):
the place where the play thingmight happen.
And if your family is living inpoverty, that might not be an
option.
So there are, there could be thefees for, the club or the
membership of something.
As you say the resources thatyou need, the uniform, the kit
the art materials or whatever isneeded for that club.
(12:54):
And I know many, there are manyclubs and places that are able
to offer that for free or atreduced rates, but it puts that
child and that family always ina situation of having to ask
for, having to prove theirpoverty status by having to send
in their bank account detail ortheir, not their, statement
(13:17):
proving their universal creditstatus or whatever other
benefits they're receiving.
And I know of many families fromwhen I was teaching in a school
where they were eligible formany top-ups.
They were eligible for freeschool meals, eligible for free
places on a school trip, butdidn't want the shame of having
(13:42):
to provide all the paperworkthat proves that, didn't want to
declare that in the school,didn't want their child in any
way to feel.
The effects of poverty.
Now, that was 10 years ago.
I left that school and I'mwondering now if, because of the
crisis that we are in nowfinancially, is, I wonder if
(14:04):
that attitude has had to changefor many families where they
have to let people know we donot have enough and we do need
help.
Often the child is with theparent when those conversations
are happening at the schoolgate, or in going to the food
bank or in going to the swimmingpool to ask, have you got any
(14:27):
subsidized places?
And for the child to constantlybe aware of that, where does
that put that child's sense ofself?
Their parents noticing thevulnerability of their parents?
Philippa (14:41):
I think all, I think also on, on top of that, what we
should say, I think you, youtalked about it at the
beginning, this is often notparents who are not willing to
work.
There, there will be some peoplewho, you know.
For very legitimate reasons needto be, an income benefits to
(15:01):
support them.
But there are also of this fourand a half million people,
children, families that areworking and they're working two
or three jobs to, to providetheir rent and their food and
things like that.
And then at those times theycan't afford childcare.
So what happens to the children?
(15:22):
O often or at times, olderchildren will then be tasked of
looking after young children,won't they?
Because a parent legitimatelyhas to go to work in order to
work so that they can live andthey can have food.
But then if you are 13 and youare looking after your.
Two younger siblings.
Again, your play opportunitiesare significantly reduced,
(15:44):
aren't they?
'cause you can't go out withyour mates because you now have
to look after your siblings.
And that interaction, whilstthey may be very lovely 13 year
olds, they're not parents,they're not adults.
So those younger ones are alsolosing something.
They may be gaining things aswell, a close relationship but a
13-year-old.
(16:04):
Yes, can babysit.
Of course they can.
And watch your kids while you goto the shop for a little bit of
time.
But I guess their role in ourculture isn't about caring for
younger children, theirsiblings.
On a very regular basis forlonger periods of time.
(16:26):
But and I'm guessing for parentsthat's probably not what they
want their children to be doing,but they often don't have that
choice because it's a choicebetween, eating and you having
to rely on children, to support.
You in order to go to work ornot.
(16:48):
And those are really difficultchoices, I think.
Julie (16:51):
But I think that Philippa, we've talked a lot in
these episodes about do you needan adult?
In order for a child to be ableto play.
And I think you and I would say,no, not always, and you and I
growing up didn't have an adultwho played with us.
Might have played a board gameevery now in game and again with
(17:12):
us, but primarily, if I thinkabout my play experience as a
child, it was with siblings orvisiting another friend.
Philippa (17:21):
Yeah.
But I suppose.
Your siblings weren't thenresponsible for feeding you, for
putting you to bed to do.
You know what I mean?
It changes that dynamic I think.
It's not about that siblingsaren't there to play.
Yes, of course.
But when you are 13 andresponsible.
For your brother, your sister,or your other siblings, there's
(17:42):
a very different relationshipthen, and you're not there to
just play with them andentertain them.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's what I'm talking about,the, as an adult, we have the
capacity.
Hopefully to be able to cookdinner and watch our 4-year-old
draw and make comments around.
Yes.
(18:02):
But when you are 13 you justphysically and neurologically
don't have that capacity becauseyou aren't developed.
So yeah, it's not about siblingsplaying.
It's about.
Being in that role of an adultreally in, yes, I see that for
prolonged periods of time.
Again, yeah.
This is not, for a Saturdayafternoon or this is prolonged
(18:22):
periods where your parent is outbecause they have to go out,
they have to go to work.
This is not about being Iabsolutely say that this is what
families.
It ha have to do that.
There is no choice for them.
In some circumstances.
Julie (18:41):
Yeah.
And I'm thinking about asituation where a child, and so
I'm thinking about my ownexperiences, but also I know a
lot of experiences of otherchildren who have this
availability.
To be able to visit a friend andhave what is now called a play
(19:02):
date.
I don't think I ever called itthat as a child, but I just went
to Magda's house and we playedand that was very reciprocal.
I would visit one of my friendsup the road for a few hours and
another night in the week shecome, might come down and visit
me and we lived in identicalhouses.
The, these houses there weresort of seven or eight in a row.
(19:23):
They were all absolutelyidentical.
On the outside, but of courseinside very different.
I played at hers, she played atmine, and that was a lot of my
play development, I think up anddown the street playing at other
other friends' houses.
But if you are living in asituation of poverty, sorry, I'm
(19:44):
just, I'm I.
You'll have to cut this out, butI'm just laughing.
There's a little girl at my gatejust playing with my gate and
making it open and closing.
She's just having a lovely time.
But yeah, the capacity, when youare living in very small
accommodation or accommodation,that's not stable accommodation.
(20:05):
That's temporary accommodationthat is moldy.
That is badly ventilated, thatis poorly decorated, that is
damp.
Your capacity to reciprocatewith a play date is completely
shut down.
You are living in a hotel asyour family.
I'm connected with, have beendoing for 10 weeks, three
(20:28):
teenagers, mom and dad in ahotel room for 10 weeks.
And so they cannot go and visita friend in their house.
They haven't wanted to.
They've wanted to be able to getback to the hotel before dark,
and they've never been able,they're not allowed to have
(20:48):
other children come and visitand they can have adults come
and visit.
But in this hotel, you can'thave children come and visit who
are not living there, and yetcorridor.
It is full of children.
Every door is open and there arechildren in every room in this
hotel.
And these this is not asylumseekers or refugees.
(21:11):
This is British citizens livingin the country who the council
isn't able to find themaccommodation at the moment.
So that reciprocal peerrelationship that can go on with
developing play is really shutdown for many, but not all many
families that live in povertybecause you can't reciprocate
(21:34):
that visiting.
And I think that applies topart, parties, a party might be
in the house.
I think more often now a child'sbirthday party is at a place, at
an event, at a swimming pool, ata climbing wall, at a going out.
And this is an expensive thingto do, but if you are living in
(21:57):
poverty and your child isinvited to that, do you say yes
or no?
One, you've got to get yourchild there.
There might be an expectation ofa present.
There might be the expectationof a card.
Do you, what do you do with yourother children while you wait
around for that child?
You might need to contributetowards the cost of it, but then
(22:20):
when it's your child's birthday.
Have you got the two or 300pound that it might be to have
eight of your child's friendsback?
And so does your child politelysay, no, thank you.
We're already busy that weekendto every party.
And over time, does that thenshut down that child's, social
(22:43):
interaction within the class orwithin the social group?
Because they're not able toreciprocate.
And I see that happening overand over again in school.
And I know something that'shappened in some schools is
they've the school staff havemade not a rule, but an
expectation that every child isinvited to every party.
(23:07):
With the resources of manychildren, if we think nine out
of 30 children are living inpoverty, they can't invite 30
children to their birthdayparty.
Absolutely.
And I, yeah I do disagree withschools that make that
expectation.
I think it comes with, a lack ofunderstanding of the situations.
(23:30):
Many families are living in.
Philippa (23:32):
Absolutely.
It reminds me, I was justthinking about choices and how
we make choices.
And it reminds me, I was inManchester not long ago and I
was Manchester got quite.
Big homeless community.
I think partly because AndyBurnham there has really been
(23:53):
supportive of ho of the homelesscommunity and trying to find at
least sleeping accommodation andthings like that.
So it, I, this would be myuneducated view.
But then that's encouragedpeople to go because actually
there is more resources forhomeless.
People within there.
Within there.
So I was in Manchester and I wason my way back and I was just
(24:16):
gonna get a drink out ofSainsbury's in Manchester,
Piccadilly, which is the bigrailway station there.
And there was a young lad, hewas about 20, maybe I would say
he was younger than my child.
So 19, 20, I would've said.
Loitering outside Sainsbury'sand these two security guards
were watching him and he justsaid to me, excuse me, could you
(24:38):
buy me a pack of sweets?
I was like a pack of sweets.
What do you want me sweetss for?
He said, oh, I just, I want somesweets.
The sugar helps me.
So I was like, come on let's goin and we'll get a meal deal.
And some crisps.
And some sweetss and whateveryou need.
And this, I could see thissecurity guard, thankfully being
kind, following us around as we.
(25:00):
Find his meal deal and hischocolate and he is, and his
sweets and what, whatever it ishe is buying.
But I am saying, I'm talking tohim and he was saying, yeah.
Kay.
I was in foster care and infoster care all my life.
It was from Scotland, he said,and I had a relationship with a
girl and.
W she was from here, so I moveddown here and then that's ended
and now I don't have anywhere tolive.
(25:22):
And he said, I've got 11 pound,11 pound.
And he showed me this 11 poundin his hand.
He said I need 15 pound to beable to buy somewhere to sleep.
He said, so I can't buy any foodbecause I need 15 pound to
sleep.
And that was really his choice.
(25:42):
And he'd been in.
In the care of.
The corporate parents for mostof his life and his day, he was
a young, he was a young man.
I would say, like I say, 1920,who should be with his mates
doing stuff, having a career,and he was having to choose.
Between, did he eat that day ordid he sleep somewhere safe at
(26:06):
night And he still had fourpound to get to be able to have
somewhere to sleep.
And this was kind of seveno'clock at night.
I actually didn't have any cashotherwise I would've given him
the four quid.
But I did buy him his food so atleast he could eat.
But he still had to ask otherstrangers for four pound and his
choice was, where do I sleep?
Or can I eat?
(26:28):
Where is play in that?
Where do you find play withinthose?
That, that, that choice thatyour whole life your whole day
is about finding resources forthose two very basic needs.
One being safe.
(26:49):
Yeah, eating and that was reallywhat his choice was.
Julie (26:53):
And that's making me think of, Maslow's hierarchy of
needs triangle, which, manylisteners will know about.
And at the very bottom of thattriangle is the physical needs
for food, water, shelter.
The physical things that aregoing to keep us alive, the
things that are gonna keep ussafe.
(27:14):
Alive and it's much higher upthat triangle that the sort of
psychological needs, therelational needs can be thought
about.
And so for many families and notall families, and of course
this, there's a big spectrum ofpoverty, even within that 30%
for a number of families livingin poverty, their day is like
(27:37):
that young man that you met.
It's about has everyone gotsomewhere to sleep?
And I don't mean a bed at thisbottom of the hierarchy of
needs.
It's have we got a room?
Have we got four walls toshelter?
Is there food?
Is there water?
And then the next stage isthinking about is there a place
(27:58):
for everybody, a bed or amattress or a corner for
everybody within this space?
Have we got facilities to cook?
Have we got facilities to washand keep clean?
They would be on the next rug.
The energy and time that ittakes to just manage all those
physiological and safety needsmeans capacity or the
(28:20):
availability of the parent andthe capacity for the child to
even think about play is reallyreduced.
Although we all know and youwill know of families and
children who somehow, and I findthis, hugely admirable and
amazing and I don't understandhow playfulness can still be
(28:43):
built into that looking for thephysiological needs.
I'm thinking about a sort of, Isuppose he was about eight or
nine when I worked with thischild in a school.
He was a twin and can't rememberhis name, but I'll call him
Maurice.
(29:03):
I often use Maurice.
I like that name.
And Maurice was referred to mefor play therapy not his twin
brother, interestingly, and.
I knew this family were livingin poverty.
I knew they were living insmall, cramped accommodation,
(29:24):
and I had a beautiful playroom,and I set out my playroom as I
would for every child.
With, resources, cars, artmaterials nurture area, a sand
tray, a water tray.
And I'd recently got a new dollshouse.
It was one of those dolls housesthat folds up and has a handle
(29:48):
and you clip it together.
It's like a little suitcase.
And I'd inherited it from a playtherapist who had recently
retired.
She had given me some of herkit.
And I was so delighted to havethis little house, and Morris
came in.
I didn't know him, I hadn't methim before.
He came with his ta, histeaching assistant who sat
(30:11):
outside and Morris came in andhe was fuming.
He was so angry with me.
That I had provided what Ithought of as a beautiful room
with all these wonderfulresources, and here I was as the
play therapists going to helphim with all his angry feelings.
(30:33):
And here we go.
Maurice.
This is the time for you to sayand do just about anything you
like and I'll let you know ifthere's something you may not
do.
I did my normal spiel, sat down.
And I'll never forget, and Ihave no idea how he had the
strength to do this.
He opened this dolls house andstamped on it and put his foot
(30:58):
right through this very hardplastic, and then just kicked it
around the room before I had, Ijust didn't have the chance even
to call anybody or to say, oh,no.
I I just was in such shock thatthe power of this eight,
9-year-old boy's foot had beenable to smash through this
(31:19):
house, and he ran out and the TAwent and found him and
eventually, he was very brave.
He did come back in.
He was absolutely distraughtthat he had destroyed this and
he thought he was gonna be in somuch trouble.
And what he was able to say tome, and I think, what a brave
(31:40):
boy and thank you, Maurice,wherever you are now for
teaching me this.
He said, you showed me a roomwith all this amazing, wonderful
stuff in it.
And what you don't know is thatyesterday we moved into a hostel
and me and all my brothers andmy mom and my dad and my brother
(32:00):
are living in one room.
And we don't have any toys.
And then you've got thisbeautiful doll's house and I'll
never have a house like that.
And so he needed to destroy it.
And it's really made me thinkabout, as a play therapist, what
(32:21):
it is like for a child living indeprivation to come into a room
that is often very.
Very resourced and what thatsays to them.
And does that hamper theirtherapy?
Does it hamper thatrelationship?
(32:42):
And actually what I went on todo with Maurice is not have so
much stuff.
In fact, it's really changed mypractice.
I have a lot of stuff now inbags and in boxes, so it's not
all out there on display.
And I got to know the kitchenstaff at that school, and every
Wednesday they would save allthe boxes for me, the egg boxes,
(33:07):
the cartons, and there would bea big pile of these for Maurice
to stamp on and for Maurice andI to stamp on, he needed to be
joined in that huge anger he hadfor his situation.
And it does make me think about.
Over providing something for achild that might cause them more
(33:31):
distress and teasing that outwith the child.
'cause I also don't want to thendeprive them of something in the
therapy room.
But I was so pleased with myselffor this beautiful room in this
beautiful dolls house.
But actually for him, it said,you've not taken me into
account.
(33:51):
You don't know my life.
So thank you to Maurice and manyof the children who've helped me
think about that, and I'm sureI'm often still making lots of
mistakes with that.
Philippa (34:02):
It makes me think about the opposite, really.
So when I was doing my training,I worked in Luton again, it was
homelessness with teens who, andso it was a, an overnight stay.
You had to be referred from thehousing department to, to, to
where I was.
(34:22):
So it was a placement that Istayed.
And worked through the summer.
So I was paid work through thesummer and so these kids were 16
to 22, I think, something likethat.
And so they had to be referred.
It was three three beded, andyou'd get, get this list of
names of, and they would comewith this little printout that
(34:45):
they'd held up at a camera soyou could see who it was and and
then they would be allowed intothis little room where you
provided them with very basicfoods and a washing machine so
they could wash their clothes,and then they'd get a bed
overnight.
There was four beds, I think.
And.
And a room for us sleeping in.
When I think back now, I think,oh my God.
Do you know what I mean?
I was in this room.
(35:05):
But anyway'cause I was only inmy early twenties at the time.
I wasn't really very much olderthan the kids that were coming
in the door.
However, it was, look it was anice thing.
And I guess what.
What I was thinking about whenyou were playing, talking about
over providing was that theseyoung people used to come into
this overnight accommodation.
Like I said, they were allowedtwo or three nights so they
(35:27):
could leave the things there andit allowed them to then go and,
go and see if they could sortbenefits without having to take
everything with them.
Or, they could use the phone if.
They could, if you felt it wassafe to come through the other
side of the door, but they wouldoften play in there because
there was very limited stuff inthere because sometimes people
(35:49):
would get angry or they wouldtake things so there wasn't a
lot of things.
But so that there was not thetemptation to take it with them
or whatever it is, but theystill found ways to play and
often word games or ARDS orthings like that, that they
connected and sometimes theyknew one another and they'd gone
(36:10):
together and a couple of themhad got, sometimes there were
four strangers and me in there,but there was still.
Away, I think that they found toconnect, because you had to be
in the place by, I think it waseight 30, so that people
couldn't co turn up withalcohol.
The idea was, but of course, ifyou've got nothing to do all day
(36:31):
and that wasn't always the casebut they did come and yeah, you
would then have a couple ofhours before, before everybody
slowly drifted off to bed.
And people would be going andhaving showers and cooking a bit
of food for themselves orwhatever, but generally there
was a general area and yeah,they found ways I'd forgotten
about that.
(36:52):
It was a really nice summerwork, really, but they would be
playful with one another.
Sometimes it was like taking theMickey outta one another, but in
a really kind of playful way inthese, young people.
Yeah, they had got two nightsaccommodation and they didn't
know where they were gonna sleepafter two nights or if they'd
get any more.
Some of them were able, we wereable to find more permanent
(37:14):
accommodation.
Some of them they weren't, butthey could still find moments of
connection through play.
And that's what I think it was.
It was connecting with the otherpeople in that place, in that
same situation throughplayfulness.
And sometimes, we'd find a packof cards and have a game of
cards or, yeah.
(37:35):
So that was, those were reallynice.
And those are, really hard timesfor those young people, but they
still found playfulness withinthat.
Julie (37:47):
That's where the hope is.
And I'm going back to thinkingabout that Maslow's Triangle.
Which is quite stark in a sense.
I think it's got sort of fivelevels to it, and you move from
one to the other and play it.
Although it's not mentioned inthat, that triangle would be up
towards the top, the middle andtop end.
(38:07):
But what you are saying there isthat capacity for humans.
Those young people you wereworking with to bring
playfulness even into thatsituation at the very bottom of
Maslow's Triangle of gettingyour basic needs met.
But can that also be done withsome playfulness, word play,
(38:29):
mucking around together and it'smaking me think about charities
and government services andservices.
That are really looking after orat least looking out for those
physiological needs, those thensafety needs.
Whether there's capacity tobuild in some playfulness, not
(38:55):
just for the children, but toadd in even that sort of playful
connection while you're fillingin a benefits form while you're
filling in a.
Yet another form to move fromtemporary to permanent
accommodation if there can bethat respectful lightness and
(39:17):
playfulness.
Even within those interactions,if you go to the town hall here
and our town hall in Lambeth is,on the main street and every, it
has got a big glass window andeverybody can see everybody
who's waiting in the housingdepartment.
It's a really public space andit's right next to a bus stop,
which it is great to get to, butit means it's very public when
(39:42):
you are asking for accommodationin lamb.
And I look at the children andyoung people who are with their
families and their suitcasesoften in, in that building,
waiting to get their ticket andwaiting to go forward to a desk.
There's no play area.
There's no, as you say, pack ofcards.
(40:02):
There's no lightness on the,there's nothing that soft that.
I'm just thinking about thestarkness of that and yet that
capacity for many humans,children and adults and elders
to be able to do a littleplayful thing, even in the most
(40:23):
dire circumstances.
Philippa (40:26):
And I wonder how people's experience changes how
our body and nervous systemchanges with.
Just a change of environment tobe more playful.
So I've this week I've done a,an interview with a guy named
Joe Franks.
It'll be out in the middle of ofAugust, about.
(40:49):
Play and the justice system.
And one of the things that hewas talking about is very
recently they've started incustody suites.
So when people are arrested todesignate a child.
Sal Really?
He didn't call it a sal, hecalled it some something a bit
softer than that, but reallyit's a sal, isn't it?
(41:11):
Where somebody's being held witha door and they can't get out.
But what he was saying was,instead of having that very
plain.
Paint that's in there.
I don't think I've been in acell really, but that there's
more colorful and there's morelike murals on the wall and
there's some fidget toys andsome balls, and the recognition
(41:32):
that maybe younger children or,younger teenagers might need
something a little bit differentin order to make the experience
more bearable, less frightening.
We know.
But I wonder if, we did that foreverybody.
(41:53):
And that's not about saying thatwhen you go to prison, you
should have this really nicetime or when you're held in
custody because you've, you'vecommitted an offense or possibly
committed offense.
That, that we should, that itshould be all.
Sweetness and lights and fairydust and or whatever it is.
But I just wonder about if therewas just a way of connecting,
(42:15):
what difference would that make?
Do you know what I mean?
Rather than this disconnectionthat these things.
Create.
So the people standing in linewith a suitcase where there's
nothing soft around them, it'svery disconnecting from the
world and from what you aredoing, isn't it?
You've got to be insular andit's quite fearful.
(42:37):
And then, our body is in thatfear response.
And so then we're in the fight,flight, freeze stuff.
And again, if you are locked ina cell or something like that,
it.
You are invoking this fear, andI guess that's what it's
designed for, to make peoplescared so they don't want to
come back, but we completelyknow it's not working.
(42:57):
So I wonder if we triedconnection, what would that be
about?
And I'm not saying that we paintDisney, in people's cells or
stuff like that, but justsomething that kind of says,
we'll connect with you.
We don't like what you did, andwe, there's gonna, there's
gonna, I guess what we've talkedabout before and there might be
(43:20):
a consequence for that.
And there, there might be otherthings for that.
But actually, fundamentally, youare a human being and as another
human being I want to connectwith you.
Julie (43:33):
Yeah.
And thinking.
UN convention on the rights ofthe child.
The right to relax, play andtake part in cultural and
artistic activities.
That is the right for everychild.
And the definition is under 18.
At 18 and under for the UNConvention.
(43:54):
I.
That's, that right exists.
Whether you are in custody,whether you are in poverty,
whether you are living in apalace, whether you are living
in a beautiful apartmentoverlooking a river, whether you
are in school, whether you arein an afterschool club, whether
you are in the queue waiting forhousing that right to relax.
(44:18):
And I think I'm reallyinterested that they use that
word first to relax.
Play, I know you're talkingabout the sensory system, that
capacity to exhale and reduceyour regulation.
Come down from hyper intosomething that could be
(44:41):
relational.
And I just see so missed manymissed opportunities to just
have.
A playful interaction withsomebody in a waiting room, to,
to play peek boo with a child inthe waiting room at the gps or
(45:02):
in the food bank queue and I seewonderful people who both are in
the queue or other servers inthe queue who are able to just
engage everybody or a littleone.
In a bit of peekaboo or making alittle paper doll out a piece of
paper and just keepingconnection through play, even
(45:27):
though something really prettyawful is going on.
But for the child to havethemselves regulated by the
adults around them.
And I so often see this, and Iknow I do this myself on the
many buses that I get to go onPhilippa and I appreciate the
poverty of public transportwhere you are.
I'm forever on buses and trains,and I'm one of those people that
(45:53):
does interact with other peopleon the train and on the bus and
get conversations going.
And if there's a child or a pet,I'll often be quite playful with
them and I can see the relief.
The parent's face thatsomebody's liking their child.
Somebody's just lifting them for10 minutes, not physically
(46:15):
lifting them, but lifting theatmosphere.
Because often a parent and achild has got into a real tussle
and they're sitting thereseething each other on the train
or the bus, and I'll sometimesjust say, oh gosh, mom, that's a
really tough day.
You are both having, yeah.
And then the little one willlook up.
And then just playing something,you know in this, the mist on
(46:37):
the window or just beinginterested in their new trainers
that they've got or noticingtheir hair or something playful
about the child.
And I can see just the lightnessthat often comes then to the
parents if somebody else hasnoticed us.
And noticed us in a good way.
(46:57):
Yeah, I'm having a tough timeand I was shouting at my kid 10
minutes ago and it was all a bitawful because, I don't know
where I'm gonna get foodtonight, but just being another
person around that family, andI'll never see them again, but
just for that five or 10 minutessaying, I recognize you're in a
(47:17):
tough place.
Isn't your child just beautiful?
And noticing that with them.
And then you can see the gentlerway that they get off the bus
with their child.
And just because they've beenrecognized as somebody who's,
suffering or in pain or having atough day.
(47:38):
And I haven't rolled my eyes.
I haven't totted I've just triedto be with them in it.
Gently, and not everybodyaccepts that or wants that, but
just adding that playfulness inbecause I never know what
situation anybody is in, whatsort of tough day they're having
(47:58):
and somebody just offering thatkindness, I think can lift the
situation and make things a bitmore hopeful.
Philippa (48:05):
And I think it's that connection, isn't it?
I think this is probably a goodplace to start.
Start is that poverty definitelyhas an impact.
It has an impact on everything,on your day to day being on your
access to things, even on yourpotential.
You may.
(48:25):
Have the potential to be thebest footballer in, in, in the
UK or in a club.
But if you can't.
Access the club.
If you can't get spotted becauseyou don't have the money to
attend, it's gonna affect yourwhole life.
It, if, if you can't afford thefood to feed your child
(48:46):
breakfast, it is going to, thereis absolutely no doubt it is
going to impact their day atschool.
There is no doubt that povertyhas massive implications for
everybody living in it.
Some people have differentresiliences, different
(49:06):
structures, different supportsand it doesn't affect everybody
in the same way.
We, and I just think in a worldand in a time where there is so
much abundance, nobody should bein poverty.
And that's a whole politicalthing that we, this podcast is
not about.
But I guess to sum it up in a,in the positive is that even in
(49:31):
those moments, we can findconnection.
And play can offer thatconnection, whether it's with
the child on the boss, whereplay peekaboo or you stick your
tongue out or you just smile atthem.
So that they know that you haveseen them.
And like you say, you areinterested in to the young.
People who are homeless, whoplayed word games in a pack of
(49:53):
cards, or the kids who play,find a can and play kick the can
in the park or whatever it is.
There is connection available.
We need to do a whole lot more.
And we need to, in my view, theworld needs to just be softer
and play can help us be softerand kinder, but we can do it and
(50:14):
you can.
See it and we've bothexperienced it which gives us
that hope.
I think that we can togethermake a kinda more playful, more
connected world.
Julie (50:30):
Yeah.
And Philippa, thank you forsumming that up.
And what I'm really aware ofhaving had this conversation is.
How much my clients, my friends,people in my area, people I've
got to know through my work whoare experiencing or have
experienced poverty, how muchthey have shown me and taught me
(50:53):
about playfulness still existingin their lives, that they have
not disappeared as people.
Because they are living inpoverty.
They have not disappeared asplayful people because they're
living in poverty.
And I have had some of my bestnights or best social events
(51:15):
with a family I'm thinking ofwho are living in deep poverty,
but love a game of Ludo.
And I have never played suchcompetitive ludo as I have.
A hotel room with a familywho've been living in that hotel
room for many weeks and months.
But my goodness, on that hotelbed, could they play a great
(51:38):
game of voodoo?
And I have never laughed as muchas I did that night, and I'm
very grateful to that family andother families in my life who
teach me that you don't needmoney and a great number of
resources to be able to play andstill connect.
Philippa (51:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's a great way to end.
So thank you for listening tothis episode of Pondering Play
and Therapy.
Hit the like button subscribe,and we'll see you next time.
Bye-bye.
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