June 20, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' Philippa and Julie dive into the critical role of play within school environments. They discuss the decline in playtime availability over the years across primary, secondary, and nursery schools. They explore how therapists can collaborate with schools to support children's learning and well-being through play. The conversation highlights how play helps children learn, manage transitions, and cope with anxiety, ultimately promoting their overall development. They also emphasise the importance of tailoring approaches to fit each child's individual needs.
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Episode Transcript
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Philippa (00:03):
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
Therapy with me, Philippa,
Julie (00:10):
and me, Julie.
This week's episode, we're goingto be thinking about play and
schools and partly thinkingabout play within normal life of
schools.
How much play is available tochildren how it's maybe
decreased over many years.
(00:31):
Thinking about play in primaryschools, secondary schools,
nursery schools, but alsothinking about how as
therapists, we can work withschools to help them to
understand the child thatthey're caring for, thinking
about play and school andtherapy, because certainly as a
(00:52):
therapist, that's been a bigchunk of my work.
Where I take the therapeuticskills into school and actually
see individual or groups ofchildren within a school
setting.
So that's the content list forthe next wee while and this
episode, I think
Philippa (01:11):
also, Julie, I wonder if it's about how play can
support schools, but play thatcan support children in a
lesson, support children to beable to learn.
Play has a bigger role, I think,than just playing on the
playground oh, absolutely.
There's that aspect of it aswell, isn't it?
(01:32):
How do we support children toaccess education and play can be
a conduit, I think is the wordfor that.
Julie (01:42):
Yeah, so thinking about play in schools and seeing, I
mean we are both working inEngland and we have contact with
the English education system andwe've become aware over the last
few years of how different thatis in Scotland.
The big thrust within Scotland'seducation system and embedded in
(02:06):
government is that play is anabsolute essential for children
outside school, but also inschool.
So I think Scotland is way aheadof England in that way.
But we also know in England wehave the early years foundation
stage, which is the Naugh tofive children.
So children in their first yearor so of formal schooling where
(02:31):
play is embedded, butinterestingly play then
disappears.
From the regulatory body, whichin England is called Offstead,
England and Wales play justdisappears as something that's
looked at and required withinschools.
But of course, we know allschools have, sometimes they
(02:53):
call it a break time, sometimesthey call it a play time.
So yeah, we've got the outsideplay and we'll think about that.
What might that look like?
But as you said, how is playembedded within the life of the
indoor school that may involvethe aspects of learning, of
(03:14):
socialization, of being able totransition from one activity to
another and also do that bigtransition from inside to
outside and back in again, whichwe know many of the children
that we work with reallystruggle with.
They can be fairly regulated inthe classroom for, 20, 30
(03:38):
minutes to do a task.
But the transition time is thetime where things get really
wobbly for them.
So it's thinking about play inall its aspects.
Primary schools, which in thiscountry are generally four till
11 year olds.
Secondary schools sometimescalled high schools, generally
(04:00):
11 year olds to, well now 18,till 16.
Thinking about play in everyaspect of school right through
the education span.
Can I just
Philippa (04:12):
pick up on something?
We said Julie.
And that's only because I guessmy experience of parenting my
children maybe is not that theycan concentrate for 20 and 30
minutes in a lesson.
I think for some children, yeah,that's really difficult.
I agree.
Five minutes is a maximum amountof time for lots of different
(04:34):
reasons.
And we've talked in previousepisodes about children who
struggle just to be in theirbody just to sit or just to be
still.
Actually, 20 minutes is a reallylong time to be in your body.
But for some children, certainlyfor my child, sitting for 20
minutes was pretty muchimpossible.
And I have loads of funnystories I could tell you where,
(04:56):
the teachers have called me inand said, do you know what he's
doing today?
He was, lying on his back andshuffling around the floor.
But he always was listening.
If they said what have we beentalking about?
They would be able to answerexactly what they were talking
about.
They would be able to answer thequestion.
It wasn't that they weren'tlistening, it wasn't that they
were misbehaving, they justneeded to be occupied.
(05:21):
To be moving and play was areally, in my view, is a really
good way to be able to do that.
But the expectation is you sitin this seat and it's really
hard for me.
Do you know what I mean?
But for a kid it's impossible, Ithink sometimes.
Julie (05:39):
Absolutely.
And I think, in saying that sortof 20 or 30 minutes, that could
be 20 or 30 minutes ofconcentration.
But that doesn't, I'm notimplying that would be sitting
still with a pencil in my handat the desk, but I have realized
that is often the expectation,even for four year olds,
(05:59):
five-year-olds, which in otherparts of the world, they'd be
appalled at that.
We expect our four and five yearolds to be sat at a desk for,
20, 30 minutes potentially at atime, which we know
physiologically is very tricky.
Some children manage that andare very regulated in that, but
for most four or five year olds,their bodies are built to move.
(06:24):
But that doesn't mean, as yousaid, that they're not taking in
what's being shared, what'sbeing spoken about, what's being
presented or what they're ableto explore.
And I think even before we cameonto this call, Philippa, I was
saying I've got, if somebodycould see my desk, maybe I'll
need to do a photograph of mydesk as we are doing these
(06:46):
podcasts, because I've got mycoloring pencils, I've actually
got pastels out today.
I've got a few elastic bands.
I've got a ribbon I've got aruler.
I've got an old five pound notefrom Scotland that I keep
folding up.
For me, there's something abouthaving something in my hands,
(07:09):
what somebody else would callfiddling.
Oh, I've got a lovely piece ofBlue Tech at the moment as well.
Doing something with my handsallows me to concentrate on you
and our conversation.
I wouldn't be able to do thispodcast sitting still.
It is not so much, I don't needto move my whole body.
(07:31):
So I'm sat on a chair with acouple of cushions.
I don't need, I feel I don'tneed to move my feet, but for
me, there's something about Ineed to move my hands in order
to focus.
And whether somebody would callthat fiddling a nonsense, I can
imagine if I, and I was doingthat at school that wouldn't
(07:53):
have gone down so well, but it'splaying, for me it's playing
with the items on the desk,which allows me to focus.
Philippa (08:04):
Yeah.
And I think, so I think there'sthat kind of needing to move ISN
there.
And for my child, that wassomething that was always
necessary.
And I was very lucky that mychild went to a very small
school that we could accommodatelots of these things and kinda
give some boundary to it.
They were allowed to move, theywere allowed to do things that,
(08:27):
if we were going into the halland doing the Chris Tingle
ceremony, they had three ChrisTingles because the first two
would've been demolished and theorange eaten and the sweets
flicked across the floor.
And you still wanted them tohave a Chris Ingle to take up.
So there'd be a third one that,you know.
And so I was very lucky and wehad a school and a school,
(08:48):
relationships with the teachersthat enabled that to happen.
I also think there's the otherchildren who maybe have
experienced early life trauma oradversity and those sorts of
things, and why the classroomthey are really hypervigilant
and really hyper aware and thenot being able to sit still is
because they are, their nervoussystem.
(09:12):
Is on high alert and they needto know what's going on.
And actually sitting still at adesk and concentrating on the
teacher can be really difficult.
It might be like we've talkedabout that their body just
needs, they just needs to movebecause I.
They haven't got the strengththat they need to sit for that
amount of time.
And so you can't beconcentrating and learning if
(09:34):
what you are trying to do ismake your body do something that
it literally can't do.
I think about it, it's likegoing to the gym and being on
the treadmill or lifting weightsand you are really at the end of
your capacity and knackered andsomebody says to you can, recite
the seven times table, you'd belike, really, mate, go and do
(09:56):
one.
I am just about to not die onthis treadmill, or whatever it
is.
And that's so there's that thingthat actually all their good
energy is being either to be intheir body or.
To make sure they're safe, thathypervigilance, that hyper
awareness, especially if you'vegot movement or people coming in
(10:18):
and out the classes or they canhear stuff in the corridor.
Actually, what that child isgonna be doing is concentrating
on those other things becausethey need to know that those
things aren't gonna come andkill them.
They're not gonna die.
So they're definitely not gonnabe listening to their phonics
or, how a volcano works or stufflike that.
(10:41):
'cause that's not the stuffthat's gonna keep them safe.
What is gonna keep them safe isknowing who's just about to walk
in the door and so children thenfidget and move and can't sit
still or go and hide or go andrun and all those sorts of
things.
And I often.
Work with schools and think withschools about how can we help
(11:02):
these children, whether they'relittle people in primary school,
high school's worse because youdo a lot more moving with a lot
more teachers, with a lot ofdifferent presentations.
And that being able to readsomebody's body language and
know what they're gonna be likeis really hard, especially when
you are hypervigilant and hyperaware.
(11:23):
And when you've got one classteacher, for most of the day, at
least you can settle in.
When you are changing every hourand a half, every two hours,
every time you walk in thatclassroom, you've got to
reassess how safe am I?
Am I gonna die today?
What is this gonna be like?
And like I say often then it'swith schools, it's thinking
(11:44):
about how can we help thesechildren, these young people, be
able to access learning in a waythat is.
Helps them in their body.
So whether it's that they needto move a bit more, whether, and
play can and play, I don't meanin the formal sense of going and
(12:05):
getting the cars out, just beingable to fidget.
Just being able to stand up,just gonna get a job, having a
job so that they actually canmove.
That actually, it doesn't makethem stand out.
They just go and take theregister to the office.
They just go and collect thepencil, give the pencils out.
How do we help children andyoung people reduce that hyper
(12:28):
vigilance?
Use the energy that they've gotto learn rather than to fit into
a system.
Does that make sense?
Julie (12:38):
I think that I, before I became a play therapist, I was
primary school teacher for along time, and there were lots
of children in that school.
Who were the children who reallystruggled to be able to fit in
with what, as a teacher I wasexpecting, and I think if I was
(12:59):
back in the classroom now, Iwould do things very
differently.
I've learned a lot more abouthow the body works, about how
the mind works, how the emotionswork, and I, almost asked
forgiveness of some of thosechildren.
I thought that I just didn'tunderstand what was going on.
So I'm very grateful for thelearning and the experiences of
(13:19):
other people that have reallyhelped me understand that.
But I do remember the sending,because sending a child to
another class or invite, sendinga child on a task rather than as
a punishment.
And this was a faith school, sowe had bibles in the school, and
a Bible is pretty heavy.
(13:40):
It's quite a thick book.
So if I had a fizzy child, achild that was rocking, swinging
about to explode, I would sendthem on a mission to take all
the bibles from our classroom tothe furthest away classroom.
But they had to take them insets of five.
(14:00):
So over half an hour, they wouldmove all these bibles up and
down stairs to the other side ofthe school and back again.
And it really did their musclesa lot of good.
It helped'em to concentrate andfocus.
They became much more regulated,gave the rest of the class a
(14:21):
break because this child'smovements were very distracting
course for me and the otherpupils.
And a task was completed.
Often I'd send them down toreception.
I'd have to go with a note tosay, I know you don't need
these, but can you please acceptthem?
A couple of days later, I'd sendthe same child to go and collect
(14:43):
all those Bibles.
Again, I think the child knewwhat was going on.
I knew what was going on, but itdidn't shame them.
It didn't send them out of theclass for being naughty.
And sometimes it was a usefultask, but, a sense of bringing
playfulness into how as a staffmember I might be able to help a
(15:05):
child and help myself and therest of the class manage a
situation that is getting a bitbubbly and just acknowledging,
gosh, it looks like your bodyneeds to do a lot of moving.
Oh, that's oh, could you bereally helpful?
All these Bibles need to go downto Mr.
So and and it would really, itmakes me smile now to think
(15:29):
about it.
The other thing is, you weretalking there about the very
hypervigilant child who needs tosit so they can see the door.
I think I've made the mistakeoften of having the child that
needed me to be close to me, butactually what they needed to be
is sat in the furthest corner ofthe classroom where they didn't
(15:53):
have their backs to anybody.
They could see the whole classand they could see the door.
They didn't need to be close tome.
They needed to be able to seeeverything.
And I remember one boy who was,he had a troubled start in life.
He was still living a verytroubled life.
He knew the entire timetable ofevery class in the school.
(16:18):
We would just have, I can stillremember his name.
I can still see him.
We would just have to ask him,oh where will year one be?
At the moment?
Oh, they'll just be coming infor break.
But then they've got maths.
He, because he kept such an eyeon everything, I think for his
own safety.
But again, we would use that assomething helpful.
(16:41):
Oh.
Oh, I wanna send, where wouldthey be at the moment?
But he knew the entire timetableas a whole school.
Philippa (16:48):
And that's hard work though, isn't it?
Because you've got thosechildren who need to kinda see
the whole thing and then you'vegot the children who need to be
really close and sit at thefront where they need the
teacher to, touch their shoulderwhen they're talking so that
they feel connected and groundedand safe.
Yes.
That they need, to hold theteacher's blue ack or to hold
(17:08):
the teacher's board robberbecause that is that connection
with the their safe adult.
Yes.
It's the adult that keeps themsafe compared to the child who
sits and the survey, everything.
It's the child that's keepingthemselves safe.
Yeah.
And it's different for eachchild.
And it's thinking about how.
(17:28):
How do we incorporate that intothese very structured days?
Because, I dunno about you,Julie, but sometimes I, will see
a child after school, whetherthey're a teenager or a little
person, and they are exhausted.
They are absolutely exhausted bythis day at school because some
(17:52):
of them have been holding ittogether, so they haven't
exploded.
Some of them have been masking.
So they've got this really bigsmile on at school day that
says, I am great, I'm perfect.
I'm gonna do everything that youask me to.
But actually inside they're likea little swan and their anxiety
is so great and they're soworried about disappointing the
(18:13):
teacher or being disappointed totheir friends or failing try so
hard, and they mask all thesethings that when they come into
to therapy and also at home,it's like, whew, there's this
big explosion.
All these things that have beenheld in at school are out.
Or there's the opposite of that,the child or the young person
(18:35):
that just can't hold it inschool.
They don't wanna be misbehaving,they don't wanna be being
difficult.
But actually it's so hard forthem, it's so anxiety provoking.
They really don't know wherethey are or what they're
expected to do.
And they can't, even if theyknow they can't because their
brain isn't working'causethey're keeping themselves safe
or their body isn't working'cause it isn't working in that
(18:57):
way.
Or they're feeling, shamed orrejected.
Yeah.
So by the time they come intotherapy, it's ugh, I'm such a
bad person.
I've had this really bad day.
It's all my fault.
It's because I, there issomething wrong with me.
And actually there is nothingwrong with this kid.
It's just all these otherthings.
(19:18):
And that is so hard, and we seeit in therapy, but parents see
it at home, don't they?
That every day their child iscoming home and.
There's this dysregulation orthere's this collapse or
disconnect.
And that's really hard to dothat every day and see your
child in this level of distress.
(19:38):
And schools are saying no, he isgot to behave.
Or No, they are behaving.
There's no problems here.
Don't know what, you must behome.
Must be something you are doingat home.
Because actually here they'reperfectly fine.
They're achieving or he'sterrible, he's not gonna be able
to stay in this school.
And those just, it's just anoverwhelming, I just have so
(20:02):
much empathy for children andfamilies that are experiencing
this every day.
And for the teachers who aretrying stuff Yeah.
To get the children to tick abox that somebody else's put
there for them.
'cause they've got their ownpressures, haven't they?
Of this is what we are expectedto do.
(20:23):
Yeah.
Julie (20:24):
And I think there is that huge disconnect between the
passion and the desire for staffand teachers teaching
assistants.
Any, anybody who's in the, onthe school staff, the kitchen
staff, the caretaking staff.
The admin staff who want to havegood relationships with one
another and with the childrenand want to have good
(20:46):
relationships with the families.
But there are lots and lots ofpressures that mean that with 30
odd children in the classroomand budget pressures and ofsted
press pressures the curriculumpressures, it's so hard as a
member of staff.
(21:08):
To actually meet each child'sindividual needs or to even get
to know each child well enoughto know what's gonna suit them.
And I think it's a really hardplace to be.
I don't think I would like to beback in the classroom now.
It's about 12 years ago that Ileft.
But I, it's interesting when Iwas looking at the Scottish
(21:28):
government plan for play forchildren in Scotland, or play
for anybody actually inScotland, a huge part of it is
now embedding play within thetraining, initial training for
teachers
Philippa (21:44):
and
Julie (21:44):
putting play as a regular part of the professional
development training for staffwho've been teaching for many
years to look at the benefits ofplay.
Not just the amount of time achild might be outside in the
yard in the playground, butthinking about the different
(22:06):
types of play.
My memory of my teacher trainingwas if you can build in a sort
of playful activity in theteaching, then that's a good
thing.
So if I was teaching maths, butif you did it through something
through actually cutting up acake, then there's the
motivation.
'cause you get to eat the cake.
(22:27):
So there's this sort of learningthrough plate.
That's been around for a longtime.
But actually seeing the hugebenefit of genuine free play.
Genuine, you've got an hour andthese are the limits, a bit like
I might say in a therapysession.
(22:47):
These are the limits, these arethe boundaries.
Time boundaries where you can gonot hurting each other and so
on.
And just giving space forchildren and young people to be
free without a task, withoutanybody assessing it.
(23:08):
And I remember days where, I wasat a school where, yes, we did
the curriculum and we dideverything that we were meant to
do, but there was an ethos of,if you know it, it's okay to do
some other things.
So sometimes just in anafternoon, getting the art
(23:28):
materials out and lots ofdifferent sized bits of papers
from post-it notes or stamp sizeto the big A one sheets.
And each child could choose whatthey did.
And it was amazing whathappened.
And nothing went up on the wall.
(23:50):
Children didn't want to keep it,they didn't have to keep it,
they didn't have to talk aboutit.
They didn't have to share itwith anybody, but they were just
given time to see what happens.
And I think that sort of freeplay is very rare for children
either at home or at school.
So it could be, it's toostructured sometimes, the
(24:11):
teacher says, oh, you can play,but with this, and this, and you
must make a this or that.
And then we'll all look at it,we'll all discuss it.
To me, that's not quite play.
It is playfulness withineducation activity, but it's
where is that?
(24:31):
Let's just see what happens.
Type play.
Philippa (24:35):
And that's wonderful, isn't it?
And I guess for me that wouldbe, I would love that to just go
and mess and play and do thosesorts of things.
But there are some children thatwould be really scary for.
Yes, absolutely.
Terrifying that thought.
Yeah, that you could choosebecause you might choose the
wrong thing.
(24:55):
You might fail, you might breakit, you might disappoint.
That is really for somechildren.
And that in itself is a balance,isn't it?
And I guess it's knowing thechildren, if you've got enough
teaching staff in there, even intherapy, we know you have to get
(25:17):
to know your children, don'tyou?
You have to get to know how arethese children gonna be?
For some, you need very quiterigid structure, I would say,
where it's, this is what it'sgonna be.
We're gonna run it in this way,you are gonna get that tin, I'm
gonna get this tin.
And it's very fluid and veryrigid.
For other children, you can be alittle bit more fluid.
(25:40):
What the goal of the session is,and you can just take some
cotton balls in and a straw andkind of know that's what you're
gonna do, but you'll go withwhere the child is and be able
to flow a little bit more withthat.
I wonder about teachers.
Kind of capacity to be able todo that when you've got so many
(26:02):
children or even if a childneeds that, how you can give
that if there are four childrenthat need that or six children
that need that.
And that in itself can be reallyhard, can't it?
Is that the knowing and pitchingthese kind of things in the
right place.
'cause free play, like you say,is absolutely amazing and
(26:26):
important and children shouldreally be able and encouraged to
do that.
But it can be quite scary beingin this space.
And I wonder if some childrenneed that free play on their
own.
Julie (26:41):
Yes.
But it, you can be on your own.
This is the other thing I see inschool a lot.
You can be on your own, but inthe presence of other people,
and for some children, they'lltake themselves into a small
corner or sit under a table anddo their own private thing
without anybody else needing tolook.
(27:04):
Because as you said, that isscary or it's the sort of scary
that's it's less than scary.
It's because it's new.
I've never, I don't know whatI'm gonna do.
I don't know what's gonna comeout, so I don't want anybody
looking as I do it.
Absolutely.
I think that it the sense ofbuilding my knowledge of myself
(27:27):
when I have a non-directed task.
Yeah,
Philippa (27:33):
huge.
I just wanted to come back tothat difference between being
new and being scared.
Those are slightly different.
Aren't, there's one's about,it's new and I dunno what's
gonna come out.
And that in itself is a littlebit scary, a little bit anxious,
but it's not overwhelming, isit?
It's not a feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whereas I suppose what I wonderis there is those children where
(27:56):
they've had, trauma backgrounds,adversity, they, or they might
still be living in it where theyare belittled or there is no
emotional scaffolding where theyare scapegoated or blamed and
therefore doing things isfrightening for them.
And I think we, I think, yeah,we did, I think in episode four
(28:19):
we talked about play.
Being frightening and what thatwas around, because that kind of
play, that kind of free play is,I'm gonna disappoint and
somebody is gonna shame me.
Somebody is gonna belittle merather than I'm a little bit
anxious about.
Maybe I can't do it.
Maybe I they're different,aren't they?
One is, like you say, developinga sense of who you are and what
(28:41):
you can and can't do.
And it may be that you arerubbish at drawing, but that's
a, you'll be able to be okaywith that.
Whereas the other one is, it'sall my fault and I'm bad, and
that's because I'm a terrible,bad person that I can't draw
this picture.
Or per and they're slight,they're different in the
(29:02):
internalization of those things
Julie (29:05):
and they, so yes.
Nervousness one, I would callnewness and nervousness.
We are built to be nervous ofnew things.
You've said that you are gonnabe learning a new skill soon,
and you'll be nervous aboutthat.
Excited and nervousness can feelthe same, but yes.
And then there's the absolutefear, terror shut down because
(29:32):
of past experiences that havesaid, I, as you said, I'm bad at
this and somebody is potentiallygonna shout at me.
Tell me off.
Somebody's going to.
Rubbish what I've done andselect
Philippa (29:46):
or withdraw their relationship from it.
'cause I think that's anotherbig thing.
'cause for children in school,they need to, for some children
who've had these experiences,they need to be pleasing the
teacher, which is why you seelots of that masking because
their fear is, if I disappointthat person, they're gonna
(30:07):
withdraw that relationship fromme.
They're gonna withdraw theirattachment, and I rely on that
person to meet my needs.
Yeah.
And that disappointment willmean that they are going to not
like me anymore.
To not smile at me anymore, tonot let me lunch anymore.
And I know all of that's nottrue, but that's not what the
(30:29):
internalization of the child is.
Julie (30:33):
Yeah.
So there's the.
The relationship where, as yousaid, it's about keeping the
other close and we knowknowledge of attachment theory
and others it's aboutrelationship is about what do I
need to do to keep thisrelationship going and keep my
secure person close to me.
(30:55):
But also there are relationshipswithin schools where it appears
that the child is doingeverything to reject everything,
to make life difficult for theirpotential secure basis.
And that's much harder for thestaff member to understand
because it's physically can bevery hurtful.
(31:18):
There are children who kick,bite, scratch.
There are staff who end theirweak, with injuries, with
plasters on their legs and theirhands because a child has
attacked.
And that's very frightening forthe staff member as well as for
the child.
So that's much more tricky tothink about is how to use
(31:40):
playfulness.
And I don't mean sitting downand playing a game, but just
being curious and playful in ourminds about what is going on for
that child that caused thatattack.
What is it that maybe I did?
What is it that was in theenvironment?
What is it that happened threedays ago that is still exploding
(32:02):
for that child?
But I've not noticed.
And that is really, I don't havea solution or a let's do this.
I don't have a solution forthis.
But even just to notice it'soften not an explosion from a
child is often not about whathas just happened.
Often we'll say to the child,oh, what happened?
(32:23):
What's made you so upset?
What made you bite Mr.
But often, the child won't knowthat.
But physiologically it couldoften be something that's
happened days before or yearsbefore.
But somehow a little hint ofthat has emerged again in that
moment with Mr.
So andSo, and that's caused thathuge fear response of attack.
Philippa (32:48):
And I think there's things isn't there, like when
children are on the playgroundthere's a lot of that play would
be free play as opposed toschools would say as well.
They have these breaks atlunchtime, definitely in the
morning.
Some do in the afternoon, somedon't.
Depends on the school.
They've got this free play.
Even when it's wet play, they'vegot free play.
(33:09):
But that in itself is reallyhard because.
For some children, they've gotto negotiate peer relationships,
and that is if we thinking, Ithink you've talked about in
several, there's Maslow'shierarchy of need.
Actually these peer socialrelationships quite high up,
(33:30):
don't they?
You need quite a lot offoundations before you get to
actually, let's be able toengage in this peer
relationship.
But if you're not feeling safe,so you are the child whose
little nervous system is alwayson the lookout of, who's coming,
where's it going, what'shappening?
The shouting, the noise, theballs rolling around all can be
(33:51):
fear response.
Then you've got, am I going toget any food when I get home
tonight?
Am I gonna have a bed to sleepin?
Is there gonna be an adult therethat's gonna look after me?
Am I gonna be safe when I gethome?
You've got all those sorts ofthings.
I remember working when I firstdid my social work training, I
worked with teenagers, actually.
(34:13):
They were doing their GCSEs andI worked with this one lad.
Honestly, he was just amazing.
He was an absolutely amazingyoung man and, he was so clever.
Absolutely.
Like naturally intelligent.
He just was the most, honestly,he was amazing.
(34:34):
He was a lovely lad.
He'd had lots and lots ofdifferent foster placements,
lots of different things likethat and, he was super, super
clever.
I used the project to try andhelp them attain GCSEs.
It was in a place called SouthOxy in North London.
We used to do it in differentways.
So these were playful ways.
(34:55):
I would sit in McDonald's and domaths, or they would wash my car
with me.
it wasn't slave labor, but itwas a way that they could do
things.
And still learn.
So we would do mass washing,washing my car, we'd sit on, and
watch football match schoolfootball or something like that.
(35:16):
But I remember saying to thisyoung man what is it about
school?
Because he actually, he reallywanted to learn.
He wanted knowledge.
He, it wasn't that he rejectedit, it wasn't that he knew he
was clever.
So I did, I said to him what isit that stops you from going to
school?
And what he said was, and thishas stayed with me forever
(35:37):
really, is because it's quietand I have to sit there.
So all the things come back inmy head.
All the things obviously, Iwon't go into what those things
are, but really what he wassaying was, is because he has to
just sit and he can't be busyand he can't keep moving and he
can't distract himself by stuff.
All those negative experiences,all that trauma was an
(36:02):
opportunity to come back intohis head.
So he would say, how on earthcan I do algebra?
When what I'm thinking about isblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm never gonna do algebra quietbecause it opens the door for
all this past experience to comeinside.
So what the school saw was thisnaughty, disobedient,
(36:26):
aggressive, violent kid.
And he was excluded until he wasin this project.
Whereas actually what he was akid who was.
Trying his best to be in aclassroom and fight all these
years of demons, who was superintelligent, who had super
amount of potential.
But because he had to sit atthis desk and work in this way,
(36:49):
he couldn't access it, thelearning because it wasn't the
right environment.
But, and he got his GCSEs hedid, was, I won't tell the
story.
It was quite tricky.
But him and two others got theirGCSEs in and all, but they
learnt by washing cars, bysitting in McDonald's, by Trek,
(37:10):
walking.
So we would track, we would goand like I say, sit and watch
school football while we weredoing English.
And they got their GCSEs atdifferent levels, but they all
achieved it.
But none of it was traditionallyeducated.
They were ama absolutely amazingkids.
(37:30):
They must be probably in theirlate thirties now.
But yeah, and I suppose what I'msaying is that traditional style
of school, of being a having tosit is just doesn't fit when
you've, when you aren't feelingsafe, when you haven't got that
ma, which is where I started totalk about, wasn't it, that
(37:52):
Maslow's hierarchy of need.
If you are stuck at the bottom,how on earth are you ever gonna
get up to the top where you areopen enough to learn or engage
in peer relationships?
This used to just fight all thetime, but he fought all the time
because actually that was theway that got rid of those things
in his head.
And then he got sent home and sothen he didn't have to sit.
(38:14):
And that was, he just got sentoutta class and then he was
excluded from school.
And so the cycle began, but whywouldn't you?
If that was us, we wouldn't doany different, would we?
Because how would you survivethat when you are a kid, when
you are 14, 13, and what youremember and what you are
feeling is all those horrendousthings.
(38:35):
How do you do anything anydifferent?
Julie (38:38):
I'm thinking of a very different child who, she was 11
when I'm thinking about this.
Who had, as you said, herMaslow's hierarchy of needs were
not always met.
She wasn't always fed, shewasn't always treated well.
There wasn't always an adult inthe home.
She had quite a tricky journeyto and from school.
(39:01):
We suspected there was physicalpunishment going on at home,
quite brutal physicalpunishment.
But actually the way she managedthat, the way her brain and body
worked is when she came intoschool, she wasn't masking, but
she switched off home.
She switched off anything to dowith her family, and there was,
(39:25):
she was the oldest and therewere several other siblings, and
she was able to learn andachieve brilliantly.
I taught music in the school fora while.
She learned a musicalinstrument.
She had friends, she played, shecompleted all her work.
She was a high achiever.
(39:48):
And I remember when we becameaware of some of the stuff that
was going on at home, trying toopen a conversation with her
about that.
Or I hear from dad that this hashappened, or I hear that mom's
been living in another countryfor a long while.
We weren't aware of that andthat you've often been looking
after your siblings and da.
She was just, and she was veryclear.
(40:08):
Don't talk about that stuff inschool.
School is my safe place.
I don't want any of that to comeinto school.
So there was also, there's alsothat capacity.
You have your young man, Shaneand this young girl, she had
found her way around it byabsolutely cutting off
(40:29):
everything that was, a adversestuff that was continually
happening at home.
She had managed to create thisoff switch.
And totally focused on school.
Her friendships, her learninguntil three 30 and then it all
got switched off again.
Holidays, breaks from schoolwere really tricky for her
(40:50):
because she didn't get thatbreak, but her mind and body
were able to do a switch on anda switch off.
So it's, I suppose that'ssomething I'm becoming more and
more aware of, as I'm teachingtherapy to students and thinking
about my own referrals that comeis not presuming that because
(41:11):
something is happening at homeor has happened in their lives,
that certain things will happenlater on in life.
So not presuming if a child hasexperienced trauma, abuse,
neglect.
That there will be certainoutcomes afterwards.
Because the hugely interestingthing about human beings is we
(41:35):
all react differently.
We all respond to thingsdifferently.
And so in school, I think goingback to schools and play,
sometimes we will, I might knowabout a child who, on paper
there is nothing adverse goingon.
Child is living with twoparents, child is living in a
(41:56):
permanent home, child is clearlyfed, watered, clothed, goes on
holiday, parents are working,there's a social life.
And yet that child is reallypoor of spirit in school.
They're a really collapsedchild.
Or they just were talking aboutnervousness earlier on, will
(42:16):
find it so difficult to even tryto do something.
And yet they wouldn't meet anyof the criteria for adverse
childhood experiences.
And yet that child could be veryneedy in school.
And that can be very confusingfor staff because it is not
matching up.
(42:37):
But somehow that child'sexperience of themself has been
really not able to developsomehow.
Philippa (42:45):
And I guess that's because we don't always know
what's going on, do we?
We don't know.
'cause sometimes you might haveall your physical needs met, but
your emotional needs are lackingand we don't know what that is
like.
And that's not, again, aboutsaying parents aren't doing
their best, but we don't knowwhat.
The parental situation iswhether there is, depression,
(43:07):
mental health, parents workingaway.
There's lots, I guess we don'talways know, but I suppose what
I think is that Children,really, they don't want to be
getting into trouble they don'twant to be misbehaving.
They don't want to be the kidthat the other kids don't want
to play with or move away fromor are scared of.
(43:28):
They don't want that.
And if that's happening, thereis an underlying reason for it.
Even if it's not obvious or evenif we don't know.
And it's thinking about how dowe work differently with that
project.
I know it's a, it's an extremeone, but there was ways to help
these young people learn.
(43:48):
It just wasn't in a traditionalway.
They did learn.
They had the capacity to learn.
If they weren't in thatenvironment for other children
like yours, it might be thatthey need lots of structure.
They need that one adult in thatschool that has that
relationship with them that theyfeel within that school.
This isn't, this is a safeplace.
(44:09):
This person gets me.
I'm gonna be fed, I'm gonna.
Have my needs met.
And I know I'm safe here.
So I can learn here.
And, but it's stillunderstanding those things.
And then understanding, I thinkthe other things is things like
Mother's Day, father's Day,grandparents' Day.
All schools do those.
(44:29):
And I know that we try andsoften it now, but those can be
really hard for children, evenchildren in birth families
because you don't know whattheir family's you don't know
what, what's going on.
And I suppose it's not aboutchanging those, I'm not saying
that we should never do anythingand everything should be blanket
and wide, but it is aboutactually.
(44:51):
Life is shades of gray, isn'tit?
And how do we have a spectrum ofthose sorts of things?
Do we have to have Mother's Dayor can we have an adult day?
Is there some way that actuallywe can think about, there's more
than this narrow band that wefit in.
(45:12):
So we don't always have to sitat a desk for my son, he
actually had a square, and thatwas, there was a desk within the
square, but he could stand, hecould sit, he could lie, he
could roll, he could do whateverwant, but within this square, so
that there was a boundary to it.
Falling under the teacher's deskand fiddling with her feet and
(45:33):
her shoes, when she was tryingto teach or whatever it was, but
he didn't have to.
Sit at a desk.
So is the ways you know, isthere, a carpet, do they have to
sit crosslegged on a carpet orcan they lie on their side?
Can they roll around in thebeanbags?
Can they, sure.
Like with teenager, I, I workedwith, he got very dysregulated
(45:57):
and food regulated him.
So he used to take Jacob'scrackers and put them in his
locker.
So we were, he wasn't gonna haveall these nice, sweet treats.
Because then he would always begoing out, but.
When he got a little bitdysregulated, he could go out
and go to the lockers and eat aJacob's cracker.
And that with the crunchinessand the feeling of being
nurtured of the crackers and thelittle smiley face that his
(46:20):
carer had put on the Jacob'scrackers was enough to kinda
regulate him back again.
And then you could go back inand carry on and nobody
bothered.
And look, I think, when I workwith schools, often teachers
will say, but if we do it forthem, we'll have to do it for
everybody.
And that is just not true.
(46:41):
I'll just tell you one more.
There was a nursery I workedwith and there was a little lad
who'd, he was with his mom, andhe'd lived in a household of
where there was quitesignificant domestic violence.
He was four, so he was in thekind of the preschool bit just
before year one.
Lunchtime was horrendous.
He just screamed, he kicked, hethrew things, all these sorts of
(47:03):
things because he wanted hisdessert first.
So I said let him have hisdessert first.
And they were like no, becauseeverybody will want their
dessert first.
And so the conversation I hadwas this little boy doesn't
think there's gonna be anydessert left.
That's why he is kicking off.
That's why he is worrying.
(47:23):
He thinks he's gonna have hisdinner.
He eats quite slowly so there'snot gonna be any dessert left.
Because that's been hisexperience that he hasn't got
these things.
He hasn't had his internet.
So he needs his costed.
It was particularly costed.
He needs his costed first so heknows he's had his costed and
then he'll eat his dinner.
And I said to them, my get betis that all these other children
(47:48):
have be lived in a house wherethey're not worrying about
costed and they know that thestructure of lunchtime is main
meal pudding.
And they're not gonna, theymight think, oh, he's own his
coed first, but they are goingto eat their dinner and then
they're gonna have their custard'cause they're not gonna think,
oh, such and such is at all thecustard.
'cause they trust that you'vegot enough SD for everybody.
(48:12):
He doesn't trust that you've gotenough SD for everybody.
And that is the difference.
Let's just try it.
And anyway, they gave him hiscosted first and it worked.
He had his coed and then he hadhis dinner and none of the other
children asked for the costedfirst.
'cause they all thought it wasodd having your costed first.
'cause you always have yourdinner first.
And so they didn't even thinkand need to have a costed first.
(48:35):
They just at their meal and theytrusted, there'd be enough
pudding.
He would thought differently.
He thought there wouldn't beenough pudding.
And then, yeah, so then he hadhis pudding first.
And I'm not saying it's alwaysthat simple, but sometimes we,
it's what does this mean forthis kid?
Can we do something different?
(48:56):
Yeah.
Julie (48:57):
And that takes us back to that kind of word.
The concept of equality.
Equality doesn't mean treatingeverybody exactly the same.
It's about equally meetingeverybody's needs.
Paying attention to everybody'sneeds, giving everybody equal
care and attention andprovision.
(49:18):
That's equality.
Not giving everybody exactly thesame thing.
And I think, the children I'veworked with both as a teacher
and as a therapist, get thatcompletely.
We had a hearing impaired childin the classroom, so that child
needed to wear a lanyard aroundtheir I wore a lanyard around my
(49:39):
neck and that child had hearingaids and a little sort of
battery pack in their pocket.
It wasn't that every child thenin the class wanted to have the
equipment that child had.
They recognized that child had ahearing impairment.
They understood that if they orI spoke, they had to wear this
(50:00):
lanyard, which had a microphonein it.
And we all learn a lot abouthearing impairment and
technology and facilities.
So absolutely I've very rarelycome across a situation of a
child saying that's unfair.
He gets to lie on his tummy todo his maths work.
Everybody needs to lie on theirtummies.
(50:22):
Children understand very quicklythat their friends, their peers,
others in their class havedifferent needs.
And I think the more we can talkabout that and the more that we
can introduce child or learnfrom children about how
accepting they are ofdifference, the better.
I think that view often comesfrom staff that if we do that
(50:45):
for one child, the law wantthat.
Philippa (50:47):
And also the worry that parents will think'cause
the other thing for me is ifthey all wanted the cu first.
So what do that would be myview.
And I mean they didn't, but, soif you eat your custard before
you eat your mashed potatoes, aslong as you are having a
balanced, healthy dietthroughout the day, really what
difference does it make?
(51:08):
And that's a whole differentconversation.
But I do wonder if, some of thepressures for teachers come from
one, the system that they're inand two.
That they may feel that parents'expecta about parents'
expectations about, I knowthere's this kid in your class.
But again, I think if we havethese conversations, if we talk
(51:30):
about it, if we understand it,the lad who goes out and eat his
joke crackers, it's not it inanybody.
It's not making it anydifferent.
But actually he's improving theclass in many ways.
'cause if he doesn't go out andeat his Jacob's crackers, he's
just gonna disrupt it.
He is just gonna keep asking forthe teacher's attention.
So actually the children in theclass benefit more from him
(51:51):
having that difference and if hehas to be the same.
And I think it's just aboutthinking about kids are tally
us.
I have a need.
And we are the adults.
And our job is to think aboutwhat is that need and how do we
meet it?
And a need is different than awant.
(52:12):
I wanna play my Xbox is verydifferent than I need to move,
and those sorts of things.
Sometimes kids do need to playthe Xbox, but I suppose there's
a difference between a need anda want.
If a kid has got a need, surelyour job as an adult is to think
about, okay, what is that need?
How do we help you meet thatneed with us, rather than having
(52:33):
to explode?
Because if a kid can't be in aclassroom, because it's really
hard for them, eventuallythey're not gonna be in the
classroom.
They're either gonna do it bygoing and getting the Jacob
crackers, or they're gonna doingit by chipping the table and
effing at the teacher one way oranother.
That kid is leaving theclassroom.
Let's do it in the way that ishelpful for everybody and
(52:56):
doesn't erode self-esteem.
Erode, self-view.
Julie (53:02):
And Phil, it's really interesting.
I know we're probably coming toan end fairly soon, but we've
started thinking about play andschools and thinking about the
provision of play and schools.
But actually what we've ended upcoming towards more is about how
the staff or the adults in theschool the adult staff in the
(53:26):
school can use their ownresources for playfulness in
thinking about how to meet theneeds of a child, and also
tuning into what the child'sbody is already doing.
Or their lips or their hands arealready doing and seeing if that
can be facilitated in a playful,accepting way rather than trying
(53:49):
to squash the child into theschool box.
So we've, yeah.
So we've gone on a bit of ajourney from thinking about how
children might play in a schooland being in the playground and
playing in the classroom and soon.
But actually, we are beginningto think now about how a playful
accepting attitude can bedeveloped in a classroom that,
(54:15):
as you said, meets the need, notthe want, the need of a child to
stay within the system and staywithin the peer group.
But can we do that in a playfulway?
That keeps us all thinking andreflecting and being creative
(54:35):
rather than, what are the rules?
Let me stick that child into therules, because that's when the
explosion happens.
So if it involves, I've got ayoung girl that I'm working with
at the moment, and she goes toschool every day with two
handkerchiefs, one with each ofher parents' perfumes on them.
(54:55):
And she's allowed she has thatin her bag and as she leaves,
she comes to my house fortherapy.
As she leaves the therapysession, we have a ritual of
food.
There's a lot of food in thesession.
There's a lot of food leavingthe sessions.
And one of the ways for her toleave and make the transition
from therapy and a good hour'sjourney across London to go back
(55:19):
to school when she enters backinto school at lunchtime, it's a
tricky transition, is I have tofill her pockets.
With dried mango, and she letsme know which order to fill
those pockets, and then sheleaves my house eating.
And that's not in any of theplay therapy books.
It's not one of the normal,wouldn't normally have food in a
(55:41):
therapy session.
But for this child that meetsher need, and as you said, it's
not harming anyone, dried mangoin her pockets.
Mom brings a bag of dried mangoevery couple of weeks, and I
keep it in my house and it'swhat we do.
And I know at school she hasbiscuit breaks, she has mango
(56:04):
breaks.
It's really recognized in herschool that's what this little
one needs.
And she's thriving academicallybecause her physical needs are
being met.
Philippa (56:16):
that attachment needs, it's that it's emotional as
well.
It's that this adult keeps mesafe.
This adult is connected to me,this adult understands me.
And that's what those things areabout, isn't it?
It's about, again, when we arethinking about the needs of
children, it's that very firstbit of I am safe, I'm connected,
(56:37):
I'm attuned to, and that's whatwe need.
And when we are doing any ofthese things, that's the bit
we're eating.
It's not, we know that the kidis eating the Jacobs crackers or
the younger or the mango.
They're not hungry.
They've had enough food.
It's not about hunger.
This is about connection.
It's about nurture.
It's about we are present withyou and you can take something
(56:58):
from this environment into thisenvironment.
The smiley face on the Jacobcrackers said to the lad that's
leaving.
I'm still thinking about you.
I'm still present.
I'm still here.
Even though you are not still,you are not with me.
I'm still looking after you.
I am your parent.
And that's what that the Jacob'scrackers and the Somali face
were not that he's hungry.
(57:19):
I guess it's the same with themango.
It's not that she's hungry, isthat the connection remains.
Julie (57:26):
It's about the connection, but it's also, I
think physiologically being ableto chew Yeah.
And to concentrate on that, tosalivate, to move her mouth
really does help to regulate herwhole body because she's
concentrating on her mouth.
And she's getting that.
Feedback from her mouth, whichis so important for her.
(57:50):
Less so having physical things.
I'm much more, I need physicalthings in my hands to have that
input from for her, it's hermouth.
But yeah, I think there's somuch playfulness that can be
present in a school.
And something we haven't touchedon and probably don't have time
(58:10):
to touch on today, is theplayfulness between adults in a
school and children seeing thatand children witnessing staff
having a bit of fun between eachother.
The way staff interact with oneanother.
The playfulness of sending theset of Bibles down to another
(58:32):
class when they're not reallyneeded.
Everybody knows what it's about,but let's still do it.
Keeping ourselves as the adultsin a school alive through play,
I think is crucial as well.
Just not to do with thechildren, but also having a big
impact on the children becausethey can witness how we are with
(58:56):
one another.
And I think that lightens aschool very much.
It's not to be, throwing waterover each other at the school
fate and, having a big laugh,but just the way staff can
interact with one another in aroom.
I think children can really pickthat up as, ah, okay, this is
(59:17):
another way of being.
Philippa (59:19):
Absolutely.
But I think it's a place we needto stop now, Julie.
And that's maybe something thatwe could come on to because I
think that I.
Also works in schools.
It works with parents, it worksin therapy, really, that, how as
adults with the parent and thetherapist how we use playfulness
there.
So that's probably a goodepisode to do later on in the
(59:44):
year.
Julie (59:45):
Go play in the workplace.
Yeah, play at work.
You could do a whole load onthere.
Philippa (59:52):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode
of Pond Dream Play and Therapy.
As usual, if you've enjoyed thisepisode, please hit a subscribe,
follow to our Facebook page andwe will see you next time.
Thank you.
Bye.
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
Therapy with me, Philippa,
Julie (00:10):
and me, Julie.
This week's episode, we're goingto be thinking about play and
schools and partly thinkingabout play within normal life of
schools.
How much play is available tochildren how it's maybe
decreased over many years.
(00:31):
Thinking about play in primaryschools, secondary schools,
nursery schools, but alsothinking about how as
therapists, we can work withschools to help them to
understand the child thatthey're caring for, thinking
about play and school andtherapy, because certainly as a
(00:52):
therapist, that's been a bigchunk of my work.
Where I take the therapeuticskills into school and actually
see individual or groups ofchildren within a school
setting.
So that's the content list forthe next wee while and this
episode, I think
Philippa (01:11):
also, Julie, I wonder if it's about how play can
support schools, but play thatcan support children in a
lesson, support children to beable to learn.
Play has a bigger role, I think,than just playing on the
playground oh, absolutely.
There's that aspect of it aswell, isn't it?
(01:32):
How do we support children toaccess education and play can be
a conduit, I think is the wordfor that.
Julie (01:42):
Yeah, so thinking about play in schools and seeing, I
mean we are both working inEngland and we have contact with
the English education system andwe've become aware over the last
few years of how different thatis in Scotland.
The big thrust within Scotland'seducation system and embedded in
(02:06):
government is that play is anabsolute essential for children
outside school, but also inschool.
So I think Scotland is way aheadof England in that way.
But we also know in England wehave the early years foundation
stage, which is the Naugh tofive children.
So children in their first yearor so of formal schooling where
(02:31):
play is embedded, butinterestingly play then
disappears.
From the regulatory body, whichin England is called Offstead,
England and Wales play justdisappears as something that's
looked at and required withinschools.
But of course, we know allschools have, sometimes they
(02:53):
call it a break time, sometimesthey call it a play time.
So yeah, we've got the outsideplay and we'll think about that.
What might that look like?
But as you said, how is playembedded within the life of the
indoor school that may involvethe aspects of learning, of
(03:14):
socialization, of being able totransition from one activity to
another and also do that bigtransition from inside to
outside and back in again, whichwe know many of the children
that we work with reallystruggle with.
They can be fairly regulated inthe classroom for, 20, 30
(03:38):
minutes to do a task.
But the transition time is thetime where things get really
wobbly for them.
So it's thinking about play inall its aspects.
Primary schools, which in thiscountry are generally four till
11 year olds.
Secondary schools sometimescalled high schools, generally
(04:00):
11 year olds to, well now 18,till 16.
Thinking about play in everyaspect of school right through
the education span.
Can I just
Philippa (04:12):
pick up on something?
We said Julie.
And that's only because I guessmy experience of parenting my
children maybe is not that theycan concentrate for 20 and 30
minutes in a lesson.
I think for some children, yeah,that's really difficult.
I agree.
Five minutes is a maximum amountof time for lots of different
(04:34):
reasons.
And we've talked in previousepisodes about children who
struggle just to be in theirbody just to sit or just to be
still.
Actually, 20 minutes is a reallylong time to be in your body.
But for some children, certainlyfor my child, sitting for 20
minutes was pretty muchimpossible.
And I have loads of funnystories I could tell you where,
(04:56):
the teachers have called me inand said, do you know what he's
doing today?
He was, lying on his back andshuffling around the floor.
But he always was listening.
If they said what have we beentalking about?
They would be able to answerexactly what they were talking
about.
They would be able to answer thequestion.
It wasn't that they weren'tlistening, it wasn't that they
were misbehaving, they justneeded to be occupied.
(05:21):
To be moving and play was areally, in my view, is a really
good way to be able to do that.
But the expectation is you sitin this seat and it's really
hard for me.
Do you know what I mean?
But for a kid it's impossible, Ithink sometimes.
Julie (05:39):
Absolutely.
And I think, in saying that sortof 20 or 30 minutes, that could
be 20 or 30 minutes ofconcentration.
But that doesn't, I'm notimplying that would be sitting
still with a pencil in my handat the desk, but I have realized
that is often the expectation,even for four year olds,
(05:59):
five-year-olds, which in otherparts of the world, they'd be
appalled at that.
We expect our four and five yearolds to be sat at a desk for,
20, 30 minutes potentially at atime, which we know
physiologically is very tricky.
Some children manage that andare very regulated in that, but
for most four or five year olds,their bodies are built to move.
(06:24):
But that doesn't mean, as yousaid, that they're not taking in
what's being shared, what'sbeing spoken about, what's being
presented or what they're ableto explore.
And I think even before we cameonto this call, Philippa, I was
saying I've got, if somebodycould see my desk, maybe I'll
need to do a photograph of mydesk as we are doing these
(06:46):
podcasts, because I've got mycoloring pencils, I've actually
got pastels out today.
I've got a few elastic bands.
I've got a ribbon I've got aruler.
I've got an old five pound notefrom Scotland that I keep
folding up.
For me, there's something abouthaving something in my hands,
(07:09):
what somebody else would callfiddling.
Oh, I've got a lovely piece ofBlue Tech at the moment as well.
Doing something with my handsallows me to concentrate on you
and our conversation.
I wouldn't be able to do thispodcast sitting still.
It is not so much, I don't needto move my whole body.
(07:31):
So I'm sat on a chair with acouple of cushions.
I don't need, I feel I don'tneed to move my feet, but for
me, there's something about Ineed to move my hands in order
to focus.
And whether somebody would callthat fiddling a nonsense, I can
imagine if I, and I was doingthat at school that wouldn't
(07:53):
have gone down so well, but it'splaying, for me it's playing
with the items on the desk,which allows me to focus.
Philippa (08:04):
Yeah.
And I think, so I think there'sthat kind of needing to move ISN
there.
And for my child, that wassomething that was always
necessary.
And I was very lucky that mychild went to a very small
school that we could accommodatelots of these things and kinda
give some boundary to it.
They were allowed to move, theywere allowed to do things that,
(08:27):
if we were going into the halland doing the Chris Tingle
ceremony, they had three ChrisTingles because the first two
would've been demolished and theorange eaten and the sweets
flicked across the floor.
And you still wanted them tohave a Chris Ingle to take up.
So there'd be a third one that,you know.
And so I was very lucky and wehad a school and a school,
(08:48):
relationships with the teachersthat enabled that to happen.
I also think there's the otherchildren who maybe have
experienced early life trauma oradversity and those sorts of
things, and why the classroomthey are really hypervigilant
and really hyper aware and thenot being able to sit still is
because they are, their nervoussystem.
(09:12):
Is on high alert and they needto know what's going on.
And actually sitting still at adesk and concentrating on the
teacher can be really difficult.
It might be like we've talkedabout that their body just
needs, they just needs to movebecause I.
They haven't got the strengththat they need to sit for that
amount of time.
And so you can't beconcentrating and learning if
(09:34):
what you are trying to do ismake your body do something that
it literally can't do.
I think about it, it's likegoing to the gym and being on
the treadmill or lifting weightsand you are really at the end of
your capacity and knackered andsomebody says to you can, recite
the seven times table, you'd belike, really, mate, go and do
(09:56):
one.
I am just about to not die onthis treadmill, or whatever it
is.
And that's so there's that thingthat actually all their good
energy is being either to be intheir body or.
To make sure they're safe, thathypervigilance, that hyper
awareness, especially if you'vegot movement or people coming in
(10:18):
and out the classes or they canhear stuff in the corridor.
Actually, what that child isgonna be doing is concentrating
on those other things becausethey need to know that those
things aren't gonna come andkill them.
They're not gonna die.
So they're definitely not gonnabe listening to their phonics
or, how a volcano works or stufflike that.
(10:41):
'cause that's not the stuffthat's gonna keep them safe.
What is gonna keep them safe isknowing who's just about to walk
in the door and so children thenfidget and move and can't sit
still or go and hide or go andrun and all those sorts of
things.
And I often.
Work with schools and think withschools about how can we help
(11:02):
these children, whether they'relittle people in primary school,
high school's worse because youdo a lot more moving with a lot
more teachers, with a lot ofdifferent presentations.
And that being able to readsomebody's body language and
know what they're gonna be likeis really hard, especially when
you are hypervigilant and hyperaware.
(11:23):
And when you've got one classteacher, for most of the day, at
least you can settle in.
When you are changing every hourand a half, every two hours,
every time you walk in thatclassroom, you've got to
reassess how safe am I?
Am I gonna die today?
What is this gonna be like?
And like I say often then it'swith schools, it's thinking
(11:44):
about how can we help thesechildren, these young people, be
able to access learning in a waythat is.
Helps them in their body.
So whether it's that they needto move a bit more, whether, and
play can and play, I don't meanin the formal sense of going and
(12:05):
getting the cars out, just beingable to fidget.
Just being able to stand up,just gonna get a job, having a
job so that they actually canmove.
That actually, it doesn't makethem stand out.
They just go and take theregister to the office.
They just go and collect thepencil, give the pencils out.
How do we help children andyoung people reduce that hyper
(12:28):
vigilance?
Use the energy that they've gotto learn rather than to fit into
a system.
Does that make sense?
Julie (12:38):
I think that I, before I became a play therapist, I was
primary school teacher for along time, and there were lots
of children in that school.
Who were the children who reallystruggled to be able to fit in
with what, as a teacher I wasexpecting, and I think if I was
(12:59):
back in the classroom now, Iwould do things very
differently.
I've learned a lot more abouthow the body works, about how
the mind works, how the emotionswork, and I, almost asked
forgiveness of some of thosechildren.
I thought that I just didn'tunderstand what was going on.
So I'm very grateful for thelearning and the experiences of
(13:19):
other people that have reallyhelped me understand that.
But I do remember the sending,because sending a child to
another class or invite, sendinga child on a task rather than as
a punishment.
And this was a faith school, sowe had bibles in the school, and
a Bible is pretty heavy.
(13:40):
It's quite a thick book.
So if I had a fizzy child, achild that was rocking, swinging
about to explode, I would sendthem on a mission to take all
the bibles from our classroom tothe furthest away classroom.
But they had to take them insets of five.
(14:00):
So over half an hour, they wouldmove all these bibles up and
down stairs to the other side ofthe school and back again.
And it really did their musclesa lot of good.
It helped'em to concentrate andfocus.
They became much more regulated,gave the rest of the class a
(14:21):
break because this child'smovements were very distracting
course for me and the otherpupils.
And a task was completed.
Often I'd send them down toreception.
I'd have to go with a note tosay, I know you don't need
these, but can you please acceptthem?
A couple of days later, I'd sendthe same child to go and collect
(14:43):
all those Bibles.
Again, I think the child knewwhat was going on.
I knew what was going on, but itdidn't shame them.
It didn't send them out of theclass for being naughty.
And sometimes it was a usefultask, but, a sense of bringing
playfulness into how as a staffmember I might be able to help a
(15:05):
child and help myself and therest of the class manage a
situation that is getting a bitbubbly and just acknowledging,
gosh, it looks like your bodyneeds to do a lot of moving.
Oh, that's oh, could you bereally helpful?
All these Bibles need to go downto Mr.
So and and it would really, itmakes me smile now to think
(15:29):
about it.
The other thing is, you weretalking there about the very
hypervigilant child who needs tosit so they can see the door.
I think I've made the mistakeoften of having the child that
needed me to be close to me, butactually what they needed to be
is sat in the furthest corner ofthe classroom where they didn't
(15:53):
have their backs to anybody.
They could see the whole classand they could see the door.
They didn't need to be close tome.
They needed to be able to seeeverything.
And I remember one boy who was,he had a troubled start in life.
He was still living a verytroubled life.
He knew the entire timetable ofevery class in the school.
(16:18):
We would just have, I can stillremember his name.
I can still see him.
We would just have to ask him,oh where will year one be?
At the moment?
Oh, they'll just be coming infor break.
But then they've got maths.
He, because he kept such an eyeon everything, I think for his
own safety.
But again, we would use that assomething helpful.
(16:41):
Oh.
Oh, I wanna send, where wouldthey be at the moment?
But he knew the entire timetableas a whole school.
Philippa (16:48):
And that's hard work though, isn't it?
Because you've got thosechildren who need to kinda see
the whole thing and then you'vegot the children who need to be
really close and sit at thefront where they need the
teacher to, touch their shoulderwhen they're talking so that
they feel connected and groundedand safe.
Yes.
That they need, to hold theteacher's blue ack or to hold
(17:08):
the teacher's board robberbecause that is that connection
with the their safe adult.
Yes.
It's the adult that keeps themsafe compared to the child who
sits and the survey, everything.
It's the child that's keepingthemselves safe.
Yeah.
And it's different for eachchild.
And it's thinking about how.
(17:28):
How do we incorporate that intothese very structured days?
Because, I dunno about you,Julie, but sometimes I, will see
a child after school, whetherthey're a teenager or a little
person, and they are exhausted.
They are absolutely exhausted bythis day at school because some
(17:52):
of them have been holding ittogether, so they haven't
exploded.
Some of them have been masking.
So they've got this really bigsmile on at school day that
says, I am great, I'm perfect.
I'm gonna do everything that youask me to.
But actually inside they're likea little swan and their anxiety
is so great and they're soworried about disappointing the
(18:13):
teacher or being disappointed totheir friends or failing try so
hard, and they mask all thesethings that when they come into
to therapy and also at home,it's like, whew, there's this
big explosion.
All these things that have beenheld in at school are out.
Or there's the opposite of that,the child or the young person
(18:35):
that just can't hold it inschool.
They don't wanna be misbehaving,they don't wanna be being
difficult.
But actually it's so hard forthem, it's so anxiety provoking.
They really don't know wherethey are or what they're
expected to do.
And they can't, even if theyknow they can't because their
brain isn't working'causethey're keeping themselves safe
or their body isn't working'cause it isn't working in that
(18:57):
way.
Or they're feeling, shamed orrejected.
Yeah.
So by the time they come intotherapy, it's ugh, I'm such a
bad person.
I've had this really bad day.
It's all my fault.
It's because I, there issomething wrong with me.
And actually there is nothingwrong with this kid.
It's just all these otherthings.
(19:18):
And that is so hard, and we seeit in therapy, but parents see
it at home, don't they?
That every day their child iscoming home and.
There's this dysregulation orthere's this collapse or
disconnect.
And that's really hard to dothat every day and see your
child in this level of distress.
(19:38):
And schools are saying no, he isgot to behave.
Or No, they are behaving.
There's no problems here.
Don't know what, you must behome.
Must be something you are doingat home.
Because actually here they'reperfectly fine.
They're achieving or he'sterrible, he's not gonna be able
to stay in this school.
And those just, it's just anoverwhelming, I just have so
(20:02):
much empathy for children andfamilies that are experiencing
this every day.
And for the teachers who aretrying stuff Yeah.
To get the children to tick abox that somebody else's put
there for them.
'cause they've got their ownpressures, haven't they?
Of this is what we are expectedto do.
(20:23):
Yeah.
Julie (20:24):
And I think there is that huge disconnect between the
passion and the desire for staffand teachers teaching
assistants.
Any, anybody who's in the, onthe school staff, the kitchen
staff, the caretaking staff.
The admin staff who want to havegood relationships with one
another and with the childrenand want to have good
(20:46):
relationships with the families.
But there are lots and lots ofpressures that mean that with 30
odd children in the classroomand budget pressures and ofsted
press pressures the curriculumpressures, it's so hard as a
member of staff.
(21:08):
To actually meet each child'sindividual needs or to even get
to know each child well enoughto know what's gonna suit them.
And I think it's a really hardplace to be.
I don't think I would like to beback in the classroom now.
It's about 12 years ago that Ileft.
But I, it's interesting when Iwas looking at the Scottish
(21:28):
government plan for play forchildren in Scotland, or play
for anybody actually inScotland, a huge part of it is
now embedding play within thetraining, initial training for
teachers
Philippa (21:44):
and
Julie (21:44):
putting play as a regular part of the professional
development training for staffwho've been teaching for many
years to look at the benefits ofplay.
Not just the amount of time achild might be outside in the
yard in the playground, butthinking about the different
(22:06):
types of play.
My memory of my teacher trainingwas if you can build in a sort
of playful activity in theteaching, then that's a good
thing.
So if I was teaching maths, butif you did it through something
through actually cutting up acake, then there's the
motivation.
'cause you get to eat the cake.
(22:27):
So there's this sort of learningthrough plate.
That's been around for a longtime.
But actually seeing the hugebenefit of genuine free play.
Genuine, you've got an hour andthese are the limits, a bit like
I might say in a therapysession.
(22:47):
These are the limits, these arethe boundaries.
Time boundaries where you can gonot hurting each other and so
on.
And just giving space forchildren and young people to be
free without a task, withoutanybody assessing it.
(23:08):
And I remember days where, I wasat a school where, yes, we did
the curriculum and we dideverything that we were meant to
do, but there was an ethos of,if you know it, it's okay to do
some other things.
So sometimes just in anafternoon, getting the art
(23:28):
materials out and lots ofdifferent sized bits of papers
from post-it notes or stamp sizeto the big A one sheets.
And each child could choose whatthey did.
And it was amazing whathappened.
And nothing went up on the wall.
(23:50):
Children didn't want to keep it,they didn't have to keep it,
they didn't have to talk aboutit.
They didn't have to share itwith anybody, but they were just
given time to see what happens.
And I think that sort of freeplay is very rare for children
either at home or at school.
So it could be, it's toostructured sometimes, the
(24:11):
teacher says, oh, you can play,but with this, and this, and you
must make a this or that.
And then we'll all look at it,we'll all discuss it.
To me, that's not quite play.
It is playfulness withineducation activity, but it's
where is that?
(24:31):
Let's just see what happens.
Type play.
Philippa (24:35):
And that's wonderful, isn't it?
And I guess for me that wouldbe, I would love that to just go
and mess and play and do thosesorts of things.
But there are some children thatwould be really scary for.
Yes, absolutely.
Terrifying that thought.
Yeah, that you could choosebecause you might choose the
wrong thing.
(24:55):
You might fail, you might breakit, you might disappoint.
That is really for somechildren.
And that in itself is a balance,isn't it?
And I guess it's knowing thechildren, if you've got enough
teaching staff in there, even intherapy, we know you have to get
(25:17):
to know your children, don'tyou?
You have to get to know how arethese children gonna be?
For some, you need very quiterigid structure, I would say,
where it's, this is what it'sgonna be.
We're gonna run it in this way,you are gonna get that tin, I'm
gonna get this tin.
And it's very fluid and veryrigid.
For other children, you can be alittle bit more fluid.
(25:40):
What the goal of the session is,and you can just take some
cotton balls in and a straw andkind of know that's what you're
gonna do, but you'll go withwhere the child is and be able
to flow a little bit more withthat.
I wonder about teachers.
Kind of capacity to be able todo that when you've got so many
(26:02):
children or even if a childneeds that, how you can give
that if there are four childrenthat need that or six children
that need that.
And that in itself can be reallyhard, can't it?
Is that the knowing and pitchingthese kind of things in the
right place.
'cause free play, like you say,is absolutely amazing and
(26:26):
important and children shouldreally be able and encouraged to
do that.
But it can be quite scary beingin this space.
And I wonder if some childrenneed that free play on their
own.
Julie (26:41):
Yes.
But it, you can be on your own.
This is the other thing I see inschool a lot.
You can be on your own, but inthe presence of other people,
and for some children, they'lltake themselves into a small
corner or sit under a table anddo their own private thing
without anybody else needing tolook.
(27:04):
Because as you said, that isscary or it's the sort of scary
that's it's less than scary.
It's because it's new.
I've never, I don't know whatI'm gonna do.
I don't know what's gonna comeout, so I don't want anybody
looking as I do it.
Absolutely.
I think that it the sense ofbuilding my knowledge of myself
(27:27):
when I have a non-directed task.
Yeah,
Philippa (27:33):
huge.
I just wanted to come back tothat difference between being
new and being scared.
Those are slightly different.
Aren't, there's one's about,it's new and I dunno what's
gonna come out.
And that in itself is a littlebit scary, a little bit anxious,
but it's not overwhelming, isit?
It's not a feeling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whereas I suppose what I wonderis there is those children where
(27:56):
they've had, trauma backgrounds,adversity, they, or they might
still be living in it where theyare belittled or there is no
emotional scaffolding where theyare scapegoated or blamed and
therefore doing things isfrightening for them.
And I think we, I think, yeah,we did, I think in episode four
(28:19):
we talked about play.
Being frightening and what thatwas around, because that kind of
play, that kind of free play is,I'm gonna disappoint and
somebody is gonna shame me.
Somebody is gonna belittle merather than I'm a little bit
anxious about.
Maybe I can't do it.
Maybe I they're different,aren't they?
One is, like you say, developinga sense of who you are and what
(28:41):
you can and can't do.
And it may be that you arerubbish at drawing, but that's
a, you'll be able to be okaywith that.
Whereas the other one is, it'sall my fault and I'm bad, and
that's because I'm a terrible,bad person that I can't draw
this picture.
Or per and they're slight,they're different in the
(29:02):
internalization of those things
Julie (29:05):
and they, so yes.
Nervousness one, I would callnewness and nervousness.
We are built to be nervous ofnew things.
You've said that you are gonnabe learning a new skill soon,
and you'll be nervous aboutthat.
Excited and nervousness can feelthe same, but yes.
And then there's the absolutefear, terror shut down because
(29:32):
of past experiences that havesaid, I, as you said, I'm bad at
this and somebody is potentiallygonna shout at me.
Tell me off.
Somebody's going to.
Rubbish what I've done andselect
Philippa (29:46):
or withdraw their relationship from it.
'cause I think that's anotherbig thing.
'cause for children in school,they need to, for some children
who've had these experiences,they need to be pleasing the
teacher, which is why you seelots of that masking because
their fear is, if I disappointthat person, they're gonna
(30:07):
withdraw that relationship fromme.
They're gonna withdraw theirattachment, and I rely on that
person to meet my needs.
Yeah.
And that disappointment willmean that they are going to not
like me anymore.
To not smile at me anymore, tonot let me lunch anymore.
And I know all of that's nottrue, but that's not what the
(30:29):
internalization of the child is.
Julie (30:33):
Yeah.
So there's the.
The relationship where, as yousaid, it's about keeping the
other close and we knowknowledge of attachment theory
and others it's aboutrelationship is about what do I
need to do to keep thisrelationship going and keep my
secure person close to me.
(30:55):
But also there are relationshipswithin schools where it appears
that the child is doingeverything to reject everything,
to make life difficult for theirpotential secure basis.
And that's much harder for thestaff member to understand
because it's physically can bevery hurtful.
(31:18):
There are children who kick,bite, scratch.
There are staff who end theirweak, with injuries, with
plasters on their legs and theirhands because a child has
attacked.
And that's very frightening forthe staff member as well as for
the child.
So that's much more tricky tothink about is how to use
(31:40):
playfulness.
And I don't mean sitting downand playing a game, but just
being curious and playful in ourminds about what is going on for
that child that caused thatattack.
What is it that maybe I did?
What is it that was in theenvironment?
What is it that happened threedays ago that is still exploding
(32:02):
for that child?
But I've not noticed.
And that is really, I don't havea solution or a let's do this.
I don't have a solution forthis.
But even just to notice it'soften not an explosion from a
child is often not about whathas just happened.
Often we'll say to the child,oh, what happened?
(32:23):
What's made you so upset?
What made you bite Mr.
But often, the child won't knowthat.
But physiologically it couldoften be something that's
happened days before or yearsbefore.
But somehow a little hint ofthat has emerged again in that
moment with Mr.
So andSo, and that's caused thathuge fear response of attack.
Philippa (32:48):
And I think there's things isn't there, like when
children are on the playgroundthere's a lot of that play would
be free play as opposed toschools would say as well.
They have these breaks atlunchtime, definitely in the
morning.
Some do in the afternoon, somedon't.
Depends on the school.
They've got this free play.
Even when it's wet play, they'vegot free play.
(33:09):
But that in itself is reallyhard because.
For some children, they've gotto negotiate peer relationships,
and that is if we thinking, Ithink you've talked about in
several, there's Maslow'shierarchy of need.
Actually these peer socialrelationships quite high up,
(33:30):
don't they?
You need quite a lot offoundations before you get to
actually, let's be able toengage in this peer
relationship.
But if you're not feeling safe,so you are the child whose
little nervous system is alwayson the lookout of, who's coming,
where's it going, what'shappening?
The shouting, the noise, theballs rolling around all can be
(33:51):
fear response.
Then you've got, am I going toget any food when I get home
tonight?
Am I gonna have a bed to sleepin?
Is there gonna be an adult therethat's gonna look after me?
Am I gonna be safe when I gethome?
You've got all those sorts ofthings.
I remember working when I firstdid my social work training, I
worked with teenagers, actually.
(34:13):
They were doing their GCSEs andI worked with this one lad.
Honestly, he was just amazing.
He was an absolutely amazingyoung man and, he was so clever.
Absolutely.
Like naturally intelligent.
He just was the most, honestly,he was amazing.
(34:34):
He was a lovely lad.
He'd had lots and lots ofdifferent foster placements,
lots of different things likethat and, he was super, super
clever.
I used the project to try andhelp them attain GCSEs.
It was in a place called SouthOxy in North London.
We used to do it in differentways.
So these were playful ways.
(34:55):
I would sit in McDonald's and domaths, or they would wash my car
with me.
it wasn't slave labor, but itwas a way that they could do
things.
And still learn.
So we would do mass washing,washing my car, we'd sit on, and
watch football match schoolfootball or something like that.
(35:16):
But I remember saying to thisyoung man what is it about
school?
Because he actually, he reallywanted to learn.
He wanted knowledge.
He, it wasn't that he rejectedit, it wasn't that he knew he
was clever.
So I did, I said to him what isit that stops you from going to
school?
And what he said was, and thishas stayed with me forever
(35:37):
really, is because it's quietand I have to sit there.
So all the things come back inmy head.
All the things obviously, Iwon't go into what those things
are, but really what he wassaying was, is because he has to
just sit and he can't be busyand he can't keep moving and he
can't distract himself by stuff.
All those negative experiences,all that trauma was an
(36:02):
opportunity to come back intohis head.
So he would say, how on earthcan I do algebra?
When what I'm thinking about isblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm never gonna do algebra quietbecause it opens the door for
all this past experience to comeinside.
So what the school saw was thisnaughty, disobedient,
(36:26):
aggressive, violent kid.
And he was excluded until he wasin this project.
Whereas actually what he was akid who was.
Trying his best to be in aclassroom and fight all these
years of demons, who was superintelligent, who had super
amount of potential.
But because he had to sit atthis desk and work in this way,
(36:49):
he couldn't access it, thelearning because it wasn't the
right environment.
But, and he got his GCSEs hedid, was, I won't tell the
story.
It was quite tricky.
But him and two others got theirGCSEs in and all, but they
learnt by washing cars, bysitting in McDonald's, by Trek,
(37:10):
walking.
So we would track, we would goand like I say, sit and watch
school football while we weredoing English.
And they got their GCSEs atdifferent levels, but they all
achieved it.
But none of it was traditionallyeducated.
They were ama absolutely amazingkids.
(37:30):
They must be probably in theirlate thirties now.
But yeah, and I suppose what I'msaying is that traditional style
of school, of being a having tosit is just doesn't fit when
you've, when you aren't feelingsafe, when you haven't got that
ma, which is where I started totalk about, wasn't it, that
(37:52):
Maslow's hierarchy of need.
If you are stuck at the bottom,how on earth are you ever gonna
get up to the top where you areopen enough to learn or engage
in peer relationships?
This used to just fight all thetime, but he fought all the time
because actually that was theway that got rid of those things
in his head.
And then he got sent home and sothen he didn't have to sit.
(38:14):
And that was, he just got sentoutta class and then he was
excluded from school.
And so the cycle began, but whywouldn't you?
If that was us, we wouldn't doany different, would we?
Because how would you survivethat when you are a kid, when
you are 14, 13, and what youremember and what you are
feeling is all those horrendousthings.
(38:35):
How do you do anything anydifferent?
Julie (38:38):
I'm thinking of a very different child who, she was 11
when I'm thinking about this.
Who had, as you said, herMaslow's hierarchy of needs were
not always met.
She wasn't always fed, shewasn't always treated well.
There wasn't always an adult inthe home.
She had quite a tricky journeyto and from school.
(39:01):
We suspected there was physicalpunishment going on at home,
quite brutal physicalpunishment.
But actually the way she managedthat, the way her brain and body
worked is when she came intoschool, she wasn't masking, but
she switched off home.
She switched off anything to dowith her family, and there was,
(39:25):
she was the oldest and therewere several other siblings, and
she was able to learn andachieve brilliantly.
I taught music in the school fora while.
She learned a musicalinstrument.
She had friends, she played, shecompleted all her work.
She was a high achiever.
(39:48):
And I remember when we becameaware of some of the stuff that
was going on at home, trying toopen a conversation with her
about that.
Or I hear from dad that this hashappened, or I hear that mom's
been living in another countryfor a long while.
We weren't aware of that andthat you've often been looking
after your siblings and da.
She was just, and she was veryclear.
(40:08):
Don't talk about that stuff inschool.
School is my safe place.
I don't want any of that to comeinto school.
So there was also, there's alsothat capacity.
You have your young man, Shaneand this young girl, she had
found her way around it byabsolutely cutting off
(40:29):
everything that was, a adversestuff that was continually
happening at home.
She had managed to create thisoff switch.
And totally focused on school.
Her friendships, her learninguntil three 30 and then it all
got switched off again.
Holidays, breaks from schoolwere really tricky for her
(40:50):
because she didn't get thatbreak, but her mind and body
were able to do a switch on anda switch off.
So it's, I suppose that'ssomething I'm becoming more and
more aware of, as I'm teachingtherapy to students and thinking
about my own referrals that comeis not presuming that because
(41:11):
something is happening at homeor has happened in their lives,
that certain things will happenlater on in life.
So not presuming if a child hasexperienced trauma, abuse,
neglect.
That there will be certainoutcomes afterwards.
Because the hugely interestingthing about human beings is we
(41:35):
all react differently.
We all respond to thingsdifferently.
And so in school, I think goingback to schools and play,
sometimes we will, I might knowabout a child who, on paper
there is nothing adverse goingon.
Child is living with twoparents, child is living in a
(41:56):
permanent home, child is clearlyfed, watered, clothed, goes on
holiday, parents are working,there's a social life.
And yet that child is reallypoor of spirit in school.
They're a really collapsedchild.
Or they just were talking aboutnervousness earlier on, will
(42:16):
find it so difficult to even tryto do something.
And yet they wouldn't meet anyof the criteria for adverse
childhood experiences.
And yet that child could be veryneedy in school.
And that can be very confusingfor staff because it is not
matching up.
(42:37):
But somehow that child'sexperience of themself has been
really not able to developsomehow.
Philippa (42:45):
And I guess that's because we don't always know
what's going on, do we?
We don't know.
'cause sometimes you might haveall your physical needs met, but
your emotional needs are lackingand we don't know what that is
like.
And that's not, again, aboutsaying parents aren't doing
their best, but we don't knowwhat.
The parental situation iswhether there is, depression,
(43:07):
mental health, parents workingaway.
There's lots, I guess we don'talways know, but I suppose what
I think is that Children,really, they don't want to be
getting into trouble they don'twant to be misbehaving.
They don't want to be the kidthat the other kids don't want
to play with or move away fromor are scared of.
(43:28):
They don't want that.
And if that's happening, thereis an underlying reason for it.
Even if it's not obvious or evenif we don't know.
And it's thinking about how dowe work differently with that
project.
I know it's a, it's an extremeone, but there was ways to help
these young people learn.
(43:48):
It just wasn't in a traditionalway.
They did learn.
They had the capacity to learn.
If they weren't in thatenvironment for other children
like yours, it might be thatthey need lots of structure.
They need that one adult in thatschool that has that
relationship with them that theyfeel within that school.
This isn't, this is a safeplace.
(44:09):
This person gets me.
I'm gonna be fed, I'm gonna.
Have my needs met.
And I know I'm safe here.
So I can learn here.
And, but it's stillunderstanding those things.
And then understanding, I thinkthe other things is things like
Mother's Day, father's Day,grandparents' Day.
All schools do those.
(44:29):
And I know that we try andsoften it now, but those can be
really hard for children, evenchildren in birth families
because you don't know whattheir family's you don't know
what, what's going on.
And I suppose it's not aboutchanging those, I'm not saying
that we should never do anythingand everything should be blanket
and wide, but it is aboutactually.
(44:51):
Life is shades of gray, isn'tit?
And how do we have a spectrum ofthose sorts of things?
Do we have to have Mother's Dayor can we have an adult day?
Is there some way that actuallywe can think about, there's more
than this narrow band that wefit in.
(45:12):
So we don't always have to sitat a desk for my son, he
actually had a square, and thatwas, there was a desk within the
square, but he could stand, hecould sit, he could lie, he
could roll, he could do whateverwant, but within this square, so
that there was a boundary to it.
Falling under the teacher's deskand fiddling with her feet and
(45:33):
her shoes, when she was tryingto teach or whatever it was, but
he didn't have to.
Sit at a desk.
So is the ways you know, isthere, a carpet, do they have to
sit crosslegged on a carpet orcan they lie on their side?
Can they roll around in thebeanbags?
Can they, sure.
Like with teenager, I, I workedwith, he got very dysregulated
(45:57):
and food regulated him.
So he used to take Jacob'scrackers and put them in his
locker.
So we were, he wasn't gonna haveall these nice, sweet treats.
Because then he would always begoing out, but.
When he got a little bitdysregulated, he could go out
and go to the lockers and eat aJacob's cracker.
And that with the crunchinessand the feeling of being
nurtured of the crackers and thelittle smiley face that his
(46:20):
carer had put on the Jacob'scrackers was enough to kinda
regulate him back again.
And then you could go back inand carry on and nobody
bothered.
And look, I think, when I workwith schools, often teachers
will say, but if we do it forthem, we'll have to do it for
everybody.
And that is just not true.
(46:41):
I'll just tell you one more.
There was a nursery I workedwith and there was a little lad
who'd, he was with his mom, andhe'd lived in a household of
where there was quitesignificant domestic violence.
He was four, so he was in thekind of the preschool bit just
before year one.
Lunchtime was horrendous.
He just screamed, he kicked, hethrew things, all these sorts of
(47:03):
things because he wanted hisdessert first.
So I said let him have hisdessert first.
And they were like no, becauseeverybody will want their
dessert first.
And so the conversation I hadwas this little boy doesn't
think there's gonna be anydessert left.
That's why he is kicking off.
That's why he is worrying.
(47:23):
He thinks he's gonna have hisdinner.
He eats quite slowly so there'snot gonna be any dessert left.
Because that's been hisexperience that he hasn't got
these things.
He hasn't had his internet.
So he needs his costed.
It was particularly costed.
He needs his costed first so heknows he's had his costed and
then he'll eat his dinner.
And I said to them, my get betis that all these other children
(47:48):
have be lived in a house wherethey're not worrying about
costed and they know that thestructure of lunchtime is main
meal pudding.
And they're not gonna, theymight think, oh, he's own his
coed first, but they are goingto eat their dinner and then
they're gonna have their custard'cause they're not gonna think,
oh, such and such is at all thecustard.
'cause they trust that you'vegot enough SD for everybody.
(48:12):
He doesn't trust that you've gotenough SD for everybody.
And that is the difference.
Let's just try it.
And anyway, they gave him hiscosted first and it worked.
He had his coed and then he hadhis dinner and none of the other
children asked for the costedfirst.
'cause they all thought it wasodd having your costed first.
'cause you always have yourdinner first.
And so they didn't even thinkand need to have a costed first.
(48:35):
They just at their meal and theytrusted, there'd be enough
pudding.
He would thought differently.
He thought there wouldn't beenough pudding.
And then, yeah, so then he hadhis pudding first.
And I'm not saying it's alwaysthat simple, but sometimes we,
it's what does this mean forthis kid?
Can we do something different?
(48:56):
Yeah.
Julie (48:57):
And that takes us back to that kind of word.
The concept of equality.
Equality doesn't mean treatingeverybody exactly the same.
It's about equally meetingeverybody's needs.
Paying attention to everybody'sneeds, giving everybody equal
care and attention andprovision.
(49:18):
That's equality.
Not giving everybody exactly thesame thing.
And I think, the children I'veworked with both as a teacher
and as a therapist, get thatcompletely.
We had a hearing impaired childin the classroom, so that child
needed to wear a lanyard aroundtheir I wore a lanyard around my
(49:39):
neck and that child had hearingaids and a little sort of
battery pack in their pocket.
It wasn't that every child thenin the class wanted to have the
equipment that child had.
They recognized that child had ahearing impairment.
They understood that if they orI spoke, they had to wear this
(50:00):
lanyard, which had a microphonein it.
And we all learn a lot abouthearing impairment and
technology and facilities.
So absolutely I've very rarelycome across a situation of a
child saying that's unfair.
He gets to lie on his tummy todo his maths work.
Everybody needs to lie on theirtummies.
(50:22):
Children understand very quicklythat their friends, their peers,
others in their class havedifferent needs.
And I think the more we can talkabout that and the more that we
can introduce child or learnfrom children about how
accepting they are ofdifference, the better.
I think that view often comesfrom staff that if we do that
(50:45):
for one child, the law wantthat.
Philippa (50:47):
And also the worry that parents will think'cause
the other thing for me is ifthey all wanted the cu first.
So what do that would be myview.
And I mean they didn't, but, soif you eat your custard before
you eat your mashed potatoes, aslong as you are having a
balanced, healthy dietthroughout the day, really what
difference does it make?
(51:08):
And that's a whole differentconversation.
But I do wonder if, some of thepressures for teachers come from
one, the system that they're inand two.
That they may feel that parents'expecta about parents'
expectations about, I knowthere's this kid in your class.
But again, I think if we havethese conversations, if we talk
(51:30):
about it, if we understand it,the lad who goes out and eat his
joke crackers, it's not it inanybody.
It's not making it anydifferent.
But actually he's improving theclass in many ways.
'cause if he doesn't go out andeat his Jacob's crackers, he's
just gonna disrupt it.
He is just gonna keep asking forthe teacher's attention.
So actually the children in theclass benefit more from him
(51:51):
having that difference and if hehas to be the same.
And I think it's just aboutthinking about kids are tally
us.
I have a need.
And we are the adults.
And our job is to think aboutwhat is that need and how do we
meet it?
And a need is different than awant.
(52:12):
I wanna play my Xbox is verydifferent than I need to move,
and those sorts of things.
Sometimes kids do need to playthe Xbox, but I suppose there's
a difference between a need anda want.
If a kid has got a need, surelyour job as an adult is to think
about, okay, what is that need?
How do we help you meet thatneed with us, rather than having
(52:33):
to explode?
Because if a kid can't be in aclassroom, because it's really
hard for them, eventuallythey're not gonna be in the
classroom.
They're either gonna do it bygoing and getting the Jacob
crackers, or they're gonna doingit by chipping the table and
effing at the teacher one way oranother.
That kid is leaving theclassroom.
Let's do it in the way that ishelpful for everybody and
(52:56):
doesn't erode self-esteem.
Erode, self-view.
Julie (53:02):
And Phil, it's really interesting.
I know we're probably coming toan end fairly soon, but we've
started thinking about play andschools and thinking about the
provision of play and schools.
But actually what we've ended upcoming towards more is about how
the staff or the adults in theschool the adult staff in the
(53:26):
school can use their ownresources for playfulness in
thinking about how to meet theneeds of a child, and also
tuning into what the child'sbody is already doing.
Or their lips or their hands arealready doing and seeing if that
can be facilitated in a playful,accepting way rather than trying
(53:49):
to squash the child into theschool box.
So we've, yeah.
So we've gone on a bit of ajourney from thinking about how
children might play in a schooland being in the playground and
playing in the classroom and soon.
But actually, we are beginningto think now about how a playful
accepting attitude can bedeveloped in a classroom that,
(54:15):
as you said, meets the need, notthe want, the need of a child to
stay within the system and staywithin the peer group.
But can we do that in a playfulway?
That keeps us all thinking andreflecting and being creative
(54:35):
rather than, what are the rules?
Let me stick that child into therules, because that's when the
explosion happens.
So if it involves, I've got ayoung girl that I'm working with
at the moment, and she goes toschool every day with two
handkerchiefs, one with each ofher parents' perfumes on them.
(54:55):
And she's allowed she has thatin her bag and as she leaves,
she comes to my house fortherapy.
As she leaves the therapysession, we have a ritual of
food.
There's a lot of food in thesession.
There's a lot of food leavingthe sessions.
And one of the ways for her toleave and make the transition
from therapy and a good hour'sjourney across London to go back
(55:19):
to school when she enters backinto school at lunchtime, it's a
tricky transition, is I have tofill her pockets.
With dried mango, and she letsme know which order to fill
those pockets, and then sheleaves my house eating.
And that's not in any of theplay therapy books.
It's not one of the normal,wouldn't normally have food in a
(55:41):
therapy session.
But for this child that meetsher need, and as you said, it's
not harming anyone, dried mangoin her pockets.
Mom brings a bag of dried mangoevery couple of weeks, and I
keep it in my house and it'swhat we do.
And I know at school she hasbiscuit breaks, she has mango
(56:04):
breaks.
It's really recognized in herschool that's what this little
one needs.
And she's thriving academicallybecause her physical needs are
being met.
Philippa (56:16):
that attachment needs, it's that it's emotional as
well.
It's that this adult keeps mesafe.
This adult is connected to me,this adult understands me.
And that's what those things areabout, isn't it?
It's about, again, when we arethinking about the needs of
children, it's that very firstbit of I am safe, I'm connected,
(56:37):
I'm attuned to, and that's whatwe need.
And when we are doing any ofthese things, that's the bit
we're eating.
It's not, we know that the kidis eating the Jacobs crackers or
the younger or the mango.
They're not hungry.
They've had enough food.
It's not about hunger.
This is about connection.
It's about nurture.
It's about we are present withyou and you can take something
(56:58):
from this environment into thisenvironment.
The smiley face on the Jacobcrackers said to the lad that's
leaving.
I'm still thinking about you.
I'm still present.
I'm still here.
Even though you are not still,you are not with me.
I'm still looking after you.
I am your parent.
And that's what that the Jacob'scrackers and the Somali face
were not that he's hungry.
(57:19):
I guess it's the same with themango.
It's not that she's hungry, isthat the connection remains.
Julie (57:26):
It's about the connection, but it's also, I
think physiologically being ableto chew Yeah.
And to concentrate on that, tosalivate, to move her mouth
really does help to regulate herwhole body because she's
concentrating on her mouth.
And she's getting that.
Feedback from her mouth, whichis so important for her.
(57:50):
Less so having physical things.
I'm much more, I need physicalthings in my hands to have that
input from for her, it's hermouth.
But yeah, I think there's somuch playfulness that can be
present in a school.
And something we haven't touchedon and probably don't have time
(58:10):
to touch on today, is theplayfulness between adults in a
school and children seeing thatand children witnessing staff
having a bit of fun between eachother.
The way staff interact with oneanother.
The playfulness of sending theset of Bibles down to another
(58:32):
class when they're not reallyneeded.
Everybody knows what it's about,but let's still do it.
Keeping ourselves as the adultsin a school alive through play,
I think is crucial as well.
Just not to do with thechildren, but also having a big
impact on the children becausethey can witness how we are with
(58:56):
one another.
And I think that lightens aschool very much.
It's not to be, throwing waterover each other at the school
fate and, having a big laugh,but just the way staff can
interact with one another in aroom.
I think children can really pickthat up as, ah, okay, this is
(59:17):
another way of being.
Philippa (59:19):
Absolutely.
But I think it's a place we needto stop now, Julie.
And that's maybe something thatwe could come on to because I
think that I.
Also works in schools.
It works with parents, it worksin therapy, really, that, how as
adults with the parent and thetherapist how we use playfulness
there.
So that's probably a goodepisode to do later on in the
(59:44):
year.
Julie (59:45):
Go play in the workplace.
Yeah, play at work.
You could do a whole load onthere.
Philippa (59:52):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode
of Pond Dream Play and Therapy.
As usual, if you've enjoyed thisepisode, please hit a subscribe,
follow to our Facebook page andwe will see you next time.
Thank you.
Bye.
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