July 25, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of 'Pondering Play and Therapy,' host Philippa interviews Angela Griffith, a registered social worker and independent social care consultant with over 30 years of experience in children's social care. Angela discusses her journey in the sector, beginning in 1991, and the changes she has observed over the years. Angela highlights the importance of strong management in children's homes, the diverse services offered, and the system's need for better integration of children's voices. She emphasises relationship-based practice, restorative practices, and the need for emotionally resilient staff. Angela also talks about her consultancy, Children’s Homes Improvement Limited, which provides training, supervision, and strategic support to improve outcomes in the care sector. The conversation covers the challenges and opportunities in residential care, advocating for a child-centred approach that prioritises the involvement and empowerment of young people.
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Philippa (00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
(00:03):
Therapy with me Philippa.
And this week my guest is AngelaGriffith and she is a registered
social worker and independentsocial care consultant.
She has over 30 years ofexperience in the field of
children's social care.
She works with children's homes,organizations, and local
(00:27):
authorities to provide them withtraining, coaching, and
consulting services that helpthem improve their practice.
Ensure safeguarding andevidence, the provision of high
quality care for children andyoung people.
In 2015, she founded Children'sHomes Improvement Limited, a
(00:48):
consultancy that offers bespokeand tailored support to meet the
diverse and complex needs of thesocial care sector.
Her mission is to support,empower, inspire, and
collaborate with individuals andteams to improve outcomes and
innovations in children's socialcare.
She also offers supervision,mentoring, training for those
(01:12):
who run and are responsible forchildren's homes so that they
are compliant with inspectionsand regulations.
Welcome Angela.
That's a lot you've got going onthere in your, life.
So you've been doing this forquite a while and built up quite
(01:33):
a lot of experience.
Angela (01:34):
Yes, that's right.
Philippa.
First, I'd like to thank you forinviting me on today.
It's very nice to speak withyou.
Yes, I've been working in thefield for quite a long time.
I started back in 1991 as awaking night worker in a local
authority children's home.
So I would say that I'veprobably done every job there is
(01:55):
in residential care, includingmanaging several homes in one
go, working with lots ofdifferent local authorities.
I did 10 years working in actionfor children.
Yeah, I suppose you can say thatmy career is quite diverse, but
all with children, really mainlywithin social care.
Philippa (02:15):
And I bet you've seen some changes over those 30
years.
Angela, from when you started towhere you are now
Angela (02:21):
Yeah, I, yeah.
It's fair to say I've seen somechanges.
When I first started inresidential care, there was no
inspection, there were noregulations, there was very
little training.
Really, I think all we had wasthe initial rollout of the
Children Act 1989.
So the, we've had all theregulations and the inspections,
et cetera.
(02:42):
Unfortunately, I'd like to saythat I haven't seen as much
change as I would like to see interms of the support provided
for young people withinresidential care and some of the
outcomes that they stillstruggle with that's an issue.
I haven't seen as much change asI would like to have seen in
terms of children's servicesbeing needs led rather than
(03:03):
resource led, but I alsoappreciate that, money's not
infinite, but it's still anissue really.
And in these cash strap timesit's even more of an issue.
Philippa (03:14):
So if you've got people who don't really have any
experience of children who livein, homes where there's multiple
occupancy cared for with staffor I guess parents one, can you
explain what the purpose of themis and what is it?
When you're saying you haven'tseen as much change, can you
(03:36):
tell us a bit more about that?
Angela (03:37):
Yeah, so the purpose of a children's home is to provide
a safe and caring, nurturingenvironment for a child or young
person who's not living withintheir family home or living
within foster care.
Historically residential carewas always seen as the.
Of last resort, but for someyoung people it isn't a choice
(03:58):
of last resort.
It is an appropriate placementfor them to.
Quite interesting to think abouthow different it is to be in a
children's home rather than in afamily home or even in a foster
care placement.
There are different types ofchildren's homes which provide
different types of services.
(04:19):
You have somewhere young peoplelive and stay until they're 18.
And you have others where theygo and it's really quite short
term and it's an assessment orit's a pathway, it's part of
their journey back home or intoresident in, sorry, into foster
care or into supportedaccommodation should they reach
16.
(04:39):
There's a variety of differentpurposes of a children's home
and a variety of differentregistrations of children's
homes.
So you have some homes thatspecialize working with children
with mental health issues, somewith learning disabilities, some
with children who've got,challenging behavior and lots of
risks.
(04:59):
So there's a variety.
You've also had children's homesthat are offer short break and
respite care for children withdisabilities, or actually
sometimes.
In some cases for children whorequire a little bit of a break
from home to support them beingable to stay at home, whether
they don't have a disability ora mental health issue.
So it's quite diverse.
(05:21):
The, the estate of residentialis very diverse.
You also have.
Residential homes that are runby local authorities, and we've
seen a resurgence of that in thepast few years with additional
money being given for that and avery large private sector, which
we've also seen a lot of pressabout, particularly the ones
(05:42):
where.
They're the bigger companies andthere's issues around making
money outta that particularaspect of children's social
care.
So there's a lot of changescoming along with that.
And what I mean by not seeing asmany changes is that residential
care provides a good opportunityfor children to strive and work
(06:08):
towards better outcomes.
The quality of the residentialcare is good in the main.
There are some bad residentialhomes as there are bad foster
placements, as there are badwhatever.
The issue I have is actuallywith the system that supports
children in care, looked afterchildren, and how it's still
(06:30):
remains, in my view, to letchildren and young people down.
Where I've not seen as muchchange as I would like to see is
the actual involvement ofchildren and young people in
their own care.
We still have a system which isdoing to the child rather than
with the child.
And in doing that, actually inmy view, reduces the potential
(06:51):
to build the child's resiliencebecause as we all know.
The cornerstones of resilienceare self-esteem and
self-efficacy, and a child incare has very little
self-efficacy.
And decisions are often made notincluding them.
And we as adults, obviously weknow best.
And I'm not saying that we don'tin some circumstances, because,
(07:14):
risks have to be managed.
You can never eradicate a risk,you can only mitigate a risk.
But we also have to bringchildren and young people up to
live in the world in a safe way.
The bits that for me is aboutnot really involving the
children, not we have, we give alot of verbal time to saying
that we put the children first.
(07:34):
Unfortunately, I still see quitea lot of instances where it's
actually not about the child,it's about the resources and
it's about an adult's agendarather than a child's agenda and
what's best for the child.
And that's my opinion, that's myexperience.
This is quite a broad brush.
I'm saying.
I'm not saying there aren'tgood, services out there.
I'm not saying there aren't goodsocial care services or social
(07:56):
people who work as individualswithin the social care setting
who do.
Endeavor and strive to put youngpeople at the center of what
they do and do strive inendeavor to support them to take
an active part and controlwithin their care journey.
But unfortunately, I'm stillseeing too much of the latter.
Philippa (08:16):
And a lot of people, will watch things like.
Is it Tracy Beaker?
Angela (08:20):
Yep.
Philippa (08:20):
Where they live in a children's home.
And that in some way canglamorize.
Maybe.
What the experience is andbecause they're the children
from the bits that I've seen doseem to have a lot of autonomy
and a lot of a lot of control.
(08:41):
Or not control, but say in whatgoes on and they're responding
to, and then they can act out ifand repair the people in the
parental role Then rethinkwhat's going on and think, oh
yes we can hear you.
Is that a glamorized view thatisn't, I know I'm asking you a
question that I know the answerto, but I suppose lots of people
(09:02):
will have watched things likeTra Tracy Beaker and
Angela (09:05):
Yeah, I think there are elements in Tracy Beaker that
are right, and there are homeswhere.
That would be absolutely thecase where children are totally
and fully involved in whathappens in the home and how it
operates and having their wishesand feelings.
Within the children's homeregulations, there's a whole
standard on children's wishesand feelings, and there's a duty
(09:26):
and a legal obligation to takethose into consideration and to
listen to them and todemonstrate how you do those.
It's not so much the homes thatI have the issue with.
It's a wider system that I havethe issue with because whilst
homes are striving to do thatand are advocating on behalf of
their children and young people,the wider system sometimes works
(09:49):
against that.
So yeah there's an element ofglamorization around that.
I don't, it's not a truereflection of.
What happen in a home, living ina home can be quite traumatic to
a child on what, if you thinkabout that, have a of children
who.
Don't know each other have allgot their own trauma and issues
(10:13):
to deal with which in itself isdifficult.
And then they have to set aboutbuilding new relationships with
carers and staff and managementand other children within the
home, as well as dealing witheverything that's brought them
to that position in the firstplace as to where they're at.
It's can be quite overwhelming,I don't think it necessarily
reflects that there areelements.
(10:34):
Yeah, it, it probably reflectsan idealized approach of what we
would maybe want children'shomes to be.
Maybe or maybe not.
I can't say I've sat down andwatched every episode, but from
what you're saying, it sounds alittle bit idealized.
But it's the wider system thatfor me is the issue.
And don't get me wrong, thereare I go into homes.
(10:56):
And I see some absolutelyfabulous and fabulous practice
with children where they aretotally involved and I've seen,
and I get to watch the journeyof the child when they come into
the home and how they come inand how they change and develop
and.
To move on from the home, but Ialso go into homes where that is
(11:18):
not the case.
Yeah.
And I also go into homes wherethey, homes do fabulous work and
are continually fighting withthe wider system to advocate for
their children as a good parentwould do, as in being in loco
parentis.
But, it's the and within.
Again, within the children'shome, like I say, you've got the
whole standard on wishes andfeelings.
(11:40):
You have another regulation,which is called Regulation five,
where actually the home,including the manager, the
registered manager, are legallyobliged to advocate for a child
if they feel that any service atall.
Is not doing what is in the bestinterest of the child, whether
that be not providing them withthe appropriate healthcare or
(12:03):
not, giving them a access toeducation or whatever that might
be.
There's a legal obligation formanagers to escalate that within
the social care services, andit's really interesting how that
can then be perceived.
By the wider the wider sectorreally, particularly within
(12:25):
social services it can be seenas quite challenging and it's
almost what do residentialmanagers know?
They're not qualified socialworkers.
And there's still that.
And that's also some of thechange that I've still not yet
seen.
So when I first started inresidential, like I said, there
was no qualifications to.
(12:48):
But now you have to be, you haveto have a certain level of
qualification to be a worker oryou have to be working towards
that.
You have to have a certain levelof qualification to be a
manager, but that qualificationis not a social work degree.
They're not registered, they'renot required to be registered
social workers, unless of coursethey're in Scotland, where
actually everybody who works inresidential is required to do
(13:10):
the social work qualification,which is quite interesting.
And that in itself creates aalmost like a disempowerment for
managers in challenging thesystem.
Because, we as social workers,as one myself, as a registered
social worker, we know best, weknow all about somebody with a
lesser qualification,unfortunately, and again, I'm
using a broad brush and I'musing very much a broad brush.
(13:32):
But there is that they don't,they're not, they're qualified
to the level that we are, but sowe know best.
So if we're saying this isn't arisk or that is a risk, then it
is because we say so because.
The level and quality ofexperience that residential care
staff have and the knowledgethat they develop about the
(13:53):
children that they work with,who they're with 24 7 over a
period of time, and otherprofessionals might visit them
once a month.
Yeah, they have, they are thepeople with the relationship,
Philippa (14:05):
so just thinking about that relationship and thinking
about wishes and feelings andthings like that.
How is that balance?
Because.
I guess what I'm thinking isthat parents, people who maybe
aren't in.
This profession every day whenthey think you know about wishes
(14:28):
and feelings and listening tothe child, that they then get to
do whatever they want and it'sthey don't get to do that at
home.
They might wish to have or wantto have chocolate for breakfast,
but there's a boundary andthey're not having chocolate for
breakfast.
They're only having it once aday.
Or they might want to go toAlton Towers every.
Every weekend, but actuallythere's a boundary and they're
not going to, why shouldchildren or young people who are
(14:50):
cared away from home have morethan that?
They need boundaries.
They need structure that I'msaying this, that's, not
actually my view, but I'm justthink about if you are if you're
listening and sometimes thenewspapers and social media can
portray that.
Children in local authoritycare, or, get a lot more treats
(15:14):
without the boundaries in place.
So when you are talking aboutwishes and feelings, are you
talking about they, they canhave chocolate for breakfast if
they want to?
Angela (15:23):
Absolutely not.
I'm not talking about havingchocolate for breakfast.
I'm talking about ensuring thatthe child or young person feels
heard.
And listened to and involved, wecan all have wishes, whether
they are fulfilled is anothermatter, but we have the right to
articulate them.
And, even in a relationship, inan adult relationship, we like
(15:46):
to feel that we're listened to.
You are the person can stilldisagree with us, but we're
given the space to express whatit is that our view is.
That view is not compatiblewith, say, a risk, then that's a
conversation that the adultwould have with the child around
the risks around that.
(16:07):
And it becomes a negotiation, adiscussion, a compromise.
I firmly believe that anybodywho thinks they can tell a
teenager what to do, he is on alosing battle.
It's very difficult if you thinkback to when you were a
yourself, were a teenager.
Who could tell you what to doand why would you listen to
somebody you know?
Teenagers are in are interestingbeings and it's a way of working
(16:31):
with them that allows'em to feelpart of the conversation.
We all like to feel valued andeven as adults, even when we're
managed by people, we like tofeel valued.
We like to feel heard, we liketo feel listened to because that
makes us, it promotes our selfesteem.
So we're not talking about.
Just giving children what theywant when they want it.
(16:52):
It's about being heard.
It's about being listened tobecause the bigger picture
around that is it supports theirresilience and the development
of that, and that's what theyneed going out into the big wide
world, potentially more so whenthey're being in the care
system, because they potentiallywon't have that network around
them that our own children wouldhave when they step outside the
(17:13):
door,
Philippa (17:13):
so I'm guessing I'm just thinking about, when
teenagers are in, in, in theirfamily of origin or maybe in
foster care they do express, I'mjust gonna use an example.
I want to go, I want to go toJohnny's for a party on Saturday
night, and they're 40.
So they, they are allowed to dothat.
And as a parent, I guess we havethe autonomy to weigh the risk
(17:39):
that we think, okay, Johnny peJohnny's parents are gonna be
there.
They're gonna make sure there'sno alcohol.
He stay, he, he is, hadsleepovers there before, I'm
gonna collect him in themorning.
Yeah, of course you can.
Or the alternative of Johnny'sparents aren't there.
We know that.
You know that there is nocontrol over that.
We don't.
So actually, no, you can go fora few hours, but we're gonna
(18:02):
collect you.
You're not having a sleepover orno, you're not going at all.
So there's a, I suppose there'sthat the child can voice their
wish, their desire, which iswhat teenagers do.
They have a relationship, withtheir parent that says.
I hate you for not letting mego, but I know that you love me
(18:22):
and you're doing this, sothey'll begrudgingly accept it
because there's a relationshipthere.
And I suppose, I was justthinking this in for teenagers
in who are being cared for in,away from home, maybe in a
residential service that maybethe residential service.
This is what I think I'm hearingyou saying, doesn't always have
(18:46):
that autonomy to make the riskassessment.
So it's a blanket, we don't letkids stay out overnight or we
don't let, or that we do, but wehave to go through these million
steps and they've only, they'veasked us on Saturday morning and
see how happening on Saturdaynight and the residential
(19:06):
manager or whoever's leading.
The shift at the time doesn'thave the autonomy to say yes or
no, so the child or young personmisses out even if the person
would think actually, yeah, therisk is manageable.
The risk is okay.
It's developmentally appropriatejust like the parent would.
So it's that disconnect betweenbeing able to.
(19:29):
Hear a child and makeappropriate decisions, because
I'm guessing that then damagesthe relationship.
'cause it feels really unfair.
Yeah.
And it's unfair.
Angela (19:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're absolutely right.
I'll go to homes where, kidshave gone to festivals with
their friends in camped out andstuff like that.
But the process to get to that.
Got to go to the social worker,we've got to have this
conversation.
This risk assessment, got to dothis, got to do that.
You can't really respond in themoment unless there's a prior
agreement around it.
(20:01):
You've got the delegatedauthority to do that.
And then, and to be honest,Philippa, sometimes some of the
social workers that you know.
If, I've spoken with the child,they feel quite competent.
They've met the child that thethe child is gonna stay with or
whatever.
They've met the family, they'vedone the work, but then the
(20:22):
social worker says no, becausethe social worker themselves is
risk of birth and doesn't wantit coming back on them.
And this is why I'm saying aboutwhere's the child in this
decision and putting the childfirst.
Sometimes I say to a lot ofpeople.
Even just parents, to be honest.
When you're thinking about howyou're responding to a child,
(20:43):
particularly around risk, whoseneeds are being met in the
context of that, is it thatactually I don't wanna be
worried about this child, so I'mgonna say no, so then I can go
to sleep even as a parent and weall go through that, we all,
having a child myself, and it'sa very, it's very hard to.
(21:05):
Help them make money, takemanaged risks and hope for the
best.
But that, who's, whose needs arebeing met and how am I
supporting this child, my child,or a child within a, in, in, in
care, in residential, in fostercare, wherever, to take those
managed risks in order then tounderstand what risk is and be
able to manage it in the future.
(21:26):
And I talk to people a lot.
I do quite a bit of training andstuff, and I talk a bit about,
when we overprotect our childrenand what that is about and why
we do that.
Because actually, we I, thescenario that I tend to use is
when people say to me, no, mychild's not going to school.
I'm the public boss.
(21:46):
Because it's just not safe.
How long are you going.
What are you actually going toallow them on public transport?
Because when they turn 18,they'll be an adult.
Does that mean it's safe forthem to be on public transport
now that they are, they've gonefrom 17 or 16 to 18.
What skills have we enabled themto develop to notice risk and
(22:06):
manage risk and.
Be safe in the big wide worldbecause, you never, not a
parent.
Even when they're older, youstill can worry about them.
But I just think as a parent andI apply, would apply the same
things.
And when I talk to to staff atworking children's times, whose
needs are being met, what isthis about?
How are we best supporting thechild?
(22:28):
And that's what I mean aboutputting the child at the center.
And this is about the child.
Yeah.
I think that's really what I'mtalking about in terms of the
management of risk.
But you are right, it is, it canbe feel very unfair for children
who live in the care setting.
'cause they can't just randomlydecide to go and do something
(22:48):
and have it agreed of a weekend.
And I did when I worked forAction for Children, I did a
piece of work which is calledwhich.
Was done with young peoplearound keeping myself safe.
It's called the keeping myselfSafe Toolkit.
And that was done with youngpeople and it was all about them
enabling myself to keep safe.
(23:08):
And a lot the feedback was aboutI can't go to the beach'cause
they have to write a riskassessment if I go to the beach.
Who does that?
But because children's homes arealso registered.
And inspected.
You can get to position wherethey become that risk averse
that they don't want anything togo wrong.
So they'll just try anderadicate everything and you
(23:30):
can't eradicate everything.
Like I said, you just can't, andwe're not doing young people any
favors.
And it's also one of the thingsthat when I do work with homes.
When I see things in the homethat are set out against the
regulations or the standards,the quality standards.
And I'm like, what is the wrongway around?
Really, it's the wrong wayaround because that tells me you
(23:52):
are doing that so that you canpass your inspection.
Actually, we should be startingwith the child and working to
see where we are with that.
Does that make sense?
You can get, people can get intothat situation where they talk
about getting a good inspection.
I can't take this child, they'rerun away, that I won't get a
good inspection.
Children are children.
Children's homes could be veryrisky places.
(24:14):
Happen in children's homes.
It's what you do with whathappens that makes the
difference and how you managethat and how you demonstrate
that.
Actually, yes, that went wrongand this is what we've learned
about it.
And it's the same with childrenand young people.
Yeah.
You go out you've made amistake.
Let's learn from that mistake.
What would you do differentlynext time?
(24:36):
You sit down with them and to dotheir risk assessment.
So if you go out, how are yougoing to keep, what are you
gonna do to keep yourself safe?
That's what our job is.
My, as an adult with children,is to enable them to grow and to
live productively and safely inthe world.
Philippa (24:54):
Yeah that, that makes sense.
So how do you think, theresidential sector supports or
can support children because,and young people could because
they are usually in aresidential home for a reason.
There's a reason.
And some of those are because,they've got physical needs and
(25:16):
parents and that, that need abreak.
And I guess that's.
That's a clear objective, isn'tit?
That they're getting older,they're getting bigger, they
need more intense, they mightneed more socialization that
their parents can't give, andthey have respite, or they have,
that they need that moreprofessionalized care than they
(25:39):
can get at home.
We then, I guess got that theother part of that, which is
children that maybe have riskbehaviors or are challenging at
home, or maybe parents can'tkeep them safe or maybe they've
experienced, trauma, neglect,adversity within the family home
(26:01):
and they've, they need to becared for within the residential
sector.
What do, what would be a goodservice?
How does that look if you aregoing to support children in
these, the, these areas?
Angela (26:17):
Yeah, it's really, that's a really interesting,
given that the, the sector isquite diverse.
Yeah.
So for me, if I was to thinkabout a good home.
Yeah, whatever that might be.
For me it rises and falls on themanagement, number one.
Number one, you need a verygood, strong manager who is not
(26:42):
insecure in themselves, is veryopen to developing and
supporting their team to developis very resilient.
And child focused number one.
So I can go into homes and, youcan have a fabulous manager and
a team that's actually quite newand underdeveloped and you can
(27:02):
still have a really positivehome.
I've going to homes where you'veactually got quite a
longstanding experience team andthe manager is displaying things
of, levels of insecurity andmicromanagement and risk.
The home will not be as good.
Yeah.
It falls and dies on themanagement really.
(27:23):
So that's number one.
Yeah.
And then you've got theenvironment being conducive to
nurturing and warm.
And that doesn't mean it has tobe flashy and it has to be
polish.
It has to be clean, it has to betidy.
It has to be I walk intochildren's homes and I can get
an immediate feel for the home.
(27:43):
You know what it feels like.
Does it feel warm?
Does it feel welcoming?
Just as something as silly aswould you like a drink when you
come in, oh, nice to see you, orwhatever.
Because they're greeting me likethat.
That's how they're areinteracting with the children.
Conversely, I've got into homeswhere, or they're signing in
book and the member of staff'swalking around with their coat
on, who walks around the housewith a coat on I'm cold.
(28:05):
Put a cardigan on.
It's a house.
This is a home.
It's a child's home.
It needs to feel like a.
Is to feel warm and welcoming.
And then you've got the staffthemselves and how they interact
with the children and youngpeople.
And you can tell a lot just fromthat interaction, whether it's
warm, whether it's supportive,whether it's an element of
(28:27):
humor, whether there's, andagain, within the regulations
and the quality standards as awhole standard on positive
relationships.
Because let's be clear, nomatter what you do, no matter
how you work or how youpractice, or whatever
methodology you want to adopt,working with children, young
people, whether that's DDP, paceor any other of these.
(28:49):
Models that you can use.
It all comes down to the qualityof the relationship you have
with the person you are doing itwith.
And that's proven withinresearch, so those relationships
are absolutely the key mechanismfor everything.
So I'm a firm believer inrelationship based practice as
above anything else.
(29:09):
Yeah, you build thatrelationship and it's positive,
then you can have thoseconversations with a child.
That might be difficult.
You have a build a positiverelationship where the young
person knows that you, they cantrust you in terms of you do
what you say you're gonna do.
You are not disingenuous, youare not saying stuff just to
(29:30):
appease them.
You're firm consistent, butyou're fair.
You get what you see what youget, you they're saying that
builds positive relationships.
And when the child is in, in aposition where it's having
difficulty and having challengesand whatever that relationship
can be, the difference betweentalking to the child or young
person and bringing them down oractually saying something that's
(29:52):
gonna further escalate them.
So the relationships aremassively important.
You can't do any work or inputwithout the relationship.
Also, it's how staff talk aboutthe children.
Are they talking about them?
Just, not when the children arethere.
Are they talking about them in anegative way?
(30:13):
Are they focusing on thenegative language or are they
focusing on the positive?
Language, and it's a bit likechildren as well.
It's a bit like, when you hearsomebody say, oh, my child's
been a proper little thismorning, but actually, has the
child been a proper little thismorning?
Or have you just had a difficultday?
It's okay to have a difficultday, it's fine, but we often
(30:35):
externalize how we're feelingand make it the child's issue.
And that's something that Ithink society does to us as
adults because we have to beseen as really good parents.
We have to be seen as goodparents.
And it's not acceptable not tobe good parent, but actually
that's why it goes back to whatI said before about whose needs
are being met, putting the childfirst, so some of those elements
(30:58):
in terms of good care that thechild is.
I can, that when I speak to thechild, they are able to
articulate they wishes andfeelings to me.
I went to a home and I was justtalking to the people this
morning.
I went to a home the other dayand the girl was absolutely
fabulous.
Fabulous.
She was, they've got some thingsthey need to address, but she
(31:19):
told them, she knew exactly whatthey didn't need me to go in to
be a consultant, to tell them.
She'd been in the care system along time.
She was telling everything thatthey needed to do because we
often forget that children seeand hear things.
Staff have conversations andthey think the children don't
know.
If I want to know what'shappening in a home, I go talk
(31:40):
to the children.
If I want to know which memberof staff, is it a bad mood or
who likes who, I go speak forchildren, but it's adults, we
forget.
It's almost like that thing weforget that they can hear, they
can feel, when a member of staffwalks into into the home, a
child can tell they're in moodor bad mood.
It's palpable.
(32:02):
And that's why we have to giveconsideration to what we take
into a home as adult workers.
Yeah, so those are some of theissues I would say would be a
good time.
I could go on about all sorts ofother things, but from a I think
from a relationship based pointand a personal point of view in
terms of those relationships,it's absolutely key.
(32:25):
That's when it's going todescend even more.
And I'm not saying that in ahome where there are good
positive relationships, there'snot going to be extremely
challenging times because thereare, because we're dealing with
children who've got lots oftrauma and are trying to
challenge and they're going on ajourney themselves.
Like I saying, the whole thingabout under the home understands
(32:46):
trauma.
They understand that.
You can have a fabulous day witha young person, absolutely
fabulous day.
And you can come back and therecan be a massive incident that
night.
And that can be for a variety ofdifferent reasons.
It was too much of a good day.
They had too much of a good dayand they weren't with their
parents.
(33:06):
They actually liked you as amember of staff, so they're
gonna target you becauseactually they don't trust, they
don't know how much you, theycan trust you or their
experience of relationships isthat.
If they get to another adult,like adults, the relationships
are broken.
So I'm gonna test, I'm gonnabreak that first so you can do
that to, I'm gonna have that,just the basic stuff in terms of
(33:28):
trauma and understanding thatand having a resilient,
emotionally resilient team.
Philippa (33:37):
Yeah.
Do you think we talked aboutrelationships, that is the key,
that this podcast is all aboutrelationships and how we have
those and how the effectors andall those sorts of things do you
think play.
Or playfulness within children'shomes plays a part.
(33:59):
Can staff be playful and playand use play?
Angela (34:02):
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That most, most definitely.
The way which play used orplayfulness, should I say,
depends on the young person.
And you know what?
I've got homes where they've hadseven year olds in.
And I go, and I, even as avisitor, I've got one home, I
think, was she seven or eight ormaybe even nine, I don't know.
But she was very young.
And I spent the whole sessionwhen I was there doing my visit
(34:25):
because I do regulation, 44visits, talking with her and
playing with her and her horses,which she'd got all set up and
we're having a conversation.
So some of those mechanisms,those things like plague can be
used as a, I don't wanna saytactic, I wanna say process by
which.
Or the conversations can be had?
Philippa (34:46):
I suppose you're in that connection, aren't you?
When you are playing and there'sthe third thing Winnie Cut talks
about the third thing that youare not, you are focused on the
horses rather than staring atone another, aren't you?
And it exactly makesconversation much easier,
doesn't it?
Yeah.
And I wonder also if it, whenthere's been a disconnect, when
(35:08):
there's been a rupture in thatrelationship that play, whether
it's going to get, having a gameof football in the back garden
or down the park or, evencooking together or listening to
music.
Yeah.
Those are all play aren't they,in different ways.
If it can bring back thatrelationship that, that.
Between, between young people inthe home, if there's been a
(35:31):
disruption there or between ayoung person and a staff member.
If that can be helpful.
I.
Angela (35:38):
Yeah, I think it's really helpful.
It's really helpful.
Within a children's home, youknow what, they tend to do
things, they call'em key workersessions.
It's usually based on thingsthat, children have got needs
and things that need to beaddressed.
And sometimes people think abouta key worker session is sitting
down and having a lecture orgoing through a workbook or
whatever.
I'm a firm advocate of let'sbake a cake and have a
conversation.
(35:58):
Let's go for a walk, or let's goand do whatever.
Those.
Those third things create theenvironment.
One, to have, like I said, tohave the conversations, but also
to feel like they that you'vegot special time, dedicated
time.
We all like to feel important.
We all like to feel like we'vegot our own dedicated time.
(36:20):
And it's particularly importantI think, within children's homes
where there might be multiplechildren.
And sometimes I've got home, soeverybody need, every child in
that home needs to have theirindividual time because they all
need to feel special in someway.
And those play elements, whetherthat be, going, getting the
(36:41):
nails done or going to doingwhatever, spending that special
time.
Is part of building thatrelationship and bringing,
bringing people back togetheragain.
If there have, if there has beena rupture and there's a lot of
homes also operate in arestorative practice where they
talk about that.
So they have a conversation andyou've got emotionally mature
(37:01):
adults who are willing and ableto hear.
They themselves have not donethe best job that they could
have done.
And we talk about, reflectivepractice and reflecting upon,
what was that about?
What was that about for me?
How did I respond appropriatelyto that child?
Did what did that triggering me?
(37:22):
Going, and again, where was I inall of that?
I often think about, if, whenyou are looking at the behavior
of a child or an incident, thefirst place you, you should look
at is yourself in terms of howam I, what's is happening for
me, and how can I then make surethat whatever's happening for me
does not leak out to what, howI'm now gonna deal with the
(37:44):
child.
Because if it does, then it'sgot the potential to further
escalate.
Yeah.
But that, that, but that's whatI'm talking about in terms of
emotional.
Resilience and building thatwithin the team and within the
staff.
But yeah, players I think hasgot play and playful is a humor.
Humor particularly with withteenagers is always a good one,
I think.
(38:04):
And and sometimes giving them ananswer that they weren't
expecting you to give is alwaysa really good one,
Philippa (38:09):
yeah, you were just, I just want to just go back a
little bit.
You talked about restorativepractice.
Yeah.
And I guess some people won'tknow what that is, Angela.
Yeah.
Can you just give us a littlebit about what that is?
Yeah.
And how you support that.
Angela (38:24):
Yeah.
So restorative practice isreally where you if there has
been an issue.
An argument.
So Rupture in that relationship,a rupture in the relationship.
Whether that be, let's say forinstance, the child has had to
be held, physically held, whichcan be a massive rupture in a
relationship.
Part of the process that goes onafterwards would be, some places
they do, they call it a make a,making it right discussion.
(38:47):
So sit down with the child andthe person who.
Do whatever, and they have thatrestorative conversation about
how they felt and as, ashonestly as they can do to then
rebuild and what they're gonnado to rebuild their relationship
together.
So it's based on restoring andre reconnecting those
(39:08):
relationships so that they canmove forward productively.
Sorry, I say so.
It gives a child a chance to beheard.
The member of staff a chance tobe heard, but the member of
staff shouldn't really betalking about how the child
might them feel.
Really, you should be blamingthe child.
It's about restorative andbuilding relationship moving
forward.
Sorry.
Philippa (39:27):
I was gonna say it's about maybe because I guess in
those moments, a child, a youngperson can feel like you are
doing this to me.
Which I guess is where westarted the Yep.
The conversation around, you'redoing this to me, you've,
you've.
Put this boundary in place andyou're doing it because you
(39:47):
don't like me or because I'munfair.
Because children who've hadearly life adversity often see
the world in a really negativeway, don't they?
Understandably.
Yeah.
What you can view that may besomebody's boundary or
somebody's intervention isbecause you are bad and because
they don't want you to be happy.
Yeah.
But maybe what I'm hearing isthe restorative practice is
(40:10):
giving.
The child an opportunity to hearmaybe a different narrative
around that.
It's I was really worried aboutyou.
Yes.
And I was really trying to keepyou safe and therefore helping
to build that connection ratherthan drive the disconnection.
The disconnection is you did itbecause you wanted to hurt me.
The connection being, okay, somaybe you were trying to keep me
(40:34):
safe, which I guess as parentsis what we do all the time,
don't we?
We say.
I know you really wanna go tothat party, but you're not going
because I'm really worried thatsomething's gonna happen to you.
Yeah.
But they've got, our kids whohaven't had that early life
adversity.
Have all this experience thatlets them know that their
(40:55):
parents doing it because theylove them, because they want to
keep them safe.
But maybe children in a, in adifferent setting, they don't
have this experience that peopledo to keep me safe.
Because they care about me'causethey look after me.
They've maybe got the experiencethat people do these things
because they like hurting mebecause I'm a bad person.
(41:16):
And what I'm hearing you say isthis restorative practice is
about helping the child have adifferent narrative and driving
connection.
Angela (41:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, I would, I would totallyagree with that.
It's I've seen it workexceptionally well within homes
and developing really strongpositive relationships that are
built on trust and respect.
Because, that's a big thing, Ithink, respect.
Within relationships, and again,as adults, sometimes we think we
should have that automaticallybecause we're the older person.
(41:46):
And respect is earned and it'searned through the way in which
you interact with the oldperson, the way in which you
treat them, the way you talk tothem, the way in which we
involved them.
But I guess
Philippa (41:58):
that's about also hearing the child, isn't it?
And the young person.
Yeah.
That bit of, okay, so I wasdoing this out of care, but you
were experiencing it like thisand I guess what you're talking
about is validating theirexperience.
Yeah.
Of saying, absolutely.
I can see that was scary foryou.
(42:19):
I can see that this was what wasgoing on for you.
And that builds that trust then,I'm guessing.
Yeah.
Angela (42:25):
Yeah.
So it's not like sometimes asadults we, if a child says, I
think needs some whatever wespend our time trying to
contradict them to get them toagree with our view of the
world.
Yeah.
And that's an example ofactually not listening to them.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
You, because and also that forme as well, that goes back to
what society tells us aboutbeing parents.
(42:47):
So if you've got a child sayingstuff to you that makes you
think, oh my God, that makes mesound like a terrible person.
I don't really wanna hear thatbecause society tells me I can't
be that person, therefore I haveto interject and get the child
to actually see that.
That's not how I meant it.
And one of the things I learneda very long time ago when I did
NLP is that you are not incontrol of anybody's behavior or
(43:10):
thoughts other than your own.
And the way in which you saysomething is not the way in
which it's perceived orreceived, and it's perfectly
valid for that person to receiveit and perceive in.
They don't have to accept thatyou, you didn't mean it in that
way, and then maybe you wouldlook at yourself and then go
maybe if I'm in that situationagain with that person, I might
(43:33):
try a different way ofexpressing that so that maybe
they did hear it a differentway.
Because like I say, the onlyperson's behavior you can change
is your own.
That's the only person'sbehavior you are in control of
or can change is your own.
So again, we always go back tolooking at yourself within the
context of it, but I thinkhearing and understanding how
(43:55):
the child feels is reallyimportant for reflective
practice.
And reflecting on then is thereanything else I can do
differently?
And I know even in myself as anadult from, managing people,
working in differentorganizations, not even working
with children.
I've sat on my over overnightand reflected and thought oh
God, did I really say that inthat meeting?
(44:16):
And I've got this response.
Next time I'm gonna do itdifferently.
And it might take me quite awhile to reflect and a number of
times to reflect on the samething, to change what I'm doing,
to get a different responsebecause it's a process.
It's not that you're just gonnasay it once and change, it's a
process, but you have to be opento that process of always
continually coming back toyourself.
(44:37):
And I don't mean that in aselfish way.
I mean that in a reflective way.
But also not beating yourself upabout it.
If you don't get it right, it'sokay not to get it right.
Like I said, as parents at somepoint in our children's lives,
we're not particularly great.
All of us, every one of us.
And that's absolutely okay.
(44:59):
Yeah.
It's okay because it's life andwe do the best we do at the time
that we do it.
With the hope that we're doingthe right thing.
And then we might reflect on itlater and think, oh actually,
and that's okay too.
That's absolutely fine.
Reflect on that.
Learn from that, and just trysomething different.
It's okay.
But like I said, the societalexpectation that we should all
(45:23):
be perfect parents.
'cause everybody's judging us.
I think if you, if we take astep back and spend less time
worrying about what other peoplethink about us which I would say
to anybody about anything, we'dbe much happier in our lives and
much more contented really.
But that's a wider subject.
Philippa (45:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's as we're nearlyour hour, Angela, there's so
much more I could ask you, somaybe you'll have to come back
on.
Yeah.
But just as we are wrapping upthen, so you support children's
homes to do this.
I'll put a link in thedescription of this podcast to
your website for you for peopleto.
(46:01):
To get in touch with you, butyour job just generally just
give us a general overview ofhow you support children's homes
and what you do.
Angela (46:10):
Yeah.
So I, the, in, within theregulations, there's something
called a regulation 44 visitorat any home that's opted,
registered, has to have somebodyindependent go in every month.
And view the record, speak tochildren, speak to the staff,
and write a report withrecommendations for improvement
as to whether they are meetingregulations or developmental
(46:32):
recommendations.
And that's then sent to themanager and the responsible
individual, but also to Ted andthat report forms part.
What Ted can potentially use astheir key lines of inquiry when
they come to do an inspection.
That's number one.
Additionally, we providetraining things like
safeguarding.
My, I myself, my, my particularspecial specialty and passion is
(46:56):
management training.
And I am about to launch somesort of networking events within
the West Midlands aroundmanagement and management
training.
That's my passion because like Isaid at the beginning, it all
rises and falls.
On the management and thosebeing strong and resilient and
supported to do their role.
We also provide support topeople who are opening
children's homes in terms of theprocess and what they need and
(47:19):
what they don't need.
General consultancy in terms ofstrategic support and
development of their children'shomes, organizations anything,
everything really to do withchildren's residential care and
actually now more as wellsupported accommodation.
'cause they're also now in theprocess of being registered by
Osted.
They have to be 16 to 18, arenow registered with Osted, or
(47:42):
some of them are on the way.
So some also do things like mockinspections, reviews, audits,
all sorts of different things,but focused on improving the
service, moving it forward,developing it and that type of
thing.
Really.
Philippa (47:57):
Okay.
And so people can get a hold ofyou through the website.
Yeah.
If they want to have aconversation with you or think
about absolutely.
Any of these services.
That's wonderful.
Angela, thank you so much foryour time on our podcast.
Thank you.
And we look forward to speakingto you again at some point in
the future.
Angela (48:15):
Thank you.
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
(00:03):
Therapy with me Philippa.
And this week my guest is AngelaGriffith and she is a registered
social worker and independentsocial care consultant.
She has over 30 years ofexperience in the field of
children's social care.
She works with children's homes,organizations, and local
(00:27):
authorities to provide them withtraining, coaching, and
consulting services that helpthem improve their practice.
Ensure safeguarding andevidence, the provision of high
quality care for children andyoung people.
In 2015, she founded Children'sHomes Improvement Limited, a
(00:48):
consultancy that offers bespokeand tailored support to meet the
diverse and complex needs of thesocial care sector.
Her mission is to support,empower, inspire, and
collaborate with individuals andteams to improve outcomes and
innovations in children's socialcare.
She also offers supervision,mentoring, training for those
(01:12):
who run and are responsible forchildren's homes so that they
are compliant with inspectionsand regulations.
Welcome Angela.
That's a lot you've got going onthere in your, life.
So you've been doing this forquite a while and built up quite
(01:33):
a lot of experience.
Angela (01:34):
Yes, that's right.
Philippa.
First, I'd like to thank you forinviting me on today.
It's very nice to speak withyou.
Yes, I've been working in thefield for quite a long time.
I started back in 1991 as awaking night worker in a local
authority children's home.
So I would say that I'veprobably done every job there is
(01:55):
in residential care, includingmanaging several homes in one
go, working with lots ofdifferent local authorities.
I did 10 years working in actionfor children.
Yeah, I suppose you can say thatmy career is quite diverse, but
all with children, really mainlywithin social care.
Philippa (02:15):
And I bet you've seen some changes over those 30
years.
Angela, from when you started towhere you are now
Angela (02:21):
Yeah, I, yeah.
It's fair to say I've seen somechanges.
When I first started inresidential care, there was no
inspection, there were noregulations, there was very
little training.
Really, I think all we had wasthe initial rollout of the
Children Act 1989.
So the, we've had all theregulations and the inspections,
et cetera.
(02:42):
Unfortunately, I'd like to saythat I haven't seen as much
change as I would like to see interms of the support provided
for young people withinresidential care and some of the
outcomes that they stillstruggle with that's an issue.
I haven't seen as much change asI would like to have seen in
terms of children's servicesbeing needs led rather than
(03:03):
resource led, but I alsoappreciate that, money's not
infinite, but it's still anissue really.
And in these cash strap timesit's even more of an issue.
Philippa (03:14):
So if you've got people who don't really have any
experience of children who livein, homes where there's multiple
occupancy cared for with staffor I guess parents one, can you
explain what the purpose of themis and what is it?
When you're saying you haven'tseen as much change, can you
(03:36):
tell us a bit more about that?
Angela (03:37):
Yeah, so the purpose of a children's home is to provide
a safe and caring, nurturingenvironment for a child or young
person who's not living withintheir family home or living
within foster care.
Historically residential carewas always seen as the.
Of last resort, but for someyoung people it isn't a choice
(03:58):
of last resort.
It is an appropriate placementfor them to.
Quite interesting to think abouthow different it is to be in a
children's home rather than in afamily home or even in a foster
care placement.
There are different types ofchildren's homes which provide
different types of services.
(04:19):
You have somewhere young peoplelive and stay until they're 18.
And you have others where theygo and it's really quite short
term and it's an assessment orit's a pathway, it's part of
their journey back home or intoresident in, sorry, into foster
care or into supportedaccommodation should they reach
16.
(04:39):
There's a variety of differentpurposes of a children's home
and a variety of differentregistrations of children's
homes.
So you have some homes thatspecialize working with children
with mental health issues, somewith learning disabilities, some
with children who've got,challenging behavior and lots of
risks.
(04:59):
So there's a variety.
You've also had children's homesthat are offer short break and
respite care for children withdisabilities, or actually
sometimes.
In some cases for children whorequire a little bit of a break
from home to support them beingable to stay at home, whether
they don't have a disability ora mental health issue.
So it's quite diverse.
(05:21):
The, the estate of residentialis very diverse.
You also have.
Residential homes that are runby local authorities, and we've
seen a resurgence of that in thepast few years with additional
money being given for that and avery large private sector, which
we've also seen a lot of pressabout, particularly the ones
(05:42):
where.
They're the bigger companies andthere's issues around making
money outta that particularaspect of children's social
care.
So there's a lot of changescoming along with that.
And what I mean by not seeing asmany changes is that residential
care provides a good opportunityfor children to strive and work
(06:08):
towards better outcomes.
The quality of the residentialcare is good in the main.
There are some bad residentialhomes as there are bad foster
placements, as there are badwhatever.
The issue I have is actuallywith the system that supports
children in care, looked afterchildren, and how it's still
(06:30):
remains, in my view, to letchildren and young people down.
Where I've not seen as muchchange as I would like to see is
the actual involvement ofchildren and young people in
their own care.
We still have a system which isdoing to the child rather than
with the child.
And in doing that, actually inmy view, reduces the potential
(06:51):
to build the child's resiliencebecause as we all know.
The cornerstones of resilienceare self-esteem and
self-efficacy, and a child incare has very little
self-efficacy.
And decisions are often made notincluding them.
And we as adults, obviously weknow best.
And I'm not saying that we don'tin some circumstances, because,
(07:14):
risks have to be managed.
You can never eradicate a risk,you can only mitigate a risk.
But we also have to bringchildren and young people up to
live in the world in a safe way.
The bits that for me is aboutnot really involving the
children, not we have, we give alot of verbal time to saying
that we put the children first.
(07:34):
Unfortunately, I still see quitea lot of instances where it's
actually not about the child,it's about the resources and
it's about an adult's agendarather than a child's agenda and
what's best for the child.
And that's my opinion, that's myexperience.
This is quite a broad brush.
I'm saying.
I'm not saying there aren'tgood, services out there.
I'm not saying there aren't goodsocial care services or social
(07:56):
people who work as individualswithin the social care setting
who do.
Endeavor and strive to put youngpeople at the center of what
they do and do strive inendeavor to support them to take
an active part and controlwithin their care journey.
But unfortunately, I'm stillseeing too much of the latter.
Philippa (08:16):
And a lot of people, will watch things like.
Is it Tracy Beaker?
Angela (08:20):
Yep.
Philippa (08:20):
Where they live in a children's home.
And that in some way canglamorize.
Maybe.
What the experience is andbecause they're the children
from the bits that I've seen doseem to have a lot of autonomy
and a lot of a lot of control.
(08:41):
Or not control, but say in whatgoes on and they're responding
to, and then they can act out ifand repair the people in the
parental role Then rethinkwhat's going on and think, oh
yes we can hear you.
Is that a glamorized view thatisn't, I know I'm asking you a
question that I know the answerto, but I suppose lots of people
(09:02):
will have watched things likeTra Tracy Beaker and
Angela (09:05):
Yeah, I think there are elements in Tracy Beaker that
are right, and there are homeswhere.
That would be absolutely thecase where children are totally
and fully involved in whathappens in the home and how it
operates and having their wishesand feelings.
Within the children's homeregulations, there's a whole
standard on children's wishesand feelings, and there's a duty
(09:26):
and a legal obligation to takethose into consideration and to
listen to them and todemonstrate how you do those.
It's not so much the homes thatI have the issue with.
It's a wider system that I havethe issue with because whilst
homes are striving to do thatand are advocating on behalf of
their children and young people,the wider system sometimes works
(09:49):
against that.
So yeah there's an element ofglamorization around that.
I don't, it's not a truereflection of.
What happen in a home, living ina home can be quite traumatic to
a child on what, if you thinkabout that, have a of children
who.
Don't know each other have allgot their own trauma and issues
(10:13):
to deal with which in itself isdifficult.
And then they have to set aboutbuilding new relationships with
carers and staff and managementand other children within the
home, as well as dealing witheverything that's brought them
to that position in the firstplace as to where they're at.
It's can be quite overwhelming,I don't think it necessarily
reflects that there areelements.
(10:34):
Yeah, it, it probably reflectsan idealized approach of what we
would maybe want children'shomes to be.
Maybe or maybe not.
I can't say I've sat down andwatched every episode, but from
what you're saying, it sounds alittle bit idealized.
But it's the wider system thatfor me is the issue.
And don't get me wrong, thereare I go into homes.
(10:56):
And I see some absolutelyfabulous and fabulous practice
with children where they aretotally involved and I've seen,
and I get to watch the journeyof the child when they come into
the home and how they come inand how they change and develop
and.
To move on from the home, but Ialso go into homes where that is
(11:18):
not the case.
Yeah.
And I also go into homes wherethey, homes do fabulous work and
are continually fighting withthe wider system to advocate for
their children as a good parentwould do, as in being in loco
parentis.
But, it's the and within.
Again, within the children'shome, like I say, you've got the
whole standard on wishes andfeelings.
(11:40):
You have another regulation,which is called Regulation five,
where actually the home,including the manager, the
registered manager, are legallyobliged to advocate for a child
if they feel that any service atall.
Is not doing what is in the bestinterest of the child, whether
that be not providing them withthe appropriate healthcare or
(12:03):
not, giving them a access toeducation or whatever that might
be.
There's a legal obligation formanagers to escalate that within
the social care services, andit's really interesting how that
can then be perceived.
By the wider the wider sectorreally, particularly within
(12:25):
social services it can be seenas quite challenging and it's
almost what do residentialmanagers know?
They're not qualified socialworkers.
And there's still that.
And that's also some of thechange that I've still not yet
seen.
So when I first started inresidential, like I said, there
was no qualifications to.
(12:48):
But now you have to be, you haveto have a certain level of
qualification to be a worker oryou have to be working towards
that.
You have to have a certain levelof qualification to be a
manager, but that qualificationis not a social work degree.
They're not registered, they'renot required to be registered
social workers, unless of coursethey're in Scotland, where
actually everybody who works inresidential is required to do
(13:10):
the social work qualification,which is quite interesting.
And that in itself creates aalmost like a disempowerment for
managers in challenging thesystem.
Because, we as social workers,as one myself, as a registered
social worker, we know best, weknow all about somebody with a
lesser qualification,unfortunately, and again, I'm
using a broad brush and I'musing very much a broad brush.
(13:32):
But there is that they don't,they're not, they're qualified
to the level that we are, but sowe know best.
So if we're saying this isn't arisk or that is a risk, then it
is because we say so because.
The level and quality ofexperience that residential care
staff have and the knowledgethat they develop about the
(13:53):
children that they work with,who they're with 24 7 over a
period of time, and otherprofessionals might visit them
once a month.
Yeah, they have, they are thepeople with the relationship,
Philippa (14:05):
so just thinking about that relationship and thinking
about wishes and feelings andthings like that.
How is that balance?
Because.
I guess what I'm thinking isthat parents, people who maybe
aren't in.
This profession every day whenthey think you know about wishes
(14:28):
and feelings and listening tothe child, that they then get to
do whatever they want and it'sthey don't get to do that at
home.
They might wish to have or wantto have chocolate for breakfast,
but there's a boundary andthey're not having chocolate for
breakfast.
They're only having it once aday.
Or they might want to go toAlton Towers every.
Every weekend, but actuallythere's a boundary and they're
not going to, why shouldchildren or young people who are
(14:50):
cared away from home have morethan that?
They need boundaries.
They need structure that I'msaying this, that's, not
actually my view, but I'm justthink about if you are if you're
listening and sometimes thenewspapers and social media can
portray that.
Children in local authoritycare, or, get a lot more treats
(15:14):
without the boundaries in place.
So when you are talking aboutwishes and feelings, are you
talking about they, they canhave chocolate for breakfast if
they want to?
Angela (15:23):
Absolutely not.
I'm not talking about havingchocolate for breakfast.
I'm talking about ensuring thatthe child or young person feels
heard.
And listened to and involved, wecan all have wishes, whether
they are fulfilled is anothermatter, but we have the right to
articulate them.
And, even in a relationship, inan adult relationship, we like
(15:46):
to feel that we're listened to.
You are the person can stilldisagree with us, but we're
given the space to express whatit is that our view is.
That view is not compatiblewith, say, a risk, then that's a
conversation that the adultwould have with the child around
the risks around that.
(16:07):
And it becomes a negotiation, adiscussion, a compromise.
I firmly believe that anybodywho thinks they can tell a
teenager what to do, he is on alosing battle.
It's very difficult if you thinkback to when you were a
yourself, were a teenager.
Who could tell you what to doand why would you listen to
somebody you know?
Teenagers are in are interestingbeings and it's a way of working
(16:31):
with them that allows'em to feelpart of the conversation.
We all like to feel valued andeven as adults, even when we're
managed by people, we like tofeel valued.
We like to feel heard, we liketo feel listened to because that
makes us, it promotes our selfesteem.
So we're not talking about.
Just giving children what theywant when they want it.
(16:52):
It's about being heard.
It's about being listened tobecause the bigger picture
around that is it supports theirresilience and the development
of that, and that's what theyneed going out into the big wide
world, potentially more so whenthey're being in the care
system, because they potentiallywon't have that network around
them that our own children wouldhave when they step outside the
(17:13):
door,
Philippa (17:13):
so I'm guessing I'm just thinking about, when
teenagers are in, in, in theirfamily of origin or maybe in
foster care they do express, I'mjust gonna use an example.
I want to go, I want to go toJohnny's for a party on Saturday
night, and they're 40.
So they, they are allowed to dothat.
And as a parent, I guess we havethe autonomy to weigh the risk
(17:39):
that we think, okay, Johnny peJohnny's parents are gonna be
there.
They're gonna make sure there'sno alcohol.
He stay, he, he is, hadsleepovers there before, I'm
gonna collect him in themorning.
Yeah, of course you can.
Or the alternative of Johnny'sparents aren't there.
We know that.
You know that there is nocontrol over that.
We don't.
So actually, no, you can go fora few hours, but we're gonna
(18:02):
collect you.
You're not having a sleepover orno, you're not going at all.
So there's a, I suppose there'sthat the child can voice their
wish, their desire, which iswhat teenagers do.
They have a relationship, withtheir parent that says.
I hate you for not letting mego, but I know that you love me
(18:22):
and you're doing this, sothey'll begrudgingly accept it
because there's a relationshipthere.
And I suppose, I was justthinking this in for teenagers
in who are being cared for in,away from home, maybe in a
residential service that maybethe residential service.
This is what I think I'm hearingyou saying, doesn't always have
(18:46):
that autonomy to make the riskassessment.
So it's a blanket, we don't letkids stay out overnight or we
don't let, or that we do, but wehave to go through these million
steps and they've only, they'veasked us on Saturday morning and
see how happening on Saturdaynight and the residential
(19:06):
manager or whoever's leading.
The shift at the time doesn'thave the autonomy to say yes or
no, so the child or young personmisses out even if the person
would think actually, yeah, therisk is manageable.
The risk is okay.
It's developmentally appropriatejust like the parent would.
So it's that disconnect betweenbeing able to.
(19:29):
Hear a child and makeappropriate decisions, because
I'm guessing that then damagesthe relationship.
'cause it feels really unfair.
Yeah.
And it's unfair.
Angela (19:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're absolutely right.
I'll go to homes where, kidshave gone to festivals with
their friends in camped out andstuff like that.
But the process to get to that.
Got to go to the social worker,we've got to have this
conversation.
This risk assessment, got to dothis, got to do that.
You can't really respond in themoment unless there's a prior
agreement around it.
(20:01):
You've got the delegatedauthority to do that.
And then, and to be honest,Philippa, sometimes some of the
social workers that you know.
If, I've spoken with the child,they feel quite competent.
They've met the child that thethe child is gonna stay with or
whatever.
They've met the family, they'vedone the work, but then the
(20:22):
social worker says no, becausethe social worker themselves is
risk of birth and doesn't wantit coming back on them.
And this is why I'm saying aboutwhere's the child in this
decision and putting the childfirst.
Sometimes I say to a lot ofpeople.
Even just parents, to be honest.
When you're thinking about howyou're responding to a child,
(20:43):
particularly around risk, whoseneeds are being met in the
context of that, is it thatactually I don't wanna be
worried about this child, so I'mgonna say no, so then I can go
to sleep even as a parent and weall go through that, we all,
having a child myself, and it'sa very, it's very hard to.
(21:05):
Help them make money, takemanaged risks and hope for the
best.
But that, who's, whose needs arebeing met and how am I
supporting this child, my child,or a child within a, in, in, in
care, in residential, in fostercare, wherever, to take those
managed risks in order then tounderstand what risk is and be
able to manage it in the future.
(21:26):
And I talk to people a lot.
I do quite a bit of training andstuff, and I talk a bit about,
when we overprotect our childrenand what that is about and why
we do that.
Because actually, we I, thescenario that I tend to use is
when people say to me, no, mychild's not going to school.
I'm the public boss.
(21:46):
Because it's just not safe.
How long are you going.
What are you actually going toallow them on public transport?
Because when they turn 18,they'll be an adult.
Does that mean it's safe forthem to be on public transport
now that they are, they've gonefrom 17 or 16 to 18.
What skills have we enabled themto develop to notice risk and
(22:06):
manage risk and.
Be safe in the big wide worldbecause, you never, not a
parent.
Even when they're older, youstill can worry about them.
But I just think as a parent andI apply, would apply the same
things.
And when I talk to to staff atworking children's times, whose
needs are being met, what isthis about?
How are we best supporting thechild?
(22:28):
And that's what I mean aboutputting the child at the center.
And this is about the child.
Yeah.
I think that's really what I'mtalking about in terms of the
management of risk.
But you are right, it is, it canbe feel very unfair for children
who live in the care setting.
'cause they can't just randomlydecide to go and do something
(22:48):
and have it agreed of a weekend.
And I did when I worked forAction for Children, I did a
piece of work which is calledwhich.
Was done with young peoplearound keeping myself safe.
It's called the keeping myselfSafe Toolkit.
And that was done with youngpeople and it was all about them
enabling myself to keep safe.
(23:08):
And a lot the feedback was aboutI can't go to the beach'cause
they have to write a riskassessment if I go to the beach.
Who does that?
But because children's homes arealso registered.
And inspected.
You can get to position wherethey become that risk averse
that they don't want anything togo wrong.
So they'll just try anderadicate everything and you
(23:30):
can't eradicate everything.
Like I said, you just can't, andwe're not doing young people any
favors.
And it's also one of the thingsthat when I do work with homes.
When I see things in the homethat are set out against the
regulations or the standards,the quality standards.
And I'm like, what is the wrongway around?
Really, it's the wrong wayaround because that tells me you
(23:52):
are doing that so that you canpass your inspection.
Actually, we should be startingwith the child and working to
see where we are with that.
Does that make sense?
You can get, people can get intothat situation where they talk
about getting a good inspection.
I can't take this child, they'rerun away, that I won't get a
good inspection.
Children are children.
Children's homes could be veryrisky places.
(24:14):
Happen in children's homes.
It's what you do with whathappens that makes the
difference and how you managethat and how you demonstrate
that.
Actually, yes, that went wrongand this is what we've learned
about it.
And it's the same with childrenand young people.
Yeah.
You go out you've made amistake.
Let's learn from that mistake.
What would you do differentlynext time?
(24:36):
You sit down with them and to dotheir risk assessment.
So if you go out, how are yougoing to keep, what are you
gonna do to keep yourself safe?
That's what our job is.
My, as an adult with children,is to enable them to grow and to
live productively and safely inthe world.
Philippa (24:54):
Yeah that, that makes sense.
So how do you think, theresidential sector supports or
can support children because,and young people could because
they are usually in aresidential home for a reason.
There's a reason.
And some of those are because,they've got physical needs and
(25:16):
parents and that, that need abreak.
And I guess that's.
That's a clear objective, isn'tit?
That they're getting older,they're getting bigger, they
need more intense, they mightneed more socialization that
their parents can't give, andthey have respite, or they have,
that they need that moreprofessionalized care than they
(25:39):
can get at home.
We then, I guess got that theother part of that, which is
children that maybe have riskbehaviors or are challenging at
home, or maybe parents can'tkeep them safe or maybe they've
experienced, trauma, neglect,adversity within the family home
(26:01):
and they've, they need to becared for within the residential
sector.
What do, what would be a goodservice?
How does that look if you aregoing to support children in
these, the, these areas?
Angela (26:17):
Yeah, it's really, that's a really interesting,
given that the, the sector isquite diverse.
Yeah.
So for me, if I was to thinkabout a good home.
Yeah, whatever that might be.
For me it rises and falls on themanagement, number one.
Number one, you need a verygood, strong manager who is not
(26:42):
insecure in themselves, is veryopen to developing and
supporting their team to developis very resilient.
And child focused number one.
So I can go into homes and, youcan have a fabulous manager and
a team that's actually quite newand underdeveloped and you can
(27:02):
still have a really positivehome.
I've going to homes where you'veactually got quite a
longstanding experience team andthe manager is displaying things
of, levels of insecurity andmicromanagement and risk.
The home will not be as good.
Yeah.
It falls and dies on themanagement really.
(27:23):
So that's number one.
Yeah.
And then you've got theenvironment being conducive to
nurturing and warm.
And that doesn't mean it has tobe flashy and it has to be
polish.
It has to be clean, it has to betidy.
It has to be I walk intochildren's homes and I can get
an immediate feel for the home.
(27:43):
You know what it feels like.
Does it feel warm?
Does it feel welcoming?
Just as something as silly aswould you like a drink when you
come in, oh, nice to see you, orwhatever.
Because they're greeting me likethat.
That's how they're areinteracting with the children.
Conversely, I've got into homeswhere, or they're signing in
book and the member of staff'swalking around with their coat
on, who walks around the housewith a coat on I'm cold.
(28:05):
Put a cardigan on.
It's a house.
This is a home.
It's a child's home.
It needs to feel like a.
Is to feel warm and welcoming.
And then you've got the staffthemselves and how they interact
with the children and youngpeople.
And you can tell a lot just fromthat interaction, whether it's
warm, whether it's supportive,whether it's an element of
(28:27):
humor, whether there's, andagain, within the regulations
and the quality standards as awhole standard on positive
relationships.
Because let's be clear, nomatter what you do, no matter
how you work or how youpractice, or whatever
methodology you want to adopt,working with children, young
people, whether that's DDP, paceor any other of these.
(28:49):
Models that you can use.
It all comes down to the qualityof the relationship you have
with the person you are doing itwith.
And that's proven withinresearch, so those relationships
are absolutely the key mechanismfor everything.
So I'm a firm believer inrelationship based practice as
above anything else.
(29:09):
Yeah, you build thatrelationship and it's positive,
then you can have thoseconversations with a child.
That might be difficult.
You have a build a positiverelationship where the young
person knows that you, they cantrust you in terms of you do
what you say you're gonna do.
You are not disingenuous, youare not saying stuff just to
(29:30):
appease them.
You're firm consistent, butyou're fair.
You get what you see what youget, you they're saying that
builds positive relationships.
And when the child is in, in aposition where it's having
difficulty and having challengesand whatever that relationship
can be, the difference betweentalking to the child or young
person and bringing them down oractually saying something that's
(29:52):
gonna further escalate them.
So the relationships aremassively important.
You can't do any work or inputwithout the relationship.
Also, it's how staff talk aboutthe children.
Are they talking about them?
Just, not when the children arethere.
Are they talking about them in anegative way?
(30:13):
Are they focusing on thenegative language or are they
focusing on the positive?
Language, and it's a bit likechildren as well.
It's a bit like, when you hearsomebody say, oh, my child's
been a proper little thismorning, but actually, has the
child been a proper little thismorning?
Or have you just had a difficultday?
It's okay to have a difficultday, it's fine, but we often
(30:35):
externalize how we're feelingand make it the child's issue.
And that's something that Ithink society does to us as
adults because we have to beseen as really good parents.
We have to be seen as goodparents.
And it's not acceptable not tobe good parent, but actually
that's why it goes back to whatI said before about whose needs
are being met, putting the childfirst, so some of those elements
(30:58):
in terms of good care that thechild is.
I can, that when I speak to thechild, they are able to
articulate they wishes andfeelings to me.
I went to a home and I was justtalking to the people this
morning.
I went to a home the other dayand the girl was absolutely
fabulous.
Fabulous.
She was, they've got some thingsthey need to address, but she
(31:19):
told them, she knew exactly whatthey didn't need me to go in to
be a consultant, to tell them.
She'd been in the care system along time.
She was telling everything thatthey needed to do because we
often forget that children seeand hear things.
Staff have conversations andthey think the children don't
know.
If I want to know what'shappening in a home, I go talk
(31:40):
to the children.
If I want to know which memberof staff, is it a bad mood or
who likes who, I go speak forchildren, but it's adults, we
forget.
It's almost like that thing weforget that they can hear, they
can feel, when a member of staffwalks into into the home, a
child can tell they're in moodor bad mood.
It's palpable.
(32:02):
And that's why we have to giveconsideration to what we take
into a home as adult workers.
Yeah, so those are some of theissues I would say would be a
good time.
I could go on about all sorts ofother things, but from a I think
from a relationship based pointand a personal point of view in
terms of those relationships,it's absolutely key.
(32:25):
That's when it's going todescend even more.
And I'm not saying that in ahome where there are good
positive relationships, there'snot going to be extremely
challenging times because thereare, because we're dealing with
children who've got lots oftrauma and are trying to
challenge and they're going on ajourney themselves.
Like I saying, the whole thingabout under the home understands
(32:46):
trauma.
They understand that.
You can have a fabulous day witha young person, absolutely
fabulous day.
And you can come back and therecan be a massive incident that
night.
And that can be for a variety ofdifferent reasons.
It was too much of a good day.
They had too much of a good dayand they weren't with their
parents.
(33:06):
They actually liked you as amember of staff, so they're
gonna target you becauseactually they don't trust, they
don't know how much you, theycan trust you or their
experience of relationships isthat.
If they get to another adult,like adults, the relationships
are broken.
So I'm gonna test, I'm gonnabreak that first so you can do
that to, I'm gonna have that,just the basic stuff in terms of
(33:28):
trauma and understanding thatand having a resilient,
emotionally resilient team.
Philippa (33:37):
Yeah.
Do you think we talked aboutrelationships, that is the key,
that this podcast is all aboutrelationships and how we have
those and how the effectors andall those sorts of things do you
think play.
Or playfulness within children'shomes plays a part.
(33:59):
Can staff be playful and playand use play?
Angela (34:02):
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That most, most definitely.
The way which play used orplayfulness, should I say,
depends on the young person.
And you know what?
I've got homes where they've hadseven year olds in.
And I go, and I, even as avisitor, I've got one home, I
think, was she seven or eight ormaybe even nine, I don't know.
But she was very young.
And I spent the whole sessionwhen I was there doing my visit
(34:25):
because I do regulation, 44visits, talking with her and
playing with her and her horses,which she'd got all set up and
we're having a conversation.
So some of those mechanisms,those things like plague can be
used as a, I don't wanna saytactic, I wanna say process by
which.
Or the conversations can be had?
Philippa (34:46):
I suppose you're in that connection, aren't you?
When you are playing and there'sthe third thing Winnie Cut talks
about the third thing that youare not, you are focused on the
horses rather than staring atone another, aren't you?
And it exactly makesconversation much easier,
doesn't it?
Yeah.
And I wonder also if it, whenthere's been a disconnect, when
(35:08):
there's been a rupture in thatrelationship that play, whether
it's going to get, having a gameof football in the back garden
or down the park or, evencooking together or listening to
music.
Yeah.
Those are all play aren't they,in different ways.
If it can bring back thatrelationship that, that.
Between, between young people inthe home, if there's been a
(35:31):
disruption there or between ayoung person and a staff member.
If that can be helpful.
I.
Angela (35:38):
Yeah, I think it's really helpful.
It's really helpful.
Within a children's home, youknow what, they tend to do
things, they call'em key workersessions.
It's usually based on thingsthat, children have got needs
and things that need to beaddressed.
And sometimes people think abouta key worker session is sitting
down and having a lecture orgoing through a workbook or
whatever.
I'm a firm advocate of let'sbake a cake and have a
conversation.
(35:58):
Let's go for a walk, or let's goand do whatever.
Those.
Those third things create theenvironment.
One, to have, like I said, tohave the conversations, but also
to feel like they that you'vegot special time, dedicated
time.
We all like to feel important.
We all like to feel like we'vegot our own dedicated time.
(36:20):
And it's particularly importantI think, within children's homes
where there might be multiplechildren.
And sometimes I've got home, soeverybody need, every child in
that home needs to have theirindividual time because they all
need to feel special in someway.
And those play elements, whetherthat be, going, getting the
(36:41):
nails done or going to doingwhatever, spending that special
time.
Is part of building thatrelationship and bringing,
bringing people back togetheragain.
If there have, if there has beena rupture and there's a lot of
homes also operate in arestorative practice where they
talk about that.
So they have a conversation andyou've got emotionally mature
(37:01):
adults who are willing and ableto hear.
They themselves have not donethe best job that they could
have done.
And we talk about, reflectivepractice and reflecting upon,
what was that about?
What was that about for me?
How did I respond appropriatelyto that child?
Did what did that triggering me?
(37:22):
Going, and again, where was I inall of that?
I often think about, if, whenyou are looking at the behavior
of a child or an incident, thefirst place you, you should look
at is yourself in terms of howam I, what's is happening for
me, and how can I then make surethat whatever's happening for me
does not leak out to what, howI'm now gonna deal with the
(37:44):
child.
Because if it does, then it'sgot the potential to further
escalate.
Yeah.
But that, that, but that's whatI'm talking about in terms of
emotional.
Resilience and building thatwithin the team and within the
staff.
But yeah, players I think hasgot play and playful is a humor.
Humor particularly with withteenagers is always a good one,
I think.
(38:04):
And and sometimes giving them ananswer that they weren't
expecting you to give is alwaysa really good one,
Philippa (38:09):
yeah, you were just, I just want to just go back a
little bit.
You talked about restorativepractice.
Yeah.
And I guess some people won'tknow what that is, Angela.
Yeah.
Can you just give us a littlebit about what that is?
Yeah.
And how you support that.
Angela (38:24):
Yeah.
So restorative practice isreally where you if there has
been an issue.
An argument.
So Rupture in that relationship,a rupture in the relationship.
Whether that be, let's say forinstance, the child has had to
be held, physically held, whichcan be a massive rupture in a
relationship.
Part of the process that goes onafterwards would be, some places
they do, they call it a make a,making it right discussion.
(38:47):
So sit down with the child andthe person who.
Do whatever, and they have thatrestorative conversation about
how they felt and as, ashonestly as they can do to then
rebuild and what they're gonnado to rebuild their relationship
together.
So it's based on restoring andre reconnecting those
(39:08):
relationships so that they canmove forward productively.
Sorry, I say so.
It gives a child a chance to beheard.
The member of staff a chance tobe heard, but the member of
staff shouldn't really betalking about how the child
might them feel.
Really, you should be blamingthe child.
It's about restorative andbuilding relationship moving
forward.
Sorry.
Philippa (39:27):
I was gonna say it's about maybe because I guess in
those moments, a child, a youngperson can feel like you are
doing this to me.
Which I guess is where westarted the Yep.
The conversation around, you'redoing this to me, you've,
you've.
Put this boundary in place andyou're doing it because you
(39:47):
don't like me or because I'munfair.
Because children who've hadearly life adversity often see
the world in a really negativeway, don't they?
Understandably.
Yeah.
What you can view that may besomebody's boundary or
somebody's intervention isbecause you are bad and because
they don't want you to be happy.
Yeah.
But maybe what I'm hearing isthe restorative practice is
(40:10):
giving.
The child an opportunity to hearmaybe a different narrative
around that.
It's I was really worried aboutyou.
Yes.
And I was really trying to keepyou safe and therefore helping
to build that connection ratherthan drive the disconnection.
The disconnection is you did itbecause you wanted to hurt me.
The connection being, okay, somaybe you were trying to keep me
(40:34):
safe, which I guess as parentsis what we do all the time,
don't we?
We say.
I know you really wanna go tothat party, but you're not going
because I'm really worried thatsomething's gonna happen to you.
Yeah.
But they've got, our kids whohaven't had that early life
adversity.
Have all this experience thatlets them know that their
(40:55):
parents doing it because theylove them, because they want to
keep them safe.
But maybe children in a, in adifferent setting, they don't
have this experience that peopledo to keep me safe.
Because they care about me'causethey look after me.
They've maybe got the experiencethat people do these things
because they like hurting mebecause I'm a bad person.
(41:16):
And what I'm hearing you say isthis restorative practice is
about helping the child have adifferent narrative and driving
connection.
Angela (41:24):
Yeah.
Yeah, I would, I would totallyagree with that.
It's I've seen it workexceptionally well within homes
and developing really strongpositive relationships that are
built on trust and respect.
Because, that's a big thing, Ithink, respect.
Within relationships, and again,as adults, sometimes we think we
should have that automaticallybecause we're the older person.
(41:46):
And respect is earned and it'searned through the way in which
you interact with the oldperson, the way in which you
treat them, the way you talk tothem, the way in which we
involved them.
But I guess
Philippa (41:58):
that's about also hearing the child, isn't it?
And the young person.
Yeah.
That bit of, okay, so I wasdoing this out of care, but you
were experiencing it like thisand I guess what you're talking
about is validating theirexperience.
Yeah.
Of saying, absolutely.
I can see that was scary foryou.
(42:19):
I can see that this was what wasgoing on for you.
And that builds that trust then,I'm guessing.
Yeah.
Angela (42:25):
Yeah.
So it's not like sometimes asadults we, if a child says, I
think needs some whatever wespend our time trying to
contradict them to get them toagree with our view of the
world.
Yeah.
And that's an example ofactually not listening to them.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
You, because and also that forme as well, that goes back to
what society tells us aboutbeing parents.
(42:47):
So if you've got a child sayingstuff to you that makes you
think, oh my God, that makes mesound like a terrible person.
I don't really wanna hear thatbecause society tells me I can't
be that person, therefore I haveto interject and get the child
to actually see that.
That's not how I meant it.
And one of the things I learneda very long time ago when I did
NLP is that you are not incontrol of anybody's behavior or
(43:10):
thoughts other than your own.
And the way in which you saysomething is not the way in
which it's perceived orreceived, and it's perfectly
valid for that person to receiveit and perceive in.
They don't have to accept thatyou, you didn't mean it in that
way, and then maybe you wouldlook at yourself and then go
maybe if I'm in that situationagain with that person, I might
(43:33):
try a different way ofexpressing that so that maybe
they did hear it a differentway.
Because like I say, the onlyperson's behavior you can change
is your own.
That's the only person'sbehavior you are in control of
or can change is your own.
So again, we always go back tolooking at yourself within the
context of it, but I thinkhearing and understanding how
(43:55):
the child feels is reallyimportant for reflective
practice.
And reflecting on then is thereanything else I can do
differently?
And I know even in myself as anadult from, managing people,
working in differentorganizations, not even working
with children.
I've sat on my over overnightand reflected and thought oh
God, did I really say that inthat meeting?
(44:16):
And I've got this response.
Next time I'm gonna do itdifferently.
And it might take me quite awhile to reflect and a number of
times to reflect on the samething, to change what I'm doing,
to get a different responsebecause it's a process.
It's not that you're just gonnasay it once and change, it's a
process, but you have to be opento that process of always
continually coming back toyourself.
(44:37):
And I don't mean that in aselfish way.
I mean that in a reflective way.
But also not beating yourself upabout it.
If you don't get it right, it'sokay not to get it right.
Like I said, as parents at somepoint in our children's lives,
we're not particularly great.
All of us, every one of us.
And that's absolutely okay.
(44:59):
Yeah.
It's okay because it's life andwe do the best we do at the time
that we do it.
With the hope that we're doingthe right thing.
And then we might reflect on itlater and think, oh actually,
and that's okay too.
That's absolutely fine.
Reflect on that.
Learn from that, and just trysomething different.
It's okay.
But like I said, the societalexpectation that we should all
(45:23):
be perfect parents.
'cause everybody's judging us.
I think if you, if we take astep back and spend less time
worrying about what other peoplethink about us which I would say
to anybody about anything, we'dbe much happier in our lives and
much more contented really.
But that's a wider subject.
Philippa (45:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's as we're nearlyour hour, Angela, there's so
much more I could ask you, somaybe you'll have to come back
on.
Yeah.
But just as we are wrapping upthen, so you support children's
homes to do this.
I'll put a link in thedescription of this podcast to
your website for you for peopleto.
(46:01):
To get in touch with you, butyour job just generally just
give us a general overview ofhow you support children's homes
and what you do.
Angela (46:10):
Yeah.
So I, the, in, within theregulations, there's something
called a regulation 44 visitorat any home that's opted,
registered, has to have somebodyindependent go in every month.
And view the record, speak tochildren, speak to the staff,
and write a report withrecommendations for improvement
as to whether they are meetingregulations or developmental
(46:32):
recommendations.
And that's then sent to themanager and the responsible
individual, but also to Ted andthat report forms part.
What Ted can potentially use astheir key lines of inquiry when
they come to do an inspection.
That's number one.
Additionally, we providetraining things like
safeguarding.
My, I myself, my, my particularspecial specialty and passion is
(46:56):
management training.
And I am about to launch somesort of networking events within
the West Midlands aroundmanagement and management
training.
That's my passion because like Isaid at the beginning, it all
rises and falls.
On the management and thosebeing strong and resilient and
supported to do their role.
We also provide support topeople who are opening
children's homes in terms of theprocess and what they need and
(47:19):
what they don't need.
General consultancy in terms ofstrategic support and
development of their children'shomes, organizations anything,
everything really to do withchildren's residential care and
actually now more as wellsupported accommodation.
'cause they're also now in theprocess of being registered by
Osted.
They have to be 16 to 18, arenow registered with Osted, or
(47:42):
some of them are on the way.
So some also do things like mockinspections, reviews, audits,
all sorts of different things,but focused on improving the
service, moving it forward,developing it and that type of
thing.
Really.
Philippa (47:57):
Okay.
And so people can get a hold ofyou through the website.
Yeah.
If they want to have aconversation with you or think
about absolutely.
Any of these services.
That's wonderful.
Angela, thank you so much foryour time on our podcast.
Thank you.
And we look forward to speakingto you again at some point in
the future.
Angela (48:15):
Thank you.
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