August 1, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of Pondering Play and Therapy, host Philippa welcomes Matt, a senior practitioner at CAPA First Response. Matt shares his expertise on child-to-parent aggression, detailing different forms of violence and aggression, and the importance of addressing these behaviours early. Matt emphasises the need for understanding and strengthening the parent-child relationship through effective communication and play. He also discusses CAPA's unique online support services and his background in community therapy and pastoral care. This episode provides valuable insights and hope for families dealing with challenging behaviours.
Website: https://capafirstresponse.org/
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Episode Transcript
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Philippa (00:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
(00:03):
Therapy with me Philippa.
And this week my guest is Matt.
And Matt is the seniorpractitioner for Capa First
Response.
He supports families directlyand supervises team of
practitioners.
He has been with Capa for twoyears and in that time has
helped introduce their groupwork and drop in services, as
(00:26):
well as launching the CAPA firstresponse podcast.
He has also worked with familiesand young people for over a
decade in a wide range ofsettings, including pastoral
roles in school, supportingvictims and perpetrators of
violent crime within the NHS.
And as a solution focuspractitioner supporting families
(00:47):
experiencing harmful andaggressive behavior from
children towards their parents.
Matt is an accredited solutionfocus practitioner, as well as a
Travis stock and PortmanFoundation trained community
therapy facilitator.
He is dedicated to empoweringfamilies and individuals to find
(01:07):
solutions that work for them andenable them to feel at their
best more of the time.
So welcome Matt to pondering andplay, and we are really grateful
that you've given up your timeto be here.
Matt (01:21):
Thanks for having me, Philippa.
It's good to be here.
Thank you very much.
Yes,
Philippa (01:25):
no problem.
So I've used an abbreviation,capa.
Yeah, but it stands for child.
Against parent aggression canyou just tell us just a little
bit more about that, Matt?
Matt (01:38):
Yeah.
It's a little bit, this is a bitof a wobbly area because the
definition of this behavior isstill a little bit uncertain,
but essentially, so you may haveheard of it as CAPA or CPA child
to parent abuse capa.
Child against parent violenceand aggression.
There's lots of differentacronyms, lots of different
(01:58):
names.
Essentially it is describing thebehaviors of a child using
violence and aggression towardsa parent or a caregiver.
Whether that be violent violencein terms of.
Physical violence.
It could be verbal aggression.
It can be financial it's, it canbe sexual violence as well.
(02:21):
Essentially it's behaviors thatare harmful from a child to the
parent.
This is not, we're not talkingabout a child having a tantrum
and every now and then, behaviorthat's really difficult to
manage.
This is regular and this is apattern of behavior that, that
is really harmful.
Philippa (02:39):
So it's more than typically developing child
behavior.
'cause all children, or not all,but a lot of children will hit
out at their parents at allstages, whether they're
toddlers, even in that mid agewhere they've got some
frustration, they might slap aparent's hand away or even give
them a little punch or somethinglike that.
But then there's, it's abehavior that's not repeated.
(03:02):
It might happen once or twice inthat parental child
relationship.
This is something that's moresustained and on a much more
regular basis.
Matt (03:12):
Yeah.
And it's also about the severityof the behaviors and the
responses what we always talkabout is, are you scared of your
child's response?
Because it may be a child pushesthe hand away and you're there.
Whoa.
Okay.
Where did that come from?
And there's a kind of, hopefullythere's a inquisitiveness and an
interest.
Wow.
Okay.
Something's going on here foryou right now.
(03:34):
If it's more of a one-offincident.
There's gonna be a verydifferent response to, if this
is a something that keeps onhappening and you become afraid
of what may happen if you saythe wrong thing or if you put a
boundary in place that yourchild doesn't like it's about
that feeling of walking oneggshells and being afraid of
your child, essentially.
Philippa (03:51):
That's very difficult that eggshell walking in when
you wake up in the morning andyou don't know what's gonna
happen in your house, in yourrelationships.
And have you always worked inwith families in this way or is
this something that you've builtexpertise up, to end up where
you are now?
Matt (04:08):
No, I haven't always worked.
Exactly in this field, but it'ssomething that I've been
interested in and come acrossfor almost 15 years in my work
with children, young people andtheir families.
And I've always been reallyinterested in that parent child
relationship and that dynamicand thinking when observing
(04:28):
this.
So I started off working inschools.
Initially it was a really a stopgap thing.
I got a job as a TA in a school.
And then from there I veryquickly was like, oh, Matt, you
can do these interventions.
It was pastoral care.
Suddenly everything was okay.
We didn't have learning mentorsin the school at the time I
(04:49):
basically ended up.
Taking on a lot of that work.
Philippa (04:52):
So when you say pastoral care what's that?
Matt (04:55):
So thinking about our social, emotional, mental health
support that we'd be offering tochildren.
Children who were struggling toaccess.
Education because they weren'table to behave in the way that
teachers needed them to see thembehave in a classroom to, to be
able to stay in the class.
So working with those childrenthat there may be the
possibility of them not beingable to stay in mainstream
(05:16):
schools.
So maybe being moved to pupilreferral units or more
specialist schools.
So it was working with thosechildren on what was actually
going on for them on anemotional level thinking about
their behavior and theirresponses.
And then I became in that schoolthat I worked at initially
community cohesion officer, soworking with parents in
(05:36):
enhancing engagement withparents in the school.
And then, yeah, I think everyschool I worked at the heads
were always right.
You need to train to become ateacher mat.
And I almost buckled and Ialmost did it.
And I enrolled on a teachertraining course.
And immediately I was like, Idon't wanna do this because I
see the importance of makingsure children are happy first
rather than their academicachievement.
(05:59):
'cause happy children willfulfill their potential.
They want to do well, kids whoare feeling okay and supported
and feel like they, their needsbeing met in that environment
are gonna do well.
So yeah, I backed outta that andtook a different path moved away
from education and followed mypassion in terms of thinking
about those relationships andsupporting people in terms of
(06:20):
their mental health.
Philippa (06:21):
When I read out your brief, I read out about the
Travis Stock com PortmanFoundation trained Community
Therapy facilitator.
I've never heard of that.
That, and I have been around forquite a few years and that is
something, and so can you tellme.
Matt (06:39):
Yeah,
Philippa (06:39):
primarily.
Matt (06:39):
Tavistock and Portman Foundation is a found NHS
Foundation in London.
And they ran a project calledThe Thinking Space Project in
Haringey in London, which iswhere I was living at the time.
And it was launched by Dr.
Frank Low, initially it waslaunched in response to the
riots that happened in London.
And specifically around theTottenham area as well.
(07:01):
And I think it was 20, 20 11 or2012, I think.
Wow.
So quite
Philippa (07:05):
a way back.
Matt (07:06):
Yeah.
And it was thinking about a wayto help the community recover
from what they'd experienced.
And thinking of that thecommunity there, they, there's.
There was a high chance thatthose, the people in that
community would not engage intraditional therapy.
They would not for a start,probably have the resources but
(07:28):
also culturally there's a highchance that's not something that
they would choose to engage in.
There was a lot of evidencearound community therapy that
was launched in in Brazil.
And then there was a model thatwas built, and I can't remember
the initial study and the personwho set it up over there.
But this was something that waspicked up by Dr.
Frank Low.
And he was really interested inthis especially working with
(07:52):
black communities in in Haringeyand in Tottenham.
An ethnic, minority backgroundcommunities there and it was
proven to be something that wasmuch more effective and that,
that actually offered somethingthat these communities could
engage with.
So as part of one of my roleswhen I was working I was working
(08:15):
in a hospital in Soham.
North Middlesex Hospital whichhad a program running which
supported victims andperpetrators of violent crime.
It's a very high it's, it was aninterrupting violence initiative
essentially because it has oneof the highest, that area in
London.
And that hospital in particularhas one of the highest.
(08:35):
Rates of violent crime orpatients coming in as a result
of violent crime in the wholecountry.
Yeah.
So I was working with a lot ofpeople who were affiliated with
gangs or sometimes people werein the wrong place at the wrong
time, but the amount of violentcrime there meant that.
It was gang related or it wasgang adjacent, if you get what I
mean.
Yeah.
And through that work thinkingspace basically reached out to
(08:57):
people in the community to trainto be facilitators for these
thinking spaces.
So it's people who were workingin the community had an
understanding of the issues thatthe community were facing,
people that could, facilitatethese groups?
Again, thinking about the peoplethat were coming and I'm a white
middle class man, so I'm notpretending that i'm from the
(09:18):
streets and I grew up, inHackney in the city of London.
I've grown up around theseissues.
I've worked around these issues,most of my professional life.
So I have an understanding ofit.
Anyway, so through all my workthere, I asked if I'd like to
train and that was trained by,Dr.
Frank Low himself who launchedthe scheme.
And from there joined thinkingspace Group in Haring Gay.
(09:43):
And from there trained as aco-facilitator and then
facilitated groups myself.
I no longer live in Hering Gaynow.
So I'm no longer running thosegroups.
But a lot of the skills that Ilearned there and that I
developed there have been reallyuseful for my work moving
forward as well.
Philippa (10:00):
So did those groups take place in the community?
In the community Yeah.
The churches, the communityhall.
Exactly.
Matt (10:06):
Yeah.
So it was run initially in achurch hall in Tottenham.
But actually this was around thetime of lockdown as well.
So it started off as a physicalcommunity.
We then had to take it onlinewhich brought its own
difficulties, but then it was ata time that was really needed as
well.
A lot of people who wouldn't beable to engage in who needed
(10:27):
this?
But a lot of other services andplaces where they would've
otherwise interacted were takenaway.
They weren't able to meet peoplein those physical spaces.
So I think it became reallyimportant space for people
online as well.
But yeah, and then back to,physical spaces afterwards.
But I actually think now thatthe project has finished sadly
which is a real shame becausethe benefit.
(10:48):
And the need for it was reallyhigh and the engagement was
really high.
Philippa (10:52):
That's what I was gonna ask.
Did people engage in it becauseyou Yeah.
You can imagine that, Julie andI have recently done a.
An episode on deprivation incommunities that are
disadvantaged.
I live in the North, Julie livesactually not far from Hackney in
London and all right.
And we can see in, in some ofour communities the.
(11:13):
They are very disadvantaged bypoverty.
Really?
Yeah.
And by lack of resources and bylack of spaces and things like
that.
So anything I imagine that cancreate a sense of community and
communities that are feeling.
Fractured from maybe other partsof their own community and
especially the country.
(11:34):
Yeah.
Can be helpful.
So did you get engagement then?
Matt (11:37):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, and it was really positive.
And I think it, the communityaspect is so important.
People just coming together,being in the same space.
But equally the focus being thisis a therapeutic.
Community.
So that is even more specialbecause it's one thing to come
(11:58):
together and we talk about thisand maybe things, conversations
will happen and there will be atherapeutic element to it and
people feel seen and understoodand they build relationships
that are really enriching fortheir lives.
But this was designed to createthat community and for that
community to be therapeutic andto be facilitated, but actually
the therapy is happeningbetween.
(12:20):
Group members as well.
And I think that was somethingthat was so important because if
you'd, if you come in as theexpert and try and lead in a way
that will turn people off orreject it, that unless you are
properly part of our community.
Then you don't necessarilyunderstand.
(12:41):
So we are gonna facilitate thisspace for you to understand and
for you to move through it andfor you to begin to process
what's happened, what is goingon, what are the challenges
you're facing and explore thattogether in a really safe space,
safe community where it's reallyheld and it's, the focus though
is on that therapeutic aspect.
Philippa (13:00):
And did that, do you think, help to reduce some of
the violence around thosecommunities?
Some of those tensions thatmaybe have been in there within
the communities?
Yeah.
Or did it help?
Sorry, go on, Philippe.
I was gonna say, or did it helpthem?
Kind of create a narrativearound what was happening for
them.
So in, in itself that sharedexperience, can it become
(13:26):
therapeutic that we are havingthe shared experience that, that
I'm not alone within this.
Yeah.
Even if you can't change what'sgoing on, there's the, yeah,
there's the share.
Matt (13:37):
That's something that we talk about all the time.
There are things that you can'tchange.
There are things that are just.
Bad, that feel bad for you, thatare a pain.
It's a painful experience.
It's difficult, but like yousay, sharing in that difficulty
and actually bringing it tolight and, am I right to it?
I feel scared here.
What, what's going on?
I, conflicting feelings about.
(14:00):
People who maybe have had youngpeople in their lives who had
engaged in these riots what'syour thought about that?
This is my grandson, this is myson and I love them, but I can't
condone what happened.
Actually, can we hold theseconflicting ideas?
Can we hold these reallydifficult, challenging feelings?
And how does that how do Irelate to my, the rest of my
(14:21):
community?
Do you feel the same way?
I do.
Alright.
How have you got through it?
What's been useful for me?
What's, will that work for me?
I'm not sure we can explore ittogether though.
What difference would it makeif, for instance, so we've got
someone over here who's saying Iwant to forgive my grandson, but
I can't, can you want to, what?
Why do you wanna do that?
(14:41):
What difference would it make ifyou could, okay, let's explore
that and let's, and then you canexplore that as a group.
And I don't know it.
We'd have to look into theresearch to look at the efficacy
of it and see, that the impactit made.
But when I did my training, Iwas obviously working in the a
and e department north MiddlesexHospital.
There was a lot of other, therewas youth workers who were
(15:02):
working with a lot of youngpeople who were affiliated with
gangs.
And, the idea being that we weregoing to start.
Separate different thinkingspaces within with our different
cohorts.
Again, COVID really came at thewrong time because as we were
finishing our training and itwas hard to actually be setting
up these groups in physicalspaces that were probably gonna
(15:25):
make it easier for some peopleto engage.
But it was a really interesting,really powerful, project, and I
feel privileged to have been apart of it.
And also to have learn from,Frank Low, who was just a really
inspirational man.
And his dedication to his workand his community was really
inspiring to be honest.
Philippa (15:44):
I am definitely gonna go and Google this and do some
reading about it.
Once we've finished thisconversation, Matt, but I
suppose when you were talkingabout the skills that you were
using and the conversations youwere having in that community it
made me think about families,where children are being violent
with within an aggressiontowards parents because parents
(16:09):
can have those feelings too,can't they, about their child.
When you are in that moment ofbeing scared about your child,
not knowing what's gonna happenor having been hurt by your
child, you can have thoseconflicting emotions, this is
not okay.
Put, you are my kid and you aremy world.
And how do you balance those?
(16:30):
I'm guessing you're working withquite a lot with that now in the
role that you are in.
Matt (16:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
So my work now is directly withfamily.
So I'm still a practitionerworking, doing, we do drop-ins,
which are weekly drop-ins thatanyone can join.
So people can just come in, dropin, ask questions, be in a space
with other parents who areexperiencing similar behaviors.
Philippa (16:53):
I should have said before that you are online,
aren't you?
So when you are saying anybody,it literally means anybody.
Anyone.
It's not in a community.
Like it's not, there's nophysical space for this.
Exactly.
It's so yeah, just tell us aboutwhere you are and how it's
accessed and then tell us aboutit really.
Matt (17:14):
Yeah.
So Capa first response was setup by our CEO founder Jane
Griffiths, In response to thefact that it is such a postcode
lottery in terms of what supportmight be available in your
geographical location if you areexperiencing child-parent
violence and aggression.
So in some areas there is greatsupport available in other
(17:35):
areas, there is nothing for ahundred, 200 miles.
And then what do you do?
This is a very tricky, thing todeal with, essentially.
There's a lot of stigma, a lotof shame around this.
Parents are afraid to even askfor help.
And then what happens if you askfor help and people go, oh, I
don't really know what to say toyou.
There's nothing we can do to,that, that's even more painful.
(17:56):
So Jane set up Capa firstresponse as a remote
organization.
So all our support is online, soit doesn't matter where you are
in the country, we've supportedpeople.
In Australia in America, I thinkin different places in Europe.
Our funding is for the UKthough.
So we are funded to supportanyone anywhere in the uk.
(18:16):
So essentially all you need todo is go to a website click on a
button that says Get in contact.
And we can take it from there.
We do operate a contributionbased service.
So if you feel that you wouldlike to contribute, then we
welcome that.
But you don't have to, and wewill support anyone regardless
because.
(18:36):
This is an issue that we knowpeople suffer within in silence.
And it has, the ripple effectsof this are so far reaching and
it's just so important thatpeople feel that they can get
support as early as possible aswell.
We don't want people to waituntil this is four, five years
down the line, and we don't wantpeople to say yeah, it was, it's
always been difficult, but whenthey were 5, 6, 7.
(18:59):
I could manage it, but nowthey're 13, 14, 15.
This is now really scary.
This is I can't handle this.
We would much prefer people soonas they start thinking something
doesn't feel quite right here,get in contact with us.
We can support you.
We can help you think about itand give you some ideas for
things that may be useful andbasically start building that
(19:22):
relationship with your childstart doing things that are
helpful to reconnect.
Because in most instances, 99times outta a hundred, there is
an issue in terms of therelationship, in terms of the
communication.
And that bond, there's somethingthat is insecure, that there's
(19:43):
something that's got a littlebit wobbly.
And our, all of our work isfocused on strengthening that
child, parent relationship andstrengthening the communication
both ways.
So a child is more able tocommunicate what's going on for
them.
So a parent is more able tocommunicate that they are paying
attention to that child.
So that child's hearing andwitnessing you get this, you can
(20:06):
see what's going on for me.
That's where we focus, that'swhere our work always starts.
Philippa (20:12):
Because I suppose I work with families where there's
violence within it.
And I think often parents feelguilt.
A huge amount of guilt.
Especially'cause lots offamilies I work with are
adoptive families.
So they've had been through thisjourney to.
To prove, I'm saying thatinverted comment.
Yeah.
That they're gonna be greatparents so that they can have
(20:36):
the family that they want, andthen they have this child that
they, fall in love with, wantthis family life with and then
there's this.
Aggression that goes on withinit.
Yeah.
So often for lots of complexreasons but I think that
families then find that reallydifficult to talk about.
(20:57):
Yeah.
And if they do, say, if, if.
Extended family members see itor they'll say, oh, just do
Matt (21:04):
Oh yeah.
Philippa (21:04):
Just do stuff.
Like they've been there, they'vedone that.
And so they become isolated andstop talking about it.
Matt (21:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
People, I think that's somethingthat comes up all the time is,
yeah.
My brother said, oh, you justneed to be stricter.
My mum has said, if you just hadsome firmer boundaries, oh no,
you come on, you just, it's.
This is about what you've done.
You are getting this wrong.
And I think especially in thoseadopted families where this,
(21:33):
depending on when that childcame to not, look, we can be
almost certain.
There's been some trauma in thatchild's early life.
They have lost, at the veryleast, they have lost their
family, their birth family,families at the start.
There is trauma there.
That's not your fault.
That will never be your fault.
That is going to have an impacton their ability to connect with
(21:55):
you and their ability to have arelationship with you.
Their early experiences of beingparented are in some cases more
traumatic than others.
But you can't do anything aboutthat child will in all
likelihood have a difficulty inconnecting with you and trusting
that parent figure.
(22:15):
They may say, I don't want aparent, they don't want to be
parented, because actually I'vehad an experience of that and I
don't want to go through thatagain.
And so it's understanding thatthis is, not your fault.
And the behavior you are seeingis not directed necessarily
towards you.
It's directed towards maybe whatyou represent or the fear that
(22:36):
child has about that kind ofrelationship and that
connection.
But I think that feeling ofguilt and shame is always
present in nearly all thefamilies we talk to.
And it's not helped by the factthat so many professionals that
they talk to exacerbate thatproblem.
They do say you should have donethis, right?
This is because you didn't dothat, you're not putting in
(22:57):
enough firm boundaries.
You're being too weak.
So then the parent tries torespond to that and goes, oh my
God, I'm doing a terrible job.
Let me put more boundaries inplace.
Let me be firm and the problemgets worse.
And you didn't do it quite rightthen.
Maybe you didn't.
And then they're just, they'regoing in circles.
And then so the parents startsdoubting themselves becoming
really self-critical and thatdoesn't help.
(23:17):
And yeah, it's, I feel so muchcompassion for the parents who
come to us because what they'refacing is one of the most
difficult things they can faceas a parent.
And the support when they do,pluck up the courage to ask for
help, to ask for support.
Sometimes it just makes itworse.
And it's just heartbreaking,because in worst cases they just
(23:37):
go I'm not doing that again.
And so then they suffer insilence.
And the problem either juststays as it is or it gets worse
and things get to a place forfamily breakdown potentially.
And in this situation, everyoneloses the child loses, the
parent loses, siblings lose.
It's just yeah, a reallydifficult situation.
Philippa (23:57):
And I think can happen is that family's own support
network starts to disappear aswell.
So the professional help maybeisn't what it needs to be,
doesn't have the understanding,but then their own support
network, so there's no respite.
'cause they don't go to granny'sanymore or they don't go out
with aunt anymore, or they can'tgo to the Saturday morning club
(24:21):
anymore because even if theydon't misbehave.
And again, I'm saying that in,in yeah.
Yeah.
In quoted commerce there, theparents know that when they come
home that the wobbles are gonnabe so big that the violence is
gonna occur.
It's not worth
Matt (24:35):
even trying to go.
Philippa (24:36):
So they end up very insular then, don't they?
With this massive emotional Idon't even know how to describe
it, but emotionally, it must beso hard to be going through that
with your child seeing yourchild distressed and that
distress being displayed inviolence.
Matt (24:55):
Absolutely.
I think it's one of those thingsthat I talk about quite a lot
with parents though, and I thinkwe might have talked about
either ear before we startedtalking or earlier in the
conversation, I can't remember.
But that balance, finding thatbalance.
I'm not even finding thebalance, but on the one hand,
you've got the parent issuffering themselves so much
because you have a child thatyou love dearly using this
(25:16):
violence and aggression againstyou.
And often, I hear parents say, Ilove my child, but I do not like
them.
I don't want be around them andit's, so that's something really
tricky to hold there.
What does this mean?
That I've, I know I love mychild and I do want what's best
for them, but.
I don't like'em now because ofthe behavior they're using,
because of what they're doing tome.
(25:37):
But then also on the other handsaying I'm so scared for my
child's future.
I can see the distress they'rein.
I know that they're strugglingso much and this is where this
behavior's coming from, andyou've, I.
And the weight, you're justcarrying weight all over the
place.
The weight for you as a personto protect yourself, the weight
you're carrying for your childto try and protect them.
Lot talk to lots of parents andthey, the fear of their, of,
(26:00):
criminalizing their child attimes.
We talk a lot with parents aboutwhen to call the police and how
to call the police in a helpfulway.
And I completely think thatthere's times when you have to
go calling the police issomething.
I may have to do if I cannotkeep us safe in this home, if I
know that actually this is gonnabe dangerous for all of us, I
may have to call the police.
(26:21):
But parents fear about callingthe police.
I couldn't do that to my childbecause what if they, if they
get arrested, the impact that'sgonna have on their future.
And then the impact that's gonnahave on our relationship.
That betrayal, it can feel liketo call the police and,'cause
it's seen as a punitive measure.
A lot we talk about with parentsis actually, this isn't a
punitive measure.
This is, you are not doing thisto punish your child.
(26:41):
You will be doing this to keepeveryone safe.
To make sure that actually maybeI can't keep everyone safe
myself as the parent, but thatdoesn't mean that I'm going to
say we just can't be safe athome.
Then I'm still gonna dosomething to make sure we are
safe.
And that's a really powerfulboundary that I think parents
can set.
But again, it's that conflictingidea of, I dunno what, what the
(27:03):
best way course of action is totake it and how conflicting
parents feel just adds toconfusion.
And parents shutting down in away and just not being able to
move forward, or not being ableto make a positive choice for
their family.
Because of all the thingsthey're balancing, all the
things they're juggling.
So part of our support ishelping parents to think things
(27:24):
through a little clearer aswell.
And actually what would lookgood for you?
Let's imagine that.
Things were going a little bitbetter for you as a family, what
might that look like?
And let's explore that.
What could be positive for yourfamily?
What would be the next smallstep that we can take?
And then start to move forward.
And I think that ability to lookat those small steps and
actually reflect back.
'cause I think parents arealways really amazed at how
(27:47):
quickly they can start noticingpositive change through working
with us.
It's really incredible, like howquickly and how impactful the
support can be.
But a big part of that isreflecting on those small
changes and the self-efficacythat builds and the agency that
parent suddenly feels, I am ableto make an impact Here.
I can see actually there's a wayout of this because hope is just
(28:09):
so important for a parent tosee.
There is a different futurepossible here, just'cause I'm
seeing this at my child is doingthis at 11, it doesn't mean that
I can, predict exactly what'sgonna be happening at 1617.
There are alternative partsshooting off all the time, which
is we've gotta be aware andwe've got to pay attention to
(28:30):
the small signs that tell us adifferent possibility is there
for us.
Philippa (28:34):
Absolutely.
Julie and I would I guess fromour perspective, think about how
play could help in those smallmoments.
We often talk about.
The pressure that parents areunder to do all this amazing
parenting that you see on socialmedia in TikTok.
That actually just isn't real.
No.
At all.
And just having, two minutes ofplayfulness can actually change
(28:58):
the course of the next hour,course by blowing bubbles outta
the when you're washing up orwhatever it is.
I don't know if play comes intoto your.
Suggestions or thoughts
Matt (29:10):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we talk about the parentchild game quite a bit and doing
that with parents.
So setting aside some toboundary time to play with your
child, to be present, to observewhat they're doing, to let them
lead bring that playfulness in.
Because I think in thatinstance, what you're doing is
you are building thatconnection.
You are building thatcommunication.
(29:31):
You respond to what's going on,what the other person is doing,
and there's that languagebuilding, okay, as I, when I do
this, you do this.
Okay, we can, but in a positiveway.
So yeah, absolutely.
I think play is really importantfor the younger or the parents.
With the younger children we, wetalk with, that's something we
talk about quite a lot.
And then for older children itis just.
We talk a lot about invites tospend time an invitation, not a,
(29:56):
would you like to do this withme, yes or no?
I'm not gonna do it if you don'twanna do it with me.
But a kind of, oh, I'm thinkingit'd be cool to, maybe we could
watch this film together.
I'm gonna get a pizza, orwhatever it might be.
But to have a connection thatisn't problem focused because of
very often families when they'reseeing this behavior, they can
find it so many of theirinteractions are based around
(30:21):
this problem they're witnessingwithin their family.
And so then that's all anyonesees, that's all anyone feels,
that's all anyone knows abouttheir connection as a family
unit is this problem.
That's the narrative thatbuilds.
So introducing those elements orthose times of connection that
are playful, that are separatefrom the problem that I just.
(30:43):
This is just a nice thing and wecan do that.
I think it's massively importantand I think, as I said earlier
on, it comes back to thatconnection, that communication,
that sort of, when you'replaying that, oh, okay, I can
see what you're doing there.
Oh, I'm gonna respond in thisway, and that it's so vitally
important.
All of our work is built around.
(31:05):
Building that communication.
That is, I am paying attentionto what you are doing.
I'm paying attention to what'sgoing on in your world.
I'm paying attention to what'simportant to you.
And setting aside.
So when we talk about thatparent-child game is setting
aside that time where you letthat child lead to play and you
say, I'm gonna observe what'sgoing on, and I'm gonna see
what's important to you.
(31:25):
You tell me what we're gonnaplay.
I'm not gonna correct you, I'mgonna just show you that I'm
really there with you.
Ah, okay.
Okay so we're playing with thecrayons.
Cool.
What would you like me to do?
Oh, you need to draw a pictureof a house.
Okay.
I'm gonna draw a picture.
Not like that.
I want it to be a house with, 10windows.
Okay.
I'm gonna draw a house with 10windows, and it's showing that
(31:46):
attentiveness and showing that,proving that kind of
communication is there intact ina way that is enjoyable.
It's playful.
It's super important.
Philippa (31:57):
And I imagine it's a different bodily experience
because when you've got thataggression, frustration, anger
going on.
Your body is feeling one way,and we can get used to being in
that way of feeling, yeah.
And that fight, flight, freeze,that kind of really
hypervigilant stuff.
Whereas when you are playing,you can't be in fight, flight,
(32:17):
freeze.
You've got to be in your wholebrain and your whole nervous
system, and your whole body isexperiencing something.
Very different in the being.
Yeah.
As well as in the knowing youare experiencing being calmer.
You are experiencing beingconnected in a different way
because you are connected inthat aggression point.
(32:38):
It's a very different experiencein the body
Matt (32:41):
absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that can.
It can be quite tricky thoughfor parents.
They spend so much time,thinking about the window of
tolerance and being in thatplace where we are.
Okay.
Here.
And then in that place of, hyperarousal where you spend so much
time, like you're saying fromthat fight, flight or freeze
response where you are on edgeand i've got to watch what I'm
saying.
If I say the wrong thing,something's gonna explode.
(33:03):
Looking for the signs from yourchild.
Okay, here we go.
Something's building here.
And, but because of that, youcan you do stop seeing other
small signs.
And there are bits ofcommunication that are lost
because of that, that need to bealert to danger.
So yeah when you can introduceplay and you can bring a
different.
(33:23):
Quality, to that awareness andhow it feels for you in that
moment.
That's really important.
But I think it can be reallytricky for parents to get to
that place where they canactually allow themselves or
feel safe enough to, to getthere really?
To engage in that play.
Because very often it may notfeel safe.
Yeah.
Philippa (33:41):
And the child then picks up that the adult is still
in that hyper aware state.
So that communicates back to thechild while they must.
Be something unsafe here becauseYeah something's wrong here.
Yeah.
So I can't just relax and play.
Whereas if you can both get downand play with the Play-Doh or
run around the park or whateverit is you're doing in a
different state, that you areboth I suppose that
(34:04):
communication to the child assaying, actually, you are now
with a safe adult in a safespace.
You don't need to have your kindof hyper-awareness up or your
fight protection around.
Matt (34:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we talk a lot withparents about communication and
how much we think about ourcommunication in terms of the
words we're saying.
We try and communicateeverything through what we're
saying to our child, and we veryoften ignore.
The bulk of our communication,which is happening through our,
nonverbal cues and our tone ofvoice.
And you might be saying, no,everything's fine, but
(34:39):
everything really is screamingto your child.
We are not fine.
Things are very dangerous here.
Things are very uncertain.
We are on, really shaky groundand bringing an awareness to the
rest of your communication thatcan actually say, we're okay
here.
This is all right.
We can both allow ourselves tobe with each other and we're
gonna be safe.
So yeah it's really importantthat we pay attention to all of
(35:02):
our communication, the messagesthat we're giving off in terms
of safety.
Because for most of our,families and the children that
we're working with, they do notfeel safe, which is why we're
seeing this response and whichis why there's this.
Very often, parents will talk,they need to be in control.
If they don't get it their way,then they'll kick off.
(35:22):
And it's where does that needfor control come from?
What's the root of that?
All of our work, we're alwayssaying, it's really important
that we understand what thebehavior is and what we're
seeing.
Name that and go this is what'sgoing, we see going on.
But why are we seeing that?
Why is, why does this responseexist?
What purpose does it serve foryour child?
Why do they need to respond inthis way?
(35:43):
So yeah, I think that's alwaysreally important with all our
work is going.
Yeah, looking at the why,really.
Philippa (35:50):
So what, one last question just before we wrap up.
What about families wherechildren maybe are, have got
neurodiversity?
So things like fetal alcoholsyndrome disorder, autism, A DHD
are you.
Still, you still offer supportto those families?
(36:10):
Absolutely.
Matt (36:11):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's actually the majorityof the families we work with the
family's neurodiverse, whetherthat's one or more people in the
family's neurodivergent.
So yeah, we absolutely work withneurodiverse families.
And really, again, it comes backto what was saying there, it's
because a child isneurodivergent, does not mean
(36:31):
that they're gonna be violent oraggressive.
Okay.
Autism or A DHD or, whatever itmay be, is not going to make
someone fine or aggressive, butthe difficulty that comes along
with that Can, that can be theproblem.
That can be the weight.
That means they are unable tocope, but they go to that fight,
flight, or freeze place.
(36:51):
A lot of our work is, as I said,focused on that connection and
that communication and thatworks regardless.
Philippa (37:00):
So I guess what you're saying is it's, so for somebody
to say maybe who's been exposedto alcohol and neutral sometimes
what we know is that whenthere's lots of demands on them,
yeah it's really hard for themto process all those demands in
one go.
Yeah.
And then it can.
Create that feelings offrustration and oh my gosh, I
dunno what I'm doing.
(37:21):
And then from that can come thelashing out.
But actually, if we can reducehow parents think about actually
how do we reduce those demands?
How do go on.
Matt (37:32):
Yeah.
It's having that.
Having compassion towards yourchild.
Not as, say, obviously parentsalways have compassion, but
especially if the parent isneurotypical and they have a
neurodivergent child, they willnever fully understand the
experience of life their childhas and so for them they'd be
like what was the problem?
(37:54):
There was no issue there.
It was fine.
Like I just told you to go andput your shoes on and it's
thinking, what is the child'sexperience of that?
Are they able to tolerate, isthat too much what you've just
done?
It may seem fine for you and inyour experiences that is not a
problem, but what's theexperience for the child?
And I think it's stepping backand understanding your child's
needs and going right.
You are giving me signals thattell me that you've got a big
(38:16):
problem with this, that this istoo much for you.
So am I able to communicate toyou that I'm paying attention to
this problem that feelsunmanageable for you?
You cannot tolerate what's goingon and you are communicating
this to me how do I show youthat I've picked up on the
severity of this for you?
How do I make that really clear,and how do I then respond with
(38:38):
that in mind?
Do I then go, oh, come and stopmaking a fuss, and no, if we
don't do that, then actuallywe're gonna be late for this.
Am I gonna carry on talking?
Putting more pressure on thatthinking part of the brain
that's already just going, oh, Ican't cope.
Yeah.
Or am I gonna go, you are notactually coping with this at the
moment.
Let me respond in a more helpfulway.
Maybe I'm not gonna talk somuch.
Maybe we have to wait fiveminutes before we can continue
(39:01):
with the next bit of our plan ofthe day of whatever that may be.
But it's bringing an awarenessof that charge, experience of
life.
The best way to help themregulate.
And the brilliant thing is thatas that child starts to
experience their ability toregulate more, the narrative
around that child changes.
Philippa (39:18):
Their
Matt (39:19):
belief in their ability to regulate, improves, their
ability to regulate, improvestheir, the difficulty.
They're not carrying thedifficulty of, I'm a bad kid,
this is what I do, I hurtpeople.
And they no longer carry that,and they start to trust.
Mom, dad, grandma, granddad,whoever it is.
(39:40):
Do you know what?
They know how to help me whenI'm feeling angry.
When I'm feeling really fizzy,they know how to help me so I
can keep in control.
There's that trust that buildsagain, that actually you can
help me, not.
The problem, you keep talking tome and I just can't bear and I
explode.
And then actually I startlooking around going, no one
actually understands what myexperience of life is.
(40:02):
I'm gonna actually, I retreatinto myself and I'm the only one
who can protect myself.
And that, is a really sad anddangerous place to be.
Philippa (40:10):
I could ask you a million more questions about,
but I know that you've gotanother appointment in a couple
of minutes.
So thank you so much.
And maybe you'll come back in alittle while and tell us a
little bit more about how C'Sgoing and how your podcast going
and all those sorts of things.
But I will put a link to thewebsite on the bottom of this.
(40:31):
Brilliant description, andpeople can just click on that.
And there's a, there's, they alltell them easily.
There's literally a button.
It says, get in
Matt (40:39):
contact.
You just click on that button.
And we will get in contact andwe can start, we can take it
from there.
Philippa (40:44):
That's great.
And you also do a podcastyourselves, don't you, about
this.
So people can also find thatfrom your website if they want.
Matt (40:51):
The website or wherever you find your podcast.
It's Capa first responsepodcast.
So yeah, we've we are working onit all the time.
It's a yeah, I think there'salways a few more, seasons
planned before we've even gotthe next one out.
Jane likes to keep me on thetreadmill, Philippa.
Keeps me working.
Philippa (41:09):
That's good.
So thank you so much for yourtime today and taking this doing
this podcast with us.
Thank you very much, Matt.
Thanks.
Matt (41:17):
Thanks for having me.
Really appreciate it.
Welcome to this week's episode of Pondering Play and
(00:03):
Therapy with me Philippa.
And this week my guest is Matt.
And Matt is the seniorpractitioner for Capa First
Response.
He supports families directlyand supervises team of
practitioners.
He has been with Capa for twoyears and in that time has
helped introduce their groupwork and drop in services, as
(00:26):
well as launching the CAPA firstresponse podcast.
He has also worked with familiesand young people for over a
decade in a wide range ofsettings, including pastoral
roles in school, supportingvictims and perpetrators of
violent crime within the NHS.
And as a solution focuspractitioner supporting families
(00:47):
experiencing harmful andaggressive behavior from
children towards their parents.
Matt is an accredited solutionfocus practitioner, as well as a
Travis stock and PortmanFoundation trained community
therapy facilitator.
He is dedicated to empoweringfamilies and individuals to find
(01:07):
solutions that work for them andenable them to feel at their
best more of the time.
So welcome Matt to pondering andplay, and we are really grateful
that you've given up your timeto be here.
Matt (01:21):
Thanks for having me, Philippa.
It's good to be here.
Thank you very much.
Yes,
Philippa (01:25):
no problem.
So I've used an abbreviation,capa.
Yeah, but it stands for child.
Against parent aggression canyou just tell us just a little
bit more about that, Matt?
Matt (01:38):
Yeah.
It's a little bit, this is a bitof a wobbly area because the
definition of this behavior isstill a little bit uncertain,
but essentially, so you may haveheard of it as CAPA or CPA child
to parent abuse capa.
Child against parent violenceand aggression.
There's lots of differentacronyms, lots of different
(01:58):
names.
Essentially it is describing thebehaviors of a child using
violence and aggression towardsa parent or a caregiver.
Whether that be violent violencein terms of.
Physical violence.
It could be verbal aggression.
It can be financial it's, it canbe sexual violence as well.
(02:21):
Essentially it's behaviors thatare harmful from a child to the
parent.
This is not, we're not talkingabout a child having a tantrum
and every now and then, behaviorthat's really difficult to
manage.
This is regular and this is apattern of behavior that, that
is really harmful.
Philippa (02:39):
So it's more than typically developing child
behavior.
'cause all children, or not all,but a lot of children will hit
out at their parents at allstages, whether they're
toddlers, even in that mid agewhere they've got some
frustration, they might slap aparent's hand away or even give
them a little punch or somethinglike that.
But then there's, it's abehavior that's not repeated.
(03:02):
It might happen once or twice inthat parental child
relationship.
This is something that's moresustained and on a much more
regular basis.
Matt (03:12):
Yeah.
And it's also about the severityof the behaviors and the
responses what we always talkabout is, are you scared of your
child's response?
Because it may be a child pushesthe hand away and you're there.
Whoa.
Okay.
Where did that come from?
And there's a kind of, hopefullythere's a inquisitiveness and an
interest.
Wow.
Okay.
Something's going on here foryou right now.
(03:34):
If it's more of a one-offincident.
There's gonna be a verydifferent response to, if this
is a something that keeps onhappening and you become afraid
of what may happen if you saythe wrong thing or if you put a
boundary in place that yourchild doesn't like it's about
that feeling of walking oneggshells and being afraid of
your child, essentially.
Philippa (03:51):
That's very difficult that eggshell walking in when
you wake up in the morning andyou don't know what's gonna
happen in your house, in yourrelationships.
And have you always worked inwith families in this way or is
this something that you've builtexpertise up, to end up where
you are now?
Matt (04:08):
No, I haven't always worked.
Exactly in this field, but it'ssomething that I've been
interested in and come acrossfor almost 15 years in my work
with children, young people andtheir families.
And I've always been reallyinterested in that parent child
relationship and that dynamicand thinking when observing
(04:28):
this.
So I started off working inschools.
Initially it was a really a stopgap thing.
I got a job as a TA in a school.
And then from there I veryquickly was like, oh, Matt, you
can do these interventions.
It was pastoral care.
Suddenly everything was okay.
We didn't have learning mentorsin the school at the time I
(04:49):
basically ended up.
Taking on a lot of that work.
Philippa (04:52):
So when you say pastoral care what's that?
Matt (04:55):
So thinking about our social, emotional, mental health
support that we'd be offering tochildren.
Children who were struggling toaccess.
Education because they weren'table to behave in the way that
teachers needed them to see thembehave in a classroom to, to be
able to stay in the class.
So working with those childrenthat there may be the
possibility of them not beingable to stay in mainstream
(05:16):
schools.
So maybe being moved to pupilreferral units or more
specialist schools.
So it was working with thosechildren on what was actually
going on for them on anemotional level thinking about
their behavior and theirresponses.
And then I became in that schoolthat I worked at initially
community cohesion officer, soworking with parents in
(05:36):
enhancing engagement withparents in the school.
And then, yeah, I think everyschool I worked at the heads
were always right.
You need to train to become ateacher mat.
And I almost buckled and Ialmost did it.
And I enrolled on a teachertraining course.
And immediately I was like, Idon't wanna do this because I
see the importance of makingsure children are happy first
rather than their academicachievement.
(05:59):
'cause happy children willfulfill their potential.
They want to do well, kids whoare feeling okay and supported
and feel like they, their needsbeing met in that environment
are gonna do well.
So yeah, I backed outta that andtook a different path moved away
from education and followed mypassion in terms of thinking
about those relationships andsupporting people in terms of
(06:20):
their mental health.
Philippa (06:21):
When I read out your brief, I read out about the
Travis Stock com PortmanFoundation trained Community
Therapy facilitator.
I've never heard of that.
That, and I have been around forquite a few years and that is
something, and so can you tellme.
Matt (06:39):
Yeah,
Philippa (06:39):
primarily.
Matt (06:39):
Tavistock and Portman Foundation is a found NHS
Foundation in London.
And they ran a project calledThe Thinking Space Project in
Haringey in London, which iswhere I was living at the time.
And it was launched by Dr.
Frank Low, initially it waslaunched in response to the
riots that happened in London.
And specifically around theTottenham area as well.
(07:01):
And I think it was 20, 20 11 or2012, I think.
Wow.
So quite
Philippa (07:05):
a way back.
Matt (07:06):
Yeah.
And it was thinking about a wayto help the community recover
from what they'd experienced.
And thinking of that thecommunity there, they, there's.
There was a high chance thatthose, the people in that
community would not engage intraditional therapy.
They would not for a start,probably have the resources but
(07:28):
also culturally there's a highchance that's not something that
they would choose to engage in.
There was a lot of evidencearound community therapy that
was launched in in Brazil.
And then there was a model thatwas built, and I can't remember
the initial study and the personwho set it up over there.
But this was something that waspicked up by Dr.
Frank Low.
And he was really interested inthis especially working with
(07:52):
black communities in in Haringeyand in Tottenham.
An ethnic, minority backgroundcommunities there and it was
proven to be something that wasmuch more effective and that,
that actually offered somethingthat these communities could
engage with.
So as part of one of my roleswhen I was working I was working
(08:15):
in a hospital in Soham.
North Middlesex Hospital whichhad a program running which
supported victims andperpetrators of violent crime.
It's a very high it's, it was aninterrupting violence initiative
essentially because it has oneof the highest, that area in
London.
And that hospital in particularhas one of the highest.
(08:35):
Rates of violent crime orpatients coming in as a result
of violent crime in the wholecountry.
Yeah.
So I was working with a lot ofpeople who were affiliated with
gangs or sometimes people werein the wrong place at the wrong
time, but the amount of violentcrime there meant that.
It was gang related or it wasgang adjacent, if you get what I
mean.
Yeah.
And through that work thinkingspace basically reached out to
(08:57):
people in the community to trainto be facilitators for these
thinking spaces.
So it's people who were workingin the community had an
understanding of the issues thatthe community were facing,
people that could, facilitatethese groups?
Again, thinking about the peoplethat were coming and I'm a white
middle class man, so I'm notpretending that i'm from the
(09:18):
streets and I grew up, inHackney in the city of London.
I've grown up around theseissues.
I've worked around these issues,most of my professional life.
So I have an understanding ofit.
Anyway, so through all my workthere, I asked if I'd like to
train and that was trained by,Dr.
Frank Low himself who launchedthe scheme.
And from there joined thinkingspace Group in Haring Gay.
(09:43):
And from there trained as aco-facilitator and then
facilitated groups myself.
I no longer live in Hering Gaynow.
So I'm no longer running thosegroups.
But a lot of the skills that Ilearned there and that I
developed there have been reallyuseful for my work moving
forward as well.
Philippa (10:00):
So did those groups take place in the community?
In the community Yeah.
The churches, the communityhall.
Exactly.
Matt (10:06):
Yeah.
So it was run initially in achurch hall in Tottenham.
But actually this was around thetime of lockdown as well.
So it started off as a physicalcommunity.
We then had to take it onlinewhich brought its own
difficulties, but then it was ata time that was really needed as
well.
A lot of people who wouldn't beable to engage in who needed
(10:27):
this?
But a lot of other services andplaces where they would've
otherwise interacted were takenaway.
They weren't able to meet peoplein those physical spaces.
So I think it became reallyimportant space for people
online as well.
But yeah, and then back to,physical spaces afterwards.
But I actually think now thatthe project has finished sadly
which is a real shame becausethe benefit.
(10:48):
And the need for it was reallyhigh and the engagement was
really high.
Philippa (10:52):
That's what I was gonna ask.
Did people engage in it becauseyou Yeah.
You can imagine that, Julie andI have recently done a.
An episode on deprivation incommunities that are
disadvantaged.
I live in the North, Julie livesactually not far from Hackney in
London and all right.
And we can see in, in some ofour communities the.
(11:13):
They are very disadvantaged bypoverty.
Really?
Yeah.
And by lack of resources and bylack of spaces and things like
that.
So anything I imagine that cancreate a sense of community and
communities that are feeling.
Fractured from maybe other partsof their own community and
especially the country.
(11:34):
Yeah.
Can be helpful.
So did you get engagement then?
Matt (11:37):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, and it was really positive.
And I think it, the communityaspect is so important.
People just coming together,being in the same space.
But equally the focus being thisis a therapeutic.
Community.
So that is even more specialbecause it's one thing to come
(11:58):
together and we talk about thisand maybe things, conversations
will happen and there will be atherapeutic element to it and
people feel seen and understoodand they build relationships
that are really enriching fortheir lives.
But this was designed to createthat community and for that
community to be therapeutic andto be facilitated, but actually
the therapy is happeningbetween.
(12:20):
Group members as well.
And I think that was somethingthat was so important because if
you'd, if you come in as theexpert and try and lead in a way
that will turn people off orreject it, that unless you are
properly part of our community.
Then you don't necessarilyunderstand.
(12:41):
So we are gonna facilitate thisspace for you to understand and
for you to move through it andfor you to begin to process
what's happened, what is goingon, what are the challenges
you're facing and explore thattogether in a really safe space,
safe community where it's reallyheld and it's, the focus though
is on that therapeutic aspect.
Philippa (13:00):
And did that, do you think, help to reduce some of
the violence around thosecommunities?
Some of those tensions thatmaybe have been in there within
the communities?
Yeah.
Or did it help?
Sorry, go on, Philippe.
I was gonna say, or did it helpthem?
Kind of create a narrativearound what was happening for
them.
So in, in itself that sharedexperience, can it become
(13:26):
therapeutic that we are havingthe shared experience that, that
I'm not alone within this.
Yeah.
Even if you can't change what'sgoing on, there's the, yeah,
there's the share.
Matt (13:37):
That's something that we talk about all the time.
There are things that you can'tchange.
There are things that are just.
Bad, that feel bad for you, thatare a pain.
It's a painful experience.
It's difficult, but like yousay, sharing in that difficulty
and actually bringing it tolight and, am I right to it?
I feel scared here.
What, what's going on?
I, conflicting feelings about.
(14:00):
People who maybe have had youngpeople in their lives who had
engaged in these riots what'syour thought about that?
This is my grandson, this is myson and I love them, but I can't
condone what happened.
Actually, can we hold theseconflicting ideas?
Can we hold these reallydifficult, challenging feelings?
And how does that how do Irelate to my, the rest of my
(14:21):
community?
Do you feel the same way?
I do.
Alright.
How have you got through it?
What's been useful for me?
What's, will that work for me?
I'm not sure we can explore ittogether though.
What difference would it makeif, for instance, so we've got
someone over here who's saying Iwant to forgive my grandson, but
I can't, can you want to, what?
Why do you wanna do that?
(14:41):
What difference would it make ifyou could, okay, let's explore
that and let's, and then you canexplore that as a group.
And I don't know it.
We'd have to look into theresearch to look at the efficacy
of it and see, that the impactit made.
But when I did my training, Iwas obviously working in the a
and e department north MiddlesexHospital.
There was a lot of other, therewas youth workers who were
(15:02):
working with a lot of youngpeople who were affiliated with
gangs.
And, the idea being that we weregoing to start.
Separate different thinkingspaces within with our different
cohorts.
Again, COVID really came at thewrong time because as we were
finishing our training and itwas hard to actually be setting
up these groups in physicalspaces that were probably gonna
(15:25):
make it easier for some peopleto engage.
But it was a really interesting,really powerful, project, and I
feel privileged to have been apart of it.
And also to have learn from,Frank Low, who was just a really
inspirational man.
And his dedication to his workand his community was really
inspiring to be honest.
Philippa (15:44):
I am definitely gonna go and Google this and do some
reading about it.
Once we've finished thisconversation, Matt, but I
suppose when you were talkingabout the skills that you were
using and the conversations youwere having in that community it
made me think about families,where children are being violent
with within an aggressiontowards parents because parents
(16:09):
can have those feelings too,can't they, about their child.
When you are in that moment ofbeing scared about your child,
not knowing what's gonna happenor having been hurt by your
child, you can have thoseconflicting emotions, this is
not okay.
Put, you are my kid and you aremy world.
And how do you balance those?
(16:30):
I'm guessing you're working withquite a lot with that now in the
role that you are in.
Matt (16:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
So my work now is directly withfamily.
So I'm still a practitionerworking, doing, we do drop-ins,
which are weekly drop-ins thatanyone can join.
So people can just come in, dropin, ask questions, be in a space
with other parents who areexperiencing similar behaviors.
Philippa (16:53):
I should have said before that you are online,
aren't you?
So when you are saying anybody,it literally means anybody.
Anyone.
It's not in a community.
Like it's not, there's nophysical space for this.
Exactly.
It's so yeah, just tell us aboutwhere you are and how it's
accessed and then tell us aboutit really.
Matt (17:14):
Yeah.
So Capa first response was setup by our CEO founder Jane
Griffiths, In response to thefact that it is such a postcode
lottery in terms of what supportmight be available in your
geographical location if you areexperiencing child-parent
violence and aggression.
So in some areas there is greatsupport available in other
(17:35):
areas, there is nothing for ahundred, 200 miles.
And then what do you do?
This is a very tricky, thing todeal with, essentially.
There's a lot of stigma, a lotof shame around this.
Parents are afraid to even askfor help.
And then what happens if you askfor help and people go, oh, I
don't really know what to say toyou.
There's nothing we can do to,that, that's even more painful.
(17:56):
So Jane set up Capa firstresponse as a remote
organization.
So all our support is online, soit doesn't matter where you are
in the country, we've supportedpeople.
In Australia in America, I thinkin different places in Europe.
Our funding is for the UKthough.
So we are funded to supportanyone anywhere in the uk.
(18:16):
So essentially all you need todo is go to a website click on a
button that says Get in contact.
And we can take it from there.
We do operate a contributionbased service.
So if you feel that you wouldlike to contribute, then we
welcome that.
But you don't have to, and wewill support anyone regardless
because.
(18:36):
This is an issue that we knowpeople suffer within in silence.
And it has, the ripple effectsof this are so far reaching and
it's just so important thatpeople feel that they can get
support as early as possible aswell.
We don't want people to waituntil this is four, five years
down the line, and we don't wantpeople to say yeah, it was, it's
always been difficult, but whenthey were 5, 6, 7.
(18:59):
I could manage it, but nowthey're 13, 14, 15.
This is now really scary.
This is I can't handle this.
We would much prefer people soonas they start thinking something
doesn't feel quite right here,get in contact with us.
We can support you.
We can help you think about itand give you some ideas for
things that may be useful andbasically start building that
(19:22):
relationship with your childstart doing things that are
helpful to reconnect.
Because in most instances, 99times outta a hundred, there is
an issue in terms of therelationship, in terms of the
communication.
And that bond, there's somethingthat is insecure, that there's
(19:43):
something that's got a littlebit wobbly.
And our, all of our work isfocused on strengthening that
child, parent relationship andstrengthening the communication
both ways.
So a child is more able tocommunicate what's going on for
them.
So a parent is more able tocommunicate that they are paying
attention to that child.
So that child's hearing andwitnessing you get this, you can
(20:06):
see what's going on for me.
That's where we focus, that'swhere our work always starts.
Philippa (20:12):
Because I suppose I work with families where there's
violence within it.
And I think often parents feelguilt.
A huge amount of guilt.
Especially'cause lots offamilies I work with are
adoptive families.
So they've had been through thisjourney to.
To prove, I'm saying thatinverted comment.
Yeah.
That they're gonna be greatparents so that they can have
(20:36):
the family that they want, andthen they have this child that
they, fall in love with, wantthis family life with and then
there's this.
Aggression that goes on withinit.
Yeah.
So often for lots of complexreasons but I think that
families then find that reallydifficult to talk about.
(20:57):
Yeah.
And if they do, say, if, if.
Extended family members see itor they'll say, oh, just do
Matt (21:04):
Oh yeah.
Philippa (21:04):
Just do stuff.
Like they've been there, they'vedone that.
And so they become isolated andstop talking about it.
Matt (21:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
People, I think that's somethingthat comes up all the time is,
yeah.
My brother said, oh, you justneed to be stricter.
My mum has said, if you just hadsome firmer boundaries, oh no,
you come on, you just, it's.
This is about what you've done.
You are getting this wrong.
And I think especially in thoseadopted families where this,
(21:33):
depending on when that childcame to not, look, we can be
almost certain.
There's been some trauma in thatchild's early life.
They have lost, at the veryleast, they have lost their
family, their birth family,families at the start.
There is trauma there.
That's not your fault.
That will never be your fault.
That is going to have an impacton their ability to connect with
(21:55):
you and their ability to have arelationship with you.
Their early experiences of beingparented are in some cases more
traumatic than others.
But you can't do anything aboutthat child will in all
likelihood have a difficulty inconnecting with you and trusting
that parent figure.
(22:15):
They may say, I don't want aparent, they don't want to be
parented, because actually I'vehad an experience of that and I
don't want to go through thatagain.
And so it's understanding thatthis is, not your fault.
And the behavior you are seeingis not directed necessarily
towards you.
It's directed towards maybe whatyou represent or the fear that
(22:36):
child has about that kind ofrelationship and that
connection.
But I think that feeling ofguilt and shame is always
present in nearly all thefamilies we talk to.
And it's not helped by the factthat so many professionals that
they talk to exacerbate thatproblem.
They do say you should have donethis, right?
This is because you didn't dothat, you're not putting in
(22:57):
enough firm boundaries.
You're being too weak.
So then the parent tries torespond to that and goes, oh my
God, I'm doing a terrible job.
Let me put more boundaries inplace.
Let me be firm and the problemgets worse.
And you didn't do it quite rightthen.
Maybe you didn't.
And then they're just, they'regoing in circles.
And then so the parents startsdoubting themselves becoming
really self-critical and thatdoesn't help.
(23:17):
And yeah, it's, I feel so muchcompassion for the parents who
come to us because what they'refacing is one of the most
difficult things they can faceas a parent.
And the support when they do,pluck up the courage to ask for
help, to ask for support.
Sometimes it just makes itworse.
And it's just heartbreaking,because in worst cases they just
(23:37):
go I'm not doing that again.
And so then they suffer insilence.
And the problem either juststays as it is or it gets worse
and things get to a place forfamily breakdown potentially.
And in this situation, everyoneloses the child loses, the
parent loses, siblings lose.
It's just yeah, a reallydifficult situation.
Philippa (23:57):
And I think can happen is that family's own support
network starts to disappear aswell.
So the professional help maybeisn't what it needs to be,
doesn't have the understanding,but then their own support
network, so there's no respite.
'cause they don't go to granny'sanymore or they don't go out
with aunt anymore, or they can'tgo to the Saturday morning club
(24:21):
anymore because even if theydon't misbehave.
And again, I'm saying that in,in yeah.
Yeah.
In quoted commerce there, theparents know that when they come
home that the wobbles are gonnabe so big that the violence is
gonna occur.
It's not worth
Matt (24:35):
even trying to go.
Philippa (24:36):
So they end up very insular then, don't they?
With this massive emotional Idon't even know how to describe
it, but emotionally, it must beso hard to be going through that
with your child seeing yourchild distressed and that
distress being displayed inviolence.
Matt (24:55):
Absolutely.
I think it's one of those thingsthat I talk about quite a lot
with parents though, and I thinkwe might have talked about
either ear before we startedtalking or earlier in the
conversation, I can't remember.
But that balance, finding thatbalance.
I'm not even finding thebalance, but on the one hand,
you've got the parent issuffering themselves so much
because you have a child thatyou love dearly using this
(25:16):
violence and aggression againstyou.
And often, I hear parents say, Ilove my child, but I do not like
them.
I don't want be around them andit's, so that's something really
tricky to hold there.
What does this mean?
That I've, I know I love mychild and I do want what's best
for them, but.
I don't like'em now because ofthe behavior they're using,
because of what they're doing tome.
(25:37):
But then also on the other handsaying I'm so scared for my
child's future.
I can see the distress they'rein.
I know that they're strugglingso much and this is where this
behavior's coming from, andyou've, I.
And the weight, you're justcarrying weight all over the
place.
The weight for you as a personto protect yourself, the weight
you're carrying for your childto try and protect them.
Lot talk to lots of parents andthey, the fear of their, of,
(26:00):
criminalizing their child attimes.
We talk a lot with parents aboutwhen to call the police and how
to call the police in a helpfulway.
And I completely think thatthere's times when you have to
go calling the police issomething.
I may have to do if I cannotkeep us safe in this home, if I
know that actually this is gonnabe dangerous for all of us, I
may have to call the police.
(26:21):
But parents fear about callingthe police.
I couldn't do that to my childbecause what if they, if they
get arrested, the impact that'sgonna have on their future.
And then the impact that's gonnahave on our relationship.
That betrayal, it can feel liketo call the police and,'cause
it's seen as a punitive measure.
A lot we talk about with parentsis actually, this isn't a
punitive measure.
This is, you are not doing thisto punish your child.
(26:41):
You will be doing this to keepeveryone safe.
To make sure that actually maybeI can't keep everyone safe
myself as the parent, but thatdoesn't mean that I'm going to
say we just can't be safe athome.
Then I'm still gonna dosomething to make sure we are
safe.
And that's a really powerfulboundary that I think parents
can set.
But again, it's that conflictingidea of, I dunno what, what the
(27:03):
best way course of action is totake it and how conflicting
parents feel just adds toconfusion.
And parents shutting down in away and just not being able to
move forward, or not being ableto make a positive choice for
their family.
Because of all the thingsthey're balancing, all the
things they're juggling.
So part of our support ishelping parents to think things
(27:24):
through a little clearer aswell.
And actually what would lookgood for you?
Let's imagine that.
Things were going a little bitbetter for you as a family, what
might that look like?
And let's explore that.
What could be positive for yourfamily?
What would be the next smallstep that we can take?
And then start to move forward.
And I think that ability to lookat those small steps and
actually reflect back.
'cause I think parents arealways really amazed at how
(27:47):
quickly they can start noticingpositive change through working
with us.
It's really incredible, like howquickly and how impactful the
support can be.
But a big part of that isreflecting on those small
changes and the self-efficacythat builds and the agency that
parent suddenly feels, I am ableto make an impact Here.
I can see actually there's a wayout of this because hope is just
(28:09):
so important for a parent tosee.
There is a different futurepossible here, just'cause I'm
seeing this at my child is doingthis at 11, it doesn't mean that
I can, predict exactly what'sgonna be happening at 1617.
There are alternative partsshooting off all the time, which
is we've gotta be aware andwe've got to pay attention to
(28:30):
the small signs that tell us adifferent possibility is there
for us.
Philippa (28:34):
Absolutely.
Julie and I would I guess fromour perspective, think about how
play could help in those smallmoments.
We often talk about.
The pressure that parents areunder to do all this amazing
parenting that you see on socialmedia in TikTok.
That actually just isn't real.
No.
At all.
And just having, two minutes ofplayfulness can actually change
(28:58):
the course of the next hour,course by blowing bubbles outta
the when you're washing up orwhatever it is.
I don't know if play comes intoto your.
Suggestions or thoughts
Matt (29:10):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So we talk about the parentchild game quite a bit and doing
that with parents.
So setting aside some toboundary time to play with your
child, to be present, to observewhat they're doing, to let them
lead bring that playfulness in.
Because I think in thatinstance, what you're doing is
you are building thatconnection.
You are building thatcommunication.
(29:31):
You respond to what's going on,what the other person is doing,
and there's that languagebuilding, okay, as I, when I do
this, you do this.
Okay, we can, but in a positiveway.
So yeah, absolutely.
I think play is really importantfor the younger or the parents.
With the younger children we, wetalk with, that's something we
talk about quite a lot.
And then for older children itis just.
We talk a lot about invites tospend time an invitation, not a,
(29:56):
would you like to do this withme, yes or no?
I'm not gonna do it if you don'twanna do it with me.
But a kind of, oh, I'm thinkingit'd be cool to, maybe we could
watch this film together.
I'm gonna get a pizza, orwhatever it might be.
But to have a connection thatisn't problem focused because of
very often families when they'reseeing this behavior, they can
find it so many of theirinteractions are based around
(30:21):
this problem they're witnessingwithin their family.
And so then that's all anyonesees, that's all anyone feels,
that's all anyone knows abouttheir connection as a family
unit is this problem.
That's the narrative thatbuilds.
So introducing those elements orthose times of connection that
are playful, that are separatefrom the problem that I just.
(30:43):
This is just a nice thing and wecan do that.
I think it's massively importantand I think, as I said earlier
on, it comes back to thatconnection, that communication,
that sort of, when you'replaying that, oh, okay, I can
see what you're doing there.
Oh, I'm gonna respond in thisway, and that it's so vitally
important.
All of our work is built around.
(31:05):
Building that communication.
That is, I am paying attentionto what you are doing.
I'm paying attention to what'sgoing on in your world.
I'm paying attention to what'simportant to you.
And setting aside.
So when we talk about thatparent-child game is setting
aside that time where you letthat child lead to play and you
say, I'm gonna observe what'sgoing on, and I'm gonna see
what's important to you.
(31:25):
You tell me what we're gonnaplay.
I'm not gonna correct you, I'mgonna just show you that I'm
really there with you.
Ah, okay.
Okay so we're playing with thecrayons.
Cool.
What would you like me to do?
Oh, you need to draw a pictureof a house.
Okay.
I'm gonna draw a picture.
Not like that.
I want it to be a house with, 10windows.
Okay.
I'm gonna draw a house with 10windows, and it's showing that
(31:46):
attentiveness and showing that,proving that kind of
communication is there intact ina way that is enjoyable.
It's playful.
It's super important.
Philippa (31:57):
And I imagine it's a different bodily experience
because when you've got thataggression, frustration, anger
going on.
Your body is feeling one way,and we can get used to being in
that way of feeling, yeah.
And that fight, flight, freeze,that kind of really
hypervigilant stuff.
Whereas when you are playing,you can't be in fight, flight,
(32:17):
freeze.
You've got to be in your wholebrain and your whole nervous
system, and your whole body isexperiencing something.
Very different in the being.
Yeah.
As well as in the knowing youare experiencing being calmer.
You are experiencing beingconnected in a different way
because you are connected inthat aggression point.
(32:38):
It's a very different experiencein the body
Matt (32:41):
absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think that can.
It can be quite tricky thoughfor parents.
They spend so much time,thinking about the window of
tolerance and being in thatplace where we are.
Okay.
Here.
And then in that place of, hyperarousal where you spend so much
time, like you're saying fromthat fight, flight or freeze
response where you are on edgeand i've got to watch what I'm
saying.
If I say the wrong thing,something's gonna explode.
(33:03):
Looking for the signs from yourchild.
Okay, here we go.
Something's building here.
And, but because of that, youcan you do stop seeing other
small signs.
And there are bits ofcommunication that are lost
because of that, that need to bealert to danger.
So yeah when you can introduceplay and you can bring a
different.
(33:23):
Quality, to that awareness andhow it feels for you in that
moment.
That's really important.
But I think it can be reallytricky for parents to get to
that place where they canactually allow themselves or
feel safe enough to, to getthere really?
To engage in that play.
Because very often it may notfeel safe.
Yeah.
Philippa (33:41):
And the child then picks up that the adult is still
in that hyper aware state.
So that communicates back to thechild while they must.
Be something unsafe here becauseYeah something's wrong here.
Yeah.
So I can't just relax and play.
Whereas if you can both get downand play with the Play-Doh or
run around the park or whateverit is you're doing in a
different state, that you areboth I suppose that
(34:04):
communication to the child assaying, actually, you are now
with a safe adult in a safespace.
You don't need to have your kindof hyper-awareness up or your
fight protection around.
Matt (34:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we talk a lot withparents about communication and
how much we think about ourcommunication in terms of the
words we're saying.
We try and communicateeverything through what we're
saying to our child, and we veryoften ignore.
The bulk of our communication,which is happening through our,
nonverbal cues and our tone ofvoice.
And you might be saying, no,everything's fine, but
(34:39):
everything really is screamingto your child.
We are not fine.
Things are very dangerous here.
Things are very uncertain.
We are on, really shaky groundand bringing an awareness to the
rest of your communication thatcan actually say, we're okay
here.
This is all right.
We can both allow ourselves tobe with each other and we're
gonna be safe.
So yeah it's really importantthat we pay attention to all of
(35:02):
our communication, the messagesthat we're giving off in terms
of safety.
Because for most of our,families and the children that
we're working with, they do notfeel safe, which is why we're
seeing this response and whichis why there's this.
Very often, parents will talk,they need to be in control.
If they don't get it their way,then they'll kick off.
(35:22):
And it's where does that needfor control come from?
What's the root of that?
All of our work, we're alwayssaying, it's really important
that we understand what thebehavior is and what we're
seeing.
Name that and go this is what'sgoing, we see going on.
But why are we seeing that?
Why is, why does this responseexist?
What purpose does it serve foryour child?
Why do they need to respond inthis way?
(35:43):
So yeah, I think that's alwaysreally important with all our
work is going.
Yeah, looking at the why,really.
Philippa (35:50):
So what, one last question just before we wrap up.
What about families wherechildren maybe are, have got
neurodiversity?
So things like fetal alcoholsyndrome disorder, autism, A DHD
are you.
Still, you still offer supportto those families?
(36:10):
Absolutely.
Matt (36:11):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's actually the majorityof the families we work with the
family's neurodiverse, whetherthat's one or more people in the
family's neurodivergent.
So yeah, we absolutely work withneurodiverse families.
And really, again, it comes backto what was saying there, it's
because a child isneurodivergent, does not mean
(36:31):
that they're gonna be violent oraggressive.
Okay.
Autism or A DHD or, whatever itmay be, is not going to make
someone fine or aggressive, butthe difficulty that comes along
with that Can, that can be theproblem.
That can be the weight.
That means they are unable tocope, but they go to that fight,
flight, or freeze place.
(36:51):
A lot of our work is, as I said,focused on that connection and
that communication and thatworks regardless.
Philippa (37:00):
So I guess what you're saying is it's, so for somebody
to say maybe who's been exposedto alcohol and neutral sometimes
what we know is that whenthere's lots of demands on them,
yeah it's really hard for themto process all those demands in
one go.
Yeah.
And then it can.
Create that feelings offrustration and oh my gosh, I
dunno what I'm doing.
(37:21):
And then from that can come thelashing out.
But actually, if we can reducehow parents think about actually
how do we reduce those demands?
How do go on.
Matt (37:32):
Yeah.
It's having that.
Having compassion towards yourchild.
Not as, say, obviously parentsalways have compassion, but
especially if the parent isneurotypical and they have a
neurodivergent child, they willnever fully understand the
experience of life their childhas and so for them they'd be
like what was the problem?
(37:54):
There was no issue there.
It was fine.
Like I just told you to go andput your shoes on and it's
thinking, what is the child'sexperience of that?
Are they able to tolerate, isthat too much what you've just
done?
It may seem fine for you and inyour experiences that is not a
problem, but what's theexperience for the child?
And I think it's stepping backand understanding your child's
needs and going right.
You are giving me signals thattell me that you've got a big
(38:16):
problem with this, that this istoo much for you.
So am I able to communicate toyou that I'm paying attention to
this problem that feelsunmanageable for you?
You cannot tolerate what's goingon and you are communicating
this to me how do I show youthat I've picked up on the
severity of this for you?
How do I make that really clear,and how do I then respond with
(38:38):
that in mind?
Do I then go, oh, come and stopmaking a fuss, and no, if we
don't do that, then actuallywe're gonna be late for this.
Am I gonna carry on talking?
Putting more pressure on thatthinking part of the brain
that's already just going, oh, Ican't cope.
Yeah.
Or am I gonna go, you are notactually coping with this at the
moment.
Let me respond in a more helpfulway.
Maybe I'm not gonna talk somuch.
Maybe we have to wait fiveminutes before we can continue
(39:01):
with the next bit of our plan ofthe day of whatever that may be.
But it's bringing an awarenessof that charge, experience of
life.
The best way to help themregulate.
And the brilliant thing is thatas that child starts to
experience their ability toregulate more, the narrative
around that child changes.
Philippa (39:18):
Their
Matt (39:19):
belief in their ability to regulate, improves, their
ability to regulate, improvestheir, the difficulty.
They're not carrying thedifficulty of, I'm a bad kid,
this is what I do, I hurtpeople.
And they no longer carry that,and they start to trust.
Mom, dad, grandma, granddad,whoever it is.
(39:40):
Do you know what?
They know how to help me whenI'm feeling angry.
When I'm feeling really fizzy,they know how to help me so I
can keep in control.
There's that trust that buildsagain, that actually you can
help me, not.
The problem, you keep talking tome and I just can't bear and I
explode.
And then actually I startlooking around going, no one
actually understands what myexperience of life is.
(40:02):
I'm gonna actually, I retreatinto myself and I'm the only one
who can protect myself.
And that, is a really sad anddangerous place to be.
Philippa (40:10):
I could ask you a million more questions about,
but I know that you've gotanother appointment in a couple
of minutes.
So thank you so much.
And maybe you'll come back in alittle while and tell us a
little bit more about how C'Sgoing and how your podcast going
and all those sorts of things.
But I will put a link to thewebsite on the bottom of this.
(40:31):
Brilliant description, andpeople can just click on that.
And there's a, there's, they alltell them easily.
There's literally a button.
It says, get in
Matt (40:39):
contact.
You just click on that button.
And we will get in contact andwe can start, we can take it
from there.
Philippa (40:44):
That's great.
And you also do a podcastyourselves, don't you, about
this.
So people can also find thatfrom your website if they want.
Matt (40:51):
The website or wherever you find your podcast.
It's Capa first responsepodcast.
So yeah, we've we are working onit all the time.
It's a yeah, I think there'salways a few more, seasons
planned before we've even gotthe next one out.
Jane likes to keep me on thetreadmill, Philippa.
Keeps me working.
Philippa (41:09):
That's good.
So thank you so much for yourtime today and taking this doing
this podcast with us.
Thank you very much, Matt.
Thanks.
Matt (41:17):
Thanks for having me.
Really appreciate it.
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