August 13, 2025 • 53 mins
Join PondTalk host Blew (@BlewApu ) for Part II with memecoin visionary Murad Mahmudov (@MustStopMurad ). They explore life, philosophy, memes, the crypto supercycle, and innovative concepts like the Cognisphere – a realm of collective ideas and persistence. Mixing frog lore, community stories, and forward-looking insights on digital culture and finance – kept simple for newbies curious about trends or vets seeking depth. No heavy jargon, pure engaging dialogue on ideas, autonomy, and beyond. $APU essence throughout! Not financial advice. Tune in for thoughtful, vibe-filled chats.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
Good afternoon, good evening, really everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of Pawn Talk.
This is Pawn Talk, the fastest growing memecoin crypto talk
show that reinvests in communities that you and I both
love. The director for today's show is
LFG Triple O. The producer is Tim at Tim to
Kill And I, of course, my name is Blue and I'm your host for
the night. Today's a very special stream
because we have a recurring guest here for us here to
(00:40):
continue the conversation that I've been told has been one of
the favorites, a fan favorite for multiple reasons.
And so I I don't want to get I don't want to get into too much
of A spiel before we start here,but I'm just gonna I'm just
gonna bring him back up. The one the only.
Maraud Rod, thank you so much for joining us today.
How are you doing? How's it going man?
Thanks for having me. It's going good.
(01:02):
It's going good. I'll be honest, I I was injured
not too long ago playing soccer,I got very serious turf burn.
So I haven't really been able toto run for like 2 weeks.
It's killing me. It's just been killing me.
There's people, you know, you get into a routine and people
don't really appreciate and, andfully value how much exercise
truly matters. And then you get out of that
(01:22):
routine and it's, you know, it just, it throws everything out
of whack. Yeah, I I feel you.
I hope you get better soon man. Oh, I think, yeah, it's, it's,
you know, we're, it's, we're at the tail end of it here.
But at at any rate, bring this back to something you you talked
about, which is consistency, howimportant that is.
(01:44):
The first thing that I just wanted to get right into is
we've talked about the public belief or excuse me, the pure
belief, pure belief asset and, and this sort of the cognosphere
and, and where this is going. When people ask you and when
people talk about the pure belief asset, what, what does
(02:08):
that really mean? Why are we renaming it?
It, it feels as though we're creating a, and, and I don't
mean this I, I actually mean this positively.
Like I think it's a good thing that there's this separate thing
that's sort of evolving and emerging.
But from your perspective, why, why do you think it matters?
And it's significant enough to designate a brand new
(02:30):
classification for for these kinds of assets.
When you say you're renaming, what are you implying it got
renamed from? Well, I think that perhaps a
renaming isn't the right term, but this new, this new
description, and perhaps it's not new.
Perhaps it's new to me. From a meme coin to a pure
belief asset. Yeah.
(02:51):
So, OK, I, I understand this is,this has kind of been the crux
of my thesis for the past eight or nine months.
But obviously meme coins have dominated in 2024 and back in
March and April of 2024, when a lot of meme coins were getting
(03:11):
launched, when a lot of launch pads were getting launched, it
was already obvious to a lot of people that there's going to be
a whole lot more of them. So the very first step for you
as an investor, you first of all, you have to make a choice,
right? Are you going to be like an
intraday intra week fast-paced trader slash hyper gambler or
(03:36):
are you going to be an investor slash believer, right?
And for me personally, I didn't want to do the whole 20 hours in
front of the screen like hyper gambling part on three monitors.
Immediately I went to the OK, ifI was to even try to be a long
term investor, right or a long term believer, how do I, how do
(04:00):
I choose them right? And this is kind of, and I think
I posted this three or four times by now, but that is like
the whole pyramid that I've beenposting a few times.
Essentially, this combines 2 key, two key bullet points.
First of all, it was obvious that we would reach a point
(04:20):
where there would be like billions of meme coins, right?
And we're kind of like slowly inching towards that.
And you know, back in the day, you would have 100 new meme
coins per day. Then it would be 1000.
I think on some days you have like multiple thousand now,
right? And I think depending on how big
this crypto cycle becomes, how much retail joins the cycle, we
(04:41):
might even reach a point where it's going to be like 25,000 new
coins per day. I'm sure you wouldn't be
surprised if something like thathappens, right?
And so the way I dealt with thatpsychologically or as an
investor, I told myself, let's imagine a world in which there's
going to be like literally quadrillions of meme coins,
(05:02):
right? Let's imagine a world where
there's a meme coin for every word, for every animal, for
every meme, for every number, for literally everything, right?
And you have to ask yourself, like, what is going to thrive in
that world? That's number one.
And I guess to answer that question, this brings me to
(05:25):
bullet point #2 which is if you've been following crypto for
like 2 or 3 cycles, you have to ask yourself, what has been the
common thread among long lastingwinners, right?
And in order to answer that, youfirst need to list the long
lasting winners, right? BTC, ETH, XRP, Cardano, link,
(05:47):
Doge ship to some extent back inthe day, Tao, right, from
earlier this cycle. And you have to ask yourself,
what is the thing that is like uniting all of these seemingly
different coins? And the answer is that they have
borderline cult like communitiesthat are very passionate.
(06:08):
So essentially that's been like the insight here, right?
If, if there's going to be billions of meme coins, you have
to invest in cults. That's been kind of like my
thesis. And then I kind of gradually
took it a level further. I said, OK, well, what's after?
If, if, if, if the evolution of superior meme coins is cults,
What's the next thing after cults?
(06:30):
And that's where we come to brand coins, lifestyle coins.
And then you have to ask yourself like what's after that?
And in my opinion, it's movementcoins, right?
It's like things that are much bigger where essentially where
the act of buying the thing allows you to effectively
(06:50):
amplify a certain idea and make it be heard louder and bigger in
the world. And effectively, you know how a
lot of people say, OK, like a democracy doesn't work, let's
vote with our money instead. And I think this is like kind of
like a small example of that. Now you can even ask yourself
like, what's after movements? And I guess that's the next
chapter. But ultimately what's what's
(07:12):
after that is I think we are witnessing what I call the hyper
financialization of spirituality, right?
Or in other words, spirituality and finance are merging into
one. And instead of, instead of like
a company capturing like profit margins with revenue here, you
(07:34):
effectively like, instead of therevenue, you have like people
buying the token itself. And they're effectively like, I
mean, this sounds a bit crazy, but I think like you are
promoting that idea. And you are, you know, because
if you think about it, right, meme coins, they're not equity,
they're not debt, they're not currency, and they're not quite
(07:57):
like tech altcoins either, whichare like promising future
revenue or fees or whatever. So like, what are they?
And my argument for like the past 14 months has been that
meme coins, they are financialized vessels of faith.
And effectively, I think at the risk of sounding a little bit
(08:18):
sacrilegious, but I think what meme coins are essentially every
single meme coin, it's like a micro church and the whether
it's the LP pool on Uniswap or an order book on a centralized
exchange doesn't matter. They're essentially the
approximate equivalent of the donation box at a church.
(08:40):
But you can kind of put money inor put money out as your faith
strengthens or weakens. Does that make sense?
And I mean. Essentially my idea is as
capitalism, or to be more precise, techno capitalism,
extends its claws across every facet of society.
(09:00):
It's now coming for ideas and spirituality as well.
Like it obviously originally it came for the tangibles like
metals and gold and factories, but now it's kind of slowly like
a like a giant invisible octopus.
It's coming for the intangibles,right?
And this is where this idea of concepts, ideas, spirituality
(09:23):
comes in. And now effectively people to
some extent, I think are disillusioned with the system in
many ways. And they're, they're like, OK, I
don't want to buy those like overpriced boomer assets
anymore. I'm going to buy these like new
emergent assets now. And in a way, it's a, it's an
act of dissent, right? It's an actual.
(09:44):
Sure. It's protest.
It's protest. Right.
And, and, and I think we're still relatively early to this
whole story. OK, so, so on that note,
there's, there's so many sort ofdifferent loose ends or that I,
I want to chase down. But I think the first one is
that it's interesting because you almost present this idea of
spirituality and finance mingling as kind of novel or
(10:06):
innovative in some way. And with, I know you like to say
apolitical to a certain extent. So I'm going to do that as as
best as possible. But I think through a historical
lens, there's a really good argument to be made that pretty
much the second religion was created, money was, was, you
know, interwoven with it. And in many cases, the one, you
know, egged the other on just depending on on the period and,
(10:29):
and the actors involved. Would you agree that that on a
conceptual level, this actually purely on a conceptual level,
that this has happened before, that this that in and of itself
isn't, isn't the innovation, that it's something other than
that in this case? I I would agree with that and I
would also use examples of like the British East India Company,
(10:52):
Dutch East India Company as examples of that as well.
Because you know, during certainperiods, these quasi corporate
entities, they were stronger than nation states, right?
And the financial assets that they were interwoven with were
some of the most valuable assetsin the world, right?
So definitely, definitely agree with that.
(11:15):
So to the, to the point about the, the, the belief in the
faith, I mean, you know, we, we've heard this before.
And I, one of the things that there, there was a person who
has been watching the show and approached me about, you know,
that they come from Bitcoin, butthey were one of these sort of
not interested Bitcoin investors.
And they were, they were, I was talking about the thesis about
(11:37):
APU, about SBX, but all these things.
And, and one of the things, you know, I, I, I said that the tag
line stop trading and, and believe in something.
And one of the things that kind of hit me, I said, you know, I
walked away from the conversation and I said to
myself, OK, but so I believe nowwhat?
And so I, I wrote this down. I, I said, so you believe now
(11:59):
what? Like for for you once, once
you've reached the point where aperson believes right in in, in
their their coin of conviction, whatever that might be, what
then needs to happen on a on an individual level?
And then on a broader level, what are the next steps?
(12:21):
So a combination of things. One concept that I think is
really relevant to the answer here is what some people refer
to as free cult labor. What is that?
That's essentially a community participant providing their
quote UN quote services for free, right?
So, you know, many of these coins, they have software
(12:43):
engineers, designers, you know, lawyers in your case, and a lot
of other sort of experts, right?And in their day-to-day life, in
their nine to five, let's say, they would charge, I don't know,
$500.00 an hour for their services, right?
But here, because they love the mission so much and because
(13:05):
they're so passionate about the idea, they are going to provide
those valuable services for free.
And when you multiply that by thousands of talented people
kind of binding together, that'swhere you get these, like,
advantages. Like a corporation or even a
country would have to pay its people to provide these
(13:26):
services, right? But here, because they love the
idea so much, because they want to expand that sort of memetic
force, because they're so, because they resonate and align
with it emotionally so much, they're going to give it for
free. And I think that is one of the
several advantages of these sortof decentralized coin networks,
communities, whatever you want to call them.
(13:48):
When you when you say, OK, so that and I think that's fair.
And I've, you know, I've been saying that the, one of the
things I love the most about APU, by the way, the minute I
joined was I noticed how people were sort of bartering in this
way, right? I say barter just to denote sort
of a very unsophisticated methodof, of exchanging things with
one another. But it wasn't really, it wasn't
(14:09):
like a bizarre, I mean, it wasn't like a some kind of
market. It was more of, hey, I can give
you in. In my case, it was, I can give
you some pointers on what to do with this legal situation.
Can you help me with diet, Right.
In some cases it's tiling. In some cases it's software like
it's, it's all kinds of stuff. And I was just immediately drawn
into how, how willing people were to just help one another.
(14:32):
And so I definitely see that. But I think that there are some
people and, and I'd hope you'd agree.
As you know, you focus quite a lot on the disenfranchised young
man and woman who who have really just been pushed to the
outskirts of, of society. And I think a lot of these
people, they don't see them. Whether it's true or not is kind
of irrelevant. I, I think anyone can provide
something, but they don't see themselves as, as being able to
(14:55):
provide anything sometimes. And So what?
And even if they can, it's not always it's not always something
that is immediately and equally applicable to the mission,
right? If, if, if I own a restaurant,
there's not always unless someone else is trying to do the
same. And I have like advice that's,
you know, pertains to them. There's not a whole lot I can
(15:15):
contribute in terms of the free quote labor the.
I think what I think what IA lotof people that might not have
like a professional skill. What they're doing is they are
essentially like bull posting onsocial media.
They are rating in the Twitter comments.
They're creating TikTok videos, doing Reddit posts, YouTube
shorts rating all of the comments on those other social
(15:37):
media platforms as well printingout stickers like, you know,
creating merchandise that are there giving away for free or at
cost. So I feel like even if you're,
even if you don't have a particular like special skill,
there's still so much you can do.
Right, right. But the, the, the reason I say
this is, you know, Cal and I have been talking a lot about
(16:00):
these things and he's been doingjust incredible work on his on
his own, but he's been kind of putting in a lot of intellectual
effort into thinking and dreaming up of what is, what is
this PBA? What does this really mean?
Are we creating a decentralized company, so to speak?
And is it a corporation? And, and, and he using these
words not not to denote intent, but structure, right?
(16:24):
How, how, how is this, you know,And if so, what is the product?
I think that the, the, the sort of the angle that I'm going down
is at what point and in what ways are these virtual and
digital things? How do they manifest into real
world initiatives? I'll give you an example.
(16:48):
Currently, APU has our APU the world initiative where people
are, you know, taking these stickers, posting them and, and
onboarding people this way. And, and that's the partnership
we have with Moon Shot. There are, I think I saw
somebody in SPX that's going on this like tour across, I think
it was Southern California, if I, if I'm not mistaken,
(17:08):
literally charting like an actual tour, like a musician to,
to sort of go city by city. And this is someone with like
that has, I think it's going to be more than just walking around
talking to random people, but towhat extent and, and how, how
can we expect, what's the evolution of this?
How do, how do these communitiesand their belief manifest into
actual, real world, if we, for lack of a better term, avatars
(17:32):
or symbols of that faith? And, and what's the actual, I
use this word utility? Not, not in the crypto sense, in
a sort of practical sense. What are we looking at?
What, what do you think? How's that going to develop?
Yeah. So that's a great question.
I think there are many avenues here.
I think you know some of the some of the meme coins of this
(17:56):
cycle, they will go on to build products, you know, whether it
is clothing, whether it is software.
Some I think are going to becomelike Defy investment funds or DA
OS. I think some will pursue more
sort of charitable causes. So it kind of depends on the
(18:16):
nature of the coin and what their specific community members
are passionate about. But I think there's a lot that
you can do here. Do you think how much does this
coincide with? Last time you said it?
I absolutely loved it. Memes are teams.
To what extent do those two things overlap?
And and then I have some more questions about the the memes
(18:38):
and teams thing. Yes, I think that's a great
question. You know, a lot of people pay a
lot of money to be parts of likecountry clubs, you know, gyms,
yoga studios, fraternities, whatever.
And I think that this is simply a continuation of that story,
(18:58):
another framework more sort of from a Silicon Valley kind of
lingo. You know, I'm sure you're
familiar with B to B businesses,I'm sure you're familiar with B
to C businesses. And I think these networks, they
are examples of C to C businesses, right?
(19:20):
So essentially we communicate, transact and unite with one
another directly without an intermediary, without any
central like quote, quote, UN quote B.
And I think a lot of people finda lot of value in that right,
depending on a particular meme coin's mission.
(19:42):
So it sounds it, it, it, it sounds abstract, but I think in
this case, the journey together is the product.
The community is the product andand everything in between, like
all of the all of the emotions, all of the journey, all of the
adventure together. Maybe if you're not, if you're
(20:04):
if you're somebody who's like already extremely sociable and
extroverted, this like might sound weird to you, but I think
to an increasingly large hyper online and isolated demographic,
this definite this this definitely has like product
market fit. OK.
For much on the same vein as that memes are teams.
(20:30):
You know a lot of this is decentralized.
When when you say teams, what does that mean practically
speaking? I think it depends.
It is different from coin to coin.
Some are a little bit more centralized, some are more
decentralized, but I genuinely, I think there's a sweet spot
(20:52):
because if it's like too centralized, we we know that's a
bad thing because likely the supply centralized as well and
decision making is far too in the hands of far too people.
On the other hand, if something is way too decentralized, that's
bad also because there is no kind of critical mass of like
call it 40 lieutenants or so that like are super motivated to
(21:17):
make things happen. So I think there's like a sweet
spot, there's a sweet spot between centralization and
decentralization, but I personally like learn more
towards the decentralized side. What's something that you see in
teams that makes you bullish? Delayed gratification.
(21:38):
Literally holding for as long aspossible without selling.
Being frugal in their own personal lives, behaving as if
they're not interested in short term profit but rather in like
long term mission, and just being super super active every
day no matter what. Yeah.
(21:59):
Is there a what, what advice do you have if you know?
Undoubtedly there, there are so many, even I think even within
the, the 10, even within the list that are still trying to
figure out this sweet spot of reaching this, this maximum
efficiency. Because I think part of this is
also a, a matter of efficiency. I think that sometimes there are
(22:22):
too many cooks in the kitchen. There are too few cooks in the
kitchen. And, and, and so there, I think
they're, it's, it's about harmony, you know, or all of the
sectors, whether you have creators, whether you have the,
the, the analysts, what, what, whatever it is, it's different
people that fit into these different roles.
Is there harmony among them? Are, are you know, are they
(22:43):
moving in tandem? What advice do you have to other
communities that are figuring itout?
How, how, what's what's the bestway or the the the most
streamlined way for them to figure that out?
Yeah, this, I think this ties inwith industrial organization.
And I kind of always jokingly say that a lot of like the meme
(23:03):
coins, they're closer to fulfilling the DAO dream from
2015 than a lot of the D5DA OS, which are essentially just
glorified multi 6. You know, there's been a lot of
research done with software engineering teams, and I believe
they found that 7 to 8 team members are the most optimal,
(23:24):
for example. Well, who knows what that number
is when it comes to like crypto coins, but that's just like an
illustrative example. But what I would say is these
are essentially new forms of human organization that block
chains and decentralized networks have enabled.
And yeah, it's still early days,right?
(23:46):
And I think, you know, we can focus on the money and, like,
where will the flows come from and who will buy what?
And is our people economically incentivized?
But I think as AI displaces not only jobs but also people's
identities, a lot of people willbe gravitating towards these
things. By the way, the first time I
(24:07):
heard your take on AII kind of chuckled a little bit, not
because I, I thought you were wrong, but because I was like,
I'm a lawyer that doesn't, you know, impact me because I, I use
AIA lot and all right, I, I, I then, then I thought, I use it a
lot. And they're already, they're
already coming for paralegals, right?
Well, so I mean, they've, that'sbeen, that's kind of been done,
(24:28):
but when I was looking at it, I was like, it's, it's dangerous
to use it. In fact, back when again, the
first time I heard you say this,which was months and months ago,
I was like, if I touch AII have to spend 10 times as much time
on the task, going back and making sure everything is real,
it's easier to just do it myself.
I with with Grok point, you know, 407, I don't know what
(24:49):
version we're on right now, 4000.
It's getting good. It's, it's getting to the point
where I'm going. Whoa, now I'll tell you that
it's still not, it's still not at the point where I'm going.
I'm, I'm not looking at a careerchange anytime soon, but I am at
the point where I'm going. This is, this is moving so much
(25:12):
faster than people can even truly understand.
And it's, and it's doing it withincreasing accuracy at this
point now using using Grok. And if you, and if you know how
to do it, you can pretty much get 6070% through a case by
yourself, you'd be an idiot to do it for all the emotional
aspects of it and for all the, the, the, the rest of the 30%,
(25:35):
which makes a difference betweenwhether you go to jail or not,
but, or when the case or not. But, but you can.
And so anyways, the, the, just anote on the fact that, that from
the minute from the time you setit to now, which has not been
that long. And you know, probably speaking,
the development is just insane And it's getting better every
day. It is getting better.
And so the, I guess the take away is that the I'm in
(26:00):
alignment with you on this one. And not only that, but I think
that the more the, the, the better it gets.
I think there's going to be a, abigger premium on the, the
things that AI can never do, which is the spirituality.
And I, and I think that, and I think that when, when you phrase
it that way, all of a sudden this sort of, I think
spirituality might become the, the gold or oil of the future.
(26:26):
And, and I use that word spirituality very loosely.
I don't mean religion necessarily, I mean humanity,
right? And I think we see generation
after generation after generation losing more and more
of that and craving more and more of it, you know,
perspectively. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I mean I think technology and spirituality are fundamentally
at odds and so the better, like the better AI gets, there has to
(26:50):
be a counter reaction somewhere.And you know these pure belief
assets is my bet. Yeah, the I want to get a little
philosophical, if that's OK. I've been wrestling this is, I
do this to myself, moron. I'll, I'll, someone will say
something and I'll sort of sit there and think about it, digest
it, and then I'll revisit it again and again and again.
(27:11):
And then so sometimes people say, oh, you know, blue, you're
so articulate. You've, you know, you, you're
able to articulate it so quickly.
The truth is, it's not I can't, I've just thought about it
incessantly. And, and so financial nihilism.
You've talked at length about this, I think even dating back
to token 2049 and even before you've positioned SPX and
(27:35):
others, APU, others, the whole the whole asset class as a
rejection of financial nihilism.But I can't help but see in
that. And I I, I don't know if you Rex
Takashi from Bobo was on the stream of last week or I can't
remember. I think it was exactly a week
ago actually. And, and he, he didn't kind of
like a very funny version of it,which is he put on his, he does
(27:58):
like the, the V tubing thing, you know, with the PNG and he
put on one that looks like you. And he was like, he was like,
everything sucks. You'll never have sex again.
The world is awful by my coin. And it was hilarious.
But more to the point, it, it's,it's also, there's truth to
that, right? I, I, I couldn't help but, but
think that within this entire thesis, there seems to be, it's
(28:22):
either an acknowledgement or an acceptance of financial
nihilism. And I had a wizard on here from
Y2K and we were talking about that a little bit about to, to,
to get to the point of everything is a meme.
I can't think of a more nihilistic view.
And, and I don't mean that pejoratively or with a negative
connotation. I just mean how do you reconcile
(28:44):
accepting the like most profoundlevel of of nihilism and
recognizing and then doing this hard 180° pivot and and
rejecting it? Can you color in the lines for
that a little bit so? I mean, I'm sure you've noticed
that like the quote UN quote meme coin space or the meme coin
industry, meme coin asset class,whatever you want to call it.
As I've already alluded to earlier on this call, like half
(29:09):
of it is hyper gambling. And I think that is a clear
symptom of pure financial nihilism.
And I think the other half of itis trying to build something
more long term. And I think that's a better
example of rejecting nihilism and trying to actually find
(29:29):
financial optimism, right? Because when we say believe in
something, what does that actually mean, right?
That means believing in each other.
That means believing that we aregoing to continue persisting
forever. That means believing that like
our mission will resonate with other people that might have not
seen it yet, etcetera, etcetera,etcetera, right?
(29:49):
And essentially, it's trying to be a bloomer instead of a doomer
and expressing that by holding something for a long time rather
than hyper gambling 10 coins perday, right?
I think the hyper gambling is pure financial nihilism, but I
think banding together with loyal people that you can see
(30:11):
are here and are not giving up, I think that's that's not
financial nihilism. I think that's the rejection of
it. Right.
But to reject it is to acknowledge it.
Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think it's
like the it's, it's a, there's adistinction there.
There's a fine line that you're walking when you say, for
example, I think on a, on a conceptual level, on an
ideological level, if I wanted to attack the thesis, I would
(30:33):
need to attack it, not on the thesis itself.
I think it's a losing fight, I think, I think if you, if you
are fighting the thesis at the level of the thesis, you lose
every time. But if you go into the actual,
the, the premises of the thesis,right?
I think that's where there's a discussion of is the world
really as bad as the video that you have pinned to your I, I I
(30:57):
don't think that was token 2049.This is the the the this is the
video that I originally memed the the 500 reasons, 150 reasons
this, this video, this presentation.
So. So here's the thing, right, the
world might be better in absolute terms, but I think the
but it's worse in relative terms.
And this is what you got to understand.
(31:18):
The human psyche has developed when it comes to like the
evolution of the brain and happiness humans have developed
relative to the village. You know what I mean?
And so people say that right nowa lower middle class person in
the Second World has better amenities than the king of the
(31:41):
land in the 8th century, right? Yeah, but it doesn't matter
because right, the like the, the, the lower middle class guy
is going to suffer more psychologically.
And the the reason is, I mean, this is going to be a little bit
controversial, but I think ultimately it has to do with
(32:02):
like biological and sexual status hierarchies and like
family formation. And the king, he might have been
like bathing in dirt, but he would have like he would have
like a large family. He would have kids more like
multiple kids with multiple 1, whatever, right?
And so from a mammalian point ofview, he would be successful,
right? But you know, a lower middle
(32:24):
class guy, he might have more food and access to like Uber and
stuff or whatever, Netflix entertainment technology than
the king like 1500 years ago, but he'll be less happy.
And so you have to realize that the human mind, it is a social
animal, right? And and so now when we delve
into that, you have to come backto the statistics that, you
(32:46):
know, wealth inequality highest in 50 years, income inequality
highest in 50 years, house priceto wage gap highest in 50 years,
right? And remember, relative to what,
relative to what I said, fertility at an all time low,
family formation at an all time low, there's a, this is arguably
(33:08):
the first generation ever financially speaking, right,
whose lives are harder than their parents and grandparents,
right? Correct.
Because in the 70s, you could buy a house for like $1800 or
something, right? And, and right now this is
crazy. Like, this is unthinkable.
(33:29):
And now when you couple this with the fact that there is like
skyrocketing mental health issues, loneliness,
irreligiosity, meaninglessness, and to wrap it all up with a
background of inflation, it causes all kinds of inequalities
in society, right? And it's these inequalities that
(33:51):
make people suffer. And I think essentially it boils
down to this, having a house andhaving like a wife and a child,
that used to be something that everybody got right, right.
But now I think with every passing day, these things are
becoming a luxury. And I think that, and I think
(34:14):
that 1520 years from now, it's going to be an ultra luxury,
right? And people, I think that's, I
think you, you can't deny that. And you know, yes, we, we, we
now all have Netflix and maybe there's like less war or, or
less starvation, but I think there's now in terms of the
(34:35):
median human life, there's like what's human connection?
And this is the source of the suffering.
I also think to some extent Murad, I think I actually think
because life has never been easier.
People have never been more miserable.
I think that when your concerns or that a leopard might eat you,
you know, and you have to fight off a rhinoceros or something, I
think that like a rainy day is not so bad.
(34:58):
You know, having to go get food is not that big of a deal.
And I think that our minds, yeah, yes, I think that's part
of it. And so by the way, I think the
very being a part of crypto, at least for me personally, has
been, it's been so challenging, but it's also been so rewarding
and fulfilling. And I see it every day and with
(35:19):
the people that we interact withand, and the things that are
happening in this space. So I think just being a part of
a community where there's this constant objective and this
goal, I think that's good for the soul.
I think, I think that by itself is medicine for the soul.
There's a few things I want to ask you.
I know, I know. We don't have too much time
left, so let me just just get straight to it #1 the APUS will
kill me, Maraud, if I don't ask you this.
(35:40):
Admiral Nimitz, are you familiar?
That's the name of a ship I believe.
It might be the name of the ship.
It's the name of an iguana. Are you familiar with the
iguana? And not not the specific 1.
So I'm familiar with iguana the the animal, yes.
OK, so, so in I don't know if you know this, this is everyone
(36:01):
needs to take out a pen to writethis down in, in APU lore, you
have an iguana. You had an iguana and it was
kidnapped by APU. I don't know if you know this.
I don't know if you're aware of this pet iguana you have in the
APU lore. And so and the it's actually
even more tragic because it sounds like you're not even
aware that the iguana passed away not too long ago.
(36:23):
And so that was people just wanted to know if you're,
you're, you're, if you were aware of the iguana and if and
if and what the iguana meant to you.
That was just a, again, part of APU lore that they would kill me
if I didn't ask you. And so I, I told them that I'd
ask you about Admiral Nimitz. And you can see in the, in the
comments, they, they loved, theyloved Admiral Nimitz.
(36:44):
I believe he was a real iguana. Marad.
I just, he's clearly wasn't youriguana, but he, but I think it
was a real iguana that they dedicated to you.
So I think is the story, at any rate, sounds like unfortunately
you were not aware, but now you do know.
So that's great. And I have to ask you about
NFTSII. Remember that there was a point
in time where you were NF TS were on your radar.
(37:08):
I feel like I've seen them less and less.
So that might not be true. That might just be me making
something up. How important do you think NF TS
still are to the meme coin culture and and what do you
think is is next for them in terms of how communities are
going to start using them? I think as the crypto space
(37:32):
becomes wealthier overall, I think rare NFTS are going to act
as a digital equivalent of like a luxury watch, right?
And because humans are going to spend an increasing percentage
of their time online or in virtual worlds.
So I think having this relatively scarce digital good
is going to signal a, your belonging to a certain tribe.
(37:56):
And two, the fact like kind of like a flex that you either have
a rare item or you were at A at the right place at the right
time early, right? So I think that's like the
that's like the functionality that it will play.
But I still, I still think that the coin is a better expression
of both like faith and speculation.
And so that's why it does better.
(38:17):
How many I believe? I believe you've answered this
before, so forgive me if you have.
I'm sorry I don't believe you'veactually answered this part of
the question. I I believe you do own APU NFTS
but I was wondering how many? I think you said once that your
favorite trait were the hats or the globes.
My favorite trait is the Roman Empire at the top of the head
(38:38):
with the French with the French fries and and all that.
Well, I have to. OK, so if you're going to say
that, I have to ask you, excluding meme coins, OK, non
crypto, what is your Roman Empire?
Good question, good question. You know, a lot of people, they
(39:08):
yearn for the past, but for me, I was always more interested in
the future. You know, I actually think that,
you know, the obsession that certain Chad's call them right,
certain certain men that they have with either returning to
(39:31):
the 1950s or returning to the 1700s or returning to the Roman
Empire. At the risk of sounding on
empathetic, I think this is an expression of them not being
sort of satisfied with the current existence, which of
(39:55):
course is obviously understandable.
But for me, I was more interested in the future than
the past. And so instead of being
interested in history, which I was interested in, I was much
more interested in science fiction and trying to like,
figure out what's going to happen in like 2100 or 2050.
Obviously reading a lot of science fiction books, you know,
(40:17):
Dyson spheres, Kardashev 2, you know, Matrushka brains and all
that. And so I'm, I'm more interested
in like change rather than the past.
And I always thought that obsessions with the past were
actually unproductive because itwill just never happen.
Like we will never go back to that.
We will never even go back to like 2005, right?
(40:39):
So I think it's like from, from a survival point of view, it's
much more productive to try to figure out what's going to
happen rather than to be obsessed with the nitty gritty
of what happened, right? Because if you can even remotely
or approximately correctly predict what's going to happen
in the future, you can position yourself and your family in a
(41:02):
way to benefit from that, right?And that's why I'm all about
like trends and like extending them further rather than.
Right, there are two charts I, Iwant you to look at that
actually coincide to, to a little bit of what you're saying
and what we've talked about here.
You mentioned it earlier and, and, and I think I've said it
before as well that, that there will, there is a limit.
I've, I've suggested that there.And I think maybe you have two,
(41:24):
that there's a finite number of meme coins that can be launched.
There's, there has, you know, there has to be, there's a
particular person who was talking about me and shared a
graph that they'd made that I thought was very interesting.
They go by the name of Midget whale, but they, they share this
graph. And I was just wondering if what
your, what your impression on itwas.
(41:45):
And I think what it, what this is illustrating is, you know,
and in, in the conversation is that there, there is sort of
deflationary aspect or perhaps momentum that, that you cannot
just create more and more meme coins.
You know, you can't increase thehash rate of culture, basically,
right? There's, there's, there's you're
(42:05):
mining an infinite amount, but you're, or you're not mining an
infinite amount of memes. How?
What are What are your impressions of that?
I actually think like the the absolute number of memes can go
to Infinity. Really.
What's more important though, isI think there's a scarce number
of meme coins that can reach critical mass.
That's that's like my whole thing because I don't care
(42:29):
about. So here's the thing right the
the amount of meme coins will probably go grow faster than
because it's going to become like cheaper to make them right
by the dozen. The amount of meme coins will
grow faster than the amount of capital that is flowing into
meme coins. I think that's a pretty safe
assumption to make. And if that's true, then the
(42:55):
logical result of this is it doesn't matter because that
means that the average meme coins market cap ceiling will go
down. And there's already data to
support this, right? So if there's going to be more
meme coins, that means that their average size will be
smaller. And ultimately me personally,
(43:17):
right? Me personally, I don't care
about which meme coin is going to go to like 1 or 2 million.
I care about which mean coin cango to like 300 billion, one
trillion, right? And so my whole thing has been
like just theoretically, doesn'tmatter how improbable it is, but
what can go to hundreds of billions?
And that's the only thing I careabout, right?
(43:38):
And for me, for something to go to hundreds of billions, it
essentially needs to have like unbelievable levels of like
spirituality, loyalty, diamond handedness, free cult labor and
everything that we've discussed,right?
So for me, I'm, I'm more, I'm more interested in like critical
mass than the absolute number ofmeme coins.
(43:59):
Like I'm already, I'm living under the assumption that
there's going to be like quadrillions of meme coins.
So I'm more interested in critical mass.
And when it comes to critical mass, there's probably only
going to be like maybe five of them, maybe three of them,
right? Right.
Like a tiny amount. So that's what I care about.
I on that note, it's funny you say that.
(44:20):
I I one last chart I want to show you.
What do you think of this one? This one was drawn by APU
himself. As you can see, it was drawn in
crayon. I'll give you a minute here.
What we have here is the distribution of capital among
coins right on our Y, We have time.
This was a period of expansion, innovation, launchpads, Icos,
(44:41):
the novelty of it all and trends.
And here we have sort of this contraction and consolidation
and rotation of of capital. So this isn't value of coins or
anything like that. I don't know how much I agree
that what we see with the star. I don't know how much I agree
that we are there. In fact, if you look at the
number of pump fun coins that have graduated or bonded,
(45:02):
whatever the words that they're using now, it, it looks kind of
similar to this chart. So I agree, I agree with this
chart. Like this is literally my
thesis, but I don't think the it's, I don't think it's going
to be Christmas tree shaped. I think it's going to be more
like a hill shape. Does that make sense?
(45:23):
OK. Yeah.
You don't think it's going to bea rapid mass consolidation, you
think it'll be gradual? I do think it's going to be a
bit more gradual, but I do agreewith the overall idea here and
the idea being the more coins there are, the stronger cults
will become because like how will a coin differentiate itself
(45:44):
from another? It's by its people.
And, you know, it takes time to build that kind of like that
kind of loyalty, that kind of passion.
I think it takes a year at least.
And if there's going to be more and more coins launched per day,
that means there's actually going to be fewer and fewer
cults ultimately. And that's why you should bet on
(46:05):
those. You should.
You should hold things that other people are holding.
Does that make sense? And that will hold I I wanna so
it, it, it put it there's some again.
I I've obsessed about this a little bit.
I'm sure you can relate The another way that I've thought
about this and and I wanna get your take on this as well, is
that if the amount of meme coinsbeing produced is analogous to
(46:28):
the universe expanding matter being just dispersed all
throughout the universe, then I posit that the mimetic value of
the coins is something of a gravity.
And that essentially, and that'swhat we're that's what that's
what this really is, right? And that essentially gravity or
the, the mimetic power, the mimetic weight in the
(46:49):
communities themselves, right? The communities or the gravity
will be the force just like it. Gravity is the is mass putting
itself back together. It's the universe putting itself
back together, gravity and the community and the, and the
mimetic power is going to be this asset class putting itself
back together. And that's why I think that
you're going to see people eventually go, oh, fartcoin 420
(47:12):
blaze it #1000 didn't work. Let's look at where the mass
really is. And, and, and that's, that's
sort of how that's, that's positioned.
What do you think of that? Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree.
And also I think the average person like the way crypto works
is that once every four years towards the like the last four
(47:34):
or five months of the four year cycle, there's like a wave of
retail comps, right? And I think most people, they
don't want to hyper gamble all day long.
I think most people, the averageperson, right, at least as far
as retail is concerned. And definitely, if institutions
are concerned, they actually want to buy and hold rather than
(47:55):
like gamble, right? And the problem is that half a
year ago, the average holding time for a coin used to be like
a few minutes. And right now we're down to 39.
Well, we're down to 39 seconds. And actually a few weeks ago was
45 seconds and now it's already 39.
And I think it's going to keep going down because AI is going
(48:16):
to come for meme coin trading also.
Yeah, right. And like AI, high frequency
trading funds market makers, like prop algo traders, they
will, they will embed themselvesdeeper and deeper into like the
launchpad game or whatever. Coming back to this thing, which
is like human belief is the onlything that you can't quite
(48:39):
easily disrupt. And so in order to make money in
meme coins, ask yourself which things will people believe in
for like 3-4, five years rather than buy, rather than just like
trade. And and and you know, one of the
last things I'll say before. I ask you our wrap up questions
is that it's funny, every time they release that number, it's
(49:00):
going to get shorter because theculture is at front running.
I'm gonna OK if it if the if thenow it's the average is 49.
I'm out at 48 right 'cause statistically I'll make more
money that way. But how do you front run?
It's race to the bottom. It's race, but how do?
You front run forever. You don't.
I think it will plateau around. One or two seconds.
No, no, no. Well, what I mean is no, that's
(49:21):
what I mean. What I.
Mean is, when I look at pump Funshooter #1 million, right?
I'm gonna go now. It's 35 seconds, 39 seconds, so
I'll go 38, right? But when I look at a coin like
APU or SPX, and I know that these people will hold forever,
how can I front run that? I can't front run forever.
So, so it you know, it's it's it's I'm now that I'm I'm you're
(49:42):
saying it this way and I'm thinking about it.
These other coins in the tradingspace, they are, like you said,
a race to the bottom. It's a race to to, to seconds
and and there's a negative feedback loop.
It the shorter it gets, the shorter it will get.
It has to it will you know what will happen?
It will follow the same. Rough structure as the online
(50:03):
poker boom of 2006, where at first there was like a lot of
retail players and then they realized that they were like the
fish. And ultimately by like 2012, it
was just the sharks left. Yeah.
Playing and the Sharks, yeah. Exactly.
And the sharks are going to be the AIS.
And the and the hardcore Quan funds and ultimately you'll have
(50:26):
to go find like a better game, right.
By the way, the first question that my.
That one my friend asked when hewas he was looking to move in
size into some of these. He goes, he says to me, how do I
know they won't rug me? And I said, because they would
have done it already, right? And it would the culture, the
(50:46):
culture, it is not like that. It's different.
And so, but you can, you can also if you you can.
Trust your gut, but you can alsokind of see on chain what
they've done so far, right? And and take it from there.
Right. Yeah.
And and, and by the way, you know, it's funny the, you know,
I, I, I. I'll, I'll go to people and I'll
say, hey, what should I ask Murad?
(51:08):
What should I ask? I, I get people's input.
I, I, I, I think about things. Do you know what the most common
answer I get the most common question people want me to ask
you, which is funny because you've, you've answered it 1000
times. How are you going to sell?
And, and I've, I've told them, not only have I told them that,
that this answer is out there, I've also told them I said, is
it, is it really, is it really so surprising to think that
(51:32):
maybe the man won't sell? I mean, is it at a certain
point, after there's a certain amount of money, some things
matter more than money, especially when you're when
you're at a certain point. And is is it, is it, is it?
I don't know why some people have a hard time believing that
the legacy, the the ideological contribution of what this work,
your work, these communities work, what this means isn't more
(51:56):
valuable than X dollars. And it's surprising to me that a
lot of people don't see that. And so I just, I, I guess some,
you know, you know, I'm not, I'mnot going to ask you the
question again, 'cause I, I, again, it's been answered so
many times. But the, the question I will ask
you is just this, how important to you on a personal level, on a
spiritual level, is this work that you're doing as it pertains
(52:18):
to your contribution not just tothis space, but to the world?
I mean, of course it's important, otherwise I wouldn't
be doing. This for like 18 hours a day
right? You know when I see when I'm in
a space. And I see one anonymous
listener. I just assume it's you.
I just assume that's that's the point that we've got.
Sometimes. Sometimes that's the case, yeah.
As I know very well, Rod, thank you SO.
(52:40):
So much if do you have any any final thoughts or closing
thoughts for for our audience oror for anyone else that's that's
listening, believe in something and persist forever.
Absolutely right. Thank you so, so much.
We really. Appreciate it.
Thank you. All right.
And guys, we are going to take a.
Quick break here before we come back with sad succulent ham and
(53:01):
we will see you guys very, very soon.
It's a very special stream, you're not going to want to miss
it, so stay tuned. Thank you guys so much and I'll
see you guys next time or in a few minutes.
Good afternoon, good evening, really everyone.
Welcome back to another episode of Pawn Talk.
This is Pawn Talk, the fastest growing memecoin crypto talk
show that reinvests in communities that you and I both
love. The director for today's show is
LFG Triple O. The producer is Tim at Tim to
Kill And I, of course, my name is Blue and I'm your host for
the night. Today's a very special stream
because we have a recurring guest here for us here to
(00:40):
continue the conversation that I've been told has been one of
the favorites, a fan favorite for multiple reasons.
And so I I don't want to get I don't want to get into too much
of A spiel before we start here,but I'm just gonna I'm just
gonna bring him back up. The one the only.
Maraud Rod, thank you so much for joining us today.
How are you doing? How's it going man?
Thanks for having me. It's going good.
(01:02):
It's going good. I'll be honest, I I was injured
not too long ago playing soccer,I got very serious turf burn.
So I haven't really been able toto run for like 2 weeks.
It's killing me. It's just been killing me.
There's people, you know, you get into a routine and people
don't really appreciate and, andfully value how much exercise
truly matters. And then you get out of that
(01:22):
routine and it's, you know, it just, it throws everything out
of whack. Yeah, I I feel you.
I hope you get better soon man. Oh, I think, yeah, it's, it's,
you know, we're, it's, we're at the tail end of it here.
But at at any rate, bring this back to something you you talked
about, which is consistency, howimportant that is.
(01:44):
The first thing that I just wanted to get right into is
we've talked about the public belief or excuse me, the pure
belief, pure belief asset and, and this sort of the cognosphere
and, and where this is going. When people ask you and when
people talk about the pure belief asset, what, what does
(02:08):
that really mean? Why are we renaming it?
It, it feels as though we're creating a, and, and I don't
mean this I, I actually mean this positively.
Like I think it's a good thing that there's this separate thing
that's sort of evolving and emerging.
But from your perspective, why, why do you think it matters?
And it's significant enough to designate a brand new
(02:30):
classification for for these kinds of assets.
When you say you're renaming, what are you implying it got
renamed from? Well, I think that perhaps a
renaming isn't the right term, but this new, this new
description, and perhaps it's not new.
Perhaps it's new to me. From a meme coin to a pure
belief asset. Yeah.
(02:51):
So, OK, I, I understand this is,this has kind of been the crux
of my thesis for the past eight or nine months.
But obviously meme coins have dominated in 2024 and back in
March and April of 2024, when a lot of meme coins were getting
(03:11):
launched, when a lot of launch pads were getting launched, it
was already obvious to a lot of people that there's going to be
a whole lot more of them. So the very first step for you
as an investor, you first of all, you have to make a choice,
right? Are you going to be like an
intraday intra week fast-paced trader slash hyper gambler or
(03:36):
are you going to be an investor slash believer, right?
And for me personally, I didn't want to do the whole 20 hours in
front of the screen like hyper gambling part on three monitors.
Immediately I went to the OK, ifI was to even try to be a long
term investor, right or a long term believer, how do I, how do
(04:00):
I choose them right? And this is kind of, and I think
I posted this three or four times by now, but that is like
the whole pyramid that I've beenposting a few times.
Essentially, this combines 2 key, two key bullet points.
First of all, it was obvious that we would reach a point
(04:20):
where there would be like billions of meme coins, right?
And we're kind of like slowly inching towards that.
And you know, back in the day, you would have 100 new meme
coins per day. Then it would be 1000.
I think on some days you have like multiple thousand now,
right? And I think depending on how big
this crypto cycle becomes, how much retail joins the cycle, we
(04:41):
might even reach a point where it's going to be like 25,000 new
coins per day. I'm sure you wouldn't be
surprised if something like thathappens, right?
And so the way I dealt with thatpsychologically or as an
investor, I told myself, let's imagine a world in which there's
going to be like literally quadrillions of meme coins,
(05:02):
right? Let's imagine a world where
there's a meme coin for every word, for every animal, for
every meme, for every number, for literally everything, right?
And you have to ask yourself, like, what is going to thrive in
that world? That's number one.
And I guess to answer that question, this brings me to
(05:25):
bullet point #2 which is if you've been following crypto for
like 2 or 3 cycles, you have to ask yourself, what has been the
common thread among long lastingwinners, right?
And in order to answer that, youfirst need to list the long
lasting winners, right? BTC, ETH, XRP, Cardano, link,
(05:47):
Doge ship to some extent back inthe day, Tao, right, from
earlier this cycle. And you have to ask yourself,
what is the thing that is like uniting all of these seemingly
different coins? And the answer is that they have
borderline cult like communitiesthat are very passionate.
(06:08):
So essentially that's been like the insight here, right?
If, if there's going to be billions of meme coins, you have
to invest in cults. That's been kind of like my
thesis. And then I kind of gradually
took it a level further. I said, OK, well, what's after?
If, if, if, if the evolution of superior meme coins is cults,
What's the next thing after cults?
(06:30):
And that's where we come to brand coins, lifestyle coins.
And then you have to ask yourself like what's after that?
And in my opinion, it's movementcoins, right?
It's like things that are much bigger where essentially where
the act of buying the thing allows you to effectively
(06:50):
amplify a certain idea and make it be heard louder and bigger in
the world. And effectively, you know how a
lot of people say, OK, like a democracy doesn't work, let's
vote with our money instead. And I think this is like kind of
like a small example of that. Now you can even ask yourself
like, what's after movements? And I guess that's the next
chapter. But ultimately what's what's
(07:12):
after that is I think we are witnessing what I call the hyper
financialization of spirituality, right?
Or in other words, spirituality and finance are merging into
one. And instead of, instead of like
a company capturing like profit margins with revenue here, you
(07:34):
effectively like, instead of therevenue, you have like people
buying the token itself. And they're effectively like, I
mean, this sounds a bit crazy, but I think like you are
promoting that idea. And you are, you know, because
if you think about it, right, meme coins, they're not equity,
they're not debt, they're not currency, and they're not quite
(07:57):
like tech altcoins either, whichare like promising future
revenue or fees or whatever. So like, what are they?
And my argument for like the past 14 months has been that
meme coins, they are financialized vessels of faith.
And effectively, I think at the risk of sounding a little bit
(08:18):
sacrilegious, but I think what meme coins are essentially every
single meme coin, it's like a micro church and the whether
it's the LP pool on Uniswap or an order book on a centralized
exchange doesn't matter. They're essentially the
approximate equivalent of the donation box at a church.
(08:40):
But you can kind of put money inor put money out as your faith
strengthens or weakens. Does that make sense?
And I mean. Essentially my idea is as
capitalism, or to be more precise, techno capitalism,
extends its claws across every facet of society.
(09:00):
It's now coming for ideas and spirituality as well.
Like it obviously originally it came for the tangibles like
metals and gold and factories, but now it's kind of slowly like
a like a giant invisible octopus.
It's coming for the intangibles,right?
And this is where this idea of concepts, ideas, spirituality
(09:23):
comes in. And now effectively people to
some extent, I think are disillusioned with the system in
many ways. And they're, they're like, OK, I
don't want to buy those like overpriced boomer assets
anymore. I'm going to buy these like new
emergent assets now. And in a way, it's a, it's an
act of dissent, right? It's an actual.
(09:44):
Sure. It's protest.
It's protest. Right.
And, and, and I think we're still relatively early to this
whole story. OK, so, so on that note,
there's, there's so many sort ofdifferent loose ends or that I,
I want to chase down. But I think the first one is
that it's interesting because you almost present this idea of
spirituality and finance mingling as kind of novel or
(10:06):
innovative in some way. And with, I know you like to say
apolitical to a certain extent. So I'm going to do that as as
best as possible. But I think through a historical
lens, there's a really good argument to be made that pretty
much the second religion was created, money was, was, you
know, interwoven with it. And in many cases, the one, you
know, egged the other on just depending on on the period and,
(10:29):
and the actors involved. Would you agree that that on a
conceptual level, this actually purely on a conceptual level,
that this has happened before, that this that in and of itself
isn't, isn't the innovation, that it's something other than
that in this case? I I would agree with that and I
would also use examples of like the British East India Company,
(10:52):
Dutch East India Company as examples of that as well.
Because you know, during certainperiods, these quasi corporate
entities, they were stronger than nation states, right?
And the financial assets that they were interwoven with were
some of the most valuable assetsin the world, right?
So definitely, definitely agree with that.
(11:15):
So to the, to the point about the, the, the belief in the
faith, I mean, you know, we, we've heard this before.
And I, one of the things that there, there was a person who
has been watching the show and approached me about, you know,
that they come from Bitcoin, butthey were one of these sort of
not interested Bitcoin investors.
And they were, they were, I was talking about the thesis about
(11:37):
APU, about SBX, but all these things.
And, and one of the things, you know, I, I, I said that the tag
line stop trading and, and believe in something.
And one of the things that kind of hit me, I said, you know, I
walked away from the conversation and I said to
myself, OK, but so I believe nowwhat?
And so I, I wrote this down. I, I said, so you believe now
(11:59):
what? Like for for you once, once
you've reached the point where aperson believes right in in, in
their their coin of conviction, whatever that might be, what
then needs to happen on a on an individual level?
And then on a broader level, what are the next steps?
(12:21):
So a combination of things. One concept that I think is
really relevant to the answer here is what some people refer
to as free cult labor. What is that?
That's essentially a community participant providing their
quote UN quote services for free, right?
So, you know, many of these coins, they have software
(12:43):
engineers, designers, you know, lawyers in your case, and a lot
of other sort of experts, right?And in their day-to-day life, in
their nine to five, let's say, they would charge, I don't know,
$500.00 an hour for their services, right?
But here, because they love the mission so much and because
(13:05):
they're so passionate about the idea, they are going to provide
those valuable services for free.
And when you multiply that by thousands of talented people
kind of binding together, that'swhere you get these, like,
advantages. Like a corporation or even a
country would have to pay its people to provide these
(13:26):
services, right? But here, because they love the
idea so much, because they want to expand that sort of memetic
force, because they're so, because they resonate and align
with it emotionally so much, they're going to give it for
free. And I think that is one of the
several advantages of these sortof decentralized coin networks,
communities, whatever you want to call them.
(13:48):
When you when you say, OK, so that and I think that's fair.
And I've, you know, I've been saying that the, one of the
things I love the most about APU, by the way, the minute I
joined was I noticed how people were sort of bartering in this
way, right? I say barter just to denote sort
of a very unsophisticated methodof, of exchanging things with
one another. But it wasn't really, it wasn't
(14:09):
like a bizarre, I mean, it wasn't like a some kind of
market. It was more of, hey, I can give
you in. In my case, it was, I can give
you some pointers on what to do with this legal situation.
Can you help me with diet, Right.
In some cases it's tiling. In some cases it's software like
it's, it's all kinds of stuff. And I was just immediately drawn
into how, how willing people were to just help one another.
(14:32):
And so I definitely see that. But I think that there are some
people and, and I'd hope you'd agree.
As you know, you focus quite a lot on the disenfranchised young
man and woman who who have really just been pushed to the
outskirts of, of society. And I think a lot of these
people, they don't see them. Whether it's true or not is kind
of irrelevant. I, I think anyone can provide
something, but they don't see themselves as, as being able to
(14:55):
provide anything sometimes. And So what?
And even if they can, it's not always it's not always something
that is immediately and equally applicable to the mission,
right? If, if, if I own a restaurant,
there's not always unless someone else is trying to do the
same. And I have like advice that's,
you know, pertains to them. There's not a whole lot I can
(15:15):
contribute in terms of the free quote labor the.
I think what I think what IA lotof people that might not have
like a professional skill. What they're doing is they are
essentially like bull posting onsocial media.
They are rating in the Twitter comments.
They're creating TikTok videos, doing Reddit posts, YouTube
shorts rating all of the comments on those other social
(15:37):
media platforms as well printingout stickers like, you know,
creating merchandise that are there giving away for free or at
cost. So I feel like even if you're,
even if you don't have a particular like special skill,
there's still so much you can do.
Right, right. But the, the, the reason I say
this is, you know, Cal and I have been talking a lot about
(16:00):
these things and he's been doingjust incredible work on his on
his own, but he's been kind of putting in a lot of intellectual
effort into thinking and dreaming up of what is, what is
this PBA? What does this really mean?
Are we creating a decentralized company, so to speak?
And is it a corporation? And, and, and he using these
words not not to denote intent, but structure, right?
(16:24):
How, how, how is this, you know,And if so, what is the product?
I think that the, the, the sort of the angle that I'm going down
is at what point and in what ways are these virtual and
digital things? How do they manifest into real
world initiatives? I'll give you an example.
(16:48):
Currently, APU has our APU the world initiative where people
are, you know, taking these stickers, posting them and, and
onboarding people this way. And, and that's the partnership
we have with Moon Shot. There are, I think I saw
somebody in SPX that's going on this like tour across, I think
it was Southern California, if I, if I'm not mistaken,
(17:08):
literally charting like an actual tour, like a musician to,
to sort of go city by city. And this is someone with like
that has, I think it's going to be more than just walking around
talking to random people, but towhat extent and, and how, how
can we expect, what's the evolution of this?
How do, how do these communitiesand their belief manifest into
actual, real world, if we, for lack of a better term, avatars
(17:32):
or symbols of that faith? And, and what's the actual, I
use this word utility? Not, not in the crypto sense, in
a sort of practical sense. What are we looking at?
What, what do you think? How's that going to develop?
Yeah. So that's a great question.
I think there are many avenues here.
I think you know some of the some of the meme coins of this
(17:56):
cycle, they will go on to build products, you know, whether it
is clothing, whether it is software.
Some I think are going to becomelike Defy investment funds or DA
OS. I think some will pursue more
sort of charitable causes. So it kind of depends on the
(18:16):
nature of the coin and what their specific community members
are passionate about. But I think there's a lot that
you can do here. Do you think how much does this
coincide with? Last time you said it?
I absolutely loved it. Memes are teams.
To what extent do those two things overlap?
And and then I have some more questions about the the memes
(18:38):
and teams thing. Yes, I think that's a great
question. You know, a lot of people pay a
lot of money to be parts of likecountry clubs, you know, gyms,
yoga studios, fraternities, whatever.
And I think that this is simply a continuation of that story,
(18:58):
another framework more sort of from a Silicon Valley kind of
lingo. You know, I'm sure you're
familiar with B to B businesses,I'm sure you're familiar with B
to C businesses. And I think these networks, they
are examples of C to C businesses, right?
(19:20):
So essentially we communicate, transact and unite with one
another directly without an intermediary, without any
central like quote, quote, UN quote B.
And I think a lot of people finda lot of value in that right,
depending on a particular meme coin's mission.
(19:42):
So it sounds it, it, it, it sounds abstract, but I think in
this case, the journey together is the product.
The community is the product andand everything in between, like
all of the all of the emotions, all of the journey, all of the
adventure together. Maybe if you're not, if you're
(20:04):
if you're somebody who's like already extremely sociable and
extroverted, this like might sound weird to you, but I think
to an increasingly large hyper online and isolated demographic,
this definite this this definitely has like product
market fit. OK.
For much on the same vein as that memes are teams.
(20:30):
You know a lot of this is decentralized.
When when you say teams, what does that mean practically
speaking? I think it depends.
It is different from coin to coin.
Some are a little bit more centralized, some are more
decentralized, but I genuinely, I think there's a sweet spot
(20:52):
because if it's like too centralized, we we know that's a
bad thing because likely the supply centralized as well and
decision making is far too in the hands of far too people.
On the other hand, if something is way too decentralized, that's
bad also because there is no kind of critical mass of like
call it 40 lieutenants or so that like are super motivated to
(21:17):
make things happen. So I think there's like a sweet
spot, there's a sweet spot between centralization and
decentralization, but I personally like learn more
towards the decentralized side. What's something that you see in
teams that makes you bullish? Delayed gratification.
(21:38):
Literally holding for as long aspossible without selling.
Being frugal in their own personal lives, behaving as if
they're not interested in short term profit but rather in like
long term mission, and just being super super active every
day no matter what. Yeah.
(21:59):
Is there a what, what advice do you have if you know?
Undoubtedly there, there are so many, even I think even within
the, the 10, even within the list that are still trying to
figure out this sweet spot of reaching this, this maximum
efficiency. Because I think part of this is
also a, a matter of efficiency. I think that sometimes there are
(22:22):
too many cooks in the kitchen. There are too few cooks in the
kitchen. And, and, and so there, I think
they're, it's, it's about harmony, you know, or all of the
sectors, whether you have creators, whether you have the,
the, the analysts, what, what, whatever it is, it's different
people that fit into these different roles.
Is there harmony among them? Are, are you know, are they
(22:43):
moving in tandem? What advice do you have to other
communities that are figuring itout?
How, how, what's what's the bestway or the the the most
streamlined way for them to figure that out?
Yeah, this, I think this ties inwith industrial organization.
And I kind of always jokingly say that a lot of like the meme
(23:03):
coins, they're closer to fulfilling the DAO dream from
2015 than a lot of the D5DA OS, which are essentially just
glorified multi 6. You know, there's been a lot of
research done with software engineering teams, and I believe
they found that 7 to 8 team members are the most optimal,
(23:24):
for example. Well, who knows what that number
is when it comes to like crypto coins, but that's just like an
illustrative example. But what I would say is these
are essentially new forms of human organization that block
chains and decentralized networks have enabled.
And yeah, it's still early days,right?
(23:46):
And I think, you know, we can focus on the money and, like,
where will the flows come from and who will buy what?
And is our people economically incentivized?
But I think as AI displaces not only jobs but also people's
identities, a lot of people willbe gravitating towards these
things. By the way, the first time I
(24:07):
heard your take on AII kind of chuckled a little bit, not
because I, I thought you were wrong, but because I was like,
I'm a lawyer that doesn't, you know, impact me because I, I use
AIA lot and all right, I, I, I then, then I thought, I use it a
lot. And they're already, they're
already coming for paralegals, right?
Well, so I mean, they've, that'sbeen, that's kind of been done,
(24:28):
but when I was looking at it, I was like, it's, it's dangerous
to use it. In fact, back when again, the
first time I heard you say this,which was months and months ago,
I was like, if I touch AII have to spend 10 times as much time
on the task, going back and making sure everything is real,
it's easier to just do it myself.
I with with Grok point, you know, 407, I don't know what
(24:49):
version we're on right now, 4000.
It's getting good. It's, it's getting to the point
where I'm going. Whoa, now I'll tell you that
it's still not, it's still not at the point where I'm going.
I'm, I'm not looking at a careerchange anytime soon, but I am at
the point where I'm going. This is, this is moving so much
(25:12):
faster than people can even truly understand.
And it's, and it's doing it withincreasing accuracy at this
point now using using Grok. And if you, and if you know how
to do it, you can pretty much get 6070% through a case by
yourself, you'd be an idiot to do it for all the emotional
aspects of it and for all the, the, the, the rest of the 30%,
(25:35):
which makes a difference betweenwhether you go to jail or not,
but, or when the case or not. But, but you can.
And so anyways, the, the, just anote on the fact that, that from
the minute from the time you setit to now, which has not been
that long. And you know, probably speaking,
the development is just insane And it's getting better every
day. It is getting better.
And so the, I guess the take away is that the I'm in
(26:00):
alignment with you on this one. And not only that, but I think
that the more the, the, the better it gets.
I think there's going to be a, abigger premium on the, the
things that AI can never do, which is the spirituality.
And I, and I think that, and I think that when, when you phrase
it that way, all of a sudden this sort of, I think
spirituality might become the, the gold or oil of the future.
(26:26):
And, and I use that word spirituality very loosely.
I don't mean religion necessarily, I mean humanity,
right? And I think we see generation
after generation after generation losing more and more
of that and craving more and more of it, you know,
perspectively. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I mean I think technology and spirituality are fundamentally
at odds and so the better, like the better AI gets, there has to
(26:50):
be a counter reaction somewhere.And you know these pure belief
assets is my bet. Yeah, the I want to get a little
philosophical, if that's OK. I've been wrestling this is, I
do this to myself, moron. I'll, I'll, someone will say
something and I'll sort of sit there and think about it, digest
it, and then I'll revisit it again and again and again.
(27:11):
And then so sometimes people say, oh, you know, blue, you're
so articulate. You've, you know, you, you're
able to articulate it so quickly.
The truth is, it's not I can't, I've just thought about it
incessantly. And, and so financial nihilism.
You've talked at length about this, I think even dating back
to token 2049 and even before you've positioned SPX and
(27:35):
others, APU, others, the whole the whole asset class as a
rejection of financial nihilism.But I can't help but see in
that. And I I, I don't know if you Rex
Takashi from Bobo was on the stream of last week or I can't
remember. I think it was exactly a week
ago actually. And, and he, he didn't kind of
like a very funny version of it,which is he put on his, he does
(27:58):
like the, the V tubing thing, you know, with the PNG and he
put on one that looks like you. And he was like, he was like,
everything sucks. You'll never have sex again.
The world is awful by my coin. And it was hilarious.
But more to the point, it, it's,it's also, there's truth to
that, right? I, I, I couldn't help but, but
think that within this entire thesis, there seems to be, it's
(28:22):
either an acknowledgement or an acceptance of financial
nihilism. And I had a wizard on here from
Y2K and we were talking about that a little bit about to, to,
to get to the point of everything is a meme.
I can't think of a more nihilistic view.
And, and I don't mean that pejoratively or with a negative
connotation. I just mean how do you reconcile
(28:44):
accepting the like most profoundlevel of of nihilism and
recognizing and then doing this hard 180° pivot and and
rejecting it? Can you color in the lines for
that a little bit so? I mean, I'm sure you've noticed
that like the quote UN quote meme coin space or the meme coin
industry, meme coin asset class,whatever you want to call it.
As I've already alluded to earlier on this call, like half
(29:09):
of it is hyper gambling. And I think that is a clear
symptom of pure financial nihilism.
And I think the other half of itis trying to build something
more long term. And I think that's a better
example of rejecting nihilism and trying to actually find
(29:29):
financial optimism, right? Because when we say believe in
something, what does that actually mean, right?
That means believing in each other.
That means believing that we aregoing to continue persisting
forever. That means believing that like
our mission will resonate with other people that might have not
seen it yet, etcetera, etcetera,etcetera, right?
(29:49):
And essentially, it's trying to be a bloomer instead of a doomer
and expressing that by holding something for a long time rather
than hyper gambling 10 coins perday, right?
I think the hyper gambling is pure financial nihilism, but I
think banding together with loyal people that you can see
(30:11):
are here and are not giving up, I think that's that's not
financial nihilism. I think that's the rejection of
it. Right.
But to reject it is to acknowledge it.
Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think it's
like the it's, it's a, there's adistinction there.
There's a fine line that you're walking when you say, for
example, I think on a, on a conceptual level, on an
ideological level, if I wanted to attack the thesis, I would
(30:33):
need to attack it, not on the thesis itself.
I think it's a losing fight, I think, I think if you, if you
are fighting the thesis at the level of the thesis, you lose
every time. But if you go into the actual,
the, the premises of the thesis,right?
I think that's where there's a discussion of is the world
really as bad as the video that you have pinned to your I, I I
(30:57):
don't think that was token 2049.This is the the the this is the
video that I originally memed the the 500 reasons, 150 reasons
this, this video, this presentation.
So. So here's the thing, right, the
world might be better in absolute terms, but I think the
but it's worse in relative terms.
And this is what you got to understand.
(31:18):
The human psyche has developed when it comes to like the
evolution of the brain and happiness humans have developed
relative to the village. You know what I mean?
And so people say that right nowa lower middle class person in
the Second World has better amenities than the king of the
(31:41):
land in the 8th century, right? Yeah, but it doesn't matter
because right, the like the, the, the lower middle class guy
is going to suffer more psychologically.
And the the reason is, I mean, this is going to be a little bit
controversial, but I think ultimately it has to do with
(32:02):
like biological and sexual status hierarchies and like
family formation. And the king, he might have been
like bathing in dirt, but he would have like he would have
like a large family. He would have kids more like
multiple kids with multiple 1, whatever, right?
And so from a mammalian point ofview, he would be successful,
right? But you know, a lower middle
(32:24):
class guy, he might have more food and access to like Uber and
stuff or whatever, Netflix entertainment technology than
the king like 1500 years ago, but he'll be less happy.
And so you have to realize that the human mind, it is a social
animal, right? And and so now when we delve
into that, you have to come backto the statistics that, you
(32:46):
know, wealth inequality highest in 50 years, income inequality
highest in 50 years, house priceto wage gap highest in 50 years,
right? And remember, relative to what,
relative to what I said, fertility at an all time low,
family formation at an all time low, there's a, this is arguably
(33:08):
the first generation ever financially speaking, right,
whose lives are harder than their parents and grandparents,
right? Correct.
Because in the 70s, you could buy a house for like $1800 or
something, right? And, and right now this is
crazy. Like, this is unthinkable.
(33:29):
And now when you couple this with the fact that there is like
skyrocketing mental health issues, loneliness,
irreligiosity, meaninglessness, and to wrap it all up with a
background of inflation, it causes all kinds of inequalities
in society, right? And it's these inequalities that
(33:51):
make people suffer. And I think essentially it boils
down to this, having a house andhaving like a wife and a child,
that used to be something that everybody got right, right.
But now I think with every passing day, these things are
becoming a luxury. And I think that, and I think
(34:14):
that 1520 years from now, it's going to be an ultra luxury,
right? And people, I think that's, I
think you, you can't deny that. And you know, yes, we, we, we
now all have Netflix and maybe there's like less war or, or
less starvation, but I think there's now in terms of the
(34:35):
median human life, there's like what's human connection?
And this is the source of the suffering.
I also think to some extent Murad, I think I actually think
because life has never been easier.
People have never been more miserable.
I think that when your concerns or that a leopard might eat you,
you know, and you have to fight off a rhinoceros or something, I
think that like a rainy day is not so bad.
(34:58):
You know, having to go get food is not that big of a deal.
And I think that our minds, yeah, yes, I think that's part
of it. And so by the way, I think the
very being a part of crypto, at least for me personally, has
been, it's been so challenging, but it's also been so rewarding
and fulfilling. And I see it every day and with
(35:19):
the people that we interact withand, and the things that are
happening in this space. So I think just being a part of
a community where there's this constant objective and this
goal, I think that's good for the soul.
I think, I think that by itself is medicine for the soul.
There's a few things I want to ask you.
I know, I know. We don't have too much time
left, so let me just just get straight to it #1 the APUS will
kill me, Maraud, if I don't ask you this.
(35:40):
Admiral Nimitz, are you familiar?
That's the name of a ship I believe.
It might be the name of the ship.
It's the name of an iguana. Are you familiar with the
iguana? And not not the specific 1.
So I'm familiar with iguana the the animal, yes.
OK, so, so in I don't know if you know this, this is everyone
(36:01):
needs to take out a pen to writethis down in, in APU lore, you
have an iguana. You had an iguana and it was
kidnapped by APU. I don't know if you know this.
I don't know if you're aware of this pet iguana you have in the
APU lore. And so and the it's actually
even more tragic because it sounds like you're not even
aware that the iguana passed away not too long ago.
(36:23):
And so that was people just wanted to know if you're,
you're, you're, if you were aware of the iguana and if and
if and what the iguana meant to you.
That was just a, again, part of APU lore that they would kill me
if I didn't ask you. And so I, I told them that I'd
ask you about Admiral Nimitz. And you can see in the, in the
comments, they, they loved, theyloved Admiral Nimitz.
(36:44):
I believe he was a real iguana. Marad.
I just, he's clearly wasn't youriguana, but he, but I think it
was a real iguana that they dedicated to you.
So I think is the story, at any rate, sounds like unfortunately
you were not aware, but now you do know.
So that's great. And I have to ask you about
NFTSII. Remember that there was a point
in time where you were NF TS were on your radar.
(37:08):
I feel like I've seen them less and less.
So that might not be true. That might just be me making
something up. How important do you think NF TS
still are to the meme coin culture and and what do you
think is is next for them in terms of how communities are
going to start using them? I think as the crypto space
(37:32):
becomes wealthier overall, I think rare NFTS are going to act
as a digital equivalent of like a luxury watch, right?
And because humans are going to spend an increasing percentage
of their time online or in virtual worlds.
So I think having this relatively scarce digital good
is going to signal a, your belonging to a certain tribe.
(37:56):
And two, the fact like kind of like a flex that you either have
a rare item or you were at A at the right place at the right
time early, right? So I think that's like the
that's like the functionality that it will play.
But I still, I still think that the coin is a better expression
of both like faith and speculation.
And so that's why it does better.
(38:17):
How many I believe? I believe you've answered this
before, so forgive me if you have.
I'm sorry I don't believe you'veactually answered this part of
the question. I I believe you do own APU NFTS
but I was wondering how many? I think you said once that your
favorite trait were the hats or the globes.
My favorite trait is the Roman Empire at the top of the head
(38:38):
with the French with the French fries and and all that.
Well, I have to. OK, so if you're going to say
that, I have to ask you, excluding meme coins, OK, non
crypto, what is your Roman Empire?
Good question, good question. You know, a lot of people, they
(39:08):
yearn for the past, but for me, I was always more interested in
the future. You know, I actually think that,
you know, the obsession that certain Chad's call them right,
certain certain men that they have with either returning to
(39:31):
the 1950s or returning to the 1700s or returning to the Roman
Empire. At the risk of sounding on
empathetic, I think this is an expression of them not being
sort of satisfied with the current existence, which of
(39:55):
course is obviously understandable.
But for me, I was more interested in the future than
the past. And so instead of being
interested in history, which I was interested in, I was much
more interested in science fiction and trying to like,
figure out what's going to happen in like 2100 or 2050.
Obviously reading a lot of science fiction books, you know,
(40:17):
Dyson spheres, Kardashev 2, you know, Matrushka brains and all
that. And so I'm, I'm more interested
in like change rather than the past.
And I always thought that obsessions with the past were
actually unproductive because itwill just never happen.
Like we will never go back to that.
We will never even go back to like 2005, right?
(40:39):
So I think it's like from, from a survival point of view, it's
much more productive to try to figure out what's going to
happen rather than to be obsessed with the nitty gritty
of what happened, right? Because if you can even remotely
or approximately correctly predict what's going to happen
in the future, you can position yourself and your family in a
(41:02):
way to benefit from that, right?And that's why I'm all about
like trends and like extending them further rather than.
Right, there are two charts I, Iwant you to look at that
actually coincide to, to a little bit of what you're saying
and what we've talked about here.
You mentioned it earlier and, and, and I think I've said it
before as well that, that there will, there is a limit.
I've, I've suggested that there.And I think maybe you have two,
(41:24):
that there's a finite number of meme coins that can be launched.
There's, there has, you know, there has to be, there's a
particular person who was talking about me and shared a
graph that they'd made that I thought was very interesting.
They go by the name of Midget whale, but they, they share this
graph. And I was just wondering if what
your, what your impression on itwas.
(41:45):
And I think what it, what this is illustrating is, you know,
and in, in the conversation is that there, there is sort of
deflationary aspect or perhaps momentum that, that you cannot
just create more and more meme coins.
You know, you can't increase thehash rate of culture, basically,
right? There's, there's, there's you're
(42:05):
mining an infinite amount, but you're, or you're not mining an
infinite amount of memes. How?
What are What are your impressions of that?
I actually think like the the absolute number of memes can go
to Infinity. Really.
What's more important though, isI think there's a scarce number
of meme coins that can reach critical mass.
That's that's like my whole thing because I don't care
(42:29):
about. So here's the thing right the
the amount of meme coins will probably go grow faster than
because it's going to become like cheaper to make them right
by the dozen. The amount of meme coins will
grow faster than the amount of capital that is flowing into
meme coins. I think that's a pretty safe
assumption to make. And if that's true, then the
(42:55):
logical result of this is it doesn't matter because that
means that the average meme coins market cap ceiling will go
down. And there's already data to
support this, right? So if there's going to be more
meme coins, that means that their average size will be
smaller. And ultimately me personally,
(43:17):
right? Me personally, I don't care
about which meme coin is going to go to like 1 or 2 million.
I care about which mean coin cango to like 300 billion, one
trillion, right? And so my whole thing has been
like just theoretically, doesn'tmatter how improbable it is, but
what can go to hundreds of billions?
And that's the only thing I careabout, right?
(43:38):
And for me, for something to go to hundreds of billions, it
essentially needs to have like unbelievable levels of like
spirituality, loyalty, diamond handedness, free cult labor and
everything that we've discussed,right?
So for me, I'm, I'm more, I'm more interested in like critical
mass than the absolute number ofmeme coins.
(43:59):
Like I'm already, I'm living under the assumption that
there's going to be like quadrillions of meme coins.
So I'm more interested in critical mass.
And when it comes to critical mass, there's probably only
going to be like maybe five of them, maybe three of them,
right? Right.
Like a tiny amount. So that's what I care about.
I on that note, it's funny you say that.
(44:20):
I I one last chart I want to show you.
What do you think of this one? This one was drawn by APU
himself. As you can see, it was drawn in
crayon. I'll give you a minute here.
What we have here is the distribution of capital among
coins right on our Y, We have time.
This was a period of expansion, innovation, launchpads, Icos,
(44:41):
the novelty of it all and trends.
And here we have sort of this contraction and consolidation
and rotation of of capital. So this isn't value of coins or
anything like that. I don't know how much I agree
that what we see with the star. I don't know how much I agree
that we are there. In fact, if you look at the
number of pump fun coins that have graduated or bonded,
(45:02):
whatever the words that they're using now, it, it looks kind of
similar to this chart. So I agree, I agree with this
chart. Like this is literally my
thesis, but I don't think the it's, I don't think it's going
to be Christmas tree shaped. I think it's going to be more
like a hill shape. Does that make sense?
(45:23):
OK. Yeah.
You don't think it's going to bea rapid mass consolidation, you
think it'll be gradual? I do think it's going to be a
bit more gradual, but I do agreewith the overall idea here and
the idea being the more coins there are, the stronger cults
will become because like how will a coin differentiate itself
(45:44):
from another? It's by its people.
And, you know, it takes time to build that kind of like that
kind of loyalty, that kind of passion.
I think it takes a year at least.
And if there's going to be more and more coins launched per day,
that means there's actually going to be fewer and fewer
cults ultimately. And that's why you should bet on
(46:05):
those. You should.
You should hold things that other people are holding.
Does that make sense? And that will hold I I wanna so
it, it, it put it there's some again.
I I've obsessed about this a little bit.
I'm sure you can relate The another way that I've thought
about this and and I wanna get your take on this as well, is
that if the amount of meme coinsbeing produced is analogous to
(46:28):
the universe expanding matter being just dispersed all
throughout the universe, then I posit that the mimetic value of
the coins is something of a gravity.
And that essentially, and that'swhat we're that's what that's
what this really is, right? And that essentially gravity or
the, the mimetic power, the mimetic weight in the
(46:49):
communities themselves, right? The communities or the gravity
will be the force just like it. Gravity is the is mass putting
itself back together. It's the universe putting itself
back together, gravity and the community and the, and the
mimetic power is going to be this asset class putting itself
back together. And that's why I think that
you're going to see people eventually go, oh, fartcoin 420
(47:12):
blaze it #1000 didn't work. Let's look at where the mass
really is. And, and, and that's, that's
sort of how that's, that's positioned.
What do you think of that? Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree.
And also I think the average person like the way crypto works
is that once every four years towards the like the last four
(47:34):
or five months of the four year cycle, there's like a wave of
retail comps, right? And I think most people, they
don't want to hyper gamble all day long.
I think most people, the averageperson, right, at least as far
as retail is concerned. And definitely, if institutions
are concerned, they actually want to buy and hold rather than
(47:55):
like gamble, right? And the problem is that half a
year ago, the average holding time for a coin used to be like
a few minutes. And right now we're down to 39.
Well, we're down to 39 seconds. And actually a few weeks ago was
45 seconds and now it's already 39.
And I think it's going to keep going down because AI is going
(48:16):
to come for meme coin trading also.
Yeah, right. And like AI, high frequency
trading funds market makers, like prop algo traders, they
will, they will embed themselvesdeeper and deeper into like the
launchpad game or whatever. Coming back to this thing, which
is like human belief is the onlything that you can't quite
(48:39):
easily disrupt. And so in order to make money in
meme coins, ask yourself which things will people believe in
for like 3-4, five years rather than buy, rather than just like
trade. And and and you know, one of the
last things I'll say before. I ask you our wrap up questions
is that it's funny, every time they release that number, it's
(49:00):
going to get shorter because theculture is at front running.
I'm gonna OK if it if the if thenow it's the average is 49.
I'm out at 48 right 'cause statistically I'll make more
money that way. But how do you front run?
It's race to the bottom. It's race, but how do?
You front run forever. You don't.
I think it will plateau around. One or two seconds.
No, no, no. Well, what I mean is no, that's
(49:21):
what I mean. What I.
Mean is, when I look at pump Funshooter #1 million, right?
I'm gonna go now. It's 35 seconds, 39 seconds, so
I'll go 38, right? But when I look at a coin like
APU or SPX, and I know that these people will hold forever,
how can I front run that? I can't front run forever.
So, so it you know, it's it's it's I'm now that I'm I'm you're
(49:42):
saying it this way and I'm thinking about it.
These other coins in the tradingspace, they are, like you said,
a race to the bottom. It's a race to to, to seconds
and and there's a negative feedback loop.
It the shorter it gets, the shorter it will get.
It has to it will you know what will happen?
It will follow the same. Rough structure as the online
(50:03):
poker boom of 2006, where at first there was like a lot of
retail players and then they realized that they were like the
fish. And ultimately by like 2012, it
was just the sharks left. Yeah.
Playing and the Sharks, yeah. Exactly.
And the sharks are going to be the AIS.
And the and the hardcore Quan funds and ultimately you'll have
(50:26):
to go find like a better game, right.
By the way, the first question that my.
That one my friend asked when hewas he was looking to move in
size into some of these. He goes, he says to me, how do I
know they won't rug me? And I said, because they would
have done it already, right? And it would the culture, the
(50:46):
culture, it is not like that. It's different.
And so, but you can, you can also if you you can.
Trust your gut, but you can alsokind of see on chain what
they've done so far, right? And and take it from there.
Right. Yeah.
And and, and by the way, you know, it's funny the, you know,
I, I, I. I'll, I'll go to people and I'll
say, hey, what should I ask Murad?
(51:08):
What should I ask? I, I get people's input.
I, I, I, I think about things. Do you know what the most common
answer I get the most common question people want me to ask
you, which is funny because you've, you've answered it 1000
times. How are you going to sell?
And, and I've, I've told them, not only have I told them that,
that this answer is out there, I've also told them I said, is
it, is it really, is it really so surprising to think that
(51:32):
maybe the man won't sell? I mean, is it at a certain
point, after there's a certain amount of money, some things
matter more than money, especially when you're when
you're at a certain point. And is is it, is it, is it?
I don't know why some people have a hard time believing that
the legacy, the the ideological contribution of what this work,
your work, these communities work, what this means isn't more
(51:56):
valuable than X dollars. And it's surprising to me that a
lot of people don't see that. And so I just, I, I guess some,
you know, you know, I'm not, I'mnot going to ask you the
question again, 'cause I, I, again, it's been answered so
many times. But the, the question I will ask
you is just this, how important to you on a personal level, on a
spiritual level, is this work that you're doing as it pertains
(52:18):
to your contribution not just tothis space, but to the world?
I mean, of course it's important, otherwise I wouldn't
be doing. This for like 18 hours a day
right? You know when I see when I'm in
a space. And I see one anonymous
listener. I just assume it's you.
I just assume that's that's the point that we've got.
Sometimes. Sometimes that's the case, yeah.
As I know very well, Rod, thank you SO.
(52:40):
So much if do you have any any final thoughts or closing
thoughts for for our audience oror for anyone else that's that's
listening, believe in something and persist forever.
Absolutely right. Thank you so, so much.
We really. Appreciate it.
Thank you. All right.
And guys, we are going to take a.
Quick break here before we come back with sad succulent ham and
(53:01):
we will see you guys very, very soon.
It's a very special stream, you're not going to want to miss
it, so stay tuned. Thank you guys so much and I'll
see you guys next time or in a few minutes.
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