February 21, 2025 • 51 mins
What if the biggest opportunity to solve climate change isn't where you think it is? While wealthy nations debate their climate goals, organizations like GEAPP are helping developing countries take bold steps to secure a cleaner, more independent energy future.
Discover how the Global Energy Alliance for People and Planet (GEAPP) is tackling some of the world's most pressing energy challenges with CEO Woochong Um & Isabel Beltrán.
The energy conversation is polarizing. But the reality is multidimensional. Get the full story with host Stewart Muir.
Reach out to us with thoughts, questions, or ideas at info@powerstruggle.ca
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Isabel Beltrán (00:00):
We did that.
This happened when I was little.
I remember having electricitycuts when I was like maybe in
primary school, and you forget.
You know what it means to havelike to not have electricity for
six hours every day, and nowwe're living that again and
realizing that it's fragile.
Stewart Muir (00:27):
Welcome to Power Struggle.
I'm Stuart Muir.
Woochong Um is the ChiefExecutive Officer of the Global
Energy Alliance for People andPlanet, .
It's a multi-sector coalitionbased in New York City.
was established in 2021 toaddress one of the most pressing
(00:49):
challenges of our eraeradicating energy poverty and
combating the climate crisis.
Before joining GEOP in 2024, wuChong had a distinguished
career, including at the AsianDevelopment Bank, where he
served as managing directorgeneral.
In that capacity, he led globalpartnerships and funding
(01:09):
mechanisms aimed at transformingeconomies and communities.
I really can't think of abetter person than Wu Chong
right now to help our journey ofunderstanding here at Power
Struggle, because we'researching for all the insights
we can get on the future ofglobal energy.
(01:30):
Wu-chang Ng, welcome to PowerStruggle.
Woochong Um (01:33):
Thank you very much .
Very, very happy to be here,
Stewart Muir (01:35):
wu-chang.
Let's start at the top.
For those who might not knowwhat is GEAPP?
Woochong Um (01:40):
So GEAPP, as you mentioned, was established three
years ago, almost exactly threeyears ago, by three partners
who got together so that'sRockefeller, bezos and IKEA to
help eradicate energy povertyand, at the same time, resolve
the climate problem.
We knew that there is anexistential challenge that
(02:01):
humanity faces, challenge thatthe humanity faces.
Unless we move quickly and moreboldly, our planet will not
survive in the long run.
So that basically means we haveto do everything we can to try
to reduce the greenhouse gasemission that is, you know,
human-made to the extent of fourgigatons of CO2 emission
(02:24):
reduction.
And they also need to provideaccess to clean energy to 1.5
billion people, because, nomatter what you do in a
developed world, the developingcountries will continue to
develop and they need to get onthe clean path.
Otherwise, if they get into thefossil fuels and go for
(02:45):
short-term returns, they'regoing to be locked in to
investments that will continueto be emitting greenhouse gas
and also they will be lockedinto their obligation to import
expensive fuel from somewhereelse, so they will be much more
dependent on the fluctuatingfuel prices and so forth.
(03:05):
And then also providing thejust transition for people who
are affected by the greeneconomy.
So, whether people who are inthe fossil fuel, moving to the
clean industry, and the peoplewho can benefit from renewable
energy, whether you're a farmeror a student, men and women who
(03:27):
can benefit and improve theirlivelihood using green electrons
.
So this vision, a mega vision,was launched in Glasgow and the
idea is to bring, galvanize allthe key players around the world
to focus on this agendaglobally, focusing on the lower
(03:47):
middle-income countries and thelower-income countries so that
they can get in the right path.
Stewart Muir (03:52):
This is incredibly ambitious, but it's not your
first rodeo in solving these bigglobal challenges.
Woo-chung, what got you hookedin this space?
Woochong Um (04:04):
Well, that started about 20 years ago.
I mean, I was working in theAsian Development Bank.
I was in charge ofinfrastructure development for
their organization to buildinfrastructure that will help
eradicate poverty for thesepeople in Asia.
And in 2005, we had a visionthat we need to get countries to
(04:27):
get on the clean path, as Imentioned, so that it has a
positive impact on theenvironment but also for the
economy as well, because wedon't want countries to be
continuing to be dependent onfossil fuel import.
So we launched this thingcalled the Clean Energy Program,
where we tried to double andquadruple our investments into
(04:50):
clean energy space.
So that worked out quite wellfrom 2005 to 2010.
We were able to quadruple.
And then we started to tackleother sectors, in transport
sector, for example, becauseelectric, the efficient mobility
, is a key to economicdevelopment and if you keep just
building roads where you putfossil fuel burning cars again,
(05:12):
you're going to have a hugeimpact in global greenhouse gas
emission.
At the same time, the countrieswill be bogged down with
traffic, as you know.
You know when there's traffic,it does have a huge impact on
the economy.
So that's sort of the beginningof the transformation of myself
actually to get into more greeninvestments and fast forward to
(05:36):
2024,.
When I was exposed to the G-Appand the vision that the G-App
has, I felt that I could takeeverything I learned over the
last in my career, last 30 plusyears, and apply it at the
global scale.
Stewart Muir (05:52):
Well, it's going to need your skills.
Even the wealthiest countriesin the world take Germany, the
United States, canada arestruggling to reduce the
emissions.
They're not meeting theirtargets.
How is it going to be possiblefor the developing world, for
the lower and middle incomenations, to do it if these
wealthy countries haven't shownthat much progress?
Woochong Um (06:14):
Well, I think you're underestimating the power
of the wealthier countries,because you do have technology
and finances and the challengethat we face is that there's a
lot of money out there that'sready for investment, but only a
fraction of the investments outthere actually eventually flow
to the developing countries.
And when you talk about thecommitments made by any country
(06:36):
global greenhouse gas emissionreduction, decarbonization is a
global issue.
And if you're in Canada, you'remuch more efficient than
developing country.
So it's actually much morecostly to do additional
decarbonization in the developedcountry than you can do in
developing country.
So what we are trying to do iscapture the knowledge, the
(07:00):
technology and the finance thatare domiciled in the developed
country to be channeled todeveloping countries, countries
where development will happen ina big way and the cost of
decarbonizing is much cheaper indeveloping country than in the
developed country.
So the opportunity is there.
So whether you reduce 100gigatons of greenhouse gas in
(07:23):
developing country versus Canada, the impact is the same.
It's the global impact.
So we are basically relying ondeveloped countries to do what
you need to do in your owncountry, but we are trying to
facilitate the developed countryto help the developing country
so that we can all helpourselves in a global way.
Stewart Muir (07:44):
I think you're saying something really
important there.
It sounds like the technologiesthat are being incubated,
developed, implemented indeveloped countries can be
brought to developing countriesat the time when they are first
embarking on a moreenergy-intensive Exactly, yeah
Right, that's an importantthought.
Intensity Exactly, yeah Right,that's an important thought.
(08:07):
Recently, you were at COP29 inAzerbaijan and at the climate
summit in late 2024, wascredited for being front and
center in the historic $300billion climate funding deal and
you were in the room where ithappened.
Woochong Um (08:23):
We are almost 10 years since Paris in 2015.
And there's a generalimpression that we need to ramp
up our efforts so that 300billion number may be not as big
as what some people hadexpected, but it's a significant
signal that the stakeholdershave sent that we mean business
(08:45):
and towards the COP30 next yearin Belém, brazil.
So the fact that there is adeal is a very, very important
step.
This also sends a signal thateveryone needs to focus more to
turn that $300 billion intotrillions of dollars by
mobilizing private capital,because that's where the real
money is.
So the G-App you know we have50 plus partners around the
(09:09):
world.
We're working together andthose partnership encompasses
the public sector and theprivate sector, and we're trying
to come up with a mechanism andapproaches that will crowd in
private capital.
So that means that we have totackle in several different
areas.
One is, as I mentioned, we areworking in a developing country,
so the developing countrycapacity and their capability
(09:33):
needs to be enhanced by way ofintroducing reforms, by
providing capacity building,technical assistance, so that
the regulatory framework is muchmore efficient for private
capital to flow in.
But also, more importantly, weneed to help these countries to
have more bankable projectswhich are attractive to
(09:54):
investors in private space.
And when you try to attractprivate capital, they do need to
make money somehow right.
So you cannot expect privatesector to put their capital
where there's money losingbusiness.
So supporting these countries inproject development is another
space that we can get involvedin, and then we participate in
(10:16):
structuring deals where privatecapital is brought in, whether
we use, you know, guaranteefirst, loss guarantee kind of
thing, or equity investment oreven debt investment.
So by us getting involved, wecrowd in the public sector and
when we have these kind ofplayers co-investing, the
(10:36):
private sector investors feelmuch more comfortable coming in
on top of that.
So there are real risks thatthe private sector investors
will have to deal with and thatcan be dealt with by providing
guarantees, for example.
But there's also perceived risk, which is actually even bigger,
because when you're working ina frontier countries, it's the
(10:59):
first time investing in a givencountry, in Africa, let's say
people will feel nervous untilthey see somebody doing it right
.
So the fact that we areshoulder to shoulder investing
into these kind of projects willgive comfort to the private
capital investors and we canhopefully turn that $300 billion
(11:19):
into trillions of dollars inthe years to come.
Stewart Muir (11:23):
Was there a sense of disappointment that, although
$300 billion is a big number,the starting number that was
sought by those who wanted thisprogram to succeed was $1.3
trillion?
Woochong Um (11:36):
You have to start somewhere and, like I said, I
think it sent the signal that itwill happen, because I think
there are also pessimists whothought that we'll never have a
deal anyway.
Right, so it would be nice toget into trillions, but getting
it's a 300 billion is a large, alot of money that we can have
it go much farther but, like Isaid, getting into focusing on
(11:59):
crowding and more privatecapital.
Stewart Muir (12:01):
I'm trying to get a mental picture of what you'll
be going forth to actually dowith this $300 billion.
There's one program, bess, orBattery Energy Storage Systems.
That is a hot topic in yourspace, wuchong.
I know that you're unlockingsome projects in Malawi enough
to power 1.5 million electriccars in regions of Africa at one
(12:26):
time through one of theinvestments.
Can you tell us a little moreabout what that looks like?
What kind of equipment?
How is it implemented?
How is that power stored andthen utilized?
Woochong Um (12:36):
So it's battery energy storage systems best is a
real game changer.
Because when I first gotinvolved with the renewable
energy space 20 years ago, thebattery storage wasn't such a
big thing and the biggestchallenge that the renewable
energy space faced was that itcannot replace the base load.
So when somebody has noelectricity, they cannot just
(12:59):
rely on renewable energy likesolar and wind, unless you're
talking about hydro.
In Canada, there's're talkingabout hydro.
You know, in Canada there's alot of hydro, because when
there's no sun, there's noelectricity, when there's no
wind, there's no electricity.
So by introducing the besttechnology, that changes the
dynamics and over the years overthe last 20 years the cost of
actual solar panels have comedown significantly, but then the
(13:22):
issue still had reliability ofthe electricity availability.
So by integrating batterystorage, it looks like a fossil
fuel power plant because it'sconsistent and this can actually
replace the energy securityagenda of any given country.
So we get involved through theBESS consortium that we launched
(13:46):
last year about a year inSeptember 2023, where several
countries signed on to that tomajor activities in integrating
BESS into renewable energysolutions in the distributed
renewable energy space.
And that also comes withtechnology bid, but also getting
the internal regulatoryapprovals set up as well right
(14:09):
in the given country.
So this is where we actuallyprovide quite a bit of
handholding to the country sothat we can help design, use the
best practice in othercountries to implement and
promulgate some of the internalregulatory systems so that the
technologies can flow into thesecountries well.
So I'm quite optimistic thatthis will have a huge impact in
(14:31):
scaling up investments, becausewhen investments on renewable
energy can solve the energysecurity for a given country,
then people in the countrieswill take it very seriously and
at the end, like I said, bydoing installing renewable
energy best energy storage willhelp countries become
(14:51):
independent from fossil fuelimport, which means if there's a
conflict somewhere in the world, you know oil price goes up,
fuel price goes up.
They don't have to worry toomuch about the cost of their
energy because sunlight willalways be there.
Stewart Muir (15:07):
There's a lot of places in the world where they
talk about wanting to go 100%renewable and often, when you
look closer, it's quitechallenging and they're still
using fossil fuels for aviation,for manufacturing and some
things it's a little harder toget out of.
Do you think there's anyonewho's credibly saying that there
(15:32):
is truly 100%?
All the energy in our lives,for the way that you know some
country, somewhere might beliving, could become 100%
renewable, not just the portionfrom electricity, you know, I
think that if you just thinkabout it, it seems quite
daunting, but when you look atspecific examples, it is
possible to get there.
Woochong Um (15:52):
Maybe it will take time, but I know in my previous
organization they're makinginvestments in the aviation
industry for biofuel.
Now I personally haven'texperienced flying in another
plane that's flown by fuel yet.
But human being, we're amazingin terms of innovation
technology.
So give us enough time, we'llcome up with an answer, and I'm
(16:17):
an iPhone user.
This really changed the worldin 2007.
And you look at before 2007versus now.
The world we live in issomething that we never imagined
.
It's a simple thing like Uber.
Uber Eats getting things at thetip of your finger was
something that we never imaginedpossible.
(16:37):
So you got to create asituation where, in the energy
sector, we have that 2007 momentwith respect to mobile phone.
Stewart Muir (16:47):
Yeah, well, you think in 2007, all of these
things we could not havepredicted.
No one was predicting.
Here they are now.
So the same number of years infuture, 17 years down the road.
Who knows what's going to behere?
Woochong Um (17:01):
Exactly.
So.
That's the part that excites methe most coming out into this
world of J-Ab, where you know weare not just about J-Ab but we
are an alliance, as the namesays.
So we're trying to work andgalvanize all the knowledge, all
the technology, all the moneythat our partners have and
(17:22):
channel it into the places whereit will make the biggest impact
.
And we celebrate together.
Stewart Muir (17:26):
Who inspires you in this?
Who you work with?
Woochong Um (17:28):
Personally, the people that excite me the most
are the people with knowledge,the knowledge partners, and, for
example, rmi Rocky MountainInstitute.
I've worked with them sinceabout 15, 20 years ago actually,
and they're one of the alliancepartners that we work with, and
they have such a deep bench interms of their knowledge on the
(17:49):
battery storage.
So I value the partnership ofthose entities with the
knowledge that they have as themost exciting part, but of
course, we do need financiers atthe end of the day, right?
So we want to work witheveryone.
Stewart Muir (18:04):
Mm-hmm.
You know, at Power Struggle,since we launched, we've been
talking a lot and often aboutthe idea of an energy trilemma
the three-pronged challenge ofbalancing energy security energy
is there when you need it ofmaking energy affordable and of
achieving public acceptabilityin terms of sustainability.
(18:28):
As we see the developing worldnavigating through the same
energy trilemma as everybodyelse, how do you think these
decisions will be brokered?
Is there one of those thingsaffordability, reliability,
sustainability that's going tobe more emphasized or less?
How do you think that balancewill be achieved?
Woochong Um (18:50):
you know that trilemma um is a very important
topic and we see that in everyaspect of development.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar with this thing called
the JETP Just Energy TransitionPlatform.
It started in South Africa andthen now they're working in
Indonesia and also moving intoVietnam.
(19:12):
So it's about transitioningfrom energy the fossil energy to
green energy in the just way,and so there's been a lot of
lessons learned from there.
So you talk about providingtechnological solutions so that
there's a reliable electricityor energy, so that that's
securities taken and also, as wescale up production, it does
(19:36):
reduce the cost of electricityat the end of the day.
But then the most important partfrom the lessons learned is
that social acceptance part, andthat's the just part.
It's a just energy transition,and I know the colleagues
actually G7 is driving this andthe colleagues who are trying to
come up with the Just P2, 2.0is to move up the just part to
(19:59):
the front.
Because you know, for thistransition of energy transition
to happen, everyone has to be onboard, including the
politicians, the technology, thepeople, and unless the key
decision makers can ensure thatthe people affected by the whole
transition are taken care ofand the ones left behind, it
(20:21):
will not survive politically inthe country, so it will not
sustain.
So in the future, when weimplement the uh, these issues,
we have to make sure that thatwe do proper analysis in terms
of social impact and then bringeveryone on board and then make
sure that no one's left behindin that transition process.
Stewart Muir (20:43):
It's a very interesting moment we're in, the
geopolitical insecurity, thechange, political change in
countries that in some cases aresaying this is a moment we're
going to pivot, you might say,back to having higher
reliability and affordabilityover sustainability, so those
(21:08):
values of the energy trilemmabecome enhanced.
Do you feel there's a role toset an example for the
developing countries that are inyour group, in your circle,
that you are working with, whereyou want to see a certain kind
of leadership?
Woochong Um (21:23):
No.
So this is a very importantquestion.
You know it's very, veryimportant.
As part of our alliance work,the advocacy and communication
is one of the things that we do,and right now it's in 2025, it
will be even more important thatwe wrap up that side of the
things that we do.
And right now, in 2025, it willbe even more important that we
wrap up that side of the work,because we have to make sure
(21:44):
that people understand thatgreen transition is good for
business and good for economy.
Of course, it's good fordecarbonization and global
warming, but at the end of theday, people will benefit from
cleaner, cheaper electricitythat's more stable.
So we have to make sure that wecommunicate this so that people
don't get distracted withwhatever other options that may
(22:06):
come which might be a bit moreshort-term cited than what we're
trying to preach.
Stewart Muir (22:12):
Wu Chong, after you, we're going to bridge into
a discussion in today's PowerStruggle with your colleague,
Isabel Beltran, and before we dothat, I'd like you, wuchong, to
tell us a little bit aboutIsabel.
Woochong Um (22:26):
Well, isabel is the vice president for our Latin
America and Caribbean businessand last month I spent some time
with her in Belém, brazil,where the cop 30 will be
organized, and she's an amazingperson who knows how to get
things done on the ground andshe has a the power of influence
(22:47):
, of getting people to do theright thing, and the kind of
support that she's getting fromthe, from the latin american
countries I've personallywitnessed, and she was the key
person who drove our universalaccess coalition work together
with the Brazilian government,as we are supporting the
(23:08):
Brazilian government in theirenergies for the Amazon
initiative, which she will tellyou all about, and I expect she
will be quite noticeable in thenext one year leading up to
COP30.
Stewart Muir (23:22):
Well, that's a great introduction and I think
it's a chance, on today'sepisode, to bridge from the
high-level leadership thestrategy that you've explained
to us, wu Chong, and introduceIsabel Beltran.
Isabel Beltrán (23:34):
Yeah, hi, good afternoon.
Stewart Muir (23:35):
Isabel is vice president at and leads the work
in Latin America, as well asthe Caribbean.
She has more than 15 years ofexperience in economic
development, having worked atthe World Bank and the
Inter-American Development Bank,focusing on sub-Saharan Africa
as well as Latin America.
She has a master's in economicsfrom the Catholic University in
(23:56):
Ecuador and a master's inpublic administration from
Syracuse University.
Isabel welcome.
Isabel Beltrán (24:03):
Thank you, happy to be here, stuart.
Stewart Muir (24:05):
You've accomplished so much in your
career.
If you weren't solving energypoverty, what do you think you'd
be doing?
Isabel Beltrán (24:13):
I actually think I'll be working on poverty
issues, economic development,and that's where my career
started, studying economics as away to help developing
countries like mine I'mEcuadorian to really lift the
population out of poverty.
And then somehow, through mycareer, I learned, or I found,
that one of the most effectivepaths to do that is through
(24:36):
energy and through the provisionof reliable energy.
And so here I am.
Stewart Muir (24:41):
Energy sounds very specific, but you've chosen it
as a thing to further your work.
Is that because there'ssomething different about energy
than maybe some other sectors?
Isabel Beltrán (24:51):
I think all sectors are important.
However, through my work at theRockefeller Foundation and 100
Resilient Cities and thinkingabout resilience, energy is one
of those sectors that reallytouches a lot of and can
influence a lot of many others,and so we've done studies with a
multi-poverty development indexpeople that indicate that one
(25:14):
of the sectors that influencesmore than the other ones is
energy, and so if you can reallyfocus on providing energy and
make sure that the communitiesand the people are using that
energy productively, that's oneof the best indicators of
development.
So it's a matter of not onlygood for the environment, but
also a really effective povertyreduction mechanism.
Stewart Muir (25:38):
Now, when you take these high-level agreements,
like we saw at COP29, $300billion committed to deal with
these issues what does it meanon the ground for you,
particularly in Latin Americaand the Caribbean?
Isabel Beltrán (25:50):
I think for me, latin America is a particular
region in terms of a fairlyclean region, fairly clean
energy matrix and highelectrification rates.
So, like almost 97% dependingon who you ask of the region is
electrified already.
However, the issues aredifferent, right, so you have a
(26:12):
region that is highly dependenton hydropower and that is really
impacted by climate change.
You have a lot of drought rightnow that is affecting actually
electricity provision in Peru,in Ecuador, risking electricity
provision in Brazil, so you'restarting to see that the effects
of climate change are reallyaffecting energy systems.
(26:35):
And in the Caribbean, you haveseen the islands suffer more
frequent, stronger hurricanesyear after year, and these
hurricanes destroy theirelectricity systems, which was
the case in Puerto Rico manyyears ago and these islands
depend also on most of themdepend on fossil fuel that they
import from somewhere else, sothey are not only disconnected
(26:58):
from electricity because thehurricanes destroy the systems,
but also the provision of dieselbecomes not very reliable, and
so these are the islands thatare really at the front of the
consequences of climate change,and so I do think that they need
to work on their energyresilience, and this is where
you see a lot of the efforts inthe Caribbean going so like how
(27:21):
do we incorporate batteries,large scale batteries, in our
system so that we have somebackup against hurricanes and
storms?
How do we become less dependenton diesel?
How do we become sort of moreself-sufficient?
Stewart Muir (27:36):
You take a country like Cuba.
They've gone through someterrible problems right now
Blackouts.
They rely on natural gas andoil for creating electricity,
but they're chronically short offuel.
They have a lot of potential,natural abundance of resources
and in the past they've had avery wealthy existence.
(27:58):
What is the perception theyhave of going through changes in
the energy system that arebeing suggested for them?
Isabel Beltrán (28:07):
I mean Cuba is an interesting example and
something that I'm not 100%familiar with, given the
political complications ofworking in Cuba.
But I suppose it's the same thatin the other islands of the
Caribbean that these new supposeit's the same that in the other
islands of the Caribbean thatthis new technology so including
renewables in your matrix isfavorable but also comes with a
different way of managing thegrid.
(28:27):
So our countries and ourutilities are used to managing
cables that are connected in anetwork, in a grid.
That's what the regulators knowhow to do, that's what the
utilities know how to manage.
Now, if you like, decentralizethe provision of energy and you
have some solar energy here,some wind energy there that
integration becomes a little bitmore complex, and that the
(28:49):
issue that the renewable energyis usually variable.
So when you have sun you havesolar energy, but it's not the
same provision as when you areburning diesel.
And so dealing with thosetechnical issues is something
that the islands need supportfrom the national community and
it's something that enables themto sort of shift their matrix
(29:11):
from burning diesel or fuelsthat they import to actually be
able to take advantage of thevast wind and solar resources
that they have.
So the resources are there, butthe way to incorporate them is
something that needs technicalassistance, that it's costly and
needs the support from theinternational community in terms
of helping not only finance butalso know how to manage.
Stewart Muir (29:36):
In terms of adding new energy sources to lives.
That seems like something thateveryone's open to these days,
but at the same time, you couldsee a Colombia saying we're
going to reduce our reliance onfossil fuels, but then the next
day, oh, argentina is going toincrease its offshore drilling
(29:57):
for oil and gas, and you haveVenezuela, which will do, you
know, something they choose todo.
When you're traveling around toall these different countries
that have different issues,different priorities, different
politics, what themes are youseeing in how this transition is
emerging in terms of what thepublic wants, what political
(30:19):
leaders are doing?
Isabel Beltrán (30:20):
I think there's two main things At the high
level is the need to demonstrateand work with these countries
in what is their sort of newgreen industrialization strategy
.
So what are the countries goingto do in lieu of exporting oil
or natural gas, like there hasto be an alternative.
This is, you know, part oftheir economic development.
(30:43):
So what is the opportunity ofthe Latin American region in
this new sort of energy world?
On producing some of thematerials that are needed for
the energy transition.
A lot of the minerals for theenergy transition, like copper
and lithium, are in LatinAmerica.
(31:04):
So how does the region takeadvantage of this and pushes an
industrialization agenda thatcan provide not only lithium but
maybe lithium batteries orproduction of panels?
What is the alternative forthese countries?
You can come in with an agendaof saying you need to
decarbonize and you need to stopselling oil, but there needs to
(31:26):
be an alternative and there arealternatives and it's just a
matter of partnering with thecountries with complete packages
of technical assistance andfinancial support to push these
industrialization agendas.
And, on the other hand,especially in Latin America, you
see a region that, talking withmany of the ministers, they
struggle to fully embrace thetransition when they still are
(31:48):
leaving people behind.
So many of them.
You will hear them say likethere's no transition without
taking everyone right.
We need to reach.
This is a region that is veryclose to reaching 100%
electrification, but those lastI don't know 16, 17, 18 million
depends on what statistic youuse are the people that remain
(32:09):
unconnected, plus 60%, plusmillion of people that have
connection, but it's not reallygood.
It's like maybe a couple ofhours a day.
Those are the most complexbecause they are the farthest,
they are the most expensive,they are the poorest, they're
usually isolated, indigenousAfro-descentant communities.
(32:30):
The technologies what is thefinancing mechanisms?
What are the arrangements thatare needed to reach the last
mile and to reach 100 percent?
I think a lot of the ministershave said we can't, you know,
talk about transition when westill have, like you know, three
, four million people that donot have any access, and so
that's also something that we,you know, have been supporting
(32:50):
and the push behind the creationof the Universal Access
Coalition.
It's like we can, lac could bethe region that reaches 100% and
, in doing so, extract a lot ofthe learnings that other regions
are going to need further on.
Stewart Muir (33:06):
I'd like to dig into the Universal Access
Coalition in a moment, because Ijust want to stay with this
topic.
You raised something criticalminerals.
I think of a country like Chilewhich has got an incredible
amount of mineral wealth,especially copper, without which
there is no energy transition,there's no electrification.
So putting countries like thisin the driver's seat, or seeing
(33:31):
them take that place throughtheir own actions, seems like a
very timely and smart thing tobe doing.
Isabel Beltrán (33:38):
Yes, absolutely.
I think supporting these neweconomies and the development of
these new industries is key atthis moment, and it's also key
for the region, right?
And then, you know, providingsome alternative supplies from
other continents.
Stewart Muir (33:53):
So can you give me some insights into the
Universal Access Coalition?
Where did this idea come from,what problems does it solve that
are hard problems to solve byother means, and how is it going
?
Isabel Beltrán (34:05):
Yes.
So this was a little bit of acrazy ambitious idea that we had
talking to many of the otherpartners working on access right
the World Bank, theInter-American Development Bank,
ia, irena.
We talked to everyone tounderstand what was the problem
and what was needed and whatwere the limitations, to realize
that there's a lot of fundinggoing to the sector not nearly
(34:28):
enough but there's some fundinggoing to universal access in
Latin America, but the fundingis very uncoordinated, that
there's small pilots, that thelessons have not been shared,
that you need scale, that it'sreally expensive and also the
understanding that whateverapproach got a country to 95% or
96% electrification, thatapproach is not going to be the
(34:51):
one that takes you to 100%.
That last percentage needs adifferent way of working.
And so all of theseorganizations have come together
, sort of with a common visionof working together in
coordination, sharing lessons,coordinating our interventions.
We can attract more funding tothe sector, we can bring a
(35:14):
little bit of scale to the workand we can really accelerate
reaching 100%, like none ofthese organizations can do it
individually.
And so we've come together, asat least you know, as an
informal group of organizationsworking and leaders working in
the sector to say what are thethings that we could do together
or in soft groups that willreally push the agenda forward,
(35:38):
and how can we work on thosethings between now and 2030 to
make it a reality that we willhave universal access in the
region.
Stewart Muir (35:48):
Is there one thing that seems to be the most
effective single thing thatyou've stumbled upon?
Isabel Beltrán (35:53):
No, there's not like a one solution for all
you've stumbled upon.
No, there's not like a onesolution for all.
But among the things that wehave discussed is the need to
aggregate funding, so the needto provide a platform through
which donors can aggregatefunding in a bigger scale,
instead of small pilots here andthere.
(36:14):
So, like, could we create, like, a multi-donor trust fund
dedicated to energy issues?
We also talked about how allthis energy interventions need
to come really closelycoordinated with productive use
and economic developmentinterventions.
I always keep this in my mind,but you know, with the
(36:34):
electricity itself, you don't doanything with the cable.
It's what you do with thatenergy that provides development
.
So, like, how can we work withthe communities in terms of,
like, making their agriculturalpractices more sustainable or
more productive, or take them toa little bit of a bigger scale?
That's what actually producesdevelopment.
And the other thing is, we'vetalked about the need to really
(36:59):
update the regulation.
And what is the regulatoryframework that enables different
types of business models ortechnologies that address this
last mile?
Because all these regulationsand all these utilities were
created and designed for onegrid right Central generation
and so this last mile needs alittle bit of a different
(37:20):
approach and that takes somework, but countries can learn
from each other.
Stewart Muir (37:24):
Isabel, you come from Ecuador, so I'm thinking
you must know the issues andchallenges of Ecuador rather
well.
How is it going there in termsof energy transition?
Is it a country you are lookingto as an example?
Do you think it's got more workto do?
Isabel Beltrán (37:39):
I think it has a lot more work to do.
We're not active in Ecuadorright now.
Ironically, the energy matrixin Ecuador was, or is still,
highly renewable hydro, but therecent drought has pushed the
country to basically haveelectricity cuts every day for
(38:00):
several hours.
This happened when I was little.
I remember having electricitycuts when I was like maybe in
primary school, and you forgetwhat it means to not have
electricity for six hours everyday.
And now we're living that againand realizing that it's fragile
.
So, like right now, theinfrastructure solutions that
(38:21):
are needed are costly, are goingto take time.
So I think the country's in acomplicated situation where it
was highly dependent on hydro.
Hydro is variable, or way morevariable than we anticipated,
and now you're forced to rethink.
How do you supplement that, andyou know obviously diesel is an
alternative, but we don't wantthat happening in many of the
(38:43):
countries.
This can be an emergencyresponse, but we will want to
see the countries taking thisand actually building resilience
without the diesel or withoutpolluting.
Stewart Muir (38:53):
There's other regions that are going through
this very same problem, in fact,where I am in Western Canada,
and also our neighbors in theUnited States, in the Pacific
Northwest you think of Seattle,that's where it's always raining
.
Vancouver rains a lot too, soyou think endless hydro.
Actually, we've had droughtshere too, and our 90 plus
percent reliance on electricityis being challenged.
(39:14):
We're still there, butimporting more electricity, and
it's something that affects awealthy country and its neighbor
.
So it doesn't seem to be easyto escape from this.
Do you think that in yourcareer ahead of you, decades
ahead of you, you will get to apoint where there'll be easier
(39:36):
applications that you can justwheel in to a country, say, look
, we've solved this problem,here we go, just do this.
Isabel Beltrán (39:42):
I think it will get easier.
I don't think it will be like avery easy one size fits all,
but I think, as we learn anddemonstrate from examples from
some countries, it will geteasier for others to embrace the
transition with less hesitation.
I mean, the energy sector issuch a political and fragile and
vital sector for any economythat you really need to provide
(40:05):
the most security to thepolicymakers on how this is
going to work, and we're doingthat.
I mean we have the examplesfrom Europe and the United
States and Canada and thedeveloping world.
We just need to translate thosestart translating those to the
developing nations.
Stewart Muir (40:21):
Now, isabel, I know that is a relatively new
organization and, having startedorganizations myself, I also
know how long it can take forthere to be recognition.
So, with that in mind, tell methe story of .
Isabel Beltrán (40:36):
I think the story of is long, but we'll try
to summarize.
I mean, is born from the workthat the Rockefeller Foundation
had been doing for 10 plus yearsin the energy sector.
The Rockefeller Foundation hadworked in Africa and in Asia in
the energy sector not in LatinAmerica.
In Asia in the energy sector,not in Latin America.
(40:57):
And then, through COVID, westarted thinking or the
Rockefeller Foundationleadership started thinking on
how this was an opportunity fora green economic recovery right
and how climate and how sort ofthe provision of green energy
and investments in green energycould help not only economic
(41:18):
growth but at the same time alsocontribute to the climate
change objectives.
They made a big bet, a biggumball here, and then decided
and got other foundationssupport to create what will be ,
a global organization that willbe dedicated to support energy
(41:41):
access and energy transitionglobally.
And so we got the support aswell from IKEA Foundation and
support from the Bezos EarthFund, and that's how was
created.
So in our mandate we're focusedon energy access issues, green
energy transition and ourcontributions to climate change.
(42:03):
And so here we are.
Stewart Muir (42:05):
Do you find it in yourself frustration or a source
of inspiration to see themonumental scale of these
challenges?
Isabel Beltrán (42:15):
They are both scary and intimidating, but
they're so essential that italso becomes a real, true
motivation.
I think we see the impacts ofclimate change in our weather,
and so if we don't actdecisively, if we don't act
swiftly, it's not a matter ofimagining what's coming.
We are starting to live it,really understanding how we can
(42:38):
support the countries, how newalliances need to be formed, how
about before?
You know, we used to talk aboutjust the private sector, like
the role of the private sector.
I think we all have a role theprivate sector, the public
sector, the internationalfinancial institutions and the
philanthropic sector.
I think that coordination andthe need for all these actors to
coordinate and to supportcountries in this path and
(43:02):
support patiently this is notsomething that is going to
happen in a year.
This is going to take time andwe all have a different role to
play, right.
I mean, our different types offunding have different uses and
so how we can all really worktogether research institutions,
financial institutions,governments and I think that is
what is trying to do to be thatplatform that can bring all
(43:24):
these actors together in supportof one country's energy
transition path and figuring itout along the way how we can
best accelerate, extractlearnings and help other
countries do the same.
Stewart Muir (43:36):
Isabel, your work is pivotal in reshaping the
global energy landscape.
What you do at .
What message would you like toshare with our listeners about
the path forward in achieving ajust and equitable energy
transition?
Isabel Beltrán (43:52):
I think the main message is that it's going to
take a little bit of everyone'seffort and commitment this is a
multi-sector, a multi-actor workand challenge and that it's
going to take time.
The results are not going to beseen tomorrow, but nonetheless
we have to believe we're on theright path and we have to
(44:14):
continue doing it.
And so setbacks.
There will be setbacks alongthe way, but we must keep
pushing forward and work in amore coordinated way.
I think the world will benefita lot for increased coordination
among actors.
Stewart Muir (44:29):
Do you feel there has been tangible change since
you started focusing on thisarea yourself?
Isabel Beltrán (44:36):
Yes, I do think there's a lot of other actors,
and then there's a lot of newactors and then new
philanthropies or new fundersthat see the strong linkages
between so, for example, theenergy sector and the
agricultural sector, or theenergy sector and the health
sector.
I think I started to see a lotmore understanding of how
working in energy is not justabout energy, but it's about how
(44:59):
that energy makes you know forbetter health, for a more
productive agriculturalenterprises and for just better
economic development.
Stewart Muir (45:08):
Well, if you can bring everyone along that way,
not just those who are goingthrough a transition in one of
the countries you work in, but,I think, the broader coalition
of all the countries of theworld, you can be very
successful.
Isabel Beltrán (45:21):
Yeah, absolutely , absolutely, and I think that's
one of the visions that has.
Like, you know how we can workwith all of our partners and how
you know what is the role thateach of us can play in a more
effective way to push thisforward.
Stewart Muir (45:35):
Isabel, you have these massive goals.
How do you even begin to breakthem down is what I'm thinking,
and you know literally day afterday.
How do you work to make thesemassive changes when you enter a
new country that is going towork in?
Isabel Beltrán (45:52):
It reminds me a little bit of our work in Haiti
and our start in our nascentwork in Brazil.
First, you have to start byunderstanding, like, what is the
reality, like really takingyour time to understand what are
the needs, who is doing what inthe country, and trying to
figure out where is your supportor where is support needed and
who can be the best position toprovide that Countries are
(46:15):
working.
Countries are working hard,they all have agendas, they all
have goals, and so really takingthe time to figure out and
working alongside the countriesto ensure that what you are
doing is not only additional butalso it's building upon what
they're doing.
So, for example, in Brazilwe're working with Energies of
(46:35):
the Amazon and Luz para Todosprojects.
They are flagship projects fromthe Ministry of Energy.
They're gigantic interventionsin the decarbonization of the
Amazon and the electrificationof the Amazon.
You know you can say well, youknow they have invested already
hundreds of millions of dollarsin that.
What is your role, sandat?
(46:58):
What is your role?
So we discovered that our roleis the help that we can provide
is to accompany these projects,support the government in sort
of the community engagement,productive uses of electricity
angle.
How do these projects interactwith the communities.
How do we make sure that theseprojects are more sustainable?
By making sure that thecommunities can use this energy
productively, can pay the billsof the energy that generates
(47:20):
more income for them.
How do we actually, beyond theenergy, what is the accompanying
things that need to go in thesocial and community and
business side?
That makes this projectsuccessful, with the hopes that
the government will take theselessons and then incorporate
international programs?
It was a very clear example ofworking closely with the
government to understand whatare they doing, how are they
(47:42):
doing it, what do they need.
Could we support that and howdo we make sure that our support
is done in a way that we canstrike the learning so that the
government can use them in a waythat makes sense for their
policies?
And this is coming from, youknow, working with a government
that is putting massive amountsof resources in the access and
decarbonization agenda,especially in the Amazon region,
(48:03):
and then, in the other hand,you have countries like Haiti,
where there's so many actors,everyone is trying to do
something because the needs areso big, and so we have worked
with all of the partners in thecountry to try to coordinate,
sort of all these organizationsand figure out what we can do
and how to accelerate the workthat others, the investments
(48:24):
that others are putting in.
So the World Bank, for example,and the IDV have massive
investments in mini-grids inHaiti and we defined jointly
that what could be helpful is ifwe could support the government
to increase some capacity onthe regulatory side and on the
ministry side to actuallyanalyze and push forward these
projects.
So that's what we're doing.
So it's all about.
(48:45):
For us it has been in LatinAmerica.
It has been all about workingin coordination with several
actors defining how we can beadditive.
There's work already going onin many of these countries.
There's many organizationsworking on energy issues.
For us, being successful isreally figuring it out.
What is our value add?
Stewart Muir (49:04):
I appreciate that level of insight, which I think
we don't often hear intointernational organizations like
yours, and we can deliver themto the audience here of Power
Struggle.
So thank you for sharing that.
Isabel Beltrán (49:19):
No, thank you for listening to us.
Stewart Muir (49:21):
Latin America is such a vibrant and culturally
diverse region.
If you could take our listenerson a tour of your favorite
spots and I know you've been allaround Latin America where
would you go first?
Isabel Beltrán (49:36):
I think I'll have to say Ecuador just because
I'm Ecuadorian.
You're a little biased, I'm alittle biased.
All around Latin America, wherewould you go first?
I think I'll have to sayEcuador just because I'm
Ecuadorian.
Stewart Muir (49:40):
You're a little biased.
I'm a little biased, that'sokay.
Isabel Beltrán (49:42):
I'm a little biased there.
What a wonderful continent.
I think it's very different,but one of the things that I
think unifies us is thatcultural sort of warmth that
everywhere you go you can workreally hard, you can have
disagreements, but at the end ofthe day, you know, it's a very
social, warm culture, and so Ithink that, at the end of the
(50:06):
day, is something that I reallyappreciate.
Working in the region, we canhave tough days at work and
discussing important issues andthen at the end of the day, you
know, we can go celebrate andhave a dinner and have a beer.
I also really appreciate themusic and in that sense, you
know Colombia, brazil, likedancing is something that is
it's really for me, uplifting.
(50:27):
And so I would say Ecuador,because I'm Ecuadorian.
It depends on what you want.
You can't go wrong.
I mean, if you want to dance,you can go to Brazil, to
Colombia.
You know the Southern Corns,it's amazing food, it's just
such a wonderful region.
Stewart Muir (50:44):
Isabel, I really appreciate the time, and also
your colleague Wu Chong came onand I really appreciate that too
.
We've had both the executiveand the operational sides, I
think, of the organizationexplained to us and maybe in
future we can come back and seehow you're progressing.
Isabel Beltrán (51:01):
Absolutely Happy to do that and tell you more
about the work and thank you forhaving us.
Stewart Muir (51:10):
Thank you.
This is Power Struggle and I'mStuart Muir.
We did that.
This happened when I was little.
I remember having electricitycuts when I was like maybe in
primary school, and you forget.
You know what it means to havelike to not have electricity for
six hours every day, and nowwe're living that again and
realizing that it's fragile.
Stewart Muir (00:27):
Welcome to Power Struggle.
I'm Stuart Muir.
Woochong Um is the ChiefExecutive Officer of the Global
Energy Alliance for People andPlanet, .
It's a multi-sector coalitionbased in New York City.
was established in 2021 toaddress one of the most pressing
(00:49):
challenges of our eraeradicating energy poverty and
combating the climate crisis.
Before joining GEOP in 2024, wuChong had a distinguished
career, including at the AsianDevelopment Bank, where he
served as managing directorgeneral.
In that capacity, he led globalpartnerships and funding
(01:09):
mechanisms aimed at transformingeconomies and communities.
I really can't think of abetter person than Wu Chong
right now to help our journey ofunderstanding here at Power
Struggle, because we'researching for all the insights
we can get on the future ofglobal energy.
(01:30):
Wu-chang Ng, welcome to PowerStruggle.
Woochong Um (01:33):
Thank you very much .
Very, very happy to be here,
Stewart Muir (01:35):
wu-chang.
Let's start at the top.
For those who might not knowwhat is GEAPP?
Woochong Um (01:40):
So GEAPP, as you mentioned, was established three
years ago, almost exactly threeyears ago, by three partners
who got together so that'sRockefeller, bezos and IKEA to
help eradicate energy povertyand, at the same time, resolve
the climate problem.
We knew that there is anexistential challenge that
(02:01):
humanity faces, challenge thatthe humanity faces.
Unless we move quickly and moreboldly, our planet will not
survive in the long run.
So that basically means we haveto do everything we can to try
to reduce the greenhouse gasemission that is, you know,
human-made to the extent of fourgigatons of CO2 emission
(02:24):
reduction.
And they also need to provideaccess to clean energy to 1.5
billion people, because, nomatter what you do in a
developed world, the developingcountries will continue to
develop and they need to get onthe clean path.
Otherwise, if they get into thefossil fuels and go for
(02:45):
short-term returns, they'regoing to be locked in to
investments that will continueto be emitting greenhouse gas
and also they will be lockedinto their obligation to import
expensive fuel from somewhereelse, so they will be much more
dependent on the fluctuatingfuel prices and so forth.
(03:05):
And then also providing thejust transition for people who
are affected by the greeneconomy.
So, whether people who are inthe fossil fuel, moving to the
clean industry, and the peoplewho can benefit from renewable
energy, whether you're a farmeror a student, men and women who
(03:27):
can benefit and improve theirlivelihood using green electrons
.
So this vision, a mega vision,was launched in Glasgow and the
idea is to bring, galvanize allthe key players around the world
to focus on this agendaglobally, focusing on the lower
(03:47):
middle-income countries and thelower-income countries so that
they can get in the right path.
Stewart Muir (03:52):
This is incredibly ambitious, but it's not your
first rodeo in solving these bigglobal challenges.
Woo-chung, what got you hookedin this space?
Woochong Um (04:04):
Well, that started about 20 years ago.
I mean, I was working in theAsian Development Bank.
I was in charge ofinfrastructure development for
their organization to buildinfrastructure that will help
eradicate poverty for thesepeople in Asia.
And in 2005, we had a visionthat we need to get countries to
(04:27):
get on the clean path, as Imentioned, so that it has a
positive impact on theenvironment but also for the
economy as well, because wedon't want countries to be
continuing to be dependent onfossil fuel import.
So we launched this thingcalled the Clean Energy Program,
where we tried to double andquadruple our investments into
(04:50):
clean energy space.
So that worked out quite wellfrom 2005 to 2010.
We were able to quadruple.
And then we started to tackleother sectors, in transport
sector, for example, becauseelectric, the efficient mobility
, is a key to economicdevelopment and if you keep just
building roads where you putfossil fuel burning cars again,
(05:12):
you're going to have a hugeimpact in global greenhouse gas
emission.
At the same time, the countrieswill be bogged down with
traffic, as you know.
You know when there's traffic,it does have a huge impact on
the economy.
So that's sort of the beginningof the transformation of myself
actually to get into more greeninvestments and fast forward to
(05:36):
2024,.
When I was exposed to the G-Appand the vision that the G-App
has, I felt that I could takeeverything I learned over the
last in my career, last 30 plusyears, and apply it at the
global scale.
Stewart Muir (05:52):
Well, it's going to need your skills.
Even the wealthiest countriesin the world take Germany, the
United States, canada arestruggling to reduce the
emissions.
They're not meeting theirtargets.
How is it going to be possiblefor the developing world, for
the lower and middle incomenations, to do it if these
wealthy countries haven't shownthat much progress?
Woochong Um (06:14):
Well, I think you're underestimating the power
of the wealthier countries,because you do have technology
and finances and the challengethat we face is that there's a
lot of money out there that'sready for investment, but only a
fraction of the investments outthere actually eventually flow
to the developing countries.
And when you talk about thecommitments made by any country
(06:36):
global greenhouse gas emissionreduction, decarbonization is a
global issue.
And if you're in Canada, you'remuch more efficient than
developing country.
So it's actually much morecostly to do additional
decarbonization in the developedcountry than you can do in
developing country.
So what we are trying to do iscapture the knowledge, the
(07:00):
technology and the finance thatare domiciled in the developed
country to be channeled todeveloping countries, countries
where development will happen ina big way and the cost of
decarbonizing is much cheaper indeveloping country than in the
developed country.
So the opportunity is there.
So whether you reduce 100gigatons of greenhouse gas in
(07:23):
developing country versus Canada, the impact is the same.
It's the global impact.
So we are basically relying ondeveloped countries to do what
you need to do in your owncountry, but we are trying to
facilitate the developed countryto help the developing country
so that we can all helpourselves in a global way.
Stewart Muir (07:44):
I think you're saying something really
important there.
It sounds like the technologiesthat are being incubated,
developed, implemented indeveloped countries can be
brought to developing countriesat the time when they are first
embarking on a moreenergy-intensive Exactly, yeah
Right, that's an importantthought.
Intensity Exactly, yeah Right,that's an important thought.
(08:07):
Recently, you were at COP29 inAzerbaijan and at the climate
summit in late 2024, wascredited for being front and
center in the historic $300billion climate funding deal and
you were in the room where ithappened.
Woochong Um (08:23):
We are almost 10 years since Paris in 2015.
And there's a generalimpression that we need to ramp
up our efforts so that 300billion number may be not as big
as what some people hadexpected, but it's a significant
signal that the stakeholdershave sent that we mean business
(08:45):
and towards the COP30 next yearin Belém, brazil.
So the fact that there is adeal is a very, very important
step.
This also sends a signal thateveryone needs to focus more to
turn that $300 billion intotrillions of dollars by
mobilizing private capital,because that's where the real
money is.
So the G-App you know we have50 plus partners around the
(09:09):
world.
We're working together andthose partnership encompasses
the public sector and theprivate sector, and we're trying
to come up with a mechanism andapproaches that will crowd in
private capital.
So that means that we have totackle in several different
areas.
One is, as I mentioned, we areworking in a developing country,
so the developing countrycapacity and their capability
(09:33):
needs to be enhanced by way ofintroducing reforms, by
providing capacity building,technical assistance, so that
the regulatory framework is muchmore efficient for private
capital to flow in.
But also, more importantly, weneed to help these countries to
have more bankable projectswhich are attractive to
(09:54):
investors in private space.
And when you try to attractprivate capital, they do need to
make money somehow right.
So you cannot expect privatesector to put their capital
where there's money losingbusiness.
So supporting these countries inproject development is another
space that we can get involvedin, and then we participate in
(10:16):
structuring deals where privatecapital is brought in, whether
we use, you know, guaranteefirst, loss guarantee kind of
thing, or equity investment oreven debt investment.
So by us getting involved, wecrowd in the public sector and
when we have these kind ofplayers co-investing, the
(10:36):
private sector investors feelmuch more comfortable coming in
on top of that.
So there are real risks thatthe private sector investors
will have to deal with and thatcan be dealt with by providing
guarantees, for example.
But there's also perceived risk, which is actually even bigger,
because when you're working ina frontier countries, it's the
(10:59):
first time investing in a givencountry, in Africa, let's say
people will feel nervous untilthey see somebody doing it right
.
So the fact that we areshoulder to shoulder investing
into these kind of projects willgive comfort to the private
capital investors and we canhopefully turn that $300 billion
(11:19):
into trillions of dollars inthe years to come.
Stewart Muir (11:23):
Was there a sense of disappointment that, although
$300 billion is a big number,the starting number that was
sought by those who wanted thisprogram to succeed was $1.3
trillion?
Woochong Um (11:36):
You have to start somewhere and, like I said, I
think it sent the signal that itwill happen, because I think
there are also pessimists whothought that we'll never have a
deal anyway.
Right, so it would be nice toget into trillions, but getting
it's a 300 billion is a large, alot of money that we can have
it go much farther but, like Isaid, getting into focusing on
(11:59):
crowding and more privatecapital.
Stewart Muir (12:01):
I'm trying to get a mental picture of what you'll
be going forth to actually dowith this $300 billion.
There's one program, bess, orBattery Energy Storage Systems.
That is a hot topic in yourspace, wuchong.
I know that you're unlockingsome projects in Malawi enough
to power 1.5 million electriccars in regions of Africa at one
(12:26):
time through one of theinvestments.
Can you tell us a little moreabout what that looks like?
What kind of equipment?
How is it implemented?
How is that power stored andthen utilized?
Woochong Um (12:36):
So it's battery energy storage systems best is a
real game changer.
Because when I first gotinvolved with the renewable
energy space 20 years ago, thebattery storage wasn't such a
big thing and the biggestchallenge that the renewable
energy space faced was that itcannot replace the base load.
So when somebody has noelectricity, they cannot just
(12:59):
rely on renewable energy likesolar and wind, unless you're
talking about hydro.
In Canada, there's're talkingabout hydro.
You know, in Canada there's alot of hydro, because when
there's no sun, there's noelectricity, when there's no
wind, there's no electricity.
So by introducing the besttechnology, that changes the
dynamics and over the years overthe last 20 years the cost of
actual solar panels have comedown significantly, but then the
(13:22):
issue still had reliability ofthe electricity availability.
So by integrating batterystorage, it looks like a fossil
fuel power plant because it'sconsistent and this can actually
replace the energy securityagenda of any given country.
So we get involved through theBESS consortium that we launched
(13:46):
last year about a year inSeptember 2023, where several
countries signed on to that tomajor activities in integrating
BESS into renewable energysolutions in the distributed
renewable energy space.
And that also comes withtechnology bid, but also getting
the internal regulatoryapprovals set up as well right
(14:09):
in the given country.
So this is where we actuallyprovide quite a bit of
handholding to the country sothat we can help design, use the
best practice in othercountries to implement and
promulgate some of the internalregulatory systems so that the
technologies can flow into thesecountries well.
So I'm quite optimistic thatthis will have a huge impact in
(14:31):
scaling up investments, becausewhen investments on renewable
energy can solve the energysecurity for a given country,
then people in the countrieswill take it very seriously and
at the end, like I said, bydoing installing renewable
energy best energy storage willhelp countries become
(14:51):
independent from fossil fuelimport, which means if there's a
conflict somewhere in the world, you know oil price goes up,
fuel price goes up.
They don't have to worry toomuch about the cost of their
energy because sunlight willalways be there.
Stewart Muir (15:07):
There's a lot of places in the world where they
talk about wanting to go 100%renewable and often, when you
look closer, it's quitechallenging and they're still
using fossil fuels for aviation,for manufacturing and some
things it's a little harder toget out of.
Do you think there's anyonewho's credibly saying that there
(15:32):
is truly 100%?
All the energy in our lives,for the way that you know some
country, somewhere might beliving, could become 100%
renewable, not just the portionfrom electricity, you know, I
think that if you just thinkabout it, it seems quite
daunting, but when you look atspecific examples, it is
possible to get there.
Woochong Um (15:52):
Maybe it will take time, but I know in my previous
organization they're makinginvestments in the aviation
industry for biofuel.
Now I personally haven'texperienced flying in another
plane that's flown by fuel yet.
But human being, we're amazingin terms of innovation
technology.
So give us enough time, we'llcome up with an answer, and I'm
(16:17):
an iPhone user.
This really changed the worldin 2007.
And you look at before 2007versus now.
The world we live in issomething that we never imagined
.
It's a simple thing like Uber.
Uber Eats getting things at thetip of your finger was
something that we never imaginedpossible.
(16:37):
So you got to create asituation where, in the energy
sector, we have that 2007 momentwith respect to mobile phone.
Stewart Muir (16:47):
Yeah, well, you think in 2007, all of these
things we could not havepredicted.
No one was predicting.
Here they are now.
So the same number of years infuture, 17 years down the road.
Who knows what's going to behere?
Woochong Um (17:01):
Exactly.
So.
That's the part that excites methe most coming out into this
world of J-Ab, where you know weare not just about J-Ab but we
are an alliance, as the namesays.
So we're trying to work andgalvanize all the knowledge, all
the technology, all the moneythat our partners have and
(17:22):
channel it into the places whereit will make the biggest impact
.
And we celebrate together.
Stewart Muir (17:26):
Who inspires you in this?
Who you work with?
Woochong Um (17:28):
Personally, the people that excite me the most
are the people with knowledge,the knowledge partners, and, for
example, rmi Rocky MountainInstitute.
I've worked with them sinceabout 15, 20 years ago actually,
and they're one of the alliancepartners that we work with, and
they have such a deep bench interms of their knowledge on the
(17:49):
battery storage.
So I value the partnership ofthose entities with the
knowledge that they have as themost exciting part, but of
course, we do need financiers atthe end of the day, right?
So we want to work witheveryone.
Stewart Muir (18:04):
Mm-hmm.
You know, at Power Struggle,since we launched, we've been
talking a lot and often aboutthe idea of an energy trilemma
the three-pronged challenge ofbalancing energy security energy
is there when you need it ofmaking energy affordable and of
achieving public acceptabilityin terms of sustainability.
(18:28):
As we see the developing worldnavigating through the same
energy trilemma as everybodyelse, how do you think these
decisions will be brokered?
Is there one of those thingsaffordability, reliability,
sustainability that's going tobe more emphasized or less?
How do you think that balancewill be achieved?
Woochong Um (18:50):
you know that trilemma um is a very important
topic and we see that in everyaspect of development.
And I don't know if you'refamiliar with this thing called
the JETP Just Energy TransitionPlatform.
It started in South Africa andthen now they're working in
Indonesia and also moving intoVietnam.
(19:12):
So it's about transitioningfrom energy the fossil energy to
green energy in the just way,and so there's been a lot of
lessons learned from there.
So you talk about providingtechnological solutions so that
there's a reliable electricityor energy, so that that's
securities taken and also, as wescale up production, it does
(19:36):
reduce the cost of electricityat the end of the day.
But then the most important partfrom the lessons learned is
that social acceptance part, andthat's the just part.
It's a just energy transition,and I know the colleagues
actually G7 is driving this andthe colleagues who are trying to
come up with the Just P2, 2.0is to move up the just part to
(19:59):
the front.
Because you know, for thistransition of energy transition
to happen, everyone has to be onboard, including the
politicians, the technology, thepeople, and unless the key
decision makers can ensure thatthe people affected by the whole
transition are taken care ofand the ones left behind, it
(20:21):
will not survive politically inthe country, so it will not
sustain.
So in the future, when weimplement the uh, these issues,
we have to make sure that thatwe do proper analysis in terms
of social impact and then bringeveryone on board and then make
sure that no one's left behindin that transition process.
Stewart Muir (20:43):
It's a very interesting moment we're in, the
geopolitical insecurity, thechange, political change in
countries that in some cases aresaying this is a moment we're
going to pivot, you might say,back to having higher
reliability and affordabilityover sustainability, so those
(21:08):
values of the energy trilemmabecome enhanced.
Do you feel there's a role toset an example for the
developing countries that are inyour group, in your circle,
that you are working with, whereyou want to see a certain kind
of leadership?
Woochong Um (21:23):
No.
So this is a very importantquestion.
You know it's very, veryimportant.
As part of our alliance work,the advocacy and communication
is one of the things that we do,and right now it's in 2025, it
will be even more important thatwe wrap up that side of the
things that we do.
And right now, in 2025, it willbe even more important that we
wrap up that side of the work,because we have to make sure
(21:44):
that people understand thatgreen transition is good for
business and good for economy.
Of course, it's good fordecarbonization and global
warming, but at the end of theday, people will benefit from
cleaner, cheaper electricitythat's more stable.
So we have to make sure that wecommunicate this so that people
don't get distracted withwhatever other options that may
(22:06):
come which might be a bit moreshort-term cited than what we're
trying to preach.
Stewart Muir (22:12):
Wu Chong, after you, we're going to bridge into
a discussion in today's PowerStruggle with your colleague,
Isabel Beltran, and before we dothat, I'd like you, wuchong, to
tell us a little bit aboutIsabel.
Woochong Um (22:26):
Well, isabel is the vice president for our Latin
America and Caribbean businessand last month I spent some time
with her in Belém, brazil,where the cop 30 will be
organized, and she's an amazingperson who knows how to get
things done on the ground andshe has a the power of influence
(22:47):
, of getting people to do theright thing, and the kind of
support that she's getting fromthe, from the latin american
countries I've personallywitnessed, and she was the key
person who drove our universalaccess coalition work together
with the Brazilian government,as we are supporting the
(23:08):
Brazilian government in theirenergies for the Amazon
initiative, which she will tellyou all about, and I expect she
will be quite noticeable in thenext one year leading up to
COP30.
Stewart Muir (23:22):
Well, that's a great introduction and I think
it's a chance, on today'sepisode, to bridge from the
high-level leadership thestrategy that you've explained
to us, wu Chong, and introduceIsabel Beltran.
Isabel Beltrán (23:34):
Yeah, hi, good afternoon.
Stewart Muir (23:35):
Isabel is vice president at and leads the work
in Latin America, as well asthe Caribbean.
She has more than 15 years ofexperience in economic
development, having worked atthe World Bank and the
Inter-American Development Bank,focusing on sub-Saharan Africa
as well as Latin America.
She has a master's in economicsfrom the Catholic University in
(23:56):
Ecuador and a master's inpublic administration from
Syracuse University.
Isabel welcome.
Isabel Beltrán (24:03):
Thank you, happy to be here, stuart.
Stewart Muir (24:05):
You've accomplished so much in your
career.
If you weren't solving energypoverty, what do you think you'd
be doing?
Isabel Beltrán (24:13):
I actually think I'll be working on poverty
issues, economic development,and that's where my career
started, studying economics as away to help developing
countries like mine I'mEcuadorian to really lift the
population out of poverty.
And then somehow, through mycareer, I learned, or I found,
that one of the most effectivepaths to do that is through
(24:36):
energy and through the provisionof reliable energy.
And so here I am.
Stewart Muir (24:41):
Energy sounds very specific, but you've chosen it
as a thing to further your work.
Is that because there'ssomething different about energy
than maybe some other sectors?
Isabel Beltrán (24:51):
I think all sectors are important.
However, through my work at theRockefeller Foundation and 100
Resilient Cities and thinkingabout resilience, energy is one
of those sectors that reallytouches a lot of and can
influence a lot of many others,and so we've done studies with a
multi-poverty development indexpeople that indicate that one
(25:14):
of the sectors that influencesmore than the other ones is
energy, and so if you can reallyfocus on providing energy and
make sure that the communitiesand the people are using that
energy productively, that's oneof the best indicators of
development.
So it's a matter of not onlygood for the environment, but
also a really effective povertyreduction mechanism.
Stewart Muir (25:38):
Now, when you take these high-level agreements,
like we saw at COP29, $300billion committed to deal with
these issues what does it meanon the ground for you,
particularly in Latin Americaand the Caribbean?
Isabel Beltrán (25:50):
I think for me, latin America is a particular
region in terms of a fairlyclean region, fairly clean
energy matrix and highelectrification rates.
So, like almost 97% dependingon who you ask of the region is
electrified already.
However, the issues aredifferent, right, so you have a
(26:12):
region that is highly dependenton hydropower and that is really
impacted by climate change.
You have a lot of drought rightnow that is affecting actually
electricity provision in Peru,in Ecuador, risking electricity
provision in Brazil, so you'restarting to see that the effects
of climate change are reallyaffecting energy systems.
(26:35):
And in the Caribbean, you haveseen the islands suffer more
frequent, stronger hurricanesyear after year, and these
hurricanes destroy theirelectricity systems, which was
the case in Puerto Rico manyyears ago and these islands
depend also on most of themdepend on fossil fuel that they
import from somewhere else, sothey are not only disconnected
(26:58):
from electricity because thehurricanes destroy the systems,
but also the provision of dieselbecomes not very reliable, and
so these are the islands thatare really at the front of the
consequences of climate change,and so I do think that they need
to work on their energyresilience, and this is where
you see a lot of the efforts inthe Caribbean going so like how
(27:21):
do we incorporate batteries,large scale batteries, in our
system so that we have somebackup against hurricanes and
storms?
How do we become less dependenton diesel?
How do we become sort of moreself-sufficient?
Stewart Muir (27:36):
You take a country like Cuba.
They've gone through someterrible problems right now
Blackouts.
They rely on natural gas andoil for creating electricity,
but they're chronically short offuel.
They have a lot of potential,natural abundance of resources
and in the past they've had avery wealthy existence.
(27:58):
What is the perception theyhave of going through changes in
the energy system that arebeing suggested for them?
Isabel Beltrán (28:07):
I mean Cuba is an interesting example and
something that I'm not 100%familiar with, given the
political complications ofworking in Cuba.
But I suppose it's the same thatin the other islands of the
Caribbean that these new supposeit's the same that in the other
islands of the Caribbean thatthis new technology so including
renewables in your matrix isfavorable but also comes with a
different way of managing thegrid.
(28:27):
So our countries and ourutilities are used to managing
cables that are connected in anetwork, in a grid.
That's what the regulators knowhow to do, that's what the
utilities know how to manage.
Now, if you like, decentralizethe provision of energy and you
have some solar energy here,some wind energy there that
integration becomes a little bitmore complex, and that the
(28:49):
issue that the renewable energyis usually variable.
So when you have sun you havesolar energy, but it's not the
same provision as when you areburning diesel.
And so dealing with thosetechnical issues is something
that the islands need supportfrom the national community and
it's something that enables themto sort of shift their matrix
(29:11):
from burning diesel or fuelsthat they import to actually be
able to take advantage of thevast wind and solar resources
that they have.
So the resources are there, butthe way to incorporate them is
something that needs technicalassistance, that it's costly and
needs the support from theinternational community in terms
of helping not only finance butalso know how to manage.
Stewart Muir (29:36):
In terms of adding new energy sources to lives.
That seems like something thateveryone's open to these days,
but at the same time, you couldsee a Colombia saying we're
going to reduce our reliance onfossil fuels, but then the next
day, oh, argentina is going toincrease its offshore drilling
(29:57):
for oil and gas, and you haveVenezuela, which will do, you
know, something they choose todo.
When you're traveling around toall these different countries
that have different issues,different priorities, different
politics, what themes are youseeing in how this transition is
emerging in terms of what thepublic wants, what political
(30:19):
leaders are doing?
Isabel Beltrán (30:20):
I think there's two main things At the high
level is the need to demonstrateand work with these countries
in what is their sort of newgreen industrialization strategy
.
So what are the countries goingto do in lieu of exporting oil
or natural gas, like there hasto be an alternative.
This is, you know, part oftheir economic development.
(30:43):
So what is the opportunity ofthe Latin American region in
this new sort of energy world?
On producing some of thematerials that are needed for
the energy transition.
A lot of the minerals for theenergy transition, like copper
and lithium, are in LatinAmerica.
(31:04):
So how does the region takeadvantage of this and pushes an
industrialization agenda thatcan provide not only lithium but
maybe lithium batteries orproduction of panels?
What is the alternative forthese countries?
You can come in with an agendaof saying you need to
decarbonize and you need to stopselling oil, but there needs to
(31:26):
be an alternative and there arealternatives and it's just a
matter of partnering with thecountries with complete packages
of technical assistance andfinancial support to push these
industrialization agendas.
And, on the other hand,especially in Latin America, you
see a region that, talking withmany of the ministers, they
struggle to fully embrace thetransition when they still are
(31:48):
leaving people behind.
So many of them.
You will hear them say likethere's no transition without
taking everyone right.
We need to reach.
This is a region that is veryclose to reaching 100%
electrification, but those lastI don't know 16, 17, 18 million
depends on what statistic youuse are the people that remain
(32:09):
unconnected, plus 60%, plusmillion of people that have
connection, but it's not reallygood.
It's like maybe a couple ofhours a day.
Those are the most complexbecause they are the farthest,
they are the most expensive,they are the poorest, they're
usually isolated, indigenousAfro-descentant communities.
(32:30):
The technologies what is thefinancing mechanisms?
What are the arrangements thatare needed to reach the last
mile and to reach 100 percent?
I think a lot of the ministershave said we can't, you know,
talk about transition when westill have, like you know, three
, four million people that donot have any access, and so
that's also something that we,you know, have been supporting
(32:50):
and the push behind the creationof the Universal Access
Coalition.
It's like we can, lac could bethe region that reaches 100% and
, in doing so, extract a lot ofthe learnings that other regions
are going to need further on.
Stewart Muir (33:06):
I'd like to dig into the Universal Access
Coalition in a moment, because Ijust want to stay with this
topic.
You raised something criticalminerals.
I think of a country like Chilewhich has got an incredible
amount of mineral wealth,especially copper, without which
there is no energy transition,there's no electrification.
So putting countries like thisin the driver's seat, or seeing
(33:31):
them take that place throughtheir own actions, seems like a
very timely and smart thing tobe doing.
Isabel Beltrán (33:38):
Yes, absolutely.
I think supporting these neweconomies and the development of
these new industries is key atthis moment, and it's also key
for the region, right?
And then, you know, providingsome alternative supplies from
other continents.
Stewart Muir (33:53):
So can you give me some insights into the
Universal Access Coalition?
Where did this idea come from,what problems does it solve that
are hard problems to solve byother means, and how is it going
?
Isabel Beltrán (34:05):
Yes.
So this was a little bit of acrazy ambitious idea that we had
talking to many of the otherpartners working on access right
the World Bank, theInter-American Development Bank,
ia, irena.
We talked to everyone tounderstand what was the problem
and what was needed and whatwere the limitations, to realize
that there's a lot of fundinggoing to the sector not nearly
(34:28):
enough but there's some fundinggoing to universal access in
Latin America, but the fundingis very uncoordinated, that
there's small pilots, that thelessons have not been shared,
that you need scale, that it'sreally expensive and also the
understanding that whateverapproach got a country to 95% or
96% electrification, thatapproach is not going to be the
(34:51):
one that takes you to 100%.
That last percentage needs adifferent way of working.
And so all of theseorganizations have come together
, sort of with a common visionof working together in
coordination, sharing lessons,coordinating our interventions.
We can attract more funding tothe sector, we can bring a
(35:14):
little bit of scale to the workand we can really accelerate
reaching 100%, like none ofthese organizations can do it
individually.
And so we've come together, asat least you know, as an
informal group of organizationsworking and leaders working in
the sector to say what are thethings that we could do together
or in soft groups that willreally push the agenda forward,
(35:38):
and how can we work on thosethings between now and 2030 to
make it a reality that we willhave universal access in the
region.
Stewart Muir (35:48):
Is there one thing that seems to be the most
effective single thing thatyou've stumbled upon?
Isabel Beltrán (35:53):
No, there's not like a one solution for all
you've stumbled upon.
No, there's not like a onesolution for all.
But among the things that wehave discussed is the need to
aggregate funding, so the needto provide a platform through
which donors can aggregatefunding in a bigger scale,
instead of small pilots here andthere.
(36:14):
So, like, could we create, like, a multi-donor trust fund
dedicated to energy issues?
We also talked about how allthis energy interventions need
to come really closelycoordinated with productive use
and economic developmentinterventions.
I always keep this in my mind,but you know, with the
(36:34):
electricity itself, you don't doanything with the cable.
It's what you do with thatenergy that provides development
.
So, like, how can we work withthe communities in terms of,
like, making their agriculturalpractices more sustainable or
more productive, or take them toa little bit of a bigger scale?
That's what actually producesdevelopment.
And the other thing is, we'vetalked about the need to really
(36:59):
update the regulation.
And what is the regulatoryframework that enables different
types of business models ortechnologies that address this
last mile?
Because all these regulationsand all these utilities were
created and designed for onegrid right Central generation
and so this last mile needs alittle bit of a different
(37:20):
approach and that takes somework, but countries can learn
from each other.
Stewart Muir (37:24):
Isabel, you come from Ecuador, so I'm thinking
you must know the issues andchallenges of Ecuador rather
well.
How is it going there in termsof energy transition?
Is it a country you are lookingto as an example?
Do you think it's got more workto do?
Isabel Beltrán (37:39):
I think it has a lot more work to do.
We're not active in Ecuadorright now.
Ironically, the energy matrixin Ecuador was, or is still,
highly renewable hydro, but therecent drought has pushed the
country to basically haveelectricity cuts every day for
(38:00):
several hours.
This happened when I was little.
I remember having electricitycuts when I was like maybe in
primary school, and you forgetwhat it means to not have
electricity for six hours everyday.
And now we're living that againand realizing that it's fragile
.
So, like right now, theinfrastructure solutions that
(38:21):
are needed are costly, are goingto take time.
So I think the country's in acomplicated situation where it
was highly dependent on hydro.
Hydro is variable, or way morevariable than we anticipated,
and now you're forced to rethink.
How do you supplement that, andyou know obviously diesel is an
alternative, but we don't wantthat happening in many of the
(38:43):
countries.
This can be an emergencyresponse, but we will want to
see the countries taking thisand actually building resilience
without the diesel or withoutpolluting.
Stewart Muir (38:53):
There's other regions that are going through
this very same problem, in fact,where I am in Western Canada,
and also our neighbors in theUnited States, in the Pacific
Northwest you think of Seattle,that's where it's always raining
.
Vancouver rains a lot too, soyou think endless hydro.
Actually, we've had droughtshere too, and our 90 plus
percent reliance on electricityis being challenged.
(39:14):
We're still there, butimporting more electricity, and
it's something that affects awealthy country and its neighbor
.
So it doesn't seem to be easyto escape from this.
Do you think that in yourcareer ahead of you, decades
ahead of you, you will get to apoint where there'll be easier
(39:36):
applications that you can justwheel in to a country, say, look
, we've solved this problem,here we go, just do this.
Isabel Beltrán (39:42):
I think it will get easier.
I don't think it will be like avery easy one size fits all,
but I think, as we learn anddemonstrate from examples from
some countries, it will geteasier for others to embrace the
transition with less hesitation.
I mean, the energy sector issuch a political and fragile and
vital sector for any economythat you really need to provide
(40:05):
the most security to thepolicymakers on how this is
going to work, and we're doingthat.
I mean we have the examplesfrom Europe and the United
States and Canada and thedeveloping world.
We just need to translate thosestart translating those to the
developing nations.
Stewart Muir (40:21):
Now, isabel, I know that is a relatively new
organization and, having startedorganizations myself, I also
know how long it can take forthere to be recognition.
So, with that in mind, tell methe story of .
Isabel Beltrán (40:36):
I think the story of is long, but we'll try
to summarize.
I mean, is born from the workthat the Rockefeller Foundation
had been doing for 10 plus yearsin the energy sector.
The Rockefeller Foundation hadworked in Africa and in Asia in
the energy sector not in LatinAmerica.
In Asia in the energy sector,not in Latin America.
(40:57):
And then, through COVID, westarted thinking or the
Rockefeller Foundationleadership started thinking on
how this was an opportunity fora green economic recovery right
and how climate and how sort ofthe provision of green energy
and investments in green energycould help not only economic
(41:18):
growth but at the same time alsocontribute to the climate
change objectives.
They made a big bet, a biggumball here, and then decided
and got other foundationssupport to create what will be ,
a global organization that willbe dedicated to support energy
(41:41):
access and energy transitionglobally.
And so we got the support aswell from IKEA Foundation and
support from the Bezos EarthFund, and that's how was
created.
So in our mandate we're focusedon energy access issues, green
energy transition and ourcontributions to climate change.
(42:03):
And so here we are.
Stewart Muir (42:05):
Do you find it in yourself frustration or a source
of inspiration to see themonumental scale of these
challenges?
Isabel Beltrán (42:15):
They are both scary and intimidating, but
they're so essential that italso becomes a real, true
motivation.
I think we see the impacts ofclimate change in our weather,
and so if we don't actdecisively, if we don't act
swiftly, it's not a matter ofimagining what's coming.
We are starting to live it,really understanding how we can
(42:38):
support the countries, how newalliances need to be formed, how
about before?
You know, we used to talk aboutjust the private sector, like
the role of the private sector.
I think we all have a role theprivate sector, the public
sector, the internationalfinancial institutions and the
philanthropic sector.
I think that coordination andthe need for all these actors to
coordinate and to supportcountries in this path and
(43:02):
support patiently this is notsomething that is going to
happen in a year.
This is going to take time andwe all have a different role to
play, right.
I mean, our different types offunding have different uses and
so how we can all really worktogether research institutions,
financial institutions,governments and I think that is
what is trying to do to be thatplatform that can bring all
(43:24):
these actors together in supportof one country's energy
transition path and figuring itout along the way how we can
best accelerate, extractlearnings and help other
countries do the same.
Stewart Muir (43:36):
Isabel, your work is pivotal in reshaping the
global energy landscape.
What you do at .
What message would you like toshare with our listeners about
the path forward in achieving ajust and equitable energy
transition?
Isabel Beltrán (43:52):
I think the main message is that it's going to
take a little bit of everyone'seffort and commitment this is a
multi-sector, a multi-actor workand challenge and that it's
going to take time.
The results are not going to beseen tomorrow, but nonetheless
we have to believe we're on theright path and we have to
(44:14):
continue doing it.
And so setbacks.
There will be setbacks alongthe way, but we must keep
pushing forward and work in amore coordinated way.
I think the world will benefita lot for increased coordination
among actors.
Stewart Muir (44:29):
Do you feel there has been tangible change since
you started focusing on thisarea yourself?
Isabel Beltrán (44:36):
Yes, I do think there's a lot of other actors,
and then there's a lot of newactors and then new
philanthropies or new fundersthat see the strong linkages
between so, for example, theenergy sector and the
agricultural sector, or theenergy sector and the health
sector.
I think I started to see a lotmore understanding of how
working in energy is not justabout energy, but it's about how
(44:59):
that energy makes you know forbetter health, for a more
productive agriculturalenterprises and for just better
economic development.
Stewart Muir (45:08):
Well, if you can bring everyone along that way,
not just those who are goingthrough a transition in one of
the countries you work in, but,I think, the broader coalition
of all the countries of theworld, you can be very
successful.
Isabel Beltrán (45:21):
Yeah, absolutely , absolutely, and I think that's
one of the visions that has.
Like, you know how we can workwith all of our partners and how
you know what is the role thateach of us can play in a more
effective way to push thisforward.
Stewart Muir (45:35):
Isabel, you have these massive goals.
How do you even begin to breakthem down is what I'm thinking,
and you know literally day afterday.
How do you work to make thesemassive changes when you enter a
new country that is going towork in?
Isabel Beltrán (45:52):
It reminds me a little bit of our work in Haiti
and our start in our nascentwork in Brazil.
First, you have to start byunderstanding, like, what is the
reality, like really takingyour time to understand what are
the needs, who is doing what inthe country, and trying to
figure out where is your supportor where is support needed and
who can be the best position toprovide that Countries are
(46:15):
working.
Countries are working hard,they all have agendas, they all
have goals, and so really takingthe time to figure out and
working alongside the countriesto ensure that what you are
doing is not only additional butalso it's building upon what
they're doing.
So, for example, in Brazilwe're working with Energies of
(46:35):
the Amazon and Luz para Todosprojects.
They are flagship projects fromthe Ministry of Energy.
They're gigantic interventionsin the decarbonization of the
Amazon and the electrificationof the Amazon.
You know you can say well, youknow they have invested already
hundreds of millions of dollarsin that.
What is your role, sandat?
(46:58):
What is your role?
So we discovered that our roleis the help that we can provide
is to accompany these projects,support the government in sort
of the community engagement,productive uses of electricity
angle.
How do these projects interactwith the communities.
How do we make sure that theseprojects are more sustainable?
By making sure that thecommunities can use this energy
productively, can pay the billsof the energy that generates
(47:20):
more income for them.
How do we actually, beyond theenergy, what is the accompanying
things that need to go in thesocial and community and
business side?
That makes this projectsuccessful, with the hopes that
the government will take theselessons and then incorporate
international programs?
It was a very clear example ofworking closely with the
government to understand whatare they doing, how are they
(47:42):
doing it, what do they need.
Could we support that and howdo we make sure that our support
is done in a way that we canstrike the learning so that the
government can use them in a waythat makes sense for their
policies?
And this is coming from, youknow, working with a government
that is putting massive amountsof resources in the access and
decarbonization agenda,especially in the Amazon region,
(48:03):
and then, in the other hand,you have countries like Haiti,
where there's so many actors,everyone is trying to do
something because the needs areso big, and so we have worked
with all of the partners in thecountry to try to coordinate,
sort of all these organizationsand figure out what we can do
and how to accelerate the workthat others, the investments
(48:24):
that others are putting in.
So the World Bank, for example,and the IDV have massive
investments in mini-grids inHaiti and we defined jointly
that what could be helpful is ifwe could support the government
to increase some capacity onthe regulatory side and on the
ministry side to actuallyanalyze and push forward these
projects.
So that's what we're doing.
So it's all about.
(48:45):
For us it has been in LatinAmerica.
It has been all about workingin coordination with several
actors defining how we can beadditive.
There's work already going onin many of these countries.
There's many organizationsworking on energy issues.
For us, being successful isreally figuring it out.
What is our value add?
Stewart Muir (49:04):
I appreciate that level of insight, which I think
we don't often hear intointernational organizations like
yours, and we can deliver themto the audience here of Power
Struggle.
So thank you for sharing that.
Isabel Beltrán (49:19):
No, thank you for listening to us.
Stewart Muir (49:21):
Latin America is such a vibrant and culturally
diverse region.
If you could take our listenerson a tour of your favorite
spots and I know you've been allaround Latin America where
would you go first?
Isabel Beltrán (49:36):
I think I'll have to say Ecuador just because
I'm Ecuadorian.
You're a little biased, I'm alittle biased.
All around Latin America, wherewould you go first?
I think I'll have to sayEcuador just because I'm
Ecuadorian.
Stewart Muir (49:40):
You're a little biased.
I'm a little biased, that'sokay.
Isabel Beltrán (49:42):
I'm a little biased there.
What a wonderful continent.
I think it's very different,but one of the things that I
think unifies us is thatcultural sort of warmth that
everywhere you go you can workreally hard, you can have
disagreements, but at the end ofthe day, you know, it's a very
social, warm culture, and so Ithink that, at the end of the
(50:06):
day, is something that I reallyappreciate.
Working in the region, we canhave tough days at work and
discussing important issues andthen at the end of the day, you
know, we can go celebrate andhave a dinner and have a beer.
I also really appreciate themusic and in that sense, you
know Colombia, brazil, likedancing is something that is
it's really for me, uplifting.
(50:27):
And so I would say Ecuador,because I'm Ecuadorian.
It depends on what you want.
You can't go wrong.
I mean, if you want to dance,you can go to Brazil, to
Colombia.
You know the Southern Corns,it's amazing food, it's just
such a wonderful region.
Stewart Muir (50:44):
Isabel, I really appreciate the time, and also
your colleague Wu Chong came onand I really appreciate that too
.
We've had both the executiveand the operational sides, I
think, of the organizationexplained to us and maybe in
future we can come back and seehow you're progressing.
Isabel Beltrán (51:01):
Absolutely Happy to do that and tell you more
about the work and thank you forhaving us.
Stewart Muir (51:10):
Thank you.
This is Power Struggle and I'mStuart Muir.
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