May 22, 2025 • 39 mins
Can you work in oil and gas and still be an environmentalist? Jason Switzer says yes. In this episode, he joins host Stewart Muir to talk certified natural gas, ESG, Indigenous rights, and clean tech in Canada’s energy transition.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you work with big oil and gas, and some people
might say, hey, Jason, you'reworking with the bad guys.
How do you call yourself anenvironmentalist?
Do you see yourself as in themiddle of that?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I mean that's fascinating, and where you sit
is where you stand, and we'reback where we started.
Stuart, I don't know where theindustry is right now.
It's going through agenerational shift too.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Stuart Muir and welcome to Power Struggle.
Today I'm joined by JasonSwitzer, a longtime leader and
innovator in Canada's energytransition.
Jason recently joined EquitableOrigin, where he's driving ESG
innovation and empoweringIndigenous communities to hold
resource developers accountable.
Previously, he led Carbon Next,accelerating next-generation
carbon capture and utilizationtechnologies, and he played
(00:59):
pivotal roles at Foresight, thePembina Institute, synovus and
Shell Canada.
Jason's deeply involved inCanada's clean tech ecosystem
and he holds degrees from MIT inenvironmental engineering and
public policy.
He's also a Harvard-trainedmediator and recipient of the
prestigious Clean 50 Award.
Jason, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Stuart, it's great to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It sure is to have you here, Jason.
To start off, I mentionedEquitable Origin.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, so Equitable Origin has an amazing origin
story of its own.
It is the world's first andmost comprehensive environmental
and social performance standardfor energy projects.
We've been growing for manyyears now.
Today, about 15% of US andCanadian natural gas is
(01:46):
certified under our system,which shares DNA with the Forest
Stewardship Councilcertification and many of the
other global commodity chaincertifications that your
listeners are probably familiarwith.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now everyone's familiar with going to the store
.
You get a light bulb or atoaster and you look on the
bottom and there's a littlestamp of approval from certain
authorities.
Is it a little bit like that,but for industry?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, very much so.
It's focused at the projectlevel.
Business and human rights werereally at the origin of the
establishment of the system thatwe synthesize.
(02:31):
Many of the global benchmarksand good business practices that
would be obliged by an oil andgas producer at the side level
include as well good practicearound corporate governance,
responsible business practices,fair labor practices, indigenous
rights and demonstration offree, prior and informed consent
.
And then annually, a project,because we don't provide
assurance for the whole company.
It's specific to the individualenergy project.
(02:54):
Annually they have to beaudited and demonstrate
compliance against the 500 or sobenchmarks that are in our
system.
And so if you get a stamp ofapproval, as you said, from EO,
what it really is is a scoreagainst those 500 indicators
provided by a third party that'sbeen accredited.
You know, just like you wouldget an accountant in to do your
(03:14):
finances and they would tell youat the end of the year hey,
accounting practice, this is agood statement of accounts.
Similarly, you get a goodstatement of accounts against
these environmental and socialperformance benchmarks that says
that you're doing well againstthem and that allows you to put
that gas on the market withthose environmental and social
(03:36):
performance attributes.
And hopefully Stuart saw him ata bit of a premium.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How would you break it down for the average person?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
The easiest way to think about it is hey, there's
this set of 500 or so thingsthat you've got to demonstrate
you're doing well against to geta stamp of approval under our
system.
And so if you want to do theeffort to get our seal of
approval, it requires a wholelot of work to put the evidence
together and then have somebodywho's similar to an accountant,
(04:06):
who looks at your books at theend of the year, who will tell
you how you're doing againstthat and give you a score, and
that's how you get our seal ofapproval.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay.
Well, this is where it getsinteresting, I think, because
everyone uses energy, and thatincludes the energy that your
equitable origin brand appearson.
So everyone really has, whetherthey know it or not, a stake in
this.
And I'm going to guess that notevery kind of energy or every
energy product that people mightconsume might put in their gas
(04:37):
tank.
Or maybe they're flying toThailand to have a vacation.
Is that jet fuel in the planethat's carrying them there and
home?
Is it certified?
Is the gas when they're heatingtheir home in winter?
Is that certified?
How do you know?
What difference does it makewhether it's certified or not?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, that's going to be a tough thing to answer
concisely at any barbecue,stuart, so let me try and break
that into a few different pieces.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
We've gone to the cigars and brandy stage.
It's 2 in the morning, let's goto cigars.
Let's go to cigars.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
What does it actually mean and who actually is using
it?
So why don't we take the who'sactually using it first?
So a lot of large gas usersreally care about where their
gas comes from probably more sonow than ever before Like an
industrial customer, natural gasright and, to be clear, the
(05:31):
buyers are buyers who have astake in this right.
So one big buyer of ourcertified gas is a utility in
Quebec called Energier.
They're the largest natural gasutility in BC.
It would be Fortis in Alberta,maybe Enbridge, but essentially
(05:52):
it's your large gas utilitythat's distributing gas and you
want to say, hey, I'd like tomake sure that my gas comes from
Canada and that it meets a setof environmental obligations
that are more than just what'srequired by regulation but
actually demonstrate leadershipacross all the different aspects
of that environmentalperformance and also that
(06:12):
indigenous peoples' rightsholders across, in particular,
british Columbia and Alberta,which is where a lot of Canada's
gas comes from, that thoseright holders are fairly
compensated and even are fullyequity participants in the gas
that's being produced.
And that's what makes the gasthat's certified under our
(06:35):
system unique in that it's gotto meet all these different
tests to demonstrate that itmeets those different
obligations and so yeah, soEnergear is sourcing today
probably about 40% of the gasthat they distribute to
residents and industrial usersof gas in Quebec, and their
(06:55):
commitment is to achieve 100%sourcing of EO certified gas by
2030.
So that's a pretty significantcommitment.
There are similar commitmentsby other utilities as well as
large energy providers for datacenters and other users of
energy who care where the gascomes from.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So I'm in Quebec, I'm with Energier buying the gas
and the company says, yeah, thishas got the equitable origin
stamp of approval, so I'm goingto be able to tell my customers
that they're getting gas that isdescribed a certain way.
I presume that means it's gotsome positive attributes.
(07:36):
What would the positiveattributes be that a customer
like that would be able to sayto their customers?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah for sure.
So you know.
Number one, I think right nowthe world is very focused on,
you know, greenhouse gasemissions and methane abatement
in particular.
You know there's a lot ofmethane that gets released in
the course of producing naturalgas.
A big concern when you'rethinking about when you burn
natural gas to make energy ishow much methane was lost to the
(08:04):
atmosphere.
That has a very big impact onglobal warming.
It's a very powerful carbonforcer, climate forcing gas, and
so the goal of a gas buyer isto try and reduce those
emissions as much as they can,to drive higher expectations
upstream to the gas producer andto get from that a lower carbon
(08:27):
product at the other end, andthen a lot of those downstream
buyers just like you and I careabout.
Right now in particular, itmakes a difference if you're
buying apples that come from BCor from Washington State.
It makes a difference where thegas is coming from.
Is it coming from some of thereally highly regulated and then
(08:48):
independently audited gasproducers in Northeastern BC and
Central Alberta, or is itcoming from elsewhere maybe
south of the border if you're inQuebec which might not be held
to the same standards as the gasthat's coming from BC or
Alberta.
So that's what certificationhelps level out Whether the gas,
whether the molecules arecoming from the US or Canada,
(09:09):
they're being held to a commonstandard that's very high,
higher than what they'rerequired under any law.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And is this standard an international one?
Is say if Quebec is getting gas.
You mentioned the United Statesfrom some of the like
Pennsylvania, where they have alot of gas.
Maybe they're getting hyped upthere.
So do they use this system ofapproval?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, so actually Canada only represents about 20%
of the gas that's certifiedunder our system.
About 80% comes from the US,and in particular from the
Northeastern US, although wehave a lot of production as well
that's meeting our standardsfrom Texas too.
So I think in Western Canadathere's the perception that
(09:51):
Canadian gas is the best in theworld, and I think that's
probably mostly true in mostcases, that it's not a huge
extra step to meet theobligations that are under our
system if you're producing inWestern Canada.
But the reality is that a lotof producers are meeting those
same standards south of theborder as well.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Just curious about one thing.
You mentioned two terms, onemethane, the other natural gas.
You use them notinterchangeably and a lot of
time when I hear them used, theyare, it seems like synonymous
is the sense you get.
But you are drawing adistinction in how you view
what's the difference betweennatural gas and methane?
Jason, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I mean, it's really a term of art.
They are the same thing in theend.
But methane I'm reallyreferring to upstream methane
emissions.
So when you're producing gasand you know, from wellhead
until it gets to the birder tip,all of the methane that's lost
along the way, all the naturalgas that leaks out and goes to
the atmosphere, would be whatI'm referring to with you know,
(10:53):
air quotes, methane, you know.
So that's methane that a lot ofoperators are now working very
hard to reduce, and so there's anumber of different
technologies that are beingrolled out to reduce that slip,
investments being made in thingslike detection and prevention,
really, and just good managementto avoid losses of gas at each
(11:15):
step in the pathway from the gasfrom that wellhead till it gets
to the burner tip in yourkitchen.
It gets to the burner tip inyour kitchen.
Ultimately it's the same thingand methane is natural gas and
natural gas is methane.
But to make it easier to talkabout it's easier and maybe for
the purposes of our conversation, if I say methane, I'm
referring to methane emissionsinto the atmosphere that cause
(11:37):
or contribute to global warming,and natural gas is the product
that you use to make energy andother things that the world
needs.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
You know this may be a rabbit hole but nevertheless a
fascinating one.
Just to stay on that topic,sometimes you'll hear those who
are advocating strongly for anabsolute departure from the use
of fossil fuels will say oh,stop using that term natural gas
, it's just industry marketingto make it sound like it's
natural yogurt or something.
Do you think that there aredefinitional confusions or
(12:09):
controversies, that it wouldhelp if there was better public
understanding?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I mean I think you're playing a really important role
in creating space forengagement.
Right, this is an opportunityfor deeper understanding and
education of the public aroundsome of the debates that are
underway and, hopefully, interms that people can understand
, right, I don't think everybodywants a deep dive on the
(12:33):
details.
I think people really wantenergy services.
I think we care about gettingfrom point A to point B.
We care about whether our homesare reliably heated in the
winter and cool in the summers,and so on, and that you know, in
the end, that desire to justflip on the switch which is
totally right, is verychallenging.
(12:56):
Right, there's a ton, billionsand billions of dollars invested
every year to deliver thoseenergy services in North America
and Europe, you, europe, aroundthe world, asia, latin America,
africa as well.
We're very privileged to havethe ability to just flip the
switch and have the expectationthat we'll have that energy, but
, of course, things are muchmore complicated and becoming
(13:19):
more complicated, and so, yeah,I think having a deeper
understanding is critical.
I think these are deeperunderstanding is critical.
I think you know these are alsoloaded debates because I think
we all bring to them our, ourpositions.
You know, I had a professor whosaid you know where you sit is
where you stand and that it'sreally hard to get somebody
whose check depends on certainthings to happen to to speak
(13:41):
their mind in a way that that istruly honest.
Um, but I think you know theimportant goal that we got to
keep their mind in a way that istruly honest.
But I think the important goalthat we got to keep in mind here
is that we all want thoseservices, that we want them to
be reliable, that the worldneeds and is reliant on a
certain percentage of fossilfuels in every scenario of
(14:04):
climate mitigation we have, andthat, in this difficult
transition that we're in,finding a path that makes sense,
that we can kind of deal withboth economically and
politically, is really critical.
I'm very inspired by thefounder of my little
organization.
The founder of Equitable Originwas a young kid in his teens in
(14:26):
the US, by dint of a series ofcoincidences, ended up getting
involved through a socialstudies project when he was in
junior high, on the flight of aparticular indigenous group in
the Amazon who was fighting atthat time with an oil company,
texaco, over impacts that thatdevelopment was having on their
(14:46):
traditional lives andlivelihoods in the Amazon.
So you know, a kind ofcautionary story because of
levels of violence, thepollution on the ground.
A very complicated project aswell, because it's really hard
to unpack what responsibilitiesthe company had and what
responsibilities the governmenthad.
But you know, so this youngperson, as a teenager, got
(15:09):
really interested.
His teacher was related to oneof the lawyers who was active on
behalf of this indigenous group, and so he ended up convincing
his parents who knows how to geton a plane and go down and
spend some time traveling andgetting to know the community
and actually again sort of me,to we style.
(15:29):
By the time he was 15, he'dfounded a charity that was
bringing shoes to schoolchildren, pens and other things,
and as a 19-year-old he, in oneof the courses that he was
taking in university, actuallytalked one of the co-founders of
the Forest Stewardship Councilinto working with him to develop
a certification.
He's like look, we certifybananas, we certify coffee.
(15:52):
Why can't we use certificationto help these people find a path
?
Not everyone is against oil andgas development.
They're just against the kindof oil and gas development that
does harm to their communitiesand one in which they don't have
a voice or a share in thebenefits.
He's truly an optimist in thepotential for oil and gas
(16:14):
development to do good and arecognition that it would happen
, because the world needs energyanyway, that there was an
imperative to try and create amarket-based mechanism that
would incent leadership andreward it and allow the people
who are trying to do better tobe able to whether it's just a
pat on the back or actuallysomeone who's willing to pay a
(16:35):
little bit more for thatmolecule or electron to create a
mechanism for that to happen.
And I think that's the futureright.
That's a kind of optimism thatwell, it's a cautious optimism
in that it says, hey look,there's this difficult kind of
path that we have to navigateand that we can do better at it
(16:56):
and that we need to figure outcollectively how to do better at
it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
We're coming into a phase of history, it would seem,
at least the last.
Is it 100 days that have shownus that assumptions about how
the world will unfold are allwrong or turning out differently
, and one of the things is thatESG in particular has been under
attack, and whether or not someof the finance world agrees or
(17:26):
disagrees with whether ESGshould be embedded in their
world, they are needing to showthe White House that they are
not involved in ESG anymore.
That's my read of it, Jason.
What's your thoughts on thisissue?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah for sure.
I think you know I've heardthis expressed a few different
ways that the era of environmentfor environment's sake is over,
or that you know there was awhole lot of virtue signaling
that was being done around a lotof these issues, whether it was
inclusion and diversity in theworkplace, or aspirations around
getting to net zero on aparticular timeline and so on,
(18:05):
or aspirations around getting tonet zero on a particular
timeline and so on.
I guess I have two answers, andhaving listened to a few of the
pods that you've postedrecently, stuart, I have a sense
of some divergence ofperspectives as well amongst
some of the people that you'vehad.
I think, looking at the longarc of history, certain things
are hard to ignore.
If you were in the Soviet Unionbefore communism fell, the only
(18:32):
area that people were reallyable to protest was
environmental, because it was soobvious that the environment
was going downhill and that ithad to be addressed.
I think there's an expectationbuilding in the markets that's
driven in part by insurancecompanies and by financial
modeling, that we're coming intoan era of profound risk
(18:56):
associated with just theevolution of temperature on this
planet, and so I think that'sdriving certain behaviors that,
by definition, have to go beyondpolitical cycles.
And I guess answer number two isthings change.
We've been through this before.
I've worked in this space whenit was called corporate social
(19:17):
responsibility and again whenyou said, hey, we're doing these
things because it's the rightthing to do, then the minute
it's no longer the right thingto do, because it doesn't fit
the bottom line, it's gone.
So I think, no matter what,you've got to be very focused,
rigorously focused, on theeconomics of this stuff, and so
I think the things that makesense economically are going to
(19:38):
win over time.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Well, I'm glad you point to past experience as a
way to inform understandingwhere we might go.
You mentioned CSR.
Of course you mean corporatesocial responsibility.
That was a trio of letters thatused to appear in profusion in
corporate documents and in anydiscussion of what I don't know.
Do we call it social licenseanymore?
(20:02):
The issues of social license?
I think that term is understood, at least Did anything come
before that?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
The CSR probably goes back to what the 80s I mean you
know these things have beencycling for a while.
I was very fortunate when Iwent to.
You know, I did my undergradactually in Montreal, at McGill,
and I studied how to buildlarge dams, large dams.
It was a very interesting timein which at school I was
learning how to build large dams, concrete hydrology and what
(20:30):
happens when you put a wall in ariver and how that affects
upstream fisheries generally agood thing and allowed you to do
flood control and otherdownstream things while you were
making power all reallypositive things.
So in class I only heard aboutthe good things that you could
do with hydro.
I mean it was an ironic momenttoo, because at the same time
(20:52):
First Nations in Northern Quebecwere protesting construction of
dams by Hydro Quebec and weremounting large-scale protests in
downtown.
So it was sort of two differentworlds downtown.
So it was sort of two differentworlds and it wasn't until, as
(21:12):
a new, relatively freshly minteduniversity graduate, I guess, I
went to work for the WorldCommission on Dams, which was an
effort to try and square thecircle, to kind of navigate
between the massive proteststhat were facing dam building at
the time and the efforts by anumber of countries, the World
Bank and some large financialinstitutions to essentially say,
hey look, no, dams cansometimes be really good, and we
(21:35):
have lots of examples of gooddams.
So you know, how do we find apath?
There's got to be some way totake this technology, which
isn't inherently good or bad,and do it better, and so that
was an example of where peopletried to find a better way.
It was chaired by it was 2000,let's remember it was chaired by
(21:55):
the former minister of waterfor South Africa, who had spent
time in Robben Island and thiswas In prison, had spent time in
Robben Island, and this wasjust at the end of Mandela's
time and recognizing that SouthAfrica is very dependent on
hydro for its power needs, thatcountries need these tools as a
(22:17):
pathway to development and thatthere must be a better way to do
things.
Things you realize prettyquickly is environmental
problems are basically financial, that if we wanted to solve
these things we could.
It's just a question of whetherwe can afford the check.
Social license is reallycomplicated and there may be
situations in which no size ofcheck is going to be sufficient
(22:43):
to deal or to overcome publicopposition or social opposition
to a particular project, andthat's really informed a lot of
the work that I've done eversince that you can manage the
environmental issues.
But ultimately trying tonavigate the questions of who
bears the risk and who has aright to have a voice in
(23:06):
decision making and who gets astake in the benefits is really
complicated and hard to navigate.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
From that training do you see social license as a
local thing?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't actually.
I mean local is very important,but it's complicated because so
many.
It's complicated because somany actors are involved in
(23:38):
every one thing.
You know, as you understand,large-scale project finance is
just the number of differentfinancial intermediaries and
complicated relationships areinvolved in every big decision.
And then the role of governmentand the different levels of
government.
In every country, whether it'sCanada or Niger, there are a lot
of different levels ofgovernment that get involved in
every big decision, for good andfor bad.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Your journey has taken you into, say, the
practical, solutions-orientedend of the environmental
movement.
What did you learn in that?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
There's so many interesting things to say about
that.
I've been fortunate to be ableto work both in oil and gas and
then with advocacy organizationsand think tanks working, you
could say, on the other side ofit.
What's so clear is that thereare like-minded people involved
in all sides of thesediscussions and that we've been
(24:22):
polarizing these thingsprogressively over time, but
that there's an incredible needfor people who otherwise don't
talk to each other to talk toeach other, to kind of get
(24:45):
together in a room and try andfigure out how to navigate a
path that that, you know, noone's going to be entirely happy
with, but that allows forresponsible decisions to be made
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You uh, you look like you are a dad age, jason.
I don't know if you uh uhinteract with young people who
are planning their careers ever.
Do you ever get intoconversations about how
opportunities to build a careerlike yours could be started in
2025?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I mean, I think every day is so fascinating right now
.
There's so much change going on.
There's so much opportunity.
You must get this too, stuart.
I think what's changed the mostright now is the fact that you
know, when I was wanting to getinvolved in this stuff in
university, you could go andwork for an environmental
organization like a PeminaInstitute or a WWF or Greenpeace
(25:35):
.
You could go and try and get ajob in a large company, an oil
company.
Oil and gas had always hadinteresting roles in this space
and, frankly, I've been a realpioneer in a lot of the stuff
that we see globally in thisspace.
Those were kind of the auctionsand maybe you'd find work in a
(25:59):
UN organization or somethinglike that.
That was part of my journey andit was a really great part of
it.
But now, if you want to dosomething, you can start a
company.
That was just not even on theradar, but the smart kids are
taking the research that they'redoing in university and they're
spinning it into theseincredible tech plays, and I've
(26:21):
been very fortunate to work withand support and be a
cheerleader for a lot of thoseentrepreneurs too, and that's a
really promising and powerfulpath to learn a ton and have an
impact, or fail beautifully andlearn a lot and move into the
next chapter.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, jason, I'm confronting the fact.
You are challenging, not byyour words but by your deeds,
the stereotypes that seem toaffect those in the energy
industry.
You are an environmentalist,but you're actively engaged in
seeing a pathway for theprevalent forms of energy in our
lives in a positive and highlyeducated sense.
(27:01):
But I meet all kinds of peoplejust like you in my work, I mean
that's great.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I think, yeah, there's a lot of really
interesting things happening atthis moment.
Technologies evolve, the needsare greater than they've ever
been.
The challenge is actually justto be able to kind of sift from
all the noise that's out thereto find a way to something that
you feel passionate about andwhere you can actually have some
(27:29):
leverage on a solution.
I'm very fortunate to have beenhanded this beautiful lever by
the founder and then the mostrecent CEO, and we have an
amazing team and a potential tohave tremendous impact in a very
positive way that I thinkaligns with a lot of the
national interest in Canadaaround being a globally
(27:53):
significant exporter of energyto the world in a responsible
way.
So, anyway, I feel like there'ssome really wonderful
opportunities that anybody willhave in their career if they're
open to them in this space.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Well, I think there's issues there.
I was in Toronto recently.
I heard from one of the, Iguess, deans from the University
of Toronto engineering program,where they have a petroleum
stream, bemoaning the fact thatit's really hard to show
students that this is a greatpath for them because there's
been a sort of stigmatization ofthat field.
(28:29):
And I've heard that fromUniversity of Calgary as well
and I think it's a kind of atrend.
And yet for those who look atthe details and meet the people
and realize that there'ssomething different going on, it
must be a little frustrating.
I mean, what's your thought on,again, the social license
issues of an industry that's soimportant when so much positive
work is being done?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
that the incentives for action were kind of running
contrary to the desire to goforward.
So, like you know, it's a real,specific example whereas you
(29:11):
know three of the folksrepresenting the oil companies,
oil and gas companies, we'reworking on a particular thing.
We're, like you know, we'regoing to do this, we're going to
demonstrate some leadership,we've got the capability this is
, round off error, one person inthe room who said you know what
my marching orders are really,to delay this by another quarter
, because every quarter I candelay this is so many X millions
(29:33):
of dollars, and that's my goalhere.
So I think the industry hasdone itself a disservice at
various points.
That's an outcome of that andthe cost of that is, you know,
when the regulatory hammer hascome down, it's come down harder
than some of the proactiveaction could have been and that
(29:53):
the impact on that sociallicense has been significant.
And now I mean, maybe thatwould have happened anyway.
You know, I think there wereopportunities that the
industries had at differentpoints to go beyond and do
better and solve problems beforethey became emergencies.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So you work with big oil and gas and some people
might say, hey, jason, you'reworking with the bad guys.
How do you call yourself anenvironmentalist?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You know I had really amazing privilege to work with
the founders of the CleanResource Innovation Network,
which was an effort within theoil and gas sector to try and
mobilize capital and networksreally the professional and
personal networks of theindustry to drive innovation
(30:41):
within the sector.
You know, at the time I wasrunning the industry association
for clean tech startups inAlberta and the oil and gas
sector is the biggest investorin clean tech startups and in
technology generally withinCanada, has a real productivity
challenge, of course, as so muchof Canadian industry does Not
(31:03):
great at doing innovationin-house, for good reason slow
capital turnover, risk aversefor a variety of reasons,
including there's a lot of risksin oil and gas that don't
affect a company in tech, forexample.
So try to figure that out andto be an engine for innovation
(31:25):
and to kind of raise the waterlevel for innovation generally
across Canada.
I think Crenn's been a hugesuccess.
There are so many startups nowin Alberta.
There's a huge flow of capitalinto Alberta-based tech ventures
and there is so much evidenceof the success of those startups
(31:45):
domestically and globallyCompanies like Summit Nanotech
and Carbon Engineering, whichwas born at UC, A poor of Sina's
Carbon Upcycling, which hasjust closed a really huge round.
It's not for nothing that a lotof the world is beating its
doors to Alberta for thetechnology developers and the
(32:08):
solutions that we're seeingemerge in that landscape.
And that's grounded in the factthat not entirely without some
kicking and screaming the oiland gas sector has been a huge
engine for that kind ofinnovation and, frankly, has
done that on environmenthistorically as well.
(32:28):
So I feel very comfortabletrying to kind of lean in at the
margin and shift outcomes,because I think that the
potential for large impactthrough engagement with the oil
and gas sector, not just inCanada but in the US as well and
globally, is huge.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Do you see yourself as in the middle of that, or do
you see yourself as sort of oneside pushing to find equilibrium
?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I mean, that's fascinating, and where you sit
is where you stand, and we'reback where we started.
Stuart, I don't know where theindustry is right now.
It's going through agenerational shift too.
The political tide has moved inone direction, I think,
generationally, though the nextgeneration is very concerned
(33:15):
about these issues and will livein it in a way that you and I,
maybe we won't see the full, thefull outcomes of, of the, the,
the kind of policy fights thatare going to be fought over the
next 10 or 20 years.
So I I you know to be, to befrank, I don't know where I am,
but I know, I know that I'm, I'mpushing in in the direction of
(33:36):
doing more and doing better.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Well, I think we need more of that.
And you know, when you come toenergy, we haven't really talked
about the renewables component,and I'm talking about oil and
gas versus renewables or withrenewables.
I'm an and more guy.
I think you know we're justusing more energy.
Let's make it all good, butwhere do you come in on this?
(33:59):
On this, I guess you could callit energy transition.
Is there a transition?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You know I love this.
In 2017, I think, when I was atthe Peminent Institute, we did
a study looking at renewablesand oil and gas, and what we
found at the time was that thelargest buyer of solar panels in
Western Canada at the time wasthe oil and gas sector.
Largest buyer of solar panelsin Western Canada at the time
was the oil and gas sector, andthe application was remote power
(34:26):
, for you know, the wells andcompressor stations and SCADA
systems were sort of far fromroads and people.
Of course, the industry hasmoved on and I think there has
been some waves of investment byoil and gas in renewables and
then stepped away from it.
We are in the middle of atransition.
(34:47):
We shouldn't kid ourselves thatthe power mix that we have
today is going to be the powermix that we have in 20 years or
50 years.
It's going to be a complicatedtransition, though, and, I think
, very diverse in how it playsout, and I'll give one very
concrete example.
I was in Colombia recently forour work.
(35:09):
We work globally.
Colombia is a complicated placefor a variety of reasons, but
they have tremendous renewablespotential and they're very
hybrid dependent country, butthey also import LNG and they
are going through a sort ofhistoric drought in the Andes
region which has massivelyaffected their hydro capacity,
(35:31):
and so if it wasn't for naturalgas, they would have been in
incredibly deep trouble.
Fortunately, with natural gas,they're able to balance out
their power system, but they'restill going through power cuts
and blackouts at differentpoints, and I think what we need
to offer so the world is set asa target that we're going to
get to tripling renewablescapacity by 2030.
(35:53):
I think that's going to be hardand again it's going to come
down to social license in a lotof respects that.
Are you going to be able tobuild all of these wind farms
and solar farms and offshorewind platforms as quickly as you
think, and can you mobilize thecapital in a world where
interest rates have been a lothigher than they were when
(36:14):
things were a lot easier?
So it's challenging.
We're going to go through somecomplexity, but, I'd say,
directionally.
We know where the world isheaded and, as EO, we've taken
the position that it's importantthat wind and solar projects be
held to the same standards asoil and gas projects are in our
system, and so we've launchedstandards for wind and solar
(36:39):
projects as well.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Recently we've been hearing a lot about data farms
and AI and their huge demand forenergy, and a lot of that seems
to be served up that demand.
New things have come up andAlberta is saying hey, we're
going to be a major player bymaking investments in AI, so
that's going to mean using moreprobably natural gas Hopefully
it's equitable origin naturalgas.
But where is this headed?
(37:05):
Is it just way, way more energybeing used in future?
And can all of that becertified?
Is there enough certificationmuscle to go around?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Data centers are a big and emerging demand source.
I think that's true.
I think speculation right nowbased on DeepSeek and Chinese AI
is maybe the most I don't know,call it optimistic view of
natural gas use increase as aresult of the AI centers is
(37:39):
maybe not as as high as as youknow, as all get out that uh,
they're going to find moreefficient ways to to deliver the
compute.
Um, and then we get to thequestion of well, if, if compute
is cheaper, maybe people use itmore.
Maybe they will use it, as youand I did, clearly, stuart, in
finding out our wardrobes fortoday's call and not just for
(38:00):
higher end uh applications,where you're, you know, you know
, getting it to write nurserystories for your, for your kids,
so you can read it to them atbedtime, or you know, and, and
to be honest, we're, we're usingAI more and more in our own
workplace in terms of automatingfunctions, creating meeting
minutes and all that.
I mean it's, it's more and moreubiquitous.
So demand, demand is going tocontinue to increase for sure.
(38:23):
Can we certify it all?
I think no.
I think there's going to be adifferentiation in the market,
like there is in every market,but regulation will tend to
follow, and so if you raise theceiling, then presumably
eventually the floor will riseas well, and I promise you we'll
keep raising the ceiling overtime, because our producers
(38:47):
companies like ARK and Vermilion, petronas and others are
actually continually coming backto us welcoming evolution and
update.
Social expectations go up,never down, so I feel there's no
doubt that we'll continue tosee an evolution and a
differentiation in the market.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Jason, if you could put up a billboard anywhere,
what would it say?
Speaker 2 (39:13):
One of my favorite periods in life was living in
Washington briefly while Obamawas president, so I guess hope.
Thanks, jason, I've reallyenjoyed our time hearing all
about equitable origin.
Thank you so much for this,stuart guess hope.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thanks, jason.
I've really enjoyed our timehearing all about equitable
origin.
Thank you so much for this,stuart.
This was a lot of fun.
This has been Power Struggle.
Please share, like, subscribewherever and however you are
listening to this or watching.
Thank you.
So you work with big oil and gas, and some people
might say, hey, Jason, you'reworking with the bad guys.
How do you call yourself anenvironmentalist?
Do you see yourself as in themiddle of that?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I mean that's fascinating, and where you sit
is where you stand, and we'reback where we started.
Stuart, I don't know where theindustry is right now.
It's going through agenerational shift too.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm Stuart Muir and welcome to Power Struggle.
Today I'm joined by JasonSwitzer, a longtime leader and
innovator in Canada's energytransition.
Jason recently joined EquitableOrigin, where he's driving ESG
innovation and empoweringIndigenous communities to hold
resource developers accountable.
Previously, he led Carbon Next,accelerating next-generation
carbon capture and utilizationtechnologies, and he played
(00:59):
pivotal roles at Foresight, thePembina Institute, synovus and
Shell Canada.
Jason's deeply involved inCanada's clean tech ecosystem
and he holds degrees from MIT inenvironmental engineering and
public policy.
He's also a Harvard-trainedmediator and recipient of the
prestigious Clean 50 Award.
Jason, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Stuart, it's great to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It sure is to have you here, Jason.
To start off, I mentionedEquitable Origin.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, so Equitable Origin has an amazing origin
story of its own.
It is the world's first andmost comprehensive environmental
and social performance standardfor energy projects.
We've been growing for manyyears now.
Today, about 15% of US andCanadian natural gas is
(01:46):
certified under our system,which shares DNA with the Forest
Stewardship Councilcertification and many of the
other global commodity chaincertifications that your
listeners are probably familiarwith.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Now everyone's familiar with going to the store
.
You get a light bulb or atoaster and you look on the
bottom and there's a littlestamp of approval from certain
authorities.
Is it a little bit like that,but for industry?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, very much so.
It's focused at the projectlevel.
Business and human rights werereally at the origin of the
establishment of the system thatwe synthesize.
(02:31):
Many of the global benchmarksand good business practices that
would be obliged by an oil andgas producer at the side level
include as well good practicearound corporate governance,
responsible business practices,fair labor practices, indigenous
rights and demonstration offree, prior and informed consent
.
And then annually, a project,because we don't provide
assurance for the whole company.
It's specific to the individualenergy project.
(02:54):
Annually they have to beaudited and demonstrate
compliance against the 500 or sobenchmarks that are in our
system.
And so if you get a stamp ofapproval, as you said, from EO,
what it really is is a scoreagainst those 500 indicators
provided by a third party that'sbeen accredited.
You know, just like you wouldget an accountant in to do your
(03:14):
finances and they would tell youat the end of the year hey,
accounting practice, this is agood statement of accounts.
Similarly, you get a goodstatement of accounts against
these environmental and socialperformance benchmarks that says
that you're doing well againstthem and that allows you to put
that gas on the market withthose environmental and social
(03:36):
performance attributes.
And hopefully Stuart saw him ata bit of a premium.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How would you break it down for the average person?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
The easiest way to think about it is hey, there's
this set of 500 or so thingsthat you've got to demonstrate
you're doing well against to geta stamp of approval under our
system.
And so if you want to do theeffort to get our seal of
approval, it requires a wholelot of work to put the evidence
together and then have somebodywho's similar to an accountant,
(04:06):
who looks at your books at theend of the year, who will tell
you how you're doing againstthat and give you a score, and
that's how you get our seal ofapproval.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay.
Well, this is where it getsinteresting, I think, because
everyone uses energy, and thatincludes the energy that your
equitable origin brand appearson.
So everyone really has, whetherthey know it or not, a stake in
this.
And I'm going to guess that notevery kind of energy or every
energy product that people mightconsume might put in their gas
(04:37):
tank.
Or maybe they're flying toThailand to have a vacation.
Is that jet fuel in the planethat's carrying them there and
home?
Is it certified?
Is the gas when they're heatingtheir home in winter?
Is that certified?
How do you know?
What difference does it makewhether it's certified or not?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, that's going to be a tough thing to answer
concisely at any barbecue,stuart, so let me try and break
that into a few different pieces.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
We've gone to the cigars and brandy stage.
It's 2 in the morning, let's goto cigars.
Let's go to cigars.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
What does it actually mean and who actually is using
it?
So why don't we take the who'sactually using it first?
So a lot of large gas usersreally care about where their
gas comes from probably more sonow than ever before Like an
industrial customer, natural gasright and, to be clear, the
(05:31):
buyers are buyers who have astake in this right.
So one big buyer of ourcertified gas is a utility in
Quebec called Energier.
They're the largest natural gasutility in BC.
It would be Fortis in Alberta,maybe Enbridge, but essentially
(05:52):
it's your large gas utilitythat's distributing gas and you
want to say, hey, I'd like tomake sure that my gas comes from
Canada and that it meets a setof environmental obligations
that are more than just what'srequired by regulation but
actually demonstrate leadershipacross all the different aspects
of that environmentalperformance and also that
(06:12):
indigenous peoples' rightsholders across, in particular,
british Columbia and Alberta,which is where a lot of Canada's
gas comes from, that thoseright holders are fairly
compensated and even are fullyequity participants in the gas
that's being produced.
And that's what makes the gasthat's certified under our
(06:35):
system unique in that it's gotto meet all these different
tests to demonstrate that itmeets those different
obligations and so yeah, soEnergear is sourcing today
probably about 40% of the gasthat they distribute to
residents and industrial usersof gas in Quebec, and their
(06:55):
commitment is to achieve 100%sourcing of EO certified gas by
2030.
So that's a pretty significantcommitment.
There are similar commitmentsby other utilities as well as
large energy providers for datacenters and other users of
energy who care where the gascomes from.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
So I'm in Quebec, I'm with Energier buying the gas
and the company says, yeah, thishas got the equitable origin
stamp of approval, so I'm goingto be able to tell my customers
that they're getting gas that isdescribed a certain way.
I presume that means it's gotsome positive attributes.
(07:36):
What would the positiveattributes be that a customer
like that would be able to sayto their customers?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah for sure.
So you know.
Number one, I think right nowthe world is very focused on,
you know, greenhouse gasemissions and methane abatement
in particular.
You know there's a lot ofmethane that gets released in
the course of producing naturalgas.
A big concern when you'rethinking about when you burn
natural gas to make energy ishow much methane was lost to the
(08:04):
atmosphere.
That has a very big impact onglobal warming.
It's a very powerful carbonforcer, climate forcing gas, and
so the goal of a gas buyer isto try and reduce those
emissions as much as they can,to drive higher expectations
upstream to the gas producer andto get from that a lower carbon
(08:27):
product at the other end, andthen a lot of those downstream
buyers just like you and I careabout.
Right now in particular, itmakes a difference if you're
buying apples that come from BCor from Washington State.
It makes a difference where thegas is coming from.
Is it coming from some of thereally highly regulated and then
(08:48):
independently audited gasproducers in Northeastern BC and
Central Alberta, or is itcoming from elsewhere maybe
south of the border if you're inQuebec which might not be held
to the same standards as the gasthat's coming from BC or
Alberta.
So that's what certificationhelps level out Whether the gas,
whether the molecules arecoming from the US or Canada,
(09:09):
they're being held to a commonstandard that's very high,
higher than what they'rerequired under any law.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
And is this standard an international one?
Is say if Quebec is getting gas.
You mentioned the United Statesfrom some of the like
Pennsylvania, where they have alot of gas.
Maybe they're getting hyped upthere.
So do they use this system ofapproval?
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, so actually Canada only represents about 20%
of the gas that's certifiedunder our system.
About 80% comes from the US,and in particular from the
Northeastern US, although wehave a lot of production as well
that's meeting our standardsfrom Texas too.
So I think in Western Canadathere's the perception that
(09:51):
Canadian gas is the best in theworld, and I think that's
probably mostly true in mostcases, that it's not a huge
extra step to meet theobligations that are under our
system if you're producing inWestern Canada.
But the reality is that a lotof producers are meeting those
same standards south of theborder as well.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Just curious about one thing.
You mentioned two terms, onemethane, the other natural gas.
You use them notinterchangeably and a lot of
time when I hear them used, theyare, it seems like synonymous
is the sense you get.
But you are drawing adistinction in how you view
what's the difference betweennatural gas and methane?
Jason, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I mean, it's really a term of art.
They are the same thing in theend.
But methane I'm reallyreferring to upstream methane
emissions.
So when you're producing gasand you know, from wellhead
until it gets to the birder tip,all of the methane that's lost
along the way, all the naturalgas that leaks out and goes to
the atmosphere, would be whatI'm referring to with you know,
(10:53):
air quotes, methane, you know.
So that's methane that a lot ofoperators are now working very
hard to reduce, and so there's anumber of different
technologies that are beingrolled out to reduce that slip,
investments being made in thingslike detection and prevention,
really, and just good managementto avoid losses of gas at each
(11:15):
step in the pathway from the gasfrom that wellhead till it gets
to the burner tip in yourkitchen.
It gets to the burner tip inyour kitchen.
Ultimately it's the same thingand methane is natural gas and
natural gas is methane.
But to make it easier to talkabout it's easier and maybe for
the purposes of our conversation, if I say methane, I'm
referring to methane emissionsinto the atmosphere that cause
(11:37):
or contribute to global warming,and natural gas is the product
that you use to make energy andother things that the world
needs.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
You know this may be a rabbit hole but nevertheless a
fascinating one.
Just to stay on that topic,sometimes you'll hear those who
are advocating strongly for anabsolute departure from the use
of fossil fuels will say oh,stop using that term natural gas
, it's just industry marketingto make it sound like it's
natural yogurt or something.
Do you think that there aredefinitional confusions or
(12:09):
controversies, that it wouldhelp if there was better public
understanding?
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I mean I think you're playing a really important role
in creating space forengagement.
Right, this is an opportunityfor deeper understanding and
education of the public aroundsome of the debates that are
underway and, hopefully, interms that people can understand
, right, I don't think everybodywants a deep dive on the
(12:33):
details.
I think people really wantenergy services.
I think we care about gettingfrom point A to point B.
We care about whether our homesare reliably heated in the
winter and cool in the summers,and so on, and that you know, in
the end, that desire to justflip on the switch which is
totally right, is verychallenging.
(12:56):
Right, there's a ton, billionsand billions of dollars invested
every year to deliver thoseenergy services in North America
and Europe, you, europe, aroundthe world, asia, latin America,
africa as well.
We're very privileged to havethe ability to just flip the
switch and have the expectationthat we'll have that energy, but
, of course, things are muchmore complicated and becoming
(13:19):
more complicated, and so, yeah,I think having a deeper
understanding is critical.
I think these are deeperunderstanding is critical.
I think you know these are alsoloaded debates because I think
we all bring to them our, ourpositions.
You know, I had a professor whosaid you know where you sit is
where you stand and that it'sreally hard to get somebody
whose check depends on certainthings to happen to to speak
(13:41):
their mind in a way that that istruly honest.
Um, but I think you know theimportant goal that we got to
keep their mind in a way that istruly honest.
But I think the important goalthat we got to keep in mind here
is that we all want thoseservices, that we want them to
be reliable, that the worldneeds and is reliant on a
certain percentage of fossilfuels in every scenario of
(14:04):
climate mitigation we have, andthat, in this difficult
transition that we're in,finding a path that makes sense,
that we can kind of deal withboth economically and
politically, is really critical.
I'm very inspired by thefounder of my little
organization.
The founder of Equitable Originwas a young kid in his teens in
(14:26):
the US, by dint of a series ofcoincidences, ended up getting
involved through a socialstudies project when he was in
junior high, on the flight of aparticular indigenous group in
the Amazon who was fighting atthat time with an oil company,
texaco, over impacts that thatdevelopment was having on their
(14:46):
traditional lives andlivelihoods in the Amazon.
So you know, a kind ofcautionary story because of
levels of violence, thepollution on the ground.
A very complicated project aswell, because it's really hard
to unpack what responsibilitiesthe company had and what
responsibilities the governmenthad.
But you know, so this youngperson, as a teenager, got
(15:09):
really interested.
His teacher was related to oneof the lawyers who was active on
behalf of this indigenous group, and so he ended up convincing
his parents who knows how to geton a plane and go down and
spend some time traveling andgetting to know the community
and actually again sort of me,to we style.
(15:29):
By the time he was 15, he'dfounded a charity that was
bringing shoes to schoolchildren, pens and other things,
and as a 19-year-old he, in oneof the courses that he was
taking in university, actuallytalked one of the co-founders of
the Forest Stewardship Councilinto working with him to develop
a certification.
He's like look, we certifybananas, we certify coffee.
(15:52):
Why can't we use certificationto help these people find a path
?
Not everyone is against oil andgas development.
They're just against the kindof oil and gas development that
does harm to their communitiesand one in which they don't have
a voice or a share in thebenefits.
He's truly an optimist in thepotential for oil and gas
(16:14):
development to do good and arecognition that it would happen
, because the world needs energyanyway, that there was an
imperative to try and create amarket-based mechanism that
would incent leadership andreward it and allow the people
who are trying to do better tobe able to whether it's just a
pat on the back or actuallysomeone who's willing to pay a
(16:35):
little bit more for thatmolecule or electron to create a
mechanism for that to happen.
And I think that's the futureright.
That's a kind of optimism thatwell, it's a cautious optimism
in that it says, hey look,there's this difficult kind of
path that we have to navigateand that we can do better at it
(16:56):
and that we need to figure outcollectively how to do better at
it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
We're coming into a phase of history, it would seem,
at least the last.
Is it 100 days that have shownus that assumptions about how
the world will unfold are allwrong or turning out differently
, and one of the things is thatESG in particular has been under
attack, and whether or not someof the finance world agrees or
(17:26):
disagrees with whether ESGshould be embedded in their
world, they are needing to showthe White House that they are
not involved in ESG anymore.
That's my read of it, Jason.
What's your thoughts on thisissue?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah for sure.
I think you know I've heardthis expressed a few different
ways that the era of environmentfor environment's sake is over,
or that you know there was awhole lot of virtue signaling
that was being done around a lotof these issues, whether it was
inclusion and diversity in theworkplace, or aspirations around
getting to net zero on aparticular timeline and so on,
(18:05):
or aspirations around getting tonet zero on a particular
timeline and so on.
I guess I have two answers, andhaving listened to a few of the
pods that you've postedrecently, stuart, I have a sense
of some divergence ofperspectives as well amongst
some of the people that you'vehad.
I think, looking at the longarc of history, certain things
are hard to ignore.
If you were in the Soviet Unionbefore communism fell, the only
(18:32):
area that people were reallyable to protest was
environmental, because it was soobvious that the environment
was going downhill and that ithad to be addressed.
I think there's an expectationbuilding in the markets that's
driven in part by insurancecompanies and by financial
modeling, that we're coming intoan era of profound risk
(18:56):
associated with just theevolution of temperature on this
planet, and so I think that'sdriving certain behaviors that,
by definition, have to go beyondpolitical cycles.
And I guess answer number two isthings change.
We've been through this before.
I've worked in this space whenit was called corporate social
(19:17):
responsibility and again whenyou said, hey, we're doing these
things because it's the rightthing to do, then the minute
it's no longer the right thingto do, because it doesn't fit
the bottom line, it's gone.
So I think, no matter what,you've got to be very focused,
rigorously focused, on theeconomics of this stuff, and so
I think the things that makesense economically are going to
(19:38):
win over time.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Well, I'm glad you point to past experience as a
way to inform understandingwhere we might go.
You mentioned CSR.
Of course you mean corporatesocial responsibility.
That was a trio of letters thatused to appear in profusion in
corporate documents and in anydiscussion of what I don't know.
Do we call it social licenseanymore?
(20:02):
The issues of social license?
I think that term is understood, at least Did anything come
before that?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
The CSR probably goes back to what the 80s I mean you
know these things have beencycling for a while.
I was very fortunate when Iwent to.
You know, I did my undergradactually in Montreal, at McGill,
and I studied how to buildlarge dams, large dams.
It was a very interesting timein which at school I was
learning how to build large dams, concrete hydrology and what
(20:30):
happens when you put a wall in ariver and how that affects
upstream fisheries generally agood thing and allowed you to do
flood control and otherdownstream things while you were
making power all reallypositive things.
So in class I only heard aboutthe good things that you could
do with hydro.
I mean it was an ironic momenttoo, because at the same time
(20:52):
First Nations in Northern Quebecwere protesting construction of
dams by Hydro Quebec and weremounting large-scale protests in
downtown.
So it was sort of two differentworlds downtown.
So it was sort of two differentworlds and it wasn't until, as
(21:12):
a new, relatively freshly minteduniversity graduate, I guess, I
went to work for the WorldCommission on Dams, which was an
effort to try and square thecircle, to kind of navigate
between the massive proteststhat were facing dam building at
the time and the efforts by anumber of countries, the World
Bank and some large financialinstitutions to essentially say,
hey look, no, dams cansometimes be really good, and we
(21:35):
have lots of examples of gooddams.
So you know, how do we find apath?
There's got to be some way totake this technology, which
isn't inherently good or bad,and do it better, and so that
was an example of where peopletried to find a better way.
It was chaired by it was 2000,let's remember it was chaired by
(21:55):
the former minister of waterfor South Africa, who had spent
time in Robben Island and thiswas In prison, had spent time in
Robben Island, and this wasjust at the end of Mandela's
time and recognizing that SouthAfrica is very dependent on
hydro for its power needs, thatcountries need these tools as a
(22:17):
pathway to development and thatthere must be a better way to do
things.
Things you realize prettyquickly is environmental
problems are basically financial, that if we wanted to solve
these things we could.
It's just a question of whetherwe can afford the check.
Social license is reallycomplicated and there may be
situations in which no size ofcheck is going to be sufficient
(22:43):
to deal or to overcome publicopposition or social opposition
to a particular project, andthat's really informed a lot of
the work that I've done eversince that you can manage the
environmental issues.
But ultimately trying tonavigate the questions of who
bears the risk and who has aright to have a voice in
(23:06):
decision making and who gets astake in the benefits is really
complicated and hard to navigate.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
From that training do you see social license as a
local thing?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't actually.
I mean local is very important,but it's complicated because so
many.
It's complicated because somany actors are involved in
(23:38):
every one thing.
You know, as you understand,large-scale project finance is
just the number of differentfinancial intermediaries and
complicated relationships areinvolved in every big decision.
And then the role of governmentand the different levels of
government.
In every country, whether it'sCanada or Niger, there are a lot
of different levels ofgovernment that get involved in
every big decision, for good andfor bad.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Your journey has taken you into, say, the
practical, solutions-orientedend of the environmental
movement.
What did you learn in that?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
There's so many interesting things to say about
that.
I've been fortunate to be ableto work both in oil and gas and
then with advocacy organizationsand think tanks working, you
could say, on the other side ofit.
What's so clear is that thereare like-minded people involved
in all sides of thesediscussions and that we've been
(24:22):
polarizing these thingsprogressively over time, but
that there's an incredible needfor people who otherwise don't
talk to each other to talk toeach other, to kind of get
(24:45):
together in a room and try andfigure out how to navigate a
path that that, you know, noone's going to be entirely happy
with, but that allows forresponsible decisions to be made
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
You uh, you look like you are a dad age, jason.
I don't know if you uh uhinteract with young people who
are planning their careers ever.
Do you ever get intoconversations about how
opportunities to build a careerlike yours could be started in
2025?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I mean, I think every day is so fascinating right now
.
There's so much change going on.
There's so much opportunity.
You must get this too, stuart.
I think what's changed the mostright now is the fact that you
know, when I was wanting to getinvolved in this stuff in
university, you could go andwork for an environmental
organization like a PeminaInstitute or a WWF or Greenpeace
(25:35):
.
You could go and try and get ajob in a large company, an oil
company.
Oil and gas had always hadinteresting roles in this space
and, frankly, I've been a realpioneer in a lot of the stuff
that we see globally in thisspace.
Those were kind of the auctionsand maybe you'd find work in a
(25:59):
UN organization or somethinglike that.
That was part of my journey andit was a really great part of
it.
But now, if you want to dosomething, you can start a
company.
That was just not even on theradar, but the smart kids are
taking the research that they'redoing in university and they're
spinning it into theseincredible tech plays, and I've
(26:21):
been very fortunate to work withand support and be a
cheerleader for a lot of thoseentrepreneurs too, and that's a
really promising and powerfulpath to learn a ton and have an
impact, or fail beautifully andlearn a lot and move into the
next chapter.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, jason, I'm confronting the fact.
You are challenging, not byyour words but by your deeds,
the stereotypes that seem toaffect those in the energy
industry.
You are an environmentalist,but you're actively engaged in
seeing a pathway for theprevalent forms of energy in our
lives in a positive and highlyeducated sense.
(27:01):
But I meet all kinds of peoplejust like you in my work, I mean
that's great.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I think, yeah, there's a lot of really
interesting things happening atthis moment.
Technologies evolve, the needsare greater than they've ever
been.
The challenge is actually justto be able to kind of sift from
all the noise that's out thereto find a way to something that
you feel passionate about andwhere you can actually have some
(27:29):
leverage on a solution.
I'm very fortunate to have beenhanded this beautiful lever by
the founder and then the mostrecent CEO, and we have an
amazing team and a potential tohave tremendous impact in a very
positive way that I thinkaligns with a lot of the
national interest in Canadaaround being a globally
(27:53):
significant exporter of energyto the world in a responsible
way.
So, anyway, I feel like there'ssome really wonderful
opportunities that anybody willhave in their career if they're
open to them in this space.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Well, I think there's issues there.
I was in Toronto recently.
I heard from one of the, Iguess, deans from the University
of Toronto engineering program,where they have a petroleum
stream, bemoaning the fact thatit's really hard to show
students that this is a greatpath for them because there's
been a sort of stigmatization ofthat field.
(28:29):
And I've heard that fromUniversity of Calgary as well
and I think it's a kind of atrend.
And yet for those who look atthe details and meet the people
and realize that there'ssomething different going on, it
must be a little frustrating.
I mean, what's your thought on,again, the social license
issues of an industry that's soimportant when so much positive
work is being done?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
that the incentives for action were kind of running
contrary to the desire to goforward.
So, like you know, it's a real,specific example whereas you
(29:11):
know three of the folksrepresenting the oil companies,
oil and gas companies, we'reworking on a particular thing.
We're, like you know, we'regoing to do this, we're going to
demonstrate some leadership,we've got the capability this is
, round off error, one person inthe room who said you know what
my marching orders are really,to delay this by another quarter
, because every quarter I candelay this is so many X millions
(29:33):
of dollars, and that's my goalhere.
So I think the industry hasdone itself a disservice at
various points.
That's an outcome of that andthe cost of that is, you know,
when the regulatory hammer hascome down, it's come down harder
than some of the proactiveaction could have been and that
(29:53):
the impact on that sociallicense has been significant.
And now I mean, maybe thatwould have happened anyway.
You know, I think there wereopportunities that the
industries had at differentpoints to go beyond and do
better and solve problems beforethey became emergencies.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
So you work with big oil and gas and some people
might say, hey, jason, you'reworking with the bad guys.
How do you call yourself anenvironmentalist?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You know I had really amazing privilege to work with
the founders of the CleanResource Innovation Network,
which was an effort within theoil and gas sector to try and
mobilize capital and networksreally the professional and
personal networks of theindustry to drive innovation
(30:41):
within the sector.
You know, at the time I wasrunning the industry association
for clean tech startups inAlberta and the oil and gas
sector is the biggest investorin clean tech startups and in
technology generally withinCanada, has a real productivity
challenge, of course, as so muchof Canadian industry does Not
(31:03):
great at doing innovationin-house, for good reason slow
capital turnover, risk aversefor a variety of reasons,
including there's a lot of risksin oil and gas that don't
affect a company in tech, forexample.
So try to figure that out andto be an engine for innovation
(31:25):
and to kind of raise the waterlevel for innovation generally
across Canada.
I think Crenn's been a hugesuccess.
There are so many startups nowin Alberta.
There's a huge flow of capitalinto Alberta-based tech ventures
and there is so much evidenceof the success of those startups
(31:45):
domestically and globallyCompanies like Summit Nanotech
and Carbon Engineering, whichwas born at UC, A poor of Sina's
Carbon Upcycling, which hasjust closed a really huge round.
It's not for nothing that a lotof the world is beating its
doors to Alberta for thetechnology developers and the
(32:08):
solutions that we're seeingemerge in that landscape.
And that's grounded in the factthat not entirely without some
kicking and screaming the oiland gas sector has been a huge
engine for that kind ofinnovation and, frankly, has
done that on environmenthistorically as well.
(32:28):
So I feel very comfortabletrying to kind of lean in at the
margin and shift outcomes,because I think that the
potential for large impactthrough engagement with the oil
and gas sector, not just inCanada but in the US as well and
globally, is huge.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Do you see yourself as in the middle of that, or do
you see yourself as sort of oneside pushing to find equilibrium
?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I mean, that's fascinating, and where you sit
is where you stand, and we'reback where we started.
Stuart, I don't know where theindustry is right now.
It's going through agenerational shift too.
The political tide has moved inone direction, I think,
generationally, though the nextgeneration is very concerned
(33:15):
about these issues and will livein it in a way that you and I,
maybe we won't see the full, thefull outcomes of, of the, the,
the kind of policy fights thatare going to be fought over the
next 10 or 20 years.
So I I you know to be, to befrank, I don't know where I am,
but I know, I know that I'm, I'mpushing in in the direction of
(33:36):
doing more and doing better.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Well, I think we need more of that.
And you know, when you come toenergy, we haven't really talked
about the renewables component,and I'm talking about oil and
gas versus renewables or withrenewables.
I'm an and more guy.
I think you know we're justusing more energy.
Let's make it all good, butwhere do you come in on this?
(33:59):
On this, I guess you could callit energy transition.
Is there a transition?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You know I love this.
In 2017, I think, when I was atthe Peminent Institute, we did
a study looking at renewablesand oil and gas, and what we
found at the time was that thelargest buyer of solar panels in
Western Canada at the time wasthe oil and gas sector.
Largest buyer of solar panelsin Western Canada at the time
was the oil and gas sector, andthe application was remote power
(34:26):
, for you know, the wells andcompressor stations and SCADA
systems were sort of far fromroads and people.
Of course, the industry hasmoved on and I think there has
been some waves of investment byoil and gas in renewables and
then stepped away from it.
We are in the middle of atransition.
(34:47):
We shouldn't kid ourselves thatthe power mix that we have
today is going to be the powermix that we have in 20 years or
50 years.
It's going to be a complicatedtransition, though, and, I think
, very diverse in how it playsout, and I'll give one very
concrete example.
I was in Colombia recently forour work.
(35:09):
We work globally.
Colombia is a complicated placefor a variety of reasons, but
they have tremendous renewablespotential and they're very
hybrid dependent country, butthey also import LNG and they
are going through a sort ofhistoric drought in the Andes
region which has massivelyaffected their hydro capacity,
(35:31):
and so if it wasn't for naturalgas, they would have been in
incredibly deep trouble.
Fortunately, with natural gas,they're able to balance out
their power system, but they'restill going through power cuts
and blackouts at differentpoints, and I think what we need
to offer so the world is set asa target that we're going to
get to tripling renewablescapacity by 2030.
(35:53):
I think that's going to be hardand again it's going to come
down to social license in a lotof respects that.
Are you going to be able tobuild all of these wind farms
and solar farms and offshorewind platforms as quickly as you
think, and can you mobilize thecapital in a world where
interest rates have been a lothigher than they were when
(36:14):
things were a lot easier?
So it's challenging.
We're going to go through somecomplexity, but, I'd say,
directionally.
We know where the world isheaded and, as EO, we've taken
the position that it's importantthat wind and solar projects be
held to the same standards asoil and gas projects are in our
system, and so we've launchedstandards for wind and solar
(36:39):
projects as well.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Recently we've been hearing a lot about data farms
and AI and their huge demand forenergy, and a lot of that seems
to be served up that demand.
New things have come up andAlberta is saying hey, we're
going to be a major player bymaking investments in AI, so
that's going to mean using moreprobably natural gas Hopefully
it's equitable origin naturalgas.
But where is this headed?
(37:05):
Is it just way, way more energybeing used in future?
And can all of that becertified?
Is there enough certificationmuscle to go around?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Data centers are a big and emerging demand source.
I think that's true.
I think speculation right nowbased on DeepSeek and Chinese AI
is maybe the most I don't know,call it optimistic view of
natural gas use increase as aresult of the AI centers is
(37:39):
maybe not as as high as as youknow, as all get out that uh,
they're going to find moreefficient ways to to deliver the
compute.
Um, and then we get to thequestion of well, if, if compute
is cheaper, maybe people use itmore.
Maybe they will use it, as youand I did, clearly, stuart, in
finding out our wardrobes fortoday's call and not just for
(38:00):
higher end uh applications,where you're, you know, you know
, getting it to write nurserystories for your, for your kids,
so you can read it to them atbedtime, or you know, and, and
to be honest, we're, we're usingAI more and more in our own
workplace in terms of automatingfunctions, creating meeting
minutes and all that.
I mean it's, it's more and moreubiquitous.
So demand, demand is going tocontinue to increase for sure.
(38:23):
Can we certify it all?
I think no.
I think there's going to be adifferentiation in the market,
like there is in every market,but regulation will tend to
follow, and so if you raise theceiling, then presumably
eventually the floor will riseas well, and I promise you we'll
keep raising the ceiling overtime, because our producers
(38:47):
companies like ARK and Vermilion, petronas and others are
actually continually coming backto us welcoming evolution and
update.
Social expectations go up,never down, so I feel there's no
doubt that we'll continue tosee an evolution and a
differentiation in the market.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Jason, if you could put up a billboard anywhere,
what would it say?
Speaker 2 (39:13):
One of my favorite periods in life was living in
Washington briefly while Obamawas president, so I guess hope.
Thanks, jason, I've reallyenjoyed our time hearing all
about equitable origin.
Thank you so much for this,stuart guess hope.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Thanks, jason.
I've really enjoyed our timehearing all about equitable
origin.
Thank you so much for this,stuart.
This was a lot of fun.
This has been Power Struggle.
Please share, like, subscribewherever and however you are
listening to this or watching.
Thank you.
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