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June 5, 2025 54 mins

Shanna Martineau, CEO of Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation (AIOC), shares how loan guarantees are helping Indigenous communities invest in major projects and build economic prosperity. Since 2019, AIOC has facilitated investments totaling over $700 million for 43 Indigenous communities across Alberta and beyond, with the Alberta government recently increasing their loan guarantee capacity to $3 billion.

• AIOC helps overcome Indian Act restrictions that prevent Indigenous communities from holding collateral for loans
• The organization has supported investments in energy, agriculture, transportation, tourism and technology sectors
• Communities are using investment returns to address critical infrastructure needs, like the Whitefish/Goodfish Lake First Nation rebuilding its arena after 30 years
• AIOC requires a minimum $20 million investment size and maintains rigorous standards, resulting in zero defaults to date
• Indigenous participation improves project outcomes by incorporating traditional knowledge and creating shared benefits
• The model has inspired similar programs in other provinces and internationally
• Investment returns flow back to communities, generating over $25 million annually for community priorities
• Economic reconciliation means both catching up and positioning Indigenous communities for future growth opportunities

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chana Martineau (00:00):
Their arena burnt down 30 years ago.
So I want you to think aboutliving in a rural centre.
You have nowhere to participatein athletics, you have nowhere
to learn about teams, you havenowhere to learn about
leadership, your school isunderfunded and the nearest
arena is an hour away One way.
So if you are a single mother Ihave been a single mother of
two girls over my professionalcareer how do you take your

(00:21):
child to hockey, ringette, anyof the winter sports that
Canadians are passionate about?
And then what does that looklike as you're a teenager with
no productive outlet for yourenergies?

Stewart Muir (00:43):
If you're enjoying Power Struggle, make sure to
subscribe, like and share thisepisode.
It helps us bring fact-basedenergy conversations to more
people across Canada and beyond.
Welcome to Power Struggle.
I'm Stuart Muir.
Today we're talking with ShannaMartineau.
Shanna is the CEO of theAlberta Indigenous Opportunities

(01:03):
Corporation, or AIOC.
Aioc helps Indigenouscommunities in Alberta and
beyond invest in important areaslike natural resources,
agriculture, transportation,tourism and technology, and
since Shanna came on board asCEO, they've helped 43
Indigenous communities take partin projects worth over $700

(01:25):
million.
And because of this success,the Alberta government, which
backed AIOC, has increased theirloan guarantee capacity to $3
billion so that even morecommunities can get involved in
bigger projects.
Shanna has worked in banking andfinance for over 30 years.
She has, throughout her career,supported diversity and worked

(01:47):
to open doors for women andIndigenous people in leadership
roles, and she herself is aproud member of the Frog Lake
First Nation in Alberta.
She studied economics at theUniversity of Alberta and was
elected recently to the board ofSynovus Energy, one of our top
Canadian energy companies.

(02:08):
Shanna's work is changing howIndigenous people participate in
Canada's industries, includingthe energy industry.
If you want to understand howpower is shifting in Canada's
energy world, you need to knowabout Shanna Martineau, and here
she is.
You're going to learn about her, shanna.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you, you're going tolearn about her, shanna.
Welcome to the show.

Chana Martineau (02:27):
Thank you so much for having me, Stuart.
It's a pleasure to be here.

Stewart Muir (02:30):
It certainly is great to see your face and, you
know, I'm wondering if there wasone specific experience or
realization that made youbelieve that Indigenous
communities could fundamentallyalter the balance of power in
Canada's energy sector.

Chana Martineau (02:45):
You know, stuart, that's such an
interesting question for me and,for me, indigenous communities
have always been heavilyinvolved in the energy industry.
I grew up in an oil patchhousehold, we would say, in
Alberta, so my family's beeninvolved in the energy industry
for decades, and so when theAIOC was created and it was
announced in 2019 by JasonKenney's government who was a

(03:08):
former member of your podcast, Ibelieve in 2019, I thought yes,
this is it.
This is the impetus and theenhancer that Indigenous
communities really need to fullyparticipate in our economy.
I was so excited about theorganization that I just
couldn't let it go, and so Iended up joining the board in

(03:30):
2020, and I ended up being CEOnot too long after that.

Stewart Muir (03:35):
And you've since then been instrumental in
advancing the loan guarantee.
I mentioned the increase.
Initially, I think it was abillion dollars, but now it's
triple that.
How did that happen?

Chana Martineau (03:44):
That's a really interesting question.
You know the governor of Albertasaid to us deploy a billion
dollars in loan guarantees and Ishould explain at some point
what a loan guarantee is exactly, because it's not a common
concept and don't lose a nickel.
So really have a strong focus onquality, supporting really
strong, economically viablepartnerships to protect the loan

(04:05):
guarantee and the government ofAlberta balance sheet, and yet
deploy a billion dollars.
That's a big number, and whatwe've seen is that there is so
much demand from both theIndigenous community side to
invest, particularly in energyprojects, but others and also
from industry, so big companiesthat you've seen Indigenous
groups partner with.
You know Enbridge is an examplethat sticks out.

(04:27):
There are many others thatreally come together to make a
business better throughIndigenous partnership, and so
the government of Alberta sawthe opportunity.
They saw the economicdevelopment opportunities not
only for Indigenous communitybut for the province as a whole,
and so they increased thatlimit to $3 billion to enable

(04:47):
that transaction.
One of the most importantthings for capital markets is
certainty of access, and we werestarting to look like we were
going to run out of capital andso no one wants to embark down a
path if that loan guaranteecapacity is not available, so
that's why the increase to $3billion.

Stewart Muir (05:04):
I'd just like to provide a little more context in
this, especially for those whoaren't aware why this is needed
so much to have AIOC, and what awelcome moment in 2019 it was
when we heard this was coming.
What are the challenges thatwould be present, in your
opinion, that something likeAIOC would be so necessary and

(05:24):
then would become successful theway it is?

Chana Martineau (05:27):
So restrictions in the Indian Act so many
people don't know.
The Indian Act is still ineffect today and it is wide
ranging and all encompassing.
So First Nations cannot holdcollateral the same way that non
First Nations people can.
So, due to restrictions in theIndian Act, so I, if I live on
reserve, cannot fold collateralfor a home, a vehicle, in the

(05:49):
same way that you can living offreserve, and so that has held
back Indigenous communities fromparticipation in the economy
because they can't invest.
How do you normally invest,build a business, build your own
personal net worth through ahome, other types of investments
you borrow.
Indigenous people are held backfrom that ability.

Stewart Muir (06:10):
Now, shanna, I'm not Indigenous.
I do own a home.
If I don't pay my mortgage orsomehow fall into arrears with
the city that wants my taxes, Iknow what will happen to me.
There are those consequences.
How is it different if you'rean individual or a community
that is governed by the IndianAct you mentioned in terms of

(06:31):
property?
Can an Indian Act person I'mnot going to say Indian person,
we don't use that term FirstNations person?
How is it different?

Chana Martineau (06:41):
You legally can't hold collateral.
So if I have a home on reserve,I do not own the land attached
to it.
I cannot.
When reserves were set up, youcannot.
It's illegal to hold that land.
You cannot hold title to thatland.
You can never own a home.
Now there are varying ways,mechanisms that the Canadian

(07:04):
government has tried to workaround that and provide
opportunity, and so AIOC is oneof those large-scale
opportunities to try to workaround the restrictions in the
Indiana Act.
So it's an interesting place tobe.
We're catching up after morethan a century of being held
back, you know.
So this is a way to accelerateparticipation in the economy.

(07:26):
I think the interesting part ofthis, though, not only does it
accelerate the Indigenouscommunity participation, both
Métis First Nations and Inuit,it also helps accelerate the
business and investment and thecapital cycle.
So I like to talk about ussupporting the natural cycle of
capital, not interrupting it.
So a loan guarantee is we actas the collateral.

(07:49):
So where your home is thecollateral in your personal
mortgage and the things weinvest in are just they think of
them like giant mortgages apower plant instead of a home, a
pipeline infrastructure systeminstead of a home.
But it works very much in thesame way.
The Alberta government balancesheet then acts as the
collateral for that loan,because First Nations people and

(08:11):
Indigenous people can't holdcollateral in the same way.

Stewart Muir (08:14):
I feel as if there's something deeper and
almost societal in the changethat AIOC represents, and so I
want to dig a little deeper.
I mean, if I don't make mymortgage payments, the bank
knows what it can do.
It can come and take my houseaway, and whatever equity I may
possess in that house will be interms of the contract I have

(08:35):
with the bank.
It'll be theirs to get thatmoney back and get me out of the
house.
But if that happens withsomeone who lives under the
Indian Act and lives maybe on areservation, which would be an
Indian reservation under theterminology of the Act, correct?
Yeah, that person well, theywouldn't be able to get that
mortgage in the first placebecause the property, would you

(08:56):
say it's communally held or it'sheld in some other form.

Chana Martineau (08:59):
It's crown land .

Stewart Muir (09:00):
It's federally owned.
It's owned by.

Chana Martineau (09:02):
The government.

Stewart Muir (09:03):
Yes right.

Chana Martineau (09:04):
So it would be like you trying to take a
mortgage on something that yourented.
It's similar.

Stewart Muir (09:07):
So the bank is going to say well, I'm sorry,
I'd love to help you, but youcan't secure.
You don't have anything tosecure.

Chana Martineau (09:15):
And then the other part is your income stream
.
So I'm going to take that alittle bit further.
But your income stream, FirstNations, the funding that they
get from the federal governmentunder the current construct.
They get a certain pool forhousing, they get a certain pool
for education, and I'm not sureif this is the absolute current
stat, but as an example, aFirst Nations school gets

(09:36):
something like one third of thefunding per student that an
officer of school gets, thingslike that.
The band has no ability toreallocate those resources.
They get money for housing andthey get money for education.
So you cannot even take thosefunds and redeploy them to
business opportunities if youwant to, because their funding
is tied to specific projects.

Stewart Muir (09:57):
The band being the Indian band, which is elected
by local members of the FirstNation on that reserve in that
community.
But I just want to go a littledeeper even.
I mean, we have the Indian Act,it's 2025.
It's essentially apaternalistic way of protecting.
Quote unquote, I suppose airquotes on protecting.

Chana Martineau (10:18):
First.

Stewart Muir (10:19):
Nations from something, and it's in law.
It's very hard to change afederal law, especially one as
fundamental as this.
But it's almost as if in thefinancial terminology there is a
form.
I'm going to be provocative,I'm going to say a financial
apartheid in Canada, wherepeople are sort of kept apart
from everyone else for their owngood, supposedly.
Am I being a little too rash incharacterizing it this way?

Chana Martineau (10:46):
I try to stay out of the political realm so I
try to.
You know, I'm in a role whereI'm acting as a bridge, trying
to bridge the gap right.
So AIOC has been designed tohelp bridge the gap without
having the lengthy negotiationsthat would be involved in
renegotiating the Indian Act.
And the Alberta government hastaken renegotiating the Indian

(11:08):
Act, and the Alberta governmenthas taken this as a proactive
way in our own jurisdiction,things that the Alberta
government can control.
We have then inspired I'll callit other governments to follow
suit.
So the federal program is beinglaunched in response not only
to our program but to others.
What we're seeing as a nation,I think, is how the collective
involvement of Indigenous peoplein our economy is.
But to others, what we'reseeing as a nation, I think, is
how the collective involvementof Indigenous people in our
economy is actually anaccelerator.

(11:29):
So when we look at somethinglike the Trans Mountain Pipeline
, you know I spoke to IanAnderson, the CEO at the time,
about what it might have lookedlike if we had started with
Indigenous partnership on thatexpansion from the beginning,
and so when you're sharing inthe benefits and the risks not
just the risk side what do thoseconversations look like?

(11:53):
So I'm going to give you anexample.
Stuart, wherever you might live, I don't know where that is,
but if someone wanted to build apipeline through your backyard.
How do you feel about that?
Sorry, stuart, we're going todig up your backyard and put a
pipeline through it.

Stewart Muir (12:07):
You're just going to do it.
You're not asking me forpermission, you're just
announcing.
You're doing it, okay.

Chana Martineau (12:11):
Right.
How is that conversationdifferent if you're going to
have a share in the profits ofthat pipeline as well as the
risk?
I can see you smiling.

Stewart Muir (12:20):
Suddenly.
It just is different, isn't it?
Yeah, wait a minute, yeah.

Chana Martineau (12:28):
There's a benefit Okay, let's talk about
that a little bit more right.
And so maybe you come to thetable with collaborative
solutions and I think the energytransition is enhanced by
having Indigenous people at thetable.
We naturally think in terms ofseven generations and long-term
investments.
And so if you start with thatIndigenous partnership, not only
do you start with that morepositive footprint even just
your own reaction right in thatmoment shows me you're just

(12:49):
starting from a more positiveplace but you're also then
getting the wisdom and thebenefit of Indigenous history
and culture and view of the land.
You can head off potentialerrors or mistakes because of
traditional knowledge from timeimmemorial as you build those

(13:10):
projects together.
So how much more productivitycould we have, how much quicker
could we be to market, how muchstronger and more economically
viable can we be with Indigenouspeople together at the table
with business?

Stewart Muir (13:24):
When this idea came out, it was the first
anywhere that I'm aware of.

Chana Martineau (13:30):
Ontario had a smaller version of it and only
focused on electricaldistribution.
So I want to give credit thatthere was, but it was not quite
the same the programs.
The beauty of this, theleadership here, has been the
programs are emerging to cometogether.
Ontario has morphed theirprogram to be more like ours, be

(13:51):
more expansive, more inclusive,a higher threshold of
improvements.
Saskatchewan has launched aprogram, bc has announced a
program, the federal program isin launch and just announced
their first deal not long ago.
So you know we've had reachouts from Latin America, from
Japan, from Australia.

(14:11):
There are many countries aroundthe world that suffer the
legacy colonial issues that wedo in Canada.
We are not alone and everyoneis looking at us.

Stewart Muir (14:22):
They are looking at Alberta as a leader, but
there are other governmentsacross our country that are
taking up the mantle and we'rebeing seen as a leader globally
with respect to Indigenousparticipation in the bureaucracy
, federally, who are really wellintentioned and equipped and

(14:48):
going in the right directiondoing these things, but they're
kind of shackled by this pieceof legislation from the colonial
era and so a lot of theprogress being made is by those
individuals kind of workingthrough it.
And you know, I'm sort ofhearing that you're saying, okay
, you're bringing this bankinglens, you've got all this
training, you've got, I'm sure,colleagues and board members and
advisors who who share thatwith you, so you're bringing

(15:11):
this very practical lens toworking around this fundamental
problem that may or may not goaway in future.
So you're just saying let's geton with it.

Chana Martineau (15:19):
Basically, Right, right, absolutely.
And you know, stuart, for methis journey has been such an
interesting one because Ithought the different parts of
myself earlier in my career feltdisparate, you know.
So I'm a horse gal, you know I'ma mom, I'm an indigenous person
, I'm a finance professional,and early in my career all of

(15:42):
those things seemed separate.
But in this role, doing thiswork, it feels like the picture
has all filled in and all thedifferent parts of myself that
didn't seem congruent earlier inmy career now have come
together to make sense.
So I feel like I'm just ascomfortable in jeans and boots
on the reserve or on the back ofa horse as I am in a boardroom

(16:03):
in downtown Bay Street.
And I'm so honored andprivileged to be able to act as
a bridge and help to bring theseworlds together, to help find a
productive way through.
It takes everyone's great mindsat the table, but if I can help
, through AIOC and our team, tobring these worlds together to
find a great solution and helpother jurisdictions across the

(16:25):
country do the same, the futureis so bright to me.

Stewart Muir (16:29):
I think you've got a line on gratitude what makes
you grateful?

Chana Martineau (16:34):
Wow.
Well, you know what I've gonethrough a lot of hardships in my
life right and a lot of reallytough times.
And I'll start with what myparents went through as teen
parents in small town Alberta.
You know, I think, about aFirst Nations father and a
non-Indigenous mother with ababy in small town Alberta.

(16:55):
My mom was 17 and in grade 12,what she went through.
I think I'm fortunate that itwasn't reversed.
Maybe if I was born to a singlemother on reserve, I might have
been taken away from thatmother Right, but it wasn't so
really good fortune that theydidn't give me up for adoption
and that they stuck it out asyoung, very young parents with

(17:17):
very young children with nothing, worked really hard every day
of their lives to provide mewith the opportunity to go to
university.
My grandfather was one of 13and my dad is one of seven,
second youngest of seven, and Iwas the first person to graduate
from university from all ofthat group, and so I never
forgot the opportunities that Ihad and where I came from and

(17:38):
always wanted to give back toIndigenous people and somehow
marry my finance career withthat.
So it wasn't until I came intothis role that I really felt the
power of being able to do that.

Stewart Muir (17:51):
That's quite a story.
Thanks for sharing that, Shanna.

Chana Martineau (17:55):
Thank you.

Stewart Muir (17:56):
The meaning of this work I'd like to understand
, because you're not just givingout money.
Let's put that to rest, I thinkthere are some prejudices I run
across in this country that oh.

Chana Martineau (18:09):
First.

Stewart Muir (18:09):
Nations, they just get Ottawa giving them money,
which I think, if there's anytruth to that, I don't think
it's been an effective approach.
I'm not even sure it's true,though.
What's the situation?

Chana Martineau (18:20):
So I'll tell you about our work and then I'll
say absolutely, the federalgovernment just doesn't give out
money, and if you reallyunderstood the journey of First
Nations people and Indigenouspeople in our country, I think
that myth would be again.
We go back to the banks, lendmoney for the investment, just
like they would in any othercircumstances.
We just replace the collateral.
So what we do with that, itmakes a more attractive interest

(18:54):
rate.
So the economic reconciliationpart is a greater return on that
investment to Indigenous people.
That investment is then used toinvest in other things, so
future businesses, communitycenters I think we've all heard
about the infrastructure gap,both in our nation, but
especially on reserve and in theIndigenous communities, and so
these are funds that are beingused to reinvest the proceeds

(19:17):
back into communities, and so webelieve that north of $25
million a year will flow intocommunities in Alberta and north
of $1.3 billion will flow inover the lifetime of the loan
guarantees we provided to dateinto community.
And what does that mean interms of schools, housing, water
?
And one of my very favoritestories is the Whitefish

(19:41):
Goodfish Lake First Nation innortheastern Alberta.
Their arena burnt down 30 yearsago.
So I want you to think aboutand I'm a sports person, I want
you to think about living in arural center.
You have nowhere to participatein athletics, you have nowhere
to learn about teams, you havenowhere to learn about
leadership.
Your school's underfunded, it'shard to get there and the

(20:02):
nearest arena is an hour awayOne way.
So if you are a single mother Ihave been a single mother of
two girls over my course of myprofessional career If you're a
single mother, how do you takeyour child to hockey ring at any
of the winter sports thatCanadians are passionate about?
And so then they lose thoseskills and they lose that

(20:24):
productivity.
And then what does that looklike?
As you're a teenager with, youknow, sort of no productive
outlet for your energies?
That community talks about alost generation, and then that
lost generation impacts not onlythe First Nation itself, but
all the surrounding communities,all the towns around them.
When you have productive, happy, healthy citizens contributing,

(20:44):
you're accelerating the economy, contributing in a healthy way.
The same is true when you'reunhealthy and you're
contributing in an unhealthy way.
And so not only so.
I was so proud that WhitefishGood Fish Lake First Nation has
taken their proceeds, arrangedfinancing through First Nations
Bank and built a community, acenter, an omniplex that will

(21:08):
have an arena.
It'll be a place for them togather, it will be a healthy
heart for their community andthey talk about the excitement
and a centre, a healthy placefor their people.
A Métis settlement, elizabethMétis.
They bought a van with one ofthe proceeds of some of their
investments to transport theirelders to community events so

(21:29):
the young people haveconnections to the elders and
can stay in touch with theculture.
Think about now these youthgrowing up in a healthy
environment and you think aboutthe opioid crisis and the
disproportionate impact onIndigenous peoples and fast
forward that and make thosecommunities far more healthy.
And how do the individualscoming out of that community

(21:50):
contribute to our society atlarge?
So it's better for theIndigenous communities, but it's
better for all Albertans andall Canadians.

Stewart Muir (21:58):
And I'm going to guess that there wasn't anyone
just waiting to go and buildthat arena for the whitefish.
Good fish community, good fishLake First.

Chana Martineau (22:05):
Nation, no, no, and that one brings a tear to
my eye every time.
But there's so many others.
So you know the work is, as youcan tell, deeply meaningful for
me.
But I'm also remember, I'm aneconomist at heart and so I'm
also really proud of Alberta andCanadians for seeing the
opportunity in this and seeinghow it benefits all of us.

Stewart Muir (22:28):
That's an incredible story and I think, to
understand it more from end toend, let's talk about how a deal
happens.
So there's a First Nation thatqualifies what makes a community
qualified to be able to applyand what constitutes a proposal
that you would then say, yeah,we'll provide the collateral for

(22:50):
you to do that, and then offyou go.
Maybe it's an example or maybejust in general, you could
describe how that works.

Chana Martineau (22:57):
Absolutely, and we have investment
opportunities come to us fromboth the business side and the
community side.
So it's really interesting tosee how this comes together.
But there's a lot of businessesand you'll see them.
You know in partnerships thatwe've had Tamarack Valley,
enbridge, strathcona Resourcesand others that want to partner

(23:18):
with their Indigenous neighbors.
They've been looking foropportunities to do this for a
long time and so often one sideor the other will come to our
team and say we've got thisopportunity in front of us, and
so this might get a littletechnical on the finance side.
But then we assess thatopportunity, just like if we go
back to your mortgage example.
You go into the bank with yourfinancial statements or your

(23:41):
income verification and yourhome and the bank validates the
value of the home.
They validate your income, theymake sure you can make the
mortgage payments.
We basically do that on a macroscale.
So will the Cascade Power Plant?
Can it generate enough incometo pay back the debt?
And then, can it also thengenerate returns to the

(24:01):
community?
For the reconciliation part,can that debt also be supported
with net payments to thecommunity?

Stewart Muir (24:06):
Just like a banker would.

Chana Martineau (24:09):
Just like a banker would Exactly the same,
and the banker still providesthe debt, remember.
So then when we all cometogether, then they apply to a
bank or a bond issuer the sameway that you apply to the bank
for a mortgage.
And then the bank ATB hasfinanced in Alberta several of
our transactions, but so hasCIVC and others says yes, we

(24:29):
will provide that financing.
Alberta will then provide theguarantee for the Indigenous
community.
It's typically a consortium, agroup of communities together,
often both Métis and FirstNation, and so it's really just
adding a third party at thetable between the Indigenous
communities, the company thatthey're working with to make

(24:50):
that investment with, and thenthe bank, and then we will
support the entire ecosystem.
Through negotiations.
We work to make sure that theAlberta taxpayer is protected
against default, so we will addspecial provisions in to cover
you know what happens if theincome fluctuates, In the same
way that the bank wants to knowthat your mortgage is covered if

(25:10):
you have a disability and youcan't work.
They want insurance.
We'll do the similar kinds ofthings.

Stewart Muir (25:17):
So you've got a $3 billion fund, but that's not
money where the government saidgo and spend this money.
They've said go and invest thismoney and grow this pool, right
.

Chana Martineau (25:32):
Right and then it's still lent.
So the actual the government.
None of the money comes out ofthe government of Alberta bucket
unless there's a default.
So it's called a contingentliability.
It's like a cosigner If youcosign for someone's loan.
That's what the Albertagovernment is doing.

Stewart Muir (25:42):
Now, do you have enough of a track record in the
market of doing these deals tobe able to say whether there's a
higher or lower average defaultrate from these investments?

Chana Martineau (25:53):
We've had no defaults to date.

Stewart Muir (25:54):
No, defaults at all, so we're over five years in
exist.
Done.
That sounds like it's betterthan average.

Chana Martineau (25:59):
We are very stringent in our requirements,
so the bar is high.
That's why we don't do hundredsof these deals.
We do a handful.
There may be two to three ayear.
They're very large, they'revery impactful and we have a $20
million minimum investment size.
So these are large scaleinfrastructure projects and the
credit risk tolerance is verylow and I think that is what is

(26:21):
really changing hearts and minds.
So other governments have kindof watched us carefully to see
what we do.
We've shared our knowledgewillingly because we want the
ecosystem to thrive, we wantCanada to thrive.
We're not proprietary about howwe approach this, but we do
talk about it's not easy to do atransaction with us.

(26:41):
The bar for the investmentquality is very, very high.
The cash flow profile is veryhigh, and so they're not easy.
We don't do one every week,there's a handful of a year.
There is a minimum investmentsize of $20 million.
The goal is to generatemeaningful returns net of loan
payments.
So they're not easy to do.

(27:02):
But we have found partners thathave come with us alongside the
communities to invest in greatassets and so we found great
transactions and so far we havehad no defaults to date and no
provisions for credit loss forthe finance gurus or the
accountants in the crowd.
We haven't had a provision forcredit loss either.

Stewart Muir (27:24):
I've got to say I'm no finance specialist, but I
think congratulations are dueto this.
It's mostly happened under yourleadership.
You've been in the seat for, Ithink, a majority of the time
the organization has existed.
So I think you get the pointsfor this, shanna.

Chana Martineau (27:39):
Thank you.
Way to go, thank you.
I'm proud of what we've beenable to achieve, but I have a
great team.

Stewart Muir (27:52):
It takes a lot of dedication by a lot of people to
make this happen.
I do want to dig a littledeeper, but also to just expand
the understanding of thismission.
Can you back an investment inany sector of the economy?

Chana Martineau (27:59):
We've got the mandated sectors and they're all
with related infrastructure.
So remember that we aredesigned to support large-scale
infrastructure projects.
Our typical investment size issomewhere between $20 million
and $250 million of investment,and that is typically sort of
$100 million.
$250 million would be ouraverage deal size.

(28:19):
We have some on either end, youknow, and we've supported some
very large investments.
The Athabasca IndigenousInvestments in the Seven
Pipelines with Enbridge was$1.12 billion in total, with a
$250 million loan guarantee andan $860 million bond.
So we can do some verylarge-scale investments as well.

Stewart Muir (28:41):
So this means that a First Nation business entity
maybe it's a First Nation band,I guess or a development
corporation they can attachthemselves financially to assets
that pension funds wouldcategorize as the safest, the
safest houses kind of investment.
I mean, these aren't riskyassets, are they?

Chana Martineau (29:01):
No, not risky at all.
We have a very low risktolerance.
We have a very low risktolerance.
So I would say the very safestassets.
When we talk about large scaleinfrastructure, you think power
plants, pipelines, the thingsthat our economy need to operate
.

Stewart Muir (29:14):
So that could be.
Think about those kinds ofthings.
You've mentioned pipelines.
You could do a wind farm.

Chana Martineau (29:19):
Solar farm.

Stewart Muir (29:20):
Solar farm you do solar farms.

Chana Martineau (29:22):
Deptis Solar has just been announced recently
.
Cold Lake First Nation is theFirst Nation band behind that.
In that partnership withElemental, In that partnership
we collaborated with CanadaInfrastructure Bank to bring
that financing to life.
So sometimes there's more thanone financial institution at the
table and so we were proud topartner with Canada

(29:44):
Infrastructure Bank to bring theDapchis Hiller farm to life.

Stewart Muir (29:48):
Now you're one organization.
You were created by aprovincial government, so
someone might say you're kind ofan extension of government.
You're doing the bidding ofthem to some extent.
You have a board that probablyreports to the finance minister,
the minister of IndigenousRelations, right.
Okay, so you're kind of anextension of government and

(30:10):
you've got this responsibility,but you're dealing with other
companies increasingly that aremore controlled by different
shareholders.
You know, if the government isyour shareholder, the First
Nations Bank of Canada, cedarLeaf are indigenous-led finance
institutions right that aregetting involved.
Can you explain that part,because this is new to me?

(30:31):
I've been following your story.
I mean, you came to our stagein Vancouver at the Indigenous
Partnership Success Showcase afew years ago and you know you
started telling your story onthe West Coast then and people
were just leaning in.
But you've got this is newsyou've got these other
institutions, what's going onthere?
But you've got this is news.
You've got these otherinstitutions, what's going on
there?

Chana Martineau (30:47):
Well, the whole Indigenous financial ecosystem
is coming to life, and so FirstNations Bank has been in
existence for a long time butnow, led by Bill Lomax, cedar
Leaf is coming, longhouseCapital is another one, fnfa is

(31:08):
expanding.
So what I think is happeningthere is a momentum shift in
this country, and you knowthere's a few things that
happened, but the residentialschool discoveries in Canada
really shone a light on whythings are the way they are,
especially for Indigenouspeoples, and how we got to this.
In a way it captured people'sattention, the broader Canadian
attention, in a way that wehadn't before, and I think also,

(31:31):
at the same time, there's beena collective will to be able to
do something different.
And so I think that coming intobeing the CEO of this
organization on the heels ofthat or through that period and
beyond, and helping us emergeout of that as a better,
stronger nation, the Indigenousfinancial ecosystem, the

(31:51):
importance of it, theopportunity in it, it has been
seen as an opportunity forgrowth in our country in a way
that it wasn't seen before, andso, if that's maybe one of the
few benefits of the pandemic, Ithink that is one that helped us
all to stop, see, reflect onwhat we view and why and how

(32:12):
Indigenous people participate inour economy and have people
look for a different and betterway going forward.
But I just think that was aninflection point for our country
.
The residential schoolexperience had been in existence
for forever, but I just thinkit wasn't broadly appreciated
how terrible it was it led tothe Truth and Reconciliation

(32:34):
Commission?

Stewart Muir (32:34):
did it not?

Chana Martineau (32:35):
Yes, it did, and the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission recommendations wasone of the key drivers to the
creation of this organizationthose two pieces, the Truth and
Reconciliation recommendations.
Also just the broaderexperience by Canadians to say
wait a minute, this is not okay,we need to do something
different.
And then also Indigenous peoplecoming up and saying having

(32:58):
pride, the leverage institutionslike ours to support, and
saying yes, we can and beingmore bold about it.
It's really exciting timesright now and I hate to say the
pandemic was the sole cause ofit.
It wasn't, but I think it was apoint of reflection for most of
the country.

Stewart Muir (33:16):
You know I will never forget that during the
pandemic we had Senator MurraySinclair speak to us.
It was virtual, we wereconfined in our homes, but we
did the Indigenous PartnershipSuccess Showcase anyway that
year.
It was virtual, we wereconfined in our homes, but we
did the Indigenous PartnershipSuccess Showcase anyway that
year.
We had to.
And you know he passed awaylast year.
So we all think often, I think,of his legacy, those of us who

(33:37):
are invested in this, and hespoke very deeply.
It was actually the day thatthe Kamloops grave discovery was
announced by the First Nation.
It was the biggest story in thecountry and there we were and
everyone wanted his help tounderstand.
It's the forgiveness that Itook away from that.

(33:59):
I mean, boy, there might besome indigenous peoples who
don't have forgiveness yet, butthe amount of forgiveness among
the indigenous peoples of Canadais incredible, and this is
being expressed through theinvestments that are happening,

(34:20):
because they're a way toconstructively build something
that is shared with everybody.
I mean, I just find thatincredible.

Chana Martineau (34:28):
A deep part of Indigenous culture is gratitude
Gratitude for every day, nomatter how hard it is, but
gratitude that we thank thecreator every day for the gift
of the day.
And so that is just such a deeppart of Indigenous culture that
it's hard to explain, and Ithink you know anyone in their

(34:53):
journey.
You can either focus on thehurt or you can focus on the
lessons, and there are thosethat do both, and often every
one of us focuses on the hurtbefore we focus on the lessons
and trying to make it better,and so, myself included, we all
have to grow and take theopportunity, and we're all at

(35:14):
different stages in our ownexistence when we make that
choice, and so SenatorSinclair's book is incredibly
moving.
I encourage all of yourlisteners to read it.
I spent some time with it thisspring and it just was deeply
meaningful for me, and I alwaysjust try to focus on what can we

(35:34):
do.
There's lots of people out thereon all sides that say you know
you can't solve all the problems, or there's still so many
problems, and I just say, well,this is my small part, this is
how I can most help.
What I can do is help puteconomic opportunity and help
bring Indigenous peoples intothose economic opportunities, so

(35:58):
that the leaders of thosecommunities have more revenue
and more resources to helpaddress all of the pressing
issues of their community andhowever they prioritize as the
elected leaders of their band orof their settlement or of their
Métis nation.
However they prioritize thosepriorities, we're just helping

(36:21):
them to achieve their goalssooner and I really
fundamentally believe we'll bebetter off as a country for it.

Stewart Muir (36:35):
Shanna, have you ever run across anyone?
I'll bet you travel around andI really fundamentally believe
we'll be better off as a countryfor it.
Stay on my land and hunt forthe things that my ancestors ate
and not engage in the economy.
Thank you very much, so I don'tsupport what you're doing.
Have you ever heard somethinglike that said?

Chana Martineau (36:59):
Yeah, absolutely 100%.
But mostly Indigenous peoplewant the same opportunities as
all other Canadians.
They want the opportunity foreducation.
They want a healthy, meaningfullife.
They want good, healthy foodand access to clean water.
Yes, they want traditionallifestyle as well, very deeply

(37:19):
concerned about the environmentand the land and nature.
They're not mutually exclusiveand I think being at the table
is an opportunity to help usdevelop our economy in a very
responsible way.
But, yes, I have been doubtedand there are communities that
just opt not to participate inour deals and that is okay.

(37:43):
Okay, I wholeheartedly supportthose goals as well.
I see AIOC and our team as thebringer together of
opportunities and those thatwant to participate, and we did
have one community in one of ourtransactions.
They opted not to participatein the Tamarack deal.

(38:03):
That we did and it was veryinteresting to me.
I was sad because it was alarge community.
They were in a state ofemergency.
There's lots of need, as thereare in every community, but I
just you know I wasbrokenhearted that they chose
not to participate.
But we went ahead with the 12communities we had involved and

(38:24):
what was interesting is itwasn't the leaders that changed
their mind, it was the communitymembers came back to leadership
and said why did you pass up onthis economic opportunity?
We want this economicopportunity and we want you to
go back and find a way for us toparticipate.
And so that's a really unusualsituation.

(38:47):
We wouldn't normally allow that, but because of the extenuating
circumstances, including thestate of the emergency on the
reserve, at the decision-makingtime we worked with the other 12
members of the Wapis-Chanispartnership.
They unanimously voted to bringBig Stone back into the deal.
The corporate partner Big Stonewas an important part of their

(39:10):
operations.
That's where most of theirIndigenous staff members come
from.
That's the community that'sphysically closest to their
assets.
It was just an important partof the partnership.
So they agreed.
And then the two financialpartners providing the debt.
We needed to explain to themthe rationale about why this was
important for all of theparties involved.
But they agreed to revisit thedeal and open it up, make it a

(39:33):
little bigger.
So every community got a biggerinvestment and a bigger return.
Big Stone got back in theircommunity, was happy with the
decision, and it's somethingthat, when I look back at my
time here that I will be mostproud of that we were able to
make this happen.

Stewart Muir (39:51):
What a story.
You mentioned Tamarack, that'san energy company based in
Alberta.
Is that?

Chana Martineau (39:55):
correct.
Tamarack Valley Energy.
Yes.

Stewart Muir (39:57):
And what do they do?

Chana Martineau (39:58):
They're an E&P company, so they natural gas,
they're in the Monteney, theyhave gas assets and they're led
by a CEO that is an honorarychief of the Blood Tribe.
They really strongly believe inIndigenous inclusions.
It's been a pleasure to workwith them and is their project.

Stewart Muir (40:14):
That is what we're talking about here, located on
the traditional territories ofthe First Nations that have
invested, or can it be anywhere?

Chana Martineau (40:23):
Yes, this is located on their territories, on
the Indigenous communities.
So you first want to partnerwith the nations that are
closest to your assets.
So when you're thinking aboutyour backyard, it doesn't make
sense for me to the pipelinesfor your backyards.
It doesn't make sense for me totalk to your neighbor five
blocks over and not talk to youif it's going through your
backyard.

Stewart Muir (40:42):
Now we've been talking about Alberta.
I'm in British Columbia.
If, If it's going through yourbackyard.

Chana Martineau (40:52):
Now we've been talking about Alberta.
I'm in British Columbia.
If there was a First Nation inBC that loved what you're doing
and called you up, what wouldthey hear from you or your
people?
So there's two thresholds forAIOC investment support.
So one is Alberta nations mustmake up 25 percent of the
indigenous consortium.
So something like the TransMountain Pipeline, as long as
Alberta nations, first Nationsor Métis made up 25% of the
broader Indigenous InvestmentConsortium, then AIOC could

(41:15):
support it.
And if there is an economic netbenefit to Alberta, so when we
think about that, alberta isputting up its balance sheet as
collateral they want to havesome economic development
benefit to Alberta.
So when we think about that,alberta is putting up its
balance sheet as collateral,they want to have some economic
development benefit to Alberta.
So I use the Trans Mountainexample as a keen one of an
opportunity that we couldsupport if BC nations and

(41:36):
Alberta nations came together tobuy a stake in that pipeline
system, because it originates inEdmonton, takes our natural
resources to the coast andthere's Alberta and BC
Indigenous communities along theway.

Stewart Muir (41:50):
Now what if it was First Nation Anywhere, say
Alberta, that said, well, wedon't have a wind farm potential
on our property and there's nogas drilling, there's no
pipeline crossing, but we thinkthis would be a great place for
a resort, for tourism.
What would you say to them?

Chana Martineau (42:07):
Well then we would go through the business
plan, but that would be eligibleunder our current mandate it
would be okay, yes, absolutelyso.
Tourism was just included in ourmandate this year or within the
last 12 months, and so weshould.
You know we're actively lookingat transactions and investment
opportunities in that space.
Again, with our $20 millionminimum, these are not small

(42:30):
investments.
So they would be large scaleprojects and they've got to meet
our credit criteria.
So, you know, when you thinkabout, you know, just throw out
ideas, kananaskis Lodge or a skiresort like Lake Louise, you
know like those are big kinds ofinvestments that might fit the
bill.
I don't want to say we'reworking on those, that's not.
That's not the case, but it'sjust to give you an idea of what
it could be, or differentopportunities.

(42:53):
There's always new thingscoming to the forefront and you
never know what will be the nextbig economic opportunity.
Data centers have been a verytopical conversation under the
technology front, like you know.
Could that be somethingIndigenous?
Participation in the datacenter market or in the powering
of those data centers, likethose, are all ideas that we're

(43:15):
actively exploring every day.

Stewart Muir (43:17):
And there's a very clear mandate from the
government of Alberta to getinto data centers, because
that's a growth area.
Ai is incredibly energy hungry,so it kind of makes sense.

Chana Martineau (43:28):
Yeah, so, and what I would say is Indigenous
reconciliation to me is aboutcatching Indigenous peoples up
to where we are currently, andso the energy economy that makes
a lot of sense.
But also we need to positionIndigenous peoples to
participate in the economicgrowth of our country as well,

(43:48):
or we'll always be playing catchup, and so you know, when we
think about the tariffsituations with the US
government and then thereflection that Canadians have
done about we need to do oureconomy better.
We need to take care ofourselves and be less reliant on
others, you know Indigenouspeoples will be a big part of
the solutions there.

Stewart Muir (44:09):
That's on the tariffs front, and recently we
saw a federal election.
It was quite rare, I meanhonestly.
Can you remember a time whenthere was a federal election
campaign where people weretalking about pipelines, but
just in a generally constructiveoh what if we did this, what if
we did that?
Rather than this sort ofpitched warfare about energy
infrastructure?
And then, at the end of the day, probably what 85% of Canadians

(44:32):
voted for?
Parties that are kind of opento possibilities.
I mean, it feels like there's adifferent political mood on the
land.

Chana Martineau (44:41):
Absolutely.
I think it's well-pl placed.
I think we have realized ourvulnerabilities from the choices
that we have made.
Having ourselves be highlydependent on one customer is
typically not good business forany business, and so you want to
have a diversity ofopportunities to market your
products, and so we haven'tcreated that for ourselves and

(45:02):
we've been deliberate aboutthose choices, and so we're
going to have to be deliberateabout our choices to get out of
that situation.

Stewart Muir (45:09):
When Prime Minister Mark Carney talks about
this line, he's got makingCanada an energy superpower, and
he says both renewables andconventional, and by that I
think everyone understands hemeans oil and gas or other
things we've been conventionallydoing for a long time.
Does that sound authentic?
Does it resonate with yourmembers, your board members, the

(45:30):
communities that are investing?

Chana Martineau (45:33):
I think Prime Minister Carney is a very
practical individual.
He has led two central banks.
I think he is well aware, or Ihope he's well aware, that we
need that conventional resources, or I hope he's well aware that
we need that conventionalresources and to support the
nation's other objectives weneed the revenue from our
conventional resources, and so Ihope and I believe that he will

(45:57):
follow through on that.
I don't see how we find our waythrough the economic situation
we're in without the support ofour natural resource economy.

Stewart Muir (46:07):
I think we're appreciating that AIOC is really
diverse in what it supports.
You're supporting solar andwind.
You're also supporting gettingnatural gas to market.
It so happens that Canada isabout to start shipping natural
gas to Asia and Japan, Korea,some of the countries and the

(46:27):
reason businesses are doing thatis because they're engaging in
trade.
They're exchanging a valuablecommodity that the world wants
for the money we need to buyiPhones and orange juice and
other things that we don't makeor grow in Canada.

Chana Martineau (46:40):
And the world wants our energy.
Canada has some of the cleanest, most responsibly produced
energy in the world, and so whenyou think about energy security
, energy affordability andenergy availability, canada
really leads the world in thatin a way I think we've taken for
granted before, and so I'mexcited about the potential to

(47:01):
ship our natural gas to Asia.
It really saves our planet frommore coal.
And when you think about it,the Americans talk about energy
security as being US security.
They view energy security ascritical to world peace, that
when countries don't have energysecurity, that is when you get

(47:23):
armed conflict, and so they viewexporting LNG as not only being
an environmentally friendlysolution better for the planet,
but they also view it asmilitary security, and so I
think Canadians need to have abit more of a global view on
some of those things.
Sometimes it's not just aboutwhat we're doing here, but it's

(47:45):
also about how we're impactingthe rest of the nations on our
planet.

Stewart Muir (47:49):
Well, maybe what Mark Carney has been saying is a
reflection that that change isactually happening.
What you're saying is thatCanadians should be thinking
more pragmatically about theseissues, and maybe they are.

Chana Martineau (48:01):
I hope so.
We will wait and see.
I hope so, but I think, asCanadians, we have to.

Stewart Muir (48:06):
Or what.

Chana Martineau (48:07):
Well, our economy will continue to decline
and our standard of living willdecline, and we then will be
subject to the same instabilitythat some of the rest of the
world is seeing.
You know, I want to share astory with you, stuart, and I
know it's probably somethingyou're familiar with, and I know
it's probably something you'refamiliar with, but a year ago in

(48:28):
January, alberta had rollingbrownouts and we had an
emergency alert on our powergrid.
It was 40 below or colder withthe wind chill in January, and
we got an alert on our phone,similar to an Amber alert, and
the alert asked us to turn offall unnecessary power.
Unplug computers that youweren't using, turn off the
lights.
I myself stayed home instead ofgoing out for dinner that night

(48:52):
because I was worried aboutgetting caught on the roads
without streetlights,potentially if the power went
out.
I thought a lot about themarginalized parts of our
society, and what does veryexpensive access to heat mean
for those people?
What does having the power goout for the most marginalized

(49:13):
parts of our society?
And then I also just wonderedyou know, as Albertans we've
taken our energy reliability forgranted.
It was inconceivable to me thatin Alberta that we would have a
power grid over.
You know potential shutdownbecause of overage, and so you
know impossible to think of.
But yet here we were, and inthe very coldest part of the

(49:34):
year.

Stewart Muir (49:35):
Well, if the success that AIOC has been
showing for the last severalyears, what do you think the
vision is for 10 years from nowfor Indigenous involvement in
the power energy, but hey, thetourism sector and the renewable
sector.
What's your optimistic visionfor that, shanna?

Chana Martineau (49:54):
My optimistic vision is that Indigenous
peoples are actively engaged inall aspects of our economy, that
Indigenous participation isjust the norm, and that our
Indigenous communities inAlberta are healthy and thriving
and that the entire province isstronger for it.

Stewart Muir (50:12):
And on a scale of one to 10, say how far are we
now in 2025 towards that vision?

Chana Martineau (50:18):
That's a tough one.
The optimist in me wants to saysix or seven.
I think we're on our way, Ithink we have a lot of momentum.
But honestly, if I really saidthat I think we're probably, you
know, three or four, maybe five, we're on our way, we're
gaining momentum, we will getthere.

Stewart Muir (50:34):
And what keeps you up at night.
The biggest risk or challengeto getting from this state to
that 10 years away state.

Chana Martineau (50:43):
You know, we have to make sure there's no
failures.
We can't have a major stoppage.
Everyone's looking for us forleadership.
And then my biggest.
You know, I guess my biggestchallenge and our challenge, for
our team, is to help continueto inspire business leaders that
this is a great source ofcapital for their business and

(51:05):
that Indigenous partnershipshelp make their business better.
We just we all need to cometogether to address Canada's
productivity challenges, and Ithink this is a great way to do
it.
I think we're well on our way,but I'm just I worry about
anything that might slow us downtoo much or might reverse the
tide.

Stewart Muir (51:24):
Well, when I was in the room when you had a
gathering recently and it wasall First Nations and you spoke,
I forget what you said.
Actually it was really loud,that's why I couldn't.
But here's what I remember,though, is the excitement and
the hope and the expectation.
I was kind of circulating atthis event talking to people,
and it was just.
They were so appreciative thatyou have created a place to come

(51:49):
together with actual hope andtrack record and not more
promises and broken promises anddisappointments.
Do you feel that people arecounting on you as a person to
deliver?
Do you feel that?

Chana Martineau (52:02):
I think we all owe it to ourselves to feel that
we all have a role to play inthat.
I'm proud of the work that wehave done here together as a
team.
But always remember it's no oneperson by themselves.
And so I get up every daythinking you know, how can we
advance Indigenous participation, how can we make the lives of

(52:25):
Indigenous peoples better,whatever that looks like for
them, and what's our role inthat?
And we can't be distracted byother things.
So there's other issues forother people to solve, voice and
our perspective to helpgovernment see the opportunity,
the opportunity available forour country, the opportunity for

(52:48):
the future.
And so I can't help but beoptimistic.
It's just how I'm built and Ijust think we can do better.

Stewart Muir (52:57):
You've really opened up about your beginnings.
I wonder if you were able to goback in time and ask your
mother, who was 17 years oldwhen she had her first child I
don't know if that was you or asibling.

Chana Martineau (53:11):
It was me, it was you.

Stewart Muir (53:13):
Here's how I turned out.
What would she have said?

Chana Martineau (53:20):
What you might not know is my mom passed away
really suddenly at 65.

Stewart Muir (53:27):
I'm so sorry to hear that.

Chana Martineau (53:28):
Yeah, no, that's okay.
So I often hope that she cansee where I am now and I often
think she would be so proudmaybe a little surprised at how
far I've come and that I'm a CEOof a Crown Corporation.
I know my dad is still alive.

Stewart Muir (53:49):
He must be proud.

Chana Martineau (53:51):
I think he is very proud and I can't believe
it myself sometimes.
You know, when I look from theoutside in, I'm amazed that I'm
a CEO of a great organization,that I'm able to share the voice
of Indigenous peoples and theexperience on a national stage
and on a global stage.
I remember always that is agreat honour and a great

(54:11):
privilege and I try to give itmy best shot every day.

Stewart Muir (54:17):
I think we need to continue this story in future
because there's so much more andit's evolving.
But, Shanna Martineau, I justwant to thank you from the
bottom of my heart for sharingso much and so deeply today on
Power Struggle.

Chana Martineau (54:31):
Thank you so much.
It has just been an honor to behere.
I've enjoyed our conversation,thank you.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!

Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.

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24/7 News: The Latest

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