The $40 Billion Project That Changed Everything

What does it take to build the largest private investment in Canadian history? Susanna Pierce reveals the inside story of the $40 billion LNG Canada project as it prepares to ship its first cargo – a milestone she helped shape during her tenure as president of Shell Canada.

The conversation takes us behind the curtain of mega-project development, where Pierce describes the intricate dance of coordinating every aspect of the value chain while building meaningful partnerships with First Nations communities. "What made LNG Canada reality was everyone coming together," she explains, highlighting how Indigenous leadership from figures like Crystal Smith and Ellis Ross was fundamental to the project's success. This represents a powerful model of economic reconciliation where First Nations have "a share and a say" in resource development.

Pierce offers unique perspective on what it means for Canada to become an energy superpower – balancing our hydrocarbon resources with climate responsibility while remaining competitive in global markets. Drawing from her experience living in both Alberta and British Columbia, she provides nuanced insights on the cultural and economic divides that shape our national energy conversations: "When I read the newspaper in BC about oil and gas, I heard about how bad we are. In Calgary, I heard about how misunderstood we are."

Now heading into a new chapter with Peter Tertzakian at StudioEnergy, Pierce is applying her skills to create data-driven solutions for Canada's energy challenges. But perhaps most surprising is her passionate commitment to fighting human trafficking in Canada – a cause she's tackling by building networks between organizations and corporations to create collective impact.

As Canada navigates complex choices about its energy future, Pierce offers a compelling vision: the opportunity to redefine who we are on the global stage while creating prosperity at home. Her journey demonstrates how leadership, resilience and cooperation can move seemingly impossible projects from vision to reality.

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Episode Transcript

Susannah Pierce (00:00):
I made a commitment a couple of years ago
to say well, I'm not going toturn a blind eye on this, I'm
not going to pretend that itdoesn't exist, because I know it
exists in our communities, notjust the North, but here in
Vancouver.
I know that big events you knowcoming up, such as FIFA, will
attract more traffic.

Stewart Muir (00:24):
If you're enjoying Power Struggle, make sure to
subscribe, share this episodeand leave us a review, because
it helps us keep fact-basedenergy conversations going and
gets these voices into more ears.
Our guest today is someone whospent two decades at the very
center of the North Americanenergy sector Susanna Pierce.
Susanna, welcome.

Susannah Pierce (00:46):
It's so great to be here.

Stewart Muir (00:47):
It's so great to have you here After four years
as president and country chairof Shell Canada, one of the
fabled super majors of theglobal energy scene.
Here you are taking on some newchallenges that we're going to
talk about today.
We're going to look at whatyou're doing with Peter
Terzakian at studioenergy Reallyexciting project.

(01:10):
We're your partner and we'regoing to look back as well on
something that is unfolding justin the literally next few hours
and days as we sit hererecording this nearly the end of
june 2025 historic momentcoming up.
What is that talk about?
That?
Um, so this is really excitingfor me to to welcome you to

(01:34):
power struggle.
We've known each other on, uh,the projects that you've been
working on.
You've been a public figure.
You've been everywhere I go.
You're there talking to theaudiences that matter to you.
But, suzanne, I'd like to go tothis inaugural LNG Cargo.

(01:55):
So LNG Canada.
You worked on this project fora decade or more.
You were the country lead forShell Canada, which is the lead
investor, lead partner for LNGCanada with the other country
investors.
I'd like to talk about this alittle bit and it's a $40
billion project.

(02:15):
It's the biggest Canadianprivate sector investment in
history and you were the spiritof that for a long time.
It's mind-blowing.
What was it like?

Susannah Pierce (02:45):
the CEO at the time of LNG Canada and he was
really critical, I think, inbringing all the joint venture
partners together to create thejoint venture so that we could,
you know, be where we are todayand get us through some of the
most difficult times, which isthe formation of the project,
the alignment across the jointventure participants working
with the First Nations, alllevels of government, community
so, beyond Andy, the entireleadership team, the decision

(03:06):
makers within each of the houses, the communities, again, you
can go on and on and on.
And, as I think about it todaytoo, you know what made LNG
Canada reality was reallyeveryone coming together and
saying we want to get this done.
And it wasn't universal all thetime, let's do it.
It was more about we have achallenge.
How do we work on thischallenge together to get to a
point where we can make adecision which is a final

(03:28):
investment decision, and then,from that final investment
decision, it's the next crew whocomes in to build it.
And now we're at that next majormilestone.
The companies are and I say weas a country and a province that
next major milestone where wewill be exporting natural gas at
a large global scale for thefirst time in our history.
So suffice it to say there's somany people who contributed to

(03:49):
it that you know, but there'slots of people who contributed
to it that you don't know, andyou're one of those people who
worked behind the scenes to makeit a reality.
So that's part of why I wantedto be here with you today as
well to say thank you and Ithink the country certainly owes
you thanks for all that you'vedone to try and get natural
resources developed.

Stewart Muir (04:06):
Well, thanks so much.
I mean these criticalconversations across communities
all around British Columbia,but Canada too, have been part
of that social license project.
That is needed for something ofthis scale, especially when
you're a democracy whereeveryone's got rights to speak
as they should.
We've got regulatory processeswhere public has rights to and
organizations, and it'sincredibly complex.

Susannah Pierce (04:29):
It could be incredibly complex.
And again, and that's where youneed leaders who can see the
complexity, who can break itdown into pieces that you can
then manage and influence andget to decision and then bring
it all back together and thenyou can move big things forward.
And it's almost like climbing amountain.
You don't look at the top ofthe mountain, you look at your
first step and you keep goingand you have resilience and you

(04:51):
have ups and you have downs.
And I would just say that youknow the LNG Canada project.
For many people who worked onit was that project where they
learned so much.
It was hard work, but therealization of it and again.
I won't speak for my friend,chief Elected Counselor Crystal
Smith.
The realization of it is soprofound.
And again, what's nice aboutthis project?

(05:12):
It's not just for theshareholders, just not for the
investors, it's for thecommunities, of course.
Phil Grimuth, who's mayor ofKitimat as well, who's been, you
know, mayor for some time theretoo, has also played such a
leadership role as well.
And again, I can go on and on.
There's so many people who weowe thanks.

Stewart Muir (05:29):
And you have been involved in this at every level
over this time.
It's really something, butthere might be someone watching
this who doesn't know what LNGCanada is.
So let's pretend to write theWikipedia entry of your dreams
for this project.
What do I find when I go there?

Susannah Pierce (05:45):
Well, lng Canada is a joint venture
partnership and we call it thatbecause of the participants and
it's Shell, petronas, mitsubishi, korea Gas and CNPC or
PetroChina, and it came togetherto export natural gas in liquid
form from the port of Kitimat,from Kitimat, all the way to
consumers or customers in Asia.

(06:06):
And what's fantastic about thisLNG project is the fact that the
participants also have upstreamgas, so it's the gas that they
would produce and ship along thepipeline, which is coastal gas
pipeline, and then export it viathe LNG Canada terminal and,
yes, with its first cargo aboutto ship any day, it will then
bring that cargo to countriesand customers within those

(06:28):
countries who are looking tothat gas to power homes, to use
in their own industrial boilersand things like that.
But one of the benefits of it, Ithink, is, by design, the fact
that when we were looking at howdo we create new LNG, how do we
lower the carbon intensity Intoday's conversation around any
hydrocarbon, we have to alsotalk about climate.
So when you're looking atnatural gas and the IEA has just

(06:50):
come out with this natural gasand LNG is about 50% lower in
emissions than coal, so you havethe opportunity to displace
coal and reduce emissions inthose consuming regions and with
the lowest carbon intensity LNGcoming from British Columbia,
you know that in the overallportfolio of LNG, it's a good
thing you know in terms of thatLNG serving customers who are
looking to displace higherintensive fuels.

Stewart Muir (07:12):
That's the perfect potter history of LNG Canada.
Thank you.
Yeah, it was an unbelievablycomplex.
I've heard it said that aproject like this, because of
the size of the financing,involves every single bank in
the world.
It's one of those globallysignificant projects that
unifies everyone.

(07:32):
It's hard to imagine, and youlook at all the steps required
to succeed.
So I have a question here whatfor you, was the most complex
part for you personally, and youhad different positions over
the years in it part for youpersonally, and you had
different positions over theyears in it.
And now I would just add thatyou kind of mentioned this at
the beginning, but you are nowoutside of that company and
you're not representing ShellCanada right now.

(07:56):
You're speaking of yourexperience as a person in this.
What was the most complex partof this journey for you, susanna
?

Susannah Pierce (08:03):
For the LNG Canada journey itself, or yeah.
So let me just speak to thatbecause I think it's something
where it was the most complexbut it ended up being the most
effective thing that we couldhave done.
And it really comes down to,when you're looking at doing any
major investment, how you bringtogether all aspects of that
investment into a coordinatedstrategy.
And so what I mean by that is,when you're thinking about

(08:26):
building a project like an LNGterminal, you need to make sure
you have the right engineeringand technical design, but
alongside of that, you reallyneed to make sure that you
understand the impact of thatfacility and construction
operations on the community.
You need to do yourenvironmental and regulatory
permitting.
You need to make sure youunderstand the law in terms of
shipping gas from Canada toother nations.
You need to make sure youunderstand the law in terms of
shipping gas from Canada toother nations.
You need to make sure youunderstand can it actually make

(08:48):
the investors money?
Can it provide a fair return togovernments and to First
Nations?
Holistically, does this makesense?
I would say that's part of thecomplexity.
But then you need to add onupstream gas that then needs to
go through Coastal Gas Link,which was an independent project

(09:11):
that was servicing the terminal.
Then you need to bring on thoseother pieces of the value chain
and make sure all of those areworking together, while you also
need to make sure thatcustomers still want your gas,
so you have the market end.
So when you look at the overallcomplexity of that project, it's
not only just looking at thetunnel itself, it's making sure
that each piece of that valuechain is working together at the
right time so that when you dosend out that first car, no,

(09:34):
it's all lined up.
So I guess what I said in thebeginning is you can't climb a
whole mountain or look at thetop of the mountain at the first
step.
You need to take one step at atime.
We did take one step at a time,but we made sure that the steps
were coordinated across each ofthose pieces of the value chain
, within each of the pieces,within each of the nodes you
could call that value chain sothat we could come to a final
investment decision and thenexecute it, keeping all of those

(09:57):
coordinated nodes in place aswe go.
So that was the most complexthing, because you had to really
keep your eyes on each piece ofit.
But it's also, like I said, theway that we did it and the way
that we coordinated it andintegrated it the most rewarding
, and it's part of why we arehere today, and I'd even say
it's probably part of why LNGCanada, of all the projects you

(10:19):
know that were on the docket wayback when, is really the first
one to get going in a major way.

Stewart Muir (10:25):
And others didn't make the cut.

Susannah Pierce (10:27):
And others didn't make the cut.
And I think you can look acrossthe value chain, you can look
at where those projects werecited.
You could look at a number ofdifferent things, but you know,
we had, I think, just such awonderful team in the beginning
and continued to have a greatteam as it moved along, have a
great team as it moved along.
And I would also say this isthat, you know, I fundamentally
believe and I think this isagain something that the project

(10:48):
has demonstrated is that noproject, no major investment of
this scale can be successfulwithout the alignment and
agreement with communities, bothIndigenous and non-Indigenous.

Stewart Muir (10:57):
Well, I saw that firsthand in my travels and the
corridor building that pipeline,the location of the terminal in
Kitimat, northwest BritishColumbia.
The First Nations were part ofthe success of this and in fact
essential to the success of it.

Susannah Pierce (11:12):
No, no question about it.
And you know, I think back toKaren Ogun, who's First Nations
LNG Alliance, and Crystal Smith,who, of course, is chair, and
gosh Ellis Ross I mean I thinkit kept going with all of the
wonderful people who were partof this.
But all the way through to theupstream, and you know and that
was you know where the gas isbeing produced and all who are

(11:36):
producing that gas need to makesure that they are also having
the right relationships withcommunities and First Nations.
So it was a full value chainproject, but something that you
know each of us independentlyneeded to make sure that we were
doing right.

Stewart Muir (11:43):
That's something that each of us independently
needed to make sure that we weredoing right.
I think the coverage when thisfirst cargo goes will be, you
know, half a percentage pointboost to the Canadian economy.
There'll be a lot of stats init, but I think the biggest
impact over the long term willnot be that alone.
It will be the kind of socialinnovation that this opportunity
has created for you know.

(12:03):
You look at all the lives thathave been lifted up, the careers
, families that have beenempowered to, you know, enjoy a
better standard of living.

Susannah Pierce (12:13):
Yeah, and I think that's a great point,
Stuart, because I think we tendto think that the governments
are responsible for standards ofliving and they certainly have
a role in terms of socialservices and using tax dollars
in order to provide social goods, and that's fantastic.
But what I see as very effectiveis where you're actually able

(12:34):
to generate new businesses,particularly in indigenous
communities, new businesseswhich then create jobs or then
create careers, and when you seethat happening in combination
with the private sector, FirstNations, and then there is a
role for government to helpfacilitate, that's pretty
powerful and that's where yousee economic reconciliation
happening on its own, and that,I think, is the most powerful

(12:58):
way to lift communities out ofpoverty is when they have, you
know, as Crystal Smith has said,a share and a say, and we're
going to see more of that, and Ithink that is something which
has taken hold in Canada, and Ithink it always has to be done
with a lens that businesses inCanada and this is something I
spend quite a bit of timeexplaining to folks for any

(13:19):
business in Canada to besuccessful, they need to make
some money.
They need to be able to taketheir dollars, invest it and
generate a return to theirshareholders.
If they're taking money,investing it and generating no
return, well, they're notproviding for businesses that
they could provide jobs, whichthen could provide taxes and
royalties.
So making money in and ofitself isn't wrong.
It's creating opportunity forjobs.
It's creating opportunities forbusinesses to grow to provide

(13:45):
services.
So that's a good thing.
And sometimes I think in Canadawe think it's a bad thing for
businesses to prosper.
But if businesses prosper,communities can prosper with
them, and that just goes back tosort of the Michael Porter
shared value theory, which isreally about when businesses
profit, communities prosper, andyou need to make sure that
alignment is right.

Stewart Muir (14:02):
And this is thinking that I know you're
going to be applying in the nextchapter of your career and I
want to come to that in a moment.
But there is something I wantto ask you because I'll bet you
get a question like this fromwomen executives you meet I mean
, I'm out here in Vancouver butI do go out to Calgary a lot.
I would say the Canadian oiland gas industry.

(14:24):
It's pretty male in the C-suite, but let me ask you a question
this way when you are inconversation with women
executives who must surely lookup to you, who have risen to
really the pinnacle of corporateCanada in the energy sector,
what do they want to ask you?

Susannah Pierce (14:46):
That's a great question.
Well, you know, I think a lotof it is just the general
question how did you do it?
What did you learn along theway?
And, believe me, I've learnedquite a bit, and part of it is,
you know, the combination oftrying to be a business
executive while also trying tohave a family and trying to be a
part of a community, and myadvice would be that you're

(15:14):
never going to get it perfectly,and don't be too hard on
yourself.
Continue to try and learn fromany mistakes or times where you
weren't fully present with yourkids or other parts of your
family.
I think one of the things thatyou know I would share, and have
shared with many women who'veasked me this, is that I think
when we're in business, we'rerevved up.
You know we've got to get tothe next milestone, We've got to

(15:36):
get to the next hurdle andsometimes we forget to rev down.
You know, part of what makes ussuccessful is that we have a
drive and you have an ambitionand it's okay, we've got this
done, let's go to the next thing.
But sometimes the people thatyou love don't want the revved
up Susanna.
They don't want the revved upmom and dad.
So being able to turn that downand be fully present is
something that I'll be honest, Ihaven't done perfectly.

(15:59):
I acknowledge it and I thinkthat they can appreciate me
saying that to them.
But I guess I just say this isthat we sometimes spend so much
time worrying about deliveringthe business and worrying how
that success is showing up forus and the business that we
forget about what the mostimportant contribution, which is
really to the families andcommunity.

(16:20):
So keeping that balance rightis really critical, because when
you do too much on the otherside you will look back and say,
oh, I wish I had made changessooner.
But you know, we're in Canadaright now, a really interesting
place where I do believe it isall hands on deck to
collectively work towards how dowe make the right investments
in this country so that we canhave a strong economy, so that

(16:44):
we can have jobs and growth andbe competitive not only in
Canada but on the world scale.
So it is going to take all ofus leaning in and saying this is
what I have to contribute, thisis where I think I can
contribute to developingenterprise, but this is also how
I can take care of my communityand my family at the same time.

Stewart Muir (17:01):
Well, I know that you gave everything to this
project and your work for a longtime and it sounds like you had
to weigh that price.
I hope it's all coming fullcircle for your priorities.
Across the board it sounds likeit is, and I'm happy to hear
that you certainly deserve thatwhat you've done.

(17:21):
I do want to talk about the newstuff you're doing, because
it's so exciting to me what thatis, but I want to take one of
your threads here.
We're hearing that Canada hasthe potential to become an
energy superpower.
I'd like to ask you, because ofyour career with an energy
super major company that's aterm actually used in the

(17:44):
business world to describe Shelland Exxon and BP and Philae
what nations are energysuperpowers today?

Susannah Pierce (17:55):
Well, I think the definition may be different
depending upon who you talk to,and so I mean you can think of
an energy superpower as acountry that's like Norway,
that's done amazing things withtheir hydrocarbons, where
they've been able to export, butthey've also been able to use
the revenues to invest in theirown economy, where you see the
level of decarbonization that'sbeen happening domestically.
You can call an energysuperpower the United States,

(18:17):
who's been able to turn aroundimport terminals into export
terminals and now has more thanwe can imagine in terms of their
ability to actually turn aroundand now become a net exporter,
one of the largest exporters ofenergy.
You can look towards the MiddleEast and countries where so
much of their economy has beendriven by petrodollars or by oil
and gas and say that that's anenergy superpower.

(18:38):
I think, in the Canadiancontext though I think part of
it is going to be and needs tobe the fact that we do have
these natural resources whichare profound, and that's oil and
natural gas, and some mighthave even said coal at the time
we also have critical mineralsin our earth which also conserve
the energy needs of the world,and so, I think, from the

(18:59):
perspective of what is an energysuperpower?
In the Canadian context, Ithink it is hydrocarbons,
because we are the fourthlargest producer of oil.
We have a substantial amount ofoil reserves.
It is natural gas and we'rebeginning to play a role in that
as we speak, you know, at aglobal scale.
I think it's also the fact thatwe do have uranium out of
Saskatchewan, which is someamazing projects there.

(19:22):
But also, I would say, look atour grid.
You know, in our grid, when welook at the fact that it's
largely non-emitting, when weconsider hydro and consider
nuclear and additional powerfrom wind and solar, you know
we've got quite a fascinatingand wonderful domestic supply of
lower carbon energy.
And I say lower carbon becauseit has to be part of the
solution, because the worldcontinues to need to look at its

(19:45):
impacts on climate.
And just because we're in a newworld where we recognize the
role that natural gas and oilcan play and has played in our
economy, doesn't mean we forgetabout the climate.
And that's going to be wherethe conversations also need to
be had where how do we ensurethat we're providing the
resources the world needs butalso continuing to invest in
technologies that can help usdecarbonize further?

(20:05):
So example could be carboncapture sequestration.
I think it is an example wherethe work that has happened in
Alberta and Saskatchewan to thatend has helped to progress the
technology such that it can alsobecome a global technology and
already is where the world islooking at carbon capture
sequestration.
So I think there's more andmore that we can do in the
Canadian context, domestically,that eventually then can go for

(20:29):
export.
So the Canadian definition ofenergy superpower is all that to
me.

Stewart Muir (20:34):
And it sounds realistic to be able to get
there.

Susannah Pierce (20:36):
It sure does.
And I have to also say it'salso with participation and
investment and equity with FirstNations who are at the table
and are business partners inthis, and business partners
means we all have to becompetitive together in order to
make these businesses last.

Stewart Muir (20:54):
The prime minister has been using a term
decarbonized oil and when hesaid that, I noticed there's
some critics who pop up.
That's impossible.
You can't decarbonize oilInherently it's got carbon in it
.
But he does mean something.
He spent a long time in financeof the green economy, a true
expert.
What does he mean when he usesthat term, and is it a correct

(21:16):
term to use?

Susannah Pierce (21:18):
Well, I think it is a correct term to use.
I mean, again, I would look atthe scope one, two and three
when you really look atemissions profiles and I think
there's the capacity to reducethe emissions from the
production of the energy, butthen becomes the energy that
customers consume and theiremissions would be scope three,
not to get too technical on it.
So I do think when you look atthe potential to use carbon

(21:44):
capture, sequestration andthere's the Pathways Project,
which is going to be working oris working with the major oil
sands producers, that would bedecarbonized oil if that ever
gets going.
Again, the economic conditionsneed to be correct and they need
to be able to get the projectup and running, which I think
they're making headway on.
So I think that is yourdecarbonized oil running, which
I think they're making headwayon.
So I think that is yourdecarbonized oil.
The thing is, too, that when welook at becoming an energy
superpower, we also have torecognize are we doing

(22:12):
everything we can not only toprovide the decarbonized oil but
also ensure that the oil thatis produced is competitive,
because we are price takers inthis.
We can't necessarily sell aproduct that is more expensive
than our competitors, and sothat combination of thinking
also has to be in place when wethink about when we layer on CCS
, carbon capture sequestration.
How does that impact thecompetitiveness of the oil you
know we already sell at adiscount to the US Gulf Coast.

(22:33):
How does that impact the pricecompetitiveness of that oil?
I think there's a solution setthere.
I think there's ways that wecan actually address that, and I
think that's what people likePrime Minister Carney are
working on.
I would expect.

Stewart Muir (22:46):
There's a phrase that I never forget from Daniel
Yergin's writings, the greatenergy historian, which is a
very simple sentence oil alwaysgets to market, and that's just
a rule of the last couple ofhundred years where people have
been using oil, and it's goingto get to market.
So do we want to be a countrythat does that with the oil we

(23:07):
have here is really important.

Susannah Pierce (23:09):
Well, to be a participant in a market where we
do know that the world is stillgoing to need more oil, and you
can look at a number ofdifferent scenarios and say when
is that actually going to startto plateau?
But it's not going to go to zero, at least in my lifetime, and
there's an opportunity forespecially as the global
economies continue to grow,especially given where we see
dependency on oil used todaythat are we going to participate

(23:31):
in that, generate the revenuesback to Canadians, or are we
going to just let that go andlet somebody else generate
revenues for their communities?
That's the question, and thatis a very important question for
us to be having in Canada,because we do have substantial
reserves.
We do need to do it right, wedo need to do it fairly, we do
need to do it in a way thatprotects and mitigates impacts
on the environment no questionat all Provides benefits and

(23:55):
participation for Indigenouscommunities absolutely, and
participation for Indigenouscommunities absolutely.
But we also can't take our eyeoff the goal, which is this oil
needs to be competitive and weneed to make sure that we do it
in a way that again preservesthat, so we do become that
participant more than we alreadyare.

Stewart Muir (24:12):
I think your lens on all this is going to be so
valuable in what you're doingnow.
And when I heard that you weregoing to work with Peter
Terzakian, I just want to tellyou a little about my
appreciation of Peter, becauseI've got to know Peter Terzakian
over the years.
I was on his podcast not toolong ago, but I've visited with
him in his office and in hishome, where he has incredible

(24:37):
interests in the history ofenergy.
But he's a photographer, he'san artist, he's an author, an
economist, an advisor, aninvestor, he's a public speaker,
a podcaster, he explainscomplexity.
He's just a remarkable Canadian.
And that you are going to beable to work with him at
studioenergy is amazing Becausethe two of you together I mean

(25:00):
you bring an astonishinglysuccessful wheelhouse into this.
And here you are partneringwith Peter, so envious and proud
and just proud to know the bothof you.
What is studioenergy all about?

Susannah Pierce (25:18):
Yeah, so studioenergy is something that
really was the vision of Peter,which was to bring people
together to solve problems,solve energy problems, solve
complexity.
And you know what it startedoff as?
Being a table where you couldbring in people from various
companies to tackle an issue,bringing people from various

(25:39):
companies to tackle an issue.
But what he's been able to dowith folks on the team is also
develop a fantastic model butnot only looks at production
scenarios and the overlay ofpolicy and, with that level of
production and policy, what theemissions are, but it also looks
at decisions that need to bemade from investors.
You know, as I said earlier, Imean we can do everything we can
to produce the oil, we can doeverything we can to meet
climate commitments, but if, atthe end of the day, it's not

(26:02):
competitive, then you don'treally have a business.
You're not generating returnsto governments, you're not
generating royalties.
So taking a look at thatcapital investment the investor
component of this is whatPeter's been able to do in a
modeling way, so you canactually take a look at the
price of oil, see what happensin terms of the ability of that
capital then to float back intothe Canadian economy to generate

(26:22):
revenues and royalties lookingat the emissions profiles.
So, collectively, bringing allof this together so you can
start to understand theinfluence and the integration of
each of these individualcomponents.
That's pretty powerful, becausenow you're able to sit at the
table and say, oh, I see, theprice of oil goes up, but then
we have this policy over here,but then all of this elected
capital continues to sit on thesidelines.

(26:44):
There's a problem here.
Why is that elected capital notcoming back into the economy to
invest more, to generate morejobs and revenues and royalties?
It opens a dialogue for problemsolving and answers the
questions around why does thisdilemma exist?
So I actually think the studiohas become a place where you can
have conversations about thesetradeoffs, because that's really
what it's all about.

(27:05):
I mean, I can remember having aconversation with former
Minister Wilkinson and lookingat the difference between
meeting a climate goal well, ascenario in this case and the
impact that might have onoverall production, royalties
and revenues to the Canadianeconomy.
That's a trade-off, that's apolicy discussion, and our
governments are in place tolisten, observe and to make

(27:25):
decisions in that regard.
But my hope with Studio is thatthe decisions that can be made
are being made with datatransparency and an
understanding of theimplications of decisions on
investment in Canada, on jobsand on the competitiveness of
the Canadian economy.
So, coming into the studio,what I wanted to be part of is
something that is nonpartisan,is not driving any corporate

(27:48):
agenda, it's having a place forthat dialogue, for that
conversation data-driven, tohappen.

Stewart Muir (27:55):
And who will want that from you?
Is it a government agency or acorporation?

Susannah Pierce (28:00):
It's a government agency, it's all of
the above, it's corporations.
We all want to have anunderstanding of the trade-off
and these insights.
We all want to be able to playaround with scenarios.
Well, if I do this, whathappens then to this?
Royalties or revenues over here?
That is really where I thinkeveryone can come into the room
and learn and then make betterdecisions.

Stewart Muir (28:19):
This is next level stuff.
There's a lot of folks inCalgary who are pretty good with
their spreadsheets and they'vegot MBAs, but this is different
than energy analysis in atraditional sense, because of
the policy overlay.

Susannah Pierce (28:36):
Yeah, and I think you know, I think
companies who have the capacityto do it will do it.
You know, if they have thecapacity to try and look at
these things, you know,critically and strategically, I
think they could probably do it.
But not everybody has thatcapacity and what we're able to
do is, with Peter's incredibleinsights, experience, bring it
to a place again where we can doit for them and then open up a

(28:57):
dialogue again at a table thatis set for everyone to have a
conversation, not just to feelthat one group is not being
heard over another.

Stewart Muir (29:05):
Yeah, the studio approach, where it suggests the
transmission of knowledge butalso creativity happens in a
studio.

Susannah Pierce (29:13):
And asking questions that you know, my goal
with Peter is that we askquestions and give answers
before people have thought toeven ask them, so that we can
continue to get ahead of some ofthis, and especially right now,
when we're looking at how do wedrive more investments in
Canada, how do we prioritize?
I think there's a place for thestudio to play a role.

Stewart Muir (29:34):
It's very timely in another way.
Not too long ago, there was aletter from 38 Canadian CEOs
from the energy sector and theyput their individual signatures
on.
So it was different than, say,an industry, you know,
collective organization,association doing that.
This was individuals whoseemingly made that decision to

(29:57):
pool their, their kind ofpersonal executive reputation.
So it was a bit unusual.
And what were they saying?
Well, it was a message to thenew prime minister and the new
energy minister, and they hadfive things that they're saying.
If you can address theseconcerns we have, then, prime
minister, your, your vision ofan energy superpower is going to

(30:18):
be possible.
Let's work on this.
Um, so, from the perspective ofsomeone who has now stepped
outside of the, you know, thecorporate uh, you're, perhaps
you're freer to speak your mindthat for yourself than than you

(30:40):
were before Do you have a takeon what the goals are of those
CEOs and also how the primeminister will see this request?
Is it going to be createdwarmly?
I mean, there's been a longtime where such pronouncements
probably weren't appreciated inOttawa.

Susannah Pierce (30:49):
Well, I can't speak for the CEOs and I can't
speak for the prime minister, soI'll just give maybe an opinion
on it.
First of all, I think the CEOsare speaking specifically to the
concerns on their mind, andthey came together in a
collective manner to say hey,here you are in your first days
in office.
We really would like you tounderstand what is holding us
back from doing more in thecountry.

(31:10):
So I think it's perfectly theirprerogative to put that on
paper and send it directly tothe prime minister.
Send it directly to the primeminister.
I'm not for this, primeminister Carney, but when you
have significant investors inthe Canadian economy, like these
CEOs and the companies theyrepresent, I would rather know
what is on their mind than guess.
And so if I was a primeminister, I would say okay, at

(31:31):
least we understand where youare.
Now let me understand where Ican be based on what I need to
consider as the prime ministerof this country.
And I would expect, based onjust even the first few days in
office, that the prime ministeris looking hard at that and
saying, okay, well, what thingscan I potentially move on?
Or, candidly, what things willI move on?

(31:51):
Because these conditions werebefore I came to office.
So I honestly believe that themore that we can actually
communicate with each otheropenly, transparently, and have
a dialogue is better than not,and, like any negotiator, I
would rather understand who I'mnegotiating with and what their
position is rather than guess,because then I can align more
quickly on where I can be.

(32:12):
So in the absence of thatdialogue, we're still two sides
of the ring.
Let's get in the ring that'swhere I think we're getting into
right now in Canada and let'sreally really have a hard
conversation about how do wemove the country forward.
And forward has got to be cleartoo, and I think that there's
increasingly alignment that youknow with what's happened south

(32:33):
of the border.
We need to look at how dependentupon the United States we are,
because there's significantimpacts as a result of a change
in office.
We need to look at thecustomers.
Who do our products in thiscountry serve?
Can we diversify?
Because I think we know thatthere's a world of customers out
there who have asked forcertain products for us.
Can we meet those customerdemands?
You know, I still rememberconversations or flying and

(32:55):
being in Japan, and when youlook at how isolated Japan is
and how dependent they are onother countries for energy, for
example, you can expect thatthey would like to have more
than one supplier of energy.
That's why Canada is sowonderful.
Then let's bring everybodytogether who has a care for this
country and say, okay, what'son your mind and what can we
work together on?
And then what can't I not agreeto?

(33:15):
Because that's a bridge too far, or I need to consider these
other things that are reallyimportant to me as well really

(33:40):
important to me as well.

Stewart Muir (33:41):
It sounds like the studioenergy project has got a
place in advancing towardssolving this You've described.
Parties are far apart.
Still some distance apart,there's sand in the hourglass.
It's running out.
How long do you think the primeminister has before the sense
of optimism that there's a wayto do this will start to erode?

Susannah Pierce (34:02):
Well, I hope that you know.
If I even just go back to ourfirst part of the conversation
here on Allergy Canada, allergyCanada was not a done deal.
When we started, there was alot of hurdles we had to get
over.
We got over those hurdles, butit didn't mean that there
weren't moments in time where wefelt like it wouldn't happen,
or there were challenges we feltwe wouldn't be able to get over

(34:22):
.
Or, you might recall, we had topause a final investment
decision in 2016.
We eventually took it or theyeventually took it in 2018.
So nothing, especially major,complex projects, is for the
faint of heart or done deals.
It's for the faint of heart andor done deals.
But I think what I hear andwhat I'm seeing in Canada,
especially with we see what'sjust happened in Ottawa, you

(34:45):
know passing a bill like C5,where you see alignment across
political perspectives, you seealignment towards doing more to
enable our natural resources toget to market, break down into
provincial trade barriers.
These are positive steps.
Now, granted, there's lots ofconcern over groups that haven't
been represented, and thosethings need to get worked out

(35:06):
for sure, and I know thatthere's lots of folks that still
feel like C5 is not a good bill, but it was a demonstration of
the country coming together toget stuff done, so that gives me
a vote of optimism.
I think the details will stillneed to get worked out as it
moves forward and as projectsbecome part of it, but I would
say let's continue to look atwho we're serving both the

(35:27):
Canadian economy, canadians butCanadians will be served when we
actually have enterprises andbusinesses that can generate
revenues, royalties and jobs.
And those businesses, I thinkincreasingly also have to look
to other markets than just theUnited States, and so that's
also part of this, and I thinkthe countries that are looking
for products from Canada aren'tgoing anywhere.
But we can't be slow about iteither, because they will look

(35:49):
to other markets unless we cancommit to them and, with some
confidence, show that we can getwhat we can produce to market
to them.

Stewart Muir (35:57):
I'm sure you're familiar with the turning point
show on ESPN.
You know there's that moment ina game golf match Was for you
there a kind of ESPN, you know,turning point in the progress of
LNG Canada when you had to havea really tough discussion.
Maybe something had to besacrificed or given up that you

(36:19):
could share.

Susannah Pierce (36:20):
Well, oh goodness, I do think the pause
in 2016 was a really toughmulling for everyone, and that's
a decision which can happenwhere the markets changed or the
joint venture purchase at thispoint weren't sure that the
capital was in place to move theproject forward at that stage.
You know, for whatever thereason, I think for all of us,
you work so hard towards atimeline and then when there's a

(36:42):
pause, that's a realsignificant, that can be a
significant impact, but none ofus gave up.
You know, I can still rememberChief Electrical Intelligence
Ross at the time and hisperspective when he learned from
MediCal as a CEO that this wasgoing to be paused.
It was a moment I'll alwaysremember because the project
meant so much to him and he'dbeen so much a part of it and,

(37:03):
of course, crystal Smithfollowing him, and the community
and and the nation.
Um, I remember that as justbeing a significant moment.
Will this ever happen?
But you know what?
Together as a team, and thecommunity and First Nations, we
all all hung in together.
And I remember also speaking tomy team at the time and saying
you know, in moments wherethere's more uncertainty or

(37:26):
moments where there may bedespair, it's the time when we
need to be more present thanever, and, in fact, that was
where we spent more time incommunity and we were spending a
lot of time anyways but wewanted people to know that we're
still here.
We're still going to worktogether through this.
So don't let the vacuum of whatmight look like project
progress, you know, remove yourhope that this can happen.

(37:49):
And goodness, I mean.
This is like the journey ofmankind.
You know.
It's never been easy.
We've always had ups and downs,and it's like big projects,
it's the same thing.
You'll have ups and downs, butyou need to pick yourself back
up the floor and keep going foranother day.
That's why we've been createdto be resilient, and so that
would be one thing.
And you know, again, I thinkthere's lots of decisions, and

(38:09):
you know we can go down thepermitting front if we wanted to
, but that's too short a callfor that.
Lots of decisions, lots oftrade-offs, but when you're
doing it, as I said before, inan integrated way and we really
did care about the community inFirst Nations you know that
you're looking at complexdecisions with the right level
of input from all stakeholders.

Stewart Muir (38:33):
You've opened a window into almost personalizing
this mega project.
That is kind of a corporateabstract thing.
So you know, thanks for that.
I'm sure there's other storiesand maybe one day you'll write
the book of all of yourincredible experiences.
But, Susanna, just recently I'mjust curious to get your take

(38:56):
on something.
Recently, I'm just curious toget your take on something.
We've seen this fascinatingpublic dialogue between the
Premier of Alberta, Daniel Smith, who is engaging with the
Premier of British Columbia,David Eby, on questions that run
almost to the heart ofConfederation in the view of
some, and at times it feels likewe're seeing this borrowed
theatrical device, you know,where the characters aren't

(39:17):
speaking to each other on stage.
They're speaking individuallyto the audience, but it's a
dialogue because they're notspeaking to each other, they're
speaking through the media.
What is with that?
What's going on?
Where's it going?

Susannah Pierce (39:29):
Oh my goodness.
Well, I think we're in a placetoday where there's lots of
public statements that can bemade.
I mean, if you're the premierof any province, you're probably
not very far from media almostall day long, and so if you're a
public speaking you're going toget asked the question and it's
fair, and I think it'scompletely legitimate that
Premier Smith is reallyinterested in how does she move

(39:52):
more oil from Alberta to market,and so it's a top priority of
hers.
I think we've seen that andwe've heard that.
I think Premier Eby alsorecognizes that.
You know that project, if thereis a new pipeline, will have to
go through British Columbia, andhe cares about British
Columbians, he cares about theFirst Nations, who also will
have a say in all of this.
So you know, I'm not surprisedby it.
To be honest, hardies that aregoing to build the

(40:17):
infrastructure need to reallylook at it hard and then present
a proposal for governments andregulators to decide on and
include the federal government.
So I'm not all that surprisedby it.
I'm also not underestimatingthe complexity of any
infrastructure built today.
Again, I think that's part ofwhy you see interest in
accelerating some of thesecomplex projects, because they
do get mired down in regulatoryprocesses, some of which are

(40:41):
probably not adding any value oroutcome.
So, again, it doesn't surpriseme that you would have premiers
taking a position on things thatare important to them.

Stewart Muir (40:50):
We'll see where it goes.
We're all spectating at thispoint.
Look, susanna, we're here inVancouver, we're in British
Columbia.
Is there a true exceptionalismabout BC from the point of view
of its you know unique history?
It's been, in some ways, maybea flashpoint we've had over the
last decade for major projects.

(41:11):
I mean, think of anothersubnational jurisdiction where
you've got like a hundredbillion dollars in major
projects that are happening atthe same time and I I think
you'd be hard pressed to thinkof a place.
So we've had all of thisactivity here.
It's been a very frothy publicspace for a long time, but it
has been, you know, over decadestoo.
We've had this so-called war inthe woods.

(41:31):
This is the city whereGreenpeace was invented and went
out for mayor.
It was to do with nuclearweapons testing at that time in
the early seventies.
Is there something I mean?
And also the other thing, youknow we have something in common
.
I, you know, I was born inAlberta.
Ray spent most of my life outhere in Vancouver.
You're you're an Albertanoriginally, but you're also a

(41:52):
British Columbian.
Both sides of the Rockies areto me, my home, but sometimes
the Rockies are also thisbarrier between these two
provinces.
Is there a BC psyche?
Is there something that reallydoes make it?

Susannah Pierce (42:08):
different when I moved to British Columbia in
2013,.
I did so because, in part, thatin order to build
infrastructure, I felt I neededto understand the community, the
culture, the place we'rebuilding the infrastructure.
And I used to joke and I thinkthere's some truth to it that

(42:29):
when I moved here, when I readthe newspaper and I read about
the oil and gas industry, Iheard about how bad we are,
whereas in Calgary, when Iopened the newspaper and heard
about the oil and gas industry,I read about how misunderstood
we are.
So I think the difference withBritish Columbia is a lot of
natural resource development isin the north and a lot of the
population is in the south.
So the proximity to it and anunderstanding of it and the

(42:52):
ability to see what comes frominvestment is very remote.
You know, we take energy a lotof it is produced in the North
and we consume it, but we're faraway from it.
It's almost like flipping onyour light switch you never
really think about where theelectron's been generated now,
do you?
Whereas if you're working up inthe North and you turn on your
gas stove, you're like, oh, Iknow where that gas came from.
So the proximity to it, theunderstanding, the relationship

(43:14):
to it is very different than inAlberta, where so much of
Calgary and Edmonton is focusedon the revenues that have been
generated around naturalresources, not only gas.
So much of business works inthose communities or generates
revenue from it.
It's much more proximate.
So I think the proximity andthe familiarity plays a large
role in that.
But I think increasingly,especially given where we are in

(43:36):
, looking at the economicposition of Canada, looking at
our budgets, looking at tariffsand impacts south of the border,
it's a different type ofconversation because the risk
that a lot of the revenues thatwe've been generated could be
impacted has forced us to say,well, where are those revenues
coming from and how bad could itget?
You know one of the best waysto care about energy is to go

(43:56):
without it.
You know one of the best waysto care about revenues is to go
without it and what we've seenis some risks to revenues and to
that end we're now asking thequestion what can we do?
So I think that's made theconversation different.
I think that's why you havemore focus and understanding
around it.
But you know, bc is uniquelydifferent than Alberta.

(44:17):
How BC looks at naturalresources is different than
Alberta.
I think First Nations, themajority of which are not under
treaty in British Columbia isdifferent than Alberta and most
of the rest of Canada.
So of course, bc is different.
But again, I think part of whatwe have to do any of us who are
working in the sector is tomake sure that all communities
understand why we do what we doand what's in it for them and,

(44:40):
in the absence of it, also whatthat means.

Stewart Muir (45:03):
We can forget how privileged we are in this
country.
2050, I'm not worried about2050.
I'm worried about 850, whetherthe grid's going to turn on and
people can have hot water.

Susannah Pierce (45:14):
Two worlds this is maybe a little bit too
personal, but every time I turna hot shower on, I say thanks,
and when I turn the electricityon, especially on a hot, I say
thanks, and we can't take thatfor granted.
In fact, so many people whowork out, for example, even in
BC Hydro, or work up in theNortheast we owe them banks that
we have a certain those whotransmit the energy Like it's,

(45:37):
we do take it for granted.
So much of our economy and ourlives depend on energy.
So you know again, it's goodfor you to raise parts of the
world that don't have this orthat are suffering from the lack
of, you know, available andcleaner energy supplies, that
are suffering from the lack ofyou know, available and cleaner
energy supplies.

Stewart Muir (46:03):
So we do need to recognize, honor that and there
where we can provide thoseresources to those countries.
This could easily be an all-daydiscussion, but currently our
podcast format doesn't allowthat.
The long form is coming back,though, but, susanna, you have
always been associated withdifferent charities.
Over the years, I've, I've,I've, I've seen you, uh, working
in different communities.
Um, really love your devotionto helping others who are trying
to be in that space.

(46:24):
Lately, you found one causethat you're more focused on.
Could you talk about that?

Susannah Pierce (46:29):
Sure, thank you .
Yeah, there's, there's there'sso much need in our communities
and and I am working on is humantrafficking.
And this was something that youknow, I became familiar with
when I started to look at, youknow impacts, you know across
the country and one of thefastest growing crimes in the
country which happened to betrafficking in people.
And you know, a colleague ofmine was very good friends with

(46:55):
Paul Brandt, who's the countrysinger who founded, not In my
City, which is focused onefforts to eliminate human
trafficking in Canada.
So he and I became friends andas I leaned into it more, I
began to realize what an impactit's having, you know, on women
and in particularly,disproportionately, on
Indigenous women and girls.
So I made a commitment a coupleof years ago to say, well, I'm
not going to turn a blind eye onthis, I'm not going to pretend

(47:16):
that it doesn't exist, because Iknow it exists in our
communities, not just the North,but here in Vancouver.
I know that big events you knowcoming up, such as FIFA, will
attract more trafficking.
You can go around some airportstoday many actually in Canada
now more than 30, and you cansee anti-trafficking posters and
stickers so that people who maybe trafficked will find there's

(47:37):
a place for them to go.
So we're beginning to raisemore awareness on it.
But I think part of my leaninginto this is a recognition that
we walk by people on the street.
We recognize that things arehappening in our community and
very often we hurry up and wemove on.
This is one where I said I'mnot going to hurry up and move
on.
So a couple of years ago, withthe Lieutenant Governor at the

(47:58):
time, bc Janet Austin, she and Icame together and he said well,
let's create the BC Network forthe Prevention of Human
Trafficking.
And this is not me jumping inand telling organizations that
have been working on this foryears what to do.
This is me just looking at howcan I connect them together so
that they could have a moreprofound collective impact if
they're all working towards thesame end and, in addition to

(48:19):
that, asking some of mycorporate friends and colleagues
to say, well, what are you nowdoing about this?
Surprisingly, we all have arole to play in this, and so you
saw organizations like YVR stepup right away.
You saw the BC Lions step upright away, and I can keep going
and one by one, you begin tosee, oh, we are doing more than
we think, but now let's makesure that we're collectively

(48:40):
integrating that so that ifsomebody over here is doing one
thing, you leverage that, or ifsomebody has a challenge over
here, you leverage that.
Prince George just signed on tothe BC Network for the
Prevention of Human Trafficking,so it's moving forward.
I think it has more momentumthan ever and I think, again,
it's about working across eachpiece of the human trafficking

(49:01):
life cycle and providing actionby collecting or by connecting
the groups together.
And you know, before I camehere, I was just on one of our
network calls and the level ofenergy is high, the momentum is
high, the sharing is high and so, yes, I think the opportunity
for us to have a significantimpact in this province is high.

Stewart Muir (49:17):
Your skills from your work career seem like
they're a great fit for this.
Is there one thing that peoplecan do?

Susannah Pierce (49:26):
Yeah, I think what people can do is to learn
more so they can look at thingslike Not In my City they can
look at.
You know, even the SalvationArmy has work on this.
You can look at the work thatthe B City they can look at.
You know even the SalvationArmy has work on this.
You can look at the work thatthe BPD is doing.
So it's universally, in anumber of different places is
look to learn more and then youcan become an observer and
perhaps have an impact insomebody being trafficked.

(49:48):
And I think, as mankind each ofus, as humans it's in
humanity's interest for each ofus to keep our eyes open and to
help those who are vulnerable.

Stewart Muir (49:58):
There's a call to action, susanna, it's probably
time to close things out hereand, in a forward-looking way,
say a decade in the future, whenwe go back to these questions
of the connection between howpeople live and the energy
decisions made, the forks in theroad we encounter along the way

(50:19):
.
Is there one thing, onedecision that will allow Canada
to go in a direction thatcreates the things that most
people want?

Susannah Pierce (50:29):
I wish there were just one decision.
I think that there is just onedecision.
I think that there is.
I think there is an opportunityfor Canada to revisit what
Canada is, and I don't mean justfrom the perspective of the
Canadian flag, and we wave itdomestically.
I think the world is looking toCanada and say what is Canada,

(50:49):
what do you stand for and how doyou participate globally?
We have a real opportunity toredefine that, or maybe make
that clearer, so that we can bevery proud and we can continue
to be very proud of what we are,what we stand for, and that our
Canadian economy is prospering,which enables all people in

(51:09):
Canada to prosper.
So I think the redefinition,the alignment of who we are and
what we stand for, I think isthe great opportunity in front
of us.

Stewart Muir (51:17):
Do you think Canadians are ready for that?

Susannah Pierce (51:18):
I think we are.
I mean, I would just say thislast bit, like I remember
looking at an Angus Reid polllate last year, which showed
that the level of, I think,canadian patriotism or alignment
was at an all-time low.
And then, of course, whathappened a couple of months
later?
It shot right back up becausewe were reminded that we need to

(51:39):
have an identity, because wewere being targeted, and that
made us align together more thanwe ever have and we started to
ask okay, well, now what do westand for and how do we act
differently and how do we nottake the things that we've taken
for granted for granted goingforward?
So, yeah, I think there's ahuge opportunity and I think
there's lots of folks that areworking towards that end.

Stewart Muir (52:00):
Susanna Pierce, it's been an incredible
discussion, a long time in thepreparation and I'm glad you're
here last today, so thanks.

Susannah Pierce (52:08):
It's wonderful to be here, tara, thanks for
coming in.
Thank you.

Stewart Muir (52:11):
This has been Power Struggle.
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