June 4, 2025 • 44 mins
We all face crossroad moments – in life and in our marketing careers. In this episode, we explore what it means to lead with intention when brands face moments of choice. How do emotions influence the way we react in these moments? Does an emotional reaction enhance our customer relationships? Jez Rose, renowned behaviorist and advisor to Fortune 100 companies, joins us to unpack whether marketers can really influence consumer emotions, or if their emotions drive us.
If you want to hear more from Jez, find him on his website, thatjezrose.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Jez Rose (00:00):
Creating experiences that are intentional is about
(00:03):
being in the moment. And that'sthe only way that we can connect
with people.
Brian Rowley (00:21):
Welcome to Prose + Comms, Engagement Unplugged.
Today's a conversation all aboutcrossroads moments. And I'm
Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith (00:29):
And I'm Laura Smith. Today, we're going to dig
into a topic that most marketerswill face at some point in their
career. What happens when yourbrand finds itself at a
crossroads? These moments canshow up in all kinds of ways.
Maybe it's a rebrand, a shift inbusiness strategy, or responding
to a crisis.
Sometimes just keeping up withcustomer expectations. And when
you're in the middle of it, thebig question becomes, how do you
(00:50):
decide what to do next?
Brian Rowley (00:52):
And I think, Laura, that's actually a really
interesting part of it. Right?Like how much does emotion play
into those decisions? And whenis it smart to play it safe? And
when is it worth sort of takinga risk?
And today we're actually joinedby a really, a very special
guest of ours, someone who sortof helped some of the world's
biggest brands sort of rewirehow they think about
(01:15):
performance, perspective,people, and the ways in which
they connect with customers. Andwe'll explore everything from
brands taking risks toinfluences that they have, and
how they help people or ways inwhich they make people feel.
Laura Smith (01:31):
But before we get into the heart of today's
episode, we're kicking thingsoff with something we call In
the Moment. Are you ready? It'sa quick take that ties in
today's theme and gets us allthinking. Since we're talking
how emotion influencesdecisions, here's one we're
gonna start with. Brian, what'sthe best ad or commercial that's
ever gripped your emotions?
Might have made you laugh, tearup, or just take action?
Brian Rowley (01:52):
Well, I think anybody that actually knows me
knows that I'm a big, big fan ofthe Nike brand. And I think one
of the most powerful ads thatI've seen from them was one that
they did in regards to findingyour greatness. And it was all
centered around just ordinarypeople doing extraordinary
things and encountering sort ofobstacles, but not only just
(02:16):
obstacles, but actually how theyovercame them. And it was
actually kind of interestingbecause Nike did this at a point
where I believe they were notselected as one of the sponsors
or chose not to be a part of theOlympics. And the reason they
came out with this particular adwas to show that it doesn't
always require a medal in orderfor you to get your greatness,
(02:37):
that people can achieve thatevery day.
And it was just some reallypowerful things in ways in which
people sort of overcame thoseobstacles. So it was actually
one of my favorites andcontinues to be. And I think
Nike in general does a reallygood job when it comes to their
ads and making them reallypersonal and creating sort of
that emotion within its viewers.But I'm curious, how about
(02:58):
yourself?
Laura Smith (02:59):
Well, before I dive in, what was the emotion you
feel though when you when youlisten to that ad or you watch
that ad? Like, is it?
Brian Rowley (03:05):
I think it's just it's a moment of just
accomplishment, to be honestwith you. Like you felt like
things, anything was achievable.I mean, that's obviously what it
was, right? Achieving greatness.But it was actually just it was
accomplishment and seeing peoplewho had various challenges be
able to overcome that and theemotion that it incurred in them
in doing that was really, reallypowerful.
(03:28):
So let's not skip my question,which you do all the time, but
let's just get back to and howabout yourself?
Laura Smith (03:35):
Okay. So mine was our surrounding World Mental
Health day, and it's of twogentlemen watching a Norwich
City football club. They go intothe game week to week. They have
seats next to each other. Andevery week, one gentleman comes
in and and kind of, like, triesto talk to the guy next to him,
and the guy next to him isalways pretty, he's just
melancholy.
He's really chill. He's notsuper happy, whereas the
(03:56):
gentleman that we're focused onis really, like, super excited,
cheering, standing, yelling. Andevery week to week to week, they
kinda play that role. One'ssuper happy and into the game.
One's just pretty chill and justnot really super happy.
And in the end, that that reallyhappy gentleman doesn't show up
to the game. And what it seemsto be is he's no longer with us,
and it just really struck thatcord of, know, mental health is
(04:17):
around us. You know, mentaleveryone has mental not
everybody, but people havemental health issues, and we
don't always know it. So it juststruck a cord because it's a
really common theme today, andwe know this. And whether people
in your lives directly or peoplethat may be, you know, extended
family or friends may have someissues, it's just so important
to remember that you may notknow that someone has an issue.
So it just struck the cord oflike, wow. That's reality. You
(04:38):
know? And so, it wasn't like,you know, the happiest ad, but
it definitely felt like this isa real life situation, and they
brought it into a a veryrelatable environment and
something that people could takeaway and probably, like, you
know, pause and just think, wow,maybe I should pick up the phone
and call somebody to make surethey were okay.
Brian Rowley (04:54):
Yeah, it's definitely one of those topics I
don't think we talk enoughabout. And I can tell you that
experiencing it in my family andhaving gone through that and
some of what happens to thosethat are impacted by some of the
mental health issues that areout there. They do just need
people to talk about it. Like itdoesn't change everything. It
doesn't make things go away.
(05:16):
But just having a conversationand feeling like it's okay to
have that conversation doeschange that. So I applaud any
brand, any company, anyorganization that's actually
bringing awareness to thatbecause I think more needs to,
to sort of help those peoplethat really do struggle every
day with it.
Laura Smith (05:35):
Yep, agreed. Okay. That was our In the Moment
segment. I wanna say it was fun,but it was also very much the
reality. So that was a goodexchange, Brian.
So it is amazing how certain adscan still sit with us after
time, right? The ad that I'mtalking about, I think may have
been a year old and it wasn'teven really a brand or, like,
why don't watch football? Butit's something that obviously
(05:56):
stuck with me and similarly foryou, Brian. And that emotional
pull is exactly what we'rediving into today. We're talking
about what happens when brandsfind themselves at a crossroads
and how emotions shape thosepivotal decisions.
Brian Rowley (06:07):
Yeah. And I mean, we're really fortunate today to
have and to welcome Jez Roseonto our show. For those of you
that don't know Jez, he's a bestselling author. He's written
multiple books on businessleadership, customer experience,
and strategies for careersuccess. He's worked with, you
know, a ton of Fortune 100companies helping business
(06:28):
leaders sort of shift theperspective and a path for
growth, innovation andresilience.
But I will tell you personally,I had the honor of having Jez
actually keynote speak a meetingthat I held at one time. And I
will say that it was one of themost impactful keynotes that
(06:49):
I've attended. And it wasn'tjust my perspective, but it was
also those that were there hadgiven me that same feedback. So
Jez, welcome to the show, superhappy to have you.
Jez Rose (07:01):
It was a lovely introduction. Thank you very
much. I'm excited for thisreally because this will be, if
this goes well, it will be thefirst time that I will not end
up in the ER as a result ofworking with you, Brian. I was
Brian Rowley (07:15):
gonna let that go, but thanks for bringing that up.
Laura Smith (07:17):
Yes, that is the point,
Jez Rose (07:18):
isn't it? You were gonna let it go. Thank you for
having me. I'm delighted to behere.
Brian Rowley (07:24):
Yeah. So I mean, you know, Jez one of the things
and one of the things that waswhy we wanted to have you be a
part of this was obviously youtalk a lot about creating
intentional experiences. And Iwas hoping that you, for our
audience, could explain exactlywhat you mean by that. And what
role does intentionality playwhen we're sort of standing at a
(07:48):
crossroads?
Jez Rose (07:50):
That's a very good question. I am a big advocate of
conscious living, and there area number of reasons for that.
Firstly, 47% of our waking timeis spent on autopilot. We're not
consciously thinking about whatwe're doing. And that to me is
remarkable.
That means that 50% of almost50%, almost half the time that
(08:10):
we're awake, we're not evenaware of what we're doing. We're
not conscious of it, whichprobably explains some of the
people you work with, perhaps Idon't know. And so this notion
of being present and in themoment is a core part of my
life, always has been. I've beena Buddhist since I was 15. It
(08:30):
sort of dipped in and out ofthat practice.
And it's a core part ofBuddhism, this notion of being
very much in the present moment.However, park that to one side
for a second. From a sort ofbehavioral perspective, all
human behavior is explained byantecedents, behavior and
consequence. So antecedents isthe thing that causes behavior,
(08:52):
the sort of trigger. And thenevery behavior has a
consequence.
That's the ABC of humanbehavior. Well, if we're not
conscious, if we're not sort ofcreating an intentional
experience, and I'll come tothis in a second in a bit more
detail, we're not ever gonna beconscious of what the
consequences are we? So veryoften we just respond, we just
(09:12):
react. Somebody says something,a cutting remark, a very quick
email. You don't pause and thinkabout what the consequence might
be or what the best response is.
We just do it all the time. Sowhy is it important? Because
we're going to die, Brian.Everybody is going the same
direction. And we don't like totalk about it.
(09:34):
And so we just pretend that it'snot going to happen. And then we
just let life happen to us. Andwhat began to frustrate me, I
lost a lot of people in my lifevery early on. So I've always
been very hypersensitive to lifeand living it and it's
fragility. And Laura made thepoint of that advert is an
awesome advert.
(09:54):
I've seen it so many times andthe lovely twist at the end, you
should go seek it out or add itinto the show notes or
something. Doesn't go where youthink it's gonna go. But why is
it that life only changes forpeople when someone dies? Why do
we have to wait to get a cancerdiagnosis and then go, gosh,
that was a close call. I shouldchange my life now.
Why is it that we have to loseour dad and go, oh gosh, maybe
(10:17):
I've been too busy making aliving and not spending enough
time making a life. Why do wewait? So we've got to ask more
questions. Now, if we're moreintentional, the only way we're
gonna be able to do that is tobe in the moment. This moment
right now, as I am talking, asyou are listening to my voice is
the only moment that we have anyguarantee of.
(10:38):
Everything that happened before,we can't do anything about.
There's no guarantee aboutwhat's gonna happen in the
future. Literally this momenthere is it. We got to wake up
this morning. There was a ton ofpeople that didn't and a ton of
people that didn't expect not towake up this morning either.
Right? So when you're at thatcrossroads, you have to be in
(11:00):
the moment in order tounderstand and appreciate what
is the direction you can go in.Because we've all made those
long plans in business, in life,emotionally, spiritually,
financially. The road is neverstraight. You never go from A to
B.
You go A, 8.1, eight point five,seven, D tour via G, backfire H,
(11:24):
double skip over Zed, we didn'tthink we were gonna get there.
Oh, back to B again. It's neverin a straight line. So
intentionality and creatingexperiences that are intentional
is about being in the moment.And that's the only way that we
can connect with people.
We can't connect to people'sfuture or people's past because
it hasn't happened. What mattersto me now is absolutely not
(11:46):
what's gonna matter to me innine minutes time possibly,
certainly in three months time.So now is all that matters. Does
that sort of make sense?
Brian Rowley (11:54):
No, it definitely makes sense. And I think the
interesting part of it is, if wetruly live in the moment, there
are plenty of warning signs, Iwould say before those traumatic
moments happen. But I thinkwe're so distracted that we
don't always pay attention tothose. And as a result of that,
it takes that very traumaticmoment. And the example that you
(12:17):
gave, the loss of life, right?
Before someone actually makes achange. But I guarantee you that
there were plenty of otherthings that happened prior to
that. That could have beenmoments for someone to pivot
where they may not have.
Jez Rose (12:32):
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, in commercially, we talk a
lot about, I encourage people tohave a plan B to come up with
what's your plan B. In fact, itwas a time when I was going call
my business plan B. Then when Imoved to The States, I realized
it probably wasn't the bestbusiness name. And I asked a ton
of people in cafes and stuff,I'd lean over and say, Hey, I'm
(12:54):
sorry to interrupt you.
But if I say plan B, what doesthat like, what's the first
thing that comes sort of comesup? And I realised that probably
asking young couples thatquestion seemed a bit pointed
from a stranger. They was it wasas if I was judging their, you
know, life dream or During
Brian Rowley (13:10):
the cafe too.
Jez Rose (13:11):
And I realized that plan B probably was the best.
Laura Smith (13:13):
Top winning focus groups at better cafes. Yes,
Jez Rose (13:16):
with random people. So the thing about this idea of
plan B, what happens if it's notgonna work out? Then I tell them
to scrap plan A. Because ifyou've got plan B, why would you
go with plan A? Because plan Bis look to all the ways that
plan A won't work to create aplan that's more solid.
(13:38):
And if we were more conscious,if we were more intentional, if
we were more aware and alert ofwhat was going on moment by
moment, I mean, when that studycame out to show that 47% of our
waking time were on autopilot, Ijust thought that explains
everything. All the road rageexplains all of that. The idiots
that just do random stuff andyou think, what on earth did you
do that for? The emails that youthink, that wasn't very well
(14:01):
worded, or I don't understandwhat they mean, or things that
people say and do, but also ouremotional regulation as well,
right? So I think whether it'swork or home or deeply internal
for you, deeply personal, beingmore intentional just means
(14:22):
being more in the presentmoment, and we get so much more
control.
Laura Smith (14:27):
Jez, let's bring it back to, like, brands. Right? So
do you think they most brandsare intentional? Do you think
that they plan for that plan b,or do you think they spend more
time reacting to what'shappening around us to then try
to get ahead of it? Like, thatmental health ad, for example.
Right? So that was somethingthat we know is happening. So
but that could have beenreactive because mental health
has always been something that'sbeen around us for quite some
(14:49):
time, just wasn't discussed asoften. So do you think brands
that react are the ones thatare, like, losing out, or do you
think those brands should begetting ahead of it? And if so,
do we think that happens moreoften than not?
Jez Rose (15:03):
That's a really interesting point. You ever been
in a conversation and you go tosay something and then you don't
say it, but then other peoplesay, no. No. No. Go on.
Go on. What what are you gonnasay? And you say, no. So the
moment's passed now. Doesn'tmatter.
We overthink being human. Andlook, risk involves
consequences, right? But rarelyare they permanent. So do brands
lose more if they wait? Yeah, Ithink they lose more edge, more
(15:26):
long term connection withcustomers or users because we
aren't necessarily consciouslyaware that we are living in the
moment, but we are.
And so if you can directlyconnect with people in their
moment, in the moment, in thismoment, I mean, it's how all of
really mainstream media works.Right? If you've ever had a
(15:48):
press release set up and you'vebeen very excited about your big
launch that's happening onMonday, all the press releases
have gone out, you've your radiointerview set up. And then on
Sunday, something catastrophichappens. Well, suddenly your
press release is gonna getpushed to right at the bottom
and you're done and dusted.
No one's interested anymore. Sowe can live like that because
brands can think a little moreabout taking an educated risk. I
(16:12):
think we've just got to I havereal concerns and issues and
quite outspoken about and quiteopinionated probably as well,
although it comes from the sortof educated background of
experience that we aredehumanizing the way that we
connect with consumers andcustomers. We're far too focused
(16:35):
on logistics and processes andall that kinds of, making it
easy for the brand under theguise of making it easy for
customers. But I think, yeah,you lose, I think long term you
lose customers.
There I've said it, Laura. You
Brian Rowley (16:53):
got your answer. Script it. But just in that
sense, right? You know, doesemotion actually influence those
decisions sort of at thosecritical times? And I mean, from
a business perspective, if youlook at that, right?
How does a business factor insome of these emotional elements
sort of when they're shapingthose customer interactions?
Jez Rose (17:14):
I wrote about this in one of the books, I think it was
Fit the Switch. I can't rememberwhich one, but back in The US
when television was firstreleased mainstream and invented
and offered as this thing, thisnew thing you can have in your
home, it's called a television,you'll love it. The pushback was
(17:36):
we don't have time to watchtelevision. Like why would
anybody We're not gonna have thetime for that. We listened to
the radio in the evening andthis sound clip is
contextualized within the timefor what I'm about to say.
All the men were away being verybusy at work, earning the income
for the household. The womenwere at home, keeping the house,
raising the children. Nobody hadany time to watch television.
(17:58):
What a stupid invention. Fastforward to 2015 is the last stat
I have, which admittedly is tenyears old.
But when you listen to the stat,you'll know that it's worse now.
The average American watchedfive hours of television a day.
So, or we in America, I shouldsay, because that makes it sound
(18:18):
like it's bit us and them. Lookwhat happened last time we got
into that. You ended up takingthe country from us.
The point is that all the time,emotions are influencing our
decision making. Whether we'retired or not tired, or whether
(18:39):
we're hungry, or whether we havecore unmet needs. Businesses
particularly need to think aboutat what point are they
interacting with a customer andhow are they likely to be
feeling? Because we're driven byemotion, but we're not great at
being in touch with ourselves,let alone regulating our own
emotion. When we're tired, welikely reach for easy solutions,
(19:03):
instant help.
And that becomes habitualbecause as a species, we
naturally don't want to preserveenergy. So then we get led to be
lazy by brands. So it's all verywell saying, okay, this is my
target market, for example, orthis is where we're gonna
capture our customers. But atwhat point, like what time in
the morning, what are theylikely to be wrapped up in at
(19:24):
that time that you're connectingwith them? What are the stress
levels likely to be?
What time differently perhapscould you, a different time
could you connect with thosepeople or a different place? Is
it on the move? In which caseyou've gotta think about traffic
and busyness and stimulation,and perhaps it's better that we
capture these people whenthey're at home and relaxed. And
those emotional elements arewhere if you find you were
(19:46):
talking earlier about supersuccessful brand campaigns that
make an emotional impact. Well,there are sort of classically
babies and children, Sorry.
Babies and animals are alwaysgonna trigger emotions. Cute and
fluffy and cute and vulnerable.Right? So those are given. And
(20:07):
then you can add into that sickchildren.
And then you've got the sort ofholy grail of the emotional
triggers, right? Those threeelements are always gonna
trigger customers' needs. Thoseare the three areas that people
give most to charitably. So ifyou can do it that simply, it
just takes a tiny bit morethought, doesn't it? To work out
(20:28):
what are these people feelingwhen they're doing the thing
that we want them to be doing.
And all of the successful brandcampaigns do that. If you look
at them from a behavioralperspective, they've got that
extra edge to them. They've gotthat extra element that they've
thought about.
Laura Smith (20:42):
Well, that's what was gonna say is, you know, do
you think brands know thatthey're doing that? Do they
think that you think that theyknow that they're they have the
ability to escalate emotions orchange someone's emotions? Like,
yes, they take intoconsideration potentially the
emotions, but do you think theyget it? You know, do you think
that they really do it for theright reasons, to help play into
(21:04):
trying to get a response out ofout of consumers or whoever
they're trying to attract?Because I think I I get what
you're saying.
They know it's dogs or pets andkids, but do they really
understand sometimes whenthey're putting on a brand
campaign for their own benefit,right, trying to drive business?
Do they understand what they canactually do and how they can
(21:25):
affect consumer behavior?
Jez Rose (21:27):
They'll say they're aware of it, but they're not.
Here's an example. You needcustomer support for something.
You won't find a telephonenumber because you're pushed to
an online chat. If you're lucky,you get to a human.
If you're really lucky, you geta phone number. What's the first
message you hear when you ringcustomer support? We're
experiencing an overwhelmingnumber of calls. No, you're not.
(21:49):
You're experiencing the samenumber of calls you'd always
had.
You're just not employing enoughstaff. It's as simple as that.
So most companies stopped trulycaring about customer service a
long time ago. There was amassive shift at COVID. And
since COVID, it's never changed.
No one making these decisionshas been through the customer
journey. That's evident. Howdoes the customer feel is not a
(22:09):
question enough organisationsask. I've worked and consulted
with 93 of the Fortune 100businesses. I've spent twenty
two years as a behavior advisorfor the corporate industry.
We are sentient beings. There'sfar too much weight and thinking
on customer flow and efficiency,which actually is about taking,
(22:31):
sorry, about managing customerseasier for the company. It's
nothing to do with the customerthemselves and not nearly enough
consideration on how we'remaking people feel. So, yeah, I
think brands unintentionallyescalate emotion, but they don't
understand why they're doing itor how they're doing it. But
(22:55):
they also have the role to easethat as well.
It's just that the problem withall of this area, Laura, is that
I don't know where Brian's gone.Problem with all of this, Laura,
well, It's
Laura Smith (23:06):
his nap time. This is what I Thanks
Brian Rowley (23:08):
for waking me up. Sorry. I just got a little a
little jazz. Go ahead. Keepgoing.
This is riveting. When I say
Jez Rose (23:17):
when I say I'd love to say I've missed you. When I say
this, I mean psychology,behaviour, all of these slightly
more cerebral elements ofcustomer. The problem is, Laura,
it's really different. There'snothing tangible. If I say make
that orange, that widget, thatcolor, that brand, that
whatever, and 9% more people aregonna click on it, right?
(23:40):
Then you can visually see that,you can see the difference and
then you can metrically supportit as well. We're talking about
feelings and thoughts, they'revisceral, right? There's nothing
tangible. They're just, you'rerelying on the hope that you
know about that emotion. And soit's difficult.
You have to wait and businessesaren't very good at waiting
(24:02):
anymore. We kind of
Brian Rowley (24:03):
want
Jez Rose (24:03):
instantaneous ROI or at least some confirmation about
that. So I think that's why wedon't see it as much, but my
concern is, look what happenedto the re offending rate, both
in The US and The UK, I havefigures for. And the re
offending rate is insane, whichtells you that when people go to
(24:26):
prison, it's not an effectivepunishment because they carry on
re offending. So the system isbroken. And why?
Well, I can tell you that, andany psychologist and
behaviourist will tell you why,because the punishment comes way
too late after the behaviour.And that big gap there doesn't
link the punishment directlywith the behaviour. So, you
know, if I tripped up an oldlady and ran off with her
(24:48):
handbag and got punched in theface, it's unlikely I would do
that again anytime soon. If Itrip up an old lady, run off of
her handbag and nine monthslater, have to spend some time
in jail, there's a whole ninemonths where I've enjoyed my
life. Right?
And the cash and the boiledsweets. So there are issues, I
think, linking that the brandshave, with linking what's
(25:08):
happening in this moment, inthis time, and what's the result
of it. And that gap there is Ithink difficult for them to see
the point in engaging withanything like emotion or asking
about how customers feel. So Ithink they will blame customer
complaints on, I don't know, theprocess isn't smooth enough or
(25:30):
something, but it's not. It'sjust because you really rile me
up when I've got a problem andyou're not gonna help me, but
you actually make it moredifficult for me to find
somebody to help me.
I've gotta go to a bot and thenI've gotta ask the bot speak to
a human. And then I've got tospeak to a human who goes nine
minutes of questions. So I needto go, oh, you want a paper
month plan? Oh, sorry. We onlydo the pay as you go.
(25:51):
You need to call this numberinstead.
Brian Rowley (25:53):
But Jez, where do you think the line is between
customer experience andemotional well-being, right?
Like because there's definitelya line I think that brands sort
of hover over, right? Where,okay, we have we're worrying
about frustrating aggravation,all of those types of things.
(26:13):
But where is that line or isthere not a line? We're on a
podcast.
We've
Laura Smith (26:26):
got little bit of a I
Jez Rose (26:30):
don't know how, well, no, I'm gonna be honest. I've
decided this year is my year ofauthenticity.
Brian Rowley (26:37):
Strap Yeah.
Laura Smith (26:39):
Shall we get ready to mute?
Brian Rowley (26:41):
Yeah. Yes. I'm ready. I'm ready.
Jez Rose (26:44):
So the social media industry had a big wake up call
to this, right? Social media isever evolving. It's new to all
of us. It's changing how wethink and feel and behave,
interact, socialise. And it's anew cause of fear of missing
out, FOMO, depression andsuicide, right?
So those are majorresponsibilities and issues. And
(27:05):
therefore the social mediaindustry had to, they were
forced to think about emotionalwell-being. They didn't get a
choice of that. Right? Now theydidn't intend to create
something that would make usfeel more depressed and horrible
and make our lives for somepeople difficult, but at the
same time, for some peoplebrilliant.
Now you've got this weirdincongruence, right? There's
this thing that is as brilliantas it is tragic. But behind
(27:30):
anger, if I feel angry or youfeel stressed, for example,
there are a ton of otheremotions like jealousy and
sadness and frustration,helplessness, shame, feeling
overwhelmed. These are allcauses of that anger or stress.
We respond to the anger or thestress that the initial thing
(27:52):
that we present, but the causeof it is what we need to be
addressing.
So what do we do with thosefeelings? Well, most people
reach outward to resolve orcomfort them. We buy things for
the alpha brainwave and dopaminehere, even though it's short
lived, We'll eat comfort foods,we reach outwards, right? We see
a whole wealth of marketingthat's preying on our emotional
(28:13):
needs, making it easier to buy,easier to consume, and therefore
easier to cover everything upinstead of dealing with our need
to rediscover our core unmetneeds. So yeah, brands need to
take much more ownership of theemotional well-being of their
customers if they want to bebetter people and live more
(28:35):
ethically.
But try telling that to a boardof investors who only care about
money because they don'tunderstand what truly matters in
life and that some of thehappiest people alive have
nothing. So I know that's quitea sort of a pointed answer, and
it's not opinionated, you know,that's sort of fact. It's a
(28:57):
little broad, but it is fact. Sowill they is an interesting
question. I suspect not.
I think we've still got a bitlonger for this. We need the
equivalent of the social mediaissue. I just hope it doesn't
get to the point that there'sthis tonne of evidence that
suggests that brands or viacertain marketing makes people
desperately unhappy. And thenwe've had to cause a lot of pain
(29:19):
in order to say, oh, actually,maybe we should do a bit
different. But the only thing Idon't know about The US, the
only thing we have in The UK isthe advertising standards
agency, agency, but really theyregulate sort of over promising
or sort of false messaging orsomething.
Not necessarily the ethics of,is this the right thing we
should be doing? I mean, if youthink about it also, look at the
(29:42):
sort of trend that we had foryears, the misogynistic trend of
scantily clad women draped overcars or something to sell the
cars to men. Well, it wasn't thesort of emotional well-being
that we thought about. It wasequality actually, wasn't it? It
was, well, isn't that a bitderogatory towards women and
derisory?
(30:02):
And so again, that came from adifferent perspective to
challenge that. So I think it'sa really interesting question.
Where is the line betweencustomer experience and
emotional well-being? And Iwould argue there isn't one,
because if we start separatingthings as important as emotional
well-being, well, then itbecomes an other, doesn't it?
(30:25):
And it isn't other.
It's one. The customer'sexperience is their emotional
well-being. Right. Whether it'sthere or whether or not.
Laura Smith (30:34):
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to. But I know as,
like, for my own customerexperience perspective, right,
if I have a great experience,you know, someone I send an
email. I do something. Iinteract. I want, like, some
refund.
I want something a problem to besolved, and that is solved very
seamlessly. I am an happyperson, and I'm on my way to do
(30:56):
other things in life. Sure.Opposite of that, if it's a
really frustrating experience,that could affect my whole day.
Brian Rowley (31:02):
You know?
Laura Smith (31:02):
I'm set off in a way. So it's it's what you're
saying is a %, I can I canrelate as a consumer myself that
it doesn't it can really it canreally shift my mindset? And
being in marketing, of course,you even get more frustrated
because you understand howimportant customer experience
is. But as a consumer, I'd agreethat it could make me a happier
person because I just had awonderful experience, or it
(31:24):
could turn my day around becauseI just dealt with so much
frustration. Mhmm.
Even though that's in mypersonal life, but then it
brings back in even into myprofessional life where I've
gotta now, you know, be happywith the people I work with and
just pretend like that doesn'thappen. But it's hard to
control, I would say.
Brian Rowley (31:39):
But I also think the other side to it too is we
spend a lot of time focused onexperience. But I think when you
boil that back to truly get tothe root of emotional
well-being, I'm not sure thatthere's a lot of brands that are
out there to be honest, that sitthere and say, I wonder what the
longer term impact of thiscontact with this customer would
(32:01):
actually be. They think about itfrom the immediacy of will it
trigger a buying behavior andnot think about the longer term
side to things. So I think it'sa very different perspective in
regards to marketing as a wholethat I'm not sure a lot of
brands and at every moment thinkabout, or even think about it
(32:22):
all, to be honest.
Jez Rose (32:24):
Yeah, I would agree. And that sort of feeds into a
bigger, wider social issue,doesn't it? You know, we're
being driven to become actuallymore selfish. We don't think
about us broadly anymore. Wethink about me.
What's in it for me? What's the,and that has much wider social
and political issues as well. Soshould they? Yeah, I think they
(32:46):
should. Why?
Because you, I mean, there's anethical thing. There's all of
the good stuff, right? Butsomeone's gonna say, well,
that's optional. But thencustomer service used to be
optional for a long time. It wasif you've got time, don't forget
to smile or say, have a good dayor whatever.
Then of course the rise of powerof customers came. We went
through that transition ofpeople moving with their feet.
(33:06):
All industries became much morecompetitive due to social media
landscapes and the change incommerce. And so now we had
greater competition. So peoplelike to work harder for customer
attention, let alone customerbuying power.
And so customer service is theobvious thing, as Laura said,
let's make people feel greatabout our brand and also make
(33:28):
them feel even better aboutdealing with us. I think we're
in what I would call the usedcar sales period of consumerism
right now. So the thing is whenyou buy a car, I mean, you're
the you're like the Messiah whenyou walk into a car showroom,
aren't you? I mean, they couldnot be happier to see you. They
are like, absolutely.
(33:49):
Would you like coffee, flowers?Let me be all over you. Lick
your ears. I see you've got abit of wax in there. Let me get
in there with the tip of mytongue.
They're all over. Take yourpants off, sir. I'll I'll I'll
eye in those. You know, theythey could not be, oh, your
hands look a little chafed. I'vegot some moisturizer.
Come here. Let me give you alittle manny. They're all over
you. They would do anything toget that car. You drive out of
the showroom and something goeswrong with that car, you are the
(34:12):
scum on their shoe.
Like, who the hell when you goin and you will get spat at for
coming back. Who do you thinkyou are coming back here? You've
got the car, you little Cretan.And that I think is possibly
come over a little opinionatedthere.
Brian Rowley (34:29):
Just a skosh.
Laura Smith (34:29):
A little bit? A little bit over the line.
Stepped up for the line a
Brian Rowley (34:33):
few times there.
Jez Rose (34:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Laura talking about lines.
Yeah. Yeah. What a deep seatedirony. So, but the point is that
sort of for me feels like thegeneral temperature check of all
experience at the minute. We'redesperate to get the customer in
at the top end.
We'll do anything. That lovelybrand experience, the marketing,
(34:54):
the soft landing, the sale, thediscount, the sexy packaging,
and then the lights go off. Soonas something happens or you need
to speak to, you need tointeract with that organization,
it is not easy. And you'reright, Laura, the ones that
stand out, bizarrely, one ofthem for me is a bank, is an
online bank. Phenomenal.
The last place you would thinkanybody would be useful. And I
(35:17):
think we're in that period for abit longer until people start
again, consumers move for theirfeet or talk. And so sort of to
your point about this notion of,what was your point you were
making, Brian? No, aboutexperiences. I think it's
important because it directlyfeeds into customer service and
(35:40):
customer experience.
I mean, they don't know, this isthe thing, it's deeply clever
psychology this. I'm just tryingto think in my head, how
comfortable I feel about sharingthis because it sort of feels a
little, I could understandsomebody pushing back and
saying, is this sort ofdeceptive or brainwashing or
whatever? But as I'm not beingpaid for this podcast, which I
(36:03):
think I have raised once ortwice before, I'll say it
anyway. Think, if you know howsomeone feels at any given time
or the risk of how they couldfeel or how you need them to
feel, you can do lots ofdifferent things to be able to
(36:25):
mould and manage and shape thatexperience for the better in
order to enhance the overallexperience they have with you
now, but long term, because youever see like those movies, I'll
stop talking in second. Iappreciate this is a long
answer, but you ever see thosemovies where they drop something
into the water and suddenlyeverybody loves a brand or it's
(36:49):
like sort of those disaster, notdisaster movies.
It's like a, there is a movie Iwatched, can't think of what it
is, but they gave everyone apill or added something to the
water or food or something. Andit secretly changed people's
brain and made them all lovethis particular product or
something and sort of, you know,brainwash them all to buy it. It
is sort of the equivalent ofthat in so much that we can
(37:12):
encourage people to feeldifferently about something. And
they won't know why, but they'llfeel much more aligned and safe
with that brand. And I think allof everything we've spoken about
today comes really back to thatword.
It's about making consumers feelsafe.
Brian Rowley (37:29):
But I think, Jez, and this is a whole other
conversation, but I think itdoes also go back to
authenticity. Because I can giveyou an example. Starbucks just
recently went into a mode wherethey write nice messages on the
cups as people are handing themout and there's hearts on them
and there's have a great day andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that works really, reallywell when the person who's doing
(37:52):
it is smiling when they're doingit. Right.
But when that same person handsyou the cup with the little
heart that says have a great dayand they grunt at you. Right. It
doesn't work. I think you alsohave to instill this
understanding throughout theculture of the organization, not
just in the way that youapproach it from a marketing
(38:15):
perspective, because again, itgoes back to, and I know you've
talked about this for a longtime, but the authentic side to
it is also needs to be apparentand needs to come through.
Otherwise it just doesn't work.
Jez Rose (38:27):
Yeah, I would agree. But also, Brian, there's a wider
piece there that's interestingfor this podcast that I suspect
will go global. I've lived inThe US now for a year. I've
worked here on and off for tenyears. In The US, the tipping
culture is standard.
You just do it. It's rude not totip irrespective of the level of
(38:50):
service you get. In The UK andEurope, for example, you earn a
tip. I'm absolutely not gonnatip somebody if you just put my
food on the table and walk off.But you absolutely will hear,
minimum 15% now, even that iskind of sneered out a bit.
I went into a store the otherday and the suggested tipping,
it was only three on the till,unless you went to the bother of
(39:13):
pressing other started at 20%.And the experience in that store
was, I would say substandard. Soit's a bit wider, isn't it? It's
how we are being shaped. Andthat's what I mean when I
alluded to earlier on thisconversation, that there is a
wider cultural influence here.
(39:33):
We are being shaped. Ourbehavior is being modeled and
therefore so is our experienceand our emotion as well. It's
trying hard and just saying,okay, don't remember to smile at
people. I mean, what utternonsense? It absolutely is about
how do I make that person feel?
(39:54):
But everybody has to be a littlebit of a pocket psychologist or
a pocket behaviorist, don'tthey, to better understand how
you make people feeldifferently.
Brian Rowley (40:03):
Yeah. Agreed.
Laura Smith (40:05):
Okay. It's time to turn up the heat.
Brian Rowley (40:07):
Wow. Laura just shut you down, Jez.
Laura Smith (40:09):
Ready to move on. We're moving into the hot seat
Brian Rowley: We lost Joey. Joey's sound (40:13):
undefined
asleep. Go ahead.
Laura Smith (40:16):
We're going in the hot seat seat segment. We're
gonna ask you a quick
Jez Rose (40:19):
It's easy for you to say.
Laura Smith (40:21):
Take a quick bold stance on something. You already
have made already a few quickbold stances, so this is gonna
be easy for you. We'll put youon the spot. There's no
pressure. Here we go.
What's one thing brands shouldstop doing if they wanna build
genuine emotional connections?
Jez Rose (40:40):
Well, I've got seven.
Laura Smith (40:41):
One thing, Jez. Thing. We know you too well.
Jez Rose (40:47):
Alright. One. Stop scripting. Stop curating. Be
human.
Be real. It's okay for it to beimperfect. The greatest illusion
is that life should be perfect.We did a little bit of research
last year and tail end of lastyear into actually finished in
February, sort of this year aswell. And what we found was on
(41:07):
social media, the posts that gotthe greatest responses, greatest
number of likes, shares, orcomments, or saves combined.
So it's a tricky bit of researchto sort of quantify, were those
that were off the cuff in themoment, picked up a phone, did a
thing, this just happened. Oh,look what someone's doing in the
office right now. The scripted,curated, professional looking
(41:28):
things got by far the lowestengagement. Why? Because it's
not real.
This is what I mean. Theemotional aspect of what we're
talking about today is not aboutwhether you make someone laugh,
cry, make feel good, whatever.It's about connecting,
authentically connecting withsomebody now. Yeah. And it's why
(41:51):
after twenty two years of doingthis job, I'm walking away from
it and doing the thing thatfeels more authentic to me
because we only got one life.
Absolutely.
Brian Rowley (42:02):
Amazing. Jez, thanks so much for joining us.
Jez Rose (42:06):
Is that it?
Brian Rowley (42:06):
That's it. We're done.
Jez Rose (42:08):
I have a lot more answers here.
Laura Smith (42:09):
We'll bring you back another episode. Yes, will.
Unpaid.
Brian Rowley (42:13):
Unpaid, yes.
Jez Rose (42:14):
We're not
Brian Rowley (42:14):
paying you. I do think though that how brands
handle sort of those toughcrossroads moments are
incredibly valued to them aswell as to their audiences. So
Jez, thanks. I really, reallyappreciate your time.
Jez Rose (42:29):
It's an absolute joy. Thank you.
Laura Smith (42:31):
Absolutely, Jez. I echo what Brian said. It's been
a pleasure. We'd love to spendtime with you, but this has been
a very interesting conversationand we really appreciate you
sharing all your insights withus today.
Jez Rose (42:41):
Thank you very
Laura Smith (42:42):
much. And we do want you back someday. We
promise we'll bring you back.
Brian Rowley (42:44):
Laura, I think that's I think there's some
really interesting perspectivehere. Right? Like, I think as we
look at this, just I I think alot of brands and people that
are in roles like you and Iprobably need to spend a little
more time thinking about sort ofthat impact beyond the immediacy
of the moment and some of thelonger term pieces to it. I know
(43:06):
that if I think if there's anybrand out there that thinks
they're they've got this lockedup, we'd love to hear from you
and understand how you're doingthat. Because I can say being in
marketing for many, many years,I think there's work that's
still lots of work that stillcan be done.
Laura Smith (43:22):
Yeah, I agree. And I think how Jez wrapped it up
with the authenticity piece, Isee it every day and we try as
marketers ourselves is trying toshow the authentic content,
trying to distribute thatcontent, and we can prove that
that does better as Jez said.But sometimes internally as a
business, we need to put outother messages, and that's just,
you know and those are the veryscripted pieces, and it's it's
(43:42):
finding that balance and knowinghow to really draw people in in
the right way. So I thinkthere's a lot here today that
really resonates as a marketerand as a consumer myself, and
it's just I think we could Ithink we could even take this
conversation further, whetherwith Jez or not, because I think
there's a lot to build off ofhere.
Brian Rowley (43:59):
Yeah. And for those of you listening, thanks
for joining us. And mostimportantly, if you like today's
discussion, be sure to followus. And if you want to hear more
from Jez and some of the topicshe discussed, check him out at
thatjezrose.com.
Creating experiences that are intentional is about
(00:03):
being in the moment. And that'sthe only way that we can connect
with people.
Brian Rowley (00:21):
Welcome to Prose + Comms, Engagement Unplugged.
Today's a conversation all aboutcrossroads moments. And I'm
Brian Rowley.
Laura Smith (00:29):
And I'm Laura Smith. Today, we're going to dig
into a topic that most marketerswill face at some point in their
career. What happens when yourbrand finds itself at a
crossroads? These moments canshow up in all kinds of ways.
Maybe it's a rebrand, a shift inbusiness strategy, or responding
to a crisis.
Sometimes just keeping up withcustomer expectations. And when
you're in the middle of it, thebig question becomes, how do you
(00:50):
decide what to do next?
Brian Rowley (00:52):
And I think, Laura, that's actually a really
interesting part of it. Right?Like how much does emotion play
into those decisions? And whenis it smart to play it safe? And
when is it worth sort of takinga risk?
And today we're actually joinedby a really, a very special
guest of ours, someone who sortof helped some of the world's
biggest brands sort of rewirehow they think about
(01:15):
performance, perspective,people, and the ways in which
they connect with customers. Andwe'll explore everything from
brands taking risks toinfluences that they have, and
how they help people or ways inwhich they make people feel.
Laura Smith (01:31):
But before we get into the heart of today's
episode, we're kicking thingsoff with something we call In
the Moment. Are you ready? It'sa quick take that ties in
today's theme and gets us allthinking. Since we're talking
how emotion influencesdecisions, here's one we're
gonna start with. Brian, what'sthe best ad or commercial that's
ever gripped your emotions?
Might have made you laugh, tearup, or just take action?
Brian Rowley (01:52):
Well, I think anybody that actually knows me
knows that I'm a big, big fan ofthe Nike brand. And I think one
of the most powerful ads thatI've seen from them was one that
they did in regards to findingyour greatness. And it was all
centered around just ordinarypeople doing extraordinary
things and encountering sort ofobstacles, but not only just
(02:16):
obstacles, but actually how theyovercame them. And it was
actually kind of interestingbecause Nike did this at a point
where I believe they were notselected as one of the sponsors
or chose not to be a part of theOlympics. And the reason they
came out with this particular adwas to show that it doesn't
always require a medal in orderfor you to get your greatness,
(02:37):
that people can achieve thatevery day.
And it was just some reallypowerful things in ways in which
people sort of overcame thoseobstacles. So it was actually
one of my favorites andcontinues to be. And I think
Nike in general does a reallygood job when it comes to their
ads and making them reallypersonal and creating sort of
that emotion within its viewers.But I'm curious, how about
(02:58):
yourself?
Laura Smith (02:59):
Well, before I dive in, what was the emotion you
feel though when you when youlisten to that ad or you watch
that ad? Like, is it?
Brian Rowley (03:05):
I think it's just it's a moment of just
accomplishment, to be honestwith you. Like you felt like
things, anything was achievable.I mean, that's obviously what it
was, right? Achieving greatness.But it was actually just it was
accomplishment and seeing peoplewho had various challenges be
able to overcome that and theemotion that it incurred in them
in doing that was really, reallypowerful.
(03:28):
So let's not skip my question,which you do all the time, but
let's just get back to and howabout yourself?
Laura Smith (03:35):
Okay. So mine was our surrounding World Mental
Health day, and it's of twogentlemen watching a Norwich
City football club. They go intothe game week to week. They have
seats next to each other. Andevery week, one gentleman comes
in and and kind of, like, triesto talk to the guy next to him,
and the guy next to him isalways pretty, he's just
melancholy.
He's really chill. He's notsuper happy, whereas the
(03:56):
gentleman that we're focused onis really, like, super excited,
cheering, standing, yelling. Andevery week to week to week, they
kinda play that role. One'ssuper happy and into the game.
One's just pretty chill and justnot really super happy.
And in the end, that that reallyhappy gentleman doesn't show up
to the game. And what it seemsto be is he's no longer with us,
and it just really struck thatcord of, know, mental health is
(04:17):
around us. You know, mentaleveryone has mental not
everybody, but people havemental health issues, and we
don't always know it. So it juststruck a cord because it's a
really common theme today, andwe know this. And whether people
in your lives directly or peoplethat may be, you know, extended
family or friends may have someissues, it's just so important
to remember that you may notknow that someone has an issue.
So it just struck the cord oflike, wow. That's reality. You
(04:38):
know? And so, it wasn't like,you know, the happiest ad, but
it definitely felt like this isa real life situation, and they
brought it into a a veryrelatable environment and
something that people could takeaway and probably, like, you
know, pause and just think, wow,maybe I should pick up the phone
and call somebody to make surethey were okay.
Brian Rowley (04:54):
Yeah, it's definitely one of those topics I
don't think we talk enoughabout. And I can tell you that
experiencing it in my family andhaving gone through that and
some of what happens to thosethat are impacted by some of the
mental health issues that areout there. They do just need
people to talk about it. Like itdoesn't change everything. It
doesn't make things go away.
(05:16):
But just having a conversationand feeling like it's okay to
have that conversation doeschange that. So I applaud any
brand, any company, anyorganization that's actually
bringing awareness to thatbecause I think more needs to,
to sort of help those peoplethat really do struggle every
day with it.
Laura Smith (05:35):
Yep, agreed. Okay. That was our In the Moment
segment. I wanna say it was fun,but it was also very much the
reality. So that was a goodexchange, Brian.
So it is amazing how certain adscan still sit with us after
time, right? The ad that I'mtalking about, I think may have
been a year old and it wasn'teven really a brand or, like,
why don't watch football? Butit's something that obviously
(05:56):
stuck with me and similarly foryou, Brian. And that emotional
pull is exactly what we'rediving into today. We're talking
about what happens when brandsfind themselves at a crossroads
and how emotions shape thosepivotal decisions.
Brian Rowley (06:07):
Yeah. And I mean, we're really fortunate today to
have and to welcome Jez Roseonto our show. For those of you
that don't know Jez, he's a bestselling author. He's written
multiple books on businessleadership, customer experience,
and strategies for careersuccess. He's worked with, you
know, a ton of Fortune 100companies helping business
(06:28):
leaders sort of shift theperspective and a path for
growth, innovation andresilience.
But I will tell you personally,I had the honor of having Jez
actually keynote speak a meetingthat I held at one time. And I
will say that it was one of themost impactful keynotes that
(06:49):
I've attended. And it wasn'tjust my perspective, but it was
also those that were there hadgiven me that same feedback. So
Jez, welcome to the show, superhappy to have you.
Jez Rose (07:01):
It was a lovely introduction. Thank you very
much. I'm excited for thisreally because this will be, if
this goes well, it will be thefirst time that I will not end
up in the ER as a result ofworking with you, Brian. I was
Brian Rowley (07:15):
gonna let that go, but thanks for bringing that up.
Laura Smith (07:17):
Yes, that is the point,
Jez Rose (07:18):
isn't it? You were gonna let it go. Thank you for
having me. I'm delighted to behere.
Brian Rowley (07:24):
Yeah. So I mean, you know, Jez one of the things
and one of the things that waswhy we wanted to have you be a
part of this was obviously youtalk a lot about creating
intentional experiences. And Iwas hoping that you, for our
audience, could explain exactlywhat you mean by that. And what
role does intentionality playwhen we're sort of standing at a
(07:48):
crossroads?
Jez Rose (07:50):
That's a very good question. I am a big advocate of
conscious living, and there area number of reasons for that.
Firstly, 47% of our waking timeis spent on autopilot. We're not
consciously thinking about whatwe're doing. And that to me is
remarkable.
That means that 50% of almost50%, almost half the time that
(08:10):
we're awake, we're not evenaware of what we're doing. We're
not conscious of it, whichprobably explains some of the
people you work with, perhaps Idon't know. And so this notion
of being present and in themoment is a core part of my
life, always has been. I've beena Buddhist since I was 15. It
(08:30):
sort of dipped in and out ofthat practice.
And it's a core part ofBuddhism, this notion of being
very much in the present moment.However, park that to one side
for a second. From a sort ofbehavioral perspective, all
human behavior is explained byantecedents, behavior and
consequence. So antecedents isthe thing that causes behavior,
(08:52):
the sort of trigger. And thenevery behavior has a
consequence.
That's the ABC of humanbehavior. Well, if we're not
conscious, if we're not sort ofcreating an intentional
experience, and I'll come tothis in a second in a bit more
detail, we're not ever gonna beconscious of what the
consequences are we? So veryoften we just respond, we just
(09:12):
react. Somebody says something,a cutting remark, a very quick
email. You don't pause and thinkabout what the consequence might
be or what the best response is.
We just do it all the time. Sowhy is it important? Because
we're going to die, Brian.Everybody is going the same
direction. And we don't like totalk about it.
(09:34):
And so we just pretend that it'snot going to happen. And then we
just let life happen to us. Andwhat began to frustrate me, I
lost a lot of people in my lifevery early on. So I've always
been very hypersensitive to lifeand living it and it's
fragility. And Laura made thepoint of that advert is an
awesome advert.
(09:54):
I've seen it so many times andthe lovely twist at the end, you
should go seek it out or add itinto the show notes or
something. Doesn't go where youthink it's gonna go. But why is
it that life only changes forpeople when someone dies? Why do
we have to wait to get a cancerdiagnosis and then go, gosh,
that was a close call. I shouldchange my life now.
Why is it that we have to loseour dad and go, oh gosh, maybe
(10:17):
I've been too busy making aliving and not spending enough
time making a life. Why do wewait? So we've got to ask more
questions. Now, if we're moreintentional, the only way we're
gonna be able to do that is tobe in the moment. This moment
right now, as I am talking, asyou are listening to my voice is
the only moment that we have anyguarantee of.
(10:38):
Everything that happened before,we can't do anything about.
There's no guarantee aboutwhat's gonna happen in the
future. Literally this momenthere is it. We got to wake up
this morning. There was a ton ofpeople that didn't and a ton of
people that didn't expect not towake up this morning either.
Right? So when you're at thatcrossroads, you have to be in
(11:00):
the moment in order tounderstand and appreciate what
is the direction you can go in.Because we've all made those
long plans in business, in life,emotionally, spiritually,
financially. The road is neverstraight. You never go from A to
B.
You go A, 8.1, eight point five,seven, D tour via G, backfire H,
(11:24):
double skip over Zed, we didn'tthink we were gonna get there.
Oh, back to B again. It's neverin a straight line. So
intentionality and creatingexperiences that are intentional
is about being in the moment.And that's the only way that we
can connect with people.
We can't connect to people'sfuture or people's past because
it hasn't happened. What mattersto me now is absolutely not
(11:46):
what's gonna matter to me innine minutes time possibly,
certainly in three months time.So now is all that matters. Does
that sort of make sense?
Brian Rowley (11:54):
No, it definitely makes sense. And I think the
interesting part of it is, if wetruly live in the moment, there
are plenty of warning signs, Iwould say before those traumatic
moments happen. But I thinkwe're so distracted that we
don't always pay attention tothose. And as a result of that,
it takes that very traumaticmoment. And the example that you
(12:17):
gave, the loss of life, right?
Before someone actually makes achange. But I guarantee you that
there were plenty of otherthings that happened prior to
that. That could have beenmoments for someone to pivot
where they may not have.
Jez Rose (12:32):
Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, in commercially, we talk a
lot about, I encourage people tohave a plan B to come up with
what's your plan B. In fact, itwas a time when I was going call
my business plan B. Then when Imoved to The States, I realized
it probably wasn't the bestbusiness name. And I asked a ton
of people in cafes and stuff,I'd lean over and say, Hey, I'm
(12:54):
sorry to interrupt you.
But if I say plan B, what doesthat like, what's the first
thing that comes sort of comesup? And I realised that probably
asking young couples thatquestion seemed a bit pointed
from a stranger. They was it wasas if I was judging their, you
know, life dream or During
Brian Rowley (13:10):
the cafe too.
Jez Rose (13:11):
And I realized that plan B probably was the best.
Laura Smith (13:13):
Top winning focus groups at better cafes. Yes,
Jez Rose (13:16):
with random people. So the thing about this idea of
plan B, what happens if it's notgonna work out? Then I tell them
to scrap plan A. Because ifyou've got plan B, why would you
go with plan A? Because plan Bis look to all the ways that
plan A won't work to create aplan that's more solid.
(13:38):
And if we were more conscious,if we were more intentional, if
we were more aware and alert ofwhat was going on moment by
moment, I mean, when that studycame out to show that 47% of our
waking time were on autopilot, Ijust thought that explains
everything. All the road rageexplains all of that. The idiots
that just do random stuff andyou think, what on earth did you
do that for? The emails that youthink, that wasn't very well
(14:01):
worded, or I don't understandwhat they mean, or things that
people say and do, but also ouremotional regulation as well,
right? So I think whether it'swork or home or deeply internal
for you, deeply personal, beingmore intentional just means
(14:22):
being more in the presentmoment, and we get so much more
control.
Laura Smith (14:27):
Jez, let's bring it back to, like, brands. Right? So
do you think they most brandsare intentional? Do you think
that they plan for that plan b,or do you think they spend more
time reacting to what'shappening around us to then try
to get ahead of it? Like, thatmental health ad, for example.
Right? So that was somethingthat we know is happening. So
but that could have beenreactive because mental health
has always been something that'sbeen around us for quite some
(14:49):
time, just wasn't discussed asoften. So do you think brands
that react are the ones thatare, like, losing out, or do you
think those brands should begetting ahead of it? And if so,
do we think that happens moreoften than not?
Jez Rose (15:03):
That's a really interesting point. You ever been
in a conversation and you go tosay something and then you don't
say it, but then other peoplesay, no. No. No. Go on.
Go on. What what are you gonnasay? And you say, no. So the
moment's passed now. Doesn'tmatter.
We overthink being human. Andlook, risk involves
consequences, right? But rarelyare they permanent. So do brands
lose more if they wait? Yeah, Ithink they lose more edge, more
(15:26):
long term connection withcustomers or users because we
aren't necessarily consciouslyaware that we are living in the
moment, but we are.
And so if you can directlyconnect with people in their
moment, in the moment, in thismoment, I mean, it's how all of
really mainstream media works.Right? If you've ever had a
(15:48):
press release set up and you'vebeen very excited about your big
launch that's happening onMonday, all the press releases
have gone out, you've your radiointerview set up. And then on
Sunday, something catastrophichappens. Well, suddenly your
press release is gonna getpushed to right at the bottom
and you're done and dusted.
No one's interested anymore. Sowe can live like that because
brands can think a little moreabout taking an educated risk. I
(16:12):
think we've just got to I havereal concerns and issues and
quite outspoken about and quiteopinionated probably as well,
although it comes from the sortof educated background of
experience that we aredehumanizing the way that we
connect with consumers andcustomers. We're far too focused
(16:35):
on logistics and processes andall that kinds of, making it
easy for the brand under theguise of making it easy for
customers. But I think, yeah,you lose, I think long term you
lose customers.
There I've said it, Laura. You
Brian Rowley (16:53):
got your answer. Script it. But just in that
sense, right? You know, doesemotion actually influence those
decisions sort of at thosecritical times? And I mean, from
a business perspective, if youlook at that, right?
How does a business factor insome of these emotional elements
sort of when they're shapingthose customer interactions?
Jez Rose (17:14):
I wrote about this in one of the books, I think it was
Fit the Switch. I can't rememberwhich one, but back in The US
when television was firstreleased mainstream and invented
and offered as this thing, thisnew thing you can have in your
home, it's called a television,you'll love it. The pushback was
(17:36):
we don't have time to watchtelevision. Like why would
anybody We're not gonna have thetime for that. We listened to
the radio in the evening andthis sound clip is
contextualized within the timefor what I'm about to say.
All the men were away being verybusy at work, earning the income
for the household. The womenwere at home, keeping the house,
raising the children. Nobody hadany time to watch television.
(17:58):
What a stupid invention. Fastforward to 2015 is the last stat
I have, which admittedly is tenyears old.
But when you listen to the stat,you'll know that it's worse now.
The average American watchedfive hours of television a day.
So, or we in America, I shouldsay, because that makes it sound
(18:18):
like it's bit us and them. Lookwhat happened last time we got
into that. You ended up takingthe country from us.
The point is that all the time,emotions are influencing our
decision making. Whether we'retired or not tired, or whether
(18:39):
we're hungry, or whether we havecore unmet needs. Businesses
particularly need to think aboutat what point are they
interacting with a customer andhow are they likely to be
feeling? Because we're driven byemotion, but we're not great at
being in touch with ourselves,let alone regulating our own
emotion. When we're tired, welikely reach for easy solutions,
(19:03):
instant help.
And that becomes habitualbecause as a species, we
naturally don't want to preserveenergy. So then we get led to be
lazy by brands. So it's all verywell saying, okay, this is my
target market, for example, orthis is where we're gonna
capture our customers. But atwhat point, like what time in
the morning, what are theylikely to be wrapped up in at
(19:24):
that time that you're connectingwith them? What are the stress
levels likely to be?
What time differently perhapscould you, a different time
could you connect with thosepeople or a different place? Is
it on the move? In which caseyou've gotta think about traffic
and busyness and stimulation,and perhaps it's better that we
capture these people whenthey're at home and relaxed. And
those emotional elements arewhere if you find you were
(19:46):
talking earlier about supersuccessful brand campaigns that
make an emotional impact. Well,there are sort of classically
babies and children, Sorry.
Babies and animals are alwaysgonna trigger emotions. Cute and
fluffy and cute and vulnerable.Right? So those are given. And
(20:07):
then you can add into that sickchildren.
And then you've got the sort ofholy grail of the emotional
triggers, right? Those threeelements are always gonna
trigger customers' needs. Thoseare the three areas that people
give most to charitably. So ifyou can do it that simply, it
just takes a tiny bit morethought, doesn't it? To work out
(20:28):
what are these people feelingwhen they're doing the thing
that we want them to be doing.
And all of the successful brandcampaigns do that. If you look
at them from a behavioralperspective, they've got that
extra edge to them. They've gotthat extra element that they've
thought about.
Laura Smith (20:42):
Well, that's what was gonna say is, you know, do
you think brands know thatthey're doing that? Do they
think that you think that theyknow that they're they have the
ability to escalate emotions orchange someone's emotions? Like,
yes, they take intoconsideration potentially the
emotions, but do you think theyget it? You know, do you think
that they really do it for theright reasons, to help play into
(21:04):
trying to get a response out ofout of consumers or whoever
they're trying to attract?Because I think I I get what
you're saying.
They know it's dogs or pets andkids, but do they really
understand sometimes whenthey're putting on a brand
campaign for their own benefit,right, trying to drive business?
Do they understand what they canactually do and how they can
(21:25):
affect consumer behavior?
Jez Rose (21:27):
They'll say they're aware of it, but they're not.
Here's an example. You needcustomer support for something.
You won't find a telephonenumber because you're pushed to
an online chat. If you're lucky,you get to a human.
If you're really lucky, you geta phone number. What's the first
message you hear when you ringcustomer support? We're
experiencing an overwhelmingnumber of calls. No, you're not.
(21:49):
You're experiencing the samenumber of calls you'd always
had.
You're just not employing enoughstaff. It's as simple as that.
So most companies stopped trulycaring about customer service a
long time ago. There was amassive shift at COVID. And
since COVID, it's never changed.
No one making these decisionshas been through the customer
journey. That's evident. Howdoes the customer feel is not a
(22:09):
question enough organisationsask. I've worked and consulted
with 93 of the Fortune 100businesses. I've spent twenty
two years as a behavior advisorfor the corporate industry.
We are sentient beings. There'sfar too much weight and thinking
on customer flow and efficiency,which actually is about taking,
(22:31):
sorry, about managing customerseasier for the company. It's
nothing to do with the customerthemselves and not nearly enough
consideration on how we'remaking people feel. So, yeah, I
think brands unintentionallyescalate emotion, but they don't
understand why they're doing itor how they're doing it. But
(22:55):
they also have the role to easethat as well.
It's just that the problem withall of this area, Laura, is that
I don't know where Brian's gone.Problem with all of this, Laura,
well, It's
Laura Smith (23:06):
his nap time. This is what I Thanks
Brian Rowley (23:08):
for waking me up. Sorry. I just got a little a
little jazz. Go ahead. Keepgoing.
This is riveting. When I say
Jez Rose (23:17):
when I say I'd love to say I've missed you. When I say
this, I mean psychology,behaviour, all of these slightly
more cerebral elements ofcustomer. The problem is, Laura,
it's really different. There'snothing tangible. If I say make
that orange, that widget, thatcolor, that brand, that
whatever, and 9% more people aregonna click on it, right?
(23:40):
Then you can visually see that,you can see the difference and
then you can metrically supportit as well. We're talking about
feelings and thoughts, they'revisceral, right? There's nothing
tangible. They're just, you'rerelying on the hope that you
know about that emotion. And soit's difficult.
You have to wait and businessesaren't very good at waiting
(24:02):
anymore. We kind of
Brian Rowley (24:03):
want
Jez Rose (24:03):
instantaneous ROI or at least some confirmation about
that. So I think that's why wedon't see it as much, but my
concern is, look what happenedto the re offending rate, both
in The US and The UK, I havefigures for. And the re
offending rate is insane, whichtells you that when people go to
(24:26):
prison, it's not an effectivepunishment because they carry on
re offending. So the system isbroken. And why?
Well, I can tell you that, andany psychologist and
behaviourist will tell you why,because the punishment comes way
too late after the behaviour.And that big gap there doesn't
link the punishment directlywith the behaviour. So, you
know, if I tripped up an oldlady and ran off with her
(24:48):
handbag and got punched in theface, it's unlikely I would do
that again anytime soon. If Itrip up an old lady, run off of
her handbag and nine monthslater, have to spend some time
in jail, there's a whole ninemonths where I've enjoyed my
life. Right?
And the cash and the boiledsweets. So there are issues, I
think, linking that the brandshave, with linking what's
(25:08):
happening in this moment, inthis time, and what's the result
of it. And that gap there is Ithink difficult for them to see
the point in engaging withanything like emotion or asking
about how customers feel. So Ithink they will blame customer
complaints on, I don't know, theprocess isn't smooth enough or
(25:30):
something, but it's not. It'sjust because you really rile me
up when I've got a problem andyou're not gonna help me, but
you actually make it moredifficult for me to find
somebody to help me.
I've gotta go to a bot and thenI've gotta ask the bot speak to
a human. And then I've got tospeak to a human who goes nine
minutes of questions. So I needto go, oh, you want a paper
month plan? Oh, sorry. We onlydo the pay as you go.
(25:51):
You need to call this numberinstead.
Brian Rowley (25:53):
But Jez, where do you think the line is between
customer experience andemotional well-being, right?
Like because there's definitelya line I think that brands sort
of hover over, right? Where,okay, we have we're worrying
about frustrating aggravation,all of those types of things.
(26:13):
But where is that line or isthere not a line? We're on a
podcast.
We've
Laura Smith (26:26):
got little bit of a I
Jez Rose (26:30):
don't know how, well, no, I'm gonna be honest. I've
decided this year is my year ofauthenticity.
Brian Rowley (26:37):
Strap Yeah.
Laura Smith (26:39):
Shall we get ready to mute?
Brian Rowley (26:41):
Yeah. Yes. I'm ready. I'm ready.
Jez Rose (26:44):
So the social media industry had a big wake up call
to this, right? Social media isever evolving. It's new to all
of us. It's changing how wethink and feel and behave,
interact, socialise. And it's anew cause of fear of missing
out, FOMO, depression andsuicide, right?
So those are majorresponsibilities and issues. And
(27:05):
therefore the social mediaindustry had to, they were
forced to think about emotionalwell-being. They didn't get a
choice of that. Right? Now theydidn't intend to create
something that would make usfeel more depressed and horrible
and make our lives for somepeople difficult, but at the
same time, for some peoplebrilliant.
Now you've got this weirdincongruence, right? There's
this thing that is as brilliantas it is tragic. But behind
(27:30):
anger, if I feel angry or youfeel stressed, for example,
there are a ton of otheremotions like jealousy and
sadness and frustration,helplessness, shame, feeling
overwhelmed. These are allcauses of that anger or stress.
We respond to the anger or thestress that the initial thing
(27:52):
that we present, but the causeof it is what we need to be
addressing.
So what do we do with thosefeelings? Well, most people
reach outward to resolve orcomfort them. We buy things for
the alpha brainwave and dopaminehere, even though it's short
lived, We'll eat comfort foods,we reach outwards, right? We see
a whole wealth of marketingthat's preying on our emotional
(28:13):
needs, making it easier to buy,easier to consume, and therefore
easier to cover everything upinstead of dealing with our need
to rediscover our core unmetneeds. So yeah, brands need to
take much more ownership of theemotional well-being of their
customers if they want to bebetter people and live more
(28:35):
ethically.
But try telling that to a boardof investors who only care about
money because they don'tunderstand what truly matters in
life and that some of thehappiest people alive have
nothing. So I know that's quitea sort of a pointed answer, and
it's not opinionated, you know,that's sort of fact. It's a
(28:57):
little broad, but it is fact. Sowill they is an interesting
question. I suspect not.
I think we've still got a bitlonger for this. We need the
equivalent of the social mediaissue. I just hope it doesn't
get to the point that there'sthis tonne of evidence that
suggests that brands or viacertain marketing makes people
desperately unhappy. And thenwe've had to cause a lot of pain
(29:19):
in order to say, oh, actually,maybe we should do a bit
different. But the only thing Idon't know about The US, the
only thing we have in The UK isthe advertising standards
agency, agency, but really theyregulate sort of over promising
or sort of false messaging orsomething.
Not necessarily the ethics of,is this the right thing we
should be doing? I mean, if youthink about it also, look at the
(29:42):
sort of trend that we had foryears, the misogynistic trend of
scantily clad women draped overcars or something to sell the
cars to men. Well, it wasn't thesort of emotional well-being
that we thought about. It wasequality actually, wasn't it? It
was, well, isn't that a bitderogatory towards women and
derisory?
(30:02):
And so again, that came from adifferent perspective to
challenge that. So I think it'sa really interesting question.
Where is the line betweencustomer experience and
emotional well-being? And Iwould argue there isn't one,
because if we start separatingthings as important as emotional
well-being, well, then itbecomes an other, doesn't it?
(30:25):
And it isn't other.
It's one. The customer'sexperience is their emotional
well-being. Right. Whether it'sthere or whether or not.
Laura Smith (30:34):
Sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to. But I know as,
like, for my own customerexperience perspective, right,
if I have a great experience,you know, someone I send an
email. I do something. Iinteract. I want, like, some
refund.
I want something a problem to besolved, and that is solved very
seamlessly. I am an happyperson, and I'm on my way to do
(30:56):
other things in life. Sure.Opposite of that, if it's a
really frustrating experience,that could affect my whole day.
Brian Rowley (31:02):
You know?
Laura Smith (31:02):
I'm set off in a way. So it's it's what you're
saying is a %, I can I canrelate as a consumer myself that
it doesn't it can really it canreally shift my mindset? And
being in marketing, of course,you even get more frustrated
because you understand howimportant customer experience
is. But as a consumer, I'd agreethat it could make me a happier
person because I just had awonderful experience, or it
(31:24):
could turn my day around becauseI just dealt with so much
frustration. Mhmm.
Even though that's in mypersonal life, but then it
brings back in even into myprofessional life where I've
gotta now, you know, be happywith the people I work with and
just pretend like that doesn'thappen. But it's hard to
control, I would say.
Brian Rowley (31:39):
But I also think the other side to it too is we
spend a lot of time focused onexperience. But I think when you
boil that back to truly get tothe root of emotional
well-being, I'm not sure thatthere's a lot of brands that are
out there to be honest, that sitthere and say, I wonder what the
longer term impact of thiscontact with this customer would
(32:01):
actually be. They think about itfrom the immediacy of will it
trigger a buying behavior andnot think about the longer term
side to things. So I think it'sa very different perspective in
regards to marketing as a wholethat I'm not sure a lot of
brands and at every moment thinkabout, or even think about it
(32:22):
all, to be honest.
Jez Rose (32:24):
Yeah, I would agree. And that sort of feeds into a
bigger, wider social issue,doesn't it? You know, we're
being driven to become actuallymore selfish. We don't think
about us broadly anymore. Wethink about me.
What's in it for me? What's the,and that has much wider social
and political issues as well. Soshould they? Yeah, I think they
(32:46):
should. Why?
Because you, I mean, there's anethical thing. There's all of
the good stuff, right? Butsomeone's gonna say, well,
that's optional. But thencustomer service used to be
optional for a long time. It wasif you've got time, don't forget
to smile or say, have a good dayor whatever.
Then of course the rise of powerof customers came. We went
through that transition ofpeople moving with their feet.
(33:06):
All industries became much morecompetitive due to social media
landscapes and the change incommerce. And so now we had
greater competition. So peoplelike to work harder for customer
attention, let alone customerbuying power.
And so customer service is theobvious thing, as Laura said,
let's make people feel greatabout our brand and also make
(33:28):
them feel even better aboutdealing with us. I think we're
in what I would call the usedcar sales period of consumerism
right now. So the thing is whenyou buy a car, I mean, you're
the you're like the Messiah whenyou walk into a car showroom,
aren't you? I mean, they couldnot be happier to see you. They
are like, absolutely.
(33:49):
Would you like coffee, flowers?Let me be all over you. Lick
your ears. I see you've got abit of wax in there. Let me get
in there with the tip of mytongue.
They're all over. Take yourpants off, sir. I'll I'll I'll
eye in those. You know, theythey could not be, oh, your
hands look a little chafed. I'vegot some moisturizer.
Come here. Let me give you alittle manny. They're all over
you. They would do anything toget that car. You drive out of
the showroom and something goeswrong with that car, you are the
(34:12):
scum on their shoe.
Like, who the hell when you goin and you will get spat at for
coming back. Who do you thinkyou are coming back here? You've
got the car, you little Cretan.And that I think is possibly
come over a little opinionatedthere.
Brian Rowley (34:29):
Just a skosh.
Laura Smith (34:29):
A little bit? A little bit over the line.
Stepped up for the line a
Brian Rowley (34:33):
few times there.
Jez Rose (34:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Laura talking about lines.
Yeah. Yeah. What a deep seatedirony. So, but the point is that
sort of for me feels like thegeneral temperature check of all
experience at the minute. We'redesperate to get the customer in
at the top end.
We'll do anything. That lovelybrand experience, the marketing,
(34:54):
the soft landing, the sale, thediscount, the sexy packaging,
and then the lights go off. Soonas something happens or you need
to speak to, you need tointeract with that organization,
it is not easy. And you'reright, Laura, the ones that
stand out, bizarrely, one ofthem for me is a bank, is an
online bank. Phenomenal.
The last place you would thinkanybody would be useful. And I
(35:17):
think we're in that period for abit longer until people start
again, consumers move for theirfeet or talk. And so sort of to
your point about this notion of,what was your point you were
making, Brian? No, aboutexperiences. I think it's
important because it directlyfeeds into customer service and
(35:40):
customer experience.
I mean, they don't know, this isthe thing, it's deeply clever
psychology this. I'm just tryingto think in my head, how
comfortable I feel about sharingthis because it sort of feels a
little, I could understandsomebody pushing back and
saying, is this sort ofdeceptive or brainwashing or
whatever? But as I'm not beingpaid for this podcast, which I
(36:03):
think I have raised once ortwice before, I'll say it
anyway. Think, if you know howsomeone feels at any given time
or the risk of how they couldfeel or how you need them to
feel, you can do lots ofdifferent things to be able to
(36:25):
mould and manage and shape thatexperience for the better in
order to enhance the overallexperience they have with you
now, but long term, because youever see like those movies, I'll
stop talking in second. Iappreciate this is a long
answer, but you ever see thosemovies where they drop something
into the water and suddenlyeverybody loves a brand or it's
(36:49):
like sort of those disaster, notdisaster movies.
It's like a, there is a movie Iwatched, can't think of what it
is, but they gave everyone apill or added something to the
water or food or something. Andit secretly changed people's
brain and made them all lovethis particular product or
something and sort of, you know,brainwash them all to buy it. It
is sort of the equivalent ofthat in so much that we can
(37:12):
encourage people to feeldifferently about something. And
they won't know why, but they'llfeel much more aligned and safe
with that brand. And I think allof everything we've spoken about
today comes really back to thatword.
It's about making consumers feelsafe.
Brian Rowley (37:29):
But I think, Jez, and this is a whole other
conversation, but I think itdoes also go back to
authenticity. Because I can giveyou an example. Starbucks just
recently went into a mode wherethey write nice messages on the
cups as people are handing themout and there's hearts on them
and there's have a great day andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that works really, reallywell when the person who's doing
(37:52):
it is smiling when they're doingit. Right.
But when that same person handsyou the cup with the little
heart that says have a great dayand they grunt at you. Right. It
doesn't work. I think you alsohave to instill this
understanding throughout theculture of the organization, not
just in the way that youapproach it from a marketing
(38:15):
perspective, because again, itgoes back to, and I know you've
talked about this for a longtime, but the authentic side to
it is also needs to be apparentand needs to come through.
Otherwise it just doesn't work.
Jez Rose (38:27):
Yeah, I would agree. But also, Brian, there's a wider
piece there that's interestingfor this podcast that I suspect
will go global. I've lived inThe US now for a year. I've
worked here on and off for tenyears. In The US, the tipping
culture is standard.
You just do it. It's rude not totip irrespective of the level of
(38:50):
service you get. In The UK andEurope, for example, you earn a
tip. I'm absolutely not gonnatip somebody if you just put my
food on the table and walk off.But you absolutely will hear,
minimum 15% now, even that iskind of sneered out a bit.
I went into a store the otherday and the suggested tipping,
it was only three on the till,unless you went to the bother of
(39:13):
pressing other started at 20%.And the experience in that store
was, I would say substandard. Soit's a bit wider, isn't it? It's
how we are being shaped. Andthat's what I mean when I
alluded to earlier on thisconversation, that there is a
wider cultural influence here.
(39:33):
We are being shaped. Ourbehavior is being modeled and
therefore so is our experienceand our emotion as well. It's
trying hard and just saying,okay, don't remember to smile at
people. I mean, what utternonsense? It absolutely is about
how do I make that person feel?
(39:54):
But everybody has to be a littlebit of a pocket psychologist or
a pocket behaviorist, don'tthey, to better understand how
you make people feeldifferently.
Brian Rowley (40:03):
Yeah. Agreed.
Laura Smith (40:05):
Okay. It's time to turn up the heat.
Brian Rowley (40:07):
Wow. Laura just shut you down, Jez.
Laura Smith (40:09):
Ready to move on. We're moving into the hot seat
Brian Rowley: We lost Joey. Joey's sound (40:13):
undefined
asleep. Go ahead.
Laura Smith (40:16):
We're going in the hot seat seat segment. We're
gonna ask you a quick
Jez Rose (40:19):
It's easy for you to say.
Laura Smith (40:21):
Take a quick bold stance on something. You already
have made already a few quickbold stances, so this is gonna
be easy for you. We'll put youon the spot. There's no
pressure. Here we go.
What's one thing brands shouldstop doing if they wanna build
genuine emotional connections?
Jez Rose (40:40):
Well, I've got seven.
Laura Smith (40:41):
One thing, Jez. Thing. We know you too well.
Jez Rose (40:47):
Alright. One. Stop scripting. Stop curating. Be
human.
Be real. It's okay for it to beimperfect. The greatest illusion
is that life should be perfect.We did a little bit of research
last year and tail end of lastyear into actually finished in
February, sort of this year aswell. And what we found was on
(41:07):
social media, the posts that gotthe greatest responses, greatest
number of likes, shares, orcomments, or saves combined.
So it's a tricky bit of researchto sort of quantify, were those
that were off the cuff in themoment, picked up a phone, did a
thing, this just happened. Oh,look what someone's doing in the
office right now. The scripted,curated, professional looking
(41:28):
things got by far the lowestengagement. Why? Because it's
not real.
This is what I mean. Theemotional aspect of what we're
talking about today is not aboutwhether you make someone laugh,
cry, make feel good, whatever.It's about connecting,
authentically connecting withsomebody now. Yeah. And it's why
(41:51):
after twenty two years of doingthis job, I'm walking away from
it and doing the thing thatfeels more authentic to me
because we only got one life.
Absolutely.
Brian Rowley (42:02):
Amazing. Jez, thanks so much for joining us.
Jez Rose (42:06):
Is that it?
Brian Rowley (42:06):
That's it. We're done.
Jez Rose (42:08):
I have a lot more answers here.
Laura Smith (42:09):
We'll bring you back another episode. Yes, will.
Unpaid.
Brian Rowley (42:13):
Unpaid, yes.
Jez Rose (42:14):
We're not
Brian Rowley (42:14):
paying you. I do think though that how brands
handle sort of those toughcrossroads moments are
incredibly valued to them aswell as to their audiences. So
Jez, thanks. I really, reallyappreciate your time.
Jez Rose (42:29):
It's an absolute joy. Thank you.
Laura Smith (42:31):
Absolutely, Jez. I echo what Brian said. It's been
a pleasure. We'd love to spendtime with you, but this has been
a very interesting conversationand we really appreciate you
sharing all your insights withus today.
Jez Rose (42:41):
Thank you very
Laura Smith (42:42):
much. And we do want you back someday. We
promise we'll bring you back.
Brian Rowley (42:44):
Laura, I think that's I think there's some
really interesting perspectivehere. Right? Like, I think as we
look at this, just I I think alot of brands and people that
are in roles like you and Iprobably need to spend a little
more time thinking about sort ofthat impact beyond the immediacy
of the moment and some of thelonger term pieces to it. I know
(43:06):
that if I think if there's anybrand out there that thinks
they're they've got this lockedup, we'd love to hear from you
and understand how you're doingthat. Because I can say being in
marketing for many, many years,I think there's work that's
still lots of work that stillcan be done.
Laura Smith (43:22):
Yeah, I agree. And I think how Jez wrapped it up
with the authenticity piece, Isee it every day and we try as
marketers ourselves is trying toshow the authentic content,
trying to distribute thatcontent, and we can prove that
that does better as Jez said.But sometimes internally as a
business, we need to put outother messages, and that's just,
you know and those are the veryscripted pieces, and it's it's
(43:42):
finding that balance and knowinghow to really draw people in in
the right way. So I thinkthere's a lot here today that
really resonates as a marketerand as a consumer myself, and
it's just I think we could Ithink we could even take this
conversation further, whetherwith Jez or not, because I think
there's a lot to build off ofhere.
Brian Rowley (43:59):
Yeah. And for those of you listening, thanks
for joining us. And mostimportantly, if you like today's
discussion, be sure to followus. And if you want to hear more
from Jez and some of the topicshe discussed, check him out at
thatjezrose.com.
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