October 9, 2024 • 59 mins
Meet Bryan!
Bryan Coryell, an accomplished attorney and pianist, shares his journey through law and music, insights into legal compliance, and the evolving landscape of trust and estate law. He discusses the balance between his legal career and artistic pursuits, highlighting the parallels between studying music and practicing law.
His focus on trust and estate law involves a personal and practical approach to resolving disputes and providing legal advice to clients. The conversation delves into the complexities of legal disputes, decision-making, and conflict resolution, emphasizing the importance of understanding the gray areas and the human element in law.
Bryan Coryell shares insights on managing people, navigating the legal system, and developing people skills in the legal profession. He also discusses personal interests in cooking, the outdoors, and music.
Takeaways
- His journey from music to law reflects the intersection of creativity and analytical thinking in both fields.
- The personal and practical approach to trust and estate law involves resolving disputes and providing legal advice to clients in a family context.
- The parallels between studying music and practicing law highlight the blend of creativity and logical analysis in both disciplines. Understanding the gray areas and human element is crucial in legal disputes.
- Developing people skills is essential for success in the legal profession.
- Personal interests and hobbies are significant in maintaining work-life balance and personal growth.
Sound Bites
"Bryan's journey from music to law reflects the intersection of creativity and analytical thinking in both fields."
"The personal and practical approach to trust and estate law involves resolving disputes and providing legal advice to clients in a family context."
"The parallels between studying music and practicing law highlight the blend of creativity and logical analysis in both disciplines."
"Finding common ground is fundamental in conflict resolution."
Chapters
00:00 Exploring Bryan's Journey Through Law and Music
07:57 Transition to the World of Law and Legal Career Path
33:20 Navigating the Gray Areas of Legal Disputes
40:29 Developing People Skills in the Legal Profession
57:22 Balancing Work and Personal Interests
LinkedIn personal - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-coryell-369203a/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Pretty Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting
(00:10):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, St. Stephens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery from unraveling the unique stories that shared our guest careers
to the invaluable advice that filled their success.
We're here to provide you with simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career in
personal growth.
(00:31):
Whether you're a budding professional or a seasoned executive, these conversations are
designed to offer insight and perspective that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Pretty Conversations.
Today, I am fortunate enough to have Brian Correale, an accomplished attorney and associate
with Friedman Goldberg, Wargo, and Hess.
(00:52):
Brian specializes in civil litigation and corporate legal compliance with practicing
and encompassing business law, trust in the state, and litigation.
Since joining the firm in 2019, he has demonstrated a profound commitment to excellence, integrity,
and legal field.
A graduate of the University of San Francisco School of Law, Brian's academic career has
marked numerous awards for his writing and advocacy skills, highlighting his pro-est in
(01:16):
legal argumentation and brief composition.
Beyond his legal accolades, Brian brings up a unique perspective in his practice of
being majored in music with emphasis in piano performance at early-name universities.
An active member of the Sonoma County Bar Association and a certified member of the
Ethical Alliance, Brian is deeply committed to anti-corruption compliance, corporate
transparency, and ethical business dealing.
(01:38):
We're not navigating the complexity of the law.
He indulges in his passion of music, both as a pianist and as an advocate, and a concert
attendee fostering the arts in his community.
Today we explore Brian's journey through law and music, his insights into the evolving
landscape of legal compliance, and how he debalances the manning career of his artistic
overseas.
Brian, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
(01:59):
Thank you, Zane.
It's a pleasure to be here with you today.
So I always find the most fascinating part about you is that you're just this ridiculously
talented young man.
And that's not even to take into account the legal side of it, but it always blows my
mind that this is just a big part of you.
And when it came up in conversation for the first time, I was like, what?
(02:21):
What is how?
And it clearly is something that defines people and people that defines you in people's minds
and makes you memorable.
And it's sort of a little bit of a cheat code in the world of networking and making sure
people think of you when it comes to referrals as well.
Yeah, definitely.
(02:43):
It's certainly a memorable thing.
It's not something that very many people have in their background.
I don't know any other attorneys really.
Yeah, it's definitely a good conversation piece and certainly one that sticks in people's
minds.
Yeah, and it's not that you're just a pianist.
You're like very, very good from all of the people I've received.
(03:03):
So that helps as well.
Because I think a lot of people first have seen you perform before they heard you're
an attorney rather than this is an attorney that plays the piano.
Yeah, it's one of those things where I've kept up with it over the years.
So it's more than just a hobby, but something that I, like you said, is a passion and something
that I, even though I don't do it for my career anymore, maybe as I intended way back in the
(03:28):
day, it's something that I still do.
I still play at least a little bit every day if I can.
And I'm heavily involved in the arts community and have gotten involved in the local community
here with that.
So it's just something that I have kept up with over the years.
I meet a lot of people who say, yeah, you know, I used to play piano or I used to play
(03:51):
the violin and as their professional careers have gone on, they haven't kept up with it.
But it's something that was always very important to me.
And so even when I sort of switch lanes, so to speak, career and professional wise, I've
kept up with it.
And so it's always going to be an important part of my life for sure.
(04:11):
And how did you get started playing piano?
Is it just something that you got trapped into as a kid or what is the story?
Now, interestingly, that's kind of how it started in the beginning.
My aunt got my cousin and I each a keyboard when we were five.
And I actually started piano lessons and quit pretty quickly.
And then when I was in elementary school, we had a school music program and you could
(04:34):
learn an instrument.
So they came around to the school and did a presentation and asked the kids what we'd
like to learn.
And I chose the clarinet of all things.
And so I actually started really learning music with the clarinet and really liked that.
I played in the school band and took some private lessons with that and actually played
(04:55):
clarinet all the way through high school in our school band programs growing up.
Somewhere along the way with that, I said to my parents, you know, this is great.
I love the clarinet, but I'd also like to play something that I can play by myself where
I don't need a whole group or a band to make music.
And so I think I was about 13 or 14 when I took up the piano again, sort of for the
(05:21):
second time.
So this is big, but really, it just came out of I have always loved music.
I like really almost all genres of music.
I like to go to lots of different kinds of concerts and things of that nature.
And so even as a kid growing up, I just listened to a lot of music and it's always just been
something that I really enjoyed.
And so the thing just drove me to the idea of wanting to play an instrument where I could
(05:44):
make music on my own for myself.
And that's really where it started.
That was incredible.
So when everybody else was wanting to play the, you know, the drums and the guitar, you
decided clarinet was the one for you?
Yeah, I guess so.
Whether I think in hindsight, I probably would have taken up a brass instrument instead, the
trumpet or the horn or something, because those are my favorite these days when I go
(06:05):
to the go to an orchestra concert or something.
Yeah, but that's, you know, is just wanted to do something with music.
And when the opportunity came up, I jumped at it and it's always just been part of my
life and something that I do.
And outside of piano and clarinet, do you play any other instruments?
No, I don't.
I fiddled with the guitar a little bit.
(06:27):
My brother has one that has now sort of become mine because he never learned to play.
And so when I said I wanted to learn, he gave it to me.
But I haven't really made a ton of progress on it.
I don't have, I don't have a lot of time to practice a new instrument at this point.
Fair enough.
Do you have the singing voice to go with the ability to play?
(06:48):
I don't have a great singing voice, although I will admit I do enjoy karaoke.
You don't have to be any good to enjoy it.
So that's good.
I mean, I'm really horrible.
So it's much better for people if I stay away from this.
Yeah, I, you know, I had to sing in choirs and things obviously in school when I was
majoring in music.
I think one of the best compliments I got about that was that I have a voice that blends
(07:09):
well with others.
So it doesn't stand out well.
It doesn't stand out too much.
So that the choir teacher thought that was a good thing.
It's better than the alternative, right?
When you have that kind of on-ready thing, but they have to be there.
Yeah.
So at some point you decided, okay, music is great, but I got to do something else.
(07:30):
So tell us about the decision to get into the world of law and become an attorney.
Yeah.
So let's see.
After I graduated with my music degree, I was in a couple of international competitions.
I taught for a while.
I taught at Napa Valley Community College.
I was teaching a couple of piano classes over there.
(07:51):
And just at a certain point it became kind of clear to me that if I was going to do music
professionally, it was going to be primarily teaching.
And so the question was, is that really what I want to do?
Do I enjoy teaching piano so much that that's what I want to do for the rest of my career?
(08:12):
And I love playing and I don't dislike teaching.
I actually like mentoring people.
But I think the idea of teaching a lot of beginning students, young kids piano for years
over and over was just not what I really wanted to do with my career.
I had done that a lot in school, teaching in after school programs and things of that
(08:33):
nature.
And that just wasn't what I wanted to spend the rest of my career doing.
I thought, okay, I'd like to do something that is a different kind of intellectual challenge.
At that point, music really felt like something that I can do this for me and I'm glad I've
studied it and I've gone down this route just thinking about professionally.
(08:56):
And for me, I always wanted to do something that was intellectually challenging because
that's having something to kind of keep my mind occupied and challenge me in that way
has always been important.
And I've always loved that aspect of music because delving into the details of it and
kind of trying to understand it for myself is that kind of challenge.
(09:19):
Kind of teaching didn't really present that for me from a long term perspective.
And so I really started to think about what could I do professionally that's really going
to engage me in that way and kind of make me feel like I'm doing something productive
and really beneficial.
And law was really, I would say it was a combination decision of sort of the crossroads of my interests
(09:45):
and just practicality on the practical side.
It was one of the things that already having a master's degree I could go back to school
for and not have to start all over.
Many of the other things I was considering would have required a whole new bachelor's
degree and in most cases even another master's degree.
And so I thought, well, that's six years of time and more investment as opposed to three
(10:09):
years of law school.
So there was that piece of it, but also just thinking about other things that I had always
been interested in growing up, the law had always kind of fascinated me.
A lot of my favorite TV shows as I had grown up had been law related in some way or another.
And in particular, I always tell this story about when I was in seventh grade, we had
(10:35):
this opportunity, we did a mock trial because one of the components of our education was
to learn about the legal system.
And part of the way that they taught us about the legal system was to actually kind of put
on a mock trial in class.
And it was kind of silly and the whole thing was, I think it was prosecuting the big bad
wolf for killing the three little pigs or something like that.
(10:58):
And I volunteered to be, I think I was the defense attorney of all things, the criminal
then, so I defended the big bad wolf.
And I don't remember what happened, but that experience always sort of stuck with me.
And even all those years later, sort of out of college in my mid twenties thinking about
what was interesting to me and what I had always found interesting about things we'd
(11:23):
studied in school, that experience stuck out to me.
And the fact that I'd always just gravitated to social issues.
I liked classes like history and government and things like that more than math and science.
And so sort of my interest in those areas also drove me to the law.
And so it just kind of felt right and felt like the right decision at the time, both
(11:47):
in terms of what else I was interested in and what made sense for me.
Very interesting.
I still kind of get over the idea that you had to do a mock trial in seventh grade, which
is pretty tough.
I just think back to some of the seventh grade boys, I was in class with them and they were
just doing absolutely nice.
I'm sure it was, but somehow it stuck with me as a positive experience.
(12:11):
And it's funny because I don't remember the details that well, but it just resonates with
me even as I think about it now as something that was positive for me in that context.
Yeah, that's really incredible.
You know, as I sort of think about it, music and law seem to be like polar opposites in
terms of like, you know, just part of your brain, one is super creative, the other one
(12:35):
is very stringent, which I guess music has got some stringent stuff as well.
But have you found any parallels between studying music and performing music versus
the lower level?
Yeah, I think that there's actually a fair amount of overlap because I think that there
are more opportunities for creativity in the law than you might think.
(12:59):
And music has certainly a logical analytical side to it too, which is probably part of
what I like about it.
You have sort of music is in a sense, it's like a language.
And you have the analytical part of both kind of learning that language and learning the
rules of say music theory and and how it all comes together, which is important to understand
(13:23):
if you want to understand the structure of your of the pieces and how they're put together
and why and that sort of thing.
And then there's also the technical physical aspects of learning the instrument, right,
learning the piano, that's a physical skill.
And there are sort of technical components to that that you have to learn about how to
do certain things.
(13:43):
And so there is that logical technical side to it.
And then you have the artistic side where even even, you know, delving into the music
when say I'm learning a new piece and studying a score, you know, I'm looking at it, I'm
thinking about it maybe creatively in terms of what I think it might express, but I'm
doing that in a very logical context of looking at the notes that are written on the page
(14:08):
and and kind of trying to figure out, OK, well, there's these harmonies and and this
goes together.
And so what might that all mean from a creative artistic standpoint?
And then, you know, when I sit down to actually play the piece, say for a group of people
or something, that's when now you can be creative and kind of let all of that go and just listen
to what you're doing and and try new things and and new phrasings and different things.
(14:34):
So to have the analytical side where you're where you're studying and trying to put it
together.
And then you have sort of the performance side where you can forget about all of that
and just be creative.
And I think in the law, you know, the law itself, analyzing a statute or a case or something
to that nature is is very analytical.
But when you talk about representing a client and looking at a situation and asking yourself,
(14:59):
OK, well, how how do I best help this person?
How can I strategize?
How can how can we get to a result that's going to put them in the best position they
can be?
That's highly creative often in your brainstorming and thinking about it's often, yes, there's
the law, but then we're thinking, OK, but practically, what can we do here?
(15:20):
And that, I think, is some of the most fun part of the law is kind of that creative brainstorming
and coming up with strategies and ideas within the confines of all of the rules and everything
that you know.
And it's kind of like, OK, well, where with it?
Where can we play in this gray area?
(15:41):
And how can we be creative with our approach to best help the client?
And so I think there's really both the law and music kind of have both sides of that
coin.
Yeah, really interesting.
Never thought about it that way where learning music is a skill, right?
It's a very technical, very analytical, you know, comes next, comes next, comes next,
(16:03):
which law is sort of the same portion of it and then the creative side of just letting
go.
And I guess that's what you're doing in law as well.
You've got the answer and how you just got to express it in the right way.
Yeah, that's already, well, learn something new every day.
Music can be the same thing.
That's pretty incredible.
(16:23):
So you went off to law school, you became an attorney.
There's been quite a path along the way there.
And you know, now you've got one of the best law firms, at least Santa Rosa, probably,
you know, if not California in the country, just a fantastic room that you're at at the
moment.
So you didn't start off there.
So can you walk us through a little bit of your legal career?
(16:45):
Yeah, I have had an interesting trek, so to speak.
So when I went to law school, I originally wanted to be a DA, no surprise.
I mean, I talked about my trial experience in seventh grade, so to speak.
You know, that was my intention, you know, that this is what I want to do.
(17:07):
And a couple of things happened along the way, I got the opportunity to work on a capital
murder case.
And it was actually, it was very interesting, it was a gentleman who had been convicted
many years ago, but was now raising the claim that he was not competent to be executed,
because the law says you can't actually execute someone who's not mentally competent.
(17:33):
And I got assigned to the team to work on this case, and so we went down to the Attorney
General's office in San Francisco, and they had this whole guy's life in boxes.
I mean, all the, going back to his elementary school report cards and teacher reports, and
so we were coming through all of that.
And it just, it was just very, the whole thing was very sad, because of course this
(17:56):
was someone who had done something very wrong, that you would not condone, but at the same
time, you just felt this sense of what this person had gone through.
And it just made me, it opened my eyes to the idea that the law is a lot maybe more
gray than people may think, or at least for me it was.
And I saw a lot of gray area in things, and I wasn't really sure how I felt about that,
(18:20):
and whether I really wanted to be on sort of one side or the other of that coin in the
criminal law, which tends to, I think, be more on the black and white side, right?
Because the law in order, right and wrong.
So there was that part, and then just from a practical perspective, I graduated law school
in 2008 when the housing crisis was happening.
(18:43):
I mean, I got my bar results in November of 2008.
And so no one was hiring.
No government agency was hiring at that point.
And it just so happened that another very good firm here in town at the time was hiring,
and I knew one of the associates that already worked there through a mutual friend.
So he put in a good word for me, and I had heard good things about that firm.
(19:06):
But it was doing civil business litigation, which was something I really didn't know anything
about and hadn't really thought about doing.
But there were only one or two things that I'd sort of said I definitely didn't want
to do.
One was family law, and the other, and I also just didn't want to do criminal defense or
anything like that.
And I thought, well, it's a good firm, good reputation, it's a good opportunity, it's
(19:29):
a good job right out of law school.
And so I started there, and I did that for about five, six years.
And just kind of decided that that wasn't for me.
I was doing a lot of work for banks and kind of big businesses and things like that.
And I had spent a lot of time in bankruptcy court because of course in 080910, everybody
(19:51):
was filing bankruptcy, and especially if you were representing banks.
You know, I just, I had an opportunity where I had a case where I got a good settlement
out of it, and I had a chance to go out on my own and had some funds to start my own
practice.
And so I did that for about two years and then kind of felt like, well, this is great,
(20:13):
but I'm kind of lonely out here on my own.
And I found that I kind of missed the group component of practicing at a firm and a group
of people.
And so from there, I actually got the opportunity to work in-house at a local company here through
a friend who was transitioning to a different position.
So hers was coming open.
(20:34):
And so she told me about it and I applied.
So I actually ran the corporate compliance department for a medical technology company
here in Santa Rosa for a while, which was totally different from the day-to-day practice
of law that I had been doing for years.
I can imagine.
It was a nice change of pace.
What was that?
Major change in mindset going from outside to inside, right?
(20:58):
Yeah, definitely.
And I had never worked really in the corporate world.
So now here I am reporting directly to the CFO of the company and I don't really understand
corporate politics too much, but I figured it out.
It is the CFO, right?
But that actually ended up being short-lived.
(21:20):
The company filed bankruptcy about nine months after I started and the whole company got
laid off.
So at that point, I was in sort of the, I just need a job mode.
And so I got a job as a firm doing insurance defense work on Petaloma, which was kind of
another thing that I had never really wanted to do.
But I lived here.
(21:40):
I had a life here.
I didn't want to move.
And so I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to do this until I come across something that
sort of speaks to me better.
And I had known one of the partners here, Stephanie, has going back to my first firm
days because we had both spent a lot of time in bankruptcy court together and had gotten
(22:00):
to know each other a little bit.
So when I saw this firm was hiring, I reached out to her and we chatted and that was that.
And I've been here ever since.
So that's kind of how I got here.
I think I was always looking for a place with people who I felt like I could just settle
(22:21):
down with and like, okay, for me, the work is the work, but a big part of what makes
it enjoyable or the people you get to spend your day with.
If you're going to the office filled with people you don't want to be around, that's
can make for a pretty miserable experience.
You know, for me, even on the bad days, you can get through those if you're surrounded
(22:41):
by people that you actually enjoy working with and you care about.
I think it just took me a while to find that place.
But once I did, it's been great ever since.
So yeah, that's a great lesson for everybody.
Find a place that you're comfortable to work at that makes you happy to work at.
I know sometimes people are just running that corporate ladder hoping for the next big stepping
(23:02):
stone, but it sucks to work there, you probably should.
Yeah, you just you're never going to find what you're looking for if you're unhappy.
So Brian, what type of law do you focus on now?
Because there's been a bit of a jump around in what you started with and what you've done
along the way.
What's your primary focus these days?
Yeah, my primary focus these days is mostly trust in the states.
(23:26):
So that can be everything from the estate planning part, you know, drafting trusts and
wills and things for people answering the questions counseling on their estate planning.
But the biggest component of what I do now is administration and litigation in the trust
in the state world.
You know, when you have a probate estate or a trust, there's a trustee or someone in
(23:50):
charge of administering that and they often need legal advice about what they are not
allowed to do that kind of thing.
Or maybe a beneficiary of their family trust and may have some questions about, hey, I
think I have these rights.
I'm not sure what's going on.
I need a lawyer to kind of help guide me.
And then, you know, of course, unfortunately, when parents pass away, their kids often end
(24:14):
up in disputes over how to handle things.
And so, you know, I often say I help them try to figure out how to resolve those issues.
And so that's the biggest piece of what I do and then, you know, I do a fair amount of
related business work because, you know, trust on things like real estate.
(24:34):
And so we'll often have issues involving real property that you need to deal with or property
taxes or that kind of thing.
And so, I guess it's not terribly surprising that trusts in the states and business sort
of end up going hand to hand, hand to hand quite a lot.
Because business owners are often the ones coming to us to draft their estate plans or
(24:56):
help deal with their disputes that they're in.
And so it's a bit of a hybrid between kind of trust in the states and business and kind
of helping people resolve disputes in those areas.
And you're enjoying this sort of change in pace to your day?
I know it's been over five years now, but it's not where you quite started.
(25:17):
Yeah, no.
I definitely do.
You know, it's a, when you're just doing the civil business litigation, you know, for
example, I mean, it's like every case you have is a court case and there's court deadlines
coming up and you have multiple trials scheduled in any given year.
And now, you know, it's a bit of a more of a blend.
(25:39):
I think, you know, for example, I think I have maybe one trial scheduled so far for
the rest of this year, maybe another one will pop up.
There's a lot less emphasis on, I would say, the court litigation process and that part
of it is there is in sort of civil cases, so to speak.
And because we're dealing with most often with family members in one way or another
(26:04):
who are fighting with each other, there's more of a personal component to it.
And there's a lot more emphasis on, okay, how can we practically solve this?
Problem for these people because litigation, you know, going to trial, so to speak is probably
not what's in anyone's best interest here.
(26:27):
You know, the people who generally win in that scenario are the lawyers, you know, and
I tell clients who are considering litigating, you know, I make more money if you do that.
But perhaps we should consider, you know, an alternative course of action that might
be better for you.
So I really appreciate the fact that as opposed to when you're just fighting over dollars
(26:52):
and cents a lot of the time, we're dealing with people and there's an emphasis on how
can we avoid leaving them in a bad situation where, you know, yeah, we won, so to speak,
but now their family relationships are ruined.
They probably spent more money than they really needed to and they're probably not in the
(27:13):
best situation.
And so I really like that component of this work of melding the legal aspect and the logical
piece of it with the personal component and remembering that at the end of the day, these
are people that we're dealing with and that we're trying to help.
And sometimes, you know, there's less of an emphasis on how can we win because winning
(27:38):
is often a lose-lose in these cases, you know, and so how can we just put all of these
parties in the best possible situation because they're often family members.
Helping your client can also be helping the opposing side if it means being practical
(27:58):
and coming to a resolution that is reasonable because frankly, at the end of the day, if
people are coming to a lawyer, the odds are that at least one, if not more than one of
them are being unreasonable in some way or another, especially if it's, you know, in
the trust and the state context and we're fighting over inheritance, it's like, you
know, okay, there really should be a way to resolve this.
(28:19):
The odds are that someone's being unreasonable because they're still upset about something
that happened when you guys were younger, you know, because there's always, we always
kind of joke that it's not really about the money.
I mean, it is, but there's always something else in these cases that is driving it.
(28:41):
And, and it's like sometimes it's as simple as now the mom or dad are gone, these siblings
know that once they're done fighting, they may never speak to each other again.
And so they just want to keep fighting because that's all they have.
Yeah.
And so sometimes you're even just dealing with the fact that they don't want to acknowledge
the end sort of the end of their relationship.
(29:02):
And so they just keep fighting with each other because they can't figure out what else to
do.
So I like that, that part of it, the personal component of this area of the law.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
I mean, you're about people fighting and generally there's a lot of money involved.
I can sort of get it right at the same time.
I don't think those people put in all the hard work and have a plan in place.
(29:27):
And they definitely didn't elicit the attorney as a beneficiary.
You know, that's right.
It's like, hey, attorney, you can have a cut of the pie as well.
Yeah.
It's very interesting to talk about that part where this could be the last time they
talk because once this is done, I mean, that's something you don't really think about.
I got a pretty good relationship with my brother and I, you know, I think about parents'
(29:52):
tasks.
I don't think we would ever talk again.
But we do live in different countries and probably would have less communication.
But, you know, you have to act on the last right from living distances.
So, yeah, I think people often...
Yeah, I think people think about the law and from a layperson's perspective, they think,
(30:18):
oh, it's objective, it's black and white, it's rules.
And then you have to remember that, yes, that's true, but we're dealing with people at the
end of the day and the nature of rules and laws are that they're broad and they're intended
to sort of apply generally.
But because they have to take into account such a broad set of possible outcomes that
(30:41):
might come up under that rule, they're really not meant to deal with individual people and
individual situations.
And so that's really the interesting part of it for me is how do we take this, what's
supposed to be this objective black and white rule and now apply it to these very real world
(31:02):
people who are in usually one of the worst situations they've ever been in because no
one likes to be in a legal dispute.
It's not fun.
And so, you know, to me, that's the most interesting part is looking at this and saying, okay,
well, the law, that's all well and good.
We know what that is, but now how do we problem solve within that context and try to give
(31:26):
our client the best advice and put them in the best position we can?
And that's the most challenging part, of course, do because people aren't always reasonable
or willing to listen.
So sometimes you even have to get your own client to the right place and sort of get
them to get out of their own way.
(31:46):
So to speak sometimes, you know,
somebody's very analytical.
I love the things to be black and white over time managing people as well as having kids.
I've realized there's a lot of gray wall of and learning to operate in that gray is the
difference between success and failure and understanding, you know, that there's probably
going to be a little bit different for every person, you know, the well, but yeah, the
(32:09):
depth of that gray would be different depending on that person's risk tolerance, how open
they are to conversations, how much they're willing to listen, how much they're willing
to acknowledge that maybe they're in the wrong a little bit as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I would say, you know, the interesting thing about it that one of the things that
I learned, you know, along the way is we have this sort of again, the law and it's presumably
(32:34):
black and white, but when you're handling a legal dispute, there's there's a decision
maker out there, somewhere, right?
There's a judge or a jury that's going to decide this case based on that law and all
of the facts and the evidence that you're going to put in and how that decision maker
is going to view all of that is anyone's guess, right?
(32:55):
And I mean, with a judge, if you know the judge well enough, maybe, you know, there's
probably some more certainty there.
Juries are very difficult to predict because yeah, you have the law and the judge is going
to tell them, okay, this is the law, but they're all going to bring their own personal view
of the evidence and what they think and who they think is telling the truth and what persuaded
(33:16):
them and what didn't to that analysis.
And so again, even in the decision making context, you're dealing with people and their
opinions and their beliefs and and how that's all going to affect the outcome.
And so that's often very gray.
And that's one of the most challenging parts of advising clients because they want to know,
(33:37):
well, what's the answer?
What's going to happen if I go to trial?
And most often the answer is, well, I'm not really sure.
Here's what I think.
Here's the evidence.
Here's the arguments that we're going to make on your behalf and how that might play out.
But here's what they're going to say.
And the jury might be persuaded by that or the judge might think this.
(33:59):
And so there's a lot of back and forth and a lot of gray area because I can have my opinion
about what the law says and how it should be applied in this situation.
But that doesn't mean that that's what the decision maker is going to think, right?
Because there's another side that's taking a different position.
And so almost by definition, there's more than one reasonable way to view the situation.
(34:21):
Because if it was that clear cut and not black and white, we probably wouldn't be in a dispute.
So the fact that we're in this dispute, Lard may suggest that there is some gray area there.
And so then you factor in the decision maker, which is an unknown.
And so it becomes very complicated.
And so you take this area that people believe is very objective and very black and white
(34:46):
and you realize very quickly that actually it's very gray.
And predicting how things are going to play out is very difficult.
Yeah, it makes me feel like that there is their story, the one person story, the other
person story on the truth.
This feels like there is one attorney's story, the second attorney's story, and then there's
(35:07):
the interpretation of those stories.
And that actually is just the, I mean, in a sense, that's the nature of the legal system
we have in the US, right?
Because it's not the only option.
There's other countries that have different ways of doing it.
And in our system, it's what we call an adversarial system.
And the idea is you pick the two sides against each other and tell their stories.
(35:33):
And somewhere in the middle, the jury will decide what the real truth is.
Whether that's the most effective way of getting at the truth, you can argue that, but it's
the system that we have.
And so you're right.
And unfortunately, I think, oftentimes in law schools, lawyers are trained to be, we
talk about the zealous advocate that sort of becomes the mantra of a lot of attorneys,
(35:57):
that your job is to advocate for your client to the bitter end, right?
Make every argument you can think of.
But I think hidden in that way of thinking can be a trap because from my perspective,
the best thing you can do often for your client is to be objective, is to look at the situation
from the middle and say, okay, well, here are the arguments I can make.
(36:22):
But this is what the other side is going to say.
Sometimes we have a phrase when we're talking about litigation where we ask, is the other
side drinking their own Kool-Aid?
Or are we drinking ours, right?
Are we so wedded to our own position and our own view of things that we're not seeing the
objective truth of things?
We're missing something.
(36:42):
And I think that happens a lot because lawyers get so tied to the idea of needing to win
for their clients that you forget that there's an opportunity for what I would call a better
win if you can look at the situation objectively from the beginning and set your client on
the right path from the very start in terms of how to see the situation.
(37:04):
And so, again, I think it's one of those things where you can look at it black and white and
I can have my opinion about, well, this is how the case should turn out and this is what
should happen for this client.
Just looking at it that way is probably not what's best for the client because what the
client really needs is for me to look at what the other side is saying and say, hey, yeah,
(37:25):
that's a problem or, hey, we need to be worried about this or you need to think about this
or how about another perspective?
Have you thought about it this way?
Sometimes that's the best thing you can do for your client because they're the ones living
the dispute and it often is the worst situation someone's ever been in.
And so it's very easy to kind of lose the forest for the trees in that scenario, right?
(37:48):
And they become so entrenched in their view of the situation and so convinced that they're
right that sometimes the best thing you can do for them is help them see why that might
not be the case.
Because if you just double down on everything they're saying, then they're going to say,
oh, yeah, well, then let's go to court and let's fight.
And that may not be what's best for them in the long run.
(38:10):
Yeah, very interesting.
It sounds like there's a lot of people skills involved in this portion of law.
Do you assume you didn't learn that at law school?
Like where do you learn to sort of understand?
I mean, it seems very contrary to the American way of, you know, this fight, fight, fight.
It's just a lot more, you know, it feels very sort of like having mediation with your client.
(38:39):
You know, I think to a certain extent it's part of who I, it's part of my personality.
I have always been sort of a middle ground, let's find what's fair, be objective sort
of person.
Even when I was a kid growing up, that was sort of always my role.
I was always the peacekeeper.
You know, I'm kind of the neutral.
(39:00):
Like you said, mediator.
I mean, even in litigation, I think that sometimes is a good role to play.
Actually given that most cases are resolved these days, right?
Almost every case settles and really in the trust and estate context, they really almost
all do.
And so, you know, if you're going to be in a mediation, it's good to have already thought
(39:24):
about all the things the mediator is going to throw at you.
But you're right.
So I think to answer your question, I think part of it is just my natural inclination.
I like to help people try to find a resolution.
And so I've just always, always, always done that.
So I think I've had a lot of practice.
But I've also just always been interested in psychology.
(39:48):
And I've always had friends in that, in that world, and I've studied a fair amount of it
and kind of personal development and sort of.
So I feel like I bring just different things I've learned along the way.
I don't know that I've ever studied anything technically or specifically that it's definitely,
like you said, not something I learned in law school.
(40:08):
I think it's really mostly just something I picked up along the way.
I think a lot from working with clients, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes along the
way and learned from those and said, well, you know, maybe that wasn't the best advice
to give that client because it took us down this path or, you know, and so I think also
there's always room to, you know, learn from every situation and look back at every case
(40:32):
of handle every client I've had and say, well, you know, we got a good result or that went
particularly well, but how can we have done better?
Or, you know, hey, that case didn't go the way we thought it would.
And, you know, what can we learn from that?
And so I think a lot of, you know, after almost 16 years of doing this, I've just also learned
(40:52):
a lot about dealing with people who are in legal disputes in particular and kind of how
to maneuver that situation and how to talk to them about what they're going through.
Yeah, I'm going to throw you a curveball question on the top.
Okay.
If somebody wants to develop their skills, either mediation or the ability to, I guess,
(41:14):
influence or convince people to sort of resolve issues rather than just keep fighting, is
there any books that you've maybe read in the past that might help people along their
way?
There's a really, so there's a couple of good books in like the mediation world that
are sort of about that.
I think there's one really good one.
I think it's called, I think there's two.
(41:37):
I think it's called Getting to Yes and Once or Getting Past Now or something like that.
William Ury, you are a Y, I think is the author.
He's a very well-known mediator.
But I think the biggest thing I learned, I remember reading those books, it's about finding
common ground, I think.
(41:59):
The first thing for me is we're fighting about ABC, but over here on D, okay, here's where
we can agree.
When you're dealing with people who are emotional about the situation and their family members
and their fighting, I find where can we start finding things that we can agree on?
(42:24):
That just seems to be kind of a fundamental good way to start.
But I also think, again, it's about being reasonable.
It's about being able to empathize with the other side's position.
You may not agree and you may say, well, I still think that's unfair or wrong, but the
ability to see the other side's perspective and put yourself in their shoes and say, okay,
(42:50):
well, from over here, I see why we see it that way.
But if I was standing over there on their side, how would I see it?
And so I think the second thing I've learned is the ability to really see the other side's
perspective because as the sort of advocate or the attorney for one party, one of the
(43:11):
most helpful ways to sort of bringing my client often where they need to be is helping them
see the other side's perspective because they're so entrenched again in their view and how wrong
they feel the other side is and how unfair the situation is that if over time you can
(43:32):
get them to see that in some way or another, if they were on the other side, they would
see it that way too.
And it really brings a human component to it and they can realize that, okay, this person's
not necessarily being evil, they're not the worst person ever.
They just have a particular perspective on this situation and it's different from yours.
(43:53):
And now, okay, now that we can see each other, and then how do you take our perspective and
go to the other side and get them to see that?
And I think part of the mediation conflict resolution process is about bringing the
parties closer and closer by getting them to share more and more of each other's perspective
(44:14):
to the point that they can find somewhere they can meet in the middle because resolutions
are no one's winning, right?
I mean, I tell clients when we go to mediation, just prepare yourself for the fact that if
we settle the case today, you're going to leave a little bit unhappy.
And they always sort of look at me confused.
And I say, well, look, there's no winning, the nature of a compromise is that you're
(44:37):
going to give up something you don't want to, they're going to give up something they
don't want to.
And so if we settle a good settlement means everybody's a little bit unhappy, right?
Because we were all reasonable, we met in the middle and we found something that we
can all live with.
No one loves it, but that's the nature of a compromise.
And so the way to get people there, I think is getting them to share perspective in one
(45:00):
way or another.
I've always heard that the best negotiation has gone really well with both sides are
a little unhappy.
Yeah.
And there's books, I looked at that, it's getting passed, no negotiating in difficult situations.
There you go.
And he has another book, which is a co-author book, getting to yes, no negotiating agreement
without getting in, who is Roger Fisher and William Erie, 4.3 stars and 4.5 stars on Amazon.
(45:26):
So apparently both really good books, both over have over a thousand reviews.
So that's pretty good.
Brian, everybody has challenges along the way.
And it sort of defines their career.
Can you share with us sort of a difficulty that you've maybe experienced along your career
(45:47):
path that's led you to where you are today?
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things struggles for me with the law was kind of on the other
side of where I am now kind of talking about being able to be objective and see both sides
was in the beginning, that all felt very personal to me.
(46:11):
And I had a very, I had a difficult time in the early part of my career kind of dealing
with conflict because everything felt like an attack.
It really early on in my career, I had a lot of anxiety and just a real struggle with kind
of the litigation paradigm and the fact that I had to get to the point where I learned
(46:37):
that it wasn't all about me and I didn't need to take everything personally, right?
Like opposing counsel is telling me that I'm wrong and how could I take that position and
how unreasonable I'm being.
And when those letters would first come in, I would just get very hurt by them and think,
well, how can you say that about me?
I'm the most reasonable person I know.
(46:58):
I mean, come on.
And so, but it really was a struggle.
I mean, for the first couple of years of my career, it really took a toll on me and to
the point where it was really hard.
But I talked with a lot of people, I went to some counseling, you know, and tried to
figure out like what can I do?
(47:19):
You know, obviously, I feel like, you know, I felt like there was something about the
way I was perceiving it and my perspective on the situation that was contributing to
the problem.
And so I thought, well, okay, let me try to get a better perspective on what's going on
here.
And so I worked through that.
And yeah, but it was hard.
And I, you know, I feel like oftentimes like that is, you know, I grew as a result and
(47:45):
I was a better person on the other side of it.
I was standing how difficult it was at times.
And I really had to learn how to just take a step back and realize that, you know, I
don't always have to be right.
I don't always have the answer.
And you know, I don't always have to be perfect.
And, and it's fine for people to tell me that they disagree with me and that doesn't mean
(48:07):
I'm being unreasonable or that there's anything wrong.
And so that was a real challenge for me.
I think it's a great lesson for a lot of people, right?
It's okay for other people to have an opinion.
I think a lot of times people consider somebody else's opinion attack on our own opinion rather
than a defense of their opinion.
And when you start realizing that people just defending their own position, there's less
(48:29):
need for you to be defensive of somebody else's opinion, which generally just makes life a
lot easier.
Because if you're constantly feeling like you have to be defensive, like life is just
shit.
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, and of course I realized at some point along the way that like, well, I'm
defending my perspective.
And so, you know, I guess if it's okay for me to do it must be okay for them to do because
(48:52):
hey, I'm not always right.
I don't always know best.
And so just because, just because I'm defending my position doesn't mean they should just
go, yeah, well, of course you're right, Brian.
You know, that was sort of, I think a little bit of the mentality I had in the beginning
and I had to learn that, well, no, wait a minute, I'm not necessarily right.
I just have an opinion or a perspective, but they're allowed to have theirs too.
(49:14):
So Brian, can you share with us the best piece of advice you've received that helped you
along your career?
I actually think that that might be what it is to learn how to not take things personally.
That was something that a therapist of mine, I think at one point said to me about this
(49:36):
whole thing.
And something about putting it that way just clicked for me thinking about like it was,
I really, I remember sitting there thinking that is what I'm doing, isn't it?
And that's when I really got like, oh, yeah, wait, I'm not necessarily right.
They're allowed to have an opinion.
And it was like, oh, I shouldn't, why am I, why am I taking that so personally?
(50:01):
Because once I was able to kind of flip that switch, things just got a lot better.
Because this can be a really, certainly a really difficult profession and definitely
one that's very hard if you are sort of too much of a perfectionist and sort of can't
be open minded.
(50:22):
It can be real difficult, I think, for a lot of people.
Great.
If you were talking to new attorneys or young professionals, what advice would you give
them to sort of help them set themselves up for success?
I would say, really, like keep in mind what you don't know, that you don't know what you
(50:44):
don't know.
Because when I was a new attorney, I thought, okay, well, I've been to Losdell, I passed
the bar.
You know, I must know what I'm doing.
And then I started my first job and realized I had no clue how to actually be a lawyer.
I knew I had to read cases and statutes, you know, the sort of the practical, substantive
(51:05):
things that Losdell teaches you.
But I had no idea how to actually do the day-to-day job.
And so it took me a long time to kind of realize that I really needed to step back and not
make too many assumptions about what I thought I knew.
And as lawyers out of Losdell, you just pass the bar, you sort of think like everyone's
(51:29):
really gung-ho and they want to do a great job.
But it's okay to admit that you don't know stuff.
I thought as a lawyer, okay, well, now I have to have all the answers.
And I didn't.
I didn't have any of the answers.
And that made it hard for me to rely on sort of the older, more experienced attorneys who
(51:52):
were supposed to be mentoring me because I felt like, oh, well, I'm already supposed
to know the answer and they're going to think I'm stupid if I tell them I don't know what
to do.
And in hindsight, I realize now that no, the right thing to do was to go to them and say,
hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
Can you help me point me in the right direction?
And so, you know, when I work with new attorneys and mentor people, that's one of the things
(52:17):
I try to impart to them is ask as many questions as you can.
Ask and ask and ask and learn from the more experienced people around you because that
is actually the only way.
If you want to learn how to do this job by reading books and trying to just study and
figure out on your own, it's going to take a lot longer and it's going to mean making
(52:39):
a lot of mistakes along the way that are bad for clients that you can avoid.
And so I really try to, because I think a lot of, this isn't just for me, but my impression
from a lot of young attorneys I work with is that they're afraid to ask questions because
they're concerned that they'll be perceived as not very good at their job or not competent.
(53:00):
And it's like, well, so I try to get them to understand that, no, we don't expect you
to know anything actually, not only not everything, but anything.
So just ask a lot of questions.
It's fine.
And that's how you're going to learn.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a great advice for all people coming to provincial space.
(53:20):
Accountants, like your technical knowledge, you get you so far, the rest of it comes with
experience and you can't speed up time, but you can steal experience from other people
by being open to asking questions and really pay attention when there's more experienced
people are explaining to you a situation or some history that they have.
(53:44):
It can make such a big difference because you're effectively absorbing their knowledge
and their experience to using your own situation.
So not asking questions is a massive failure.
So I always say, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask and be open and listen.
It's easy to ask questions.
It's much harder to actually pay attention and hear what the words they're actually
(54:08):
saying.
Brian, this has been an amazing conversation, but I'd like to get to know you a little bit
more on the personal side.
So is there anything you'd like to share with the audience that would just give us a little
peek into who Brian the person is?
We've obviously heard about you as the attorney.
We've heard about you as the musician, but share something about you that will just give
us a little bit of insight into Brian, the everyday person.
(54:30):
Sure.
So the other two other things that I'm very interested in, aside from music, obviously,
are cooking and the outdoors.
So I love to cook.
I spend a lot of time cooking.
I cook dinner most nights after work when I get home.
And so I had my parents over last night for dinner.
I made us all a nice meal.
(54:50):
So that's something I'm very interested in.
And the other one is the outdoors.
I love hiking.
My brother and I mountain bike together pretty much once a week.
My husband and I and our nephew went hiking up to Sugarloaf up to the top of the mountain
on Saturday.
And so that was a lot of fun.
Those are the kind of some other things I'm interested in that I spend my time on.
(55:15):
So.
Okay.
So what's your signature dish?
Any kind of fresh pasta.
That's what I made.
I like to make pasta from scratch and I make lots of different sauces to go with them
depending on what I'm in the mood for.
But I would say that cuisine I'm probably most comfortable cooking is Italian.
It's probably what I've done the most.
(55:37):
Favorite hiking trail that you'd recommend to people?
I've actually recently just discovered up in Windsor there's this foothill regional
park if no one's familiar with it up in Windsor has a couple of beautiful little ponds and
a nice trail that you can hike up with a nice view out toward the airport.
(55:57):
It's beautiful up there.
Although I but I think my favorite is hiking up to hiking up Sugarloaf.
I love to get up to the top of mountain up there and see the Napa and Sonoma valleys
and see down to the bay.
I mean the view from up there is pretty amazing.
So I love to go up there.
This was yesterday.
This last weekend was our first time this year getting up there.
(56:18):
So that was that was great.
Well, I've just written those two down.
I like to punish my kids taking them on long long high.
So I try to figure that one out.
The one that was at the other one doesn't they can buy pretty pretty cars.
That's always great.
Nice.
But yeah, that's awesome.
(56:39):
I appreciate your time today.
But as a pretty conversations tradition, we like to end off with some rapid fire questions.
Okay.
Questions for you.
Let me know if you're ready.
Okay, go for it.
What is your dream vacation?
(57:00):
Dream vacation.
I would say places somewhere I haven't been.
Your game.
Highland.
Highland.
Nice.
Yes.
Do you prefer audio books or paper books?
Oh, I like both.
(57:22):
But I'd say my if I had to pick paper.
If you had 20 minutes to exercise, what would you use those 20 minutes to do?
20 minutes to what?
Exercise.
And hiking for sure outdoors.
What is your favorite piece of technology that you're using at the moment to make your
(57:42):
life easier?
I would say my iPad because I can store all of my music on it.
So I don't need books and books of sheet music.
I can just put it all on my iPad.
Last question.
What was your favorite meal growing up?
(58:04):
Chinese food.
And he can go going out to eat Chinese food in my family.
That was always my favorite.
Chinese Chinese or American Chinese?
American Chinese.
Sorry.
Yes, I have to be more specific.
I just always intrigued.
That was that was all I knew growing up for sure.
I've had I've had more authentic nowadays, but as a kid, it was American style Chinese
(58:25):
food all the way.
What's that favorite dish?
What's that one that you have to order every time?
I mean, sour chicken.
That's my mom.
That was my mom's of my favorite.
We always had to order that one.
And with that, we end another party of conversations.
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning and installation.
Today we've gained insight from our guests and taken another step towards understanding
(58:48):
the first atmosphere of leadership in business.
Remember each conversation is a step towards positive transformation of business to you.
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to find and career opportunities.
Don't forget to subscribe to Period Conversations on YouTube and Spotify so you never miss a
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(59:10):
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It's our most active and linked in with our viewership conversation.
Join us next time for more engaging stories and fights to conversations that we're making.
Until then, keep striving for excellence and rising growth.
Thank you for listening.
Be fine and good time.
Welcome to Pretty Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting
(00:10):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, St. Stephens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery from unraveling the unique stories that shared our guest careers
to the invaluable advice that filled their success.
We're here to provide you with simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career in
personal growth.
(00:31):
Whether you're a budding professional or a seasoned executive, these conversations are
designed to offer insight and perspective that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Pretty Conversations.
Today, I am fortunate enough to have Brian Correale, an accomplished attorney and associate
with Friedman Goldberg, Wargo, and Hess.
(00:52):
Brian specializes in civil litigation and corporate legal compliance with practicing
and encompassing business law, trust in the state, and litigation.
Since joining the firm in 2019, he has demonstrated a profound commitment to excellence, integrity,
and legal field.
A graduate of the University of San Francisco School of Law, Brian's academic career has
marked numerous awards for his writing and advocacy skills, highlighting his pro-est in
(01:16):
legal argumentation and brief composition.
Beyond his legal accolades, Brian brings up a unique perspective in his practice of
being majored in music with emphasis in piano performance at early-name universities.
An active member of the Sonoma County Bar Association and a certified member of the
Ethical Alliance, Brian is deeply committed to anti-corruption compliance, corporate
transparency, and ethical business dealing.
(01:38):
We're not navigating the complexity of the law.
He indulges in his passion of music, both as a pianist and as an advocate, and a concert
attendee fostering the arts in his community.
Today we explore Brian's journey through law and music, his insights into the evolving
landscape of legal compliance, and how he debalances the manning career of his artistic
overseas.
Brian, it's a pleasure to have you with us.
(01:59):
Thank you, Zane.
It's a pleasure to be here with you today.
So I always find the most fascinating part about you is that you're just this ridiculously
talented young man.
And that's not even to take into account the legal side of it, but it always blows my
mind that this is just a big part of you.
And when it came up in conversation for the first time, I was like, what?
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What is how?
And it clearly is something that defines people and people that defines you in people's minds
and makes you memorable.
And it's sort of a little bit of a cheat code in the world of networking and making sure
people think of you when it comes to referrals as well.
Yeah, definitely.
(02:43):
It's certainly a memorable thing.
It's not something that very many people have in their background.
I don't know any other attorneys really.
Yeah, it's definitely a good conversation piece and certainly one that sticks in people's
minds.
Yeah, and it's not that you're just a pianist.
You're like very, very good from all of the people I've received.
(03:03):
So that helps as well.
Because I think a lot of people first have seen you perform before they heard you're
an attorney rather than this is an attorney that plays the piano.
Yeah, it's one of those things where I've kept up with it over the years.
So it's more than just a hobby, but something that I, like you said, is a passion and something
that I, even though I don't do it for my career anymore, maybe as I intended way back in the
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day, it's something that I still do.
I still play at least a little bit every day if I can.
And I'm heavily involved in the arts community and have gotten involved in the local community
here with that.
So it's just something that I have kept up with over the years.
I meet a lot of people who say, yeah, you know, I used to play piano or I used to play
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the violin and as their professional careers have gone on, they haven't kept up with it.
But it's something that was always very important to me.
And so even when I sort of switch lanes, so to speak, career and professional wise, I've
kept up with it.
And so it's always going to be an important part of my life for sure.
(04:11):
And how did you get started playing piano?
Is it just something that you got trapped into as a kid or what is the story?
Now, interestingly, that's kind of how it started in the beginning.
My aunt got my cousin and I each a keyboard when we were five.
And I actually started piano lessons and quit pretty quickly.
And then when I was in elementary school, we had a school music program and you could
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learn an instrument.
So they came around to the school and did a presentation and asked the kids what we'd
like to learn.
And I chose the clarinet of all things.
And so I actually started really learning music with the clarinet and really liked that.
I played in the school band and took some private lessons with that and actually played
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clarinet all the way through high school in our school band programs growing up.
Somewhere along the way with that, I said to my parents, you know, this is great.
I love the clarinet, but I'd also like to play something that I can play by myself where
I don't need a whole group or a band to make music.
And so I think I was about 13 or 14 when I took up the piano again, sort of for the
(05:21):
second time.
So this is big, but really, it just came out of I have always loved music.
I like really almost all genres of music.
I like to go to lots of different kinds of concerts and things of that nature.
And so even as a kid growing up, I just listened to a lot of music and it's always just been
something that I really enjoyed.
And so the thing just drove me to the idea of wanting to play an instrument where I could
(05:44):
make music on my own for myself.
And that's really where it started.
That was incredible.
So when everybody else was wanting to play the, you know, the drums and the guitar, you
decided clarinet was the one for you?
Yeah, I guess so.
Whether I think in hindsight, I probably would have taken up a brass instrument instead, the
trumpet or the horn or something, because those are my favorite these days when I go
(06:05):
to the go to an orchestra concert or something.
Yeah, but that's, you know, is just wanted to do something with music.
And when the opportunity came up, I jumped at it and it's always just been part of my
life and something that I do.
And outside of piano and clarinet, do you play any other instruments?
No, I don't.
I fiddled with the guitar a little bit.
(06:27):
My brother has one that has now sort of become mine because he never learned to play.
And so when I said I wanted to learn, he gave it to me.
But I haven't really made a ton of progress on it.
I don't have, I don't have a lot of time to practice a new instrument at this point.
Fair enough.
Do you have the singing voice to go with the ability to play?
(06:48):
I don't have a great singing voice, although I will admit I do enjoy karaoke.
You don't have to be any good to enjoy it.
So that's good.
I mean, I'm really horrible.
So it's much better for people if I stay away from this.
Yeah, I, you know, I had to sing in choirs and things obviously in school when I was
majoring in music.
I think one of the best compliments I got about that was that I have a voice that blends
(07:09):
well with others.
So it doesn't stand out well.
It doesn't stand out too much.
So that the choir teacher thought that was a good thing.
It's better than the alternative, right?
When you have that kind of on-ready thing, but they have to be there.
Yeah.
So at some point you decided, okay, music is great, but I got to do something else.
(07:30):
So tell us about the decision to get into the world of law and become an attorney.
Yeah.
So let's see.
After I graduated with my music degree, I was in a couple of international competitions.
I taught for a while.
I taught at Napa Valley Community College.
I was teaching a couple of piano classes over there.
(07:51):
And just at a certain point it became kind of clear to me that if I was going to do music
professionally, it was going to be primarily teaching.
And so the question was, is that really what I want to do?
Do I enjoy teaching piano so much that that's what I want to do for the rest of my career?
(08:12):
And I love playing and I don't dislike teaching.
I actually like mentoring people.
But I think the idea of teaching a lot of beginning students, young kids piano for years
over and over was just not what I really wanted to do with my career.
I had done that a lot in school, teaching in after school programs and things of that
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nature.
And that just wasn't what I wanted to spend the rest of my career doing.
I thought, okay, I'd like to do something that is a different kind of intellectual challenge.
At that point, music really felt like something that I can do this for me and I'm glad I've
studied it and I've gone down this route just thinking about professionally.
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And for me, I always wanted to do something that was intellectually challenging because
that's having something to kind of keep my mind occupied and challenge me in that way
has always been important.
And I've always loved that aspect of music because delving into the details of it and
kind of trying to understand it for myself is that kind of challenge.
(09:19):
Kind of teaching didn't really present that for me from a long term perspective.
And so I really started to think about what could I do professionally that's really going
to engage me in that way and kind of make me feel like I'm doing something productive
and really beneficial.
And law was really, I would say it was a combination decision of sort of the crossroads of my interests
(09:45):
and just practicality on the practical side.
It was one of the things that already having a master's degree I could go back to school
for and not have to start all over.
Many of the other things I was considering would have required a whole new bachelor's
degree and in most cases even another master's degree.
And so I thought, well, that's six years of time and more investment as opposed to three
(10:09):
years of law school.
So there was that piece of it, but also just thinking about other things that I had always
been interested in growing up, the law had always kind of fascinated me.
A lot of my favorite TV shows as I had grown up had been law related in some way or another.
And in particular, I always tell this story about when I was in seventh grade, we had
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this opportunity, we did a mock trial because one of the components of our education was
to learn about the legal system.
And part of the way that they taught us about the legal system was to actually kind of put
on a mock trial in class.
And it was kind of silly and the whole thing was, I think it was prosecuting the big bad
wolf for killing the three little pigs or something like that.
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And I volunteered to be, I think I was the defense attorney of all things, the criminal
then, so I defended the big bad wolf.
And I don't remember what happened, but that experience always sort of stuck with me.
And even all those years later, sort of out of college in my mid twenties thinking about
what was interesting to me and what I had always found interesting about things we'd
(11:23):
studied in school, that experience stuck out to me.
And the fact that I'd always just gravitated to social issues.
I liked classes like history and government and things like that more than math and science.
And so sort of my interest in those areas also drove me to the law.
And so it just kind of felt right and felt like the right decision at the time, both
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in terms of what else I was interested in and what made sense for me.
Very interesting.
I still kind of get over the idea that you had to do a mock trial in seventh grade, which
is pretty tough.
I just think back to some of the seventh grade boys, I was in class with them and they were
just doing absolutely nice.
I'm sure it was, but somehow it stuck with me as a positive experience.
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And it's funny because I don't remember the details that well, but it just resonates with
me even as I think about it now as something that was positive for me in that context.
Yeah, that's really incredible.
You know, as I sort of think about it, music and law seem to be like polar opposites in
terms of like, you know, just part of your brain, one is super creative, the other one
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is very stringent, which I guess music has got some stringent stuff as well.
But have you found any parallels between studying music and performing music versus
the lower level?
Yeah, I think that there's actually a fair amount of overlap because I think that there
are more opportunities for creativity in the law than you might think.
(12:59):
And music has certainly a logical analytical side to it too, which is probably part of
what I like about it.
You have sort of music is in a sense, it's like a language.
And you have the analytical part of both kind of learning that language and learning the
rules of say music theory and and how it all comes together, which is important to understand
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if you want to understand the structure of your of the pieces and how they're put together
and why and that sort of thing.
And then there's also the technical physical aspects of learning the instrument, right,
learning the piano, that's a physical skill.
And there are sort of technical components to that that you have to learn about how to
do certain things.
(13:43):
And so there is that logical technical side to it.
And then you have the artistic side where even even, you know, delving into the music
when say I'm learning a new piece and studying a score, you know, I'm looking at it, I'm
thinking about it maybe creatively in terms of what I think it might express, but I'm
doing that in a very logical context of looking at the notes that are written on the page
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and and kind of trying to figure out, OK, well, there's these harmonies and and this
goes together.
And so what might that all mean from a creative artistic standpoint?
And then, you know, when I sit down to actually play the piece, say for a group of people
or something, that's when now you can be creative and kind of let all of that go and just listen
to what you're doing and and try new things and and new phrasings and different things.
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So to have the analytical side where you're where you're studying and trying to put it
together.
And then you have sort of the performance side where you can forget about all of that
and just be creative.
And I think in the law, you know, the law itself, analyzing a statute or a case or something
to that nature is is very analytical.
But when you talk about representing a client and looking at a situation and asking yourself,
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OK, well, how how do I best help this person?
How can I strategize?
How can how can we get to a result that's going to put them in the best position they
can be?
That's highly creative often in your brainstorming and thinking about it's often, yes, there's
the law, but then we're thinking, OK, but practically, what can we do here?
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And that, I think, is some of the most fun part of the law is kind of that creative brainstorming
and coming up with strategies and ideas within the confines of all of the rules and everything
that you know.
And it's kind of like, OK, well, where with it?
Where can we play in this gray area?
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And how can we be creative with our approach to best help the client?
And so I think there's really both the law and music kind of have both sides of that
coin.
Yeah, really interesting.
Never thought about it that way where learning music is a skill, right?
It's a very technical, very analytical, you know, comes next, comes next, comes next,
(16:03):
which law is sort of the same portion of it and then the creative side of just letting
go.
And I guess that's what you're doing in law as well.
You've got the answer and how you just got to express it in the right way.
Yeah, that's already, well, learn something new every day.
Music can be the same thing.
That's pretty incredible.
(16:23):
So you went off to law school, you became an attorney.
There's been quite a path along the way there.
And you know, now you've got one of the best law firms, at least Santa Rosa, probably,
you know, if not California in the country, just a fantastic room that you're at at the
moment.
So you didn't start off there.
So can you walk us through a little bit of your legal career?
(16:45):
Yeah, I have had an interesting trek, so to speak.
So when I went to law school, I originally wanted to be a DA, no surprise.
I mean, I talked about my trial experience in seventh grade, so to speak.
You know, that was my intention, you know, that this is what I want to do.
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And a couple of things happened along the way, I got the opportunity to work on a capital
murder case.
And it was actually, it was very interesting, it was a gentleman who had been convicted
many years ago, but was now raising the claim that he was not competent to be executed,
because the law says you can't actually execute someone who's not mentally competent.
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And I got assigned to the team to work on this case, and so we went down to the Attorney
General's office in San Francisco, and they had this whole guy's life in boxes.
I mean, all the, going back to his elementary school report cards and teacher reports, and
so we were coming through all of that.
And it just, it was just very, the whole thing was very sad, because of course this
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was someone who had done something very wrong, that you would not condone, but at the same
time, you just felt this sense of what this person had gone through.
And it just made me, it opened my eyes to the idea that the law is a lot maybe more
gray than people may think, or at least for me it was.
And I saw a lot of gray area in things, and I wasn't really sure how I felt about that,
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and whether I really wanted to be on sort of one side or the other of that coin in the
criminal law, which tends to, I think, be more on the black and white side, right?
Because the law in order, right and wrong.
So there was that part, and then just from a practical perspective, I graduated law school
in 2008 when the housing crisis was happening.
(18:43):
I mean, I got my bar results in November of 2008.
And so no one was hiring.
No government agency was hiring at that point.
And it just so happened that another very good firm here in town at the time was hiring,
and I knew one of the associates that already worked there through a mutual friend.
So he put in a good word for me, and I had heard good things about that firm.
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But it was doing civil business litigation, which was something I really didn't know anything
about and hadn't really thought about doing.
But there were only one or two things that I'd sort of said I definitely didn't want
to do.
One was family law, and the other, and I also just didn't want to do criminal defense or
anything like that.
And I thought, well, it's a good firm, good reputation, it's a good opportunity, it's
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a good job right out of law school.
And so I started there, and I did that for about five, six years.
And just kind of decided that that wasn't for me.
I was doing a lot of work for banks and kind of big businesses and things like that.
And I had spent a lot of time in bankruptcy court because of course in 080910, everybody
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was filing bankruptcy, and especially if you were representing banks.
You know, I just, I had an opportunity where I had a case where I got a good settlement
out of it, and I had a chance to go out on my own and had some funds to start my own
practice.
And so I did that for about two years and then kind of felt like, well, this is great,
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but I'm kind of lonely out here on my own.
And I found that I kind of missed the group component of practicing at a firm and a group
of people.
And so from there, I actually got the opportunity to work in-house at a local company here through
a friend who was transitioning to a different position.
So hers was coming open.
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And so she told me about it and I applied.
So I actually ran the corporate compliance department for a medical technology company
here in Santa Rosa for a while, which was totally different from the day-to-day practice
of law that I had been doing for years.
I can imagine.
It was a nice change of pace.
What was that?
Major change in mindset going from outside to inside, right?
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Yeah, definitely.
And I had never worked really in the corporate world.
So now here I am reporting directly to the CFO of the company and I don't really understand
corporate politics too much, but I figured it out.
It is the CFO, right?
But that actually ended up being short-lived.
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The company filed bankruptcy about nine months after I started and the whole company got
laid off.
So at that point, I was in sort of the, I just need a job mode.
And so I got a job as a firm doing insurance defense work on Petaloma, which was kind of
another thing that I had never really wanted to do.
But I lived here.
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I had a life here.
I didn't want to move.
And so I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to do this until I come across something that
sort of speaks to me better.
And I had known one of the partners here, Stephanie, has going back to my first firm
days because we had both spent a lot of time in bankruptcy court together and had gotten
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to know each other a little bit.
So when I saw this firm was hiring, I reached out to her and we chatted and that was that.
And I've been here ever since.
So that's kind of how I got here.
I think I was always looking for a place with people who I felt like I could just settle
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down with and like, okay, for me, the work is the work, but a big part of what makes
it enjoyable or the people you get to spend your day with.
If you're going to the office filled with people you don't want to be around, that's
can make for a pretty miserable experience.
You know, for me, even on the bad days, you can get through those if you're surrounded
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by people that you actually enjoy working with and you care about.
I think it just took me a while to find that place.
But once I did, it's been great ever since.
So yeah, that's a great lesson for everybody.
Find a place that you're comfortable to work at that makes you happy to work at.
I know sometimes people are just running that corporate ladder hoping for the next big stepping
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stone, but it sucks to work there, you probably should.
Yeah, you just you're never going to find what you're looking for if you're unhappy.
So Brian, what type of law do you focus on now?
Because there's been a bit of a jump around in what you started with and what you've done
along the way.
What's your primary focus these days?
Yeah, my primary focus these days is mostly trust in the states.
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So that can be everything from the estate planning part, you know, drafting trusts and
wills and things for people answering the questions counseling on their estate planning.
But the biggest component of what I do now is administration and litigation in the trust
in the state world.
You know, when you have a probate estate or a trust, there's a trustee or someone in
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charge of administering that and they often need legal advice about what they are not
allowed to do that kind of thing.
Or maybe a beneficiary of their family trust and may have some questions about, hey, I
think I have these rights.
I'm not sure what's going on.
I need a lawyer to kind of help guide me.
And then, you know, of course, unfortunately, when parents pass away, their kids often end
(24:14):
up in disputes over how to handle things.
And so, you know, I often say I help them try to figure out how to resolve those issues.
And so that's the biggest piece of what I do and then, you know, I do a fair amount of
related business work because, you know, trust on things like real estate.
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And so we'll often have issues involving real property that you need to deal with or property
taxes or that kind of thing.
And so, I guess it's not terribly surprising that trusts in the states and business sort
of end up going hand to hand, hand to hand quite a lot.
Because business owners are often the ones coming to us to draft their estate plans or
(24:56):
help deal with their disputes that they're in.
And so it's a bit of a hybrid between kind of trust in the states and business and kind
of helping people resolve disputes in those areas.
And you're enjoying this sort of change in pace to your day?
I know it's been over five years now, but it's not where you quite started.
(25:17):
Yeah, no.
I definitely do.
You know, it's a, when you're just doing the civil business litigation, you know, for
example, I mean, it's like every case you have is a court case and there's court deadlines
coming up and you have multiple trials scheduled in any given year.
And now, you know, it's a bit of a more of a blend.
(25:39):
I think, you know, for example, I think I have maybe one trial scheduled so far for
the rest of this year, maybe another one will pop up.
There's a lot less emphasis on, I would say, the court litigation process and that part
of it is there is in sort of civil cases, so to speak.
And because we're dealing with most often with family members in one way or another
(26:04):
who are fighting with each other, there's more of a personal component to it.
And there's a lot more emphasis on, okay, how can we practically solve this?
Problem for these people because litigation, you know, going to trial, so to speak is probably
not what's in anyone's best interest here.
(26:27):
You know, the people who generally win in that scenario are the lawyers, you know, and
I tell clients who are considering litigating, you know, I make more money if you do that.
But perhaps we should consider, you know, an alternative course of action that might
be better for you.
So I really appreciate the fact that as opposed to when you're just fighting over dollars
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and cents a lot of the time, we're dealing with people and there's an emphasis on how
can we avoid leaving them in a bad situation where, you know, yeah, we won, so to speak,
but now their family relationships are ruined.
They probably spent more money than they really needed to and they're probably not in the
(27:13):
best situation.
And so I really like that component of this work of melding the legal aspect and the logical
piece of it with the personal component and remembering that at the end of the day, these
are people that we're dealing with and that we're trying to help.
And sometimes, you know, there's less of an emphasis on how can we win because winning
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is often a lose-lose in these cases, you know, and so how can we just put all of these
parties in the best possible situation because they're often family members.
Helping your client can also be helping the opposing side if it means being practical
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and coming to a resolution that is reasonable because frankly, at the end of the day, if
people are coming to a lawyer, the odds are that at least one, if not more than one of
them are being unreasonable in some way or another, especially if it's, you know, in
the trust and the state context and we're fighting over inheritance, it's like, you
know, okay, there really should be a way to resolve this.
(28:19):
The odds are that someone's being unreasonable because they're still upset about something
that happened when you guys were younger, you know, because there's always, we always
kind of joke that it's not really about the money.
I mean, it is, but there's always something else in these cases that is driving it.
(28:41):
And, and it's like sometimes it's as simple as now the mom or dad are gone, these siblings
know that once they're done fighting, they may never speak to each other again.
And so they just want to keep fighting because that's all they have.
Yeah.
And so sometimes you're even just dealing with the fact that they don't want to acknowledge
the end sort of the end of their relationship.
(29:02):
And so they just keep fighting with each other because they can't figure out what else to
do.
So I like that, that part of it, the personal component of this area of the law.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
I mean, you're about people fighting and generally there's a lot of money involved.
I can sort of get it right at the same time.
I don't think those people put in all the hard work and have a plan in place.
(29:27):
And they definitely didn't elicit the attorney as a beneficiary.
You know, that's right.
It's like, hey, attorney, you can have a cut of the pie as well.
Yeah.
It's very interesting to talk about that part where this could be the last time they
talk because once this is done, I mean, that's something you don't really think about.
I got a pretty good relationship with my brother and I, you know, I think about parents'
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tasks.
I don't think we would ever talk again.
But we do live in different countries and probably would have less communication.
But, you know, you have to act on the last right from living distances.
So, yeah, I think people often...
Yeah, I think people think about the law and from a layperson's perspective, they think,
(30:18):
oh, it's objective, it's black and white, it's rules.
And then you have to remember that, yes, that's true, but we're dealing with people at the
end of the day and the nature of rules and laws are that they're broad and they're intended
to sort of apply generally.
But because they have to take into account such a broad set of possible outcomes that
(30:41):
might come up under that rule, they're really not meant to deal with individual people and
individual situations.
And so that's really the interesting part of it for me is how do we take this, what's
supposed to be this objective black and white rule and now apply it to these very real world
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people who are in usually one of the worst situations they've ever been in because no
one likes to be in a legal dispute.
It's not fun.
And so, you know, to me, that's the most interesting part is looking at this and saying, okay,
well, the law, that's all well and good.
We know what that is, but now how do we problem solve within that context and try to give
(31:26):
our client the best advice and put them in the best position we can?
And that's the most challenging part, of course, do because people aren't always reasonable
or willing to listen.
So sometimes you even have to get your own client to the right place and sort of get
them to get out of their own way.
(31:46):
So to speak sometimes, you know,
somebody's very analytical.
I love the things to be black and white over time managing people as well as having kids.
I've realized there's a lot of gray wall of and learning to operate in that gray is the
difference between success and failure and understanding, you know, that there's probably
going to be a little bit different for every person, you know, the well, but yeah, the
(32:09):
depth of that gray would be different depending on that person's risk tolerance, how open
they are to conversations, how much they're willing to listen, how much they're willing
to acknowledge that maybe they're in the wrong a little bit as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I would say, you know, the interesting thing about it that one of the things that
I learned, you know, along the way is we have this sort of again, the law and it's presumably
(32:34):
black and white, but when you're handling a legal dispute, there's there's a decision
maker out there, somewhere, right?
There's a judge or a jury that's going to decide this case based on that law and all
of the facts and the evidence that you're going to put in and how that decision maker
is going to view all of that is anyone's guess, right?
(32:55):
And I mean, with a judge, if you know the judge well enough, maybe, you know, there's
probably some more certainty there.
Juries are very difficult to predict because yeah, you have the law and the judge is going
to tell them, okay, this is the law, but they're all going to bring their own personal view
of the evidence and what they think and who they think is telling the truth and what persuaded
(33:16):
them and what didn't to that analysis.
And so again, even in the decision making context, you're dealing with people and their
opinions and their beliefs and and how that's all going to affect the outcome.
And so that's often very gray.
And that's one of the most challenging parts of advising clients because they want to know,
(33:37):
well, what's the answer?
What's going to happen if I go to trial?
And most often the answer is, well, I'm not really sure.
Here's what I think.
Here's the evidence.
Here's the arguments that we're going to make on your behalf and how that might play out.
But here's what they're going to say.
And the jury might be persuaded by that or the judge might think this.
(33:59):
And so there's a lot of back and forth and a lot of gray area because I can have my opinion
about what the law says and how it should be applied in this situation.
But that doesn't mean that that's what the decision maker is going to think, right?
Because there's another side that's taking a different position.
And so almost by definition, there's more than one reasonable way to view the situation.
(34:21):
Because if it was that clear cut and not black and white, we probably wouldn't be in a dispute.
So the fact that we're in this dispute, Lard may suggest that there is some gray area there.
And so then you factor in the decision maker, which is an unknown.
And so it becomes very complicated.
And so you take this area that people believe is very objective and very black and white
(34:46):
and you realize very quickly that actually it's very gray.
And predicting how things are going to play out is very difficult.
Yeah, it makes me feel like that there is their story, the one person story, the other
person story on the truth.
This feels like there is one attorney's story, the second attorney's story, and then there's
(35:07):
the interpretation of those stories.
And that actually is just the, I mean, in a sense, that's the nature of the legal system
we have in the US, right?
Because it's not the only option.
There's other countries that have different ways of doing it.
And in our system, it's what we call an adversarial system.
And the idea is you pick the two sides against each other and tell their stories.
(35:33):
And somewhere in the middle, the jury will decide what the real truth is.
Whether that's the most effective way of getting at the truth, you can argue that, but it's
the system that we have.
And so you're right.
And unfortunately, I think, oftentimes in law schools, lawyers are trained to be, we
talk about the zealous advocate that sort of becomes the mantra of a lot of attorneys,
(35:57):
that your job is to advocate for your client to the bitter end, right?
Make every argument you can think of.
But I think hidden in that way of thinking can be a trap because from my perspective,
the best thing you can do often for your client is to be objective, is to look at the situation
from the middle and say, okay, well, here are the arguments I can make.
(36:22):
But this is what the other side is going to say.
Sometimes we have a phrase when we're talking about litigation where we ask, is the other
side drinking their own Kool-Aid?
Or are we drinking ours, right?
Are we so wedded to our own position and our own view of things that we're not seeing the
objective truth of things?
We're missing something.
(36:42):
And I think that happens a lot because lawyers get so tied to the idea of needing to win
for their clients that you forget that there's an opportunity for what I would call a better
win if you can look at the situation objectively from the beginning and set your client on
the right path from the very start in terms of how to see the situation.
(37:04):
And so, again, I think it's one of those things where you can look at it black and white and
I can have my opinion about, well, this is how the case should turn out and this is what
should happen for this client.
Just looking at it that way is probably not what's best for the client because what the
client really needs is for me to look at what the other side is saying and say, hey, yeah,
(37:25):
that's a problem or, hey, we need to be worried about this or you need to think about this
or how about another perspective?
Have you thought about it this way?
Sometimes that's the best thing you can do for your client because they're the ones living
the dispute and it often is the worst situation someone's ever been in.
And so it's very easy to kind of lose the forest for the trees in that scenario, right?
(37:48):
And they become so entrenched in their view of the situation and so convinced that they're
right that sometimes the best thing you can do for them is help them see why that might
not be the case.
Because if you just double down on everything they're saying, then they're going to say,
oh, yeah, well, then let's go to court and let's fight.
And that may not be what's best for them in the long run.
(38:10):
Yeah, very interesting.
It sounds like there's a lot of people skills involved in this portion of law.
Do you assume you didn't learn that at law school?
Like where do you learn to sort of understand?
I mean, it seems very contrary to the American way of, you know, this fight, fight, fight.
It's just a lot more, you know, it feels very sort of like having mediation with your client.
(38:39):
You know, I think to a certain extent it's part of who I, it's part of my personality.
I have always been sort of a middle ground, let's find what's fair, be objective sort
of person.
Even when I was a kid growing up, that was sort of always my role.
I was always the peacekeeper.
You know, I'm kind of the neutral.
(39:00):
Like you said, mediator.
I mean, even in litigation, I think that sometimes is a good role to play.
Actually given that most cases are resolved these days, right?
Almost every case settles and really in the trust and estate context, they really almost
all do.
And so, you know, if you're going to be in a mediation, it's good to have already thought
(39:24):
about all the things the mediator is going to throw at you.
But you're right.
So I think to answer your question, I think part of it is just my natural inclination.
I like to help people try to find a resolution.
And so I've just always, always, always done that.
So I think I've had a lot of practice.
But I've also just always been interested in psychology.
(39:48):
And I've always had friends in that, in that world, and I've studied a fair amount of it
and kind of personal development and sort of.
So I feel like I bring just different things I've learned along the way.
I don't know that I've ever studied anything technically or specifically that it's definitely,
like you said, not something I learned in law school.
(40:08):
I think it's really mostly just something I picked up along the way.
I think a lot from working with clients, you know, I've made a lot of mistakes along the
way and learned from those and said, well, you know, maybe that wasn't the best advice
to give that client because it took us down this path or, you know, and so I think also
there's always room to, you know, learn from every situation and look back at every case
(40:32):
of handle every client I've had and say, well, you know, we got a good result or that went
particularly well, but how can we have done better?
Or, you know, hey, that case didn't go the way we thought it would.
And, you know, what can we learn from that?
And so I think a lot of, you know, after almost 16 years of doing this, I've just also learned
(40:52):
a lot about dealing with people who are in legal disputes in particular and kind of how
to maneuver that situation and how to talk to them about what they're going through.
Yeah, I'm going to throw you a curveball question on the top.
Okay.
If somebody wants to develop their skills, either mediation or the ability to, I guess,
(41:14):
influence or convince people to sort of resolve issues rather than just keep fighting, is
there any books that you've maybe read in the past that might help people along their
way?
There's a really, so there's a couple of good books in like the mediation world that
are sort of about that.
I think there's one really good one.
I think it's called, I think there's two.
(41:37):
I think it's called Getting to Yes and Once or Getting Past Now or something like that.
William Ury, you are a Y, I think is the author.
He's a very well-known mediator.
But I think the biggest thing I learned, I remember reading those books, it's about finding
common ground, I think.
(41:59):
The first thing for me is we're fighting about ABC, but over here on D, okay, here's where
we can agree.
When you're dealing with people who are emotional about the situation and their family members
and their fighting, I find where can we start finding things that we can agree on?
(42:24):
That just seems to be kind of a fundamental good way to start.
But I also think, again, it's about being reasonable.
It's about being able to empathize with the other side's position.
You may not agree and you may say, well, I still think that's unfair or wrong, but the
ability to see the other side's perspective and put yourself in their shoes and say, okay,
(42:50):
well, from over here, I see why we see it that way.
But if I was standing over there on their side, how would I see it?
And so I think the second thing I've learned is the ability to really see the other side's
perspective because as the sort of advocate or the attorney for one party, one of the
(43:11):
most helpful ways to sort of bringing my client often where they need to be is helping them
see the other side's perspective because they're so entrenched again in their view and how wrong
they feel the other side is and how unfair the situation is that if over time you can
(43:32):
get them to see that in some way or another, if they were on the other side, they would
see it that way too.
And it really brings a human component to it and they can realize that, okay, this person's
not necessarily being evil, they're not the worst person ever.
They just have a particular perspective on this situation and it's different from yours.
(43:53):
And now, okay, now that we can see each other, and then how do you take our perspective and
go to the other side and get them to see that?
And I think part of the mediation conflict resolution process is about bringing the
parties closer and closer by getting them to share more and more of each other's perspective
(44:14):
to the point that they can find somewhere they can meet in the middle because resolutions
are no one's winning, right?
I mean, I tell clients when we go to mediation, just prepare yourself for the fact that if
we settle the case today, you're going to leave a little bit unhappy.
And they always sort of look at me confused.
And I say, well, look, there's no winning, the nature of a compromise is that you're
(44:37):
going to give up something you don't want to, they're going to give up something they
don't want to.
And so if we settle a good settlement means everybody's a little bit unhappy, right?
Because we were all reasonable, we met in the middle and we found something that we
can all live with.
No one loves it, but that's the nature of a compromise.
And so the way to get people there, I think is getting them to share perspective in one
(45:00):
way or another.
I've always heard that the best negotiation has gone really well with both sides are
a little unhappy.
Yeah.
And there's books, I looked at that, it's getting passed, no negotiating in difficult situations.
There you go.
And he has another book, which is a co-author book, getting to yes, no negotiating agreement
without getting in, who is Roger Fisher and William Erie, 4.3 stars and 4.5 stars on Amazon.
(45:26):
So apparently both really good books, both over have over a thousand reviews.
So that's pretty good.
Brian, everybody has challenges along the way.
And it sort of defines their career.
Can you share with us sort of a difficulty that you've maybe experienced along your career
(45:47):
path that's led you to where you are today?
Yeah, I think one of the biggest things struggles for me with the law was kind of on the other
side of where I am now kind of talking about being able to be objective and see both sides
was in the beginning, that all felt very personal to me.
(46:11):
And I had a very, I had a difficult time in the early part of my career kind of dealing
with conflict because everything felt like an attack.
It really early on in my career, I had a lot of anxiety and just a real struggle with kind
of the litigation paradigm and the fact that I had to get to the point where I learned
(46:37):
that it wasn't all about me and I didn't need to take everything personally, right?
Like opposing counsel is telling me that I'm wrong and how could I take that position and
how unreasonable I'm being.
And when those letters would first come in, I would just get very hurt by them and think,
well, how can you say that about me?
I'm the most reasonable person I know.
(46:58):
I mean, come on.
And so, but it really was a struggle.
I mean, for the first couple of years of my career, it really took a toll on me and to
the point where it was really hard.
But I talked with a lot of people, I went to some counseling, you know, and tried to
figure out like what can I do?
(47:19):
You know, obviously, I feel like, you know, I felt like there was something about the
way I was perceiving it and my perspective on the situation that was contributing to
the problem.
And so I thought, well, okay, let me try to get a better perspective on what's going on
here.
And so I worked through that.
And yeah, but it was hard.
And I, you know, I feel like oftentimes like that is, you know, I grew as a result and
(47:45):
I was a better person on the other side of it.
I was standing how difficult it was at times.
And I really had to learn how to just take a step back and realize that, you know, I
don't always have to be right.
I don't always have the answer.
And you know, I don't always have to be perfect.
And, and it's fine for people to tell me that they disagree with me and that doesn't mean
(48:07):
I'm being unreasonable or that there's anything wrong.
And so that was a real challenge for me.
I think it's a great lesson for a lot of people, right?
It's okay for other people to have an opinion.
I think a lot of times people consider somebody else's opinion attack on our own opinion rather
than a defense of their opinion.
And when you start realizing that people just defending their own position, there's less
(48:29):
need for you to be defensive of somebody else's opinion, which generally just makes life a
lot easier.
Because if you're constantly feeling like you have to be defensive, like life is just
shit.
Yeah, 100%.
And you know, and of course I realized at some point along the way that like, well, I'm
defending my perspective.
And so, you know, I guess if it's okay for me to do it must be okay for them to do because
(48:52):
hey, I'm not always right.
I don't always know best.
And so just because, just because I'm defending my position doesn't mean they should just
go, yeah, well, of course you're right, Brian.
You know, that was sort of, I think a little bit of the mentality I had in the beginning
and I had to learn that, well, no, wait a minute, I'm not necessarily right.
I just have an opinion or a perspective, but they're allowed to have theirs too.
(49:14):
So Brian, can you share with us the best piece of advice you've received that helped you
along your career?
I actually think that that might be what it is to learn how to not take things personally.
That was something that a therapist of mine, I think at one point said to me about this
(49:36):
whole thing.
And something about putting it that way just clicked for me thinking about like it was,
I really, I remember sitting there thinking that is what I'm doing, isn't it?
And that's when I really got like, oh, yeah, wait, I'm not necessarily right.
They're allowed to have an opinion.
And it was like, oh, I shouldn't, why am I, why am I taking that so personally?
(50:01):
Because once I was able to kind of flip that switch, things just got a lot better.
Because this can be a really, certainly a really difficult profession and definitely
one that's very hard if you are sort of too much of a perfectionist and sort of can't
be open minded.
(50:22):
It can be real difficult, I think, for a lot of people.
Great.
If you were talking to new attorneys or young professionals, what advice would you give
them to sort of help them set themselves up for success?
I would say, really, like keep in mind what you don't know, that you don't know what you
(50:44):
don't know.
Because when I was a new attorney, I thought, okay, well, I've been to Losdell, I passed
the bar.
You know, I must know what I'm doing.
And then I started my first job and realized I had no clue how to actually be a lawyer.
I knew I had to read cases and statutes, you know, the sort of the practical, substantive
(51:05):
things that Losdell teaches you.
But I had no idea how to actually do the day-to-day job.
And so it took me a long time to kind of realize that I really needed to step back and not
make too many assumptions about what I thought I knew.
And as lawyers out of Losdell, you just pass the bar, you sort of think like everyone's
(51:29):
really gung-ho and they want to do a great job.
But it's okay to admit that you don't know stuff.
I thought as a lawyer, okay, well, now I have to have all the answers.
And I didn't.
I didn't have any of the answers.
And that made it hard for me to rely on sort of the older, more experienced attorneys who
(51:52):
were supposed to be mentoring me because I felt like, oh, well, I'm already supposed
to know the answer and they're going to think I'm stupid if I tell them I don't know what
to do.
And in hindsight, I realize now that no, the right thing to do was to go to them and say,
hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
Can you help me point me in the right direction?
And so, you know, when I work with new attorneys and mentor people, that's one of the things
(52:17):
I try to impart to them is ask as many questions as you can.
Ask and ask and ask and learn from the more experienced people around you because that
is actually the only way.
If you want to learn how to do this job by reading books and trying to just study and
figure out on your own, it's going to take a lot longer and it's going to mean making
(52:39):
a lot of mistakes along the way that are bad for clients that you can avoid.
And so I really try to, because I think a lot of, this isn't just for me, but my impression
from a lot of young attorneys I work with is that they're afraid to ask questions because
they're concerned that they'll be perceived as not very good at their job or not competent.
(53:00):
And it's like, well, so I try to get them to understand that, no, we don't expect you
to know anything actually, not only not everything, but anything.
So just ask a lot of questions.
It's fine.
And that's how you're going to learn.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a great advice for all people coming to provincial space.
(53:20):
Accountants, like your technical knowledge, you get you so far, the rest of it comes with
experience and you can't speed up time, but you can steal experience from other people
by being open to asking questions and really pay attention when there's more experienced
people are explaining to you a situation or some history that they have.
(53:44):
It can make such a big difference because you're effectively absorbing their knowledge
and their experience to using your own situation.
So not asking questions is a massive failure.
So I always say, ask, ask, ask, ask, ask and be open and listen.
It's easy to ask questions.
It's much harder to actually pay attention and hear what the words they're actually
(54:08):
saying.
Brian, this has been an amazing conversation, but I'd like to get to know you a little bit
more on the personal side.
So is there anything you'd like to share with the audience that would just give us a little
peek into who Brian the person is?
We've obviously heard about you as the attorney.
We've heard about you as the musician, but share something about you that will just give
us a little bit of insight into Brian, the everyday person.
(54:30):
Sure.
So the other two other things that I'm very interested in, aside from music, obviously,
are cooking and the outdoors.
So I love to cook.
I spend a lot of time cooking.
I cook dinner most nights after work when I get home.
And so I had my parents over last night for dinner.
I made us all a nice meal.
(54:50):
So that's something I'm very interested in.
And the other one is the outdoors.
I love hiking.
My brother and I mountain bike together pretty much once a week.
My husband and I and our nephew went hiking up to Sugarloaf up to the top of the mountain
on Saturday.
And so that was a lot of fun.
Those are the kind of some other things I'm interested in that I spend my time on.
(55:15):
So.
Okay.
So what's your signature dish?
Any kind of fresh pasta.
That's what I made.
I like to make pasta from scratch and I make lots of different sauces to go with them
depending on what I'm in the mood for.
But I would say that cuisine I'm probably most comfortable cooking is Italian.
It's probably what I've done the most.
(55:37):
Favorite hiking trail that you'd recommend to people?
I've actually recently just discovered up in Windsor there's this foothill regional
park if no one's familiar with it up in Windsor has a couple of beautiful little ponds and
a nice trail that you can hike up with a nice view out toward the airport.
(55:57):
It's beautiful up there.
Although I but I think my favorite is hiking up to hiking up Sugarloaf.
I love to get up to the top of mountain up there and see the Napa and Sonoma valleys
and see down to the bay.
I mean the view from up there is pretty amazing.
So I love to go up there.
This was yesterday.
This last weekend was our first time this year getting up there.
(56:18):
So that was that was great.
Well, I've just written those two down.
I like to punish my kids taking them on long long high.
So I try to figure that one out.
The one that was at the other one doesn't they can buy pretty pretty cars.
That's always great.
Nice.
But yeah, that's awesome.
(56:39):
I appreciate your time today.
But as a pretty conversations tradition, we like to end off with some rapid fire questions.
Okay.
Questions for you.
Let me know if you're ready.
Okay, go for it.
What is your dream vacation?
(57:00):
Dream vacation.
I would say places somewhere I haven't been.
Your game.
Highland.
Highland.
Nice.
Yes.
Do you prefer audio books or paper books?
Oh, I like both.
(57:22):
But I'd say my if I had to pick paper.
If you had 20 minutes to exercise, what would you use those 20 minutes to do?
20 minutes to what?
Exercise.
And hiking for sure outdoors.
What is your favorite piece of technology that you're using at the moment to make your
(57:42):
life easier?
I would say my iPad because I can store all of my music on it.
So I don't need books and books of sheet music.
I can just put it all on my iPad.
Last question.
What was your favorite meal growing up?
(58:04):
Chinese food.
And he can go going out to eat Chinese food in my family.
That was always my favorite.
Chinese Chinese or American Chinese?
American Chinese.
Sorry.
Yes, I have to be more specific.
I just always intrigued.
That was that was all I knew growing up for sure.
I've had I've had more authentic nowadays, but as a kid, it was American style Chinese
(58:25):
food all the way.
What's that favorite dish?
What's that one that you have to order every time?
I mean, sour chicken.
That's my mom.
That was my mom's of my favorite.
We always had to order that one.
And with that, we end another party of conversations.
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning and installation.
Today we've gained insight from our guests and taken another step towards understanding
(58:48):
the first atmosphere of leadership in business.
Remember each conversation is a step towards positive transformation of business to you.
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to find and career opportunities.
Don't forget to subscribe to Period Conversations on YouTube and Spotify so you never miss a
chance.
We'd also love to hear your thoughts and experiences to connect with us on social media
(59:10):
show.
It's our most active and linked in with our viewership conversation.
Join us next time for more engaging stories and fights to conversations that we're making.
Until then, keep striving for excellence and rising growth.
Thank you for listening.
Be fine and good time.
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