Episode 20 - Terrell Turner - The Golden Age of Leadership

Terrell Turner, founder of TL Turner Group, shares his journey in the accounting industry and the importance of curiosity and gaining diverse experiences.

He emphasizes the value of focusing on experiences rather than chasing titles or money. He also discusses the significance of understanding the human nature element in accounting and finance and how it can make you a valuable business partner. He shares his decision to start his own practice and the high-risk nature of entrepreneurship.

Terrell Turner, CPA shares his journey of starting his own accounting firm and the challenges he faced along the way. He discusses the importance of taking risks and having confidence in your skills. He also talks about the process of niching down and focusing on serving law firms, which led to the development of the Golden Age of Business framework. This framework helps set clear goals and expectations for team members and improves overall performance. Terrell emphasizes the importance of having hard conversations and making tough decisions as a leader.

He also shares a personal insight into his life and the lessons he learned from overcoming challenges.

takeaways

• Focus on gaining diverse experiences rather than chasing titles or money.
• Understand the human nature element in accounting and finance to become a valuable business partner.
• Stay curious and ask questions to continuously learn and understand different perspectives.
• Be prepared for high-pressure situations by gaining experience and practicing in low-risk environments.
• Entrepreneurship involves taking risks and being strategic in building a successful practice. Taking risks and having confidence in your skills can lead to success in starting your own business.
• Niching down and focusing on serving a specific industry can improve efficiency and performance.
• The Golden Age of Business framework helps set clear goals and expectations for team members.
• Leaders should not shy away from hard conversations and tough decisions.
• Personal challenges can shape your perspective and teach you compassion for others.

Sound Bites

• "Don't chase the title, don't chase the money, chase the experiences."
• "I can operate in this high risk environment."
• "I ended up starting my firm on April 1st of 2020 when everything was shutting down for the pandemic."
• "You truly are there to help them in what is one of the toughest times they will probably ever experience."

Chapters

03:44Terrell's Journey in the Accounting Industry

10:55The Value of Curiosity and Diverse Experiences

17:32Understanding the Human Nature Element in Accounting and Finance

20:19The Importance of Asking Questions and Continuous Learning

23:40Preparing for High-Pressure Situations through Low-Risk Experience

32:36Taking the Leap: Starting Your Own Accounting Practice

34:53Taking Risks and Building Confidence

37:33Starting a Business During the Pandemic

39:10Helping Clients in Tough Times

41:02The Golden Age of Business Framework

48:42Setting Clear Goals and Expectations

59:45Leadership: Having Hard Conversations

01:02:07Personal Insights: Overcoming Challenges

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Protea Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting

(00:09):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, Zane Stevens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery from unraveling the unique stories that shaped our guest's
careers to the invaluable advice that fueled their success.
We here to provide you with simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career and personal

(00:29):
growth.
Whether you're a budding professional or seasoned executive, these conversations are
designed to offer insight and perspectives that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Protea Conversations.
Today I have the great privilege to be joined by Tyrell Turner, the founder of TL Turner

(00:49):
Group, a firm that simplifies accounting and finances for law firms, making these critical
areas more useful for business decision making.
Tyrell is a New York time-featured CFO and a 4,040 CPA, recognized for his ability to
take complicated topics and make them simple and actionable.
Beyond his work with TL Turner Group, Tyrell hosts a popular, multiple popular podcast,

(01:12):
but specifically the Business Talk Library, where he shares insight and strategies from
his extensive experience in Fortune 500 companies and successful small businesses, helping others
achieve better financial results.
He's also developed a unique process for managing people called the Golden Age of Business,
which we'll sure to dive into today.
I'm excited to hear more about Tyrell's journey, his approach to simplifying finance, and the

(01:35):
innovative processes he developed to drive business success.
Tyrell, welcome to the show.
Hey, thanks for having me.
Yeah, absolutely privilege.
If anybody has ever met Tyrell in person, you'll realize that he is probably the nicest
person in the accounting industry.
He will take time to talk to anybody that comes up to him.

(01:59):
He's so patient, even though I can see a time he's running late.
And I think the nicest thing he does is he takes an opportunity to talk to me, who's
the guy that's hiding in the back corner at most conferences, which I greatly appreciate.
The other fact that everybody needs to know, you'll get to learn this while we get through
this conversation, is that Tyrell might have the nicest voice to listen to in the accounting

(02:21):
industry.
You can learn on any of his podcasts, listen to him speak, and you will be enchanted by
the smoothness and the silkiness of his voice.
Well, I appreciate the warm and amazing introduction.
You make it really easy.
I'm very thankful to be able to call you one of my accounting friends and somebody that

(02:44):
I know I can reach out to with questions anytime they pop into my head.
Absolutely.
I think that's part of the fun of being in this community is that you really can reach
out and we're all figuring out stuff together.
And one person may know something that others don't.
And I really enjoy being a part of the community and giving back to others that are within

(03:07):
the community.
Yeah, community is important and you really are one of those people out there that is
trying to make a difference, which I truly appreciate.
I mean, we're obviously all trying to stay in business and be successful as well.
But I know that you are really trying to help people.
I know you're somebody I can trust and I know a lot of other people feel the same way about
you.
So thank you for being that person.
Absolutely.

(03:27):
My pleasure.
Well, we are today to learn a little bit more about Terrell and how you sort of started
out in the accounting world and all the way through to your own firm these days and helping
many attorneys be successful, which is an interesting niche in itself.
But why don't we start with how did the decision come about to go into the accounting space?
Yeah, so for me, that started probably back in high school where I was trying to figure

(03:53):
out what I wanted to do after high school because most of the people in my family went
into the military.
I wasn't sure if I wanted to go that route and then some just went right into working
right after high school and no one had ever really went to college.
And so I was like, if I'm going to go, what would I go for?
Because I don't want to just go for the sake of going because it's an expensive, like whatever

(04:17):
kind of trip.
So I wanted to be a little bit more strategic about it.
And I started taking, I took two bookkeeping courses in high school and I realized, I was
like, man, this stuff makes sense to me.
Like it gave me a chance to combine two things I really enjoyed, which was math and business.
And I was just like, this makes so much sense.

(04:38):
And so I decided, hey, when I went to college, I was going to study accounting and when I
got into it, it was one of those things that I kind of figured it out enough to where I
didn't really have to study that hard past the classes.
Almost to the point where like I would get like a B plus on the test and like my instructor

(04:58):
would call me to their office and like, I know you didn't study on this because you
got a B plus.
I was like, I thought that was good.
And they were like, I know you didn't study.
I mean, it just became a field for me that accounting just clicked for me.
And I think where it really started to take off was when I started doing internships
and I got the chance to actually work doing an accounting job and helping the company

(05:24):
that I was working at helping them actually make decisions by using the accounting information.
And for me, that's where I knew like, hey, this is my jam.
This is, this is where I want to be.
So quick question, how does a high school kid find a bookkeeping course?
So I would say fortunate for me, like my high school was testing out this new thing that

(05:46):
they call the Academy of Finance.
And what they were doing is they were offering business courses to high school students because
we had already had like programs like the future business leaders of America.
And so somehow my high school got selected to say, hey, what if we offer a couple of

(06:06):
more electives because in the American like high school education system, I mean, you
get half a semester or a semester of economics and you get a half a semester or a semester
of American government.
But other than that, you really didn't get many other practical, you know, courses for
like, what's going to actually help you in your life after high school.

(06:29):
And so, I mean, I was just fortunate that my high school was picked to test out this
strategy in which it worked out great for me because it gave me the opportunity to really
explore a profession that I ended up loving.
That's incredible.
I mean, I'm constantly pushing for people to like, you know, had a minimum take a bookkeeping
course just to help them, you know, business partners.

(06:51):
Like, I think if an entrepreneur understands their financials just a little bit, at least
allows them to have those conversations with their advisors where if you have no sense
at all, it's just scary, right?
Like, and then it's daunting like, oh, what are they going to tell me about this information?
Because I don't know what it says.
So that you get an opportunity in high school to be able to do that.

(07:11):
I think that is that's incredible.
Yeah.
I mean, and I think it was very helpful because it went beyond just your basic economics class,
which I'm so glad I had because it gave me a different perspective when I decided to
go in the college and when I'm like debating about whether you take the extra loans.

(07:32):
Like, I remember talking to many students who are like, they were just going to take
the maximum amount of loan, even though they didn't need all the money, but they would
get a bigger refund check that they could then go spend on other stuff.
And because I had gone through accounting class, I'm like, at some point, this loan
is going to have to be paid back.
Like, no, let's let's limit the amount of the debt that I'm taking on.

(07:54):
And then I'll just get a part-time job to do the other stuff that I wanted to do.
And, you know, fortunately, by the time I graduated, I mean, I think I only graduated
with about maybe $15,000 in debt, just because I like really squeezed it down to where it
gave me so many more opportunities after graduating because I didn't have so much debt to try to

(08:18):
pay off.
And I think that's one of the lessons of things that people should learn in high school,
what's the power of compound interest and how much it can really cost you if you just
take too much money at the same time.
It seems all good and well until you have to pay it back and it costs you 10 times as
much.
Absolutely.
There's many people that I know that, like I said, I graduated in 2007.
So I mean, it's been quite a while, but there are many people I know that are still working

(08:42):
to pay down their loans and stuff.
And like, you know, for my wife and I, when I think about just our lives financially,
the decisions we've been able to make as far as pursuing the types of jobs we wanted to
pursue or just making the decision to be able to leave a company that we didn't really enjoy

(09:03):
working in anymore.
It's like, we didn't have that burden of like, hey, you have to keep this job because you
have student loans, you have this pay me at this, you have this.
It's just being able to make that smart decision for our finances.
Like when I was single and just going into college, it allowed me to make some much better

(09:23):
career decisions later on down the line.
And I think I'm just forever grateful for that accounting course opening my eyes to
how money worked before I started making those decisions and either getting credit cards
or because in the US when you go to college, as soon as you get to campus, I mean, I don't

(09:44):
know how they get your information, but like credit card applications start showing up
and it's just like, I had enough awareness about money to say, that's probably not a
good idea for me.
Yeah.
I mean, the whole point of not having that student debt, I know, last as a family, my
wife and I have been able to make decisions that I'm pretty sure wouldn't have made the
same if we had a lot of student debt as well, you know, being able to get that paid off

(10:06):
quickly.
I didn't have a ton, I worked, I worked as well through college as well as, you know,
bursaries and scholarships and all the time.
So I didn't have a ton, but not having that does make a big difference.
Though I did get caught with credit cards first, my first year out at KPMG and spent
way too much on my credit card the first month is like, what the heck is going on?
Yeah.
So I got that paid back really quickly.

(10:28):
And now I use my credit card as a debit card and pay the full balance off every month and
that, you know, other than earning points, it's nice not to have that debt sitting there
earning 25% interest or whatever the credit card company is willing to charge you at this
point in time.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I mean, and I think, see that mindset really prepared me as I went through my accounting

(10:51):
career of just, you know, started off in public accounting, working for a big four and did
audit for a few years and it really wasn't the highest of interest to me, but I appreciated
the experience that I was getting at the time of like really being deep in like doing narratives
and walkthroughs and doing physical inventories.

(11:14):
And it gave me the chance to learn a technical side of accounting that most people don't
really learn unless you embrace those types of experiences.
And so I was able to use that to then go work for, you know, my first fortune 500 company
and I was able to move up pretty quickly because not only did I kind of understand accounting,

(11:38):
it's just when we would have conversations about the manufacturing processes, like because
I had done so many physical inventories, it's like I could work with the engineers and I
can work with the production team because I knew the way that material moved through
a supply chain.
And I was one of the very few accounting people who could actually have that conversation

(11:59):
with them.
And so like the opportunity for me to move up in my career, you know, it opened up pretty
fast for me because it's like, hey, he's the only one here who understands how to do a
value stream map or he's the only one that understands what a back flush means when you're
processing inventory.
And so I would say it was painful getting the experience, but it paid out in a big way.

(12:23):
Yeah, I mean, you know, in Sulawakia, you have pretty much have to go through the audit
route, so you know, spent three years of it where I grew up as well, automotive capital.
So, you know, a lot of us would sign up for accounts because, well, overtime was great,
right?
You get the extra pay for it.
So why not do it?
But in hindsight, like that ability to actually walk with the people who are in the system,

(12:43):
they're explaining to you the flow through of that inventory, how it works, how it got
into this position and just listening to those conversations, you know, it does make a difference.
It allows you to walk into a business and be seen as an operational partner rather than
just the accountant trying to bother us for copies of proceeds.
And I think that's the way that the entire industry has really transitioned to is how

(13:07):
do you become a better business partner?
How do you understand the numbers and then use that to help us make better business decisions?
And I think they're, unfortunately, there are a ton of accountants that I've met that
kind of skip that part of their experience and now they're having to learn how to back

(13:28):
into it when they're like, you know, eight, 10 plus years into their career.
And at that point, you know, you don't really have as much grace to ask those very simple
or what some people may call like the dumb questions, like, you don't have as much grace
or leeway to be able to ask those questions without it making you look professionally

(13:50):
bad.
So I do think that getting that experience early on is what really prepared me for how
to move through my accounting career and to do, you know, finance leadership roles where
when I worked for companies like General Electric to be able to take on a finance leadership
role for a smaller business that they had purchased and to be able to do with that and

(14:14):
tell it as far as like working with the sales team, working with the operations team.
And, you know, we were going through negotiating like our union contract.
So being able to think through what can the business afford as we navigated that.
And I think ultimately, like, for that role, my defining moment was we were in the middle

(14:36):
of like, you know, negotiating our largest contract at the time.
And our biggest supplier who gave us like 70% of our raw materials had a devastating
fire where their factory burned completely down.
So we had to rethink our entire business model and we had to try to convince like customers,

(14:57):
hey, we're not going to be able to get you any new products for the next 18 months, but
you should still sign these five year contracts with us.
Well, like trying to figure all that out, I think, you know, it required me to do more
than just no accounting.
It required me to know how does accounting relate to how we're going to make business
decisions.

(15:18):
So two thoughts in here.
First one, what I take from this is that Terrell is a very curious person is interested in
more than just what's on the surface level of all situations.
So that seemed correct.
That would be correct.
And what I would take from that is being curious, like from a young age, let me go figure out
what bookkeeping is because I might want to be an accountant to digging deep into what's

(15:41):
happening at the business in terms of not just counting the imagery because we have
to count the imagery, but actually asking them about the processes.
That feels like those opportunities of being curious have set you up for success.
Yeah, I definitely agree.
I mean, I think that that curiosity has definitely set me up for success.
And it's allowed me to avoid a lot of pain as well, because I think it's when you really

(16:06):
get a good understanding of being able to look and understand the numbers and you have
that curiosity for figuring out why something works or why something doesn't work.
It tends to give you a little bit of insight on how you can avoid pitfalls that are down
the line.
And so I would say, I mean, it really, it opened up a lot of opportunities and it helped

(16:30):
me kind of go around some of the roadblocks and the detours because I kind of just follow
the numbers and the patterns and that curiosity helped fuel all of that.
You sort of alluded to this, but how would you sort of inform people to stay curious?
You know, like I think back when I was 22 years old on my first audit, like bright-eyed

(16:51):
bushy tail was easy to ask 100 questions.
I'm a lot older than that right now.
So how would you advise me to stay curious and still want to learn and understand?
Like how do we bring that value into our own lives to make sure we stay curious and continue
to learn?
Yeah, I think about it in stages because I think when you're early into something, whether

(17:14):
it's you're early in your career or maybe you made a career change, whatever, if you're
early into the learning curve, you're usually asking a lot of questions about the technical
side of how things work.
And I think as you progress in that learning curve, now what you're trying to figure out
is, well, how does all this technical information that I have access to, how does that impact

(17:38):
people in their decision making in their everyday life?
And I think that's where you start getting into human nature to where, although, you
know, when you're in your career, people expect you to come in and know the technical side,
but they don't always expect you to know like the human nature element to what you do.
And so I think, you know, when it comes down to staying curious, what I would encourage

(18:03):
people is like, it's one thing to know your technical craft, but it's a completely other
thing to get to know the people around you and how your technical knowledge impacts their
life.
And I think that if you're going into any situation and you're really trying to learn
and see the circumstance from other people's perspective, one is, it's going to make you

(18:28):
very valuable to everyone in the room and it's going to make you liked and loved by
other people in the room because no one in the room wants to feel like, you know, well,
no one understands me, no one sees it from my perspective.
Now a lot of times people may feel that way, but if you can be the person who is seeing

(18:49):
it from other people's perspective, you will become like the favorite person in the room.
It's like they will not want to make decisions without you being in the room.
And I think what that does it requires you to be curious about other people's perspective
on the circumstance, even though you may know your technical skill very well, but what you

(19:12):
don't know is how the other people in the room, how they feel and how they look at the
situation.
And that's just a great opportunity for you to continue learning because it will only
benefit you in the long run.
That's great.
So what I'm hearing is do not be scared to ask questions.
When you do ask those questions, truly listen and remember that empathy is important because

(19:35):
people want to know that you're actually hearing it from their side of the story.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, and I think one of the best questions that, you know, I learned to ask no matter
what space that I've been in and I remember being in some meetings with one of the division
CEOs within, you know, a Fortune 500 company.

(19:55):
And what I noticed is in that room, there are so many people who came in that room ready
to give information, but the CEO was the one who was asking the most questions in the room.
And it stood out to me because I'm like, there must be something unique about this because
in this room, he's the senior leader in this room, but he's the one that's asking the most

(20:16):
questions while other people are coming in there trying to give information, constantly
giving, I'm like, there must be something to asking those questions.
And one of the questions that he would ask a lot that I continually implement myself
is when I'm in a meeting or I'm talking to other people is I ask, you know, how will

(20:37):
this situation or this decision, how will it have an impact on you and what you do?
Because I think what that does is it makes me curious to learn what motivates other people.
It helps me learn what their concerns are.
And it also helps me see the situation from their perspective.
And I think asking those types of questions is really what allows you to step up to be

(21:02):
an exceptional leader.
Yeah, that's a great point.
I mean, I think what also gives you the opportunity is to really understand if they will really
hear if they understand what you're saying, right?
Because if they give you a response that is like totally left field to what you're saying,
it's a chance to like, re-circle around this, actually discuss what the solution is.

(21:23):
And now I'll explain to me, how do you think that's going to affect that portion?
Because a lot of the time, I think we'll get lost in our own conversation.
We're not really paying attention.
We just heard one little slice of information in the conversation.
It feels like that's going to have this massive negative effect on us.
And forget about the other 99% of the conversation that's actually going to have a positive effect
on us.

(21:43):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
One of the things that really taught me that very well was I took a job assignment to move
down to South America.
So I lived in Brazil for a year.
And one of the things that I would catch myself was after living there for some time, I started
understanding some words in Portuguese.

(22:04):
And what I realized is I wouldn't really listen to an entire sentence that someone was saying
because I was picking out keywords in their sentence that I understood and then filling
in the rest with what made contextual sentences.
It was almost like how an AI works.
You give it a few keywords and then it fills in the blank.

(22:28):
And for the most part, it worked well until you got into some very important conversations
where I'm like, no, I actually need to pay attention to every word that's being said
because the meaning was completely different from what I was trying to figure out because
I just had such limited exposure in certain situations that I couldn't rely on my assumptions.

(22:52):
I had to actually make sure that I was listening and verify, here's what I think I'm hearing.
And it made a huge difference in my ability to connect with people when I started doing
it.
This is why you're such a great speaker and such a great leader.
Well, thank you.
Well, the other part of it, other than being curious, was you've gone through your career
pretty high level up until general electric and there's a lot of great opportunities

(23:17):
that you've brought up in that situation.
And some people say that great opportunities just fall in your lap.
I've never really believed that to be true.
A lot of it comes from hard work and putting up your hand in difficult situations.
But how did all these good opportunities fall to you?
What do you think you did differently to those around you?
Yeah, early on when I was really working in the very early stages of my career, one of

(23:43):
the pieces of advice that I heard from a mentor at the time is he said to me, he said, all
right, and he was talking to me in a room full of other other finance professionals who were
in a leadership program.
And he said, it would be very tempting for you to chase money and chase the positions

(24:03):
and titles.
But he was like, my advice to you would be is to chase the experiences.
And once you get a good breath of experience, it's like, I can guarantee you the money will
come.
And so for me, it was just having that perspective of instead of trying to chase a title or chase

(24:25):
a dollar amount is to really focus on going after what types of experience.
If I looked at if I took an inventory of my skill set and I said, OK, what types of gaps
do I have in my skill sets?
And then how do I fill those gaps?
And so one of the things that I took the focus of is, whatever I was doing, my goal was to

(24:49):
work hard and be the best at it.
And then it's to find people who were a little further down the road than me.
And then I could have a conversation and say, hey, here's a skill set that I'm trying to
develop.
I'm trying to get better at communicating financial information to non-finance professionals.
And a lot of times, the people that I was having those conversations with would then

(25:13):
recommend like, hey, this job is open or, hey, here's an opportunity.
They may, if they knew the hiring manager, they may reach out and they may put in a good
word for me.
And I think by showing that I was one willing to aim to be the best at the job that I was
currently doing and showing an interest that, hey, I wanted to be strategic about what I

(25:36):
do next, I saw more people coming to my aid to help me land those next positions because
they saw those two things.
And I think it's just that aspect of being strategic and making sure that you do an amazing
job in what you are doing now.
And other people saw that and were happy to help me kind of make that next step.

(26:00):
I absolutely love that.
That is amazing.
Don't chase the title.
Don't chase the money.
Chase the experiences.
I think all of us need to write that down on a big piece of paper, stick it up on our
walls and start living that as well.
There is so much focus in the world that we live in right now to sort of chase the title,
chase the money.
And titles of money are important that they do open doors for you.

(26:21):
Does make life a lot easier.
But it does show that if you're really focused in on the growth mindset and getting better
at what you're doing and truly have a bigger goal of like, this is where I want my career
to go and then focus on how to get there rather than what that end product is, doors just
open up for you.
Yeah.

(26:41):
Absolutely.
I mean, and I think it's one of those things that I tend to look at it from a perspective
of like my upbringing because my father was in the military, grandfather, uncles, one
of my older brothers in the military, and one of the things that you learn about being
around that environment is in the military, you train constantly for all of these different

(27:05):
scenarios because when you find yourself in that circumstance, you don't want to be learning
for the first time.
Like, I mean, my father was a medic in the army.
And one of the things that I learned from him was like, you don't want to be learning
emergency medical treatment in the field.

(27:26):
You want to practice it and learn it in the practice field and as less of a threatening
environment as possible because when you find yourself in a war zone and your job is to
bandage people and keep them alive until you can get them back, like, you don't want to
be learning for the first time.
And it's one of those mentalities that I kept in.

(27:47):
It's like when the risks are low, that is the perfect time to go after the experiences
and to learn as much as you can because when you get put in a high risk situation, which
is one of those things that happened for me is like at one company I was at, I worked
in investor relations and it was a $14 billion company at the time and I was a young professional

(28:10):
working in investor relations.
And we had to explain some things to the Wall Street analysts and we're trying to figure
out what was the clearest way to explain it.
And we're trying to explain warranty accounting.
And I was looking at it and it's like most people have never really, you know, delved
deep into warranty accounting.

(28:31):
But I looked at it and I'm like, I understand this.
I've done this before.
And so like I was asked to write out pretty much the script that the CEO of the company
was going to read on the earnings call and I'm like, yeah, you would explain it this
way.
Here's how it works.
And then we talked to the chief accountant and the chief accounting officer was like,
yeah, Tyrell's explanation makes perfect sense.

(28:53):
Like this should be the way we talk about it.
And it just opened the door to where now the entire senior executive team knew that's
the young professional who added a ton of value in a situation where no one else was
really ready to step up and do that.
So for me, I credit it to, you know, focusing on getting those experiences early on when

(29:16):
the time came, I was ready to deliver.
I think, yeah, well, I mean, warranty accounting is confusing enough to explain to another
accountant.
I can't imagine trying to explain it to analysts that really don't care.
Absolutely.
I mean, because I feel like in that situation, it's like it's this very high pressure situation
at that point because it's not a, hey, we're just having a friendly conversation with people

(29:39):
who already understand it.
It's like you're talking to people who may or may not understand it, who may or may not
care and depending on what happened to your stock price, they might not be happy with
you in that moment.
So it's like you are under high pressure talking about a topic that they don't really have
interest in, but you do need to explain it because it is part of the explanation as to

(30:01):
why the company missed their earnings number this quarter.
And so being able to, you know, think and operate under pressure, I think it only comes
when you've had experience doing it because if that's your first time doing it, you're
probably going to give the type of answer that people are going to be like, you're wasting

(30:22):
my time with that answer.
But you do want to be able to provide an answer where people feel like, okay, I am still highly
upset with you, but at least that was a valuable conference.
That was a valuable exchange.
You know, giving bad news always helpful and you can explain the bad news in a smart, concise
way, which sort of makes sense at least.

(30:44):
So that always does help.
You talk about low risk environments in 2020, 2012, you decided to take a jump from low
risk to high risk and start your own practice.
Tell us about that decision.
Yeah, so, you know, I knew that it would be high risk of starting my own practice.

(31:07):
And so back in 2012, one of the things that I realized that I wasn't quite ready to just
jump in all full speed.
So I was like, I'll do some consulting using some of my experience outside of this.
And so one of the first consulting jobs that I got was a friend of mine, his father was
trying to, his father was trying to help a hair care product line come into the US and

(31:32):
they needed a financial model.
And at the time, they really didn't have, you know, they didn't have any like historical
financials and stuff.
And so literally at a 30 minute conversation, some notes I wrote on the back of a napkin
and it was like, turn this into a five year, you know, financial model with a P and L balance

(31:55):
sheet and cash flow statement.
And I remember working like on evenings after I got off my day job of just cranking, like
trying to figure this out with some of these assumptions, asking questions and building
the model.
And I eventually was able to figure it all out, build out the P and L balance sheet and
the cash flow statement for the next five years with some interchangeable kind of factors.

(32:20):
And then when I called and I presented it to them, they were just like, wow, this makes
so much sense.
And then within like two days, well, no, it was within two weeks after I had put the
financial model together and the package together, they got a call from L'Oreal in New York,
which is like one of the major beauty brands and was like, Hey, we need a presentation

(32:43):
on this in New York City in the next four days.
And so I got on another call, you know, and I was like, okay, let me walk you through
how the numbers work and explain it.
And I was able to explain it to the COO and get him ready for those meetings.
And one of the things L'Oreal said is when we said, you know, we get a lot of pitches

(33:05):
about, you know, beauty brands, but when we saw the level of detail in the financial projections,
that's what really made us want to invite you in.
And I was just like, wow, you know what, there's something to this skill that I have.
And so I just continued to say, all right, you know, let me continue to do this on a

(33:26):
consulting basis because I wasn't ready to fully, you know, leave my professional career
and jump all the way in.
But it did start to give me that confidence that I needed that where, you know what, I
can operate in this high risk environment.
That's an incredible story.
I wish my first client was the ex-luxas or I was able to come in and get them a picture

(33:46):
of this massive company that they're like, gosh, this guy's amazing.
That's just, that's an absolutely incredible story.
Where did it go from then?
Like you've got this one great client on your belt.
How did you sort of continue to grow the business from?
Well, so I kept it a little quiet in the business front because then that's where I got asked
to move down to South America and do a role there.

(34:07):
So when I did that, I was like, okay, I wouldn't be able to keep the business, you know, going
while I was in South America really wanted to just maximize that experience.
But then when I eventually came back from South America and I continued to do it kind
of partially and then I realized like the one experience that I really needed was how

(34:28):
to raise capital.
And so I said, all right, I'll put the business kind of on hold for a little bit and actually
look for a job that would put me in a position of raising capital.
So I took a position with a startup that was a tech startup that was in the process of
trying to go through scaling and growth.

(34:49):
And so I worked there for about a year and a half and we went through multiple rounds
of we raised over a hundred million in private equity funding.
We had bought two other, acquired two other companies and then I started building out
a finance team and it was at that point that, you know, getting towards the end of 2019

(35:11):
that I was like, okay, I feel like I have picked up enough of the experiences from all
of my career to now say I'm ready to leave working for someone else and really step into
this full time.
And so 2019 I made that decision to do it.
And then I ended up staying on a couple of months with that company just to make sure

(35:32):
we finalized and wrapped up the last, you know, chunk of fundraising that we were doing
when they were successful and had all the money in the bank.
I'm like, hey, I've reached my moment and it just so happened that moment was April 1st
of 2020.
So I ended up starting my firm on April 1st of 2020 when everything was shutting down

(35:54):
for the pandemic.
It's just like, all right, it's a great time to start.
This really tests how good knowledge I've developed over all these years.
Absolutely.
I mean, it was definitely, it was definitely a, I look back on it and I say it was a great
experience because it gave me time to really, really focus on the aspects of business that

(36:17):
I didn't have exposure to.
And that was the marketing and the branding and sales because, I mean, in early 2020,
you had to be really good at marketing to get anybody to spend any money with you.
You had to be good at sales.
And that's where I learned how to market is in an environment where everybody was staying

(36:39):
at home.
There were so many different things that were pulling people's attention, different things
people were worried about and focused on.
And it's just like, how do you show up and talk about accounting and finance in a way
that's going to catch people's attention and give them the comfort to want to pay you at
a time where cash is already tight.

(37:02):
And so that's where I learned marketing and sales for an accounting firm and learning
it in such a harsh environment.
I mean, it really taught me to dig deep and be very curious about how this worked and
how I could actually use it and do it effectively.
I mean, this is back to those opportunities, right?

(37:23):
You keep creating great opportunities for yourself, even though this one was a little
outside of your control, but the timing couldn't have been worse, but also couldn't have been
better in terms of proving yourself and also showing those people that you're helping,
that you truly are there to help them.
And what is one of the toughest times they will probably ever experience.
Absolutely.

(37:44):
And it's helped me understand, you know, kind of that journey that I was telling, we were
talking about earlier, where, you know, it wasn't so much about how do I impress them
with my technical knowledge of accounting.
It was at this point, it was now, you have to learn the human impact or the human implications
that your knowledge now has.

(38:05):
Now, how do you use your knowledge of accounting to help people work through what they're feeling
right now?
Some people were just distraught because they thought, hey, there's no way in the world
my business is going to make it, or do will I have enough money, or hey, where do I find
money so that we can survive this?

(38:25):
And by understanding those emotions, I'm like, I knew how to now take my technical skillset
and to present it in a way that could solve those pain points for them.
And when I learned how to, you know, combine my technical skill with a strategy to help
people overcome their greatest fears or some of their toughest pain points, when I figured

(38:50):
out how to do that, that's when like the light bulb went off for me.
I was like, this is what marketing is.
It's understanding their pain, taking what you have and helping them understand how your
solution can help address their pain.
And that's where like this whole journey of figuring out the whole process of marketing,

(39:10):
what it really means and how do you do it as an accounting firm.
And I would say to me, it was a very amazing experience because it seemed overwhelming
at the time.
Like so many businesses were failing and closing, but for me, it just became this opportunity,
like I said, for me to prove to myself that one is I could do this, to have the confidence

(39:34):
and it really came by not focusing so much on what I wanted, but focusing on how can
I understand the pain people are feeling and then how can I help them get over.
And that moment though, April 1st, 2020, were you feeling some regret that that decision
had been made?
I will say, I mean, there were mixed emotions because I had just come from working like,

(39:58):
you know, 70 to 90 hour work weeks to where I was just burnt out from doing that cycle
of, like I said, raising capital and going through M&A transactions.
I was so burnt out from it that I was relieved to be away from that, but also at the same

(40:18):
time thinking like, all right, I just walked away from a salary to a business that can't
even afford to pay me, I'm really going to figure this out.
And so I would say there was these mixed emotions, like on days that I could actually, you know,
go to sleep without a high level of stress, I'm like, I'm glad I made that decision.

(40:42):
But then, you know, two weeks later, when it would have normally had been payday, it's
like, why did I make that decision?
So you're constantly bouncing between those two things until the business started getting
some traction.
Yeah.
And if anybody hasn't been through a fundraising or an M&A transaction, it is brutal and exhausting

(41:06):
because you're answering the same question a hundred times a day because there's different
people on those other teams that all want to hear the same answer.
So it is never ending and it is exhausting.
And I can, you know, every time I finish the deal, I feel like I want to sleep for two
weeks so I can see how that sort of helped out to really smooth it over in the beginning
of COVID.
And it's one of those things about, you know, when you get into investing at a certain level,

(41:33):
like, I feel like anytime someone's writing you a check for more than, more than $2 million,
you start seeing a lot of the emotion behind it coming in because the person who's writing
the check, especially if it's not a, you know, a wealthy individual who's writing money from

(41:54):
their own bank account, but let's say if it's a fund manager, that fund manager knows, like,
if this doesn't work out, they might be fired.
And so their emotions are part of the process to where they're just like, this deal better
work out and, you know, you start getting to some of the, you know, I'd say nitpicky

(42:16):
details about, well, how they feel about this.
And it's just like, that has nothing to do with the mechanics of the business.
But, you know, having to navigate that just makes that whole A and fundraising process
even more complicated.
And I feel like at times I was like, man, I should have gotten like a minor in psychology

(42:38):
before I went into business because there's so much emotional stuff that comes up that
can derail a deal because there were some deals that didn't go through and it had nothing
to do with the business.
It had nothing to do with the business model.
It was all a very emotional response.
And you got to be able to pick yourself up and say, all right, let's go give this presentation

(43:03):
again.
Even though we gave a flawless presentation, let's just go do it again.
Yeah, it's a tough space.
And, you know, when I talk to people like in M&A, like they're always saying, like
the deal will get done when both sides feel uncomfortable.
Then you know, you've sort of reached the point of negotiation where everybody should
be comfortable because if one side's happy, then there's a problem.

(43:26):
Somebody's getting the wrong end.
At what point did you make the decision to fully niche into law firms?
So that took about maybe a year and a half to two years of running the firm because when
I first started, it was really whoever would pay us, that's who we would take on as a client.
And I think eventually you learn that it's probably not the best strategy to use when

(43:50):
you're trying to build anything that is scalable and sustainable.
And I recognize the toll that it had on, you know, the few people I had on the team at
the time by like trying to change industries where, you know, there were some mistakes
that were getting through in our accounting and bookkeeping process.
So I was like, okay, all right, yeah, we cannot build a sustainable, you know, accounting

(44:15):
firm if we have these type of mistakes and we just didn't have enough people to really
cover all the industries that we were touching.
So I started really looking at, okay, what could be a better way for us to approach this?
And I had heard for a while from a marketing perspective is, you know, if you're very clear

(44:35):
about who your audience is, it makes your marketing a lot easier.
I was like, well, what if we actually tried that, you know, from our client services.
And once we really started narrowing in our focus, I saw a lot of improvement for my staff
because they were seeing some of the same things over and over to where they were able

(44:56):
to catch things before, you know, I had to review them because they just had that reputation.
And once we had solidified enough of a reputation or a repetition for the team to get comfortable,
then I was like, all right, we're ready to go big and really market and brand like, here's

(45:18):
what we do.
We do bookkeeping and CFO services for law firms.
Now we still have some non law firm clients, but that was what we went very big with because
it was the right decision as a team and as a business to really focus.
Yeah.
We sort of followed the same journey in the beginning as well.
We sort of helped whoever came to our door and especially my business partners that had

(45:40):
a friend would help them, whatever, no problem.
But the same thing realized, you know, from a process standpoint, it became really difficult
to have one person that has six different industries on their six clients and they weren't doing
any of them very, very well.
I guess it's like that is that if you're trying to please everybody, you probably won't please
anybody type approach because you don't have the depth of knowledge you can't add the insight

(46:02):
which I think more and more it's becoming important as accountants.
We can't just do compliance.
We have to provide some sort of insight to show our value, right?
So sort of follow the same process.
And I love that you speak about how it made it like easier for your team, which I think
is a great segue into this great method that you're using to manage your team being the

(46:26):
golden age of business.
Do you like to take a couple of minutes to just elaborate on what that is?
Yeah.
So I would say probably about two years ago, I was doing performance reviews with a couple
of staff members that we had.
And we had this awkward moment where I let them rate themselves and then I read what

(46:46):
they rated themselves and then I rate them.
And what I realized is, you know, the staff, two staff members that I had on the accounting
team, they rated themselves as all five, but one out of five.
And I was like, that's not quite how I see it.
And I realized in that moment, this wasn't their fault.
This was my fault because clearly I didn't make it clear to them what, you know, excellent

(47:11):
expectations were.
And so they rated themselves a five out of five because they felt like, hey, they were
working really hard.
And as I had a conversation with them to understand why they felt like they were a five out of
five and they explained, and what I realized a lot of what they were saying was had to
do with, they were just, they were working really hard.

(47:34):
They were like, they worked on this, they worked on this.
And then I realized like, that doesn't really, that really isn't that important or a priority
when it comes to the job that you do for the team.
And I realized like, I didn't do a good job of connecting the dots for them.
And so I started this research on like, how do you, you know, set goals that are relevant

(47:56):
for the team, but also give them some room for growth and opportunity.
And so as I was thinking through it, several months of thinking about this and, you know,
trying different approaches as I would map it out and eventually mapped out like, okay,
if you're putting in average effort, here's what you, here's what that performance will
look like.

(48:17):
You're putting in good effort, here's what that performance will look like.
You're putting in excellent effort, here's what that performance will look like.
And then I was talking to a friend about it and just kind of explaining it to him and
a friend came back and said, oh, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, your age goal,
it's like age goal.
What are you talking about?
They were like average, good, excellent.

(48:39):
I was like, oh, AGE.
I was like, oh, that makes sense.
And, you know, we kind of thought about a name for the process because a couple of other
accounting firms that I talked to, they were like, man, that's really good.
Like, do you have a framework that like you can help us with on this?
And I was like, well, no, I mean, it was actually something I was just doing internally.

(49:00):
And so I realized there was this big need for developing this framework.
And so we came back and we called it the golden age of business.
Well, actually, we called it the golden age of talent management.
But since I would say in the past six months, we've actually taken a step back and looked
at everything that we do in our business.

(49:20):
And we realized this golden age framework was actually showing up in every area that
we were, how we were operating our business.
And so we took a step back and since the last six months, we created what we call this framework
called the golden age of business.
And it is really of helping you really look at a part of your business and defining what

(49:44):
does average look like, what does good look like, what does excellent look like.
Because what we found is by being able to paint that very clear picture, your staff
or even myself, when I created those goals for myself, it's like, it gave me so much
more clarity that figuring out how to prioritize my time and what I invested my energy in became

(50:08):
so much easier because it's like, it was almost like I had a roadmap of how to go from, you
know, average performance up to excellent.
And when we started working with our team on it, what we noticed is that our team had
way more clarity and our team was able to spend less time doing the things that didn't

(50:29):
really matter.
And they spent more time doing the things that really added value to the rest of the
team and added value to the clients.
Plus now that they had that roadmap of what average good and excellent look like, they
actually started getting more creative on how they could become more efficient and more
effective with their job.

(50:51):
Because before, in order for them to get more efficient and effective, they were waiting
on me to give them feedback because they didn't know what a better performance looked like.
But the golden ages gave us that chance to really create that clear picture.
And then what we did is we took the time to say, okay, all right, all of the goals, their

(51:12):
average, their good, their excellent goals are all aligned to the company's overall goals.
So no matter where they're working, it's always helping the overall company and their individual
performance get better.
And when we realized that it worked so well and I did some more research and I realized

(51:33):
there was a whole lot of neuroscience and that went into this and cognitive behavior,
like going back to all of that psychology that I wish I studied.
Like I actually did start studying and I realized the golden age method has all of that built
into it.
So it really helped our performance improve in a dramatic way.
Yeah, it's really good.

(51:53):
I attended a presentation that Terrell gave explaining the golden age of business, that's
scaling new heights.
And it was extremely insightful.
What I like the most about it is I think we always get stuck with goals between success
and failure.
And this is why new year's resolutions don't work, right?
Because failure happens so quickly.
But having the structure of average good and excellent means that even if you're just reaching

(52:17):
a certain point, there is some success that you've achieved.
And there's no point where it's just like, oh, it's one of those, right?
Like, no, there's some scales within this.
And it gives you an opportunity to keep pushing for that excellent, which keeps driving before,
which I think it's a really good way.
You know, I've taken a lot of lessons from it.
I've looked at the notes again.
I've made some adjustments internally and I will be making even further adjustments for

(52:40):
my team if when they're listening, for our goal setting for next year, taking into account
some of the ideas that Terrell has shared in the Golden Age of Business.
So great, great system.
And I think everybody should take some time.
If you're an accountant, wherever Terrell's speaking, go listen to him.
It's totally worth it.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
I mean, it's something that my wife and I, when we really looked at what we were doing

(53:04):
internally, we realized like how valuable it was for our team to where we even started
a new podcast called the Golden Age of Business where we walk through, you know, each month
we're walking through how the Golden Age of Business applies to a different area of business.
Like last weekend, we were recording the episode on how you can use the Golden Age framework

(53:27):
to apply to your marketing.
And then we'll talk about how do you use it, how it applies to sales, how it applies to
setting team goals and how it applies to finance.
Because when we were going through it in how the Golden Age framework applies to finance,
what it actually did is in that process, we actually developed a new service line of business

(53:50):
that we could now sell to our clients.
Because by just going through that process, we realized like, hey, here's a new framework
that we can now actually sell to more businesses and to help more businesses.
And it came by just going through that framework internally to where it's like another light
bulb moment came to where it's like, now we have a new way to add value to our clients

(54:15):
plus to bring more revenue into the firm.
Incredible.
So Terrell, you run a business, you've got multiple podcasts happening, your speaker
extraordinaire.
Can you give us a little bit of insight into what does a normal day look like for Terrell?
So I would say for me, a normal day definitely starts off with really figuring out what's

(54:39):
the overall vision and really focusing on like, am I making that picture clear for myself?
And then am I making it clear for the team?
Because what I realized is my days of being deep in the details on every client that those
days are gone to where we have an amazing team.

(55:00):
Now we have a team of eight members on our team.
So we have an amazing team.
And my job is really, how do I paint the picture of the journey that we're on?
And then also understand what roadblocks may be stopping anyone on the team from being
able to be as successful as possible.

(55:21):
And then how do I work with them to move those roadblocks out of the way?
And so I would say, for example, like today, one of my goals or how my day looked is, you
know, woke up, I'm working on the golden age framework in different parts of the business
where I'm writing out ideas and kind of writing out that framework to better help introduce

(55:44):
it to more of our staff as I'm going through some of our internal processes and how do
I make them more efficient?
And then there's there's some calls with clients where I do still take calls with clients where
we're digging in and I'm spending that time to really understand what's the real pain
point for the client.
And then I go back to my finance director and the accounting manager and say, okay, how

(56:09):
do we tweak what we are doing?
Because this is the pain that the client is feeling.
How do we deliver our services in a way that helps them address that pain point?
And then there may be some sales calls that I'm on with potential new clients because
I've gotten really good at understanding the pain that a client or a potential client

(56:30):
is feeling.
And then it's, okay, how do we deliver or can we deliver value in a way that will help
them?
If not, they're not the right client for us.
So it's like really spending a lot of my time on sales, marketing and the overall vision
of the firm and talent development of our staff.
What I got from that is that you are a great leader that's really leading your business

(56:53):
forward, looking off to your people, which is really critical to our success as service
providers.
But if you had to sum it down, the people that are listening who want to be better leaders,
what advice would you give them?
Yeah, I would say the first thing is, if you want to be a better leader, then you really
have to lean into making the hard decisions and having the hard conversations.

(57:17):
Because I think we are living in a time period where people want to avoid the hard conversations.
They want to avoid the hard decisions.
And I think leaders are the people who step up and lean into that.
For example, when it comes down to having hard conversations, if you're looking at something
and you see that someone is not meeting their deadlines or they're not meeting expectations,

(57:42):
don't just let it go, it's like actually hop on a call and have a conversation with them.
Understand what is going on and just being honest because there have been some times
I've had to have calls with team members and say, hey, here's what I expect of you because
I know you're capable of doing it.
So let's understand what's stopping you from being able to deliver to these expectations

(58:05):
and not shying away from those conversations.
But real leaders will step in because, as I said, part of my goal is, is it that I didn't
paint the picture clear for you?
Or is this a, hey, we need to work on some performance or maybe you lack the resources
or maybe you lack the clarity to be able to get there.

(58:26):
And leaders will step in and have those tough conversations.
And another example of a tough conversation may be if you see that there is a client that
the team is working on that it is really disruptive to have that client, whether that client's
processes are just not aligned with how you run the firm.

(58:47):
Then maybe you need to have a tough conversation with a client and say, hey, we're not the
right firm for you.
And yes, it may hurt financially, but that's what leaders do.
Leaders step up and say, all right, what is stopping us, whether it's internally or externally,
we're moving closer to the goals that we are headed to.
And then if there's a tough conversation that needs to happen, a leader will step up and

(59:10):
have it.
That's great advice.
Tarella, can you share something with us from a personal side that would give us a bit
of insight into who you are as a person outside of the accounting world?
Yeah, absolutely.
I would say growing up, I used to look at it as an unfortunate thing, but for me, it's
more of, I look at it now as a fortunate thing.
I spent a ton of time in the hospitals, some of it for just being a wild and vicious little

(59:39):
boy just doing different stuff.
And some of it was, I was born where one of my ear canal is smaller than the other, so
where it's like my hearing is extremely impaired in one ear over the other.
And I remember going for years seeing different specialists about it of how to fix it and

(01:00:02):
how to address it.
And there's so much that I learned about that situation.
And in some respects, you can look at it and say, but there are other children who don't
have this issue, they don't have to spend so much time at the doctor's office.
They can hear more clearly than I can.
They don't have this, the setback that I had the work through or even as a child, wearing

(01:00:27):
a hearing aid in the late 80s, early 90s, wasn't as popular of a thing.
And back then, they were not the micro size hearing aids that they are today.
It was very obvious that you were different from all the other kids.
And so I think living through that experience really taught me how to have compassion for

(01:00:52):
other people and just the different things that they're going through.
Because even now, most people when they look at me, you can never tell that that was going
on or that that was a situation.
But I think for me, it just taught me to have way more compassion for people and really
understanding where people are coming from.

(01:01:13):
What is the experience?
What is the journey that they've been on that brought them to this moment?
And just really looking at it as an honor and a joy to be able to say that, hey, at
some point, I am going to be a part of their journey.
I need to make sure that the part I play in their journey that it isn't one that discourages

(01:01:34):
them, it isn't one that they look back on and say, I wish I would have never met that
Terrell.
And so I tend to take that perspective and it's something that really shapes how I look
at all the things that I do.
Well, that explains why you're such an amazing person.
You know, difficult.
You took the positive out of a difficult situation and every interaction I've ever had with

(01:01:57):
you, you always come with it with kindness and compassion and empathy.
And that's what makes you so special, Terrell.
Well, I really appreciate that.
And thank you for reaching out.
I think, like I said, when we met, because I find it to be so amazing of meeting so many
people via social media or through email.

(01:02:21):
But when we get to see each other at the conferences, being able to hang out and talk about different
things and learn about what's going on with you, what you're excited about.
So thank you for your friendship and for being willing to hang out when we're at these conferences.
Thank you, Terrell.
On protocol sessions, we like to end with some rapid fire to sort of get a look into

(01:02:44):
your brain.
I got five questions for you.
Are you ready for it?
All right, let's go.
What would your death row meal?
I would say Parmesan chicken.
Yeah, Parmesan chicken would have to be it.
Like, I'm a huge fan of it.
Sometimes it gives me heartburn, but hey, at that point, it doesn't matter.

(01:03:05):
Does it?
Do you prefer mountains or the ocean?
I would say mountains.
I love the challenge.
You guys, to check out Terrell likes to carry heavy weights up the side of mountains.
What quality do you appreciate most in a good friend?
I would say honesty.
Honesty is one that I really appreciate most.
Can you share with us a favorite book that you recommend everybody reads?

(01:03:27):
A favorite book.
I would say How to Be a Capitalist with No Capital by Nathan Latka.
That is a book I probably read once a year because I think he does a really, really good
job in that book of really helping you really understand the essence of being an entrepreneur

(01:03:48):
and being innovative about solving problems and how you can approach that in any type of
business or career endeavor.
Sounds like a good read.
I'm going to have to add that to my audible wish list.
The last question.
If you're stuck on a deserted island, what three items would you bring along?
Alright, so if I'm stuck on a deserted island, I would say a really good book.

(01:04:10):
I would say a...
I would say...
And with that, we end another protea conversation.
Thank you for joining us in the journey of learning and inspiration.
Today we've gained insights from our guests and taken another step towards understanding
the diverse tapestry of leadership in business and accounting.
Remember each conversation is a step towards positive transformation of business leaders.

(01:04:32):
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to apply in your own career and
life.
Don't forget to subscribe to protea conversations on YouTube and Spotify so you never miss an
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Join us next time for more engaging stories, advice and conversations that matter.

(01:04:54):
Until then, keep striving for excellence and embracing growth.
Thank you for listening, be kind and goodbye from protea conversations.