Episode 26 - John Fenton - Building Resilience in Business and Sports

In this conversation, Zane Stevens interviews John Fenton, a seasoned leader in the accounting and coaching sectors. John shares his journey from a 30-year career in accounting to becoming a leadership coach, emphasizing the importance of vision, resilience, and relationship-building in both sports and business.

He reflects on his experiences in Division 1 football, the lessons learned about teamwork and leadership, and how these principles apply to navigating change in the corporate world. John also discusses the significance of staying true to one's values and the necessity of developing resilience in the face of challenges.

In this conversation, Zane Stevens and John Fenton explore the importance of identifying core values, the transition from a CPA firm partner to a coaching role, and the necessity of coaching in the accounting industry. They discuss coaching philosophies, the significance of gratitude in leadership, and provide advice for new leaders. John shares personal reflections on his purpose and the impact of vulnerability in leadership.

Takeaways

- John Fenton emphasizes the importance of having a clear vision in leadership.

- Building relationships is crucial in the accounting profession.

- Resilience and flexibility are essential skills in navigating change.

- Lessons from sports can be applied to business leadership.

- Sticking to one's values is key in decision-making.

- Teamwork and trust are foundational to success in any field.

- The path to leadership requires dedication and hard work.

- Understanding the dynamics of emotions can impact performance.

- It's important to focus on the next best action in challenging situations.

- The grass is not always greener; sometimes perseverance pays off. Many people lack clarity on their core values.

- Reflection is key to identifying personal values.

- Aligning values with work leads to greater happiness.

- Coaching is essential for growth in the accounting industry.

- Building relationships is crucial for effective leadership.

- Gratitude can significantly improve team dynamics.

- New leaders should focus on listening and understanding their team.

- Vulnerability in leadership fosters connection and growth.

- Goal setting should be focused and intentional.

- Continuous self-improvement is a hallmark of effective leadership.

Sound Bites

"You have to rely on other people."

"Vision is very clear."

"Focus on the next best action."

"Peopling is hard."

"Think differently, achieve more."

"What is my purpose?"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to John Fenton and His Journey

01:40 Early Career in Accounting and Transition to Leadership

05:13 Lessons from Division One Football

11:03 The Importance of Leadership and Vision

15:21 Navigating Change and Resiliency in Business

24:26 Developing Resiliency and Staying True to Values

27:52 Identifying Core Values 34:06 Transitioning to Coaching

39:45 The Need for Coaching in Accounting

43:15 Coaching Philosophy and Style

51:36 Advice for New Leaders

54:04 Personal Reflections and Purpose

Connect with John:

LinkedIn personal - https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnjfentonceocoach/

Get the book, 5 Minute Mastery - https://www.amazon.com/stores/John-J.-Fenton/author/B07JF9LCS3?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Proteon Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting

(00:09):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, St. Stephens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery, from unraveling the unique stories that shaped our guest careers,
to invaluable advice that fueled their success.
We hereby provide you with a simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career and personal
growth.
Whether you're a budding professional or a seasoned executive, these conversations

(00:31):
are designed to offer insight and perspectives that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Proteon Conversations.
Today we're excited to have John Fenton, also known as the CEO Sensei.
After a remarkable career at BDO, John has now dedicated his expertise to empowering leaders
in accounting, law, and financial sectors.

(00:53):
With his proprietary coaching process, John simplifies complex challenges into actionable
steps, aligning leadership actions with core values.
Join us as we explore his techniques for cultivating gratitude, vision, and smooth operation to
transform professional environments.
John, welcome to Proteon Conversations.
Thank you so much, Zane.
It's a pleasure to be with you today.
Yeah, it's good to see you and have you on the show.

(01:15):
I know we've met going on about a year now.
It's just a little short of it, and it's always been interesting to be around you and
learn from you and your insights.
So I am really excited for the conversation today.
Well, I really appreciate the opportunity, and I'm excited to share.
Yeah, I knew you had an interesting career, and I'm always excited about what you do
now, and I love reading what you post on LinkedIn and the various posts you share.

(01:38):
But I think it was sort of lost on me that you had this whole lifetime career before
the leadership executive coaching style.
And I knew you'd been there, but when you get into it, you're like, oh, wow, it was
a real career.
It was 30 plus years in the accounting space, and I think it's a great place to start because

(01:58):
I think sometimes it's lost on people that accounting is the start and end for everyone.
But sometimes it could just be the step one to greater things.
So just sort of share with us that early career.
How did you get into it, and what made you stick around for over 30 years?
Oh, yeah.
Thank you so much.
It wasn't a straight line.
It wasn't even an inclining line.

(02:21):
It was some starts and stops and different experiences.
You know, I was in the accounting program.
I played college football, so I was in the accounting program, which most guys don't
do because it's very strenuous.
I mean, we're talking division one football.
So it's a lot of time commitment, right?
And so but I had a mentor who's one of my roommates, his dad was in accounting and everything.

(02:43):
You see, you ought to go for accounting degree.
So we both went to the accounting program.
I was fortunate enough to actually work on my MBA and finished my MBA while I was still
playing football at the university and University of Miami.
So that was a really great opportunity for me.
Well, the only people hiring in 1981, dating myself, in 1981 were CPA firms.
Economy was crazy.

(03:04):
A lot of unemployment.
Inflation was super high.
And I went to work for R3 Anderson in Houston, Texas.
Was there a little over a year and a half, then I joined the firm that I was with for
over 30 years, BDO USA.
And we started a family in Houston and we decided to move back to our home state, Florida
and Miami area.
And we did that when our daughter was born.

(03:24):
And I actually jumped out of public accounting and went to work for a fortune 1000 company.
And I was there about six months.
I said, I hate this.
I hate this because I saw guys and guys and gals doing the same thing for like 30 years.
And I said, this is not me, you know, I'm very driven, very focused on achieving and

(03:46):
growing.
And I could just see myself getting bored really fast.
And I was bored.
And the opportunities there that presented to me weren't the opportunities that I really
wanted to pursue for my own career.
So I came back to the firm in the Miami office and spent the rest of my career with BDO USA
and moved around a little bit.
I was in four different offices of the firm.
So those are challenges in and of themselves.

(04:07):
It was interesting.
One of my colleagues, I'm still very close to my friends at BDO, one of my colleagues
who was a managing partner in the Boston area said to me, gosh, you know, you've been here
over 30 years and all these management changes and leadership changes and you survived all
of it.
That's amazing.
Those are real life lessons there.
I also experienced a little bit in college with three different head coaches, which is

(04:27):
a whole nother conversation we can talk about.
But I think for me, it was what drew me to public accounting was the fact that I could
see the path to leadership and ownership.
Right?
So I wanted to be a partner.
I'm very driven that way.
And I put in the hours and did all that stuff and traveled and, you know, moved my family
around a few times.

(04:48):
Usually a family consideration was part of that move.
So it was getting closer to family, each move.
And so that was part of it, part of my values, right?
But it really turned into a great opportunity.
And I was last running the Atlanta practice for the firm and we doubled the size of the
firm in a very short period of time, less than four years, really upgraded the quality

(05:08):
of the clients and upgraded our staff and talent of our staff.
And it was really an interesting time, the early thousands.
And much like we're seeing right now in the world with labor shortages and less people
in the profession and the growth that's happening in CPA firms.
But to answer your question, it was just something I knew.
It was a path that I wanted to follow to be an owner, to be an owner.

(05:28):
So I call on you to pass the D1 sport, the football reference.
So tell us, give us a quick breakdown of that career.
Oh my gosh.
I've had a mini career in itself.
Yeah.
So, you know, Division 1 and Division 2 levels, I mean, it's even more so intense now, but
it's a full-time job, right?
I mean, you have practices every day, meetings every day, you got games on the weekends,

(05:52):
even in the springtime, you've got spring football and training sessions and all that
kind of stuff.
And so it's pretty much a full-time job.
I really, before high school, I didn't even play football.
It just, I kind of fell into it.
I really wanted to be a fullback.
I wanted to be Larry Zonka, the Dolphins was my idol.
In about three days in a practice, in my freshman year in high school, I said, no, you're an
offensive lineman, go over there.

(06:13):
But I really did well.
I was the top prospect in the state of Florida coming out of high school, and I had many
options to attend universities, Division 1, full scholarship.
And decided to stay closer to home, yours in Miami, which was not a popular choice because
our program was like three and eight.
The first two years were three and eight.
Team was not very good.

(06:34):
The experience of that, thankfully, in my last year, we were 18th in the country and
had won nine games and were in the pitch bowl, which set the stage for about two, three years
later was the first national championship team at Miami.
And I kind of feel like my class and the guys that I played with and even the younger players
who were on that team three years later, we kind of set the stage for future success.

(06:56):
And a lot of it's coaching.
And I've always been a student of sort of leadership, right?
What makes a really good team and what makes a lousy team?
Obviously talent's important, right?
But also leadership at the top and the head coaches and being consistent, having discipline,
accountability, also building trust in the organization.
And so I was on, like I said, I was on some really crappy teams, okay?

(07:19):
Like three and eight, five and six.
And my last year, we were a championship team, won the pitch bowl and 18th in the country,
which is a high honor.
I'm on top 20 team.
And even in high school, we went from a 500 ball club, basically six and four, whatever,
six and four, five and five team to a state champion, undefeated state champion.

(07:41):
And the difference was we bonded as a team.
We bonded and we trusted each other.
We were all best friends.
We built a level of trust and the coaching staff was really excellent.
Right?
That's a lot of it, right?
But also we learned and we weren't, we didn't approach everything like we knew everything,
right?
That's one of my secret weapons, I think was just, I was like a specialist.
I just wanted to learn everything I could, right?

(08:01):
No preconceptions about how things should be, you know?
And those lessons really carry over into life, teamwork and dealing with struggle and dealing
with issues, dealing with adversity, overcoming injuries.
I had a few of those along the way and really putting myself out there to be the best that
I could be to help my teammates.
Oh, that's great.
In a couple of notes, it makes me feel good that I am anti-lating my second and third

(08:26):
greatest plate tackle football, which is, you know, our town has a two year, two years
in a row state champion high school team.
Oh, nice.
Got very popular San Mariner in Nevada.
Got very, very popular and, you know, the elementary school programs all of a sudden
big again, which I'm like, let them play soccer or let them run around and have some fun.
They're not, they're not learning much at that age.

(08:48):
I think they're learning about teamwork and just developing their own personal skills.
Yeah.
I mean, some great athletes and they're really excel in other sports, but they can carry
that over to football or basketball, whatever baseball or whatever sport might be.
And it's just finding that lane that niche that you do really well.
I didn't even, I mean, in high school and, you know, we're really worked hard at it in
college.

(09:09):
I never anticipated I was going to go to college.
Honestly, growing up, if you knew me as a kid, you would never guess I'd play high
school football, let alone college football.
And here I was a top 20 recruit in the state and a blue chip prospect.
It was way before they had the star rating system they have now.
And, but I just, I loved it and I reveled in it and I worked hard at it and I worked
hard in the most things and I love the discipline of it.

(09:30):
And, you know, it's just something I didn't even think about.
I just did it, right?
I just was totally immersed in it.
And kind of that zone of, there's a book out there called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks.
It's been out for a number of years.
It's about finding your zone of genius.
And for me, high school and college, it was really playing at a high level in football.

(09:50):
And you played on the whole line.
So you really had to love it to stick around because that is no fun on a position.
Well, you know, the good thing about being, first of all, I was the center, first of all,
so.
A little bit better, I guess.
I'm one, snap the ball to the quarterback.
Yeah.
Do it, you know, proper timing, but we knew the advantage was we knew the snap count.
The other team, now a lot of teams would try to guess at it, right?

(10:11):
And try to jump.
But, you know, you're the aggressor, you're offense, right?
And so I love playing.
I actually played two ways for a little bit in high school.
I played defensive in an offensive tackle.
But when I was maturing up into the varsity level, I said, no, just be offensive line.
I had a choice offense or defense.
I show offense a lot, which is probably a good move for me.
Although I think the edge rushers today, I think are amazing.

(10:32):
I love it.
Tight ends, I think are really cool.
We used to, I used to have a debate with the, the tight one of the tight ends that I used
to debate.
Who's the best athlete on offense?
The tight ends are the center.
We had a lot of fun with that, but.
Yeah, very interesting.
You know, not to like pre-jump any of the conversations we're going to have a lot further

(10:53):
along, but I'm assuming you learned a ton about leadership and your leadership style
and some values in your leadership from playing such high level sport.
Oh, absolutely.
One was, you know, I wasn't always really good at this.
It was a hard lesson for me because I think one of the lessons for me was I was a loner
really in a lot of ways.
I always had the, I always had the idea I had to achieve everything on my own.

(11:15):
On a team sport, you can't possibly do that.
You have to rely on other people.
And I could have been a better teammate for sure.
I cared about my teammates, but it didn't always show it.
And some of that was just trying to overcome some injuries and things and get my, I had
to focus on me first to be able to play some serious injuries along the way, but I was
able to come back from them and play.

(11:36):
And I think, you know, the experience of first of all, three different head coaches,
three different systems and the expectations of three different leaders, right?
Different levels of commitment.
I saw a lot of non-commitment by some of the guys I played with my first two years.
And we kept upgrading the quality of the people coming into the program and the coaches.
Each time we changed the coach, it was for the better.

(11:58):
And I think that made a big difference.
And also having a vision.
I'm really keen on having a vision and purpose.
And the one thing that stood out my last coach, Howard Steltenberger, who passed away a few
years ago.
He won the first national championship of Miami.
He was very clear.
Here's the road we're going to follow.
We're going to get to a bowl game, earn away to a bowl game.
Eventually we're going to win a national championship.

(12:19):
He did it in five years.
That's vision, right?
It was very clear.
We had a chart on the wall that showed our progress towards, you know, the road, the goals,
the goals was a bowl game and then, and then national championship later.
And we had a big, you know, big sign up in the locker room that depicted that.
And I think having that visual reference and having it, you know, and sports is very clear,

(12:43):
right?
You want to be the champion in business is a little bit fuzzier, right?
I mean, champion at one.
And I think what I think where it carries over is, let's be our best every day.
Let's be at our best.
So what does that mean?
In business, it means build relationships.
I could have done a much better job building relationships as an athlete, looking back

(13:03):
on what hindsight.
So relationships are so important.
If you think you're in a numbers business and accounting profession, guess what?
You're actually in a relationship business.
And so it's around people, culture and relationships.
Tom Peters, in search of excellence co-author and author of many big books about excellence.
One of his latest books was excellence now, extreme humanism.

(13:26):
And he's focusing on, we used to call soft skills, you know, skills and that.
It's really what he calls foundational bedrock skills.
So what we used to think of soft is really hard because they're foundational, right?
Having good relationships, having a thriving culture that's people oriented because people
are the people, everybody on the team is how you're delivering your product or your services,

(13:46):
especially in the accounting profession.
And so, and what we used to call is hard, like the hard numbers, org charts, forget the
other one, strategic plans.
I do, I do strategic plans for clients, strategic plans.
They're soft because they can be subject to manipulation and change, right?
They're always moving, right?
So kind of flipping the script, if you will, around how we think about business and what's

(14:09):
really important.
And I think in the accounting profession today, there's so much concern about fewer people
entering the profession.
How do we retain our employees?
You know, I think really being forced now to really think about what is the culture and
experience that our employees have.
So we can nurture and grow through an apprenticeship model, younger people that hopefully one day

(14:33):
want to be an owner or at least be a major contributor to the firm.
Yeah, it is a little different.
And I'm glad it's a little bit different because, you know, I feel sometimes I live in this
world where I get to all about the people and people like, oh, it's all about the results,
right?
And it's sort of like, yeah, but it is a bit of both.
And I think the sports analogy is great because the vision is like lifting that trophy, right?

(14:55):
And you're always working every single day towards it.
And I know that's the best way, like when you're coaching a team is, you know, how do
we stick into the vision?
Are we doing something today that will help us towards that trophy if we're not?
Why are we even spending our time on it, right?
Exactly.
And that could be a conversation with the team about, hey, holding each other accountable,
being good teammates.
It could be, you know, technical skills.

(15:15):
It could be running strategy.
You can do all of that and you're working towards the same goal.
And in business, I think it's the same thing.
Right.
And successful businesses are the ones that I look at, they understand who they want to
be and what they're trying to achieve.
You know, not necessarily I want to be the greatest accounting firm in the world, but
they've got their definition of what grade is and they're working towards it.

(15:36):
And the ones that do exceptionally well are the ones that just focus and continuously
do tasks to work towards that ultimate vision.
And that's exactly the way you do in sports.
It is, you know, there's a lot of great lessons in sports in terms of working a lot.
And you obviously had a great example with a coach that was hyper focused like this is
the goal.

(15:56):
We're going to be a national champion and this is what we're going to do to get there.
Absolutely.
And even, you know, it's interesting, you know, football because it's compressed timeframe,
right?
You have one year, basically right at one season, right?
Now, you know, it takes time to build successful teams the right way.
It doesn't happen overnight.
But there's a sense of urgency because you got the next game, the next, you know, championship

(16:18):
that year, whatever.
So it's very compressed.
So there's a lot that goes on in that, right?
It's the high stress situation, which is fine because you choose very quickly about how
you're going to perform.
But the biggest thing I learned too in sports was, like you mentioned, it's the small things
that matter.
And where do you focus your attention?
Like, where do you focus on?
We were in a game, we were playing our arch rival.

(16:40):
It was the last game of the season.
We were down 21-nothing in half time and we went in the locker room.
And I can't even remember what the conversation was in the locker room.
I don't think anybody broke any chairs or anything in there.
So we came out in the second half.
We had a great running back who played in the NFL for a number of years, OJ Anderson,
a great teammate.
And we just put the, kind of put it on his shoulders, right, to carry us.

(17:02):
And we ended up winning the game 22-21.
What happened was we could have sat there and looked at the scoreboard all day long
and said, oh my God, we're down 21 points.
Yeah, I got to put that out in your mind.
It's like, you can focus on the result you want, right?
What you really need to focus on is what's the next best action to take right now?

(17:23):
What's the next play?
Right?
What's the next yard to game?
Right?
That sort of thing.
So you bring it down to the immediate present moment, really, right?
Where am I in the present moment?
Am I really focused?
And I'll be honest, I later, a couple of years later in my career, I was kind of feeling down
going into one of our games and my performance suffered from it, right?

(17:46):
And I was kind of getting in my own way in that moment of, you know, I'm not getting
the recognition I should be getting and blah, blah, blah.
And I did not have a great performance.
And I shifted because I realized what I had done to myself, right?
And I think really, really being focused on what's the end game, what can I do right
now in the present moment to make the team better, whatever that might be.

(18:07):
It might be something small, really small.
I can make a huge difference.
That's a great lesson.
We could think, you know, it's lost on people a lot of time.
When you start getting negative thoughts in your mind, whatever that is, feeling sorry
for yourself, feeling better towards somebody else, all certain things do start to turn
even more negative and staying positive is important.

(18:28):
But as the competitors that you're against that were 21-0 up, you also got to understand
that you got to live in the moment right now as well and not get too overconfident because
I know you guys probably did a lot of things right, but I'm guessing they came out of that
half thinking that game was done and rested on their laurels and they contributed to that
downfall as much as you guys do with the winning spirit brought to it as well.

(18:49):
Yeah, it's really interesting the dynamics of emotions.
You see it in games now where the team's up big time in the first half and then they
lose the second half, right?
It happens a lot.
And it's never losing focus, never losing focus on what the objective is, on what do
I need to do right now and not panicking about, oh, we're not getting the result we want
right now.
And, you know, sports is a lot about you try something and it works or it doesn't work,

(19:12):
right?
Same in business.
You know, you have to introduce some initiatives, maybe some new markets or new products or
services you want to introduce.
Maybe they work right away.
Maybe they don't.
So, the question is, do you have the temerity and the vision to carry that through fruition
or do you recognize early on it's going to be a failure and you pull the plug early too?
That's right.

(19:32):
So, there's a real, takes a lot of finesse as a leader to understand where you at and
where you and your firm are at in terms of those types of, those questions that happen
day to day, decision making is so important.
Let's move back to BDO and you mentioned you liked the whole idea of there's a direct
path you understood the way to go about it.
It was all easy, but still not it's still not an easy environment, right?

(19:55):
It's not easy at all.
There's a lot of politics at play as much as the path is like, hey, this is what I need
to do.
Like you said, you had multiple leadership changes.
I know BDO, I mean, when I sort of started the accounting space, BDO wasn't a big thing
in South Africa, then also they took it by storm, they came in, they bought a bunch of
firms really showed up and they've had multiple changes over the years and I know that's just

(20:17):
the way they've been a pretty dynamic firm for clearly for a very long time.
How did you deal with it?
How did you stay motivated?
How did you stay on path?
Yeah, it's really interesting because the firm went through a lot of transformations
as a culture of the firm in terms of who we serve, right?
And depending on which office you were in, you'd have a little more expertise in particular

(20:39):
areas.
So New York and Chicago area had a lot of several public and health companies, that
sort of thing.
Over time with the changes in the marketplace in the early 2000s, Anderson went out of business,
some other firms were struggling, Harbin's Oxy was kicking in, so they were casting
off clients and were great opportunities to grow our business, right?

(21:00):
So we had to shift.
And I think the big thing for me is, and it's so prescient today, I remember I read an article
earlier this morning about this too, Drives at Home, Resiliency and Flexibility.
So I think all the experiences of my life leading up to in my career as a managing partner
and a couple of different offices in the firm, including Atlanta, the last one, being resilient,

(21:23):
being focused on where do we want to go, but staying true to your values, right?
So there were some, you know, I won't say ethical things that happened, but there were
times where you had to make some decisions that are hard decisions.
Whether it's personnel related or, you know, a client matter, right?
And what kind of decisions are you going to make in that moment, right?

(21:43):
Like where are you going to fall?
And sometimes you have to make these decisions on the fly.
And I always stay grounded in, okay, this is what we're trying to do.
This is, I'm thinking about, first of all, the firm's position, potential liability,
not good what I never got sued, liability for the firm, is it good for the firm?
You know, the decision about a new client, a client acceptance, this is good for the

(22:05):
firm.
So staying grounded in the values, right?
Ethical values of myself and the firm that were consistent.
You can kind of navigate these things.
And you're not going to get every decision right.
Definitely not going to get every decision right.
And there were times where I was, you know, criticized for making a decision that, you
know, one leader thought was not the right decision in the moment, but I think long-term

(22:26):
it was the right decision for the firm.
So, you know, I was willing to, I had the courage to make those kind of decisions because
I knew I was grounded in the values.
And whatever was going to happen was going to happen, right?
I had to have that leap of faith, if you will, that I would come through it okay either
way.

(22:46):
And it worked out.
Obviously I was there for 32 years and had at least three different leadership changes
that I survived.
It's one of my partners pointed out, again, just staying true to my values and also building
relationships around the firm too.
You know, you pick up the phone and talking to people.
I'm human to human.
I think it's so important.
It's so important nowadays as well.
So a couple of questions from that.

(23:07):
You mentioned resiliency and I always feel like that is an undervalued skill in people,
but especially in accountants, right?
It's very easy for people to drop their heads when things get a little tough or don't go
their own way.
How would you recommend people developers at Lincey in their lives?
I think first of all, get up a mindset that you're not going to quit.

(23:28):
I'm not a quitter.
My freshman year in college, going back to sports again, the whole coaching staff was
fired at the end of my first season there.
And they actually almost canceled the football program.
They didn't, but they almost did.
So I'm sitting on the bus after the coaches got fired the night before the last game,
we're on a road trip, we're on the bus heading back to the airport and I'm like, what do

(23:50):
I do now?
So something inside me told me to not quit and try to go transfer like everybody nowadays.
I see guys can transfer every time the portal opens up, you can transfer multiple times,
right?
It wasn't available to athletes back then, but I just felt like, you know, why did I
go to the University of Miami?
I saw a path where they had an opportunity for, first of all, I want to make a difference.

(24:12):
I knew I could contribute to the program.
They had a history of guys making it to the next level at the NFL and they had a history
of having good programs up until like a decade before I got there, right?
So there was, I felt there was an opportunity to help make things better and contribute
to that and hopefully get a shot at playing at the next level.
And so it was closer to family, right?

(24:35):
And so I made the decisions to go there and I decided I'm not going to change, I'm not
going to transfer.
And I think just not being a quitter, right?
Sticking it out, you can't predict what the future is going to be, right?
For a time, you may have more information so you can decide whether or not that was
a good decision or not, right?
In that moment, for me, it worked out.
I mean, I'm not sure a lot of universities would have said, hey, I mean, the athletic

(24:58):
director came to me and said, hey, what are you going to do next year?
I had the fifth year.
And I said, well, I'm in the accounting program.
I'll finish, I'll stretch out my credits and finish in December next, next December.
I don't get a job, you know, public accounting firm in January.
And he said, have you thought about getting your master's degree?
And I never considered it.
So he said, apply for the GMAT and then submit the application into the MBA program, which

(25:22):
I did and I got accepted.
And that's amazing, right?
I mean, I was able to play and finish my master's degree in a 12-month period while playing
football and I'd just gotten married and all that good stuff and still competed at a high
level and really gave me something a lot of folks in the accounting industry didn't have,
which was an MBA degree before they were mandating fifth year requirements.

(25:44):
I mean, that's just a great opportunity.
So sticking it out and then at top, we were ranked 18th in the country, et cetera.
So and a team that went on three years later, a 22-year run of being one of the top teams
in the country.
I don't want to have thought that, right?
So I could have left and gone somewhere else, but you never know if the grass is not always
greener, right?
So sticking it out, I think it's a big part of it and trusting your instincts, make decisions

(26:08):
based on your values and never wavering from those values.
You're speaking about values a lot and it feels like it's a normal thing that everybody
has a set of values that they live by, but I don't necessarily think that's probably
that true.
I think there's a lot more people running around not quite knowing what their values are.
They've sort of got a sense of what's important to them, but they don't have that sense of

(26:32):
core values that they use to run their daily life focusing on like, this is what I believe
in, this is how I'm going to operate.
Values are important and I know, you know, most of the time if you're working for somebody,
you're going to be happiest when your values align, right?
That's really hard to find that happiness if you don't know what your values are to start
with.
Do you have any advice for people on sort of identifying what's important to them, what

(26:55):
their values are?
Yes, I think it's important to have some reflection time.
This is a perfect time of year to do that.
Excuse me, the end of one year, the beginning of the next, it's a great time.
I actually have a process that I share with my clients around reflecting on the past year
and what's happened and what are the values, really calling out to yourself, what are the

(27:16):
values that are most important to you?
Do you value time with your family?
Do you value honesty?
Do you value trustworthiness?
So the values, they give you or take 10 leaders in history.
They can be living, no longer living.
They could be superheroes, they could be comic strip heroes, whatever.

(27:37):
But if you look at these leaders, these heroes, if you will, from different walks of life
and write down for each of those, so 10 people, male or female, real or unreal, living no
longer with us, what are some attributes, what are 10 attributes that you admire about
that person and what it does that really helps you to reflect and think, go through that

(28:01):
process, what you'll find at the end of that process, I'll give you a little sneak peek
as to what the outcome will be.
You'll see some commonalities in those attributes and those are their values and those values
align with what you really, truly admire.
So you want to live to those values and it's a real easy way to kind of forget about it.
Don't focus on yourself, focus on others and what you admire about them.

(28:25):
And nine times out of 10, most of those are going to be resonate with you and what your
values really are.
And write them down.
Have them in a place where you can refer to them from time to time.
Think about them.
I'm a big believer in meditation and affirmations.
We didn't talk about this, but part of my background is I'm a black belt and Tai Chi
and Jack Canfield Success Principles certified trainer.

(28:49):
And it's really around envisioning what you want to accomplish and then start to take
small actions today that are going to make that happen.
Remember that is really, as I mentioned, you're being true to your values and give yourself
some space.
Give yourself a few minutes.
I wrote a book called Five Minute Masteries about spending five minutes a day to really
reflect and focus on yourself.

(29:10):
What are the values that you most hold most dear?
And which you'll really notice is if you're not aligned with the values of your company
or your firm, you're going to feel it every day.
You may not recognize it, but if your values are aligned, it's going to be like pushing
a rock uphill.
It's going to struggle every day, right?
So whereas if things feel easy, even in hard times, things might feel easy in terms of

(29:34):
your progress in the firm, how you feel about your place in the firm, that sort of thing,
that means most of the values are aligned.
Not all of them, maybe, but most of the values are going to be aligned.
And it's a place where you'd want to continue to work out and contribute to because they
are aligned.
Yeah, I love that.
That's the way of doing the exercise of sort of focusing on other people that you really

(29:55):
admire and seeing what they like.
I think sometimes it's really hard for people to take the personal step of looking inward
and saying, what matters to me?
And taking that out to a third party, I think it makes a big difference.
I think it really does help the process.
I like that.
So I'm somebody who's really clear with my values.
I look at them often and really look at it.

(30:18):
So I feel comfortable doing it.
But if you are a little uncomfortable doing it, I think using John's method of going to
a third party is really great advice and I'd recommend everybody listening to go do it.
I might just do that exercise during this break as well to see if I'm really listening
to what's happening in my head or if it's maybe I'm slightly misaligned and need some
adjustments.

(30:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And remember that values can change and that's important.
And that's why I think you sort of like this is a good time of the year.
You sit in your calendar once a year, find an hour and sit down and do this exercise.
Let's get to understand what your values are, what's important to you at that time.
It'll help you set goals for the year at once.
I don't like new years resolutions, but I love goal setting for the next year.

(31:00):
Sure.
Absolutely.
One of the things I do with many of my clients is I have a VIP day and I'll spend one day,
immersive day, planning the next year.
And part of it is, okay, what are the values that hold most dear and what are the values
you want to live by?
What do you want to change?
What do you want to add or subtract?
And what do you want to increase?
What do you want to double down on and focus on?

(31:21):
And also, from a personal side, but also because we're humans, right?
So we have, there's many facets to us other than just hitting your numbers and business
and that kind of thing, but what's in your bank account, right?
But also focusing on the numbers too, focusing on the financial side of things, focusing on
your career and really, again, taking a step back to reflect on those things and then decide,

(31:42):
what are the three to five significant goals I want to accomplish this year that are going
to help me move down the path to further my career or my firm?
You touched a lot on your actual coaching process.
So let's talk about how did you make this jump from, you know, partner in a big CPA
firm through to coach?
How did that come about?

(32:02):
Well, you know, thank you for that question.
I, it's really interesting.
So during my career, I had this idea that I wanted to be a coach for other people.
And so an opportunity came to me where there was a person who helped CPAs and attorneys
do marketing for their firms.

(32:23):
And I was interviewing this coach and to see what she was about and to see if it would
be a fit for some of our people.
I said, you know, I can see myself doing something similar to what she's doing, maybe not in
the same way, not so much marketing, you know, working one-on-one with people, helping them.
So actually I engaged her to help me, coach me to experience it.
And I, several of my partners and several of my senior, senior leaders also used her

(32:47):
services.
And who's been one of, about focusing on relationships, one-on-one meetings and working
with people and really just contributing and helping people improve to be better at what
they do.
I mentioned along the way that I got into Tai Chi and became a black belt in a master
in meditation.
I actually taught Tai Chi and ran a center.

(33:08):
When I retired, I took about a year or so and ran, reopened a closed center and built
it back up and then stabilized it.
And then they sold it as a franchise to another person.
But it was all about giving and sharing and being with people in a different way, obviously,
in teaching martial arts and meditation.

(33:29):
But it gave me a good foundation as well.
So I'm always about trying to help other people.
And term master, really all the master really means is not that I'm better than anybody.
It just means I've gone before, I've gone a little bit further ahead than someone else
has gone because mastery is something you don't, you never master it, like perfection.
We can't be perfect.

(33:50):
We're human beings.
So mastery is really a continuous process, self mastery, continually improving, continually
taking a hard look at ourselves and saying, what could I do better?
How could I be better here?
Right?
As a leader, a human being.
And for me, that was really kind of a genesis of what really was important to me.

(34:10):
Well, in the way I had an opportunity to be a Vistage coach, a Vistage chair, learned
a lot through the Vistage program and ran, started up a group and then ran that group
for about a year and a half.
And then decided to double down on me and really focus on what I was doing to further
my expertise in coaching and I do group coaching and one-on-one coaching, strategic work sessions,

(34:36):
really helping teams understand where they're going, where they're headed and how to get
there.
So for me, it was all about helping others.
This came home to me.
It's kind of like, what is my purpose?
What is my purpose in life?
I still want to be relevant.
Okay.
Now, look, I live in a great lake and golf community.

(34:57):
I can play golf.
I couldn't play every day.
My knees won't allow that, but I can play golf pretty regularly and have a cocktail at four
o'clock every afternoon, but that's not where I saw my life going.
I wanted to be relevant and make a difference, have a greater impact and influence in the
industry, the accounting industry and help leaders be better leaders, better human beings.

(35:17):
And that really has driven me.
Do you think you had some of that passion from managing teams at BDR, building teams
there, building groups up, leading people there?
Did that sort of influence the decision to go into the coaching space?
What influenced my decision to focus on accounting firms, for sure?
I think the fun of, to me, it was all about, let's have fun.

(35:41):
Let's do something really cool.
Let's grow the business.
Let's improve our profits like a game.
So for me, I think my sports background is what really led to that kind of mindset around
it.
Now, I will tell you, the hardest part of business is managing people.
One of my clients said this to me about two years ago.
She said, you know, John, he was a brand new CEO of a CPA firm.

(36:04):
She said, John, peopling is hard.
Yes, it is.
Yes, it is.
So it's getting, you know, kind of getting a little messy sometimes with people and personalities
and everybody has different wants and desires and perspectives from their own life experiences,
right?
So being open to kind of find that common ground, that sort of thing.
But really just connecting with people in a way that, hey, let's just achieve something

(36:27):
that's really cool together.
And what we achieved in Atlanta was we became one of the top 10 offices of the firm.
That's really cool.
I mean, the firm, the office wasn't doing so great when I first got there.
And I'll, you know, sometimes luck falls into this, right?
But it was a change in the marketplace and we were just opportunity were abounding to
grow the firm dramatically, just like many firms are seeing right now, right?

(36:49):
There was work coming in the front door constantly.
And so again, being flexible, being open-minded and staying true to our vision, where do we
want to take our firm is really important.
And I think for me, just having fun and building a team and the camaraderie, you know, the
camaraderie of achieving something together is really cool.
Yes, very interesting.

(37:10):
And you know, most people out there need a coach.
I think there's tons of accounting people who are trying to run their own sort of practices
or grow a firm or already in a firm and need some help.
And there's just a lot of need for it because, you know, as an industry, we made a lot of
mistakes over the years.
One of them, you know, for lack of better word, is the lack of focus and soft skills.

(37:33):
I mean, they've always had, you know, the training, but it's really just like, let's
tick the box mandatory.
We taught you how to time manage.
We taught you how to talk to people.
Like it's always just really tick box stuff and there's no real substance of it.
And we definitely need more of that in the space.
Yeah.
You know, how would you explain your, sorry, you go ahead.

(37:54):
I was going to say that you mentioned ticking the box.
I had, I wrote an article from my newsletter once recently about, are you a check the box
leader or are you a connected leader?
Right?
Just checking the box or you're building relationships, really meeting people where
they're at face to face on zoom to zoom, whatever it might be, right?

(38:14):
But being connected to people and really just learning more about the human being, right?
And understanding where they're coming from so that you can, can help you a better coach
for them.
That's really part of the issue, but things being a great coach for your teammates.
Yeah.
I sometimes get told, it's a little software.
I talked about making real human connections, building the trust.
And you'll see that what you say to people, the way you act with people, what they'll

(38:36):
do for you in times of need will be so significantly different.
If you really focused in on the relationship rather than, he's saying told me that I need
to talk to these people once a month and I need to follow this form and check it out.
Like that's never going to be successful.
It will do a job and it'll help the overall process.
But if you're not making true relationships with the people or identifying when they're

(38:58):
struggling, because everybody tells you, right?
They're really like, oh, I never knew they're struggling.
Like I promise you there were telltale signs that they needed your help.
There's even a good chance they asked you straight out, I need help and you missed it because
you hadn't taken the time to build the connection.
So you didn't understand the subtle change in tone, facial features, body language.

(39:19):
You get stuck in that, to take the box and you can, you know, take the box is relevant
at times.
There are, there are thoughts that just have to take the box and you get it done with.
But if you're ignoring that connected leadership portion as you put it, it's just never going
to work out.
That's very true.
It's almost following your intuition.
You probably know in a conversation something doesn't feel right.

(39:39):
Something in your body telling you this, right?
I learned this from the martial arts.
Something in your body is telling you this is something that doesn't feel right.
Maybe it's in my gut, maybe it's in my shoulder, whatever it might be.
And so when you have that feeling, it's like, okay, ask the next question.
Right?
And keep asking questions.
Not that you want to be intrusive, but you really want to understand.

(40:00):
And then listen.
That's the big thing too.
I mean, you know, I could, I could talk all day long, but what I've had to learn over
the years was I have to step back and really just ask a few questions and then listen.
Yeah, like we just, as a group read super communicators and there's a lot about boss
getting the next question, making sure you're actually listening and pushing them a bit
deeper, even if it's uncomfortable for you, because that's any way you can really understand

(40:22):
what that person is trying to tell you.
John, tell me a little bit about your coaching philosophy.
What's your style of coaching?
How do you approach, you know, coaching an individual or a group or a team?
Absolutely.
Well, it's very customized, depending on what that person needs.
But a lot of it is built around goal setting and then holding, I won't say holding them

(40:45):
able that they can accomplish what they, I'm going to hold myself accountable to be the
accountability partner for them to achieve their goals, right?
But I also want to hold them able to achieve their success.
So we look at all aspects.
There's like seven or eight aspects of being human, right?
Different parts of our lives.
We start with that kind of a self assessment, a leadership.
I have a leadership assessment tool.

(41:06):
And we kind of go through, we basically go through, okay, what are your goals for this
year and the five years out, let's say, right?
What's your end game?
Like where do you want to be?
What's the legacy you want to leave?
That sort of thing.
So it gives people to go way out in the future and come back to the present.
The philosophy though is really to start as a starting point to build a foundation.

(41:26):
And I call that it's really around integration and understanding who we are as a leader.
So monthly we meet, we do it like a one day intensive, a full day VIP day.
And we'll meet, depending on the amount of time that the individual has with the commitment
they want to make, it can be a six month or 12 month program.
And we'll meet for up to two hours each month, either in person or virtually.

(41:48):
The VIP day, I like to generally do that in person.
And so we build a foundation off of that and we focus on what are the goals you want to
accomplish.
We'll lay out three to five.
You don't want any more than that.
And we'll do five goals because quite honestly, you're not going to get them all done and
be laser focused on that.
And then checking in monthly, okay, what's happening in this particular issue?

(42:10):
So a lot of it's strategic.
I mean, from time to time, there's going to be tactical things that are going to come
up, particular issues with a particular person or a client situation or something that's
bubbled up, a potential, maybe a lawsuit or something has come up.
So being, kind of bringing my 40 plus years of experience in life and business and athletics

(42:33):
and all that good stuff to help them be the best leader they can be in the moment.
So it's very much focused on being in the present moment.
Where do you want to go?
What do we need to do right now in the present moment to help you achieve those goals?
And then what are the hot button issues that day, for that week, for that month that are
really troubling you?
And what can we do to maybe shine a light on that?

(42:55):
Thinking differently about what's happening because we all have our own preconceptions
and our own thoughts based on our own life experiences.
So again, I'm clear that, you know, person that can kind of call BS if you will, if I
hear something that sounds authentic to the person or to help them reflect and say, well,
maybe you could think about this a little differently.

(43:16):
So as I like to say, you know, think differently, achieve more.
It's a lot of helping them set those goals, holding them accountable and then, you know,
sort of a little bit of shepherding and keeping them on the path.
And I incorporate, you know, from time to time, if it makes sense, some tai chi or some
Medi-Tip.
Yep.
You know, Maul about when you're a calm, if you're confident in your ability, believing

(43:40):
in yourself, you're coming from a good place based on values and you are able to achieve
a level of calm no matter what's going on around you.
Okay.
I mean, I remember having to make some tough decisions and staring out the window thinking,
which way do we go with this?
Like, what do we do here?
Right.
And I always kept coming back to reflecting, what are my core values?

(44:02):
What's the best for the firm or for this person in the firm and the situation?
And I think so having that sense of calm and self-confidence is in clarity because there's
so much noise out there.
Right.
So being clear about what it is you want to accomplish, grounding yourself in your values,
taking time to reflect and step back gives you that space to be more calm, to really

(44:25):
make better decisions as a leader.
Yeah, right.
Interesting.
What are your thoughts on leadership and gratitude?
So I'm glad you asked that question.
So I usually close out my meetings or my, like I'll do a partner retreat.
We'll close it out with the power of gratitude and appreciation.
When we show gratitude or appreciation for others, it's like one of the highest levels

(44:49):
of emotions we can have as human beings.
And if it's authentic and it's real, that resonates with the people you're leading.
So not drive-bys, not an email, right?
But actually, you know, getting physically close to them, talk to them, you know, acknowledge
them, have a real conversation with them around what it is you appreciate in that moment is

(45:09):
really, really important.
And I think, you know, if you're in a place of gratitude, I had one client who, I'm having
some tough issues personally, and my advice to him was, look, I want you to, in the morning,
and you hear this a lot, right?
But in the morning, this is what I want you to do.
Write down three things you're grateful for when you wake up.

(45:29):
At the end of the day, before you go to sleep at night, write down three things you're grateful
for that happened during the day.
And do that for 30 days.
And just watch yourself what happens to you, like it is your mood change over those 30
days.
You have a different perspective on things.
We can get caught up in, you know, what was me or, you know, I'm not getting the recognition

(45:53):
I deserve, whatever it might be, or things aren't going right.
But if you just step back and say, you know, I'm really grateful, it can be small things.
I'm grateful for the sunshine today, right?
I'm grateful for, you know, my grandchild in my case, right?
So just things in your life that you're grateful for that sense of gratitude.
And we will kind of, it's kind of a reset for yourself emotionally and spiritually,

(46:15):
emotionally, mentally, your mental health is so important these days, right?
So just being in that finding what's the good around you and being gratitude around that
will shift your focus.
And so it's so important to also express that gratitude in terms of appreciation for your
employees in the moment when it's real, to make it real.
And I love that I've been doing a little bit of reading on the power and science of gratitude.

(46:40):
It's amazing when you start reading about it.
I mean, when you think of it naturally, right?
The more you look for positive in your life, the more you'll find.
Exactly.
And it sort of reminds you, like, how much good we all have in our lives.
You know, obviously there are people that don't have easy lives.
And, you know, we should all be pretty thankful that if we do have, you know, even half decent
lives for the gratitude that we have, and it makes a big difference.

(47:02):
And I know when you're being shown gratitude to your team, true gratitude, it makes a big
difference.
They feel way more connected.
They feel like they can work harder for that person because they understand that person
cares.
So I think it's a very powerful tool in life and leadership.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, that's an important point, you know, caring.
You have to care about other people, right?

(47:23):
If you don't, don't be in a leadership role.
You go up to yourself, right?
You got to care about other people and, you know, just flip the script a little bit.
So recall in your life when someone showed a level of appreciation or gratitude to you.
It was something really small, right?
And what difference did that make for you?
John, there's a lot of people stepping into their first leadership role today, right?

(47:47):
They're being thrushed into it.
Maybe they're pretty new to their career or it's the first time it's happening for them.
What is a piece of advice or key focus area for those new leaders that they should be
looking at and working on?
I love that question.
I was in New York leading a retreat recently, last month, with 70 partners and principals.
And it was at the dinner table or lunch, maybe lunchtime.

(48:10):
One of the partners asked me, he was relatively new to the firm and he's leading a particular
segment of the firm business line and he said, what advice do you have?
I write a lot about this and what I just said was, do you know all the people that you're
working for you?
Go spend time with each person individually if you can.

(48:32):
Build relationships with them.
Understand what they're facing and what they're going through, right?
Understand the lay of the land in terms of how things work in that particular service
line.
Don't show up with a bunch of ideas right off the bat.
Listen to everybody.
Listen.
Learn from them.
Then you can make some decisions down the road.
I like to call it like the first 100 days.
You know, like a lot of leaders, some of the first 100 days, we're going to do this, right?

(48:55):
One of my clients recently was stressed into the Manjee Partner role unexpectedly and I
said, let's focus on your first 100 days.
Who do you have a relationship with?
Who do you not have a relationship with?
Because now as the leader, you're not just responsible for your business line.
You're responsible for everybody.
So build relationships in the key roles that you need to build them.

(49:16):
Spend time with them.
Be visible.
Right?
And just listen.
I think it's the biggest piece of advice I can give to anybody.
You know, you're not going to have all the answers and you shouldn't have all the answers.
A lot of times the answers are going to come from the people that work with you, especially
the people that have been doing the day to day for quite some period of time.
They have a lot of knowledge built up and I think that's useful knowledge to learn.
So listen.

(49:37):
Give it some time.
Meet people.
Build relationships and listen entirely.
Great advice.
John, you shared a ton with us today and I've learned so much about you, but I always like
to put in a little bit yet.
Anything in your personal life that you'd like to share with people, I'll say that what
you already have, that they get a better sense of who you are on a day to day basis.
I love that.

(49:57):
I'm a father.
I'm a grandfather.
I'll share real quick.
I had a life event that happened a few years ago where my heart stopped.
It's happened about six years ago.
And my heart stopped and luckily there was someone there who was expert in CPR and saved
my life.
And coming out of that, I survived all that.

(50:17):
No heart damage.
It was like right to stop, but not a heart attack per se, but spend some time reflecting
and some time to recover, right?
About why am I still here?
What's my purpose?
About two years later, I was holding my little baby grandson.
I was about a couple months old and I was holding him in my arms.
I looked down and I said, okay, now I know what my purpose is.

(50:40):
To be here for him, to help him grow up as a man, and also to connect and help continue
to help leaders in the business world as well.
And really just focusing on how can I be the best leader, right?
How can I really live my life to its fullest potential as a leader in a county profession

(51:00):
or whatever profession it might be?
And the little secret is being vulnerable.
I think sometimes we associate a negative with vulnerability, but it's really powerful.
It allows you to open up.
It allows you to listen.
It allows you to grow for the growth mindset, and so I would just say that just connecting

(51:20):
with my purpose as a result in connection with that event really has made a big difference.
And I'm loving what I do now.
I'm reveling in it, and I just love helping leaders be at their best.
Well, thanks for sharing that, John.
I am personally very thankful that it was a positive outcome.
Every interaction I've ever had with you has been extremely positive, and I know I walk

(51:40):
away a better person having spent a little bit of time with you.
I'm very appreciative for everything you do, everything you share, and I know people are
going to enjoy this conversation, so thank you.
Hey, thanks so much, Zane.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you and share some of my life's experiences with you
and your audience.
Perfect.
Thanks, John.
Thank you.
And with that, we ended another project Conversations.

(52:01):
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning and inspiration.
Today we've gained insight from our guests and taken another step towards understanding
the diverse tapestry of leadership in business and county.
Every conversation is a step towards the positive transformation of business leaders.
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to applying your own career and
life.

(52:22):
Don't forget to subscribe to ProYourConversations on YouTube and Spotify, so you never miss an
episode.
We'd also love to hear your thoughts and experiences, so connect with me on social
media channels.
I'm most active on LinkedIn, and I'd love you to join the conversation.
Join us next time for more engaging stories, advice, and conversations like that.
Until then, keep striving for excellence and praise and glory.

(52:43):
Thank you for listening.
Be kind and good-bye for project Conversations.