February 19, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of Protea Conversations, Zane Stevens interviews Ruby Steinberger, an estate planning attorney with a unique and unconventional journey to law.
Ruby shares her early experiences, including the loss of her father and her exposure to trusts, which inspired her to pursue a career in estate planning. She discusses the importance of empathy in her practice, the challenges of attending law school later in life, and her diverse career experiences that shaped her approach to law. Ruby emphasizes that estate planning is an act of love and highlights the need for a compassionate approach to discussing death and legacy. In this conversation, we explore the profound themes of planning for death as an act of love, the entrepreneurial spirit, and the daily life of an attorney. Ruby shares her journey of personal growth, the importance of mindset shifts, and her future aspirations, while also providing valuable advice for new graduates entering the workforce.
Takeaways
- Ruby's journey to law was influenced by personal loss.
- Experiences in life and business shaped her legal career.
- Law school was a fulfilling experience for Ruby.
- Ruby emphasizes empathy in estate planning.
- Estate planning is about love for family.
- Her diverse background informs her legal practice.
- People often underestimate their strength in tough situations.
- Daily routines can significantly impact productivity and mindset.
- Mindset is crucial for overcoming limiting beliefs.
- Abundance mindset leads to greater confidence and opportunities.
- Experiences outside of comfort zones foster personal growth.
Sound Bites
"Estate planning is truly an act of love."
"It's about you, your love for your family."
"Planning for death is an act of love."
"Money is a renewable resource."
"I have an abundance mindset."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Ruby Steinberger
01:38 Ruby's Unconventional Journey to Law
05:00 Life Experiences Shaping Legal Career
13:28 Navigating Law School Later in Life
18:24 Exploring Different Legal Paths
23:43 The Importance of Estate Planning
27:35 Empathy in Estate Planning
30:16 Planning for Death as an Act of Love
31:44 The Entrepreneurial Spirit and Personal Growth
32:46 Day-to-Day Life of a Solo Attorney
36:58 Mindset Shifts and Overcoming Limiting Beliefs
42:18 Future Goals and Aspirations
45:31 Advice for New Graduates
Connect with Ruby:
LinkedIn personal - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruby-steinbrecher-307b525/
Website - https://lawofficeofruby.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Proteon Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting
(00:09):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, St. Stephens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery, from unraveling the unique stories that shaped our guest careers,
to invaluable advice that fueled their success.
We hereby provide you with a simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career and personal
growth.
Whether you're a budding professional or a seasoned executive, these conversations
(00:31):
are designed to offer insight and perspectives that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Proteon Conversations.
Today we're joined by Ruby Steinberger, an extraordinary estate planning attorney based
in Sebastopol, California.
Ruby combines her deep legal expertise in estate planning, trust administration, pro-bent
(00:51):
and small business, and contract law with a refreshingly authentic and compassionate
approach.
With over 15 years of experience, Ruby's journey has been anything but conventional,
from managing Ken Kesley's iconic bus trip to Great Britain to co-founding a legacy cannabis
company and now helping California families protect their legacies and personalize straightforward
legal solutions.
(01:12):
Which is not empowering a client of peace of mind, you'll find Ruby immersed, inner
passions, gardening in Sebastopol, Oasis, surrounded by her family and friends.
Let's dive into a conversation about the intersection of law, legacy, and life.
Ruby, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me, Zane.
What a lovely introduction.
I'm going to have to borrow that.
(01:33):
I'll be sure to send you a copy of it.
Between my research and my friend ChatGPT, we can generally come up with something that
at least gives a small insight into the incredible people that I get to interview.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
So digging into your story, what stood out to me is that it is definitely unconventional
(01:55):
and took a couple of left and right turns before heading towards the world of law.
So can you maybe just give us some insight into those early days and sort of the way
your career was built from an unconventional position?
Absolutely.
And yeah, I guess from the outside it does look unconventional, but this I feel like was
(02:20):
where I was supposed to end up all along.
My uncle was an attorney.
My cousin was an attorney.
So I had early exposure to what that looked like.
And it really wasn't until I was in my early 20s that I really cemented the idea that
(02:41):
this is the path that I'm definitely going to take.
So as you mentioned, I grew up in a very counterculture kind of family and environment, but
my dad basically had come out to the West Coast from growing up in Connecticut and New
York City to a very conventional professional Jewish family.
(03:05):
And he was definitely the black sheep.
It was the late 50s, early 60s, and it was appealing to him, the counterculture, and
that's what he followed and ended up on the West Coast as a result.
But his other family, my uncle and all the folks there on the East Coast, were a really
big part of my upbringing and really obviously influenced me a lot.
(03:29):
And it was actually because of the loss of my dad when I was eight years old.
My grandparents set up a trust for my sister and I to pay for college.
So I had some early exposure and understanding about what trusts were and how it could benefit
beneficiaries and children who lose their parents.
And it wasn't until I was in my early 20s and one of my best friends, her father was
(03:55):
Jerry Garcia.
And when he passed away, it turned into a huge court battle.
And this was the days of a court TV.
This was pre-internet.
And there was a big trial.
Court TV was there and we all went to support them.
And that was when I heard that he had an estate planning attorney.
And there was a trust and it kind of blew my mind because I was so confused.
(04:19):
I thought, if you had a trust, things were simple and easy and streamlined like it was
for me.
But I realized that it was only like that because of my uncle, who was an attorney, who
was the trustee, who was somebody who really cared about me.
And that's what made it seem simple.
But that event, being at that trial is really what inspired me to do this for my career
(04:42):
because I didn't want this to happen to anyone else.
I didn't want my friend to have to be stuck in court and have so much controversy around
their family and the estate.
And so I figured, well, I've got some understanding and knowledge about what this is supposed
to look like.
So I should do something with that.
So that's really what led me on this path and ended up going to law school.
(05:07):
And when I was in law school, I knew that estates, trusts, probate was what I wanted to do.
So I've pretty much been on that path since then.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And what stands out to me from there, like a couple of things, but I want to start with
this one first is that even though you lost your dad early, you sort of had that little
bit of rebellious side inside of you as well.
(05:27):
You know, I was on your website and there's a great paragraph that's titled My Journey.
It really breaks down how you sort of really took a different journey towards the law world.
You went out there, gathered experience in life and in business.
And I'm sure that that set you up to be even more successful as an attorney because you
(05:48):
sort of understand the other side of the world, you know, seeing the other side of business
as well.
But, you know, how did you get into this?
I mean, it says road manager to Ken Kessley's back bank, past trip to Grapewood in 1999,
and resource that a tech startup in 2001.
Recognized for my work with case manager, Casey Family Program, the Disadvantaged Youth
and Foster Care Systems in Oakland and the Wired San Francisco Bay Area in the early
(06:11):
2000s.
Most recently, I weathered the ups and downs of, you know, legal industries, co-founder,
and former CEO of Legacy Cannabis Company.
That is not typical attorney life, not at all, right?
And as an accountant in one of the more boring professions, you know, I have a pretty boring
background and I look at this and a little bit of envy and sort of the excitement that
(06:34):
your early career.
Yeah.
And honestly, it was, you know, it took me, it's only been three years since I hung my
shingle and it took me that long because I had so much interesting stuff happening in
my youth and I really wasn't sure about settling into being a full-time estate planning attorney
(06:56):
because it wasn't cool and sexy and fun looking from the outside.
And but the reality was is that I wouldn't, like you said, I wouldn't have ended up here
without those experiences and they so strongly informed why I'm here and how I do my work
now.
And, you know, the common thread through all of those experiences was helping people.
(07:20):
And that was what, so first off, being the road manager for Keezy and the Prankster,
so my dad, when he came out to the West Coast, he came out because he was friends with Ken
Keezy and he had met Keezy when Keezy and a bunch of counterculture folks were invited
to England by the Beatles.
(07:41):
The Beatles had discovered asset, you know, this is the Sergeant Pepper era and they started
inviting all these counterculture people to hang out with and my dad, who had been on
the East Coast and he went to college in Brooklyn and then joined an ad agency.
But the ad agency, of course, was very alternative in that they were doing, you know, avant-garde
(08:07):
videos and more of the Greenwich Village society that was happening at that time.
And so he was plucked out and invited also to go to England as part of that group.
And that's where he met Ken.
And him and Ken Keezy became good friends and so when they came back to America, Keezy
invited my dad out to Oregon where Keezy's was based.
(08:30):
And that was the start of my dad's new life as part of this counterculture group of folks,
which he fit in just perfectly.
My dad was always in the commercial and film industry and at the time, the pranksters,
they were some of the early folks who always had home video cameras on their bus trips.
(08:53):
And so that was the intersection that brought them together because my dad was, you know,
had some experience in the film industry.
They were very interested in film.
That's where they collaborated.
And so I grew up with Ken Keezy being like an uncle to me.
So me being on that trip was just a kind of a logical next step because especially after
(09:17):
my dad passed away, Ken really kept close touch with me and gave me a lot of attention,
made sure that I was around and participated and included in all of their crazy hijinks
that they continue to do.
And so when they got the offer to go to England with the bus, I was in college at the time
(09:39):
and I said, Oh, perfect.
I could get a minor in arts administration at the University of Oregon by being the quasi
road manager for this trip.
And so that's what we ended up doing.
And it was, you know, it was my family and friends who are all on this trip.
So I was going to do it anyway.
And then I just got to help in a more meaningful way to make that trip happen.
(10:02):
But it really was like herding cats on acid.
So that explains that part and then, you know, then I am after I graduated from University
of Oregon, I moved down to Oakland and I was very interested in social work and helping
people and helping kids especially.
And that is what got me at Casey Family Programs, which was an amazing opportunity.
(10:25):
I was helping foster youth who are in Oakland Unified School District collect their credits
to make sure they could graduate high school.
And I did that for several years.
I really loved that job, but then I just felt, you know, I always had law school in
the back of my mind and time was slipping past quickly.
And I knew that if I didn't make that happen, it would be harder to get there.
(10:47):
So I was actually considering doing an MSW, which is a masters in social work or law school.
And then I realized that law school just gave me more opportunity and options for entrepreneurship
and helping people.
So I felt like it was a really good mix of the two and gave me more platforms for opportunity.
(11:10):
And then, but even before I was in law school, I had taken a job at a tech startup.
This was, you know, 2000, 2001 kind of a, I think that was what was considered second
wave of the tech bubble.
And I was in Oakland in San Francisco.
I wanted to be part of it.
It was happening all around me and HR again was kind of closer to counseling and helping
(11:35):
people.
So it made sense for me and my personality.
And then I was at Casey family programs.
And then it was while I was there that I applied for law school that left that job and went
to law school.
It kind of makes sense for me as who I am as a person in terms of wanting to help people
and kind of just continuing to follow the path of where life was taking me and kind
(12:00):
of where I ended up.
And like I said, I was, I didn't like the idea of going just right away after college
to a big law firm and being chained to a desk.
You know, I was raised with all these crazy people who lived very alternative lifestyles.
Meanwhile, I had these very normal family on the East Coast who were lawyers and social
(12:22):
workers and really making themselves a good life.
So I saw what life was like in the alternative world and I knew I wanted something a little
more stable.
I wanted security.
And so that's what ended up cementing going to law school and deciding to do estate planning.
And again, that came from my early experience of being a beneficiary of a trust and wanting
(12:48):
to help people and continuing to kind of do that social work aspect of what drives me
helping people make their lives better.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Attending law school is difficult.
And attending it later in life, I'm assuming it's even harder.
So how was that challenge entering law school quite a few years after you'd finished your
(13:10):
original qualification, got the work experience and now you had to buckle down and study again?
What was that experience like?
It was awesome, actually.
I don't feel like I really truly applied myself in college.
I went to college because number one, it was required in the trust that my grandma set up.
The trust said I had to go to a four-year college or university or I wouldn't get any
(13:33):
of the money that was left.
And that was really what drove me to go to college right away because my other alternative
was to just go work in the movie business.
And that was very appealing and exciting, but I had this offer on the table, college
will be paid for and you get the money that's left over.
So I went that route.
I did not apply myself.
(13:54):
And so going back to law school was amazing.
When I was in law school, I felt like especially that first year, everyone should receive year
one law school education because it's the most basic elements of human behavior and
entering into contracts and agreements with people and having that understanding of what
(14:19):
that means and how it applies to all people.
So it was the first time that I really wanted to be in school.
It was the first time that I truly applied myself and I got so much out of it because
of that.
And I had to, you know, there was definitely a learning curve in terms of learning how
to be a good student and how to study properly and put in the time.
(14:42):
But I was very intentional about not working while I was in law school so that I could
make that my sole focus and my full time job.
But I really, really enjoyed it.
It was like I said, a little rocky that first semester or so, but I had the privilege of
being able to make that my sole focus and not have, you know, I didn't have kids, I
(15:03):
didn't have another job.
So I really, really enjoyed that whole process.
Yeah, I mean, that obviously is a big advantage that you're able to put the focus in there.
I know a lot of people that go back later, you know, maybe they're juggling, you know,
a job and kids and the education at the same site.
So it was great when you can get focused.
I always found like it was a great privilege for me when I was left high school that I
(15:27):
got to focus purely on my education to get my two qualifications before I had to run
off and get a job and I'd made my life a lot easier and I'm assuming that obviously if
we can all get that privilege, it's great.
It definitely does take a little bit of the burden and pressure on the situation or for
us, which helps us all succeed.
It gives that little bit of opportunity to focus a little bit more clearly on our goals.
(15:48):
Yeah, exactly.
And also, you know, I was, let's see, I was about four years out of undergrad when I
went back to law school.
So while I definitely felt quote, old, because most of the students were four years younger
than me, there was a good amount of people who were older than me even.
So I didn't feel like I was too, too behind in terms of the greater population of the
(16:13):
school.
And I was at Golden Gate University, which is well known for being a school that, you
know, people do night programs or going back to school.
They were well known for that at the time.
Yeah, it was the college I looked at when I first moved here doing some extender work
with when I was trying to decide if I was going to go the accounting route or, you know,
(16:35):
the tax route.
They actually didn't decide to go the tax route.
So I didn't study there.
But what stood out for me is that the demographic was very broad.
There were clearly kids that were just out of high school.
And then there were definitely people that were much older than me as well.
And I thought that was a very interesting environment from a learning standpoint.
Yeah.
And it made it so there was a lot less pressure and you didn't feel like an outsider or a weirdo
(16:59):
because it was just a really good mishmash of people from all sorts of backgrounds, ages,
and demographics.
Yeah, I really enjoyed my time at Golden Gate University and being in San Francisco.
And yeah, it was really great.
I loved it.
Yeah, very good.
You spoke about sort of the story about having your personal trust and your friends, family
(17:19):
trust going to court for probate and how that drove your decision to sort of go into the
practice of law that you do have.
But was there any time when you considered a different path on the legal ladder, there
are so many opportunities in that space?
Or was it always very clear to you that this is where you wanted to be?
No, I absolutely had moments of being unsure.
(17:41):
You know, before I even applied, I was unsure about whether I should get a law degree or
I should pursue being a social worker or therapist or something like that.
And then even after I got my law degree, I did the whole thing where I got a job at a
big firm in the city and we were doing asbestos defense litigation.
(18:02):
But what that did give me was a really solid foundation in just the basics of law, going
to court, law and motion, civil procedure.
And while I knew that that wasn't the area I wanted to pursue, I felt like I needed to
experience it, experience what it's like to work at a big law firm, do the billable hour
(18:23):
thing and have court experience just so that I could say, yes, I did that.
And yes, I'm sure that that's not what I want to pursue.
And then I was also playing with the idea of going into entertainment law because of
my background and the people that I knew.
So I dallyed in that a little while.
(18:43):
But what I realized is that that could be very high stress.
It could be very confrontational.
And it also could potentially require me to move to LA or New York, which at the time
was not appealing to me at all.
I was very happy in the Bay Area.
And then, you know, I mean, I think what I was doing was trying to search for a career
(19:05):
that kind of held on to some of the fun and excitement that came with, you know, the way
I grew up and the people that I was around.
And it just didn't quite work for me.
And then, of course, as you mentioned before, in my bio, I also was in the cannabis industry.
And that was also me trying out something else.
(19:27):
I was COO of that company.
So I wasn't even actually practicing law per se.
But of course, my law degree came in very handy when I was doing that job.
You know, throughout all of those experiences, I knew all along that I just wanted more autonomy
and control of my own career and my own life and my own schedule.
(19:50):
And so after working at the big law firm and then I was at a small law firm and then I
did the COO thing for the cannabis company.
It was when I left the cannabis industry, I really had a, oh my gosh, who am I moment?
Do I really want to keep pursuing the law?
This is my opportunity to pivot and maybe do something completely different.
(20:14):
So I hired a career coach and that was amazing.
I'm so glad I did that.
Just going through the exercise of who am I, what's important to me?
How do I want to spend my time?
What are my goals in life?
I'm really doing that deep evaluation, which is also, you know, it's part therapy, having
(20:34):
a good career coach.
And it brought me back to this.
What I thought I was going to do the whole time and what it brought me back to was not
only should I be doing this full time and I need to just be 100% in my decision, but
it's time to have my own practice and take control of how I want my practice to be run,
(20:58):
how I want to serve clients.
And I just, I think I just wasn't ready before then because I was trying out all these new
things, chasing shiny objects.
And I think it just comes from maturity and wisdom and having all of those life experiences
to inform, wait, it was there all along and I just needed to get through all of this other
(21:23):
stuff, get it out of my system to really be able to get there and be there in a good place
that feels right and feels like I'm actually doing the right thing for myself and for my
clients.
I think it would be interesting, definitely from, you know, looking back at some of the
attorneys that I've spoken to in my past, one of the most interesting careers.
(21:46):
I like the note on the entertainment law, having been in that space a little bit, I know how
pressurized that can be and the types of topics that can come up for those attorneys that
are on business related or anything to do with our contracts, but just situational.
You know, if the thing for me that would keep me out of that space pretty quickly, because
(22:08):
things can get weird very, very fast.
Yeah.
I'm sure it does come with it, but obviously you had the experience with the Keezy trip
and you spoke about, you know, herding with that on acid, which is an interesting metaphor
because somebody has gone through this state planning process and it was all really new
(22:30):
to me.
You know, I've only been in California since 2013, so I never really knew what probate
was and why I needed all the state plans in place, but how to go through the process.
And I realized that one of the strongest points of a state planning journey that you're working
with is their ability, you know, to herd cats.
And I would only imagine that that experience has made you a better attorney because of
(22:51):
that situation of having to pull people in.
And most of the time, a lot of times people don't even want to talk about the work you
do because it reminds them of death and people don't like death.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I do think it has, it really helped a lot in my life experience.
It's also just, I think my personality is built for it in terms of being able to really
(23:13):
engage people and really understand them on a deeper level, which of course helps so
much when I am helping them do their estate plan and talking about what their intentions
are, where they want to go with things.
And then also my experience with losing many loved ones in my life, I lost my dad when
I was eight.
We lost several close family members and friends over a short period of time after that.
(23:38):
And then 20 years ago, I lost my brother, he was one of a few Americans that was lost
in the tsunami in Thailand.
He was in Thailand with his girlfriend.
And I took, I was the personal representative that had to take his estate through probate.
So I saw that firsthand.
And then also just my sense, because I lost my dad so early, my aunt and uncle right away
(24:00):
put me in therapy.
And I have been a lifelong benefactor of therapy.
And that has helped so much in how I'm able to deal with my clients and talking about
death.
And I had so much grief throughout most of my life that again, that was another thing
that I had to get through in order to be able to hang my own shingle and talk about it with
(24:22):
clients every single day without it making me sad or start crying.
I had to get to a point of dealing with my own grief and the tools for that and getting
really to a place of, I don't know if it's like comfortable with the concept of death,
but I definitely have come to a place where my belief is that, you know, as a culture,
(24:46):
we're not very good at death and we should be better at it because it's as inevitable
as birth.
And it is up to us to practice.
And I see estate planning as a way that we practice getting comfortable with this concept
and that it doesn't have to be something that creates so much fear and anxiety in us, which
(25:08):
it did for me for so many years.
And of course, I still have my moments, you know, of little wisps of fear and anxiety,
but I've got the tools now to be able to think about it differently and process it differently.
And I try to bring that to my clients.
One of my big philosophies in my firm is that, you know, death is sad, but it doesn't have
(25:30):
to be something that is depressing and makes it so that it's impossible for you to talk
about it or address it or celebrate the people that you've lost.
And there's no reason why we can't bring joy and levity to that process.
I'm big on bringing humor to the process because what else do we have, right?
(25:52):
Besides in the face of death, all we can do is remember that it's all about love.
That's where the fear is coming from and embrace that and make a funny joke or two in the meantime.
That's really interesting.
And I think, you know, just listening to the way you explain it to your clients are very
likely to have you because it's not always that way, right?
(26:13):
You can sometimes run into attorneys that are very buttoned up.
Let's just get the process done.
Let's take it out.
But what I'm taking away from this is that you're leading with empathy.
I think that makes a big difference for people, especially ones who aren't that comfortable
with the process.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I often have clients who recently I had a client who was a couple and the husband
(26:34):
is the one who initiated the program with me and he told me my wife is very uncomfortable
with talking about death and she gets upset really easily.
And once we had our first conversation and I got a more background on her and had a better
understanding of why, you know, and it was because of her experiences of having a terrible
(26:55):
experience with losing her mom through a big illness and then finally the death.
And, and you know what we do when we're scared is we just shut down and fear and anxiety
comes from the unknown.
And as soon as you face it, as soon as you do it, as soon as you deal with it, then all
of a sudden you are light.
(27:16):
You that big weight on you that is causing so much fear and anxiety is lifted.
And I feel like that is part of my job.
And one of the things I say sometimes is that estate planning is truly an act of love.
And that's where I come from about it.
And that's why I like doing this area of law because as you said at the outset, I have
(27:40):
not had a conventional past.
And that's because I don't see myself as your standard stereotypical attorney who is
all about the law and all about making sure that all of your legal aspects are buttoned
up and that's it and see you goodbye.
Your work is done.
It's so much more than that.
We're human beings.
(28:01):
We're people and especially when you're talking about estate planning, this is your whole
life.
This is your children, your spouse.
This is everything you've worked your whole life for in terms of your estate and your
assets.
And so it has to be about more than just documents and the legal foundation.
It has to be about you, your love for your family.
(28:24):
And we try to imbue that in the process and in the outcome because it's what it's all
about.
We're here for a short period of time living and it's our job to make the best of it and
not live in fear.
Yeah, that puts it such a nice way that planning for death is an act of love and that's the
(28:44):
way you make people's lives easier.
It's a really strong statement.
I really like that.
It is always interesting to me though, the people that have been through the most grief
are the ones that run away from it the most even though they know what happens if you
don't plan for it properly, how much grief it can bring to families.
So it is an interesting sort of conundrum on the effects of a difficult situation and
what it does to people.
(29:06):
Yeah, and you feel like you can only bear so much as a person and that's why you run
away from it.
But oftentimes, you know, people we're a lot stronger than we believe once we're faced
with those situations and those hard tasks.
But what I really love not only about like being able to bring this philosophy to my
(29:29):
clients and to my practice, which is the total opposite side of it is I have always had an
inkling to be an entrepreneur and that really came so much from my brother who I lost in
Thailand when we were young.
When we were young, we would talk endlessly about all these different businesses we could
(29:51):
make and things we could do and real estate that we're going to flip.
And so another part of starting my practice not only is it amazing that I get to serve
the clients the way I want to serve them and bring this alternative way of looking at the
process, but I really love building and running a business.
(30:13):
I'm enjoying that so much.
And you know, you can kind of see it in my history.
That's why I was COO of that company.
That's why I've tried different things because I love starting and growing a business.
And this is the first time that I've had a business that's all mine and there isn't anyone
(30:34):
else who I have to get approval from or get their opinion and I am really loving this
part of it of just like building and growing a business.
Yeah, that's great.
Can you tell us a little bit what it looks like for the day to day of an attorney running
their own business?
Yeah.
So my practice right now, it's just me as an attorney and then I have three staff people
(31:00):
who are in my office.
I have three independent contractors that are all remote, two of whom are in the Philippines,
which has been like an eye-opening, amazing resource that I didn't know about until this
year.
But basically, you know, my day to day, I have a 15-year-old daughter, so that's number
one priority.
So usually I'm up pretty early.
(31:22):
I live on three acres in Sebastopol, so I have chickens and ducks and dogs.
And so every morning, my first thing is I go outside before I look at any screens or
have tea or coffee or anything like that.
That's just something that's always come so naturally to me of just wanting to be outside
instantly when I wake up and I think it makes a really huge difference in how it sets the
(31:46):
tone for my day.
And then, you know, I take my kid to school, I go to the office.
Once a week, I work out with a trainer because I discovered about 10 years ago that I was
never going to work out unless I had to pay for it and didn't want to lose the money and
had someone to hold me accountable.
So that in my schedule is the rock of Gibraltar.
(32:09):
My workouts do not get moved, do not get messed with.
So I usually am in the office, you know, 8.30 or so, do an hour or two of work before I
go to the gym, come back.
I'm really into calendar blocking, which, you know, is just setting specific times of
day for specific activities.
(32:31):
Most of my time is meeting with clients.
That's the bulk of my time that I spend in the office is meeting with clients, whether
it's, you know, just our initial meeting or our design meeting.
I have a very succinct process for my clients and to get them in and ensure that we're going
to get the plan done within a reasonable amount of time.
(32:52):
And then, you know, like Mondays is our big day for my team meetings with my staff, my
marketing meetings.
I do my CFO duties.
That's the day I'm really working on the business.
And then Wednesdays is my networking day.
So I'm part of a BNI group right now.
I do that on Wednesday.
And then I schedule any networking meetings or meeting with referral partners on that
(33:17):
day.
And that pretty much fills the whole day.
Sometimes I'll squeeze in a client meeting.
And then now I'm trying to incorporate every other Friday working from home.
So I do usually do Zoom meetings and things like that.
And then I generally, I think only about two days a week do I work past 5 p.m.
And the rest of the days I'm usually done by 4 or 4.30 so that I can pick up my daughter
(33:42):
from school.
And then, and then it's home time after that.
Now that the days are getting light longer, I'm spending more time in the garden.
And I planted two trees yesterday.
So that was fun because my apple tree had died.
And yeah, just making dinner and doing domestic stuff and hanging out at home.
And so it's gotten to a really good place lately.
(34:03):
Last year was not like this because I was very, very busy still kind of implementing
all the systems and structure for my business.
But what's been huge for my business was I discovered a coaching program over COVID.
It's called New Law Business Model.
And it has helped me on every single aspect of my business in ensuring that I'm building
(34:26):
my business so the business, I run the business, the business doesn't run me.
You know, that's the ideal.
And it's really worked.
It's been amazing.
I'm very coachable here.
So I go to my coaching, I do everything they say and it's like magic and everything is
just happening the way that I planned it out to happen.
(34:48):
And the program is really great because we do a lot of stuff around mindset, do a lot
of stuff around supporting and educating my staff so that they are intrapreneurs within
my business and very independent and motivated.
And it's really wonderful.
I really love it.
That sounds great.
It sounds like you found some really good balance.
(35:09):
And I do love the concept of calendar blocking.
You seem a little bit better at it than I am, but I sort of work in big chunks, spending
my time between me time, family time and work time.
But the concept in general is a great way to get the most out of a day.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it, I mostly, it sounds really good and I generally follow it, but
what I'm still struggling with is that I think that most of my dopamine is still coming
(35:34):
from work.
So that's what I need to change.
You know, I'll still have moments in the evening where, you know, dishes are done, everybody's
done.
I have a book I want to read right now.
So then I'll just go back into my financial blueprints and, you know, tweak around in
there, but it's not because I have to.
It's because I want to.
So I guess it's not so bad.
(35:57):
That's a great place to be.
I always tell people about balance is about spending time where you want to spend the
time, not where you're forced to spend the time.
And understanding that at times, different parts of your life are going to need more
of your time.
So, you know, staying up to date with everybody is important.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Ruby, what has been your biggest challenge in sort of reaching this point of success
(36:19):
in your career?
You know, I would say mindset.
It's all been mindset.
It's about so much about my limiting beliefs about myself or what I thought I could do
or what I had, you know, basing what I'm going to do in the future on what I'd done in the
past.
And I, you know, again, this coaching program has been super helpful in helping me expand
(36:45):
what I believe I can do.
And then also around mindset, around money, you know, we all grow up with certain belief
systems that we inherit from our parents, right?
And I was raised by a broke hippie mom.
So it was really confusing to have this idea of money's a bad thing.
(37:07):
Money's bad, rich people are bad, but we don't have enough money.
And having this constant scarcity mindset.
And so once I did a lot of focused work on that, it really opened everything up.
And one of the things that the coaching program taught me, which blew my mind when I first
heard this, money is a renewable resource.
(37:32):
I still, I still am in wonder on this concept.
But now I actually believe it to be true.
And it has really opened everything up.
And, you know, I don't have a scarcity mindset anymore.
I just don't.
I have an abundance mindset because I know it's just, it's all there.
I just have to position myself to be in the flow of that money.
(37:56):
Yeah.
It is always great advice.
And then, you know, one of the deep parts that sort of follow with that is money is a
renewable resource, but time is not.
Exactly.
Understanding that, you know, money is not a bad thing.
It's something that you need.
And if you've got the money, you'll create time, right?
And that's, you know, important part because it's all about the moment.
And, you know, you know that better than most, especially with the, with the practice of
(38:20):
law that you're dealing with, you're dealing with people's time all the time and what will
look like once their time has come.
So that is, that is great advice and a good way to think about money rather than being
scared of it or demonizing it, which a lot of people, especially who sort of live on
that bright line at times can feel like it's just this evil object.
Probably not the right way to look at it because it just, you know, it creates a terrible
(38:44):
cycle.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It was big.
I mean, it took me until I was 45 to figure that out and break out of that mindset.
I mean, it was like most of my life living that way, even when I was doing well.
It was still this kind of scarcity mindset.
So it's been so liberating and yeah, it just makes my life so much better.
(39:10):
Not only it's not even about like having more money, it's just having the confidence that
the money is there when I need it and, you know, having the agency to be able to make
it happen.
Yeah.
A lot of times it's not feeling guilty for having more money than you're used to, right?
I think that sometimes what people really get caught up on is like, oh, I've got money,
(39:31):
I feel guilty because maybe somebody else doesn't have it or this is not the sort of
lifestyle I was brought up to have.
Exactly the guilt.
You really nailed it.
Like that was what my hangup was for so long is guilt about wanting to make money.
And yeah, I just had to get over that and then I finally did.
It just took a while.
Oh, I'm glad you got past it.
(39:54):
Ruby, what are your goals for your career yourself in the short term?
Well, so right now, you know, I'm three years old.
I'm three years in from hanging my shingle.
So and now I've just passed the one year mark of, you know, first I was in my home office
by myself.
Now I'm in an office.
I have a staff of three.
(40:15):
My plans for the next five years are to continue to grow my business to the point where I have
one, maybe two associates, a couple more staff members, growing the business to the point
so that I am personally only meeting with a handful of clients on a regular basis.
I would like to travel more.
(40:35):
My daughter is going to be in college in a couple of years.
So I'm thinking that, you know, once she's off the college and, you know, she's kind
of whatever settled, whatever that means, that then my husband and I will be able to
start doing some more trips on a more regular basis with my business being set up that way.
(40:56):
And then I'm also, I have another project on the horizon with a friend who is, who does
real estate development, real estate is something that I've always been interested in not being
an agent or anything like that, but it's, it's, I've seen it for myself.
It's the one way that I have built what money I do have is through real estate.
(41:17):
And so I'm really interested in participating in projects for that.
And then I am also, I'm keen to get back to some kind of giving back, whether that's
going to be working with teens again and independent living skills or helping kids or I'm not
sure exactly what that looks like yet, but that's once I'm feeling like, okay, my business
(41:41):
is doing great.
I've got more time on my hand.
You know, it looks like probably some volunteering or working on specific projects, things like
that.
And just, yeah, supporting, I want to be able to help and support my family more, my, my
mom and some other family members.
And I would love to retire my husband so that he could be an awesome house husband.
(42:05):
And he's an artist and he would love to do that full time.
And I would like to support that also.
So those are kind of some of the things that I'm, that I'm working towards.
But, you know, the next five, 10 years is definitely like making is continuing to work
on my business and grow it to a larger firm.
And then one of the key parts about my business too is that I have a succession plan.
(42:29):
But I want that succession plan to be in-house.
I'm hoping that the associate that I find will be my future partner in my law practice
who could ultimately take over when I'm ready to retire.
Right, not surprising from our conversation that you have lots of plans and goals and
I really love it.
Ruby, one last question for today before we finish up there.
(42:51):
But what is the best piece of advice you would give somebody coming out of college entering
the working world to help them be more successful?
That's a tough one.
I mean, you know, everybody's different.
And what I talk about with my clients a lot, like, you know, college is not a one size
fits all solution anymore like it used to be.
But I would say for me, what helps the most was just having a wide variety of experiences.
(43:17):
So taking different kinds of jobs, getting out of your comfort zone is really the best
thing you can do because it's out of your comfort zone when you realize how strong you
really are.
And also it exposes you to things that you would not naturally gravitate towards.
Those are the things that often will surprise you that could lead to the best thing that's
(43:42):
ever happened in your life.
So it's going outside of your comfort zone and trying to get as much life experience
as possible before you settle on that graduate degree because the graduate degree is most
likely what's going to determine your career path.
Yeah, that's great advice.
Go get life experience and you can get that in so many different ways.
(44:02):
But, you know, look for opportunities.
Take them when they come your way.
Maybe try say yes to a few more things in life.
Exactly.
Saying yes more and doing it while you're young because as you know, once you have kids,
once all, you know, we get older and we just, we don't have the same kind of freedom and
options.
So take advantage of it while you're young.
I agree.
(44:23):
Ruby, I really appreciate your time today and I really enjoyed talking to you for protea
conversations.
The way we like to close out interviews is with some rapid fire questions.
If you're ready, I've got five questions for you.
I'm ready.
Great.
What is your dream vacation?
We've been talking about this a lot lately.
(44:45):
It's a tough one.
It's between Japan and Italy.
I've been to Italy.
I haven't been to Japan, but I think if I was to have to decide right today, it would
be a big fat luxury vacation on the Amalfi Coast.
Nice.
Question two, do you prefer audio books or paper books?
Maybe it's been audio books because my eyes are getting worse and worse.
(45:08):
Yep.
That's what it does.
It does help with that one.
Question number three, what is the quality you appreciate and a good friend?
Humor.
A great piece of personality trait always makes the things a lot easier and clearly from a
conversation part of your approach to dealing with people, which I appreciate.
(45:31):
Question four, what is your favorite piece of technology that you use to make your life
better or easier?
That's a tough one.
I really love my aftershocks headphones, but I mean, it's so basic, but it's this stupid
phone.
It's this iPhone.
It's everything.
I wish I could stop looking at it so much.
(45:51):
You're not alone.
Learning is a problem.
Last question, what was your favorite meal when growing up?
This is funny because I remember telling my mom that I hated it so much, but now I look
back and I was like, I was so lucky.
My mom always made fresh pesto.
So she would make chicken breasts and spaghetti with pesto sauce on it.
(46:16):
That was my favorite.
But I remember literally pushing the plate away and being like, this again.
I didn't realize how lucky I was.
Yeah.
And not surprised in growing up.
There was a happy mom that pesto was high up on the menu.
Yep.
Really, I really appreciate your time today.
Thank you for joining our project conversations.
Thank you so much for having me, Zane.
(46:38):
It was a lot of fun chatting with you.
And with that, we ended another project conversations.
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning and inspiration.
Today we've gained insight from our guests and taken another step forward to understanding
the diverse chemistry of leadership and business on account.
Remember, each conversation is a step towards the positive transformation of business leaders.
(46:58):
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to applying your own career in life.
Don't forget to subscribe to our conversations on YouTube and Spotify, so you never miss
another episode.
We'd also love to hear your thoughts and experiences, so connect with me on social
media channels.
I'm both active on LinkedIn and would love you to join the conversation.
Join us next time for more engaging stories, advice and conversations like that.
(47:20):
Until then, keep striving for excellence and racing ground.
Thank you for listening.
Be kind.
Welcome to Proteon Conversations, the podcast where leadership in business and accounting
(00:09):
isn't just discussed, it's explored.
I'm your host, St. Stephens, and thank you for joining me as we delve into the minds of
some of the most influential leaders in the industry.
Our journey is one of discovery, from unraveling the unique stories that shaped our guest careers,
to invaluable advice that fueled their success.
We hereby provide you with a simple, actionable advice to accelerate your career and personal
growth.
Whether you're a budding professional or a seasoned executive, these conversations
(00:31):
are designed to offer insight and perspectives that resonate with everyone.
So tune in, engage, and be inspired as we build better leaders together.
Welcome to Proteon Conversations.
Today we're joined by Ruby Steinberger, an extraordinary estate planning attorney based
in Sebastopol, California.
Ruby combines her deep legal expertise in estate planning, trust administration, pro-bent
(00:51):
and small business, and contract law with a refreshingly authentic and compassionate
approach.
With over 15 years of experience, Ruby's journey has been anything but conventional,
from managing Ken Kesley's iconic bus trip to Great Britain to co-founding a legacy cannabis
company and now helping California families protect their legacies and personalize straightforward
legal solutions.
(01:12):
Which is not empowering a client of peace of mind, you'll find Ruby immersed, inner
passions, gardening in Sebastopol, Oasis, surrounded by her family and friends.
Let's dive into a conversation about the intersection of law, legacy, and life.
Ruby, welcome to the show.
Thanks so much for having me, Zane.
What a lovely introduction.
I'm going to have to borrow that.
(01:33):
I'll be sure to send you a copy of it.
Between my research and my friend ChatGPT, we can generally come up with something that
at least gives a small insight into the incredible people that I get to interview.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
So digging into your story, what stood out to me is that it is definitely unconventional
(01:55):
and took a couple of left and right turns before heading towards the world of law.
So can you maybe just give us some insight into those early days and sort of the way
your career was built from an unconventional position?
Absolutely.
And yeah, I guess from the outside it does look unconventional, but this I feel like was
(02:20):
where I was supposed to end up all along.
My uncle was an attorney.
My cousin was an attorney.
So I had early exposure to what that looked like.
And it really wasn't until I was in my early 20s that I really cemented the idea that
(02:41):
this is the path that I'm definitely going to take.
So as you mentioned, I grew up in a very counterculture kind of family and environment, but
my dad basically had come out to the West Coast from growing up in Connecticut and New
York City to a very conventional professional Jewish family.
(03:05):
And he was definitely the black sheep.
It was the late 50s, early 60s, and it was appealing to him, the counterculture, and
that's what he followed and ended up on the West Coast as a result.
But his other family, my uncle and all the folks there on the East Coast, were a really
big part of my upbringing and really obviously influenced me a lot.
(03:29):
And it was actually because of the loss of my dad when I was eight years old.
My grandparents set up a trust for my sister and I to pay for college.
So I had some early exposure and understanding about what trusts were and how it could benefit
beneficiaries and children who lose their parents.
And it wasn't until I was in my early 20s and one of my best friends, her father was
(03:55):
Jerry Garcia.
And when he passed away, it turned into a huge court battle.
And this was the days of a court TV.
This was pre-internet.
And there was a big trial.
Court TV was there and we all went to support them.
And that was when I heard that he had an estate planning attorney.
And there was a trust and it kind of blew my mind because I was so confused.
(04:19):
I thought, if you had a trust, things were simple and easy and streamlined like it was
for me.
But I realized that it was only like that because of my uncle, who was an attorney, who
was the trustee, who was somebody who really cared about me.
And that's what made it seem simple.
But that event, being at that trial is really what inspired me to do this for my career
(04:42):
because I didn't want this to happen to anyone else.
I didn't want my friend to have to be stuck in court and have so much controversy around
their family and the estate.
And so I figured, well, I've got some understanding and knowledge about what this is supposed
to look like.
So I should do something with that.
So that's really what led me on this path and ended up going to law school.
(05:07):
And when I was in law school, I knew that estates, trusts, probate was what I wanted to do.
So I've pretty much been on that path since then.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
And what stands out to me from there, like a couple of things, but I want to start with
this one first is that even though you lost your dad early, you sort of had that little
bit of rebellious side inside of you as well.
(05:27):
You know, I was on your website and there's a great paragraph that's titled My Journey.
It really breaks down how you sort of really took a different journey towards the law world.
You went out there, gathered experience in life and in business.
And I'm sure that that set you up to be even more successful as an attorney because you
(05:48):
sort of understand the other side of the world, you know, seeing the other side of business
as well.
But, you know, how did you get into this?
I mean, it says road manager to Ken Kessley's back bank, past trip to Grapewood in 1999,
and resource that a tech startup in 2001.
Recognized for my work with case manager, Casey Family Program, the Disadvantaged Youth
and Foster Care Systems in Oakland and the Wired San Francisco Bay Area in the early
(06:11):
2000s.
Most recently, I weathered the ups and downs of, you know, legal industries, co-founder,
and former CEO of Legacy Cannabis Company.
That is not typical attorney life, not at all, right?
And as an accountant in one of the more boring professions, you know, I have a pretty boring
background and I look at this and a little bit of envy and sort of the excitement that
(06:34):
your early career.
Yeah.
And honestly, it was, you know, it took me, it's only been three years since I hung my
shingle and it took me that long because I had so much interesting stuff happening in
my youth and I really wasn't sure about settling into being a full-time estate planning attorney
(06:56):
because it wasn't cool and sexy and fun looking from the outside.
And but the reality was is that I wouldn't, like you said, I wouldn't have ended up here
without those experiences and they so strongly informed why I'm here and how I do my work
now.
And, you know, the common thread through all of those experiences was helping people.
(07:20):
And that was what, so first off, being the road manager for Keezy and the Prankster,
so my dad, when he came out to the West Coast, he came out because he was friends with Ken
Keezy and he had met Keezy when Keezy and a bunch of counterculture folks were invited
to England by the Beatles.
(07:41):
The Beatles had discovered asset, you know, this is the Sergeant Pepper era and they started
inviting all these counterculture people to hang out with and my dad, who had been on
the East Coast and he went to college in Brooklyn and then joined an ad agency.
But the ad agency, of course, was very alternative in that they were doing, you know, avant-garde
(08:07):
videos and more of the Greenwich Village society that was happening at that time.
And so he was plucked out and invited also to go to England as part of that group.
And that's where he met Ken.
And him and Ken Keezy became good friends and so when they came back to America, Keezy
invited my dad out to Oregon where Keezy's was based.
(08:30):
And that was the start of my dad's new life as part of this counterculture group of folks,
which he fit in just perfectly.
My dad was always in the commercial and film industry and at the time, the pranksters,
they were some of the early folks who always had home video cameras on their bus trips.
(08:53):
And so that was the intersection that brought them together because my dad was, you know,
had some experience in the film industry.
They were very interested in film.
That's where they collaborated.
And so I grew up with Ken Keezy being like an uncle to me.
So me being on that trip was just a kind of a logical next step because especially after
(09:17):
my dad passed away, Ken really kept close touch with me and gave me a lot of attention,
made sure that I was around and participated and included in all of their crazy hijinks
that they continue to do.
And so when they got the offer to go to England with the bus, I was in college at the time
(09:39):
and I said, Oh, perfect.
I could get a minor in arts administration at the University of Oregon by being the quasi
road manager for this trip.
And so that's what we ended up doing.
And it was, you know, it was my family and friends who are all on this trip.
So I was going to do it anyway.
And then I just got to help in a more meaningful way to make that trip happen.
(10:02):
But it really was like herding cats on acid.
So that explains that part and then, you know, then I am after I graduated from University
of Oregon, I moved down to Oakland and I was very interested in social work and helping
people and helping kids especially.
And that is what got me at Casey Family Programs, which was an amazing opportunity.
(10:25):
I was helping foster youth who are in Oakland Unified School District collect their credits
to make sure they could graduate high school.
And I did that for several years.
I really loved that job, but then I just felt, you know, I always had law school in
the back of my mind and time was slipping past quickly.
And I knew that if I didn't make that happen, it would be harder to get there.
(10:47):
So I was actually considering doing an MSW, which is a masters in social work or law school.
And then I realized that law school just gave me more opportunity and options for entrepreneurship
and helping people.
So I felt like it was a really good mix of the two and gave me more platforms for opportunity.
(11:10):
And then, but even before I was in law school, I had taken a job at a tech startup.
This was, you know, 2000, 2001 kind of a, I think that was what was considered second
wave of the tech bubble.
And I was in Oakland in San Francisco.
I wanted to be part of it.
It was happening all around me and HR again was kind of closer to counseling and helping
(11:35):
people.
So it made sense for me and my personality.
And then I was at Casey family programs.
And then it was while I was there that I applied for law school that left that job and went
to law school.
It kind of makes sense for me as who I am as a person in terms of wanting to help people
and kind of just continuing to follow the path of where life was taking me and kind
(12:00):
of where I ended up.
And like I said, I was, I didn't like the idea of going just right away after college
to a big law firm and being chained to a desk.
You know, I was raised with all these crazy people who lived very alternative lifestyles.
Meanwhile, I had these very normal family on the East Coast who were lawyers and social
(12:22):
workers and really making themselves a good life.
So I saw what life was like in the alternative world and I knew I wanted something a little
more stable.
I wanted security.
And so that's what ended up cementing going to law school and deciding to do estate planning.
And again, that came from my early experience of being a beneficiary of a trust and wanting
(12:48):
to help people and continuing to kind of do that social work aspect of what drives me
helping people make their lives better.
Yeah, it's so interesting.
Attending law school is difficult.
And attending it later in life, I'm assuming it's even harder.
So how was that challenge entering law school quite a few years after you'd finished your
(13:10):
original qualification, got the work experience and now you had to buckle down and study again?
What was that experience like?
It was awesome, actually.
I don't feel like I really truly applied myself in college.
I went to college because number one, it was required in the trust that my grandma set up.
The trust said I had to go to a four-year college or university or I wouldn't get any
(13:33):
of the money that was left.
And that was really what drove me to go to college right away because my other alternative
was to just go work in the movie business.
And that was very appealing and exciting, but I had this offer on the table, college
will be paid for and you get the money that's left over.
So I went that route.
I did not apply myself.
(13:54):
And so going back to law school was amazing.
When I was in law school, I felt like especially that first year, everyone should receive year
one law school education because it's the most basic elements of human behavior and
entering into contracts and agreements with people and having that understanding of what
(14:19):
that means and how it applies to all people.
So it was the first time that I really wanted to be in school.
It was the first time that I truly applied myself and I got so much out of it because
of that.
And I had to, you know, there was definitely a learning curve in terms of learning how
to be a good student and how to study properly and put in the time.
(14:42):
But I was very intentional about not working while I was in law school so that I could
make that my sole focus and my full time job.
But I really, really enjoyed it.
It was like I said, a little rocky that first semester or so, but I had the privilege of
being able to make that my sole focus and not have, you know, I didn't have kids, I
(15:03):
didn't have another job.
So I really, really enjoyed that whole process.
Yeah, I mean, that obviously is a big advantage that you're able to put the focus in there.
I know a lot of people that go back later, you know, maybe they're juggling, you know,
a job and kids and the education at the same site.
So it was great when you can get focused.
I always found like it was a great privilege for me when I was left high school that I
(15:27):
got to focus purely on my education to get my two qualifications before I had to run
off and get a job and I'd made my life a lot easier and I'm assuming that obviously if
we can all get that privilege, it's great.
It definitely does take a little bit of the burden and pressure on the situation or for
us, which helps us all succeed.
It gives that little bit of opportunity to focus a little bit more clearly on our goals.
(15:48):
Yeah, exactly.
And also, you know, I was, let's see, I was about four years out of undergrad when I
went back to law school.
So while I definitely felt quote, old, because most of the students were four years younger
than me, there was a good amount of people who were older than me even.
So I didn't feel like I was too, too behind in terms of the greater population of the
(16:13):
school.
And I was at Golden Gate University, which is well known for being a school that, you
know, people do night programs or going back to school.
They were well known for that at the time.
Yeah, it was the college I looked at when I first moved here doing some extender work
with when I was trying to decide if I was going to go the accounting route or, you know,
(16:35):
the tax route.
They actually didn't decide to go the tax route.
So I didn't study there.
But what stood out for me is that the demographic was very broad.
There were clearly kids that were just out of high school.
And then there were definitely people that were much older than me as well.
And I thought that was a very interesting environment from a learning standpoint.
Yeah.
And it made it so there was a lot less pressure and you didn't feel like an outsider or a weirdo
(16:59):
because it was just a really good mishmash of people from all sorts of backgrounds, ages,
and demographics.
Yeah, I really enjoyed my time at Golden Gate University and being in San Francisco.
And yeah, it was really great.
I loved it.
Yeah, very good.
You spoke about sort of the story about having your personal trust and your friends, family
(17:19):
trust going to court for probate and how that drove your decision to sort of go into the
practice of law that you do have.
But was there any time when you considered a different path on the legal ladder, there
are so many opportunities in that space?
Or was it always very clear to you that this is where you wanted to be?
No, I absolutely had moments of being unsure.
(17:41):
You know, before I even applied, I was unsure about whether I should get a law degree or
I should pursue being a social worker or therapist or something like that.
And then even after I got my law degree, I did the whole thing where I got a job at a
big firm in the city and we were doing asbestos defense litigation.
(18:02):
But what that did give me was a really solid foundation in just the basics of law, going
to court, law and motion, civil procedure.
And while I knew that that wasn't the area I wanted to pursue, I felt like I needed to
experience it, experience what it's like to work at a big law firm, do the billable hour
(18:23):
thing and have court experience just so that I could say, yes, I did that.
And yes, I'm sure that that's not what I want to pursue.
And then I was also playing with the idea of going into entertainment law because of
my background and the people that I knew.
So I dallyed in that a little while.
(18:43):
But what I realized is that that could be very high stress.
It could be very confrontational.
And it also could potentially require me to move to LA or New York, which at the time
was not appealing to me at all.
I was very happy in the Bay Area.
And then, you know, I mean, I think what I was doing was trying to search for a career
(19:05):
that kind of held on to some of the fun and excitement that came with, you know, the way
I grew up and the people that I was around.
And it just didn't quite work for me.
And then, of course, as you mentioned before, in my bio, I also was in the cannabis industry.
And that was also me trying out something else.
(19:27):
I was COO of that company.
So I wasn't even actually practicing law per se.
But of course, my law degree came in very handy when I was doing that job.
You know, throughout all of those experiences, I knew all along that I just wanted more autonomy
and control of my own career and my own life and my own schedule.
(19:50):
And so after working at the big law firm and then I was at a small law firm and then I
did the COO thing for the cannabis company.
It was when I left the cannabis industry, I really had a, oh my gosh, who am I moment?
Do I really want to keep pursuing the law?
This is my opportunity to pivot and maybe do something completely different.
(20:14):
So I hired a career coach and that was amazing.
I'm so glad I did that.
Just going through the exercise of who am I, what's important to me?
How do I want to spend my time?
What are my goals in life?
I'm really doing that deep evaluation, which is also, you know, it's part therapy, having
(20:34):
a good career coach.
And it brought me back to this.
What I thought I was going to do the whole time and what it brought me back to was not
only should I be doing this full time and I need to just be 100% in my decision, but
it's time to have my own practice and take control of how I want my practice to be run,
(20:58):
how I want to serve clients.
And I just, I think I just wasn't ready before then because I was trying out all these new
things, chasing shiny objects.
And I think it just comes from maturity and wisdom and having all of those life experiences
to inform, wait, it was there all along and I just needed to get through all of this other
(21:23):
stuff, get it out of my system to really be able to get there and be there in a good place
that feels right and feels like I'm actually doing the right thing for myself and for my
clients.
I think it would be interesting, definitely from, you know, looking back at some of the
attorneys that I've spoken to in my past, one of the most interesting careers.
(21:46):
I like the note on the entertainment law, having been in that space a little bit, I know how
pressurized that can be and the types of topics that can come up for those attorneys that
are on business related or anything to do with our contracts, but just situational.
You know, if the thing for me that would keep me out of that space pretty quickly, because
(22:08):
things can get weird very, very fast.
Yeah.
I'm sure it does come with it, but obviously you had the experience with the Keezy trip
and you spoke about, you know, herding with that on acid, which is an interesting metaphor
because somebody has gone through this state planning process and it was all really new
(22:30):
to me.
You know, I've only been in California since 2013, so I never really knew what probate
was and why I needed all the state plans in place, but how to go through the process.
And I realized that one of the strongest points of a state planning journey that you're working
with is their ability, you know, to herd cats.
And I would only imagine that that experience has made you a better attorney because of
(22:51):
that situation of having to pull people in.
And most of the time, a lot of times people don't even want to talk about the work you
do because it reminds them of death and people don't like death.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I do think it has, it really helped a lot in my life experience.
It's also just, I think my personality is built for it in terms of being able to really
(23:13):
engage people and really understand them on a deeper level, which of course helps so
much when I am helping them do their estate plan and talking about what their intentions
are, where they want to go with things.
And then also my experience with losing many loved ones in my life, I lost my dad when
I was eight.
We lost several close family members and friends over a short period of time after that.
(23:38):
And then 20 years ago, I lost my brother, he was one of a few Americans that was lost
in the tsunami in Thailand.
He was in Thailand with his girlfriend.
And I took, I was the personal representative that had to take his estate through probate.
So I saw that firsthand.
And then also just my sense, because I lost my dad so early, my aunt and uncle right away
(24:00):
put me in therapy.
And I have been a lifelong benefactor of therapy.
And that has helped so much in how I'm able to deal with my clients and talking about
death.
And I had so much grief throughout most of my life that again, that was another thing
that I had to get through in order to be able to hang my own shingle and talk about it with
(24:22):
clients every single day without it making me sad or start crying.
I had to get to a point of dealing with my own grief and the tools for that and getting
really to a place of, I don't know if it's like comfortable with the concept of death,
but I definitely have come to a place where my belief is that, you know, as a culture,
(24:46):
we're not very good at death and we should be better at it because it's as inevitable
as birth.
And it is up to us to practice.
And I see estate planning as a way that we practice getting comfortable with this concept
and that it doesn't have to be something that creates so much fear and anxiety in us, which
(25:08):
it did for me for so many years.
And of course, I still have my moments, you know, of little wisps of fear and anxiety,
but I've got the tools now to be able to think about it differently and process it differently.
And I try to bring that to my clients.
One of my big philosophies in my firm is that, you know, death is sad, but it doesn't have
(25:30):
to be something that is depressing and makes it so that it's impossible for you to talk
about it or address it or celebrate the people that you've lost.
And there's no reason why we can't bring joy and levity to that process.
I'm big on bringing humor to the process because what else do we have, right?
(25:52):
Besides in the face of death, all we can do is remember that it's all about love.
That's where the fear is coming from and embrace that and make a funny joke or two in the meantime.
That's really interesting.
And I think, you know, just listening to the way you explain it to your clients are very
likely to have you because it's not always that way, right?
(26:13):
You can sometimes run into attorneys that are very buttoned up.
Let's just get the process done.
Let's take it out.
But what I'm taking away from this is that you're leading with empathy.
I think that makes a big difference for people, especially ones who aren't that comfortable
with the process.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I often have clients who recently I had a client who was a couple and the husband
(26:34):
is the one who initiated the program with me and he told me my wife is very uncomfortable
with talking about death and she gets upset really easily.
And once we had our first conversation and I got a more background on her and had a better
understanding of why, you know, and it was because of her experiences of having a terrible
(26:55):
experience with losing her mom through a big illness and then finally the death.
And, and you know what we do when we're scared is we just shut down and fear and anxiety
comes from the unknown.
And as soon as you face it, as soon as you do it, as soon as you deal with it, then all
of a sudden you are light.
(27:16):
You that big weight on you that is causing so much fear and anxiety is lifted.
And I feel like that is part of my job.
And one of the things I say sometimes is that estate planning is truly an act of love.
And that's where I come from about it.
And that's why I like doing this area of law because as you said at the outset, I have
(27:40):
not had a conventional past.
And that's because I don't see myself as your standard stereotypical attorney who is
all about the law and all about making sure that all of your legal aspects are buttoned
up and that's it and see you goodbye.
Your work is done.
It's so much more than that.
We're human beings.
(28:01):
We're people and especially when you're talking about estate planning, this is your whole
life.
This is your children, your spouse.
This is everything you've worked your whole life for in terms of your estate and your
assets.
And so it has to be about more than just documents and the legal foundation.
It has to be about you, your love for your family.
(28:24):
And we try to imbue that in the process and in the outcome because it's what it's all
about.
We're here for a short period of time living and it's our job to make the best of it and
not live in fear.
Yeah, that puts it such a nice way that planning for death is an act of love and that's the
(28:44):
way you make people's lives easier.
It's a really strong statement.
I really like that.
It is always interesting to me though, the people that have been through the most grief
are the ones that run away from it the most even though they know what happens if you
don't plan for it properly, how much grief it can bring to families.
So it is an interesting sort of conundrum on the effects of a difficult situation and
what it does to people.
(29:06):
Yeah, and you feel like you can only bear so much as a person and that's why you run
away from it.
But oftentimes, you know, people we're a lot stronger than we believe once we're faced
with those situations and those hard tasks.
But what I really love not only about like being able to bring this philosophy to my
(29:29):
clients and to my practice, which is the total opposite side of it is I have always had an
inkling to be an entrepreneur and that really came so much from my brother who I lost in
Thailand when we were young.
When we were young, we would talk endlessly about all these different businesses we could
(29:51):
make and things we could do and real estate that we're going to flip.
And so another part of starting my practice not only is it amazing that I get to serve
the clients the way I want to serve them and bring this alternative way of looking at the
process, but I really love building and running a business.
(30:13):
I'm enjoying that so much.
And you know, you can kind of see it in my history.
That's why I was COO of that company.
That's why I've tried different things because I love starting and growing a business.
And this is the first time that I've had a business that's all mine and there isn't anyone
(30:34):
else who I have to get approval from or get their opinion and I am really loving this
part of it of just like building and growing a business.
Yeah, that's great.
Can you tell us a little bit what it looks like for the day to day of an attorney running
their own business?
Yeah.
So my practice right now, it's just me as an attorney and then I have three staff people
(31:00):
who are in my office.
I have three independent contractors that are all remote, two of whom are in the Philippines,
which has been like an eye-opening, amazing resource that I didn't know about until this
year.
But basically, you know, my day to day, I have a 15-year-old daughter, so that's number
one priority.
So usually I'm up pretty early.
(31:22):
I live on three acres in Sebastopol, so I have chickens and ducks and dogs.
And so every morning, my first thing is I go outside before I look at any screens or
have tea or coffee or anything like that.
That's just something that's always come so naturally to me of just wanting to be outside
instantly when I wake up and I think it makes a really huge difference in how it sets the
(31:46):
tone for my day.
And then, you know, I take my kid to school, I go to the office.
Once a week, I work out with a trainer because I discovered about 10 years ago that I was
never going to work out unless I had to pay for it and didn't want to lose the money and
had someone to hold me accountable.
So that in my schedule is the rock of Gibraltar.
(32:09):
My workouts do not get moved, do not get messed with.
So I usually am in the office, you know, 8.30 or so, do an hour or two of work before I
go to the gym, come back.
I'm really into calendar blocking, which, you know, is just setting specific times of
day for specific activities.
(32:31):
Most of my time is meeting with clients.
That's the bulk of my time that I spend in the office is meeting with clients, whether
it's, you know, just our initial meeting or our design meeting.
I have a very succinct process for my clients and to get them in and ensure that we're going
to get the plan done within a reasonable amount of time.
(32:52):
And then, you know, like Mondays is our big day for my team meetings with my staff, my
marketing meetings.
I do my CFO duties.
That's the day I'm really working on the business.
And then Wednesdays is my networking day.
So I'm part of a BNI group right now.
I do that on Wednesday.
And then I schedule any networking meetings or meeting with referral partners on that
(33:17):
day.
And that pretty much fills the whole day.
Sometimes I'll squeeze in a client meeting.
And then now I'm trying to incorporate every other Friday working from home.
So I do usually do Zoom meetings and things like that.
And then I generally, I think only about two days a week do I work past 5 p.m.
And the rest of the days I'm usually done by 4 or 4.30 so that I can pick up my daughter
(33:42):
from school.
And then, and then it's home time after that.
Now that the days are getting light longer, I'm spending more time in the garden.
And I planted two trees yesterday.
So that was fun because my apple tree had died.
And yeah, just making dinner and doing domestic stuff and hanging out at home.
And so it's gotten to a really good place lately.
(34:03):
Last year was not like this because I was very, very busy still kind of implementing
all the systems and structure for my business.
But what's been huge for my business was I discovered a coaching program over COVID.
It's called New Law Business Model.
And it has helped me on every single aspect of my business in ensuring that I'm building
(34:26):
my business so the business, I run the business, the business doesn't run me.
You know, that's the ideal.
And it's really worked.
It's been amazing.
I'm very coachable here.
So I go to my coaching, I do everything they say and it's like magic and everything is
just happening the way that I planned it out to happen.
(34:48):
And the program is really great because we do a lot of stuff around mindset, do a lot
of stuff around supporting and educating my staff so that they are intrapreneurs within
my business and very independent and motivated.
And it's really wonderful.
I really love it.
That sounds great.
It sounds like you found some really good balance.
(35:09):
And I do love the concept of calendar blocking.
You seem a little bit better at it than I am, but I sort of work in big chunks, spending
my time between me time, family time and work time.
But the concept in general is a great way to get the most out of a day.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it, I mostly, it sounds really good and I generally follow it, but
what I'm still struggling with is that I think that most of my dopamine is still coming
(35:34):
from work.
So that's what I need to change.
You know, I'll still have moments in the evening where, you know, dishes are done, everybody's
done.
I have a book I want to read right now.
So then I'll just go back into my financial blueprints and, you know, tweak around in
there, but it's not because I have to.
It's because I want to.
So I guess it's not so bad.
(35:57):
That's a great place to be.
I always tell people about balance is about spending time where you want to spend the
time, not where you're forced to spend the time.
And understanding that at times, different parts of your life are going to need more
of your time.
So, you know, staying up to date with everybody is important.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Ruby, what has been your biggest challenge in sort of reaching this point of success
(36:19):
in your career?
You know, I would say mindset.
It's all been mindset.
It's about so much about my limiting beliefs about myself or what I thought I could do
or what I had, you know, basing what I'm going to do in the future on what I'd done in the
past.
And I, you know, again, this coaching program has been super helpful in helping me expand
(36:45):
what I believe I can do.
And then also around mindset, around money, you know, we all grow up with certain belief
systems that we inherit from our parents, right?
And I was raised by a broke hippie mom.
So it was really confusing to have this idea of money's a bad thing.
(37:07):
Money's bad, rich people are bad, but we don't have enough money.
And having this constant scarcity mindset.
And so once I did a lot of focused work on that, it really opened everything up.
And one of the things that the coaching program taught me, which blew my mind when I first
heard this, money is a renewable resource.
(37:32):
I still, I still am in wonder on this concept.
But now I actually believe it to be true.
And it has really opened everything up.
And, you know, I don't have a scarcity mindset anymore.
I just don't.
I have an abundance mindset because I know it's just, it's all there.
I just have to position myself to be in the flow of that money.
(37:56):
Yeah.
It is always great advice.
And then, you know, one of the deep parts that sort of follow with that is money is a
renewable resource, but time is not.
Exactly.
Understanding that, you know, money is not a bad thing.
It's something that you need.
And if you've got the money, you'll create time, right?
And that's, you know, important part because it's all about the moment.
And, you know, you know that better than most, especially with the, with the practice of
(38:20):
law that you're dealing with, you're dealing with people's time all the time and what will
look like once their time has come.
So that is, that is great advice and a good way to think about money rather than being
scared of it or demonizing it, which a lot of people, especially who sort of live on
that bright line at times can feel like it's just this evil object.
Probably not the right way to look at it because it just, you know, it creates a terrible
(38:44):
cycle.
Exactly.
Yeah.
It was big.
I mean, it took me until I was 45 to figure that out and break out of that mindset.
I mean, it was like most of my life living that way, even when I was doing well.
It was still this kind of scarcity mindset.
So it's been so liberating and yeah, it just makes my life so much better.
(39:10):
Not only it's not even about like having more money, it's just having the confidence that
the money is there when I need it and, you know, having the agency to be able to make
it happen.
Yeah.
A lot of times it's not feeling guilty for having more money than you're used to, right?
I think that sometimes what people really get caught up on is like, oh, I've got money,
(39:31):
I feel guilty because maybe somebody else doesn't have it or this is not the sort of
lifestyle I was brought up to have.
Exactly the guilt.
You really nailed it.
Like that was what my hangup was for so long is guilt about wanting to make money.
And yeah, I just had to get over that and then I finally did.
It just took a while.
Oh, I'm glad you got past it.
(39:54):
Ruby, what are your goals for your career yourself in the short term?
Well, so right now, you know, I'm three years old.
I'm three years in from hanging my shingle.
So and now I've just passed the one year mark of, you know, first I was in my home office
by myself.
Now I'm in an office.
I have a staff of three.
(40:15):
My plans for the next five years are to continue to grow my business to the point where I have
one, maybe two associates, a couple more staff members, growing the business to the point
so that I am personally only meeting with a handful of clients on a regular basis.
I would like to travel more.
(40:35):
My daughter is going to be in college in a couple of years.
So I'm thinking that, you know, once she's off the college and, you know, she's kind
of whatever settled, whatever that means, that then my husband and I will be able to
start doing some more trips on a more regular basis with my business being set up that way.
(40:56):
And then I'm also, I have another project on the horizon with a friend who is, who does
real estate development, real estate is something that I've always been interested in not being
an agent or anything like that, but it's, it's, I've seen it for myself.
It's the one way that I have built what money I do have is through real estate.
(41:17):
And so I'm really interested in participating in projects for that.
And then I am also, I'm keen to get back to some kind of giving back, whether that's
going to be working with teens again and independent living skills or helping kids or I'm not
sure exactly what that looks like yet, but that's once I'm feeling like, okay, my business
(41:41):
is doing great.
I've got more time on my hand.
You know, it looks like probably some volunteering or working on specific projects, things like
that.
And just, yeah, supporting, I want to be able to help and support my family more, my, my
mom and some other family members.
And I would love to retire my husband so that he could be an awesome house husband.
(42:05):
And he's an artist and he would love to do that full time.
And I would like to support that also.
So those are kind of some of the things that I'm, that I'm working towards.
But, you know, the next five, 10 years is definitely like making is continuing to work
on my business and grow it to a larger firm.
And then one of the key parts about my business too is that I have a succession plan.
(42:29):
But I want that succession plan to be in-house.
I'm hoping that the associate that I find will be my future partner in my law practice
who could ultimately take over when I'm ready to retire.
Right, not surprising from our conversation that you have lots of plans and goals and
I really love it.
Ruby, one last question for today before we finish up there.
(42:51):
But what is the best piece of advice you would give somebody coming out of college entering
the working world to help them be more successful?
That's a tough one.
I mean, you know, everybody's different.
And what I talk about with my clients a lot, like, you know, college is not a one size
fits all solution anymore like it used to be.
But I would say for me, what helps the most was just having a wide variety of experiences.
(43:17):
So taking different kinds of jobs, getting out of your comfort zone is really the best
thing you can do because it's out of your comfort zone when you realize how strong you
really are.
And also it exposes you to things that you would not naturally gravitate towards.
Those are the things that often will surprise you that could lead to the best thing that's
(43:42):
ever happened in your life.
So it's going outside of your comfort zone and trying to get as much life experience
as possible before you settle on that graduate degree because the graduate degree is most
likely what's going to determine your career path.
Yeah, that's great advice.
Go get life experience and you can get that in so many different ways.
(44:02):
But, you know, look for opportunities.
Take them when they come your way.
Maybe try say yes to a few more things in life.
Exactly.
Saying yes more and doing it while you're young because as you know, once you have kids,
once all, you know, we get older and we just, we don't have the same kind of freedom and
options.
So take advantage of it while you're young.
I agree.
(44:23):
Ruby, I really appreciate your time today and I really enjoyed talking to you for protea
conversations.
The way we like to close out interviews is with some rapid fire questions.
If you're ready, I've got five questions for you.
I'm ready.
Great.
What is your dream vacation?
We've been talking about this a lot lately.
(44:45):
It's a tough one.
It's between Japan and Italy.
I've been to Italy.
I haven't been to Japan, but I think if I was to have to decide right today, it would
be a big fat luxury vacation on the Amalfi Coast.
Nice.
Question two, do you prefer audio books or paper books?
Maybe it's been audio books because my eyes are getting worse and worse.
(45:08):
Yep.
That's what it does.
It does help with that one.
Question number three, what is the quality you appreciate and a good friend?
Humor.
A great piece of personality trait always makes the things a lot easier and clearly from a
conversation part of your approach to dealing with people, which I appreciate.
(45:31):
Question four, what is your favorite piece of technology that you use to make your life
better or easier?
That's a tough one.
I really love my aftershocks headphones, but I mean, it's so basic, but it's this stupid
phone.
It's this iPhone.
It's everything.
I wish I could stop looking at it so much.
(45:51):
You're not alone.
Learning is a problem.
Last question, what was your favorite meal when growing up?
This is funny because I remember telling my mom that I hated it so much, but now I look
back and I was like, I was so lucky.
My mom always made fresh pesto.
So she would make chicken breasts and spaghetti with pesto sauce on it.
(46:16):
That was my favorite.
But I remember literally pushing the plate away and being like, this again.
I didn't realize how lucky I was.
Yeah.
And not surprised in growing up.
There was a happy mom that pesto was high up on the menu.
Yep.
Really, I really appreciate your time today.
Thank you for joining our project conversations.
Thank you so much for having me, Zane.
(46:38):
It was a lot of fun chatting with you.
And with that, we ended another project conversations.
Thank you for joining us in this journey of learning and inspiration.
Today we've gained insight from our guests and taken another step forward to understanding
the diverse chemistry of leadership and business on account.
Remember, each conversation is a step towards the positive transformation of business leaders.
(46:58):
We hope our discussion has given you valuable takeaways to applying your own career in life.
Don't forget to subscribe to our conversations on YouTube and Spotify, so you never miss
another episode.
We'd also love to hear your thoughts and experiences, so connect with me on social
media channels.
I'm both active on LinkedIn and would love you to join the conversation.
Join us next time for more engaging stories, advice and conversations like that.
(47:20):
Until then, keep striving for excellence and racing ground.
Thank you for listening.
Be kind.
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