November 7, 2025 • 26 mins
Today’s guest is Dr. Ethan Kross. Ethan is a professor at the University of Michigan and director of the Emotion & Self-Control Laboratory. An award-winning psychologist, he is the author of the bestsellers Chatter and Shift, exploring the science of introspection and emotion regulation to enhance wellbeing and performance.
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Nancy (00:03):
Welcome to PurposeCast..
inspiring stories and science tohelp you live for what matters
most.
PurposeCast is hosted by Dr.
Vic Strecker, world-renownedspeaker and author, professor
and researcher at the Universityof Michigan, and creator of
Purposeful by Kumanu, ascience-backed app for living a
healthier, happier, morepurposeful life.
(00:24):
Today’s guest is Dr.
Ethan Kross.
Ethan is a professor at theUniversity of Michigan and
director of the EmotionSelf-Control Laboratory.
An award-winning psychologist,he is the author of the
bestsellers Chatter and Shift,exploring the science of
introspection and emotionregulation to enhance wellbeing
and performance.
(00:45):
And now—Dr.
Vic Strecker.
Vic (00:47):
Ethan, what a pleasure, what a privilege to have you on.
And it's so incredibly importantto have this right now.
As always, we have a half anhour, so we're gonna try to get
to the point pretty fast.
And one of the big points isthat you have a bestselling book
called"Chatter." And here's whatI love about this book.
You weave stories with realscientific research.
(01:09):
This is a really important areato be discussing right now, and
we couldn't be talking with abetter person in the world on
this.
Tell us about what you've beendoing, with Chatter and tell us
about how we can manage ourinner voice a little bit better,
Ethan.
Well, you know, first of all,it's a delight to be here, Vic.
And Vic, I wanna take you withme wherever I go because you
(01:30):
just captured the essence of thebook and really the, one of the
main reasons I wrote it so, soeloquently.
I think of myself as someone whoreally does research on the
science of self-help, right?
The, the formal term for that is"self-regulation." I study how
people can align their thoughts,feelings, and behaviors with
(01:52):
their goals.
And so what that means is ifyou're motivated to not feel
anxious, to not feel depressed,to not feel angry.
There's a whole set of studiesthat speak to how you can do
that.
And those are the kinds ofstudies we do in my lab.
So to get us started withChatter, maybe let me tell you
what Chatter is.
Chatter refers to getting stuckin a negative cycle of thinking
(02:15):
and feeling.
So we experience adversitythroughout our lives.
We get rejected.
We get dumped.
We experience loss.
And when that happens, we oftendirect our tension inward to
make sense of those experiences.
To search in a very real sensefor purpose, which is part of
the reasons I think we connectso well, and Kumanu connects so
(02:36):
well to the themes of Chatter.
So we go inside to try to findsolutions to our problems,
right?
To make sense of these problemsand who we are.
But as I'm guessing many peoplehave experienced, we don't often
come out of that introspectiveprocess with clear solutions.
Instead, we end up gettingstuck.
We ruminate about the past.
(02:57):
We worry about the future.
We catastrophize.
To use the technical term..
we spin.
That's a joke.
If it was in person, it might,might land better.
But we just, we just keepgetting stuck in these thought
loops that really havedevastating consequences.
And I'm not trying to behyperbolic here.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I've reviewed theliterature.
It's in the book.
(03:17):
When you look at what thenegative implications of chatter
are, they're quite profound.
They basically sync us in thethree domains of life that I
think really make life worthliving.
So, you know, think our jobs,right?
We know that chatter consumesour attention.
When we're stuck in thosenegative thought loops, we can't
think about anything else.
(03:38):
It makes it really hard for usto do our jobs.
World Health Organizationrecently put a price tag on this
over$1 trillion.
That's the cost of anxiety anddepression in the workplace.
Chatter fuels those states, sowe can't do our jobs very well.
We also know that chattercreates friction in our social
relationships because when we'reconsumed with chatter, we often
(03:59):
wanna talk to other people aboutit.
But what ends up happening is wetalk to them and we keep talking
to them over and over and over,and that can have the
unfortunate effect of pushingothers that we care about away
from us.
So social relationship issues.
And then finally.
I promise this will be the thelast harping on the negative
that I do.
But chatter impacts our physicalhealth.
(04:22):
It's not just quote unquote"inour head".
It's not just subjective.
What we know is thatexperiencing stress, that's not
a bad thing.
The ability to experience astress reaction, really useful
response to a threat in ourenvironment.
What makes stress toxic is whenwe experience stress.
Then it remains chronicallyactivated over time.
(04:45):
It's exactly what Chatter does.
'cause we experience an eventand then we keep on replaying it
in our head over and over andover again.
And what happens there, there'sa biological correlate to that.
It keeps our stress responseactive in ways that predict
things like cardiovasculardisease, certain forms of cancer
and other kinds of bugaboos thatare not fun to think about.
(05:06):
So.
Work, relationships, health.
Those are the stakes.
The good news, and then I'llthrow it back to you.
The good news is that numberone, if you experience chatter,
you're not alone.
Welcome to the human condition.
Most people do at times.
I certainly have.
There are some, I thinkhumorous, stories in the book
(05:27):
about my own experiences,amazing stories.
But you know, this is part ofbeing human, right?
And so the neat thing, whatwe've learned is that we have
evolved the capacity not only toexperience chatter.
Also the capacity to manage it,to harness it, to regain control
of our minds, to help us workthrough our problems rather than
(05:49):
get stuck in them.
And there's a boatload of thingsthat people can do.
Science-based tools.
In my book, I talk about 26different ones.
A lot of reason for hope.
This is what I love about yourbook.
You have very, very specifictools about a how to help and
those specific tools are notmade up.
They are science.
(06:09):
It's really important toemphasize, you know, in terms of
physical health, if I break myleg or something, people don't
say, well, that should go awayif you really try hard enough.
You know, I have to go to adoctor, I have to have it fixed.
Whereas when we have theseissues, of emotional and mental
health, you know, so ofteneverybody says, well, you should
(06:30):
be able to just handle that.
You know, somehow willpower willcontrol it, or somehow you're
weak.
I'm sorry.
You know, there are specificthings that are evidence-based
that scientists have spent a lotof time on figuring out that
work.
That's what you put into thisbook, that's what's so
important.
And, you know, as a scientistwho runs a lab, it is, was
(06:51):
exceptionally important to methat everything that went into
the book was science-based.
What knowing about thescience-based, so I, if you, if
you read the book or hear aboutthe strategies, you're gonna
come across a variety ofdifferent kinds of tools.
Some things that you'll readabout will be familiar to you.
Oh, yeah.
I do that.
Now I understand why it worksand how it works.
(07:12):
Mm-hmm.
Other tools that you'll learnabout are things that you've
probably never thought aboutand, but whoa, I didn't know
that that was possible.
Let me try that.
And then the final bucket oftools are gonna consist of
things that practices that youthought weren't good for you,
but actually were, or on theflip side, gimme an example.
(07:33):
What's an example of that?
Well, an example of that wouldbe I just said things that you
thought weren't good for you,but actually are.
Okay.
So coaching yourself through aproblem, using your name.
All right, Ethan, why, you knowwhat's going on?
How are you gonna manage thissituation?
People often, there are these,these stigma attached to people
who refer to themselves usingtheir own name as, yeah,
(07:53):
narcissists and rightself-indulgent, right?
We've done a lot of research onthis.
Technique, we call it distanceself-talk.
We find that's really useful forvery quickly helping people
manage their chatter.
And the way it works is asfollows.
We are much better at coachingother people through their
problems than we are coachingourselves.
(08:16):
To just bring this point home, Ioften like to encourage people
to think about an instance wherea friend or a loved one comes to
you with a problem.
They're experiencing chatterabout it.
They don't know what to do.
They present it to you.
It's clear as day how theyshould respond.
Yeah, you should do this.
It's not happening to you.
I can easily coach you.
What we've learned is that it'spossible for us to coach
(08:37):
ourselves like we were coachinganother person, and you can use
language to help you do it.
Use your own name, and thesecond person pronoun,"you." If
you think about when we usenames and second person
pronouns.
Mm-hmm.
We almost exclusively use thoseparts of speech when we think
about and refer to other people.
So when you use your own name,what that's doing is it's
(08:59):
activating the neural hardwarethat we have for thinking about
others.
But it's about you.
So we find in our studies thatwhen we ask people to tell us
what's streaming through theirhead when they're under stress,
when they're doing it the waythey normally think about their
stress in the first person,they're saying the ugliest
possible things to themselves.
They're saying things tothemselves that they would never
(09:22):
dare say to their friend iftheir friend was in need.
How am I ever gonna deal withthis?
I'm inadequate.
I can't do this.
When we give them their name todo it, they're talking to
themself like they're givingtheir best friend advice.
All right, Ethan, you've donehundreds of talks, you're gonna
do well in this one too.
And so that's one technique.
Lots of science behind it.
(09:42):
Ethan, this is so fun.
Not always on people's radar.
This is so relevant and I'msorry to barge in, but I have
such a personal story aroundthis because when I started
reading your book and learningmore about the data surrounding
this second person talk, Ithought wow, I had that
experience to my right out here,by the way, is Lake Michigan.
Lake Michigan is 87 miles longtill you have to, you know,
(10:06):
kayak 87 miles to get toWisconsin.
I was two miles out 11 years agoand it was just a few months
after my daughter Julia had diedand some of the people who are
listening to this know aboutthat story.
But, I was two miles out and Iwas debating whether to continue
trying to kayak to Wisconsin,which of course I never would've
made.
And, I decided to turn aroundafter this big experience I had
(10:29):
out on the lake and I sat downat our kitchen table, and I was
by myself.
I'd been by myself for a monthand I was really going downhill,
and I just, I, I did not writeabout this specific detail in,
in my book, life on Purpose, butI literally did start looking
down on myself saying,"Vic,you're in trouble.""Vic, you
(10:53):
really need to help yourself.
And Vic, you're a behavioralscientist, don't you help other
people?
You should be able to helpyourself." And myself.
Sitting there at the kitchentable almost looked up at this
other person who is still mesaying, okay, I'm gonna, I'm,
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
And then this other person said,Vic, why don't you write down
the things that matter most toyou in your life?
(11:15):
And I started writing them down.
Literally on a piece of paper.
I pulled a piece of paper out.
This is a totally true story.
I wrote down my family, I wrotedown my students, I wrote down
the things that mattered most.
And then I said, okay, you needto set goals around those and
build a purpose and repurposeyour whole life.
And that self-talk changed mylife.
(11:36):
And when I read about it inChatter, I thought, oh my God, I
didn't know this was actually atechnique.
So, so this is what I find sofascinating about this tool.
And, and first of all, as I'dmentioned before, Vic, I wish I
knew you earlier when I waswriting this book'cause I
would've written about yourstory.
It's an amazing story.
But this is what is fascinatingabout people in general.
(11:58):
We sometimes stumble on thingsthat work.
We do things withoutunderstanding why.
So you're not alone on talkingto yourself as if you were
talking to someone else duringtimes of stress.
This is one kind of distancingtool.
A tool that lets, lets us stepback, think about our
experience, more objectivelythat the human mind has endowed
(12:19):
us with, and that fortunatelyscience has, has really
unearthed.
And what I mean by unearthed.
Experiments have studied howthis technique works.
They've profiled that they'velooked at in the brain, and the
end result is that we can nowtalk about it and the next time
you're experiencing chatter, youdon't have to wait to start
talking to yourself in this way.
(12:40):
You can do it proactively.
People often ask me, Hey Ethan,you just wrote a book on
Chatter.
You've been studying it for 20years.
You ever experienced chatter,and my response is, yeah, you
know, I'm a human.
I experience it at times, right?
What knowing about these toolsallows me to do, though?
It doesn't eliminate chatter.
Life is filled with curve balls.
(13:01):
It's not always possible topredict what's gonna happen.
But what the tools allow me todo is be very deliberate about
how I manage the chatter.
Mm-hmm.
As soon as I catch it bubblingup and I've gotten really good,
as the moment I find myselfbeginning to go into a thought
spiral I instantly intervene andmost of the time I'm able to
(13:22):
suppress it right there.
And that serves great value forme.
And these tools are in yourbook, they are written about,
yes.
And by the way, for the peopleand many people who are in this
audience are using purposefulour application and we are
building these tools into a newQuest.
You're familiar if you're usingpurposeful, hopefully, of
(13:44):
Quests.
These are little mini coursesand there's another quest in
there right now already.
Called"Calm Your Anxious Mind,"and that quest and the new Quest
we're putting in really havemany of your tools in them.
And we've been finding thatpeople with strong purpose
actually use the most effectivetools that you've been bringing
(14:05):
up.
And those tools being mosteffective, they're the ones that
help you with greater emotionalregulation.
You know, it, I mean it's, Ifind that so interesting.
Not surprising, but interestingbecause what we know is that
purpose is this end state thatwe're, many of us are constantly
striving towards.
(14:25):
It's linked with so manybenefits, but the quest to find
purpose is rife with difficultyand challenge.
Yeah.
And so, so oftentimes in oursearch for purpose, particularly
trying to find purpose when badthings happen, we go inside, we
introspect, but we don't comeout on the other side with the
(14:47):
purpose.
Instead, we just, we startruminating.
And that's really where theemotion regulation strategies
are needed.
They are tools that help usachieve that end goal of finding
purpose.
And we've looked at that overthe years.
I am sorry to interrupt.
Yeah.
It, it also seems like thesetools help you become more
purposeful.
(15:07):
So in other words, when you dohave purpose, you're thinking
you have this future orientationin a way you're thinking about a
bigger picture.
You see a silver lining inthings, you know that bad things
will go away, or very often willgo away.
And the slights that you mightget during a day that perturb
you, you just get through that,you see this bigger picture.
(15:28):
So it helps you become morepurposeful in a way and have
greater regulation andhomeostasis of your emotion so
they're not flipping up and downall the time.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah, very much so.
You know, when we experiencechatter, we get stuck.
We zoom in on the problem,tunnel vision, which, and when
we're in that tunnel visionstate, it's harder to see the
(15:50):
bigger picture, which is where Iwould argue purpose resides.
Right?
It's the, it's the broader viewof who we are, our place in this
world, what we're trying toachieve, and when we can anchor
onto that bigger picture thatcan often be really redemptive,
the feelings that arise from it.
Do you think in a way it'salmost like a muscle that could
(16:10):
be strengthened over time so Ican, you know, we work out
obviously to strengthen certainphysical things.
Could we strengthen our abilityto, regulate our emotions?
I hope so.
I mean that's certainly anassumption that guides a lot of
what I do.
The idea that communicating thisinformation to people can really
(16:32):
help them get better at managingtheir emotions.
You know, I find it reallyinteresting that the ability to
manage our emotions, and bymanage our emotions, I should
say i'm not only talking aboutmanaging the low points, the
negative stuff, but also thepositive ones too.
Like how do you savor positiveexperiences and diminish the
negative ones?
(16:53):
This ability, I think, isessential to our day-to-day
functions.
Like most people on a dailybasis are challenged emotionally
in some way.
Given that we know that thereare specific science-based tools
that exist that people can useto manage their emotions, you
would think that we would teachpeople about it earlier in life.
(17:15):
We'd have a system for teachingpeople about it.
And yet we don't, we teachpeople about all sorts of things
in school.
Some of the things we learnedabout in school, we do end up
using on a daily basis.
So, you know, I use math, right?
I compute percentages quite abit.
We don't use other knowledge,like, I don't use the knowledge
of how the digestive systemworks on a daily basis, right.
No one teaches us about, aboutemotions and how to manage them.
(17:37):
And so I think there's, there'sa huge gap there.
And there's an, you know, thehope is that books like Chatter,
the quests of the sort thatKumanu are putting on, that
those can help, fill that gap.
If you wouldn't mind, Vic.
I told, I told people about onetool that might not have been on
their radar.
But that works.
Mm-hmm.
Let me give one example of theflip side to that.
(17:58):
Mm-hmm.
Just, to round things out.
And I don't have much time, butI'm gonna do it as fast as I
can.
So let me tell you about onetool.
Many people think it works.
The science says no, it does it.
And it's called venting oremotional expression.
Many of us think this was trueof me as well before I got into
the science behind this, thatwhen you're experiencing
(18:21):
chatter, when you're spinning,find someone else to talk to and
unload.
Let'em just, just vent youremotions.
There's been a lot of researchon this and what we've learned
is that venting does make twopeople feel more close and
connected.
It strengthens our friendshipbonds.
It feels good to know that thereare people in this world that
(18:43):
care enough about me thatthey're willing to take the time
to learn about my experience andlisten to me.
So venting does make people feelcloser, but if all you do in a
conversation is harp on thenegative, you then leave that
conversation just as upset aswhen you started,'cause you've
reactivated all those thoughtsin your head.
(19:03):
The best kinds of conversationswhen it comes to chatter,
actually do two things.
First, it is important toexpress your feelings to a
certain degree.
The person you're talking toneeds to know what you're going
through and the ability tovalidate your experience and
empathize.
These are very important, but ata certain point in the
conversation, you ideally wantthat person to help broaden your
(19:27):
perspective, help you reframewhat you're going through in
ways that ultimately help younip it in the bud and move on
with your life.
And so that really defines whata good Chatter advisor is.
And I wanted to bring thisinformation to folks here before
we end, because I think it canbe really empowering to know
this for two reasons.
(19:48):
For yourself when you'reexperiencing chatter, knowing
now about what makes the bestkinds of conversations work.
You can be more deliberate aboutwho you seek out.
For chatter support.
I'm really careful about who Igo to, to talk about my chatter.
There are some people, mm-hmm.
Who care a great deal about me.
I don't talk to'em about mychatter'cause all they do is get
(20:09):
me to vent and I leave theconversation just as frazzled.
Amped it up, they amp it up.
There are a couple of people,they're my trusted board.
Board of Chatter advisors, ifyou will.
I consult them regularly.
Yeah.
They're skilled at bothempathizing and broadening my
perspective.
Wow.
So you can think more about whoyou should seek out for help.
(20:31):
On the flip side, knowing aboutthese principles empowers you to
be a better chatter advisor toothers.
So when your loved ones orcolleagues come to you for
support, be sensitive.
Let them talk, but at a certainpoint in the conversation gently
try to nudge them to think aboutthe bigger picture.
Wow.
And there's an art to doingthis.
Some people need to vent alittle bit more than others and
(20:54):
for longer periods of time andso you wanna be sensitive to
that, but mindful of these twodifferent components.
This is super helpful.
We have time for maybe a, aquestion or two.
Taana, do you have any questionsthat have popped up?
Yes.
In fact, related to Chatter,someone has a question about
repeated chatter, regarding badthings that they've done such as
(21:14):
a DUI or stealing or talkingmean to others.
What can someone do to stoprepeated chatter?
Well, I think the two tools thatwe talked about and, the 24
others in the book, are all fairgame.
You know one thing we didn'thave time to mention is that
different tools work fordifferent people in different
situations.
(21:34):
And so my advice to the personwho's asking this question,
thank you for asking it by theway, is to try out different
tools and, see what works foryou, you know?
Try out distant self-talk.
I mean, what would you tell afriend who was struggling with
this repeated chatter over thisDUI.
Right, right.
Like what would you say to them?
You probably wouldn't harp onthe negative.
You'd probably say, Hey, hey,but you know, you're still alive
(21:56):
and you've gotta move on'causeit's behind you and there's a
number of ways you couldcontribute and you know, so
forth and so on.
And so, um, so try the differenttools they are.
Tailor made for helping you dealwith exactly those kinds of
experiences.
You've also found that acocktail of tools helps, and
that's one of your areas ofresearch right now.
(22:18):
Are there combinations of toolsand we're super interested in
that, in Kumanu and learningmore about what you're finding.
Yeah, we did a large study, anationally representative study,
with folks across the country inthe US who were dealing with
COVID anxiety.
And what we wanted to see iswhat predicts people feeling
less anxious on a daily basisover time.
(22:39):
And what we've learned is thatpeople who use healthy
combinations of tools, so peoplewho used three to five different
healthy tools of the sort thatwe talked about today, those
people experience 30% lessanxiety on a daily basis
compared to individuals who usedunhealthy tools.
(22:59):
Unhealthy tools were things likedrinking or venting.
Yes.
Um, or trying to suppress theiremotions.
And so, so, you know, there's noreason to restrict yourself to
doing just one thing.
My advice is to try severalthings.
When I experience chatter, Ihave like.
Four strategies that are mygo-tos.
I use distance self-talk.
(23:20):
I use my Chatter board.
I, I do something called mentaltime travel, which I talk about
in the book.
And I go for walks in greenspaces.
And for me, that's a potentcocktail, non-alcoholic.
That works very well.
The chatter fighting cocktail mywife takes though is very
different.
The strategies that she uses,and I think this is part of the
beauty of the human condition.
(23:41):
We're all different.
We have different fingerprintsand different psychological
fingerprints, if you will, and,and you would therefore expect
different combinations of toolsto work with different people.
Well, if people are usingPurposeful, you'll notice that
we're asking about differentemotions in the morning.
So when you wake up, it'll askhow you're feeling and then
it'll start trying to pinpointthose emotions.
So that's something we're superinterested in.
(24:03):
We're super interested in yourwork and, and, beginning to work
with you much more.
Ethan, I can't thank you enoughfor this time.
And I know these are alwayssuper short, but that's what we
love about them in a way thatthese are brief.
You might be eating your lunchand hanging out and listening to
us have a conversation aboutthis.
Anything you'd like to closewith, Ethan.
(24:24):
This has been so helpful to somany people today.
Well, thanks for having me.
I hope I didn't speak too quick.
I love this stuff.
I think it's fascinating andfundamentally I think there's a
message of hope there, so youknow, to close.
Mm-hmm.
Again, if you experienceChatter, welcome to the human
condition.
There's nothing wrong with you,and I think that's an important
(24:44):
message to convey and, andhopefully you now know what
chatter is.
Knowing what chatter is enablesyou to identify when it happens,
and then just know that thereare lots of things you could do
about the chatter and, given thestakes, I encourage you to check
out the tools through thevarious means you have at your
disposal.
Ethan, thank you so much andthank you to everybody.
(25:04):
We so appreciate your interestin what we're doing.
And, best wishes to everyone.
Best wishes to you, Ethan.
Look forward to many moreconversations down the road.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing right now and the
scientific approach that you'vetaken to really benefit society.
And thanks for your great bookChatter.
Well, right back at you, Vic.
(25:26):
I love the message of Kumanu andthanks for having me on the
show.
So, take care everyone.
Enjoy the rest of your days.
Thanks.
Nancy (25:34):
Thanks for joining us on PurposeCast.
If you liked this conversationabout getting unstuck in a
negative cycle of thinking andfeeling and taming your inner
voice, try Purposeful by Kumanu.
Purposeful helps you connectyour purpose to real actions
that make life richer and morefulfilling.
You can clarify what mattersmost to you, set simple daily
intentions, build habits thatalign with your purpose, and
(25:57):
track how you’re growing overtime.
It’s a science-based...
personal way to feel happier,healthier, and more energized
and live every day with purpose.
Search Purposeful by Kumanu inyour app store or visit
Purposeful.io to learn more.
And be sure to followPurposeCast so you never miss an
episode.
See you soon! And staypurposeful.
Welcome to PurposeCast..
inspiring stories and science tohelp you live for what matters
most.
PurposeCast is hosted by Dr.
Vic Strecker, world-renownedspeaker and author, professor
and researcher at the Universityof Michigan, and creator of
Purposeful by Kumanu, ascience-backed app for living a
healthier, happier, morepurposeful life.
(00:24):
Today’s guest is Dr.
Ethan Kross.
Ethan is a professor at theUniversity of Michigan and
director of the EmotionSelf-Control Laboratory.
An award-winning psychologist,he is the author of the
bestsellers Chatter and Shift,exploring the science of
introspection and emotionregulation to enhance wellbeing
and performance.
(00:45):
And now—Dr.
Vic Strecker.
Vic (00:47):
Ethan, what a pleasure, what a privilege to have you on.
And it's so incredibly importantto have this right now.
As always, we have a half anhour, so we're gonna try to get
to the point pretty fast.
And one of the big points isthat you have a bestselling book
called"Chatter." And here's whatI love about this book.
You weave stories with realscientific research.
(01:09):
This is a really important areato be discussing right now, and
we couldn't be talking with abetter person in the world on
this.
Tell us about what you've beendoing, with Chatter and tell us
about how we can manage ourinner voice a little bit better,
Ethan.
Well, you know, first of all,it's a delight to be here, Vic.
And Vic, I wanna take you withme wherever I go because you
(01:30):
just captured the essence of thebook and really the, one of the
main reasons I wrote it so, soeloquently.
I think of myself as someone whoreally does research on the
science of self-help, right?
The, the formal term for that is"self-regulation." I study how
people can align their thoughts,feelings, and behaviors with
(01:52):
their goals.
And so what that means is ifyou're motivated to not feel
anxious, to not feel depressed,to not feel angry.
There's a whole set of studiesthat speak to how you can do
that.
And those are the kinds ofstudies we do in my lab.
So to get us started withChatter, maybe let me tell you
what Chatter is.
Chatter refers to getting stuckin a negative cycle of thinking
(02:15):
and feeling.
So we experience adversitythroughout our lives.
We get rejected.
We get dumped.
We experience loss.
And when that happens, we oftendirect our tension inward to
make sense of those experiences.
To search in a very real sensefor purpose, which is part of
the reasons I think we connectso well, and Kumanu connects so
(02:36):
well to the themes of Chatter.
So we go inside to try to findsolutions to our problems,
right?
To make sense of these problemsand who we are.
But as I'm guessing many peoplehave experienced, we don't often
come out of that introspectiveprocess with clear solutions.
Instead, we end up gettingstuck.
We ruminate about the past.
(02:57):
We worry about the future.
We catastrophize.
To use the technical term..
we spin.
That's a joke.
If it was in person, it might,might land better.
But we just, we just keepgetting stuck in these thought
loops that really havedevastating consequences.
And I'm not trying to behyperbolic here.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I've reviewed theliterature.
It's in the book.
(03:17):
When you look at what thenegative implications of chatter
are, they're quite profound.
They basically sync us in thethree domains of life that I
think really make life worthliving.
So, you know, think our jobs,right?
We know that chatter consumesour attention.
When we're stuck in thosenegative thought loops, we can't
think about anything else.
(03:38):
It makes it really hard for usto do our jobs.
World Health Organizationrecently put a price tag on this
over$1 trillion.
That's the cost of anxiety anddepression in the workplace.
Chatter fuels those states, sowe can't do our jobs very well.
We also know that chattercreates friction in our social
relationships because when we'reconsumed with chatter, we often
(03:59):
wanna talk to other people aboutit.
But what ends up happening is wetalk to them and we keep talking
to them over and over and over,and that can have the
unfortunate effect of pushingothers that we care about away
from us.
So social relationship issues.
And then finally.
I promise this will be the thelast harping on the negative
that I do.
But chatter impacts our physicalhealth.
(04:22):
It's not just quote unquote"inour head".
It's not just subjective.
What we know is thatexperiencing stress, that's not
a bad thing.
The ability to experience astress reaction, really useful
response to a threat in ourenvironment.
What makes stress toxic is whenwe experience stress.
Then it remains chronicallyactivated over time.
(04:45):
It's exactly what Chatter does.
'cause we experience an eventand then we keep on replaying it
in our head over and over andover again.
And what happens there, there'sa biological correlate to that.
It keeps our stress responseactive in ways that predict
things like cardiovasculardisease, certain forms of cancer
and other kinds of bugaboos thatare not fun to think about.
(05:06):
So.
Work, relationships, health.
Those are the stakes.
The good news, and then I'llthrow it back to you.
The good news is that numberone, if you experience chatter,
you're not alone.
Welcome to the human condition.
Most people do at times.
I certainly have.
There are some, I thinkhumorous, stories in the book
(05:27):
about my own experiences,amazing stories.
But you know, this is part ofbeing human, right?
And so the neat thing, whatwe've learned is that we have
evolved the capacity not only toexperience chatter.
Also the capacity to manage it,to harness it, to regain control
of our minds, to help us workthrough our problems rather than
(05:49):
get stuck in them.
And there's a boatload of thingsthat people can do.
Science-based tools.
In my book, I talk about 26different ones.
A lot of reason for hope.
This is what I love about yourbook.
You have very, very specifictools about a how to help and
those specific tools are notmade up.
They are science.
(06:09):
It's really important toemphasize, you know, in terms of
physical health, if I break myleg or something, people don't
say, well, that should go awayif you really try hard enough.
You know, I have to go to adoctor, I have to have it fixed.
Whereas when we have theseissues, of emotional and mental
health, you know, so ofteneverybody says, well, you should
(06:30):
be able to just handle that.
You know, somehow willpower willcontrol it, or somehow you're
weak.
I'm sorry.
You know, there are specificthings that are evidence-based
that scientists have spent a lotof time on figuring out that
work.
That's what you put into thisbook, that's what's so
important.
And, you know, as a scientistwho runs a lab, it is, was
(06:51):
exceptionally important to methat everything that went into
the book was science-based.
What knowing about thescience-based, so I, if you, if
you read the book or hear aboutthe strategies, you're gonna
come across a variety ofdifferent kinds of tools.
Some things that you'll readabout will be familiar to you.
Oh, yeah.
I do that.
Now I understand why it worksand how it works.
(07:12):
Mm-hmm.
Other tools that you'll learnabout are things that you've
probably never thought aboutand, but whoa, I didn't know
that that was possible.
Let me try that.
And then the final bucket oftools are gonna consist of
things that practices that youthought weren't good for you,
but actually were, or on theflip side, gimme an example.
(07:33):
What's an example of that?
Well, an example of that wouldbe I just said things that you
thought weren't good for you,but actually are.
Okay.
So coaching yourself through aproblem, using your name.
All right, Ethan, why, you knowwhat's going on?
How are you gonna manage thissituation?
People often, there are these,these stigma attached to people
who refer to themselves usingtheir own name as, yeah,
(07:53):
narcissists and rightself-indulgent, right?
We've done a lot of research onthis.
Technique, we call it distanceself-talk.
We find that's really useful forvery quickly helping people
manage their chatter.
And the way it works is asfollows.
We are much better at coachingother people through their
problems than we are coachingourselves.
(08:16):
To just bring this point home, Ioften like to encourage people
to think about an instance wherea friend or a loved one comes to
you with a problem.
They're experiencing chatterabout it.
They don't know what to do.
They present it to you.
It's clear as day how theyshould respond.
Yeah, you should do this.
It's not happening to you.
I can easily coach you.
What we've learned is that it'spossible for us to coach
(08:37):
ourselves like we were coachinganother person, and you can use
language to help you do it.
Use your own name, and thesecond person pronoun,"you." If
you think about when we usenames and second person
pronouns.
Mm-hmm.
We almost exclusively use thoseparts of speech when we think
about and refer to other people.
So when you use your own name,what that's doing is it's
(08:59):
activating the neural hardwarethat we have for thinking about
others.
But it's about you.
So we find in our studies thatwhen we ask people to tell us
what's streaming through theirhead when they're under stress,
when they're doing it the waythey normally think about their
stress in the first person,they're saying the ugliest
possible things to themselves.
They're saying things tothemselves that they would never
(09:22):
dare say to their friend iftheir friend was in need.
How am I ever gonna deal withthis?
I'm inadequate.
I can't do this.
When we give them their name todo it, they're talking to
themself like they're givingtheir best friend advice.
All right, Ethan, you've donehundreds of talks, you're gonna
do well in this one too.
And so that's one technique.
Lots of science behind it.
(09:42):
Ethan, this is so fun.
Not always on people's radar.
This is so relevant and I'msorry to barge in, but I have
such a personal story aroundthis because when I started
reading your book and learningmore about the data surrounding
this second person talk, Ithought wow, I had that
experience to my right out here,by the way, is Lake Michigan.
Lake Michigan is 87 miles longtill you have to, you know,
(10:06):
kayak 87 miles to get toWisconsin.
I was two miles out 11 years agoand it was just a few months
after my daughter Julia had diedand some of the people who are
listening to this know aboutthat story.
But, I was two miles out and Iwas debating whether to continue
trying to kayak to Wisconsin,which of course I never would've
made.
And, I decided to turn aroundafter this big experience I had
(10:29):
out on the lake and I sat downat our kitchen table, and I was
by myself.
I'd been by myself for a monthand I was really going downhill,
and I just, I, I did not writeabout this specific detail in,
in my book, life on Purpose, butI literally did start looking
down on myself saying,"Vic,you're in trouble.""Vic, you
(10:53):
really need to help yourself.
And Vic, you're a behavioralscientist, don't you help other
people?
You should be able to helpyourself." And myself.
Sitting there at the kitchentable almost looked up at this
other person who is still mesaying, okay, I'm gonna, I'm,
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
And then this other person said,Vic, why don't you write down
the things that matter most toyou in your life?
(11:15):
And I started writing them down.
Literally on a piece of paper.
I pulled a piece of paper out.
This is a totally true story.
I wrote down my family, I wrotedown my students, I wrote down
the things that mattered most.
And then I said, okay, you needto set goals around those and
build a purpose and repurposeyour whole life.
And that self-talk changed mylife.
(11:36):
And when I read about it inChatter, I thought, oh my God, I
didn't know this was actually atechnique.
So, so this is what I find sofascinating about this tool.
And, and first of all, as I'dmentioned before, Vic, I wish I
knew you earlier when I waswriting this book'cause I
would've written about yourstory.
It's an amazing story.
But this is what is fascinatingabout people in general.
(11:58):
We sometimes stumble on thingsthat work.
We do things withoutunderstanding why.
So you're not alone on talkingto yourself as if you were
talking to someone else duringtimes of stress.
This is one kind of distancingtool.
A tool that lets, lets us stepback, think about our
experience, more objectivelythat the human mind has endowed
(12:19):
us with, and that fortunatelyscience has, has really
unearthed.
And what I mean by unearthed.
Experiments have studied howthis technique works.
They've profiled that they'velooked at in the brain, and the
end result is that we can nowtalk about it and the next time
you're experiencing chatter, youdon't have to wait to start
talking to yourself in this way.
(12:40):
You can do it proactively.
People often ask me, Hey Ethan,you just wrote a book on
Chatter.
You've been studying it for 20years.
You ever experienced chatter,and my response is, yeah, you
know, I'm a human.
I experience it at times, right?
What knowing about these toolsallows me to do, though?
It doesn't eliminate chatter.
Life is filled with curve balls.
(13:01):
It's not always possible topredict what's gonna happen.
But what the tools allow me todo is be very deliberate about
how I manage the chatter.
Mm-hmm.
As soon as I catch it bubblingup and I've gotten really good,
as the moment I find myselfbeginning to go into a thought
spiral I instantly intervene andmost of the time I'm able to
(13:22):
suppress it right there.
And that serves great value forme.
And these tools are in yourbook, they are written about,
yes.
And by the way, for the peopleand many people who are in this
audience are using purposefulour application and we are
building these tools into a newQuest.
You're familiar if you're usingpurposeful, hopefully, of
(13:44):
Quests.
These are little mini coursesand there's another quest in
there right now already.
Called"Calm Your Anxious Mind,"and that quest and the new Quest
we're putting in really havemany of your tools in them.
And we've been finding thatpeople with strong purpose
actually use the most effectivetools that you've been bringing
(14:05):
up.
And those tools being mosteffective, they're the ones that
help you with greater emotionalregulation.
You know, it, I mean it's, Ifind that so interesting.
Not surprising, but interestingbecause what we know is that
purpose is this end state thatwe're, many of us are constantly
striving towards.
(14:25):
It's linked with so manybenefits, but the quest to find
purpose is rife with difficultyand challenge.
Yeah.
And so, so oftentimes in oursearch for purpose, particularly
trying to find purpose when badthings happen, we go inside, we
introspect, but we don't comeout on the other side with the
(14:47):
purpose.
Instead, we just, we startruminating.
And that's really where theemotion regulation strategies
are needed.
They are tools that help usachieve that end goal of finding
purpose.
And we've looked at that overthe years.
I am sorry to interrupt.
Yeah.
It, it also seems like thesetools help you become more
purposeful.
(15:07):
So in other words, when you dohave purpose, you're thinking
you have this future orientationin a way you're thinking about a
bigger picture.
You see a silver lining inthings, you know that bad things
will go away, or very often willgo away.
And the slights that you mightget during a day that perturb
you, you just get through that,you see this bigger picture.
(15:28):
So it helps you become morepurposeful in a way and have
greater regulation andhomeostasis of your emotion so
they're not flipping up and downall the time.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah, very much so.
You know, when we experiencechatter, we get stuck.
We zoom in on the problem,tunnel vision, which, and when
we're in that tunnel visionstate, it's harder to see the
(15:50):
bigger picture, which is where Iwould argue purpose resides.
Right?
It's the, it's the broader viewof who we are, our place in this
world, what we're trying toachieve, and when we can anchor
onto that bigger picture thatcan often be really redemptive,
the feelings that arise from it.
Do you think in a way it'salmost like a muscle that could
(16:10):
be strengthened over time so Ican, you know, we work out
obviously to strengthen certainphysical things.
Could we strengthen our abilityto, regulate our emotions?
I hope so.
I mean that's certainly anassumption that guides a lot of
what I do.
The idea that communicating thisinformation to people can really
(16:32):
help them get better at managingtheir emotions.
You know, I find it reallyinteresting that the ability to
manage our emotions, and bymanage our emotions, I should
say i'm not only talking aboutmanaging the low points, the
negative stuff, but also thepositive ones too.
Like how do you savor positiveexperiences and diminish the
negative ones?
(16:53):
This ability, I think, isessential to our day-to-day
functions.
Like most people on a dailybasis are challenged emotionally
in some way.
Given that we know that thereare specific science-based tools
that exist that people can useto manage their emotions, you
would think that we would teachpeople about it earlier in life.
(17:15):
We'd have a system for teachingpeople about it.
And yet we don't, we teachpeople about all sorts of things
in school.
Some of the things we learnedabout in school, we do end up
using on a daily basis.
So, you know, I use math, right?
I compute percentages quite abit.
We don't use other knowledge,like, I don't use the knowledge
of how the digestive systemworks on a daily basis, right.
No one teaches us about, aboutemotions and how to manage them.
(17:37):
And so I think there's, there'sa huge gap there.
And there's an, you know, thehope is that books like Chatter,
the quests of the sort thatKumanu are putting on, that
those can help, fill that gap.
If you wouldn't mind, Vic.
I told, I told people about onetool that might not have been on
their radar.
But that works.
Mm-hmm.
Let me give one example of theflip side to that.
(17:58):
Mm-hmm.
Just, to round things out.
And I don't have much time, butI'm gonna do it as fast as I
can.
So let me tell you about onetool.
Many people think it works.
The science says no, it does it.
And it's called venting oremotional expression.
Many of us think this was trueof me as well before I got into
the science behind this, thatwhen you're experiencing
(18:21):
chatter, when you're spinning,find someone else to talk to and
unload.
Let'em just, just vent youremotions.
There's been a lot of researchon this and what we've learned
is that venting does make twopeople feel more close and
connected.
It strengthens our friendshipbonds.
It feels good to know that thereare people in this world that
(18:43):
care enough about me thatthey're willing to take the time
to learn about my experience andlisten to me.
So venting does make people feelcloser, but if all you do in a
conversation is harp on thenegative, you then leave that
conversation just as upset aswhen you started,'cause you've
reactivated all those thoughtsin your head.
(19:03):
The best kinds of conversationswhen it comes to chatter,
actually do two things.
First, it is important toexpress your feelings to a
certain degree.
The person you're talking toneeds to know what you're going
through and the ability tovalidate your experience and
empathize.
These are very important, but ata certain point in the
conversation, you ideally wantthat person to help broaden your
(19:27):
perspective, help you reframewhat you're going through in
ways that ultimately help younip it in the bud and move on
with your life.
And so that really defines whata good Chatter advisor is.
And I wanted to bring thisinformation to folks here before
we end, because I think it canbe really empowering to know
this for two reasons.
(19:48):
For yourself when you'reexperiencing chatter, knowing
now about what makes the bestkinds of conversations work.
You can be more deliberate aboutwho you seek out.
For chatter support.
I'm really careful about who Igo to, to talk about my chatter.
There are some people, mm-hmm.
Who care a great deal about me.
I don't talk to'em about mychatter'cause all they do is get
(20:09):
me to vent and I leave theconversation just as frazzled.
Amped it up, they amp it up.
There are a couple of people,they're my trusted board.
Board of Chatter advisors, ifyou will.
I consult them regularly.
Yeah.
They're skilled at bothempathizing and broadening my
perspective.
Wow.
So you can think more about whoyou should seek out for help.
(20:31):
On the flip side, knowing aboutthese principles empowers you to
be a better chatter advisor toothers.
So when your loved ones orcolleagues come to you for
support, be sensitive.
Let them talk, but at a certainpoint in the conversation gently
try to nudge them to think aboutthe bigger picture.
Wow.
And there's an art to doingthis.
Some people need to vent alittle bit more than others and
(20:54):
for longer periods of time andso you wanna be sensitive to
that, but mindful of these twodifferent components.
This is super helpful.
We have time for maybe a, aquestion or two.
Taana, do you have any questionsthat have popped up?
Yes.
In fact, related to Chatter,someone has a question about
repeated chatter, regarding badthings that they've done such as
(21:14):
a DUI or stealing or talkingmean to others.
What can someone do to stoprepeated chatter?
Well, I think the two tools thatwe talked about and, the 24
others in the book, are all fairgame.
You know one thing we didn'thave time to mention is that
different tools work fordifferent people in different
situations.
(21:34):
And so my advice to the personwho's asking this question,
thank you for asking it by theway, is to try out different
tools and, see what works foryou, you know?
Try out distant self-talk.
I mean, what would you tell afriend who was struggling with
this repeated chatter over thisDUI.
Right, right.
Like what would you say to them?
You probably wouldn't harp onthe negative.
You'd probably say, Hey, hey,but you know, you're still alive
(21:56):
and you've gotta move on'causeit's behind you and there's a
number of ways you couldcontribute and you know, so
forth and so on.
And so, um, so try the differenttools they are.
Tailor made for helping you dealwith exactly those kinds of
experiences.
You've also found that acocktail of tools helps, and
that's one of your areas ofresearch right now.
(22:18):
Are there combinations of toolsand we're super interested in
that, in Kumanu and learningmore about what you're finding.
Yeah, we did a large study, anationally representative study,
with folks across the country inthe US who were dealing with
COVID anxiety.
And what we wanted to see iswhat predicts people feeling
less anxious on a daily basisover time.
(22:39):
And what we've learned is thatpeople who use healthy
combinations of tools, so peoplewho used three to five different
healthy tools of the sort thatwe talked about today, those
people experience 30% lessanxiety on a daily basis
compared to individuals who usedunhealthy tools.
(22:59):
Unhealthy tools were things likedrinking or venting.
Yes.
Um, or trying to suppress theiremotions.
And so, so, you know, there's noreason to restrict yourself to
doing just one thing.
My advice is to try severalthings.
When I experience chatter, Ihave like.
Four strategies that are mygo-tos.
I use distance self-talk.
(23:20):
I use my Chatter board.
I, I do something called mentaltime travel, which I talk about
in the book.
And I go for walks in greenspaces.
And for me, that's a potentcocktail, non-alcoholic.
That works very well.
The chatter fighting cocktail mywife takes though is very
different.
The strategies that she uses,and I think this is part of the
beauty of the human condition.
(23:41):
We're all different.
We have different fingerprintsand different psychological
fingerprints, if you will, and,and you would therefore expect
different combinations of toolsto work with different people.
Well, if people are usingPurposeful, you'll notice that
we're asking about differentemotions in the morning.
So when you wake up, it'll askhow you're feeling and then
it'll start trying to pinpointthose emotions.
So that's something we're superinterested in.
(24:03):
We're super interested in yourwork and, and, beginning to work
with you much more.
Ethan, I can't thank you enoughfor this time.
And I know these are alwayssuper short, but that's what we
love about them in a way thatthese are brief.
You might be eating your lunchand hanging out and listening to
us have a conversation aboutthis.
Anything you'd like to closewith, Ethan.
(24:24):
This has been so helpful to somany people today.
Well, thanks for having me.
I hope I didn't speak too quick.
I love this stuff.
I think it's fascinating andfundamentally I think there's a
message of hope there, so youknow, to close.
Mm-hmm.
Again, if you experienceChatter, welcome to the human
condition.
There's nothing wrong with you,and I think that's an important
(24:44):
message to convey and, andhopefully you now know what
chatter is.
Knowing what chatter is enablesyou to identify when it happens,
and then just know that thereare lots of things you could do
about the chatter and, given thestakes, I encourage you to check
out the tools through thevarious means you have at your
disposal.
Ethan, thank you so much andthank you to everybody.
(25:04):
We so appreciate your interestin what we're doing.
And, best wishes to everyone.
Best wishes to you, Ethan.
Look forward to many moreconversations down the road.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing right now and the
scientific approach that you'vetaken to really benefit society.
And thanks for your great bookChatter.
Well, right back at you, Vic.
(25:26):
I love the message of Kumanu andthanks for having me on the
show.
So, take care everyone.
Enjoy the rest of your days.
Thanks.
Nancy (25:34):
Thanks for joining us on PurposeCast.
If you liked this conversationabout getting unstuck in a
negative cycle of thinking andfeeling and taming your inner
voice, try Purposeful by Kumanu.
Purposeful helps you connectyour purpose to real actions
that make life richer and morefulfilling.
You can clarify what mattersmost to you, set simple daily
intentions, build habits thatalign with your purpose, and
(25:57):
track how you’re growing overtime.
It’s a science-based...
personal way to feel happier,healthier, and more energized
and live every day with purpose.
Search Purposeful by Kumanu inyour app store or visit
Purposeful.io to learn more.
And be sure to followPurposeCast so you never miss an
episode.
See you soon! And staypurposeful.
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