May 7, 2025 • 23 mins
What does it take to keep patients coming back without feeling pushy?
In this episode, we’re back with Dr. Kellen Scantlebury, founder of Fit Club NY. Dr. Kellen has always done things a little differently — and his clinic is a testament to that. This time around, Denzil and Kellen dig into big topics like keeping patients accountable and the small shifts in environment and communication that can turn first-time visitors into long-term clients.
What You’ll Learn
- How to create a clinic environment that encourages rebooking
- What it means to “drive the bus” as a practitioner—and why it matters
- How to creatively expand your services
Guest Bio
Dr. Kellen Scantlebury is the founder of Fit Club NY, a cutting-edge physical therapy clinic in New York specializing in sports rehab, injury prevention, and performance training. With a background in strength training and a passion for redefining clinic culture, Kellen helps active individuals stay at the top of their game.
Resources mentioned
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In this episode, Kellen shares how consistent follow-up builds trust and keeps patients on track. Jane’s Return Visit Reminders make that process easy — automatically nudging patients to book their next visit without adding to your to-do list. It’s a simple way to keep schedules full and care continuous, without feeling too pushy.
Learn more about Return Visit Reminders
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How does that make you feel as a patient?
I'm the patient.
I'm coming to see you.
Aren't you supposed to tell mewhat to do?
And that is tragic.
That is a travesty.
No physical therapist should be, in my opinion, should be
letting the patient drive thebus when it comes to treatments.
The physical therapist shouldcome prepared with a plan every
(00:20):
single time.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to Radio Front Desk by GNAP.
I'm your host, denzel Ford.
In today's episode, we're backwith a familiar face and a
friend of the show, dr KellenScantabury, founder of Fit Club
New York.
Dr Kellen has always donethings a little differently, and
his clinic is living proof.
Things a little differently,and his clinic is living proof.
(00:46):
This time around we're tacklingbig topics like keeping
patients accountable, growingyour network and rebooking
strategies that actually work.
Okay, let's get into it, kellen.
Welcome back to Radio FrontDesk.
How are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm amazing, super excited to be here.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm good.
So the first time we chatted wewere virtual and you were in
New York City and I was here inNorth Van, and now you're here
with me.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Canada's been amazing so far.
Very much looking forward toexploring Vancouver the rest of
the day as well.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I think you're going to have some fun.
So last time you were here wewere talking about your clinic,
Fit Club New York, and this timeI want to kind of do something
a little different.
And then I'm thinking of it aslike a special topic, if you
will, and specifically I'mhoping to talk about how do you
keep clients engaged and comingback.
(01:39):
So let me say a little more onthat.
It's a conversation I washaving with our co-founder and
co-CEO, Allie, and her thoughtwas that if you put more energy
into actually rebooking thepeople that are in your clinic,
it can be more powerful in thoseearly days than marketing.
My first question for you iswhat do you think about when
(01:59):
you're first getting started?
Is it marketing or is itrebooking?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I agree it is.
For me and how I built mybusiness was a thousand percent
rebooking.
It's much easier to work withwhat you have versus always
trying to go out and find newpotential patients or clients.
Someone said it to me it waslike the best way to get new
work is the current work that'son your desk right.
Having great experiences withthe people who are already your
(02:29):
patients, already your clients,already in your community is
super important.
I think when the pressure is onand it's like I have to like see
patients and clients to pay thebills, it can be more stressful
than fun, and a lot of newphysical therapists who might be
starting practices feel thatpressure.
Everything is all good andsweet when you work for someone
(02:51):
else.
You don't really care if yousee two patients or if you see
20 patients because you'regetting paid a salary right.
So maybe there's incentives ifyou see more people, but there's
not a lot of skin in the game.
But when it's your business andyour baby and you see two
patients, you can grow or payyour bills or pay yourself on
just that amount of value.
(03:11):
So rebooking patients is key andone of the ways that I was able
to do that was by having fun,like creating an environment, a
culture inside the clinic wherepeople have a good time, our
clients, they share stories witheach other.
It's not just like all in aprivate room where it's just
like very isolated and onlyyou're talking with the
therapist who's working with you, so you're talking to other
(03:33):
patients, other clients whomight be going through similar
things, might be going throughsimilar experiences in life.
Our patients, our clients.
They don't go home and talkabout oh, you know, dr Kells did
this mobilization technique onmy ankle or my neck.
They go and say, oh, I had agreat time today, I had fun and
I was able to share certainexperiences with other people
who are going through similarsituations.
(03:53):
And that, I think, is just asvaluable as the skills of being
a physical therapist.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, what about?
I'm just thinking of my ownexperience and, like there's
also certain treatments physicaltherapy, for example, isn't
always the most, I don't know.
Sometimes it's painful is whatI'm trying to say.
The treatment is actuallypainful sometimes but if you can
put the fun in there with that,that takes away some of the
(04:22):
pain, takes away some of thehurt.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, when you can share some of that pain with
others, it also helps on themental side.
A lot of what we do is, yes,it's physical therapy, but
there's so much that we do forour patients mentally as well.
I can tell you hundreds of guys, girls, kids who've cried on
our table because of usreleasing things that not just
affect their musculoskeletalsystem, but also what's going on
(04:46):
mentally for them trauma.
So, yeah, it's definitelyimportant to tap into that and
know that again, things may bepainful.
How can we ease that pain forour patients and our clients and
community?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What makes a practitioner that is good at
what you're talking about makingthat environment fun, offering
the treatment, but also gettingpeople back in the door.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I think that's a great question and it's funny
that you asked this because Iwas actually going to put a poll
on Instagram about it, so I'mgoing to do it on this podcast
live Awesome.
So for any physical therapistlistening, I need you to answer
this question who is the betterphysical therapist?
Physical therapist A you have apatient with shoulder pain.
You get them better in fivevisits.
(05:26):
They leave the office and nevercome back.
They had a great experience,they're healed and they have
positive things to say abouttheir time there.
That's physical therapist A.
Physical therapist B same issue.
That person stays with you for25 visits.
They also have an awesomeexperience.
Their plan of care was a lotlonger.
It may have taken a little bitlonger to get there, but they
(05:49):
were able to 5X the amount ofvisits that that person came
into the office.
Who do most people think is thebetter physical therapist?
So I want to get that answer.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Can I guess?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, I would love for you to guess.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
All right, and why I'm really stepping into the
dark here.
Answer.
Can I guess?
Yeah, I would love for you toguess all right.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So, and, and why?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
and why right?
I'm really stepping in the darkhere, kevin but I'm gonna do it
.
I'm gonna do it, take a leap offaith I think the the most
obvious answer might be the b,the, the 25, because if you just
think about it from a businessperspective, like just money,
you got 25 visits versus fivevisits.
So maybe that's the way you'rethinking about it, that you're
(06:26):
going to get more revenue with25 visits.
But I'm actually going to say abecause I think a is gonna and
I think I'm a in the clinicsthat I go to, because what I do
is they fix my problem, and thenI won't shut up about it.
I tell everybody you have to goto this clinic, you have to go
(06:47):
visit whoever.
I thought like they totallyfixed my shoulder.
So that's my, that's mynon-clinic owner,
non-practitioner, just sort ofin your world as I am.
Answer.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So I'm inclined to choose physical therapist B, and
for a multitude of reasons.
So the classic answer in ourworld is it depends, right?
So that's the classic physicaltherapy answer.
But for, as a practice owner,building equity with people over
(07:22):
time is so valuable.
And not to say that you can'tbuild some equity in five visits
, but the personal connectionthat you have over 25 visits at
that point you're friends, youknow, and you're like homies.
You know you want to get drinkswith your physical therapist
after I don't indulge that,please, anyone don't do that but
(07:44):
the equity that you built withthem.
Another saying that I alwaystell my team is for every one
patient that you have, thatshould lead to two or three more
patients just from giving thema great experience, right?
Yeah, and I think, specifically, a lot of newer physical
therapists associate physicaltherapy with pain relief.
And yes, we can reduce pain inthe first four to five visits.
(08:04):
But we're not just pain reliefdoctors, right, you can get that
through Tylenol, you can getthat through medicine.
What we're trying to helppeople do is move more
efficiently, build strength,build endurance and reduce the
rate of re-injury, and I justthink it's very hard to achieve
that as a clinician in only fivevisits.
I think we can definitely getrid of pain in five visits.
(08:26):
But then doing the other things, I think that takes a little
bit more time and a little bitmore equity.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm going to keep on this and caveat my answer.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Let's do it I don't like to not get a good grade,
but I notice when I'm hearingyou talk about the 25 sessions
that I'm maybe somewhere in themiddle because I'll do the five
or whatever, where I get betterfor that issue or that round,
and then I go back because itgets aggravated again or because
I push a little too hard andwhatever happens happens Right.
(08:56):
So I think it might be likesome version of a hybrid between
those two, where I am gettingmy problem solved and then I do
get back, problem solved andthen I do get back in the gym
and I do get back into myactivities.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Um, but then life happens and then I need to go
back but but what you hit onsomething there you said, things
pop up and they come back,right.
So that, I think, goes a littlebit to my point where we want
to help people to get to thepoint where these things don't
come back.
I think we leave a lot on thetable when we discharge five
visits because, again, buildingthe strength, building their
(09:29):
endurance, building the mobilitypatterns, teaching people how
to, basically relearning how tomove, so that these things don't
come back, right?
I think that is a key piece andit just it doesn't get spoken
about to patients enough fromphysical therapists.
I think owners think about that,or maybe not every owner thinks
about it, but I would envisionpeople who've been practicing
(09:51):
for a longer time think aboutthat because they have had
patients who they've seen infive visits who've come back for
the same injuries.
So it's like, hey, listen, Iknow your pain is diminished,
you have zero pain right now,but I'm still seeing these one
or two factors that for me, as askilled clinician, I think can
lead to re-injury.
Let's work another five to sixsessions specifically on this so
(10:14):
that these things don't comeback, and then maybe if you need
to come back, you know, once amonth, once every three weeks,
as a little check-in to makesure that these things aren't
coming back.
We can do that.
It's having those conversationswith patients.
That I think is super helpful,super fruitful, and I just don't
think enough physicaltherapists are actually having
this sit down right at the endof a session.
(10:35):
There's a lot of hidden gems injust communication with our
patients and our communities.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, I think it applies to all the disciplines
that would be listening to thisas well, hey there, christina,
here Just a quick moment toshare that this episode is
brought to you by Jane.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
We know how much heart you put into building a
practice you're proud of, andthat's why we're here to make
things like scheduling, chartingand payments run a little
smoother.
If you'd like to take a peekhead to janeapp forward, slash
pricing, because we love a goodbonus don't forget to use the
code radiofrontdask for aone-month grace period.
Okay, I'll keep it short andsweet.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Back to the episode.
This sort of brings me tothinking about the resource that
you created for us yourplaybook, if you will.
I just love it so much.
There's so many great tips thatyou gave to people and we'll
link that in the show notes foreverybody who's listening.
But the thing I want to talkabout that's related to this
conversation is in it you sayrealize that you drive the bus,
and this is something that Italked to our co-founder and
(11:32):
co-CEO, allie.
A lot about is like how that'swhat makes a good practitioner
is realizing and havingstrategies for actually driving
the bus with patients.
In her case, she feels itbecause she has three kids and
you know she's like if you giveme exercises to take home, I'm
not going to do them.
If you rebook me, I'll come andwe'll do them.
So she's making a prettyprovocative point that like,
(11:55):
literally the course of like,finding the health that you're
seeking is only throughrebooking in some cases.
But I wonder what you thinkabout that.
Can you say more on what youput into the playbook about the
practitioner really driving thebus?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, so I'll give another.
For instance, let's just sayyou're a patient and you go to a
physical therapist and you havelow back pain.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I do have that you do Most people do.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And you're like.
The therapist asks well, whatdo you want to do today?
Yeah, how does that make youfeel as a patient?
Like I'm the patient I'm comingto see you.
Aren't you supposed to tell mewhat to do?
And that is tragic, that is atravesty.
No physical therapist should be,in my opinion, should be
letting the patient drive thebus.
When it comes to treatments,the physical therapist should
(12:45):
come prepared with a plan everysingle time Eval, follow-up,
progress note, discharge, visitevery single time you should
have a plan and the patient maycome in and say oh well, I was
coming in from my bag, but myknee hurts today, okay, revert,
different plan, right.
But always have something inmind and again, I think this is
(13:06):
a lot with the newer physicaltherapists it's these
patient-led treatments, askingthe patient what they want to do
today.
And, yes, the patient should beinvolved.
It's a team, but every team hasa captain and the physical
therapist needs to be thatcaptain driving the bus.
As skilled physical therapists,skilled medical professionals,
(13:26):
we need to be captains of theplans of care and I think too
many people are being bystandersto that plan of care versus
driving that bus.
But you also touched base onhome exercises, and I think that
that is also a very importanttopic.
A lot of people needaccountability, and that again
(13:49):
goes back to the five visits orthe 25 visits.
Everyone on earth can look upon YouTube exercises for low
back pain.
That information is there.
Everyone on earth can look upexercises on YouTube for how to
rehab an ankle injury.
That information is there.
Are they doing it?
Is the question right?
(14:10):
So humans need accountability,right?
There's so many people who sayI just need, I need to have it
on my schedule, I need to showup and I need someone expecting
me to be there for me to do that.
There's so many people who fallinto that category and those
are the majority of people whoare coming into the offices, the
people who can do it on theirown.
They are.
They're not coming into ouroffices, right?
(14:32):
So I think understanding thatis super vital.
Like if someone's coming intoyour office looking for you, for
your help, help them direct thebus, give them a full plan and
if they want to deviate fromthat plan, educate them on why
they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Is there anything else that's important to what
you said at the beginning?
Leveraging who's already withyou, like tactical things, like
how someone would set up theirschedule.
Or do you have to worry aboutthat in New York City?
Like offering appointments inthe evenings and the weekends.
Is there other things like thatthat matter?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, a thousand percent.
There's some people who arecurrently on your schedule right
now who are super connectorsRight and those are people that
can connect you to 10, 12 newpatients Right.
There's people on your scheduleright now who are mild
connectors, who can connect youto two to five new patients the
patients that you have.
(15:29):
That's your lifeline.
It's so much harder and ittakes so much more money and
effort to get new patients inthe door versus nurturing the
patients that you currently have.
Make them feel whole, make themfeel at home, make them feel
that they're the most importantvisit of the day and I guarantee
you'll start to have morevisits on your schedule.
(15:51):
You mentioned marketing.
Marketing is just a lot ofspent money.
You know you got to spend moneyon a coordinator, you got to
spend money on ads, you got tospend money on SEO, and that's a
lot of resources out the door.
So you want to make sure thathome base is sort of fulfilled
first and that's just by makingsure that again you're giving a
(16:11):
kick ass service to the peopleyou already have, because your
clinics aren't just physicaltherapy clinics.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You offer all kinds of services, so could you talk
about the role of theseadditional services that you
offer and how you think thatplays into this idea of getting
people back in?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So when I started Fit Club, it was never with the
idea of just being a physicaltherapy clinic.
I always wanted to help peoplebridge that gap between physical
therapy and fitness.
And as we started to grow andgrow and grow again, I was
tapping into my patients and thecommunities that we lived in.
Being in the communities, beingin the groups on Facebook hey,
(16:53):
I really wish we had a pelvicfloor physical therapist here in
this neighborhood.
Like, there's so many youngfamilies here Really wish that
we had kids fitness classesright.
So being in tune to thecommunities is important,
because then you hear certainpeople say the same things over
and over and, over and overagain and you just think like,
hey, I have those skills, thisis something that I'm passionate
(17:14):
about, this is something that Ilike doing and this is a need
for my community.
Let's match that passion withthe need.
So that's how a lot of theservices that we provide that's
how they were born was bylistening to our community and
also understanding my innatestrengths and the strengths of
my team, which we outlined inthat playbook.
(17:34):
There it's not work, it's fun.
And again, when you're havingfun, so are your patients,
because, yeah, physical therapyis a part of life.
Not everyone's going to be hurtfor their entire life, but
people want to be fit andhealthy for their entire life.
And again, I don't want to leaveanything on the table by just
(17:55):
offering them a portion of whatI can really offer them in their
full lifespan.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, you also have a corporate wellness program.
Can you describe that a littlebit?
Really offer them in their fulllifespan?
Yeah, you also have a corporatewellness program.
Can you describe that a littlebit?
I think it's a little bitdifferent than what we're
talking about here.
How did you decide on that oneand what is it structured like?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah.
So again, just knowing thenature of New York City, how
many different businesses are inour quote unquote playground,
and also knowing the macroenvironment specifically after
COVID, businesses started to puta bigger emphasis on employee
wellness, making sure that theiremployees were healthy, for me
(18:35):
it was low hanging fruit to comeup with different programs,
whether it was on-site yoga,on-site health fairs, ergonomic
setup, personal training incertain offices that have gyms.
It was, again just knowing NewYork City and the amount of
businesses that are there andthe amount of profit that they
(18:56):
have, and knowing how budgetswork, I know they're allocating
a certain amount of funds forthe health and wellness of their
employees.
So once that became moreapparent to me, it just made
complete sense to also servicethat community.
Another note is, again, theseclients and employees are the
ones with the health insuranceright.
(19:16):
So it's just like a lot offactors that just like made
complete sense for me.
Again, I don't want to leaveanything on the table.
It is so hard to grow abusiness in New York City and
the whole build it and they willcome is dead Like no one's
coming if you don't promoteyourself, change, evolve.
Mcdonald's would have been dead.
Apple would have is dead, likeno one's coming.
(19:36):
If you don't promote yourself,change, evolve.
Mcdonald's would have been dead.
Apple would have been dead.
All of these companies wouldhave been dead if they didn't
change and evolve with the times.
So for me, it was again superimportant to be nimble and able
to move where the trends weremoving.
So corporate wellness is a partof that.
We've been able to work withsome financial service companies
(19:57):
and it's been really fruitful.
They've gotten a ton of valuefrom a wellness perspective,
from a reduction in burnout andimproving employee satisfaction,
and we've been able to meetmore people, help more people
and get paid for the servicesthat we've been able to provide
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So let's just get a little bit more broad, help more
people and get paid for theservices that we've been able to
provide Very cool.
So let's just get a little bitmore broad and just talk about
the industry in general.
This is just like an open endedquestion.
I don't have any idea whereyou're going to go with it, but
I just wonder how do you see theindustry evolving from here,
and are there any trends justgenerally in healthcare that you
think people would beinterested in?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
in healthcare that you think people would be
interested in.
I think we're in a unique time.
I'll say it that way.
I think there's a lot of bigplayers out there who are at
this point so big they're almostlike unstoppable, and that is a
good and bad thing for me.
(20:54):
I'll explain why.
I think that that's goodbecause they're not going to be
able to win in the customerservice, the quality, the
experience, because it's justmanufactured at this point.
It's cookie cutter.
It's every patient with thispoint it's cookie cutter.
It's every patient with thisgets that.
Every patient with this getsthat.
And it's patients are more of anumber than an individual right
(21:16):
, but there's a lot of moneysupporting them, a lot of
private equity supporting thesecompanies.
So a lot of smaller businessesare feeling that pressure of
having to make rent, makepayroll, and it's tough because
those are the ones who arereally trying to win at the
quality game versus the quantitygame.
I unfortunately see the bigguys just getting bigger and
(21:40):
bigger and bigger because theycan withstand losses for longer
periods of time, other than thesmaller mom-and-pop shops.
So I think that will continue,but I do think the smaller mom
and pop shops that can withstandthis sort of turbulent time and
make it through to the otherside, will have a real, unique
opportunity to grow to levelsthat they never thought was
(22:03):
possible.
My hope and dreams are that thesmaller companies that are
providing kick-ass services makeit through this tough time For
anyone listening who is feelingthe pressure.
(22:23):
My wish and hopes for you isjust to keep going.
Don't stop.
You never know when you'reright on the other side of a
breakthrough.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Thank you so much for being here, Kellen, I mean this
has been amazing.
You've given us so manyinsights for our listeners, so
it's been great having you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Thank you for having me and again check out that
playbook.
There's a bunch of free,helpful tips and tricks for all
therapists out there.
Make sure you check that out.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you for the plug.
I was supposed to do that.
Do my job for me.
I love it.
Thanks for tuning in to RadioFront Desk.
If you found this episodehelpful, it would mean so much
to me if you gave it a ratingand leave a review letting me
know what you think.
And if you're a fan, you cansubscribe to Radio Front Desk on
Apple Music, spotify andwherever you get your podcasts.
How does that make you feel as a patient?
I'm the patient.
I'm coming to see you.
Aren't you supposed to tell mewhat to do?
And that is tragic.
That is a travesty.
No physical therapist should be, in my opinion, should be
letting the patient drive thebus when it comes to treatments.
The physical therapist shouldcome prepared with a plan every
(00:20):
single time.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome back to Radio Front Desk by GNAP.
I'm your host, denzel Ford.
In today's episode, we're backwith a familiar face and a
friend of the show, dr KellenScantabury, founder of Fit Club
New York.
Dr Kellen has always donethings a little differently, and
his clinic is living proof.
Things a little differently,and his clinic is living proof.
(00:46):
This time around we're tacklingbig topics like keeping
patients accountable, growingyour network and rebooking
strategies that actually work.
Okay, let's get into it, kellen.
Welcome back to Radio FrontDesk.
How are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I'm amazing, super excited to be here.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm good.
So the first time we chatted wewere virtual and you were in
New York City and I was here inNorth Van, and now you're here
with me.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Canada's been amazing so far.
Very much looking forward toexploring Vancouver the rest of
the day as well.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I think you're going to have some fun.
So last time you were here wewere talking about your clinic,
Fit Club New York, and this timeI want to kind of do something
a little different.
And then I'm thinking of it aslike a special topic, if you
will, and specifically I'mhoping to talk about how do you
keep clients engaged and comingback.
(01:39):
So let me say a little more onthat.
It's a conversation I washaving with our co-founder and
co-CEO, Allie, and her thoughtwas that if you put more energy
into actually rebooking thepeople that are in your clinic,
it can be more powerful in thoseearly days than marketing.
My first question for you iswhat do you think about when
(01:59):
you're first getting started?
Is it marketing or is itrebooking?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
I agree it is.
For me and how I built mybusiness was a thousand percent
rebooking.
It's much easier to work withwhat you have versus always
trying to go out and find newpotential patients or clients.
Someone said it to me it waslike the best way to get new
work is the current work that'son your desk right.
Having great experiences withthe people who are already your
(02:29):
patients, already your clients,already in your community is
super important.
I think when the pressure is onand it's like I have to like see
patients and clients to pay thebills, it can be more stressful
than fun, and a lot of newphysical therapists who might be
starting practices feel thatpressure.
Everything is all good andsweet when you work for someone
(02:51):
else.
You don't really care if yousee two patients or if you see
20 patients because you'regetting paid a salary right.
So maybe there's incentives ifyou see more people, but there's
not a lot of skin in the game.
But when it's your business andyour baby and you see two
patients, you can grow or payyour bills or pay yourself on
just that amount of value.
(03:11):
So rebooking patients is key andone of the ways that I was able
to do that was by having fun,like creating an environment, a
culture inside the clinic wherepeople have a good time, our
clients, they share stories witheach other.
It's not just like all in aprivate room where it's just
like very isolated and onlyyou're talking with the
therapist who's working with you, so you're talking to other
(03:33):
patients, other clients whomight be going through similar
things, might be going throughsimilar experiences in life.
Our patients, our clients.
They don't go home and talkabout oh, you know, dr Kells did
this mobilization technique onmy ankle or my neck.
They go and say, oh, I had agreat time today, I had fun and
I was able to share certainexperiences with other people
who are going through similarsituations.
(03:53):
And that, I think, is just asvaluable as the skills of being
a physical therapist.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, what about?
I'm just thinking of my ownexperience and, like there's
also certain treatments physicaltherapy, for example, isn't
always the most, I don't know.
Sometimes it's painful is whatI'm trying to say.
The treatment is actuallypainful sometimes but if you can
put the fun in there with that,that takes away some of the
(04:22):
pain, takes away some of thehurt.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, when you can share some of that pain with
others, it also helps on themental side.
A lot of what we do is, yes,it's physical therapy, but
there's so much that we do forour patients mentally as well.
I can tell you hundreds of guys, girls, kids who've cried on
our table because of usreleasing things that not just
affect their musculoskeletalsystem, but also what's going on
(04:46):
mentally for them trauma.
So, yeah, it's definitelyimportant to tap into that and
know that again, things may bepainful.
How can we ease that pain forour patients and our clients and
community?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
What makes a practitioner that is good at
what you're talking about makingthat environment fun, offering
the treatment, but also gettingpeople back in the door.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I think that's a great question and it's funny
that you asked this because Iwas actually going to put a poll
on Instagram about it, so I'mgoing to do it on this podcast
live Awesome.
So for any physical therapistlistening, I need you to answer
this question who is the betterphysical therapist?
Physical therapist A you have apatient with shoulder pain.
You get them better in fivevisits.
(05:26):
They leave the office and nevercome back.
They had a great experience,they're healed and they have
positive things to say abouttheir time there.
That's physical therapist A.
Physical therapist B same issue.
That person stays with you for25 visits.
They also have an awesomeexperience.
Their plan of care was a lotlonger.
It may have taken a little bitlonger to get there, but they
(05:49):
were able to 5X the amount ofvisits that that person came
into the office.
Who do most people think is thebetter physical therapist?
So I want to get that answer.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Can I guess?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, I would love for you to guess.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
All right, and why I'm really stepping into the
dark here.
Answer.
Can I guess?
Yeah, I would love for you toguess all right.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So, and, and why?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
and why right?
I'm really stepping in the darkhere, kevin but I'm gonna do it
.
I'm gonna do it, take a leap offaith I think the the most
obvious answer might be the b,the, the 25, because if you just
think about it from a businessperspective, like just money,
you got 25 visits versus fivevisits.
So maybe that's the way you'rethinking about it, that you're
(06:26):
going to get more revenue with25 visits.
But I'm actually going to say abecause I think a is gonna and
I think I'm a in the clinicsthat I go to, because what I do
is they fix my problem, and thenI won't shut up about it.
I tell everybody you have to goto this clinic, you have to go
(06:47):
visit whoever.
I thought like they totallyfixed my shoulder.
So that's my, that's mynon-clinic owner,
non-practitioner, just sort ofin your world as I am.
Answer.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So I'm inclined to choose physical therapist B, and
for a multitude of reasons.
So the classic answer in ourworld is it depends, right?
So that's the classic physicaltherapy answer.
But for, as a practice owner,building equity with people over
(07:22):
time is so valuable.
And not to say that you can'tbuild some equity in five visits
, but the personal connectionthat you have over 25 visits at
that point you're friends, youknow, and you're like homies.
You know you want to get drinkswith your physical therapist
after I don't indulge that,please, anyone don't do that but
(07:44):
the equity that you built withthem.
Another saying that I alwaystell my team is for every one
patient that you have, thatshould lead to two or three more
patients just from giving thema great experience, right?
Yeah, and I think, specifically, a lot of newer physical
therapists associate physicaltherapy with pain relief.
And yes, we can reduce pain inthe first four to five visits.
(08:04):
But we're not just pain reliefdoctors, right, you can get that
through Tylenol, you can getthat through medicine.
What we're trying to helppeople do is move more
efficiently, build strength,build endurance and reduce the
rate of re-injury, and I justthink it's very hard to achieve
that as a clinician in only fivevisits.
I think we can definitely getrid of pain in five visits.
(08:26):
But then doing the other things, I think that takes a little
bit more time and a little bitmore equity.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm going to keep on this and caveat my answer.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Let's do it I don't like to not get a good grade,
but I notice when I'm hearingyou talk about the 25 sessions
that I'm maybe somewhere in themiddle because I'll do the five
or whatever, where I get betterfor that issue or that round,
and then I go back because itgets aggravated again or because
I push a little too hard andwhatever happens happens Right.
(08:56):
So I think it might be likesome version of a hybrid between
those two, where I am gettingmy problem solved and then I do
get back, problem solved andthen I do get back in the gym
and I do get back into myactivities.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Um, but then life happens and then I need to go
back but but what you hit onsomething there you said, things
pop up and they come back,right.
So that, I think, goes a littlebit to my point where we want
to help people to get to thepoint where these things don't
come back.
I think we leave a lot on thetable when we discharge five
visits because, again, buildingthe strength, building their
(09:29):
endurance, building the mobilitypatterns, teaching people how
to, basically relearning how tomove, so that these things don't
come back, right?
I think that is a key piece andit just it doesn't get spoken
about to patients enough fromphysical therapists.
I think owners think about that,or maybe not every owner thinks
about it, but I would envisionpeople who've been practicing
(09:51):
for a longer time think aboutthat because they have had
patients who they've seen infive visits who've come back for
the same injuries.
So it's like, hey, listen, Iknow your pain is diminished,
you have zero pain right now,but I'm still seeing these one
or two factors that for me, as askilled clinician, I think can
lead to re-injury.
Let's work another five to sixsessions specifically on this so
(10:14):
that these things don't comeback, and then maybe if you need
to come back, you know, once amonth, once every three weeks,
as a little check-in to makesure that these things aren't
coming back.
We can do that.
It's having those conversationswith patients.
That I think is super helpful,super fruitful, and I just don't
think enough physicaltherapists are actually having
this sit down right at the endof a session.
(10:35):
There's a lot of hidden gems injust communication with our
patients and our communities.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, I think it applies to all the disciplines
that would be listening to thisas well, hey there, christina,
here Just a quick moment toshare that this episode is
brought to you by Jane.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
We know how much heart you put into building a
practice you're proud of, andthat's why we're here to make
things like scheduling, chartingand payments run a little
smoother.
If you'd like to take a peekhead to janeapp forward, slash
pricing, because we love a goodbonus don't forget to use the
code radiofrontdask for aone-month grace period.
Okay, I'll keep it short andsweet.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Back to the episode.
This sort of brings me tothinking about the resource that
you created for us yourplaybook, if you will.
I just love it so much.
There's so many great tips thatyou gave to people and we'll
link that in the show notes foreverybody who's listening.
But the thing I want to talkabout that's related to this
conversation is in it you sayrealize that you drive the bus,
and this is something that Italked to our co-founder and
(11:32):
co-CEO, allie.
A lot about is like how that'swhat makes a good practitioner
is realizing and havingstrategies for actually driving
the bus with patients.
In her case, she feels itbecause she has three kids and
you know she's like if you giveme exercises to take home, I'm
not going to do them.
If you rebook me, I'll come andwe'll do them.
So she's making a prettyprovocative point that like,
(11:55):
literally the course of like,finding the health that you're
seeking is only throughrebooking in some cases.
But I wonder what you thinkabout that.
Can you say more on what youput into the playbook about the
practitioner really driving thebus?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, so I'll give another.
For instance, let's just sayyou're a patient and you go to a
physical therapist and you havelow back pain.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I do have that you do Most people do.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And you're like.
The therapist asks well, whatdo you want to do today?
Yeah, how does that make youfeel as a patient?
Like I'm the patient I'm comingto see you.
Aren't you supposed to tell mewhat to do?
And that is tragic, that is atravesty.
No physical therapist should be,in my opinion, should be
letting the patient drive thebus.
When it comes to treatments,the physical therapist should
(12:45):
come prepared with a plan everysingle time Eval, follow-up,
progress note, discharge, visitevery single time you should
have a plan and the patient maycome in and say oh well, I was
coming in from my bag, but myknee hurts today, okay, revert,
different plan, right.
But always have something inmind and again, I think this is
(13:06):
a lot with the newer physicaltherapists it's these
patient-led treatments, askingthe patient what they want to do
today.
And, yes, the patient should beinvolved.
It's a team, but every team hasa captain and the physical
therapist needs to be thatcaptain driving the bus.
As skilled physical therapists,skilled medical professionals,
(13:26):
we need to be captains of theplans of care and I think too
many people are being bystandersto that plan of care versus
driving that bus.
But you also touched base onhome exercises, and I think that
that is also a very importanttopic.
A lot of people needaccountability, and that again
(13:49):
goes back to the five visits orthe 25 visits.
Everyone on earth can look upon YouTube exercises for low
back pain.
That information is there.
Everyone on earth can look upexercises on YouTube for how to
rehab an ankle injury.
That information is there.
Are they doing it?
Is the question right?
(14:10):
So humans need accountability,right?
There's so many people who sayI just need, I need to have it
on my schedule, I need to showup and I need someone expecting
me to be there for me to do that.
There's so many people who fallinto that category and those
are the majority of people whoare coming into the offices, the
people who can do it on theirown.
They are.
They're not coming into ouroffices, right?
(14:32):
So I think understanding thatis super vital.
Like if someone's coming intoyour office looking for you, for
your help, help them direct thebus, give them a full plan and
if they want to deviate fromthat plan, educate them on why
they shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Is there anything else that's important to what
you said at the beginning?
Leveraging who's already withyou, like tactical things, like
how someone would set up theirschedule.
Or do you have to worry aboutthat in New York City?
Like offering appointments inthe evenings and the weekends.
Is there other things like thatthat matter?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, a thousand percent.
There's some people who arecurrently on your schedule right
now who are super connectorsRight and those are people that
can connect you to 10, 12 newpatients Right.
There's people on your scheduleright now who are mild
connectors, who can connect youto two to five new patients the
patients that you have.
(15:29):
That's your lifeline.
It's so much harder and ittakes so much more money and
effort to get new patients inthe door versus nurturing the
patients that you currently have.
Make them feel whole, make themfeel at home, make them feel
that they're the most importantvisit of the day and I guarantee
you'll start to have morevisits on your schedule.
(15:51):
You mentioned marketing.
Marketing is just a lot ofspent money.
You know you got to spend moneyon a coordinator, you got to
spend money on ads, you got tospend money on SEO, and that's a
lot of resources out the door.
So you want to make sure thathome base is sort of fulfilled
first and that's just by makingsure that again you're giving a
(16:11):
kick ass service to the peopleyou already have, because your
clinics aren't just physicaltherapy clinics.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
You offer all kinds of services, so could you talk
about the role of theseadditional services that you
offer and how you think thatplays into this idea of getting
people back in?
Speaker 1 (16:31):
So when I started Fit Club, it was never with the
idea of just being a physicaltherapy clinic.
I always wanted to help peoplebridge that gap between physical
therapy and fitness.
And as we started to grow andgrow and grow again, I was
tapping into my patients and thecommunities that we lived in.
Being in the communities, beingin the groups on Facebook hey,
(16:53):
I really wish we had a pelvicfloor physical therapist here in
this neighborhood.
Like, there's so many youngfamilies here Really wish that
we had kids fitness classesright.
So being in tune to thecommunities is important,
because then you hear certainpeople say the same things over
and over and, over and overagain and you just think like,
hey, I have those skills, thisis something that I'm passionate
(17:14):
about, this is something that Ilike doing and this is a need
for my community.
Let's match that passion withthe need.
So that's how a lot of theservices that we provide that's
how they were born was bylistening to our community and
also understanding my innatestrengths and the strengths of
my team, which we outlined inthat playbook.
(17:34):
There it's not work, it's fun.
And again, when you're havingfun, so are your patients,
because, yeah, physical therapyis a part of life.
Not everyone's going to be hurtfor their entire life, but
people want to be fit andhealthy for their entire life.
And again, I don't want to leaveanything on the table by just
(17:55):
offering them a portion of whatI can really offer them in their
full lifespan.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, you also have a corporate wellness program.
Can you describe that a littlebit?
Really offer them in their fulllifespan?
Yeah, you also have a corporatewellness program.
Can you describe that a littlebit?
I think it's a little bitdifferent than what we're
talking about here.
How did you decide on that oneand what is it structured like?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah.
So again, just knowing thenature of New York City, how
many different businesses are inour quote unquote playground,
and also knowing the macroenvironment specifically after
COVID, businesses started to puta bigger emphasis on employee
wellness, making sure that theiremployees were healthy, for me
(18:35):
it was low hanging fruit to comeup with different programs,
whether it was on-site yoga,on-site health fairs, ergonomic
setup, personal training incertain offices that have gyms.
It was, again just knowing NewYork City and the amount of
businesses that are there andthe amount of profit that they
(18:56):
have, and knowing how budgetswork, I know they're allocating
a certain amount of funds forthe health and wellness of their
employees.
So once that became moreapparent to me, it just made
complete sense to also servicethat community.
Another note is, again, theseclients and employees are the
ones with the health insuranceright.
(19:16):
So it's just like a lot offactors that just like made
complete sense for me.
Again, I don't want to leaveanything on the table.
It is so hard to grow abusiness in New York City and
the whole build it and they willcome is dead Like no one's
coming if you don't promoteyourself, change, evolve.
Mcdonald's would have been dead.
Apple would have is dead, likeno one's coming.
(19:36):
If you don't promote yourself,change, evolve.
Mcdonald's would have been dead.
Apple would have been dead.
All of these companies wouldhave been dead if they didn't
change and evolve with the times.
So for me, it was again superimportant to be nimble and able
to move where the trends weremoving.
So corporate wellness is a partof that.
We've been able to work withsome financial service companies
(19:57):
and it's been really fruitful.
They've gotten a ton of valuefrom a wellness perspective,
from a reduction in burnout andimproving employee satisfaction,
and we've been able to meetmore people, help more people
and get paid for the servicesthat we've been able to provide
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So let's just get a little bit more broad, help more
people and get paid for theservices that we've been able to
provide Very cool.
So let's just get a little bitmore broad and just talk about
the industry in general.
This is just like an open endedquestion.
I don't have any idea whereyou're going to go with it, but
I just wonder how do you see theindustry evolving from here,
and are there any trends justgenerally in healthcare that you
think people would beinterested in?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
in healthcare that you think people would be
interested in.
I think we're in a unique time.
I'll say it that way.
I think there's a lot of bigplayers out there who are at
this point so big they're almostlike unstoppable, and that is a
good and bad thing for me.
(20:54):
I'll explain why.
I think that that's goodbecause they're not going to be
able to win in the customerservice, the quality, the
experience, because it's justmanufactured at this point.
It's cookie cutter.
It's every patient with thispoint it's cookie cutter.
It's every patient with thisgets that.
Every patient with this getsthat.
And it's patients are more of anumber than an individual right
(21:16):
, but there's a lot of moneysupporting them, a lot of
private equity supporting thesecompanies.
So a lot of smaller businessesare feeling that pressure of
having to make rent, makepayroll, and it's tough because
those are the ones who arereally trying to win at the
quality game versus the quantitygame.
I unfortunately see the bigguys just getting bigger and
(21:40):
bigger and bigger because theycan withstand losses for longer
periods of time, other than thesmaller mom-and-pop shops.
So I think that will continue,but I do think the smaller mom
and pop shops that can withstandthis sort of turbulent time and
make it through to the otherside, will have a real, unique
opportunity to grow to levelsthat they never thought was
(22:03):
possible.
My hope and dreams are that thesmaller companies that are
providing kick-ass services makeit through this tough time For
anyone listening who is feelingthe pressure.
(22:23):
My wish and hopes for you isjust to keep going.
Don't stop.
You never know when you'reright on the other side of a
breakthrough.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Thank you so much for being here, Kellen, I mean this
has been amazing.
You've given us so manyinsights for our listeners, so
it's been great having you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Thank you for having me and again check out that
playbook.
There's a bunch of free,helpful tips and tricks for all
therapists out there.
Make sure you check that out.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you for the plug.
I was supposed to do that.
Do my job for me.
I love it.
Thanks for tuning in to RadioFront Desk.
If you found this episodehelpful, it would mean so much
to me if you gave it a ratingand leave a review letting me
know what you think.
And if you're a fan, you cansubscribe to Radio Front Desk on
Apple Music, spotify andwherever you get your podcasts.
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