July 16, 2025 • 14 mins
What if your biggest business challenge wasn’t logistical, but emotional? In this episode of Radio Front Desk, financial therapist Aseel El-Baba sits down with Denzil to unpack the emotional and psychological roots of our money decisions, especially in the early stages of private practice.
She invites new health and wellness practitioners to rethink budgeting, paying themselves, and why money has more meaning than what’s on paper.
Whether you’re launching your first clinic or just beginning to charge for your time, this episode offers a refreshing and compassionate approach to building financial confidence.
What You’ll Learn
- The hidden emotional stories that shape how we earn, spend, and save
- Actionable tips for managing money in the first year of private practice
- How to separate your personal worth from your bank balance
Guest Bio
Aseel El-Baba is a visionary financial therapist, speaker, and founder of Holistic Optimal Wealth. Using her background in psychology and financial planning on Toronto’s iconic Bay Street, she helps individuals heal financial anxiety and transform their relationship with money. Through a blend of modern psychology and ancient wisdom, Aseel empowers others to see money as a tool for healing, self-actualization, and sustainable change. A sought-after speaker, she captivates audiences with her empathy, storytelling, and insight.
Resources mentioned
- Holistic Optimal Wealth - website
- Aseel El-Baba on LinkedIn
- Holistic Optimal Wealth - Instagram
- Aseel’s Playbook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
When it comes to money, we think we're dealing
with numbers, Rates, invoices,overhead.
You know the deal, but moreoften than not we're actually
dealing with feelings Scarcity,guilt, shame, avoidance and
sometimes hope.
And when you're starting apractice in health and wellness,
(00:24):
those feelings show up at fullvolume Because suddenly you're
not just a practitioner, you'realso the accountant, the
salesperson and the CEO.
You have to put a price on yourtime, talk about money with
clients and face your ownbeliefs about what you're worth.
It's vulnerable, it's a mirror,and the better you understand
(00:46):
what it's reflecting, the moreconfident you become.
Today, we're joined by someonewho helps people do just that.
Her name is Asil Elbaba.
She's a financial therapist andthis is how she got here.
Got here.
(01:10):
Aseel's career started where alot of traditional finance
careers do, in a sleek glasstower on Bay Street, Toronto's
version of Wall Street.
She was a financial advisorworking with high net worth
clients, people who, on paper,had it all together.
Then came a conversation thatshifted everything for her.
One of her clients was ahigh-profile executive, someone
you'd expect to have it allfigured out, but behind closed
(01:32):
doors.
Things were falling apart.
His finances were so strainedhe was preparing to downsize his
home.
He wasn't looking forward toretirement, he was afraid of it.
And as they talked it becameclear this wasn't really about
numbers.
It was about family history,generational pressure and
(01:53):
emotional blind spots.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I was very intrigued and curious to understand what
was happening and I wanted todig deeper into the story and I
I took his permission.
I'm like can I please probe tounderstand more about what's
happening here, because if Idon't, you'll end up in my
office in another five yearsneeding to refine us again.
So we started exploring hischildhood and he uncovered that
(02:21):
he grew up with a father fromthe post-depression era and his
father had a very stingyrelationship with money, which
created such tension in theirrelationship and eventually
estranged him.
So he promised himself that bythe time he is going to be a
father he's not going to repeatthese patterns.
But what he ended up doing isgoing to be other extreme and
(02:42):
became what I now understandconsidered financial enabling.
So he continuously supportedhis adult children without any
financial boundaries, withoutany understanding of the
consequences it will have on hislife, simply because he was
acting from that space of traumaand he jeopardized his own
financial health as a result,that conversation stayed with
(03:05):
Aseel long after thespreadsheets were closed, so
much so that when he left heroffice, she went straight to
Google and typed how to become atherapist in Toronto.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
If you've never heard of financial therapy, you're
not alone.
It's a relatively new fieldthat sits at the intersection of
psychology and personal finance, but once you hear how it works
, it makes perfect sense,especially if you've ever
avoided looking at your bankaccount or felt weird about
raising your rates.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
When I tell people I'm a financial therapist, their
first reaction would be, oh, mywife or husband needs that.
But then they pause and they'relike, but wait, what does that
really do?
Needs that?
But then they pause and they'relike, but wait, what does that
really do?
So a very common question,given that this particular title
is relatively still new, butit's about addressing how
clients feel, behave, think andcommunicate with money.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Aseel explains it using Dr Bruce Perry's model
regulate, relate, reason.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Most financial advice focuses on the reason part
Budgets, investments, taxstrategy but few people talk
about regulation how to stayemotionally grounded when money
enters the room, and actuallythis is where the Sanarsol
therapist's role is to supportclients in understanding all the
different emotions theyexperience when the topic of
(04:28):
money surfaces in theirday-to-day life.
All these different instancesbring up emotions that we're not
necessarily equipped tounderstand, let alone regulate,
and sometimes, when we're notregulated, we're sent into a
flight or fight response whichhinders our cognitive ability.
(04:48):
So it's not that we're bad withmoney or we're just not good
with it, we're often just notregulated.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's where financial therapy begins,
because when you're dysregulated, your decision-making changes,
your body goes into protectionmode.
You can't reason your waythrough a trigger, and so a seal
helps people notice thosepatterns and gently starts to
untangle them.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
One of the taglines that I came up with in
reflecting on the work that I dois that the relationship you
have with money is a reflectionof the relationship you have
with yourself.
Money is a mirror.
It reflects back to you whatvalues you're living by, what
belief systems and attitudes andmindsets you have about
(05:36):
yourself and the world.
And it's fascinating to to lookat it from a different angle.
I personally grew up in Lebanonand Lebanon remains a very
volatile place and, because ofthe environment that I grew up
in, I grew up witnessing a lotof associations with wealth to
equate, corruption, greed,selfishness, everything you
(05:58):
don't want to be associated with, and there was a lot of almost
virtuousness to hard work, tosacrifice.
It's almost like you're blessedwith having a hard life because
that means you're virtuous andyou're a good person, and I grew
up with that and I took pridein it Even when I explored what
(06:19):
I wanted to be when I grew up.
That and I took pride in iteven when I explored what I
wanted to be when I grew up.
That question, the infamousquestion for me was always about
like working in charity,working in non-profits, and I
felt that's the path to go tocontinue being virtuous and a
kind-hearted person who caresnot just about myself but the
world at large.
And money constantlycontradicted these values.
(06:42):
And I remember I was in acompetition at one point and I
was being asked what would yourather have, a big wallet or a
big heart?
And instantaneously, withouteven having any time to think, I
just answered obviously a bigheart.
And now, in hindsight, I wouldsay both, absolutely both, and I
don't see them as competingforces anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
That mirror metaphor really resonates with me and I
think for many of you listeningit'll hit home.
But what if you're too scaredto look?
That's why I love Aseel'sapproach.
She starts with play, humor,curiosity, not to minimize the
issue but to make it feel alittle more tolerable.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The very first thing is awareness, and for that I
sometimes ask fun questions tohelp Koreans start that
self-discovery journey.
And some of these questionscould be like if your money
could talk, what would it say Ifyou had a relationship with
money?
What status would it be Ifthere's a song or a book or a
(07:48):
movie title that represents arelationship with money?
What is it?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I love that frame because it takes the pressure
off.
When you stop trying to fix,you make space for noticing, and
when you notice your patterns,you start to get choices.
What Asil learned and nowteaches is that those early
stories do shape how we spend,save and earn, but they don't
define us.
So once you start spotting thepatterns, you get to decide do I
(08:15):
stick with them or trysomething new?
One of the first things a SEALteaches is knowing your real
numbers, not your dream income,but your baseline.
That number is your financialGPS, because without it you end
up flying blind and often youstop paying yourself.
According to a SEAL, payingyourself even a small amount
(08:37):
shouldn't feel like a luxury.
It's more of a statement.
It says this business is hereto support me, not just scrape
by.
And when you start payingyourself, something shifts.
You start looking at yourspending in a different light.
Asil talks about drawing thisclear line by asking yourself is
this an investment that helpsme grow or just a coping expense
(08:58):
that makes me feel better inthe moment?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's really important to start discerning the
difference and understand, likewhat emotion is driving this.
I actually customize decisiontrees with my clients, like
here's a decision tree that youcan filter a decision through
and see where it lands andcommon things that are under it
are like is this aligned with myvalues and, if so, what value
(09:22):
is it?
What emotion emotions drivingthis behavior?
Is it within my budget more toidentify the need that this
purchase is, when so fully?
Is there a different way tofulfill that need and which
doesn't involve you spendingmoney?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
she also encourages people to keep it lean, to focus
your resources on what actuallybrings in revenue.
Asil admits she used to chaseevery idea and creative impulse,
but over time she learned thatpassion doesn't always mean
profit and clarity createssustainability.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Get really clear on the revenue generating parts of
your businesses that you need toinvest in.
I am somebody who comes up witha gazillion ideas at once, like
I can literally start an ideabook, and if I was to write
every idea I have in that book,like I'll have at least 10 ideas
every day.
I just keep coming up with them.
(10:16):
Reality is a lot of these ideaswere either passion driven or
creative driven, but notnecessarily revenue driven, and
a lot of the times I wastedmoney.
So if I was to look back andget really clear, at least so
that I can build a steady incomeand then from the additional
(10:36):
revenues that I was making, Ican certainly reinvest in the
business and maybe go after someof these small creative ideas
that still matter to me.
It just feels like a betterapproach because you reduce
financial strain from thebeginning and give yourself a
longer runway to grow yourbusiness, which minimizes
financial regret and debtaccumulation, especially when
you're starting.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
She also teaches clients to watch for their
spending.
Kryptonite For some it's a newsoftware, for others it's
courses, planners or coachingpackages the things that feel
productive but might just beemotionally comforting.
The trick isn't to avoid thementirely, but to pause and ask
is this moving me forward orjust easing my anxiety?
And if you've made a decisionyou regret, let it go.
(11:20):
That's what she calls regretresidue.
Learn from it, but don't let itcloud your next choice.
One last practice a CEOrecommends Rename your accounts.
Debt becomes past support andyour emergency fund becomes your
peace of mind fund.
It sounds small, but languagematters and the way you label
your money shapes how you engagewith it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
This woman called Barry Thesler who's a pioneer in
financial therapy and she wrotea great book called the Art of
Money, which is one of the booksthat first helped me further
understand my role as afinancial therapist when I made
that decision.
And she came up with this thingwhere you rename all the
different expenses on atraditional budget, like a
(12:03):
mortgage and tax and studentloan, visa debt and all these
different names.
Just looking at it, you know, Ican feel my body feeling
constricted or my heart ratepacing faster because there's
certain connotation associatedwith these things.
So they're liberating ourselvesby reclaiming.
How we refer and relate tothese symptoms is a mindset
(12:25):
shift in itself.
So I had a client who was goingthrough a transition phase where
she had about a $1,000 deficiton a monthly basis, projected
for at least a year.
So looking at her savingsaccount dwindle.
I'm just going to give anarbitrary number.
Let's say she had $30,000 inher account.
So going from 30 to 29 to 28 to27,000 to $28,000 to $27,000 on
(12:49):
one basis was extremelyanxiety-inducing.
Saying you're saving this windowobviously creates that
emotional response.
But what if we open a newaccount and this account now is
called your bridging ortransitory account or whatever,
and put in it the $12,K that youneed for this year and now take
the money from that, knowingthat this is what the intentions
(13:12):
of this account was.
Automatically that released allthe anxiety that was wrapped up
in.
I'm spending my savings and atthe end of the day, we give
power to how we refer to thesethings, and a lot of people have
anxiety from spending theirsavings.
That's what savings are for.
You just have to redefine yourrelationship with it, but also
(13:33):
redefine the intentions you hadto drop them there to begin with
what I learned from a seal isthat we don't have to fix
everything overnight.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
We just have to be willing to look to notice the
patterns, to make small,intentional changes, because
when you start a practice,you're not just building a
business.
You're standing in front of amirror, so what do you want it
to reflect?
Big thanks to Asil Elbaba forthe insights in today's episode.
(14:04):
You can learn more about herwork and explore the reflection
questions she shares withclients in the show notes.
When it comes to money, we think we're dealing
with numbers, Rates, invoices,overhead.
You know the deal, but moreoften than not we're actually
dealing with feelings Scarcity,guilt, shame, avoidance and
sometimes hope.
And when you're starting apractice in health and wellness,
(00:24):
those feelings show up at fullvolume Because suddenly you're
not just a practitioner, you'realso the accountant, the
salesperson and the CEO.
You have to put a price on yourtime, talk about money with
clients and face your ownbeliefs about what you're worth.
It's vulnerable, it's a mirror,and the better you understand
(00:46):
what it's reflecting, the moreconfident you become.
Today, we're joined by someonewho helps people do just that.
Her name is Asil Elbaba.
She's a financial therapist andthis is how she got here.
Got here.
(01:10):
Aseel's career started where alot of traditional finance
careers do, in a sleek glasstower on Bay Street, Toronto's
version of Wall Street.
She was a financial advisorworking with high net worth
clients, people who, on paper,had it all together.
Then came a conversation thatshifted everything for her.
One of her clients was ahigh-profile executive, someone
you'd expect to have it allfigured out, but behind closed
(01:32):
doors.
Things were falling apart.
His finances were so strainedhe was preparing to downsize his
home.
He wasn't looking forward toretirement, he was afraid of it.
And as they talked it becameclear this wasn't really about
numbers.
It was about family history,generational pressure and
(01:53):
emotional blind spots.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I was very intrigued and curious to understand what
was happening and I wanted todig deeper into the story and I
I took his permission.
I'm like can I please probe tounderstand more about what's
happening here, because if Idon't, you'll end up in my
office in another five yearsneeding to refine us again.
So we started exploring hischildhood and he uncovered that
(02:21):
he grew up with a father fromthe post-depression era and his
father had a very stingyrelationship with money, which
created such tension in theirrelationship and eventually
estranged him.
So he promised himself that bythe time he is going to be a
father he's not going to repeatthese patterns.
But what he ended up doing isgoing to be other extreme and
(02:42):
became what I now understandconsidered financial enabling.
So he continuously supportedhis adult children without any
financial boundaries, withoutany understanding of the
consequences it will have on hislife, simply because he was
acting from that space of traumaand he jeopardized his own
financial health as a result,that conversation stayed with
(03:05):
Aseel long after thespreadsheets were closed, so
much so that when he left heroffice, she went straight to
Google and typed how to become atherapist in Toronto.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
If you've never heard of financial therapy, you're
not alone.
It's a relatively new fieldthat sits at the intersection of
psychology and personal finance, but once you hear how it works
, it makes perfect sense,especially if you've ever
avoided looking at your bankaccount or felt weird about
raising your rates.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
When I tell people I'm a financial therapist, their
first reaction would be, oh, mywife or husband needs that.
But then they pause and they'relike, but wait, what does that
really do?
Needs that?
But then they pause and they'relike, but wait, what does that
really do?
So a very common question,given that this particular title
is relatively still new, butit's about addressing how
clients feel, behave, think andcommunicate with money.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Aseel explains it using Dr Bruce Perry's model
regulate, relate, reason.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Most financial advice focuses on the reason part
Budgets, investments, taxstrategy but few people talk
about regulation how to stayemotionally grounded when money
enters the room, and actuallythis is where the Sanarsol
therapist's role is to supportclients in understanding all the
different emotions theyexperience when the topic of
(04:28):
money surfaces in theirday-to-day life.
All these different instancesbring up emotions that we're not
necessarily equipped tounderstand, let alone regulate,
and sometimes, when we're notregulated, we're sent into a
flight or fight response whichhinders our cognitive ability.
(04:48):
So it's not that we're bad withmoney or we're just not good
with it, we're often just notregulated.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
That's where financial therapy begins,
because when you're dysregulated, your decision-making changes,
your body goes into protectionmode.
You can't reason your waythrough a trigger, and so a seal
helps people notice thosepatterns and gently starts to
untangle them.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
One of the taglines that I came up with in
reflecting on the work that I dois that the relationship you
have with money is a reflectionof the relationship you have
with yourself.
Money is a mirror.
It reflects back to you whatvalues you're living by, what
belief systems and attitudes andmindsets you have about
(05:36):
yourself and the world.
And it's fascinating to to lookat it from a different angle.
I personally grew up in Lebanonand Lebanon remains a very
volatile place and, because ofthe environment that I grew up
in, I grew up witnessing a lotof associations with wealth to
equate, corruption, greed,selfishness, everything you
(05:58):
don't want to be associated with, and there was a lot of almost
virtuousness to hard work, tosacrifice.
It's almost like you're blessedwith having a hard life because
that means you're virtuous andyou're a good person, and I grew
up with that and I took pridein it Even when I explored what
(06:19):
I wanted to be when I grew up.
That and I took pride in iteven when I explored what I
wanted to be when I grew up.
That question, the infamousquestion for me was always about
like working in charity,working in non-profits, and I
felt that's the path to go tocontinue being virtuous and a
kind-hearted person who caresnot just about myself but the
world at large.
And money constantlycontradicted these values.
(06:42):
And I remember I was in acompetition at one point and I
was being asked what would yourather have, a big wallet or a
big heart?
And instantaneously, withouteven having any time to think, I
just answered obviously a bigheart.
And now, in hindsight, I wouldsay both, absolutely both, and I
don't see them as competingforces anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
That mirror metaphor really resonates with me and I
think for many of you listeningit'll hit home.
But what if you're too scaredto look?
That's why I love Aseel'sapproach.
She starts with play, humor,curiosity, not to minimize the
issue but to make it feel alittle more tolerable.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
The very first thing is awareness, and for that I
sometimes ask fun questions tohelp Koreans start that
self-discovery journey.
And some of these questionscould be like if your money
could talk, what would it say Ifyou had a relationship with
money?
What status would it be Ifthere's a song or a book or a
(07:48):
movie title that represents arelationship with money?
What is it?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I love that frame because it takes the pressure
off.
When you stop trying to fix,you make space for noticing, and
when you notice your patterns,you start to get choices.
What Asil learned and nowteaches is that those early
stories do shape how we spend,save and earn, but they don't
define us.
So once you start spotting thepatterns, you get to decide do I
(08:15):
stick with them or trysomething new?
One of the first things a SEALteaches is knowing your real
numbers, not your dream income,but your baseline.
That number is your financialGPS, because without it you end
up flying blind and often youstop paying yourself.
According to a SEAL, payingyourself even a small amount
(08:37):
shouldn't feel like a luxury.
It's more of a statement.
It says this business is hereto support me, not just scrape
by.
And when you start payingyourself, something shifts.
You start looking at yourspending in a different light.
Asil talks about drawing thisclear line by asking yourself is
this an investment that helpsme grow or just a coping expense
(08:58):
that makes me feel better inthe moment?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's really important to start discerning the
difference and understand, likewhat emotion is driving this.
I actually customize decisiontrees with my clients, like
here's a decision tree that youcan filter a decision through
and see where it lands andcommon things that are under it
are like is this aligned with myvalues and, if so, what value
(09:22):
is it?
What emotion emotions drivingthis behavior?
Is it within my budget more toidentify the need that this
purchase is, when so fully?
Is there a different way tofulfill that need and which
doesn't involve you spendingmoney?
Speaker 1 (09:37):
she also encourages people to keep it lean, to focus
your resources on what actuallybrings in revenue.
Asil admits she used to chaseevery idea and creative impulse,
but over time she learned thatpassion doesn't always mean
profit and clarity createssustainability.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Get really clear on the revenue generating parts of
your businesses that you need toinvest in.
I am somebody who comes up witha gazillion ideas at once, like
I can literally start an ideabook, and if I was to write
every idea I have in that book,like I'll have at least 10 ideas
every day.
I just keep coming up with them.
(10:16):
Reality is a lot of these ideaswere either passion driven or
creative driven, but notnecessarily revenue driven, and
a lot of the times I wastedmoney.
So if I was to look back andget really clear, at least so
that I can build a steady incomeand then from the additional
(10:36):
revenues that I was making, Ican certainly reinvest in the
business and maybe go after someof these small creative ideas
that still matter to me.
It just feels like a betterapproach because you reduce
financial strain from thebeginning and give yourself a
longer runway to grow yourbusiness, which minimizes
financial regret and debtaccumulation, especially when
you're starting.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
She also teaches clients to watch for their
spending.
Kryptonite For some it's a newsoftware, for others it's
courses, planners or coachingpackages the things that feel
productive but might just beemotionally comforting.
The trick isn't to avoid thementirely, but to pause and ask
is this moving me forward orjust easing my anxiety?
And if you've made a decisionyou regret, let it go.
(11:20):
That's what she calls regretresidue.
Learn from it, but don't let itcloud your next choice.
One last practice a CEOrecommends Rename your accounts.
Debt becomes past support andyour emergency fund becomes your
peace of mind fund.
It sounds small, but languagematters and the way you label
your money shapes how you engagewith it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
This woman called Barry Thesler who's a pioneer in
financial therapy and she wrotea great book called the Art of
Money, which is one of the booksthat first helped me further
understand my role as afinancial therapist when I made
that decision.
And she came up with this thingwhere you rename all the
different expenses on atraditional budget, like a
(12:03):
mortgage and tax and studentloan, visa debt and all these
different names.
Just looking at it, you know, Ican feel my body feeling
constricted or my heart ratepacing faster because there's
certain connotation associatedwith these things.
So they're liberating ourselvesby reclaiming.
How we refer and relate tothese symptoms is a mindset
(12:25):
shift in itself.
So I had a client who was goingthrough a transition phase where
she had about a $1,000 deficiton a monthly basis, projected
for at least a year.
So looking at her savingsaccount dwindle.
I'm just going to give anarbitrary number.
Let's say she had $30,000 inher account.
So going from 30 to 29 to 28 to27,000 to $28,000 to $27,000 on
(12:49):
one basis was extremelyanxiety-inducing.
Saying you're saving this windowobviously creates that
emotional response.
But what if we open a newaccount and this account now is
called your bridging ortransitory account or whatever,
and put in it the $12,K that youneed for this year and now take
the money from that, knowingthat this is what the intentions
(13:12):
of this account was.
Automatically that released allthe anxiety that was wrapped up
in.
I'm spending my savings and atthe end of the day, we give
power to how we refer to thesethings, and a lot of people have
anxiety from spending theirsavings.
That's what savings are for.
You just have to redefine yourrelationship with it, but also
(13:33):
redefine the intentions you hadto drop them there to begin with
what I learned from a seal isthat we don't have to fix
everything overnight.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
We just have to be willing to look to notice the
patterns, to make small,intentional changes, because
when you start a practice,you're not just building a
business.
You're standing in front of amirror, so what do you want it
to reflect?
Big thanks to Asil Elbaba forthe insights in today's episode.
(14:04):
You can learn more about herwork and explore the reflection
questions she shares withclients in the show notes.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.